Calvin Sturdivant, an African American, discusses his 40-year career as a UAW production and skilled trades worker at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Cheryl McQuaid: This is the Lansing Fisher Body historical team. We're at the UAW 602 Union Hall. It is January 13, 2006, approximately 10:20 a.m. We're preparing to interview Calvin Sturdivant. First, we'll acknowledge the rest of the people in the room. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicholson. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Cheryl McQuaid: And Cheryl McQuaid. [0:29] Mr. Sturdivant, would you please state your name and spell your last name for us? Calvin Sturdivant: Calvin E. Sturdivant – S-T-U-R-D-I-V-A-N-T. [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: [0:42] What is your address? Calvin Sturdivant: 1919 Tamarisk Drive, East Lansing, Michigan 48823. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:54] And are you married? Calvin Sturdivant: Yes, I am. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:57] Do you have children? Calvin Sturdivant: I have 4 grown children and 2 grandchildren. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:02] Could you tell us a little bit about your educational background? Calvin Sturdivant: [sigh] I finished high school. I went to LCC and MSU. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:13] And where did you go to high school? Calvin Sturdivant: St. Louis, Missouri, Vashon High School. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:19] And do you have any military service? Calvin Sturdivant: No, I don’t. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:23] And what is your national origin? Calvin Sturdivant: My national origin? African American. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. [1:35] Could you tell us about working at Fisher Body, your memories? Calvin Sturdivant: Yes, I can tell you about working at Fisher Body. Um, [tsk] what specifically, uh, do you want me to talk about? I started working there in 1949. I got hire in in 1949, November 8, 1949. I never will forget the date because I wanted the job real bad. So [sigh] I was working on the night shift, midnight shift, and the man that hired me, the personnel manager said, “Well, Mr. Sturdivant” – uh, this was on a Tuesday. I never will forget it. It was on a Tuesday. He said, “You can, uh, come in tomorrow night.” I said, “No, I'll start tonight. So, uh, I started November 8, 1949. [throat clearing] My job was a, uh, pit cleaner. Well [throat clearing] what’s a pit cleaner? Well, they gave me a little wagon with a little, um, uh, like dipper-like thing, metal. Like a little, like a little dipper about 3 feet long. So I’d go to the end of the line and clean out the bolts and the nuts, you know, anything that was in the line because if we didn’t clean that out, it would jam the line and the line would break. So that was my job. I don’t remember what the pay was per hour, but I think it was like $1.18, which was a lot of money for me. So I kept that job for [sigh] about, oh, 8 or 10 years and then I started moving up, started requesting to move up. Now, it wasn’t easy. [Inaudible 3:53]. Cheryl McQuaid: Mr. Sturdivant, I'm sorry. I jumped the gun. [3:53] Why – you were, you were born and raised in Missouri? Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: No, no, no. [throat clearing] No. No. No. Let's get this straight. Born and raised in Arkansas. Female: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: I'm a Razorback. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: [4:12] When did you come to Michigan? Why did you come to Michigan? Female: [Inaudible 4:16]. Calvin Sturdivant: Well, why did I? W-, I came to Michigan because I was told that the opportunities were better for me because I lived in St. Louis at the time. I finished high school in St. Louis. I did have a job. [phew] I had several jobs. The last job I had in St. Louis, I was working at a shoe factory, and they had a union there, so I knew a little about the unions and what the unions would do for you. So I was living with my cousin, and they were moving to Michigan, and they said, “Uh, you better come out and got with us because you can get a job at Oldsmobile and Fisher Body and a lot of factories there.” So I, uh, thought I'd come, but I, I've always, always said if I had had a good job at that time, a good paying job I would have stayed in St. Louis, but I'm glad now that I didn’t. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter? Marilyn Coulter: [5:18] Uh, Mr. Sturdivant, about how old were you when you came to Michigan? Calvin Sturdivant: I was [phew] 23. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. So you came here and then you h-, you h-, got a job here and, um, how long did it take you to get a job after you got here? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Well it, it took a while to get a meaningful job. It took a, it took a while. When I first came to Michigan, [tsk] I worked as a dishwasher. I worked at a Chinese place and finally I got a job at a place called the Michigan Fertilizer. It's not here anymore. But they were paying good money – 85-95 cents an hour. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So I worked for them off and on for 2 years, but [throat clearing] I had tried to get a job at Fisher Body and Oldsmobile – [most it 6:14] was Fisher and Olds, but it was mostly Fisher… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …for 2 years. I came here the last part of 1947. I came here in, uh, November of 1947, and I can always remember because the next week I remember seeing deer on people’s cars as they drove by. I lived on Main Street. But I was always told, “Well, we're not hiring, uh, we'll keep your application on file. We're not hiring.” Um, I couldn't live off of that, so I had to get me a job somewhere else. And like I said, I got this job at the Michigan Fertilizer. It was a good job, paid well. The problem with that was, uh, it was sort of seasonal. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: Farmers would come get their fertilizer in the spring and in the fall and after that the [sigh] there was a slowdown and I would get laid off, and the second time I got laid off, I said I'm going back to Fisher. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: And that was in September of 1949. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: I came back out and they still had my application on file. The personnel guy was Mr., uh, Smith I believe. And I would come every day. And then he said to me, he says, “Mr. Sturdivant, you don’t have to come every day. Uh, if anything comes up, uh, we'll call you. I didn’t trust him. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: They don’t call me; they got a job open; they don’t call me. No. No way. I wanta be there. So, um, finally after about 2 months, [tsk] um, I walked in and they said to me, “Well, Mr. Sturdivant, I think we got a job for you.” Female: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: And I was one happy guy. Yes, sir. Earl Nicholson: [throat clearing] Earl Nicholson. You said that, um, $1.13 was a lot of money. [8:28] What exactly would $1.13 buy you as, as an hourly wage that when you got paid at the end of the week what would $1.13, what would that, what would that wage buy you? Calvin Sturdivant: First of all, I was a single man. I did not have a lot of expense. Um, $1.13, when you figure it all up at the end of the week, I probably had, I don’t know, $40-$45 whatever. Earl Nicholson: [8:58] Were you working, uh, 11-12 hours a day? Calvin Sturdivant: No, I was not. To begin with, I was only working 8 hours a day… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …but because we were on the night shift like that, we got 10 percent on the night shift. And I'm trying to get to your question. What, what would $1.13 buy for me? Earl Nicholson: [9:23] [Inaudible 9:23] that, that, that paid for your, your rent. That paid for your, your food? Calvin Sturdivant: It paid for my rent, my clothing, my food… Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and, you know, the little, the little entertainment that I did and that was just going to the movie shows and… Earl Nicholson: [9:35] So we're basic-, we're basically talking 9 hours a day over a 5-day period? Calvin Sturdivant: Six hours. I mean 5, 5 – nah, 8 hours. I'm sorry. Earl Nicholson: Eight hours over a 5-day period. Calvin Sturdivant: Eight hours. Earl Nicholson: [9:45] So we're basically talking what $45 a week? Calvin Sturdivant: Something like that. Yeah. Yes, sir. And that was a lot of money for me. Uh, [tsk] I was raised up in a culture where money was very scarce. I was raised up on a farm down in Arkansas as a sharecropper. My dad was a sharecropper. And I had always thought and I’d always made up in my mind – I remember when I was 10 years old, I says, “I'm not gonna stay down here and be a farmer.” I just wasn’t gonna do it and, so, you know, I had, I, I had this determination to get away and – for the job concern. I s-, was saving my, my money because one day I wanted to buy a house. Female: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: I never thought about a car. I just wanted a house, some, some clothing and a house. Female: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: Mr. Sturdivant, um, so you stood and you waited for 2 years to get inside the plant. [10:55] Once you got here, what were your thoughts when you came inside? Calvin Sturdivant: I was glad to be employed. Um, [tsk] initially, uh, that was my main concern, and then after a while, I started looking around, and the job I had, as you probably read in my report I got here, the job that I had I could go from one end of the plant to the other and I was being vigilant ‘cause I didn’t see any black people, not very many, and I'm beginning to wonder, “Now, where are all the black people?” Uh, they had them in certain areas. Marilyn Coulter: [11:41] What areas were those, Sir? Calvin Sturdivant: Wet deck was one and that was the, that was the job that the blacks had on the line. And the wet deck means that those bodies would go by [throat clearing] and they would go by in the water. [tsk] These guys would, would wash off, you know, where they, where they weld, where it was welded. They would wash that off and any place on, on the top, on the side where they were welded. They would wash that off, sort of sand that down, you know, and they did that for 8 hours, and I used to think, “I'm glad I didn’t get hired in that department” [laughter] So. