Karel (Frizz) Taborsky discusses his career as a UAW skilled trades electrician and a GM maintenance manager at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doug Rademacher: [laughter] Hello. This is the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. I’m Doug Rademacher. Today is Ape-... Female: March... Doug Rademacher: March... Female: ...15... Doug Rademacher: ...15, 2006. The time is about 10 minutes after 1 in the afternoon, and we are at the UAW Local 602 Frank Dryer Greenhouse. First, we’ll introduce the team. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Gary Judy: Gary Judy. Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicholson. Josefina Martinez: Josefina Martinez. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Doug Rademacher: And Doug Rademacher. Today we are interviewing Karel Taborsky. [0:37] [tsk] Would you please state your name and spell it for the record? Karel Taborsky: My name is Karel Frank Taborsky II, spelled K-A-R-E-L, Frank as normal people spell it, Taborsky T-A-B-O-R-S-K-Y. Doug Rademacher: [0:52] [tsk] And, uh, what is your address? Karel Taborsky: My current address is 2311 Cumberland Road, Lansing, Michigan. Doug Rademacher: [0:59] [tsk] Are you married? Karel Taborsky: No. Doug Rademacher: [1:02] Do you have any children? Karel Taborsky: Yes. Doug Rademacher: [1:05] And what do you have, sir? Karel Taborsky: I have a 26-year-old daughter from a previous marriage. [sniffing] Doug Rademacher: [1:13] Where were you born and raised? Karel Taborsky: I was born in Flint, Michigan, and I lived there probably for 3 years, uh, lived up on Pingree Street by the old brewery by, uh, I-75 there. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with that, but we lived back in that, that neighborhood area. My grandfather had a store there and lived there for, for a while. And then we moved to Ypsilanti, Michigan, and where my father attended Eastern Michigan – not – no, that’s Michigan State Normal College at the time. And we lived there for, oh geez, till I was about 4 or 5 and then we moved to Holt for a half a year, and I attended school there. I don’t remember what – the Elliott School. And then we moved over on, uh, Butler Street, 320 North Butler, and lived there for 4 years with my Dad taught at Sexton High School. I attended Tennessee Street School until the 4th grade. Then we moved over to the house, uh, on, uh, South Tennessee Street, uh, between the summers of 4th and 5th grade and, uh, that’s where I spent a lotta time until I took off on my own after the service got ahold of me. And then I moved to my cur-, well, I actually lived several places out in East Lansing and all the good party, party spots to live. And that’s where I lived and then I, uh, uh, bought a farm. Well, actually, uh, Ho-, on, uh, uh, [mount 2:45]… Doug Rademacher: [Holmes 2:46]. Karel Taborsky: …yeah, [Holmes 2:47] [cheap]. Holmes Road, where we, uh, friend a mine, Doug Rademacher, helped me work on my house and we rebuilt that. And then I moved – then I, uh, got married and bought a farm all on in Bath and was there until I got divorced. And then I moved to the, uh, Lansing Towers Apartments, lived there for seven years. And then I moved over onto Cumberland Road where I’ve been since, for the last 10, 15 years. I don’t know. Time flies when you get old. Doug Rademacher: Thank you. [3:16] Um, were you in the military? Karel Taborsky: Yes, I was. I was a draftee, uh, as I, as I told one a the gentlemen here today that I don’t go anyplace unless I’m invited and Uncle Sam was happy to invite me. [laughter] I went, uh, I went, uh, down to [coughing] Fort Knox for my basic training and, uh, and then I was, uh, I went to, uh – and for my advanced [inaudible 3:39] training, I ended up in Fort Sill, Oklahoma, as an artillery trainee. And, uh, got my month of leave and then I went over to Vietnam, and of course, they put me in a, a target acquisition section, counter mortar, counter rocket radar. And I had a lotta fun there. I extended so I wouldn’t have to spend any more time in the service. I spent 14 months over there, probably no more than, no more than a mile off the Cambodian border most a the time, on the Highway 13. Uh, wherever, wherever the, wherever stuff was happening, that’s where they put the radar section, um, to, you know, [tsk] do our thing and, and locate the, uh, mortars and rockets that were being fired at us, etc., etc. Engaged in a lot of, lotta combat, awful lotta combat. Probly, probly 60 to 70, uh, [tsk] times in that, uh, particular time, and many times for 2 to 3 days. Uh, it was, s-, it was very frightening at the time but, you know, [stammering] as, as minds do, they, uh, they just, uh, uh, forget the bad and you remember the fun parts, which you used to do, go over the mortar platoon, have some fun, you know, this kinda stuff that we won’t talk about on tape. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Um, you shared about your grandfather in Flint, had a store. [5:02] What did your parents do for a living? Karel Taborsky: Well, my mother was a housewife and my, my father, uh, was a very highly respected, uh, instructor right down here most a the time at J.W. Sexton High School. He, uh, he taught automo- shop, auto shop, uh, general mechanics and metal shop. And there, doing that, uh, and I’m – in essence as a child, I spent a lot of time workin’ with my dad over at the school when he’d be gradin’ papers and I’d be runnin’ the machines. Uh, I, I, could run just about any machine there, the lathe, mills and everything by the time I was seven or eight years old, which gave me a, a great appreciation for mechanical things. Doug Rademacher: [5:39] Now, just to put some feeling into it, where exactly – how, how, close was your parent’s home to the Fisher Body Plant? Karel Taborsky: Well… Doug Rademacher: [5:48] And where was the, uh, Sexton High School you speak of? [coughing] Karel Taborsky: Sexton High School sat, uh, just to the, the extreme, uh, south end of Fisher Body. In fact, the, one of the fields that we used for like football and, and the track field, uh, faced, uh, well, building 3X. But that used to be a parking lot before they put that stuff in. I watched that bein’ built. Uh, my parent’s house was, um, probably less than a half a block from the plant proper. I used to kind of joke that I had to – when I lived at home and worked at the plant, that I had – I walked further from the front door of the plant to where I worked in the plant than I did from my house to the front door of the plant. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: [6:35] Could you share, Karel, would you share a little bit about growing up next to an assembly plant? Karel Taborsky: Well, it was interesting. Uh, we, we, used to watch the guys back before they blanked off all the windows and we used to harass’m and pick on’m a little bit. Uh, Fisher Body was always a, a, tremendous neighbor, uh, for, for our neighborhood. My, my mom, uh, quite a forceful person. There was problems back in the old days because the, the [Bonderite 7:02] and the paints ovens and the paint shop was on the, uh – it would be the, the east side of the plant. And there was a lot of paint fumes from the weekends, you know, uh, from the stale water that, that they used to, uh, c‑­, collect the overspray of the paint. And when they’d start the ovens up, it was, uh, probly one of the more interesting smells you’ll ever smell, uh, kind of a cross between a dead horse and a rotten egg. I mean literally. And my mom would call and then they would, they’d come to some sort of remediation, uh, for it. Um, they were always, always very solicitous of the neighbors, well, if they had a problem. Um, I don’t understand why people, you know, uh, move next door to Fisher or, or, uh, whatever we’re called now, and then complain about them, you know. If you move next door to a pig farm, it’s gonna smell, so don’t move next door to a pig farm. But Fisher Body’s not a pig farm. They – in fact, when they built the new part of the plant [tsk], I, I, went through some records lookin’ for some stuff and, uh, GM actually spent $250,000 to build a model of the plant as it would be with a new paint shop, with a new paint shop and wind tunnel tested it to check for, for, for inversion and stuff like that. So, this, this, uh, the fumes and whatever wouldn’t, wouldn’t affect the neighborhood. Doug Rademacher: [8:28] Do you have any stories that you remember of the trains, of the trucks – um, any of the things that you did around the plant and, uh, maybe there was a somethin’ that resembled a coach out front? Karel Taborsky: There was – out in front of the – and that’s somethin’ that always just fascinated me as a child – was that, uh, they used to have the, uh – what do they call that, [guys 8:49]? Well, anyway, they used to – they had a large Fisher Body floral display, if you wanna call it, with the Fisher Body coach right out on the – what would be the, the north, northeast corner. It was a large thing. Uh, the guy that – the gardener – they actually had a, a full-time gardener in those days. They’d lay him off during the winter and he worked during the summer taking care of the – it’s almost like topiary. Uh, he’d, he’d, he’d clip the, clip the f-, uh, flowers and it was just, it was just fascinating. I would just, used go over there and look at it all the time. It was, was pretty cool I thought. Doug Rademacher: Um, there’s a place called Harry’s Bar, Harry’s Place… Karel Taborsky: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [9:31] …did that, was that an intricate part of your growing up at all? Karel Taborsky: Well, it was kinda fun because – I don’t remember if it was Mario or Art, but old la-, old lady – we used to call her Mrs. Harry and Mr. Harry, uh, used to live, used to live on the second floor there. And as kids, we used to play, you know, play baseball in the vacant lot, which would be to the si-, it’d be to the east of the plant. And we used to hit the balls up on the top of his roof and he, of course, he didn’t really, he really didn’t care for that too much. And we also used to pick up the beer bottles that the, uh, that the factory folks would set – when they’d, they’d just leave in the parkin’ lot. And then, you know, two cents was two cents back then. And we kids would go get and of-, quite often get chased out of there because we, we were running off with their money in essence. And that was always big fun, you know. Doug Rademacher: Yes, I do. [laughter] Karel Taborsky: Yes, you do. Doug Rademacher: Um, okay, well, we’ll move on. [10:29] Why did you hire into Fisher Body? Karel Taborsky: Well, I got outta the service and I went back to my job at Daimler Tool and Die. And at that time, uh, the tool and die industry, uh, uh – in fact the American auto industry was really startin’ to, to feel the pinch of the, the early ‘70s – the uh, uh, gasoline and all a this stuff. Plus, the manufacturing methods were, were, uh, changing a lot. There was a lot more computer stuff goin’ on, uh, very, very primitive stuff. So anyway, basically, I got [coughing] laid off. And so, I went drag racing. That’s the first thing you do when you, when you go, when you get laid off. A couple friends and I, uh, we put together a, a race car, a ’69 Camaro 427 automatic. And we went what we thought was pretty professional racing. We did that for, oh, couple, th-, [inaudible 11:31] – well, actually the whole thing was about five years. But in the interim, that – my unemployment ran out. And my dad bein’ a teacher brought home a piece of paper and he says – uh, he told me basically, “Boy,” he says, “you take this test. You’re gonna get a job. You’re not goin’ racin’ for a living.” So I went over and took the test because I was told to. ‘Cause I’ve always been a very good child. [laughter] And, um, so I didn’t worry about it. I went racin’. Well, the lady next door to me, uh, uh, Elizabeth Curry, she used to be the plant controller. And so, fair-, my folks were pretty friendly with her. And she came over one day and she says, “You know you better get Karel over there to get his apprenticeship, uh, you know, check on his apprenticeship because they can’t put any apprentices until – on until he shows up.” Well, you know, that piqued my interest, so I went over and I talked to, uh, [R.J. Cushman 12:29], who was the apprentice coordinator at the time. And I, uh, uh – he and I had a conversation. He was very glad to see me because at the time, you could sign up for all of the trades, whatever trade you wanted. And I didn’t, I didn’t sign up for any of’m. But I had scored high enough on the apprenticeship test that by the, uh, by the process by which they selected apprentices, me being the highest, I could have any apprenticeship I wanted. So they couldn’t hire any in-plant people until they put me someplace. So I got there and I said – they asked me what I wanted to be. I said, “I wanna be a tool and die maker.” And he says, “Well, we don’t have that.” I says, “Well, what’s the closest?” He says, “A tool maker.” And I said, “Well, I’ll be a toolmaker.” And they said, “Well, you don’t wanna be a toolmaker because we got toolmaker apprentices laid off. One’s been laid off for two years.” And I says, “Well, fine. [throat clearing] What’s a millwright?” I figured a millwright ran a mill. Because I had a, a, a, tool and die background, I ran a lotta machines. And uh, one of the machines I ran was a mill, so I figured they ran a mill. He says, “No, no, those guys are lift and carry basically and, uh, weld and move stuff around. I says, “Well, what one pays the most?” And they said an electrician. And I says, “I’ll be an electrician.” And that’s how I got in. Doug Rademacher: Okay. That’s interesting. [13:49] Uh, when did you hire in to Fisher Body? Karel Taborsky: The 6th of July in 1971. And I knew that I was gonna like this job ‘cause I hired in, worked for a week and got laid off for a week. [laughter] And I thought this was gonna be the best job in the world, workin’ half time because that wouldn’t interfere with my racin’ activities. But later I found out it was just a way to, to the 6, to the 4 guys who came on as electricians with me, so they could have a date of entry earlier than mine. Because they were plant people. And that didn’t bother me a bit. So that’s, that’s why, that’s why my seniority date’s the way it is. Doug Rademacher: Okay. [14:30] Did you have any other family members that worked in Fisher Body? Karel Taborsky: No, not that I’m aware of. My dad worked for Kaiser-Frazer, but that doesn’t count, does it? Doug Rademacher: Not at this point, but… Karel Taborsky: Okay. Doug Rademacher: …it’s important. [14:44] Um, how old were you when you hired into the plant? Karel Taborsky: I don’t know. How old am I now? I think I was, I think I was 23, yeah 23. I woulda been, I woulda been, I think I woulda been 23 or 24 on that next October after that July that I hired in. Doug Rademacher: [15:05] And what shift and department did you hire into? Karel Taborsky: Well, the maintenance department, hired in right off the street as an apprentice, as I’ve said, as an electrician. And, uh, [coughing] I started out in the, in this – well, what we call now the central maintenance area. [sniffing] Uh, but back then, basically, uh, all of the trades, with the exception of the [WEMARs 15:26] that worked out in the body shop – that’s a welder, welder equipment maintenance and repair. They worked out in the body shop and the rest of the calls, uh, were taken, uh – any trouble calls were taken from the central shop. You know, [inaudible 15:38], like a bunch of, uh, Keystone Cops and hang off [throat clearing] the side of it and go off and take care of the, take care of whatever the problems was, were. Doug Rademacher: Well, you seem like a very qualified guy… Karel Taborsky: Oh, I’m qualified. Doug Rademacher: …for what you, uh – you took the test. You were tops in the scoring and you got to pick your, your choice. [15:58] Now, tell me, can you remember your first day on the job? And what was it like knowing that you grew up across the street? You walk in this building. Where’d they take ya? What’d they do with ya that day? Karel Taborsky: Well, another fella and I – Kenny Eichelberger. Kenny Eichelberger hired in off the street as an apprentice also. Uh, the first – we were the first 2 guys that were hired off a the street, into the trades, on the apprenticeship, probably in, in 10 to 12 years. And as it turned out, it was another 12 or so years before they hired anybody else in off the street. So I figured that had somethin’ to do with the, the quality of people that we were. My first day on the job, we, we walked in the, uh, the