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: And, uh, wet deck [throat clearing], uh, sanitation, and like the job I got hired on, booth cleaning and janitor was the, uh, jobs that black had. Oh, now they, they, they had 1 to 2 more on the line, like I said spraying, uh, that ol’ heavy black material. These guys would be all taped up in coveralls and with a hood on, you know, and spraying that old, heavy black stuff, you know, and that’s a job I didn’t want either. So I began to ask questions. “Well now, why don’t you have some blacks over here? Why aren’t some blacks on the line? Why aren’t some black here? Why aren’t some black here? Why don’t you have some black women in here?” I was bold. The quest-, answers I got was, “Well, uh, I don’t know, Cal. Uh, we, we really don’t know, uh, and w-, well, you know, they can do the job but we, we just don’t know. We just haven’t hired any yet.” So I began to think that, uh, well when I get some time in here, I'm gonna make my move. But I'd go to these, uh, black employees, and I'd tell them – and I'd talk to them and I'd say, “Man, why don’t you try to move up? Why don’t you try to get a job in the skilled trades and w-, why don’t you, why don’t you try to get on the line?” Because at that time, I thought being on the line was better than what they were doing. I'm glad I didn’t even work on the line. [laughter] After a while, I'm glad I didn’t get a job on the line. But they were complacent. They were satisfied with where they were, [you see 14:14], and so then I thought well, I'm just gonna look out for myself. Um, being as active as I was and I sorta had a sort of a, a negative outlook a-, a-, a-, that is people looked at me in a negative way. You know, I didn’t bite my tongue and, uh, I just told 'em what was in my mind when things came up, so that made it difficult for me. The first job that I, um, transfer-, put in a transfer for and I got in the story here, it was in the material control department – only 1 black and I don’t know how he got in there, and he was very exceptional, and his name was [Joyce 15:10] Jones. He was a – I knew him very well because he was a deacon at the church that we attended and, so, I used to talk with him all the time. You probably know him. You probably remember him, don’t you? Yeah. Anyway, he would tell me to transfer, you know, put in a transfer and come over there and, actually, the foreman, he was smiling. I thought he liked me, you know, and so I put in for a transfer to go over there, but my foreman and I, we didn’t have a good relationship. We didn’t have good rapport at all, so he knocked me, and, uh, I, I didn’t get that job. [tsk] He came and told me, “Well, they're not taking anybody over there. They don’t need anybody.” Right. They don’t need anybody because I was going over there. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [16:03] So did you ever get into a department that you did want to get into? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. It took a while. Uh, I never – I, I would put in for an application for different jobs and always turned down. Finally, [sigh] I put in an application for what they call a gas tester. They had these, uh, gas meters at these booths, which I did not have the experience and nobody else had the experience, you know, that, uh, was going for this job. [throat clearing] Anyway, they p-, they, they, they posted a sign. They [stuttering] supposed to post a sigh with these job applications on 'em and, um, this one they didn’t. They kept it out of sight. As I say, if the foreman didn’t want somebody on there and it could be a white person too ‘cause if he didn’t like him, um, he wasn’t gonna get promoted. But anyway, I put in for this job. They were going to seniority. I had more seniority than anybody that had put in for this job. I had the seniority. When management looked and saw ol’ Cal’s got his application in for this job and he’s got more seniority, whoa, they put on brakes. What they did was – this was in 1963. What they did was they held that job open, and they went and got a guy off of the job that had more seniority than I had… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and I guess I didn’t have a leg to stand on, though it was done illegally and we knew it, you know. Everybody knew it was done illegally, but that’s the way they did. They put that guy on the job, and after a while – he’s doing that job about a month but I think his conscious bothered him because he know they used him, so he, he got off that job but – and then the guy that had the job all the time went back on it. So I, I didn’t get a chance to get it. But what I did, I got mad. I went to my typewriter [tapping] and I’d, I’d type out a letter to Walter Reuther… Female: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and I told him about my situation and the situation in general about discrimination and prejudice and all, and I said it was so thick in Fisher Body you could cut it with a knife. [sigh] Believe it or not, I got a letter back from Mr. Reuther, and I wish today I had kept that letter. I don’t know what I've done with that, that letter, but I wish I had kept that letter. Anyway, he – I, I got this letter back from Mr. Reuther that said, “Brother Sturdivant, we are aware of the injustice and all that and what have you.” He said, “we're gonna – I am going to, uh, refer your letter to, um, the regional [tsk] agent, Mr. Patterson in Flint.” He said, “He will get in touch with you.” Well Mr. Patterson never got in touch with me actually until after everything was over, but he did come in to Fisher Body. He came in to Fisher Body, but nobody told me that he was coming. He come – he, he came in to Fisher Body to investigate to see if there was any discrimination. The letter I got from him was he found no discrimination. Naturally, he wasn’t gonna find any because management is gonna take him off to the side, you know, and show him all the good parts and everything. Anyway, um, I never got that job, and so [throat clearing] this is when I really got angry, so then I went to my typewriter and I typed out a letter. I must be young and foolish at that – at those times. [chuckle] I typed out a letter and I lambasted Fisher management, and I particularly lambasted 1 guy, 1 man. His name was Lee Reeves, and he was o-, he was the, uh, assistant engineer, I believe and, and he was prejudiced, and I said in that letter he was so prejudiced until he couldn't see off the end of his nose and I said some, uh, other stuff about him. I came in that night. I called the committeeman. I says, “You take this letter and you read it and then I want you to take it to Labor Relation.” He took it and he read it, and his face turned red and, uh, he took it on to Labor Relation. I followed him to see if he was going up there. He took it on to Labor Relation. And, uh, the next night I came in, [sigh] I could see the different eyes looking at me, you know, from management [inaudible 21:18]. They wouldn't say anything. They wouldn't bother me. They’d just look, just curious looks, just looking around, and an-, anyway, on that letter, I told them I wanted an answer [who 21:31] in about 3 days, my foreman came to me. He says, “Cal, [inaudible 21:37] go down Labor Relation.” I said, “Why, Bob? Why do I have to go to Labor Relation?” “I don’t know. It's something about a letter you wrote.” Yeah. Okay. I’ll go. I went on to Labor Relation, and the Labor Relation man, named Hunter, I believe, he said, “Cal, uh, we got you down here. You wrote a letter and, uh, you accused one of our, uh, executives of being prejudiced, and, uh, he’s hurt over the fact that you wrote this letter.” I said, “Yeah. I wrote a letter and I called him prejudiced,” and [inaudible 22:16] in the conversation, we got to talking. Male: [Go 22:20]. Calvin Sturdivant: You see, I wrote this letter and, uh, lambasted, uh, one of the company officials. His name was Lee [Reese 22:29] and he was a centen-, a system engineer and he and, uh, my foreman were good friends, so he was, uh, instrumental