front entrance. Uh, we walked down the steps past plant security, uh, rather apprehensive and went up there and – it wasn’t Jerry Brooks. I can’t remember the name of the guy that interviewed me but just basically, uh, you know [stammering], just a few, a few questions and, uh, determined my suitability for the job and off I went. And my first, my first supervisor was Al Jackson, bless his heart. Just an absolute Superman, as far as I’m concerned. One of the finest gentlemen I’ve ever known. He’s since passed. So we – he showed me around and he says, “Glad to have ya pullin’ sparks with us.” That’s what this – that’s the first thing he said to me. And went around and met the fellas and got assigned to the, probly the grouchiest old journeyman that they, that they could. They’re gonna test the kid. Well, I came in there with virtually no electrical knowledge other than, uh, some minor wi-, minor house wiring. And I worked with this guy and he was totally convinced that I was unsuitable for the job because I didn’t know anything. And I informed him that of course, I don’t know anything. I’m an apprentice. I’m here to learn. Teach me something. So that day he went to Al Simpson, who was the apprenticeship, uh, union rep at the time, and told Al that I should be taken off the apprenticeship because I don’t know anything. His name was – what was his name? His name was Ted, guess I can’t remember his last name right off hand. But he was a gnarly old guy and I, I, and I, f-, always kinda prided myself as gettin’ on the good side a everybody at least once. So I worked pretty hard with him and, uh, we ended up bein’ pretty good partners after a while. And I found that, uh, actually he didn’t know as much as I did. I thought it was justice. Doug Rademacher: Well, you’ve shared your first boss and you’re first, uh, partner. [18:38] Can ya share a little about what did you think of the plant and the people and what was goin’ on? Had ya – I know you’d peeked in the windows as a kid, but had you ever really put into perspective the assembly line? Karel Taborsky: No, I was absolutely amazed when I went in there and saw all those people standing along this, uh, conveyor line, especially up in the old trim shop on the second floor. At one time, this plant has hed-, held many records in its time. But at one time, this plant had the longest continuous conveyor line in the world, at well over a half mile long. And that was amazing. Going down in the body shop, in, in, uh, what they used to call the jungle, which [stammering] we’re kinda comin’ back to a little bit. Back there at the last part, where you hand-held the manual guns, you could literally have trouble passin’ through these guns if you tried to cross the line. It was dirty. It was smoky. It was loud, sparks goin’ all over the place from the weld guns. Um, big, uh – well, well, they were, body, body building pallets at the time, uh, weighed probly 2500, 3200 pounds on this big chain. And they’d go in and they’d go down a hill and they’d disappear from sight. They’d go through a tunnel and they’d come out someplace else. And a big machine would put, uh, put parts on there and I’m just, I’m just flabbergasted. I’m goin’, “I never thought anything would be like this.” You know, I never thought about buildin’ a car, except racin’. But, uh, it was, it was qui-, it was really – it was a little scary, you know. And I was at Nam. You know, I didn’t think anything could faze me but that – I mean this was, holy Christ, you know, somethin’s gonna, somethin’s gonna hit me. Somethin’s gonna knock me down. But after a while, you gain a, you gain a certain – you get a, you get a third eye. And you get a very good sense of where you are and where you’re standing. Doug Rademacher: So you, uh, remember the guy you hired in with. [20:35] Did he – is he still with us? Does he… Karel Taborsky: Oh yeah. Doug Rademacher: … continue to work? Karel Taborsky: Oh, yeah, Kenny, Kenny works over at, uh, plant 2. He might be a good candidate for, for that [throat clearing] and for this kinda interview if you’re interested in him. We have the same seniority [inaudible 20:48], same time and he’s just younger. So he gets to work a little longer than me. But we, we kinda teamed up, just bein’ the new kids on the block. He was a millwright. I had a trade. I was an electrician. Doug Rademacher: [21:01] Thinking back, were there any new-hire initiations or pranks that were done to you or did you get to reciprocate? Karel Taborsky: No. [laughter] They, they didn’t mess with me. I was, I was probably just about a half a bubble off comin’ out of Vietnam. I had, uh, I had a lotta attitude, uh, and uh, I had a lotta hostility. And, you know, that kinda conflicted with tryin’ to get along with everybody. But, uh, and they, uh, they didn’t goose me or anything ‘cause I’d probly had broke their arms. I, I did hurt a couple guys a couple times and then basically, they just kinda le-, left me alone. I didn’t, I didn’t do it to anybody and they didn’t do it to me. And that’s just fine. Doug Rademacher: So there was no prank. You just kinda hurt somebody. Karel Taborsky: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [21:52] Um, did you have – can you give a physical appearance? Did you have, uh, long hair back then? Karel Taborsky: When I hired in, I got outta the service in Jul-, June, no, uh, January, late January of 1970. And from that time on, I had decided I wasn’t gonna get my hair cut. Uncle Sam could tell me to cut my hair. He could shoot me for not doin’ it but I figured there’s nobody in this world gonna tell me how to wear my hair anymore. I earned my right to do what I wanted to. And for that time, until I hired in, uh, about a year, year and a half, I grew my hair. And when I came in, Mr. Cushman says, “You’re gonna have to cut your hair.” And I says, “Sir, I refuse to cut my hair.” And he said, “Well, it may be an issue later. Uh, we don’t want long hair around here.” And I told him that, uh, if he didn’t want long hair around here, he could talk to my lawyer and so, they hired me. And so, went in there and the guys would fool with it a little bit, once. And, uh, I, I just outta spite I guess after a while, I let my beard grow almost down to my navel and my hair the same length too. And for – and when I had worked, I’d, I’d wrap it up and I’d stick it under, stick it under my shirt and put, put the hair under my hat. And they found that a guy with hair and a beard could actually do things. And I think I gained their respect and I know I respect them. Doug Rademacher: You have a nickname. [23:22] Um, could you share that and is it connected at all? Karel Taborsky: Yeah, I have a nickname. Um, that nickname came about – uh, I was probly about, oh I don’t know, maybe, maybe the third year of the apprenticeship. And, uh, we had gone out one afternoon and uh, had a few cocktails. And then we brought a few cocktails back in with us ‘cause it was so much fun. In retrospect, it was stupid but it was fun then. Well, anyway at that time, uh, as I said, I generally wore my hair up under a hat and my beard inside my shirt. Well, as the night progressed, my hair became more and more disheveled and uh, fuzzed out and everything. And one of the, one of the fellas, Al Peacock, looked at me and he says, “You’re all frizzed out.” And he laughed and he giggled and he says, “Frizzby!” And, and the name stuck. I kinda liked it. I kinda like not havin’ my real name when I’m in any group of people anyway. And this one, this one worked out good. Uh, they had a lot of fun with it over the years. And I, and then as, then as I got more and more cocky and more sure of myself, I became not only Frizzby but I became ‘the mighty Frizzby.’ [coughing] And I am still, to many people, the mighty Frizzby. And of course, I play that for all it’s worth. It’s fun. Doug Rademacher: Well, you shared a little bit about, uh, going out [sniffing] and coming back in. [24:54] Can ya share what it was like, uh, in the old days takin’ a lunch break? They were… Karel Taborsky: I… Doug Rademacher: …they were a little longer than, than they are now, correct? Karel Taborsky: No. Doug Rademacher: No? Karel Taborsky: No, it was a half hour. We had a half hour. Uh, basically, what I did, I, I was – uh, my parents, as I said, lived, uh, lived across the street. And most generally, during lunch, when I was on days especially, I would, I would just go home, fix a sandwich. You know, my mom might fix somethin’ for me ‘cause, you know, as I said, I was livin’ at home. And as, and as I moved out and moved out to East Lansing and, uh, that – after I got out of the service – I didn’t move out ‘cause I was living in East Lansing before I went in the service. Female: Mm-hm. Karel Taborsky: But as I, um, got, it got harder and harder, you know, as I moved further away. I’d, I’d bring my own lunch. I very seldom went to the bar. [coughing] Uh, because I know, that my proclivities are – I generally get in trouble, somehow, if I have too much spare time or anything like that. Gary Judy: Frizz, Gary Judy. Uh, you hired in as a apprentice. [25:57] Can you tell us what that involves and how long you, you have to be an apprentice to get your journeyman’s card? Karel Taborsky: Well, it’s, uh, it’s a, it’s a pretty, uh, um, structured thing. There’s so many hours you have to spend bending conduits, so many hours you have to spend, uh, repairing this. We were working on at the time, it was 12-volt or high-cycle stuff, uh, um, and working on various machines and, and doin’ this – a lotta repair, a lotta troubleshooting. Very rigorous, very, uh, by the hour, 800 hours of this, 200 hours of this. Until you get around, I don’t know, 70 – I’m a apprentice coordinator now and I don’t even know, uh, ‘bout 7200. Let’s say 7300 hours’ worth of on-the-job training. Plus, at that time and it’s still this time, you had to fulfill, uh, certain educational requirements. And, uh, those were, those were laid out. For example, electrical p-, uh, blueprint reading, uh, trigonometry, geometry and that stuff. Um, in, in my particular apprenticeship, uh, I had gone to school. I had a lot of that, uh, stuff up front and they used to pay you by the hour to go to school. And for every hour you were in a class, you got paid your hourly rate, which by the way was $4.06 an hour when I started. And when I started, I told those guys, “I’m not workin’ for less than $4 an hour.” The $4.06 minimum fell right into that one. [laughter] But, uh, we, we did that and they, they – you’d buy your books. And, and, and then they would, uh, they’d give you, they’d give you your hourly rate to go to school, which wasn’t bad. I mean it was not bad for me. And, uh, uh, unfortunately, I, I took that as meaning that if I went to school for 6 hours a week, then I’d work for 34 hours a week. Because I understood that, uh, I was required only to be there 40 hours. And so, I did that for quite some time. Uh, my supervisors didn’t particularly care for I didn’t work weekends because most of those weekends, I was drag racing. [Inaudible 28:06] was, – I was quite a professional at the time. I was actually quite good. Our car ran, at that time, it ran 0.3 under the national record, which was pretty good. So I, you know, there came to be a point where one of my supervisors, Jack Smith, a retired, uh, colonel outta the army, who kinda took me under his wing, realizing that I was a, a veteran and that I, I’d, I didn’t come out with a lot – I ca-, came out with a few bruises. Let’s put it that way. And he, he kinda took me under his wing and he informed me that, “Uh, Frizz, while I appreciate the fact that you’re a, a, you know, almost professional racer, you’ve got to make a choice here, son. Are you gonna be – are you gonna race or are you gonna work here? You have to commit to one or the other.” He says, “Be sorry to lose ya if you, uh, go racing.” “But,” he said, “we’d be more than happy to keep you on.” And that was – I was pretty close to losin’ my job because a that. And so, I weighed my, my options. And I went, well, I got insurance. I got dental. I got this. I got a good job and a great bunch of people to work with and I’m havin’ a lot of fun. So I guess I’ll back off on my racing career, which I did do. And, you know, but I still raced. Earl Nicholson: [throat clearing] Earl Nicholson. Frizzby, you’re, uh, skilled trades and, uh, skilled trades, um, they handle a lot of emergencies. [29:31] Is there, is there, is there any special emergency that you, that you were called to that, what, that’s memorable? Was anybody hurt? Karel Taborsky: I, I, in, in a lotta ways, I was lucky in, in not having anyone, uh, severely hurt that I had to, uh, pull outta trouble. Uh, actually, more of the, uh, stuff like that, that happened was recently, you know. I mean back when, uh, when the, when the plant was still runnin’. When we had the power failures and stuff. I got to be, uh, I guess, thought of as being pretty much the guy, the go-to guy when anything went screwy. And I always was on nightshift because I liked it better there. And when somethin’ went bad, you’d have power failures. You’d have, um, conveyor breakdowns. A chain would break. Cars would come out of the ceiling over there in building 23, off that big decline. They’d always call me to kinda run the show. I guess I had a, uh, pretty good feeling for the building, where everything was, how to do all this stuff. And it was, it was, it’s kinda fun. It’s a, it’s a good feeling to do a good job. And one a my part, part of my job was also keeping management away from my fellas, even as a manager. I was just gettin’ them outta there, not botherin’ my fellas when they’re tryin’ to concentrate on what they’re doing. Uh, there’s a lotta good feelings in that, makes me feel actually confident. Doug Rademacher: Well, you just went from, uh, sharing that you were an electrician and, and learning the trade. Now, you’ve, you’ve said that you’ve – were keeping management away from your guys. [31:11] So would you please lead us to where, uh – how long were in the trade and, and what decisions did you make to, to move forward? Karel Taborsky: Okay. Well, excuse me – I was – actually I’m k-, I think I carry about 10 years actual tool time, full-time tool time. And then I, I got delusions of grandeur. Uh, one day, I basically just, I, I, kinda got, uh, fed up with the style of management that they had at the time. Uh, back in those days, uh, you know, when you consider that I hired in in ’71 – in ’38 – ’38 they had the sit-down strike, am I correct? That’s only, you know, that’s only 30 years. And they went from shootin’ people – uh, these blessed union people. I’m tellin’ ya, the union made this country great. They’ve, they’ve raised the c-, uh, the [stammering], uh, level of living for these guys. And these guys died for this. Well, anyway the management style there was pretty, uh, authoritarian. Pretty much, “I have you under my thumb and you do what I say.” And I got tired, of, of the supervisors comin’ around and just jumpin’ in guys, uh, just gettin’ on’m for, for no, what I considered no reasons. So I, I went out one day and just cut my hair off and uh, uh, signed up for supervision. And they thought it was a joke. They thought I was just doin’ somethin’. I guess I had kind of a reputation of being a little off-kilter at some times. You know, not harmful, but just looked at things differently. And they asked me if I wanted to, if I was serious. And I says, “Yes.” And they said, “Why?” I says, “I’m tired of the way management’s runnin’ the place. I wanna do what I can. [laughter] I wanna subvert, I guess.” [laughter] And they took me on and I don’t think they’ve been unhappy. But, uh, I have a, I have a very proprietary relationship with my guys. Uh, I love my guys. I love my people that work for me and work with me. It makes me feel good to, to s-, to take a, to take an employee that may have a little problem and coach and counsel him and watch him, just watch him blossom, you know. When I was a tradesman, my hand tools were my tools. Now, my people are my, are my tools, the things that I need to aid me and get my job done. Doug Rademacher: Karel, would you, uh – Doug Rademacher. [33: 44] Karel, would you – you just shared a little bit about the union – go a little further. Did you consider your union as serving you well? Did you consider running for a union position prior to going on salary? Karel Taborsky: I figured the union did as well as it could under the circumstances. Uh, but as in any organization, I feel you get three people and you got politics. You know, you got two people that get along. Three people means politics. I didn’t think I could change, the change – make the changes I wanted if I, if I was a actual union guy. I, I k-, I tell the guys kinda jokingly – I may have even said it to you. I was – I’m a better union man now that I’m on supervision than I was when I was – you remember it – when I was, when I was hourly. Uh, because I, I appreciated what they did. While I was – I never made a committee call. You know, I’d always get busted for somethin’ but I’d set myself up for it, [laughter] you know. But when I was on hourly – but, you know, that was just my normal hell-raisin’ nature. But, uh, you know, I think, I think the union’s done a, a wonderful job, you know. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. First, there’s been always a lot of talk about the hourly and the skilled-trades arenas not getting along very well. [35:03] How did you look at the hourly on the line? How did you, uh, view them? Karel Taborsky: As a tradesman, they really – it was like, um, like goin’ to the mall. You know, you see a lotta people there. You can tell what they’re doin’ kinda. But it really, it never really impacted my life. Uh, when I was out on – when I was in the body shop –which ended up bein’ a truly interesting thing for me –uh, running an area, uh, having people working, you get to talk to the people. You get to learn a little bit about’m. You get to learn their quirks. You get to learn what makes them happy. And I always tried to keep my area runnin’ right. ‘Cause as I said before, I’m pretty lazy. And I figured that if you go out and do everything you need to do, you know, uh, take care of it, the people won’t be gnarly. You know, the, uh, [inaudible 35:55]. And if you say, “I’ll get to it,” they believe you. You know, I always liked to – I have a lot of credibility with the, with the production folks and as, and as well as in my trade, with my trade brothers, you know. Cheryl McQuaid: [36:06] Did any production person ever ask you to do, uh, government work for them? And if so, what kind of government work did you do for’m? Karel Taborsky: Yes, they, uh – I would, I would help them do just about anything they asked. I’d do anything for’m, they, that, that I could do. Uh, there’s, you know, there’s that, uh, that dichotomy there as, uh, as, as you know. Are you, are you stealin’ from the company? Well, you know, uh, uh, many of us kinda overlooked that in a way. It’s not right. It takes money. But on the other hand, it’s called people-pleasin’, you know. A guy that, that has trouble doin’ stuff, he brings, he brings his chainsaw in and say, “Hey Frizz, can you get, can you get a screw for this or make this up?” I just made that man’s life very happy. You know, he, he’s happy now. You know, he s-, sends a little ray of sunshine in the world. I, I helped’m out. I’ll do anything I can for the guys, most the time. Some guys would, uh, of course, would try to take advantage of it and they got shut off. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. Now, you just described something. Um, Cheryl asked you about a government job. [37:18] Can you desc-, what does that mean? I mean if we’re talkin’ to students that have never worked in the auto industry, what is a government job? Karel Taborsky: Well, a government job is a euphemism for, uh, doing, doing work or a-, acquiring things for folks that they wouldn’t normally have. If a guy wants a handful of nuts or bolts and he wants’m put together on somethin’, and your boss comes in and asks you what you’re doin’. Rather than say, “Hey, I’m workin’ on Cheryl’s, uh, uh, lawnmower here.” Um, very hard to get a lawnmower in but that’s the first word that came to my mind. [laughter] Um, I’m fixin’ it for her. Um, I’m doin’ a little government work, you know, for Uncle Sam. It, uh, just, just a way to say it’s not directly connected to your, uh, assigned work. Doug Rademacher: Okay, then, so that means you would, you would be allowed to do that but if something came up… Karel Taborsky: Oh yeah. Doug Rademacher: …prior to… Karel Taborsky: Well… Doug Rademacher: …was the, uh, [inaudible 38:17]. Karel Taborsky: …you, you know, [stammering] there, there was, as in anything, there’s different kinds of people. Uh, there was some supervisors you didn’t wanna, you know, let in. Uh, you didn’t want’m to have anything on you. You didn’t want’m to have any leverage over ya. So you, you know, if you’re – you just play it smart, you know. You’re not gonna sit there and advertise that fact. Then again, you didn’t really hide it either. Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicholson. Uh, Frizz, um, you hired in, in 1971. You went right to skilled trades. [38:46] Uh, were there many women or minorities in the skilled trades at that time? Karel Taborsky: Ah, [tsk, tsk] no women and me as a minority. ‘Cause I was the first hippie in the maintenance department. [laughter] Uh, there was, there was, uh, uh, let me see, 1, 2 – there was probably, there were probably 6 to 8. And I could be wrong on that. If you showed me the seniority list for then, I could tell who was what. Probly 6 to 8 Black men in the millwright trade. Um, a couple of Hispanics. One, one that well –yeah, one Puerto Rican that I can think of in, in the tool repair [sneezing] trade. And we had several different trades. We had quite a few more, uh, than we got nowadays. Uh, the, in, on, in the – on the whole, there was probably less than 5 percent of, uh, of minorities and women. Uh, I can think of 1, 2 women that were, that were in the, in the tool repair trade and that was it. Earl Nicholson: [40:05] So can you, can you remember the first woman to come in and to become an electrician? She never worked… Karel Taborsky: I’m thinkin… Earl Nicholson: …for you? Karel Taborsky: I’m thinkin’, I’m thinkin’ that might’ve been [Linda Day 40:19]. No, she’s not – there was, there was, t-, I’m kinda mixed up. There’s [Terri Brummel 40:27]. She hired in as an apprentice because we were really gettin’ hammered for EEO jobs, EEO, uh, requirements. Doug Rademacher: [40:37] What is EEO? Karel Taborsky: Equal Employment Opportunity. Uh, GM was, uh, very, very, uh, out-of-norm for what the government, uh, would say that, that, that the proper percentages would be. Um, I think Linda Day, I think was the first, was the first one that I can remember. Earl Nicholson: [41:02] Could ya, could ya… Karel Taborsky: And she was in [EIT 41:03]. Earl Nicholson: …could ya tell us, uh, what it, what it, what was it like for her? [41:09] I mean was it difficult for her? Did the guys give her a hard time? Karel Taborsky: Well, as, as, as Doug pointed out earlier asking about the pranks and the – you have to go through a certain rite of passage. Everybody, uh, takes it in a different way. Uh, Linda did very well. She, she, she could bark back. She, she had a backbone. She just didn’t hide in a corner and bat her eyelids. Uh, she really tried to do a good job and that, that was good. And she was accepted by, you know, anybody that had a brain in their head, as a, as a good person. And, and that’s kinda the way any – actually, uh, I didn’t, I never really perceived any discriminatory stuff, you know, in this way with, “Don’t talk to anyone who’s Black. Don’t talk to anyone who’s a woman.” I never really – of course, maybe my mind overlooks it because I don’t do it at all, myself. It doesn’t make any difference to me. But I don’t, I don’t recall s-, hearing much of it, you know. The – most of the discrimination was – at that time, was aimed at hippies. Earl Nicholson: Wow, hippies. Karel Taborsky: Oh, yeah. Earl Nicholson: Right. I’d like to go slightly, slightly in another direction here. Karel Taborsky: That’s a good call. [laughter] Earl Nicholson: [42:23] I’d like to, I’d like you to tell us how was your relationship with the power, with the powersh-, the Powerhouse guys. I, I heard that they could be a pretty arrogant group of people. Karel Taborsky: I never had any problem with those guys. In fact, I was in the Powerhouse with [Cliffy Ashelby 42:38] and that was basically, uh, kind of a, a – they were orphans, if you want to call it that. I mean, they, they were left to their own. They had to loot and steal ‘cause their, you know, supervision – their, their management really wasn’t competent enough to, to, uh, nevermind. They weren’t really competent and so, if we wanted anything, we had to go find it ourselves or whatever. And they were, they weren’t arrogant. They were just, they were unloved. You know, just like, just like a dog [laughter] you leave out in the backyard and never give a bone to, you know. They just got, they got gnarly. But I never had any problem with’m. Earl Nicholson: [43:12] Did you have a lot of respect for those guys because that Powerhouse that they were managing was like, uh, built back in the… Karel Taborsky: 1922, I got prints, 1922. That’s when a lotta the plant was put up, a lotta the big plant ‘cause there used to be the Durant plant. And that, that, that brick façade on there is the same brick façade as the one down on the corner there at, uh, lan – what is it, the bedding store, B&L, whatever it is, right across the street from the old pub. That used to be the Durant showroom [whispering]. And if you look at it, you’ll see the beauty of, of, the, that actual brickwork in that place. I just – it has always amazed me. They were good guys, you know. They were misunderstood. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: [44:01] Um, since we got to the minorities and the women, did you, you – [throat clearing] after having them brought on board and the numbers, did you ever feel that was unjust or did ya feel like – was it long overdue and did ya, and did it… Karel Taborsky: I think, I think that… Doug Rademacher: …ever impact the quality? Karel Taborsky: …in, in my mind, if you can do the job, you can do it. The only thing that I’ve noticed with the exception of one, uh, female millwright – strong as an ox – the, the ladies physically weren’t able to do a lotta the, the heavy overhead work. But, and, and, and I’m gonna say that most of’m didn’t stay in the background. I mean it takes, it takes a lot of guts to d-, to decide you’re gonna be a, a tradesperson in a basically, a man’s environment or what’s perceived as a man’s environment. They did, they did pretty well. Uh, some of’m, uh, you know, just like anybody, I thought they were a number. And that’s probably as unkind as I’ve ever thought about it. But in the main, they, they, they were pretty dedicated. They tried, at least the first ones, you know. They tried. The ones I really worked directly with, they tried very hard to, to make a place for themselves and be, y-, be considered competent. Doug Rademacher: [45:23] Doug Rademacher. Karel, did you have any brothers and sisters when you grew up? Karel Taborsky: Yes, I do. I have two younger brothers and if you put us together, we’d be triplets. Doug Rademacher: [45:33] My question to you then is, did there come a time working inside the Fisher Body plant that the workers became your brothers and sisters? Karel Taborsky: I have very few friends, uh, through the plant. Uh, I have many close relationships with the guys when I’m at work but I don’t see’m after work. Um, I, I compartmentalize my life a lot. When I’m at work, I’m at work, you know, and I’m playin’, playin’ with my friends. When I go home, I’m playin’ with my other friends. They don’t mix too much. Earl Nicholson: [46:14] So tell us – uh, Earl Nicholson – tell us, Frizz, uh, you were, you were talking about, uh, supervision here a while ago. You were saying that you wanted to, to make a change. Um, would, could you, could you tell us what, what, what’s a good s-, what was, what made a good supervisor and what made a bad supervisor? Karel Taborsky: Well, I think you could answer that, Earl. I think all a you folks sittin’ here at the table have your own, have your opinions on, on what makes a good supervisor. But I allow my people – I work very hard at allowing my people to have integrity. I work very hard at respecting my people and I expect the same from them. I tell’m, I don’t lie, cheat or steal to them. Uh, if they want somethin’, I’ll give it to’m. I’ll give – do the best I can and when I ask for somethin’, I better have it. It’s a very much of a give-and-take thing. So I think a good supervisor is, has a backbone. He’s willin’ to go the go the wall for his boys, his people. Uh, all, even my women are boys as far as I’m concerned. They’re my boys, my guys and I will back’m. And like I tell my, my fellas, I says, “Don’t lie to me because then I can’t lie for ya. You gotta always tell me the truth.” And they do. And there’s a, there’s a, uh, uh, a certain, uh, thing that, you know, that develops, in, in – for that, you know. We’re all in this together. It’s not, you know – I mean if you’re wrong, I’m gonna tell ya you’re wrong. If you did wrong, you’re gonna pay. But basically, you do it to yourself. I don’t do it to ya. I’m not after ya. You’re just not, you’re just not fittin’ into what, what we’ve agreed, what I’ve agreed that the working conditions or the, the, uh, con-, code of conduct is. And these guys do very, very well with that ‘cause they know that I’ll take care of’m. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. Karel, you wanted to make a change. You didn’t like the way management ran. [48:28] Does anything stand out that you were instrumental in changing that you, uh, hold dear to your heart? Karel Taborsky: Nah, nothin’ I can think of other than I’m just an absolute wonderful person and people, people actually clamor to work for me. Uh, I – and that makes me feel very good. That makes me feel really, really, uh, you know, almost self-serving in, in the fact that I, I get such a good feeling out of it. Uh, you know, the folks on the line, you know, they, they like me ‘cause, you know, “Hey, Frizz!” I always have time for’m. Why? It’s my job, you know. If you’re steppin’ on a, if you’re steppin’ on a, a platform that has plywood on it and, and, and the plywood’s up an eighth of an inch – you know, at first, I was thinkin, “Geez, what a dumb thing to do.” And then I started thinkin’ back in the days we were runnin’ 70 jobs an hour and you’re workin’ 9½ hours a day. Well, 720 jobs, 720 times you’re trippin’ or stumblin’ over that. And you feel it through your shoes. And it drives ya nuts. I always used to think, “You know, do what a dog would do. Walk around it.” But that means that people aren’t as smart as a dog. And then I realized, “Hey, put yourself in their place. Watch’m, you know.” So, you know, you go out and you take care of this stuff for the people and it’s so they’re happy. They don’t have –they don’t fall down. They don’t have an achin’ back or, uh, sprained ankle or somethin’ because they’re dodgin’ the bad spot. That’s the kinda stuff that I like to see. That’s the kind of change that I think I made. I look at my paint shop, where I’m workin’ now at L.D.T. My manager worked very hard at assembling a crew of people that actually, uh, kinda have the same beliefs – that, work, work code that I do and I think they’ve done a wonderful job so far. I always wait and see. But, uh, in the, in the main, at least in the paint shop, everybody loves everybody. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of camaraderie. That’s what I want. I’m not your boss. My job is to give you a job. Doug Rademacher: Sounds like you are very concerned for your workers. Working at a factory is, um, like you said, when ya, when you hired in, uh, the feeling was that you, you’re in here and you’re mine. You know, and you’re under my thumb. [50:54] Did, uh – it sounds like you recognized people’s problems. Did you have anyone where you were able to help them through a trying time, uh, so they didn’t lose their job or… Karel Taborsky: There was, there was several. And I’d prefer not to go into that. Uh, when I see somebody gettin’ dealt a bad hand, I stand up for’m, even if it’s an hourly guy. It wasn’t right, you know. I’d, it wasn’t unusual for me to go right up to personnel and say, “Hey, guy’s getting’ a bad shake.” You know, I’d put myself out for’m; however, they didn’t know it. I’d never tell’m. And that’s the way it is. You gotta take care of people. I don’t have to like everybody but I certainly have to take care of’m. Doug Rademacher: There were many different plant managers… Karel Taborsky: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: …from the time you hired in. Karel Taborsky: Old “high pockets.” Doug Rademacher: [51:46] Anybody hang, uh, anyone, uh, [laughter] – you could run through a few of’m but anyone, uh, stand out as being a great person to work for and with people? Karel Taborsky: Well, there was [Tom Weithorn 51:57]. He was always fun. I