in keeping blacks and other people that they didn’t want from these jobs. So I wrote this letter accusing him of being prejudiced and some other things I said to him about him on this letter, and, uh, and then I came in to work that night and I called the committeeman and told him to read this letter and take it to Labor Relation, so they could give it to Lee [Reese 23:07] and he did that and I followed him to see if he was gonna take it there because I didn’t know whether he was gonna take that letter there or not because after he read that letter his face kinda turned red a little bit. So the next night when I came in, um, I was the object of a lot of strange stares and, and [inaudible] [treatment 23:33] and everything and I said, “Well, I'm going on about my business and do my job, you know, and nobody’s gonna touch me.” And so it was the next night, I think, when I came in and the foreman said we had to go down to Labor Relation about a letter that I had written and I said, “Yeah, I did write a letter.” And he pretended he didn’t know anything about it and which I knew he did. Those guys would get together and they’d talk things over. I went down there. [throat clearing] The Labor Relation guy started telling me about, uh, there was concern about a letter that I had written to – about Lee [Reese 24:16], one of the company’s, uh, uh, executives, and he was hurt over it and, uh, I jumped angry and told him, I says, “Uh, you got me down here to reprimand me about writing a letter. Get me a committeeman down here because I…” you know, I wasn’t gonna change my mind. I wasn’t going to, uh, [tsk] be afraid or anything like that. But anyway, nothing happened. I didn’t get the committeeman down there and nothing happened. These empty promises that yeah, you'll have a chance to get the job and, uh, I didn’t believe them and, uh, it was true and I didn’t have a chance to get that job and, in fact, I knew I wasn’t gonna get it. After my attitude, I knew I wasn’t gonna get that job. [chuckle] So where to go here – from here? Male: [Inaudible 25:13]. Marilyn Coulter: [25:13] So what happened to you after you – after that incident? Calvin Sturdivant: Well after, after that [throat clearing] – that was in 1963. That was in [tsk] oh, like the fall of 1963, late summer or fall of 1963. Um, I had alwrit-, already written this letter to Walter Reuther. I had gotten a letter back from him, and this was all before this… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: All before this letter to Lee [Reese 25:47], I had written a letter to Walter Reuther telling him about the prejudiced [and all 25:51]. [tsk] So all of this is in conjunction with, uh, uh, me getting a job and [inaudible 26:01] get promoted and trying to e-, eliminate prejudice and, and all. So it was after – about a month after that. Then they – Fisher Body had its first black foreman. That was [Inaudible] [Kelly 26:17]… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and he became a foreman over the – who else [inaudible 26:22]. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Calvin Sturdivant: But in 19, um – it was then that they started – I started seeing blacks going – and women going to other departments and I don’t take any credit for that because I think Uncle Sam was looking over their shoulders, too, at the time saying why don’t you have some black people over here; why don’t you have some women over here, and why don’t you have some Hispanics over here, you know? Marilyn Coulter: [27:02] Because this was after the [inaudible 27:03], yes? Calvin Sturdivant: This was in 1963. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: So we were right in the… Marilyn Coulter: [27:07] Right in, in the middle of it? Calvin Sturdivant: …right in the middle of it. Uh, now the next job I put in for, I had some problems too. This job was a semi-skill job, and this job was a, um, sealer repair. Sealer repair was we had to work with spray guns and flow guns and those big ol’, pr-, big old, uh, pressure pump, uh, Johnstone pumps, the pump sealer and hoses and things like that. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: That was our job. When I put in – I put in for that job [sigh] – the reason I put in for it because they had another guy on there that had less seniority than I had. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So I put in for it and the committeeman, the unions go on 'em, and they had to put me in there, but there were – they were trying to pull a slick trick. They put me in there and then after a month they laid me off. I said, “Why am I getting laid off?” “Well we got too many people in the department. We got to eliminate somebody, and you were the last one in here.” Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 28:34]. Calvin Sturdivant: So okay. Alright. So I went on back out and the next day I came in and I called the committeeman. The committeeman got right on it. The guy that was in there and had less seniority than I had was a white guy. Those white guys didn’t like it. I'm gonna tell you the truth, folks. They didn’t like it. One guy said – well he was a committeeman too – I didn’t hear it, but somebody told me he said, “I just can't see taking a job from a white man and giving it to a black man.” He was a committeeman too. But anyway, um, I got that job. It wasn’t easy. The guys that I worked with, I had problems with them, but I didn’t back down and, you know, things rocked on. Down the road after about 3 or 4 years, um, I began, began to get some, uh, positive feedback from management… Female: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and they were saying things like, “That ol’ Cal, he’s ready to go to work when you ask him to do something.” Because the guy that I was working with, he had 15 children and his excuse was, “Uh, I gotta take it easy. I, I, I got 15 children to take care of. Uh, I'm a old man,” and stuff like that and the foremans didn’t want to hear that. So then they would come and tell me to do a job and I'd just go on and do it, you know, and, and I got, uh, [tsk] some positive reviews and finally the, um, head engineer came to me and said to me he that thought a lot of me. Now he’d been – he was one of the ones 5 years ago or 2 or 3 years ago was trying to block me, one of them was trying to block me, but the, uh, other foreman, my other foremans were telling him, you know, the attitude was changing and maybe it was changing a little bit. I, I won't deny that. Maybe I, maybe I wasn’t so hostile anymore, you know? Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: And so, and, uh, like I say, I got good reports and everything and, and the next job I put in for was in skilled trades. I got that one without any problem. Marilyn Coulter: [31:23] And what trade was that, Sir? Calvin Sturdivant: That was, uh, Jig & Fixture repair. I stayed on that job until I retired. Marilyn Coulter: [31:31] And what y-… Calvin Sturdivant: I was in there for about 20 years. Marilyn Coulter: [31:34] What year did you retire? Calvin Sturdivant: You had to ask that hard question – 1987. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: ’87. Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: 1987. Marilyn Coulter: [31:44] So going into the skilled trades, was there anything in particular that you had to do, any pres-, process that you had to learn to go into skilled trades? Calvin Sturdivant: Uh, I remember one thing. I remember thinking – I says, “Boy, I wished I had learned more about geometry when I was in high school because of the things that it taught, taught, taught me in geometry, I saw a lot of it in, in Jig & Fixture repair. Uh, our job mostly was to – we worked closely with the tool makers and actually they told me that Jig repair was a [tsk] – excuse the expression – was a bastard, uh, uh, department or whatever… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …because it was a offshoot from the Jig – or offshoot from the toolmakers, so we had to, uh, work with metal and stuff and pass stuff like that, you know. What we did was, if you remember working in the plant – excuse me. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 32:49]. Calvin Sturdivant: If you remember working in the plant, they had these, uh, fixtures that, uh, fit on the, uh, trunks and on the tops… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …[inaudible 32:59] put 'em on the [inaudible 32:59], you know. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: [Inaudible 33:01], you know, [inaudible 33:04] the, uh… Marilyn Coulter: Clamps. Calvin Sturdivant: …clamps and different things, you know. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. Calvin Sturdivant: And we had to maintain, you know, we had to maintain those fixtures and things like that and we had to work on the gates. At that time, they had these gates that they put the, uh, metal in, you know? Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So we had to do a lot of shimmying, you know, to make sure that, uh, everything is even. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [33:29] So my question to you is this: Now what year was it that you went into skilled trades? Calvin Sturdivant: 1970. Marilyn Coulter: 1970. So… Calvin Sturdivant: So I was there 17 years. Yeah. Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: [33:38] So if you went in in 1970 and there weren’t – and I take it by 1970 the population had changed; the genders had changed? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. I was the first black that was in Jig repair. I w-, uh, w-, uh – an employee named Willie, um, Sanders was a, was a tool maker. He was the first black in tool making. Now he had been in there a couple years before I got in to Jig repair, but I was the first black in Jig repair. Marilyn Coulter: [34:20] So my question to you is it was difficult before, what was it like going into a trade that was initially predominately – what was that like for you? For going into a trade that was pr-, predominantly, uh, governed by white males? Calvin Sturdivant: [tsk] Well [sigh] I was, um, concerned about getting along with people. I was concerned about that, but I also knew a few guys that were already in Jig & Fixture repair and they welcomed me. These guys welcomed me, the ones that knew me, but now I did have – I, I worked with some that, uh, you know, I felt like that I was gonna have to take a swing at 'em, like [inaudible 35:15], you know, take a swing at people [inaudible 35:17]. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [What 35:19]… Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicholson. [35:21] Uh, we're kinda dancing around this subject just a little bit, but you say when, when you knew the guys that were in Jig repair, are we talking about white guys or black guys? Calvin Sturdivant: W-, white guys. There wasn’t no, eh, eh, eh, there weren’t any black guys. Earl Nicholson: [35:32] So they, they had no problem accepting you? Calvin Sturdivant: No. No. No. You see, I, I was known because I was probably one of the tallest guys in there, you know, so I stood out. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: And, uh, and people knew me and I didn’t, I didn’t know them because my reputation probably was hey, don’t fool with that guy, you know, he, he doesn’t back off. Marilyn Coulter: So… Earl Nicholson: [Inaudible 36:00]. Calvin Sturdivant: I think that was the reputation I had [inaudible 36:02]. Earl Nicholson: [36:02] So people respected you for your… Calvin Sturdivant: I was a nice guy. I was a nice guy. I didn’t bother anybody. Marilyn Coulter: [36:07] So, Mr. Sturdivant, how tall are you? Calvin Sturdivant: Uh, a little over 6’4”, about 6’4-3/4”. Marilyn Coulter: So during your time working there, you had problems with promotions and things with [coughing] your supervisors. [36:26] What about your coworkers over the years? I mean obviously by the time to you got to Jig & Fixture repair you had a good rapport with other people, but what about the other people, other employees? Calvin Sturdivant: I did not have, I did not have a good relationship w-, let's go back to, uh, Jig – let's go back to, uh, Sealer repair. I did not have a good relationship with, uh, the people that I worked with most of the time. Oh, oh, oh, let me change that. Some of the time I did not have a good relationship with them. I can't say most of the time because that wouldn't be fair. But, um, [tsk] I remem-, remember this incident where this guy that I was working with. It was the little guy I was talking about he said he had 15 children and he… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and he had to take it easy when the foreman would come and tell him to do a job, you know, he was tired and all of that and, um, so he and I was in a dispute about something, and so we were going at it hot and heavy and because he was a little guy… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …probably about maybe 5 feet, 5’2”, something like that and didn’t weigh too much, and, uh, I don’t know what he said. He didn’t call me a name or anything like that, but he said something and I had this gun in my hand. It was my flow gun, [chuckle] not a pistol. [chuckle] Boom, I threw it on the, on the table and hit the metal on the table. I said, “I'm tired [banging] of you,” and I started walking toward him, you know. [slapping] He ran out and where we worked was just across the, the, uh, road from the maintenance office and, uh, he ran and then he told, um, Clarence Davis and Clarence Davis and I did not have a good rapport. I mean we really didn’t have it. He, he was the general foreman of the maintenance department. And as soon as, uh, [inaudible 38:49] went in to start telling him that I ch-, he told him I ran him out of there, I chased him out of there and, uh, [tsk] he comes over and he jumps me. “Hey, Cal…” uh, uh, hm, – I can't think of his name now. Um, Joe. “Joe said that you chased him out of here.” I said, “No. He lied.” I says, “Uh, we were arguing, and I started walking toward him and he ran out,” so, uh, then he started telling, “Well you, you guys, you can't be arguing, you, you gotta, you gotta work together, you, you know, you can't have this and you can't, you can't do this and you can't do that,” and I said, “Well, you know, uh, [tsk] I just think you taking his side. You said that, uh – he’s saying I chased him out of here, and you came over here and you jumped me about it.” I said, “Go over there and ask those, uh, those plumbers out there.” I said, “They saw it. Some of them saw it.” So he went out there, and he asked them, and I think 1 or 2 of ‘em told him they didn’t see me chasing him, you know. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So then he called Joe off to the side and he talked with them… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and I'm thinking he didn’t say anything to me. He didn’t take me off to the side and talk with me. He took that guy off to the side and talked… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …so I called the committeeman. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: The committeeman ripped him up and down… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [laughter] Calvin Sturdivant: …for doing that. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So then he got the both of us together and talked. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: The foreman told me, “You, you, you don’t have any business talking to 1 man like that. You know, if you're gonna talk to them, talk to both of them.” So. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [Inaudible 40:51]. Female: This one? Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. [tapping] Female: [Go 40:56]. Calvin Sturdivant: Oh, I was saying that, uh, that made me, that made me feel good that the incident in which I, myself, and a, uh, [tsk] fellow coworker had a little spat, more than a spat and he ran out of the [inaudible 41:17] where we were working and ran over to the office and told the general foreman that I had chased him out of there and, anyway, uh, he came over and he talked to me and, uh, sorta in a harsh tone, you know, and, uh, I talked back and, uh, told him that I had not chased him out of there, and, uh, he was taking his side of it. I said, “Go over and ask those plumbers, those millwrights over there. They, they saw it.” So he went and asked them, and I think some of them told him that, uh, no, I didn’t chase him out of there. Then he took this guy off – coworker off to the side and he talked with him about 10 minutes. They were just talking. So I, I called the committeeman and told him what had happened and that [inaudible 42:10] foreman had called this guy off to the side and was talking to him. I said, “He didn’t, he didn’t call me off and, and, and talk to me.” So the committeeman got right on him, uh, ripped him apart about that [and said you don’t 42:25], you just don’t talk to 1, 1 guy like that when something like this has, has happened, you talk ot both of them.” And then he came and, uh, he talked to both of us like he was supposed to do in the first place. Like I said, that made me feel good, that I knew I had, I had the union backing me, backing me not in, not in a sense that, uh, uh, they were on my side. They just was doing right, doing what was right. That’s, that’s, that’s what it was. And just about, about all of the incidents where I had to call a committeeman, I was convinced that they, you know, wanted to do right and wanted to protect my rights. Earl Nicholson: [43:23] So what, what was – Earl Nicholson – what was the end result of all that? Calvin Sturdivant: The end result was that was we got along pretty good for a while and, uh, it was after this incident that I told you that management started looking at me with a positive eye, you know, that, uh, uh, I wasn’t such a bad guy anymore… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and they when they’d have a job – now this, this, this is what would upset my coworker because he more seniority in that department than I had and they came and handed me the papers to go do a job. Well he did not like that and that’s what they was, that’s what they were doing. That’s what they started doing, you know. Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. [44:26] So was – were they – when they were to come up to hand you, what was, what was his, what was his quality of work compared to yours? Was – were you guys operating on the same level? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. We did the same thing, but he had more experience in there because he had been in for 20 years and I had, uh, I stayed in it for 6 years, so this was like probably my th-, fourth year in there. Earl Nicholson: [44:49] So you guys were operating on the same level basically? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Yeah. Earl Nicholson: Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Um, [tsk] uh, something else I was gonna say and forgot it just that quick. Ugh. Earl Nicholson: [44:59] So, uh, I'd like to say when, when did you start to notice, I guess the word I would use is change, real change… Calvin Sturdivant: S-… Earl Nicholson: …in the factory in terms of racism and sexism? Uh, when, when did you start to see it where, where, where it – where you started seeing more African Americans, more Hispanic Americans, more women, when d-, when – could you put a date on that? Calvin Sturdivant: Well actually to tell you the truth, it was, uh, I was [throat clearing] more concerned with the African American aspect of it and, you know, I wanted everybody to be treated fair, but I know we were treated worse than anybody else in there. Uh, I think it was about [throat clearing] – now 1963 was the first, uh, time they had a black foreman. About 4 months [sigh] – we were early, early in ’64, early in ’64, then they started having blacks on the line in, uh, on production, and, uh, oh… Earl Nicholson: [46:13] Could you tell me [inaudible 46:13]? Calvin Sturdivant: I can't remember. I can't remember this guy’s name, um, Jack, um, [tapping] – I can't remember his name, but he was the second black I remember. Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: Now I can't, I can't nail down those, uh, the times… Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …the dates and all… Earl Nicholson: Right. Calvin Sturdivant: …and I, I'm, I'm just speculating here, you know, because… Earl Nicholson: Right. I mean, you know, uh, I mean, uh, in, in, in general terms, when was the first time that you started noticing a lot of women? Calvin Sturdivant: Uh, it was the mid-60s. Earl Nicholson: [46:45] In the late 60s? Calvin Sturdivant: When I said mid-60s, I'm talking, oh, about ’66, ’67. Earl Nicholson: [46:51] ’66, ’67? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Earl Nicholson: Okay. [Inaudible 46:54]. Calvin Sturdivant: When I started noticing that they started putting women… Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …in the trades and… Earl Nicholson: [Inaudible 47:01]. Calvin Sturdivant: …they began to be foremans. Earl Nicholson: [47:03] And, uh, was there, was there [inaudible 47:04]? Calvin Sturdivant: The, the, the – I can remember this: I remember they – I can remember the first black woman that they hired in Fisher Body. Her name was Velma Dukes. That was in 1953. She was the first black woman they hired and because she was a neighbor of mine ‘cause lived right across the street from me, and she was the very first one [inaudible 47:31], but she didn’t stay there too long because the job that she got was – it was just too much for her. She was a big girl, a big lady and, uh, had to get in the back of those trunks, you know, [inaudible 47:41] wires and things, had to do that for 8 hours, whew. She couldn't take that. She worked about 2 or 3 months and she quit. Earl Nicholson: Okay. [47:53] So, b-, so it was, um, when women were coming in to the factory, did you notice a general change in attitude of all of the male employees in general? Calvin Sturdivant: Well I guess I can't say that, uh, I did. Um… Earl Nicholson: [48:14] Were men still crude to women at that time or [stuttering] were men, were they respectful to the women or…? Calvin Sturdivant: Let me tell you this, um, and this was a white girl, a white lady, they put her on the [sigh] – you know, for a long time they d-, did not have women in the body shop. Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: Let me change that. Yeah. For a long time they did not, did not have women in the body shop, and, uh, so they hired this young, young lady, and she was kind of heavy and, uh, she was [inaudible 49:02] one time [or 49:04] once or twice, uh, she put in the wrong details, and when you do that, um, it's a deadhead. They had to run a deadhead. In other words, if you put – they were running 88 to 98s then, and if you put, uh, material in it that belong on a – 88 materials in it that belongs on a – or 88 – if you put 98… Earl Nicholson: Parts. Calvin Sturdivant: …parts that belong on, uh, for an 88, that’s gonna mess up or vice versa. Earl Nicholson: Right. Calvin Sturdivant: Well she did that once or twice and, uh – now this was in the ’70s because I didn’t get in Jig r-, I was in Jig repair then. This was in the ’70s. So and she had this foreman named, uh – if I called the name, you would know it, but I can't think of his name now [tapping] [inaudible 50:05]. Anyway, I, I think he was prejudiced against women. Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So, uh, she messed up this one particular night and I felt so sorry for her, you know, but I, I could just feel her pain. I knew what she was going through. And I wanted to go and talk to her, but I didn’t know how. I didn’t, I didn’t have the courage and I didn’t know how. I knew that, um, she was downcast and, um, boy, if I just could have gone to her and just patted her on the shoulder or something and told her, you know, you know, keep her chin up and everything and that might would have helped, but I knew what she was going through, and, uh, they fired her that night. Female: Hm. Earl Nicholson: [51:00] So you felt frustrated because you couldn't, you couldn't approach her [inaudible 51:02]. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. I, I wasn’t able to do that. Yeah. I wasn’t able to go to her and, and, and try to console her. [throat clearing] Excuse me. [throat clearing] Earl Nicholson: [51:12] So, um, so, uh, from, from what you know now from all the sexual harassment classes that you’d been through before you retired, can you recall any instances of sexual harassment that you exper-, that, that you witnessed? I'm talking crude comments, men putting their hands on women? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. I remember one incident where this foreman was really upset and this lady was always complaining and she was white and, of course, he was white, but she was always complaining about something, you know, so I think he was real-, this foreman was really upset this night, and, uh, she told – asked him [inaudible 52:09] what am I gonna do with this material and he told her and he said words that he said. I mean you know what I mean what he said to her and she went on and reported him and he was fired that night. Earl Nicholson: Wow! Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. He was fired that night. Earl Nicholson: [52:29] You can't tell us what, uh, what he said? Female: It was bad. Calvin Sturdivant: No. No, I can't tell you what he said. [laughter] Like you know what you can do with it, you know? Female: Mm-hm. Earl Nicholson: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So. So he was fired that night. I was trying to think of an incident where, um, one black lady [sigh] – a lotta, a lotta stuff has escaped my mind now. Uh, I know a black lady that got to be a foreman, but I don’t think, you know, uh, nothing bad happened to her except they just put a lot of pressure on her – because I, I know the lady very well. Female: [53:17] Sandy Coleman? Calvin Sturdivant: You might even know her. You might know, you might – do you… Marilyn Coulter: [53:17] Sandy Coleman? Calvin Sturdivant: No. No. [53:20] Do you know, uh, Thomas? What's her name? [whispering] Uh, [Othressa 53:29]. Marilyn Coulter: [Theresa 43:30] Thomas [inaudible 53:30]. Calvin Sturdivant: [Othessa 53:32] Thomas. Marilyn Coulter: [53:33] She was a supervisor there? Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. She was a supervisor at one time and probably lasted about 6 months. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. ‘Cause was gonna say I know the only ones I knew were Sandy Coleman… Calvin Sturdivant: No. Marilyn Coulter: …and [Joann Pfifer 43:42] in the body shop. Calvin Sturdivant: [Joann Pfifer 53:44]. [53:46] Don’t I remember her? Marilyn Coulter: She was Chris [Pfifer’s 53:47] wife. Chris was a supervisor up in trim. A black complected female in the body shop. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. I remember her. She worked down in the body shop. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: Oh, yeah. I, I've done some work with her too. Yeah. Um, [throat clearing] no, offhand I just can't remember anything that, um, insulting that hap-, happened to black women. It might have happened but, you know, I [inaudible 54:14] except I know that my, my sister was fired because she hit her foreman. [Inaudible 54:26] let's not talk about that. Earl Nicholson: [chuckle] So, okay, one… Calvin Sturdivant: [Let's not talk about that 54:29]. Earl Nicholson: …one other question on, on, uh, this subject for me: [54:33] When’s the first time, uh, that you remember seeing a Mexican? Calvin Sturdivant: When I was first hired in Fisher Body. Earl Nicholson: [54:40] They had – they were hiring Mexicans then? Calvin Sturdivant: They had Mexicans on… Earl Nicholson: I shouldn't say Mexicans. I should say Latinos. Calvin Sturdivant: [54:46] What's the difference? Earl Nicholson: Latinos cover all [inaudible 54:50]… Calvin Sturdivant: Oh, cover all. Earl Nicholson: …all, uh… Calvin Sturdivant: [54:51] Well what about Hispanics? Doesn’t that cover all of 'em? Earl Nicholson: Yes, that, that does too. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well when I, uh, got hired at Fisher Body in 1949, there were, uh, 2, I think 2 or 3 Hispanics [on the] [inaudible 55:09], but they had Hispanics up on the line, production line. They all were together. Now if you want to call that segregation or something I do not know, but they all were in, in, in one area. Earl Nicholson: [55:28] Were they Spanish… Calvin Sturdivant: [Inaudible 55:29]. Earl Nicholson: [55:29] Were they Spanish speaking or English speaking? Calvin Sturdivant: [Inaudible 55:31] they, they spoke both, you know. Earl Nicholson: [Inaudible 55:34]. Calvin Sturdivant: They spoke English and, and Spanish, you know. They speak English when they talk to us and they speak Spanish when the talk to themselves. Earl Nicholson: Okay. [Inaudible 55:41]. Female: Mm-hm. Earl Nicholson: Alright. Now I'd like to, to, to kinda get off of that a little bit unless [inaudible 55:46] any-, anybody else want to [inaudible 5:47] that. [55:50] I wanta, I wanta go back to, uh, like what when I had questioned and ask you before we were recording, um, that you – about – where did you learn to type? Calvin Sturdivant: I typed at home at 1919 Tamarisk Drive, so I didn’t take it in school. Earl Nicholson: Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: I just learned to type and, uh, my daughter helped me and my wife helped me some and, uh, a little typing that I, I, you know, it's m-, mostly self-taught. Earl Nicholson: Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: Uh, now when I was in the LCC, I had to b-, you know, type on the computer, but I had already had a head start in typing at home, you know. Earl Nicholson: I'd like to ask, ask you about the school you attended. [56:30] Now, now like, eh, eh, would you consider the, the school that you attended and the training that you got in 0 through 12 that, that was an empowering experience for you? Calvin Sturdivant: Mm-hm. But if you want to go all the way back to my grade school days… Earl Nicholson: Just briefly. Calvin Sturdivant: …and, and this has a lot to do with what we're talking about, you know, uh, uh, positive things and, you know, and overcoming racism and things. We had a teacher that taught us, who had lived in New Jersey, and, uh, she always told us that “Hey, you can be anything you wanta be and all you gotta do is study.” She insisted that we study. She said, “You got a brain just like anybody else. You study.” And she was the one that taught us and told us about, uh, uh, uh, Marian Anderson and Sojourner Truth and Booker T. Washington and all of those people like that, you know. We were in a high school, the same thing. I went to high school in, uh, St. Louis, [throat clearing] St. Louis, and the principal often told us that, uh, we just had to study… Earl Nicholson: So… Calvin Sturdivant: …which [inaudible 57:50] we just couldn't come to high school and just and, and just slide through because we couldn't do that in society. Earl Nicholson: [57:57] So that when you graduated from high school, you believed that you had all the tools to be successful? Calvin Sturdivant: I believe I had some of the tools that, uh – I had enough of the tools at that time to, um, help me get a good start in life. Earl Nicholson: Alright. [You’ve gotten 58:12]… Calvin Sturdivant: Now, I – when I finished high school, I did not want to go to college. I had, had no thoughts of going to college because I was raised up a poor boy down there in the South and sometimes I didn’t have shoes and clothes and stuff, so I wanted me some clothing and, like I said, and get me a house after a while. I didn’t even think about a car. I didn’t want a car. Earl Nicholson: Well then, you know what, that’s another question I want to ask you. [58:37] When did you get your first car? Calvin Sturdivant: 1955. Pontiac. At that time, th-, at Fisher Body they were making 3 types of automobiles – Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, Pontiac. They were making the 88, 98 and were making [tsk] Pontiac and Chevy convertibles I believe. Marilyn Coulter: Uh, Marilyn Coulter. I wanted to go right back to your education [for 1 minute 59:09]. [59:11] So, um, now do you have a college degree? Calvin Sturdivant: No, I don’t have a college degree. Marilyn Coulter: [59:15] But you just – now did you attend any other college other than LCC? Calvin Sturdivant: MSU. Marilyn Coulter: MSU. Calvin Sturdivant: One term. Marilyn Coulter: Excuse me. [59:24] And did you do this while you were working or…? Calvin Sturdivant: After I retired. Marilyn Coulter: After you retired [you] [inaudible 59:31]. Calvin Sturdivant: After I retired from Fisher Body, the thought hit me, “Well, Cal, what are you gonna do with your life now? You're gonna retire. You’ve been working with Fisher Body for 38 years.” And one day, it was in, uh, I believe it was in May of 1987 and I retired in ’87, the last part of ’87. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: I picked up this newspaper. It was a Detroit newspaper, and the big, glaring headline that had Joe Lewis was celebrating his 50th anniversary when he knocked out Jimmy Braddock to become champion and that hit me because as a kid I remember listening to that fight down in Arkansas and then I started thinking, “Ooh, that that would be something good to write about.” I said, “That was a long time ago,” and I said, “Maybe I got some good stories I can write about, so maybe I, I can start going to school.” And, uh, I didn’t want to go to school. When I told my wife about my thoughts and everything, she said, “Yeah, you, you oughta, you, you [inaudible 1:00:54] enroll in school. So I enrolled in, uh, LCC writing class and, uh, the next day after I retired, I was sitting home and I was watching “The Price is Right,” and it's noontime and I'm supposed to be in class at noontime. “The Price is Right” goes off at noon. [slapping] [Oh, I jumped up 1:01:23]. I had forgotten about I'm supposed to be in school. I jumped up, grabbed my books and everything, and I took off down in my car, you know, and I got down to LCC [inaudible 1:01:37] and I'm embarrassed. I got to go in one of these rooms and all these people are gonna be looking at me – old, tall, gray-headed man walking in there late. My hair wasn’t as gray then, you know. [laughter] So I opened the door and walked in. I wouldn't look at anybody, you know, because I was so embarrassed. I went over and I took my seat and, um, I don’t know what the subject matter was that day, but I remember the professor and, uh, [tsk] he was a substitute for that day, and he said, “Does everybody have a, a s-, a… Male: [1:02:26] A syllabus? Calvin Sturdivant: …syllabus?” [laughter] Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: You got it. A syllabus. I didn’t know what a syllabus was. What are you talking about? Syllabus? So he could see the expression on my face, that, uh, I didn’t know what a syllabus was, but anyway he sent the girl down to the office and there was somebody else that didn’t have one and she got 2. But anyway, to make a long story short, uh, a couple more terms I was in his class, and, uh, he was complimenting me to the rest of the students how well I was writing and, uh, and he just, you know, just pointed me out and [inaudible 1:03:09] patted me on the shoulder and then he said, “I knew him when he first walked into a class one day. He didn’t know what a syllabus was.” [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [1:03:20] So can you tell me, y-, how old were you when you retired? Calvin Sturdivant: I was 63. Marilyn Coulter: [1:03:26] So you went back to college… Calvin Sturdivant: Yes. Marilyn Coulter: …at 63 after working? Calvin Sturdivant: I sure did. Marilyn Coulter: Excellent. Calvin Sturdivant: I went to college. Marilyn Coulter: Excellent. Earl Nicholson: [1:03:31] And, so, it sounds to me like you're enjoying retirement? Calvin Sturdivant: I certainly am. Marilyn Coulter: [1:03:37] Um, Mr., um, Sturdivant… Female: Say your name. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [1:03:42] Can you tell me, um, you had some union activity when you had your grievances, did you have any other activities with the union during your 38 years of, um, employment? Did you – were you active in the union at all? Calvin Sturdivant: I [sigh] was not, you know, as far as, you know, being a committeeman or anything like that. Uh… Marilyn Coulter: [1:04:10] Did you attend any of the meetings? Calvin Sturdivant: Yes. I attended some. I attended some and some I should have attended that I didn’t, because at those times they were giving away, um, uh, prizes for people that, uh, [inaudible 1:04:28] that came. I mean [inaudible 1:04:29] and I remember twice I wasn’t there and I lost out on $100. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [1:04:38] So, well then, back into the plant, do you remember, um – I know you remembered some of the, uh, products that they built and some of the areas. What, what were some of the other environmental-type things that you remember? Just, you know, just during the transition because, uh, between 1946 and 1987, when you retired, the different types of products, the way management styles might have changed, what were some of the things you noticed as far as the environment, the environmental changes at Fisher Body over the years? Calvin Sturdivant: Well [sigh] when I, uh, started working there in 1949, as I said, they were making the Oldsmobile and the Pontiac and Chevy, and they dropped those 2 names after a while and just were making Oldsmobiles. Um, the changes I noticed was they were getting more, um, automatic stuff in there, and, uh, and they started that in [throat clearing] – excuse me. They started that in the late ’50s and ’60s, you know. Um, more and more they were putting, uh, machines in there that were taking jobs of the, of the workers, but you didn’t feel it that much then because it was only few and far between. [1:06:08 ] Um, [tsk] you know – you remember when they used to have, uh, the employees could write – turn in suggestions? You remember that? And I don’t know when they ever stopped that. Marilyn Coulter: They haven’t. Calvin Sturdivant: [1:06:19] They haven’t stopped that? Marilyn Coulter: No. Calvin Sturdivant: Well I used to be very good about turning in suggestions and, uh, they were very good about [tsk] rejecting mine, and I w-, I won some and mostly all was $25 range, you know. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: But I can recall this one time that [tsk] I turned in a suggestion. Uh, management had – they had put, put an area [throat clearing] and it had to do with my job and they put some, um, you know, they put some – after I suggested it, they eliminated some spray guns and, and put up a, a line where, uh, um, they had pumps on the end, you know, and, uh, had spray tanks. Anyway, um, [tsk] I thought this suggestion was worth about $75. So [sigh] they accepted the suggestion and [then they] [inaudible 1:07:31] and, uh, and then they sent me a ch-, a bond for $25, and I took it back to 'em and told 'em I wasn’t gonna take it and told 'em that it was worth more than that, and I told 'em I just wasn’t gonna take it; they can take it and, you know, keep it if they wanted to. S-, so that went on for 3 or 4 months more. They’d call me and wanted me to take it, and I wouldn't take it. I told 'em naw, my suggestion is worth more than s-, $25, at least $75. So, um, finally I was telling my wife about it and she said, “Well, you oughta just go on and take it and so they can close the books on it.” So I did. I took it and, and, uh, the next 3 suggestions that I wrote, they weren’t worth anything. You know that they paid me $25 for each one of those. They was making up for what they knew they were supposed to give me more than they did [inaudible 1:08:46]. Marilyn Coulter: Ooh. Earl Nicholson: Interesting. Marilyn Coulter: Very. [1:08:53] So, um, what did you notice – did you notice anything different over the years through – about supervisory techniques? Calvin Sturdivant: [1:09:08] In what manner are you speaking? Marilyn Coulter: [1:09:11] Well did the, um, the way that managers treated their employees, did they cont-, was it continuous? Was it better? Um, w-, were there any changes? Maybe there was none. That’s just… From when you first [inaudible 1:09:27]. Calvin Sturdivant: Uh, yes. Yes, indeed. Um, I think through the years management got a little more polite… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and, um, in dealing with employees, but what I have always, what I always noticed and maybe you noticed it too [tsk] that when there was a problem, uh, management had with, with a employee, such [as me 1:09:56] – they had a problem with me – management was not gonna come – the foreman was not gonna come by himself; he was always gonna have somebody with 'em… Female: Yeah. Calvin Sturdivant: …and, uh, but, um, [tsk] yeah, I think, you know, through the years, uh, management got a little more civil, absolutely got a little more civil toward, uh… Female: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …people and, and, uh, [tsk] maybe vice versa. Earl Nicholson: Uh, Earl Nicholson here and I know it's getting late in the day and you're, you're probably ready to go, so I just, I just have 1 more, 1 more, uh, area of interest and that would be strikes. Female: [Inaudible 1:10:37]. Earl Nicholson: [1:10:38] Specifically, where you involved in a strike? Calvin Sturdivant: Yes, sir. I certainly was and I remember this long strike we had in 1970. We were on strike for 2 months. We went out on the 14th of September 1970, and the guys were saying, “I’ll see you after Christmas.” [chuckle] Because General Motors was [inaudible 1:11:06] uh, uh, tough times that year and production wasn’t too good. Marilyn Coulter: [1:11:12] Do you remember what you were striking over? Calvin Sturdivant: I – the – they were over, um – no, specifically, no I don’t remember. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. Calvin Sturdivant: Specifically I don’t remember but it had something to do with the cost of living. The cost of living was one of those things, and, uh, pay increase, I think, was the other one. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Calvin Sturdivant: But cost of living was that bugaboo. Marilyn Coulter: [1:11:38] So how did you feel about a strike? How, how did that work for you? Calvin Sturdivant: [Inaudible 1:11:40]. I, uh, I didn’t want to strike. To tell you the truth, I had just moved into East Lansing. I hadn’t just moved. I had been there about 2 years. And, uh, [inaudible 1:12:01] were – and taxes and stuff were pretty high, you know. Well my wife was working. But anyway, uh, [tsk] my job was – I wouldn't call it a job – the group that I was with… Earl Nicholson: [Inaudible 1:12:22]. Marilyn Coulter: [1:12:23] Your picket duty? Calvin Sturdivant: Picket duty. We'd picket out in front of the plant… Female: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: ..and, uh, it was like from 8 to 12 I believe. So the guys got together and made me captain. They said, “Look at ol’ Cal. We're gonna make ol’ big Cal – he, he’s gonna be our captain.” So I was captain of the guard or the gate, so anybody that had to come down to the plant had to see me first, had to talk with me. So I can recall this, uh, young white female, you know, she, she came down, you know, and she, um, had long hair, you know, and it was kinda cool that day. As she was walking, her hair was just flapping on her shoulder, and she says, “I got to go down,” and, uh, “to the office.” I says, um, [tsk] “Lady, you can't go down there unless you have a pass.” I says, “Where you get the pass, you go over to the Union Hall and get one.” So she started, um, [arguing 1:13:35] and I don’t know what all she said and I don’t know what all went on that day, but, um, I don’t know what, uh, everything that was said that day and she, she started calling us thugs. “Uh, you thugs. You just want to, uh, uh, uh – why don’t you rough 'em up, rough me up and get, get your names in the paper!” So one guy says, “Look, lady,” he said, “we don’t have any women wrestlers here, but ol’ big Cal, he’ll take care of you.” And she looked around and she looked up at me. [slapping] She took off. She went over there and got that pass. [laughter] Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicolson. [1:14:11] Was she, uh, was she, uh, m-, was she with management or was she was a union member? Calvin Sturdivant: I don’t know who she was. We all thought she might have been a plant. Female: Mm-hm. Earl Nicholson: Wow. Calvin Sturdivant: Because, eh, eh, eh, they did – they – sometimes they'd put up people to do that, you know, see if you was gonna rough 'em up or, you know, mess with 'em or anything like that. Management would do things like that. Marilyn Coulter: [1:14:31] Um, do you – maybe you remember. Um, on the day that – Marilyn Coulter – when you went on strike, were you working that day? Were you at work when the strike started? Calvin Sturdivant: I worked at night. We worked at night and we were told by our committeeman not to, uh, for lack of a better word, manhandle, uh, um, misuse anything, you know… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …leave everything just like you found it so they won't have any excuse to say you messed up or you destroyed something, you know. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: We were told to whatever we was working with, just put it in place and just l-, leave everything, you know, and like it should be, and that’s what we did. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [1:15:11] So you just left [inaudible 1:15:12]? Calvin Sturdivant: ‘Cause we knew – we felt that that was gonna be a long one. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So it lasted until – I remember it lasted until, um, m-, not Memorial Day. What's that other day? S-, uh, [tsk]… Marilyn Coulter: [1:15:25] Labor Day? Calvin Sturdivant: …Armistice Day. [1:15:26] We used to call it Armistice Day, but it's, uh, um, what do they call it now? Earl Nicholson: [1:15:32] Armistice Day? Calvin Sturdivant: Armistice Day, when – they don’t call that now, but that… Earl Nicholson: It's VE Day [inaudible 1:15:36]. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. It's Veteran’s Day. That’s…. Earl Nicholson: Yeah. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Veteran’s Day. Right. It lasted until then. Marilyn Coulter: [1:15:43] So were you the only member of your family that worked in Fisher Body? Calvin Sturdivant: Oh, no. No. I had, uh [sigh] – my brother worked there and 2 sisters worked there and a son that worked there, but he doesn’t work there anymore. He hasn’t worked there since ’97, his own fault. I don’t want to get into that. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Right. [1:16:07] Um, so as we come to a close here, I was gonna ask you do you remember what you might consider your happiest moment at Fisher Body? Calvin Sturdivant: Well, well I guess the happiest moment was when, when I got hired. That, that would be the happiest. Um, next to that was – one other one was when I was told I was gonna be promoted to the, uh, skilled trades department… Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and I knew I was going in there before I got there, before I went in. I knew it. Marilyn Coulter: [1:17:01] And how did you know it? Calvin Sturdivant: [sigh] Word had circulated that, um, that I was going in there… Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Calvin Sturdivant: …and some of my coworkers knew I was going in there. I tried to play it coy, you know, tried not to be too surprised, you know, but I knew I was going in there. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: And, uh, actually there was a guy, [an old 1:17:24] guy in the office, and I don’t remember his name. He says, “Oh, Cal,” he says, “uh, they oughta take you in there.” He says, “You’ve been on here a long time,” you know, and so that, that was a help too. But I wanta tell you about another thing. Um, [tsk] when I was trying to get into skilled trades, uh, I went to the superintendent of, uh, Jig & Fixture repair and I can't remember his name now. I had talked to him and this was like in, uh, ’69 in the fall of the year, but I went to him and I talked to him about getting, you know, promoted into Jig & Fixture repair. He says, “Oh, Cal,” he says, “uh, uh, we'd be willing to take you over there.” He says, “You can do the job, but I can't see you gettin’ over there in about 2 years because we got the guys that, uh, well we haven’t got anybody that’s, you know, that’s gonna be retiring or anything like that.” And I don’t know why he said that unless he just didn’t know because they had 2 guys right then was ready to come out, so like I said, this was in, this was in, uh, the fall of 1969… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and the first part of, uh, ’70. In, uh, November of 1970 is when I went in… Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:19:04]. Calvin Sturdivant: …went in that department. But before I – I just want to back up. I wanta go back to [tsk] when I was trying to get in there. So I went in the office and I had to talk to these people, you know, in the union and had to write out a little resume, you know, about, uh… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …why you wanta get in there and what, uh, what, uh, how do you think that you can… Marilyn Coulter: [1:19:28] Qualify? Calvin Sturdivant: …um, qualify and be a benefit and, you know… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and all that kinda stuff, and I remember writing out something, you know, and they accepted it and I went over and I talked with a guy named Jerry, Jerry [Brooks 1:19:41]. [1:19:41] Do you remember Jerry [Brooks 1:19:42]? Male: Oh, yeah. Calvin Sturdivant: [1:19:44] Do you remember him? So Jerry and I – yeah, I, I knew Jerry when, um, he was a foreman out there over in – [1:19:52] do you remember the cushion room? Male: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: He used to be a foreman over in the cushion room [and he and I 1:19:56] used to talk all the time, but now he was in the office and someone said he got there only because his uncle was [tsk] [inaudible 1:20:05] important job. [throat clearing] I was talking to him, and I said, “Jerry, um…” – the race i-, issue came up. Uh and he was one of the ones that was sayin’ they didn’t discriminate and I said, “Jerry,” I says – I'm looking around in his office and I don’t see a black face in here. [chuckle] He said to me, he says, “Uh, Cal, what you’d have us to do, fire all the whites and hire the blacks.” I say, “Yeah, that’d be a good beginning, Jerry.” I got up and walked out. [laughter] Yeah. Female: Oh. Calvin Sturdivant: [tsk] So [sigh] I figured well – I said, “Maybe I shouldn't have said that.” I'm trying to get in another department. I shouldn't have said that, but that was – that didn’t have any bearing. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. And that was good. Calvin Sturdivant: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Now I w-, now, um, Fisher Body was always called the capital of quality. [1:21:17] What do you think that, that went with? Calvin Sturdivant: [tsk] Well I don’t want to knock the place where I worked. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: It was a good place to work. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: I made a, a good living there, but I had always thought seeing those jobs going together and everything and the material they used on 'em and some of the people that were working on 'em, I had always thought that the quality was not number 1. I had always thought that. Now maybe this should not be on, on the record but, but, um, [tsk] I thought that. Female: [Mm-hm 1:21:53]. Calvin Sturdivant: But now, uh, [tsk] in the latter years, I think the quality has improved tremendously because I will not buy a-, any other product but General Motors product. Female: That’s wonderful. Calvin Sturdivant: And if they were still making the Oldsmobile, I would buy an Oldsmobile, and I hated to see 'em get rid of the Oldsmobile. They, they just shoulda kept it, you know. Marilyn Coulter: [1:22:18] Did… Male: [Inaudible 1:22:18]. Marilyn Coulter: [1:22:18] When, when you were working here, did you live in close proximity to the plant? Calvin Sturdivant: The first, first, uh, maybe the first 20 years, yeah, I lived walking distance ‘cause I lived on [Huron 1:22:32] Street ‘cause I could walk to work. Marilyn Coulter: [1:22:34] How did, how did the community feel about Fisher Body? Calvin Sturdivant: That I don’t know. Um… Marilyn Coulter: [1:22:43] [Inaudible 1:22:43] in your community? Calvin Sturdivant: Well [sigh] off the cuff, I would say they felt good, good, good about Fisher Body because in my community when I lived on, uh, [tsk] [West Side 1:23:00], you had several people that was employed at G-, or at Fisher Body, several families. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: So… Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Uh… Calvin Sturdivant: So and then, you know, just from that alone, I would say that they – that was a – they had very positive views about Fisher Body. It was a good place to work, a good place to make a living and people tried to get their, uh, relatives in there, their sons and daughters or brother and sisters, what have you. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Um, last question. You worked there. You worked there for 38 years. You’ve retired now. Now General Motors is retiring Lansing Fisher Body. Sc-, the building is now closed. [1:23:44] How do you feel about that? Calvin Sturdivant: Sad. I feel very bad about that. Uh, sad is not the word I want to use. I just, I just feel that, uh, you know, it's a big letdown even though I'm not working there, but I'm thinking about the people that work there, and I worked there for 38 years, so it, it, it's, it's, uh, one of those dark spots [sigh] in your life, you know, and, uh, I really don’t know what happened. I really don’t know [sigh] and I don’t think anybody knows but GM… Marilyn Coulter: B-, mm-hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …what really, what really, uh… Female: [Inaudible 1:24:33]. Female: [Inaudible 1:24:34]. Calvin Sturdivant: …building this plant out in Delta, [tsk] but will that, um, will, will that encompass all the people that’s being laid off from Fisher Body, from Oldsmobile, and now you got, uh, the, uh, Craft Center where they made the SSR and they got this other plant across the way, so we got a lotta, uh, GM employees that don’t have a job… Female: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: …and, and what I really think that all of those people are not going to be able to get jobs at, at this new plant because GM and these other [factors 1:25:20] are building these plants where they don’t need as much help anymore, so the, the, you know, the emphasis is on automation so, you know, and I just, I just feel, I just f-, I just felt so bad when, when Fisher Body closed. Female: Hm. Calvin Sturdivant: I don’t [sigh] – I just wish that, um, they could have kept it open [or 1:25:46] made something, you know. Female: Mm-hm. Male: Thanks, Cal. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you. Calvin Sturdivant: You're quite welcome. Marilyn Coulter: We want to thank you for your time. Calvin Sturdivant: You're welcome. Female: Thank you. Calvin Sturdivant: You're welcome. I hope I've said something intelligent. Female: [You did 1:25:59]. Female: [Inaudible 1:26:00]. [throat clearing] Male: [Yeah 1:26:02]. /lo