just, just enjoyed watchin’ the man walk. Uh, they called him high pockets. He probly stood about 6 foot 6, white-haired, very distinguished, very slim gentleman. And then there was [Leonard Redborma III 52:10] and he was the, uh, director of plant engineering around that time. And it always just used to, just give me the – I’d just watch’m walk down the aisles together. And uh, let’s see, there was, uh, Don Chenoweth. He was in there and then there was Buckmaster, uh, Dick Buckmaster. He was a production manager after – and he was, he was quite a character. I, I really enjoyed Dick the whole time he was workin’ there. He just – for some reason, he and I just, uh, formed a bond. And as an early supervisor, uh, he would actually call down to the maintenance area and say, you know, or have, uh, you know, just, “Where’s, where’s Frizzby? Tell him to come down. He’s got a meeting with the manager, meeting with the plant manager.” And we’d go down and we’d discuss things. He used me as a sounding board for some of his stuff. I found him a man of great integrity. He was also somebody you’d never want to cross. Uh, uh, they all, they all, they always used to laugh about, uh, him. If you – if Buck got on ya, it would be, be, be, uh – you’d been buckarooed. And when you got buckarooed, you didn’t particularly care for it. He was, he was a very good man, also had a lotta [inaudible 53:43]. Earl Nicholson: [53:45] Well, that you bumped heads with – that you didn’t like or that you didn’t get along with or didn’t respect or… Karel Taborsky: I probably bumped heads with just about everybody. I have a – I don’t know if it’s a powerful personality or I’m just a gnarly son of a bitch. But I, uh, most people it seemed, worked really hard at not doing their job or getting out of it or sloughin’ it off to somebody else. My work ethic when I grew up with my dad, uh, uh, that was not allowed. You, you take, you take your job. You shoulder your load and you do it. And many of the times when we bumped heads, it was because of my perceived feeling that they were unwilling, to, to, to do their share. Earl Nicholson: [54:45] So, tell me, um, uh, the, the, you know, what the main change, uh, with, uh, with Fisher Body and, uh, BOC and, uh, and… Karel Taborsky: I didn’t know what part of the alphabet I was in. [laughter] Uh, we were Fisher Body. And then as we became one with [Chassis 55:04], uh, I was early in supervision at the time. And Fisher Body people, the Fisher Body organization was not oriented, uh, toward, uh, construction, etc. I mean it wasn’t, it wasn’t into time studies. You didn’t get an eighth of a man for this; however, at Chassis, there was a whole different culture over there, snooty SOBs, I always thought. I really had nothin’ to do with’m. I didn’t care for the Chassis. I didn’t care for the way that they always had a, they always had a procedure for this. They always had a rule for this. They always had a way to do it. It was all done on paper. They lived in a paper world. Fisher Body, at least with the maintenance crew, we do it and talk about it later. Female: Mm-hm. Karel Taborsky: Let’s get the job done. We’ll pick up the pieces. We’ll figure out how much it costs. We’ll figure out how to – these guys would, they would analyze things to death. And they wouldn’t do anything. But they were always better than us and that just kinda irritated me. Male: Chassholes. [laughter] Earl Nicholson: So tell me, Frizz… Karel Taborsky: I thought I thought of that. [laughter] Earl Nicholson: Tell me, Frizz, you, you, you, uh, you’ve worked in the old factory and uh, you, uh – I believe that, uh, you’re one of the people responsible for setting up the new factory. [56:19] Can ya, can ya tell us the difference between where they – we were at with the old factory in terms of quality and where we’re moving in the new world with the new factory that we’ve got coming? Karel Taborsky: As I said before, I’m not a book guy. You know, I, it, I, I, I’ve worked really hard at making my job so I don’t have to write reports, etc. In the old, in the old plant, I had everybody scared of me, so they didn’t have me do this. In the new plant, I do see that, uh, you know – it was – who was it somebody said, you know, if ya – those who don’t study history are condemned to repeat it. And in the new, new dawn, they have a lot more, um, book-work documentation. They’re not, and I’m actually [inaudible 57:08]. This, this shows that I must be getting senile ‘cause I actually support some of that. Because there’s a [line 57:13] in today’s automotive, uh, uh, marketplace. Uh, you know, a lot of these folks are eatin’ their lunch. And, and that makes me sad. Because you got a great bunch of people that actually if you really considered about it – the automotive industry had a lot to do with making America great – that and the satellite stuff: the steel industry, the plastic industry, the rubber, uh, the software, you know, computers and all of this stuff. This all comes from the cars if you really look at it, you know. And America bein’ the way it is, and uh, so, so disjoint-, so, so, uh, decentralized, having an automobile is, uh, somthin’ you need. And I, I really, you know, and I think, I think that we’re doin’ a good job. We’re getting’ a lotta, we’re getting’ a lotta trouble. [coughing] We’re gettin’ a lot of, uh, people lookin’ at us and I think that we got a good thing goin’, if we can just keep it goin’. I like what Randy did, inverting the, uh, the structure. Instead of a pyramid, we got a funnel. And you know where, where stuff goes when it goes in the funnel? It goes right to the bottom. And that’s where Randy is. He’s the guy that’s supposed to be able to take care of the problems. As they say in the GMS trade, (a little theme music here) you know, you tell us what you need to do your job and we’ll do the best we can to get it. I don’t want’m to lose sight a that. That’s what brought me into this organization. I’m wavin’ a flag. I, if I wouldn’t a said, “Pick me, pick me,” I could have been retired at 97 percent, I find out later. But I, I believe what we’re tryin’ to do is a good thing. And I believe that empowering, empowering the folks to, to actually make decisions and stick with’m is, is the best thing. Earl Nicholson: So, um, oh, okay… Josefina Martinez: I wanna – I, I’ve been – Josefina Martinez – I’ve been through the GMS training. [59:08] One thing that, uh, stands on me are, is, is the reason that we have this oval shape, like you said, instead of the pyramid – is it because General Motors finds its, um, it finds its, uh, it finds its way in the stages that it’s at? You know, the bankruptcy and the resourcin’ and all that, that they finally give, um, some of that knowledge for us, the labor people… Karel Taborsky: Uh… Josefina Martinez: …or the production people? [59:39] Do you feel that that might be a change… Karel Taborsky: …I’m gonna say that – I don’t think it’s, it’s – I think it’s perceived power that is not relinquished easily by management. The real power in the whole organization are the people. Um, having, uh, someone, uh – the GMS, uh, it’s – that was set up a long time ago. That little arrow goin’ in the target, you know, you saw that stuff a long time ago. That’s when it started. And that also started when, pretty much when they got rid of the – a lotta the good old boys. And this is my, this is my perception. They got rid of the good old boys on the, on the board, got some outside people and they says, “Hey you guys, you’re too rigid. You gotta flow. You gotta be able to adapt to the marketplace.” And they came up with the GMS idea. I think Randy took it one step further in, in actually co-, codifying it and saying, “This is the way we’re gonna try to run the organization.” I think he’s the first one. Maybe he isn’t. But I sure like it and the people like it. They like to, they like to be able to, you know, feel that what they say will be taken, uh, will be taken, uh, as a valid input. And there’s a lot of frustration. And that’s, you know – I was frustrated when I was there. I’m still frustrated. What do you think of a guy that’s got 25 years as a flippin’ supervisor and he hasn’t been promoted? Well, that’s the kind of trouble I make for myself. But now, in this new organization, hey, I’m one row from the top. [laughter] I like that. Doug Rademacher: That’s interesting. [laughter] Josefina Martinez: Thank you. Karel Taborsky: Welcome. Earl Nicholson: So, uh, Frizz, um, I know that the hour is late and, uh, you’ve, as you’ve said before, you’re bouncing, uh, 7 different projects now all at the same time… Karel Taborsky: Oh yeah. Earl Nicholson: …we have, uh, uh – I’m so happy that we finally got you and got you in here to, uh, to, to tell us your story about – but Doug Rademacher… Doug Rademacher: Yeah, well, it sounds like you’re tryin’ to close and I wanted to find out as you, uh, drive by here today and you see – we’ll call it the Fisher plant… Karel Taborsky: It, it makes me sad. Doug Rademacher: I see that already. [1:1:57] Would you share a little bit about your life here and, and… Karel Taborsky: Well, it just makes me sad, you know. I’m almost crying. But, you know, I mean I have a lot of emotion. But in five minutes, I’ll be okay, you know. It’s just – I’ve been everywhere in that plant. I watched, I watched building 3X get built. I watched 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 get built. I remember as a child, when plant security was there, riding our bicycles down through where the old cushion room used to be before they built the building 17 and 16 and havin’ the plant security guys chase us. I mean that’s my history. I used to look down where the marshaling area used to be by [inaudible 1:02:47] plant security is, through the windows and [coughing] [inaudible 1:02:50]. And that’s where the cafeteria used to be. I remember lookin’ at these guys sayin’, “No goddamn way in the world am I gonna work at an automotive plant and no way in the world am I gonna be an electrician.” I wish I would’ve decided not to be somethin’ else, you know. But I ended up bein’ this way. And I sure, I sure enjoyed it. I got a lotta happy memories, some of’m fuzzy. But hey, you know, [laughter] that’s life. And it, it’s a good, it’s a good place to work. And I like knowin’ everything about that place. Earl Nicholson: So tell me, Frizz… Karel Taborsky: Thanks for crackin’ me up. [laughter] Earl Nicholson: …yeah, so tell me, Frizz… Karel Taborsky: [Inaudible 1:03:28]. Earl Nicholson: [1:03:29] …did you ever climb the smokestack? Karel Taborsky: [laughter] Yes, I did. I climbed it ‘cause I was scared to death a heights. I went up there and, and that was before they had the, uh, uh, fa-, fall restraints on it. And I went up there. I went up there and, and looked. And, and, you can see, you can see a long ways from up at the top of that stack. And it took me 2½ hours to get down because I was so scared. [laughter] And I, you know – and that, and that’s the thing, you know. You gotta challenge yourself. You gotta take yourself outta your, your shell, your envelope. I would never do this for anybody else but you guys. Earl Nicholson: So… Karel Taborsky: You got, you got more out of me in this last hour and 20 minutes than anybody has. It’s because I love my plant. Earl Nicholson: So here we are, Frizz. We’re, we’re – I, I am assuming we’re coming up on the close here. As I look around the room, there are no more hands up. Um… Karel Taborsky: Everybody’s sleepin’. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: No, no. Cheryl McQuaid: No, no [inaudible 1:04:27]. [laughter] Earl Nicholson: Um… Karel Taborsky: Ha, ha, you weren’t, huh? Earl Nicholson: …and as you know, this – all this information is for the Michigan State Labor Studies Program. Uh, someday very, very soon here in the future, that factory will cease to exist and I mean physically. [1:04:41] As we know, they’re tearing it down. Uh, are there, are there any memories or words, uh, any insights, any warnings to the future for the people who are in the Labor Studies group that are going to, to view this tape? Karel Taborsky: No. But I’m gonna tell you somethin’. I asked my dad, who is 83 years old now and lives about four – lives in the same home that we – uh, that I grew up in 1955 or ’54. He’s 83, and I says, “Papi,” I said, “what are you gonna do? What do you think you’re gonna do when that plant’s gone?” And he says, “Well, boy,” he says, “I don’t know.” And I says, “Well, I know what you’re gonna get from’m when the plant’s gone.” He says, “What?” I says, “You’re gonna get some sunsets.” ‘Cause we lived so close to the plant, we never got to see the sunset, which is interesting. What’s gonna be there next? Doug Rademacher: Well, I just wanna… Female: [Inaudible 1:05:34]. Doug Rademacher: …think back to one quick moment. Since this is on yours, and I, I played ball on that back field behind your parent’s home. And uh, sometimes, we’d, we wouldn’t put the balls up on top of Harry’s Place. We’d put’m in your backyard and… Karel Taborsky: Yep, you went after those arched windows. Doug Rademacher: [1:05:47] … there was a fear back there because, uh, what did you have over there? It looked like a, a beast. Karel Taborsky: Well, it was a boxer. [laughter] But that dog wouldn’t hurt anybody. Uh, I know that the, the kids, that sometimes – ‘cause we used to have windows in the, in the little addition that Pop put on at the back of the garage. And that was, uh, quite a target. ‘Cause I was a little older then and I wasn’t – and as we graduated from the field down to Verlinden – because you could hit the balls further. Harry didn’t particularly care for it either when you’d put one out in the middle of the parkin’ lot and bust somebody’s windshield. [laughter] We all thought that was kinda funny. But as we graduated, we moved away from the little field, the little postage stamp field. And I was, I went out there the other day. And you could still see where home plate was. There was a – you see, still see that rock right, right by second base that you were always scared to death you were gonna hit and, and brain yourself. It’s still there. And a lot of it’s still in my brain, too, ‘cause I remember that. Doug Rademacher: I remember it well, too. [1:06:51] Is there, um – he said, is there anything that you would say to people in the future, people that are coming after us? Karel Taborsky: Well, today’s society, uh, seems to be pretty much, uh, throw away. Uh, we don’t build for substance. We don’t build for heritage, it doesn’t seem. Female: Mm-hm. Karel Taborsky: Uh, I look at the way this new plant’s put up and it’s nothin’ but, uh, cardboard and, and clothes pins as far as I’m concerned. I don’t see that place bein’ there for, for how long? Nineteen… Doug Rademacher: It was 1897, wasn’t it? Karel Taborsky: …well, no, that was, that was down [inaudible 1:07:28]. But like I said, most of the place was built in the, in the early ’20s and Billy Durant, uh, whenever his Durant, whenever he was doin’ that. That plant there, you know, has style and substance, you know. It’s an old, it’s an old veteran. And you’re not gonna see it in the throw away stuff we got now. Female: Hm. Karel Taborsky: And I guess that’s what I wanna pass on. Uh, regardless of what, um, what kind of environment you’re in, it’s, uh, it’s, uh, people, people like the union, people like GM, that, uh [stammering] – you can’t keep a building forever but you can sure try to make a heritage and, uh, uh, you know, and pass, pass that kinda stuff on, the kinda thoughts and the kinda work ethic and all a this stuff. We’re losin’ a lotta that. As an old son of a bitch, I can look back now and, you know, I’m gettin’ to be – [I know I was 1:08:21] the old man saying, “You know, these kids nowadays, they don’t know how to make change. They don’t know how to address an envelope. They don’t know how to do a waltz with a girl.” We all used to do that in grade school. That was part of it, you know. That was part of your socialization. I think America is forgetting socialization of the young folks in our God-almighty rush to, to make sure that we’re all doing algebra by the time we’re out of 6th grade. Those kinda core values, at least where I was and where I’m at – and most of you probably are – uh, I think they’re, they’re not being addressed. You know, that’s – I guess if that’s [inaudible 1:09:01] pass that on. Doug Rademacher: Sure. Karel Taborsky: You know, don’t be afraid to have a history. Don’t be afraid to, uh, inculcate some kind of heritage. Earl Nicholson: Well, thank you, Frizz. Gary Judy: Thanks, Frizz. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you. Doug Rademacher: Thank you. /hms