Gerald (Jerry) Taylor discusses his career as a production worker and UAW member at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Cheryl McQuaid: This is the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. We're at the Frank Dryer House across the street from the UAW Local 602 Hall on Michigan Avenue. It is January 26, 2006, and it's approximately 9:30 a.m. We are preparing to interview Gerald Taylor. First, let's state the names of the rest of the people in the room. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Cheryl McQuaid: And this is Cheryl McQuaid. [00:33] Jerry, could, I'm sorry, Gerald Taylor, could you state your name and spell your last name for us please. Gerald Taylor: Yes, my name is Gerald Taylor, T-A-Y-L-O-R. Cheryl McQuaid: And... Gerald Taylor: I li-… Cheryl McQuaid: Your address? Gerald Taylor: 2775 North Stine in Charlotte, Michigan. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:49] Are you married? Gerald Taylor: Yes. Cheryl McQuaid: [00:52] Do you have children? Gerald Taylor: Yes, three. Cheryl McQuaid: [00:54] Um, where were you born? Gerald Taylor: I was born in Ionia but raised in Charlotte. Cheryl McQuaid: [00:59] Could you give us a little bit on your educational background? Gerald Taylor: Uh, yeah, 56 years a hard knocks, 12 years a high school, a year and a half a college. Cheryl McQuaid: [01:10] And what did you go to college for? Gerald Taylor: Well I started out to go for accounting, but halfway through my classes, I went up to the office in Charlotte, or in, uh, Fisher Body. I told'm I was goin' to accounting class and what would be my chances a gettin' into payroll, workin' up there. And I was told [chuckling] by the gentleman in charge that I wasn't black, I wasn't Mexican, I wasn't a female and I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Right straight up... [laughter] Gerald Taylor: ...that's what he told me. So I said fine, and went right back to the line. Cheryl McQuaid: [01:42] So what did you end up goin' to college for? Gerald Taylor: It was accounting. I had a year and a half... Cheryl McQuaid: [Inaudible 01:47]. Gerald Taylor: ...of accounting... [throat clearing] Gerald Taylor: ...that's what I took. Cheryl McQuaid: [01:50] And what did your parents do? Gerald Taylor: Uh, my mother worked at a men's clothing store in Charlotte and my father hauled milk, went around the farms and picked up milk lotta years. Cheryl McQuaid: [Inaudible 2:00]. Gerald Taylor: And then he was a trustee at the county jail. Cheryl McQuaid: [02:04] And did you spend any time in the military? Gerald Taylor: Yes. I was a reservist from 1967 to '73. I was in the Navy Reserve. I did 14 months active duty in Vietnam. Cheryl McQuaid: [02:21] And why did you hire into Fisher Body? Did you know about Fisher Body before you put in an application? Gerald Taylor: My father-in-law worked at Fisher Body and I had a brother-in-law that worked at Fisher Body. He recommended I come over and put my name in. Cheryl McQuaid: [02:35] And that was right there at the plant or was that at Michigan [inaudible 02:37]. Gerald Taylor: It was right at the plant, right on, that's when you went into the plant and talked to the guys in there, Tommy S–, can't remember his last name. I want to say Burns, I don't know if that's right or not, that's the guy I talked to. Cheryl McQuaid: [02:49] Did you have to stand in line to... Gerald Taylor: No. Cheryl McQuaid: …put in an application? Gerald Taylor: No, there was no standing in line. They wanted bodies. Cheryl McQuaid: [02:57] And how long did it take you to get into the plant? Gerald Taylor: Well, I come in on a Wednesday and they wanna know if I wanna go to work that night. And I told them that I had another employer that I felt I should give notice to. I was working at a cabinet shop at the time and told'm I thought I should give him two weeks' notice. And they said okay, fine. So they said, they said we're not gonna give you two weeks but we'll give you till the end of next week. So about 10 days after that I hired in here and started in here the 8th of April. Cheryl McQuaid: [03:25] Do you remember the first day you walked into Fisher Body and [inaudible 03:28]… Gerald Taylor: Oh yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: ...where they took you and what job you did? Gerald Taylor: They took me right to paint department. Can I tell you a little story about this? Cheryl McQuaid: Oh please. Gerald Taylor: You wanna hear something good? Cheryl McQuaid: Yes. Gerald Taylor: Like I said, my father hauled milk and it was over west of Lansing, Ingham County. We hauled milk and we had one guy that we both picked up his milk. His name was John [Griffis 03:48]. And he had a driveway about as wide as this table and trying to back a truck up in a driveway this wide, you're gonna get on somebody's grass. And I got on his lawn. And he'd come out of the house and just chewing me out and I said why don't you bite it and he turned around and went back in the house and I loaded up the milk and left. The next day I hired into Fisher Body. This was on a Sunday, the following Monday I hired into Fisher Body. They took me to painting department. They took me out to see my foreman. My foreman was John [Griffis]. [laughter] Male Interviewer: Uh oh. Gerald Taylor: And they said this is Jerry Taylor. And John says, yeah I know him and he knows me and my name's bite it. [laughter] Male interviewer: Oh. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: So I didn't think I was gonna last at Fisher Body very long but… Male Interviewer: Oh goodness. Gerald Taylor: …John was a good guy [laugh] I mean [inaudible 04:35]. I hired into Fisher Body. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: [04:39] And what job did he – John put you on? Gerald Taylor: Uh, when I had first come in, uh, they put me to spraying, um, um, whaddyacallit, underbody, I was spraying underbody out in the paint department. Cheryl McQuaid: [04:46] Was that a hard job? Gerald Taylor: Yes. Cheryl McQuaid: [04:50] What was hard about it? Gerald Taylor: Well, you were in a pit and you had to wear a hood and you had this wand and as the cars were comin' down at an angle from above you, from upstairs, you had to spray the underbody with that and that was one dirty, messy job and that's [inaudible 05:10] you went into the paint department, that's where you started at that time, it's pretty much in that job. Cheryl McQuaid: [05:16] How long did you do that job? Gerald Taylor: Three weeks. Cheryl McQuaid: Three weeks? Gerald Taylor: Yep. Then I went into spraying lacquer. They had an opening and I went into spray lacquer from there. Cheryl McQuaid: [05:25] And that was the job you requested or… Gerald Taylor: No. At the time they, they just asked me if I wanted to spray lacquer. I said, sure. You gotta – back when I hired in here and I think it was a little worse even before I hired in, but if you, the physical they give ya, was if you could bend over and touch your toes and come up breathing, you were hired. And the first thing they would ask you is, you gotta buddy lookin' for work? I, I hired in with a guy, in fact, a pair of brothers, [Akin 05:52] brothers. They were twin brothers. And the one brother didn't like it here. Didn't like the job they put him on, so he quit. He went over to Oldsmobile. Got hired in. Didn't like the job they put him on and come back over here. He quit over at Olds and come back over here and didn't like the job they put him on, quit, went back over to Olds, the third time back here, he, they finally put him on a job he liked and he stayed here. But I mean, that's then, they were, this area was screaming for people. They were screaming for bodies. Cheryl McQuaid: Wow. Gerald Taylor: You know, I mean, that was, nobody wanted to work in the shop back then. That was, you know, and I, I, when I hired in here, being used to being outdoors, growing up hauling milk and doing that kinda stuff, being cooped up in a shop was hard for me. First five years I worked here I had a rough time stayin' here. I mean, if they come up and says they've got extra help, you wanna go home, they only had to ask me once, I was outta here. I hated it being here. I hated being cooped up. Cheryl McQuaid: [06:53] How old were you when you hired into Fisher Body? Gerald Taylor: Uh, 18. Cheryl McQuaid: 18? What shift? Gerald Taylor: Well, like I said, I hired in on day shift, because, uh, once I got into lacquer booths, I didn't know it, but the guy I was doin' underneath. I thought it was my job, but I found out that I was put on utility when I got here. So they took me everywhere. I did nothing but fill sick leaves. I didn't have a regular job. I just filled sick leave spots. I went from, uh, spraying [inaudible 07:20] underneath to spraying lacquer in a booth to spraying undercoat to spraying [inaudible 07:26] upstairs to hanging paper, to working on the sealer line. I think I was in here 6 months before I actually had a job that was mine, that was my own job. Cheryl McQuaid: [07:38] Did you like doing the sick-leave replacement job or did you like having your own job? Gerald Taylor: I didn't like it. While the one thing I liked about it, I hired in April 8. July 8 was when we were going down for changeover. Anybody that didn't have their 90 days in, they'd layoff. And if you got laid off and then brought back after changeover, they'd readjust your seniority date, so you'd actually would lose time because I was covering sick leaves, they couldn't lay me off. So I got my 90 days in the day we went down for changeover. So I got my 90 days, where a lotta guys got messed over by doing these replacements I was able to get my 90 days in and I stayed. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [08:17] Jerry, can you explain what a changeover is? Gerald Taylor: It's when we would go down to change a body style. There's – we may be down a week, we may be down two weeks. I've seen it last as much as seven weeks that we'll be down while they were doin' a body change. Changing the dyes, bringing the parts in, getting the body shop set up. So I mean, there was at that point that's what we'd call the changeover, 'cause three was a major changeover done inside the shop. You were pulling all the stock out bringing all the stock back in again, resetting jobs. So it was, it was a major change at that time. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Jerry. Gerald Taylor: Hi Mike. Michael Fleming: [08:53] When you came in, you talked about the different places you worked. You went in the paint department, um, was, was, looking at that amount of people in that big of a structure, was that kinda, what, what did that feel like for you when you walked in there? Gerald Taylor: It was something all new to me because I'd walked out, I'd been in a cabinet shop where there was six employees. I mean that was it. And, uh, so walking into here and seeing the amount of people that was here was something all new to me. And it was something that I had a rough time adjusting to but once I adjusted to it, I actually after five years I got to where I enjoyed it in there. I, crazy to say, but I enjoyed coming in here. You get to know the people. You get to get friends in here and it makes it a lot easier to come in. And if that, this place was a very friendly place to work. It was enjoyable. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [09:46] How did you, um, learn the job that they gave you, all of these sick-leave jobs Who taught you these jobs… Gerald Taylor: They had, uh… Cheryl McQuaid: …can you talk a little about the process? Gerald Taylor: They had people that'd break you in. They had utility people who'd break you in or intermittent relief man that would break you in. And they'd normally at that time, you had three days to break in on a job. Cheryl McQuaid: [10:06] And was there a good way to learn the job or a bad way to learn the job? Gerald Taylor: Normally, what you would do is watch the other individual do it, you'd do it his way and then adjust it to where it was easier for you. You'd learn it his way so that you could do it. And then you'd adjust it to your way to make easier to you because no two people would wanna do the job the same way. Cheryl McQuaid: [10:24] Can you tell me a little bit about the people that you hired in around, some of the things that went on during work hours that made it interesting made it… Gerald Taylor: The – when I hired in, like I said I hired in the paint department, and there was a lot of women in the paint department at that time. Uh, not like there – I mean, there wasn't in trim at that time. Trim's pretty much all male, body shop was all male. The women were either in what was left of the cushion room, which there wasn't much of it at that time. Or they'd come out of the cushion room and they'd come down in the paint department. They either ran sealer guns or hung paper, because at that point, we ran two tones. And you had to tape the car off, you know if you were doing a two-tone job. So you got to know a lot of people there and some of the women in there were ornerier than the day was long, but some of'm were some of the sweetest people you'd ever wanna meet. And I was kind of a guy that never know anybody, never really accused me of being wrapped too tight as it was. And I would have some fun with some of those ladies in there. They were just great. Uh, my, while I said my father-in-law got me hired in there, but he actually wasn't my father-in-law at the time we, I was engaged to his daughter, and, uh, I worked with a gal in sealer section. Her name was [Marvette Pointer 11:43] and she was the nosiest lady the good lord ever put on this world. She's a sweetheart, but she was just nosier than the day was long and a busybody like you wouldn't believe and she kept asking me about the wedding and, uh, I told her, I said, I'm sorry I can't tell you about the wedding and that just set her right on tilt, and she said why not? I said, well, I promised my father-in-law that I wouldn't talk to anybody about the wedding. Because my father-in-law was a relief man for the painters in the booth. His name was Charlie [Grimwood 12:11], and uh, so finally she kept bugging me. I said, okay, I'll tell ya, but you gotta promise not to tell anybody else. She said, okay, I won't tell a soul and I thought to myself, yeah, right. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: So I said, well the reason, I said, Charlie said the only way I could marry his daughter is if we had a nudist wedding. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: So it wasn't five minutes later, she went on relief and she was gone like a jackrabbit. Out in the sealer line, up one side and down the other telling everybody. About two hours later, my father-in-law comes out and says what the hell are you telling everybody? I said what? He says what's this shit you're telling everybody I'm having a nudist wedding? [laughter] Gerald Taylor: I just started laughing and she says, yeah I can keep a secret. But there was anybody at paint department that didn't know what was going on. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: That's the kind of stunts I pulled here and there. Just to have fun. Cheryl McQuaid: So… Gerald Taylor: Great folks. Cheryl McQuaid: [13:02] Do you remember any other pranks or… Gerald Taylor: Yeah, one or two. Cheryl McQuaid: … could you share with us? Gerald Taylor: Okay, there was a gentleman named John [McNish 13:09], that was a great guy and he had one of the sweetest voices. I mean, for a singer, he should have been a professional singer 'cause his voice was just unbelievable. And he would work in the booth and sing and everything else. Well, if he thought there was somebody new coming in, he had a little trick that he pulled on everybody. Well, what John didn't know was I'd hired in on days, and I was on nights at this time. I hired in on days and I spent most of my first nine months there on days or ten months, because right after that, I went in the service. And, uh, when I'd come back from the service, I went back in the nights in paint department. Well, John wore coveralls but he wore nothing underneath his coveralls and he's what you call a very well-endowed individual. So he would rip his coveralls open, haul his member out and go chasing after the new guy in the booth, just to see what'd happen. Well, I just wasn't the kinda guy that you chased. So I just stood there with my paint gun and when he come up, I painted him from one end to the other. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: And he stopped right dead in his tracks and looked at me and says you wasn't supposed to do that and I said, well, sorry. He'd come in about an hour and a half later and he says, tears were just running down his eyes and he says, you know what hot [inaudible 14:28] does to a person trying to take paint off your, your not a nice man. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: [Inaudible 14:33] but we got to be good friends and he was, he was just a fantastic guy and just all kinds of stuff going on in there. Just, it was kind of a crazy time. You had to be a little crazy to work in there. It helped at the time, but the people were out of this world. Very seldom you, you had difficulty with anybody in their at the time. It just everybody was kind of one big happy family in there. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. Gerald Taylor: It was enjoyable to work. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Jerry. [15:00] While you were on that subject, just a very, very quickly, talk – can you talk about some of the health and safety, um, um, strides that you had seen gains since you came in then and when you left, as far as you know, the paint and the fumes and the personal protective equipment you had to have. Gerald Taylor: Well, the paint at that time was not that big a problem. It was a lacquer that kinda hung to ya and they, they, you had breathing apparatus you could wear if you wanted to. Most guys didn't wear'm, because they didn't figure it was that bad. There was good airflow in the booths, uh, they had a watershed on the side that would actually help attract the, the paint dust to it. It wasn't that bad. As far as health and safety, it's something I really, when I first hired in there, it's not something I even was concerned with. There didn't seem to be a problem, and I never really heard that much talk about it. Towards the later part, yeah, it was. Marilyn Coulter: Um, Jerry, mines back to the man who chased you and you painted. Gerald Taylor: [laugh] Yeah.. Marilyn Coulter: [16:03] Now, you said that there were a lot of women in the paint department… Gerald Taylor: Right. Marilyn Coulter: …were there women in the lacquer booth... Gerald Taylor: No. Marilyn Coulter: …while he was chasing people? Gerald Taylor: No. Marilyn Coulter: So it was just men in there... Gerald Taylor: Right. Marilyn Coulter: …[inaudible 16:09] joke... Gerald Taylor: When you went in the lacquer booths, the doors were closed. There was a door that swung closed and you could see guys in there maybe from the shoulders up and like that, but you really couldn't see what was going on. It was kinda its own little entity in there and that was to keep it restricted for airflow and everything else, so… Marilyn Coulter: So in the paint department, they had the different booths the people could, so there wasn't, was it hard to communicate [inaudible 16:31] outside of that? Gerald Taylor: No. Marilyn Coulter: Did lacquer people basically stay with lacquer people and sealer people basically stay with sealer people, or did everybody get along? Gerald Taylor: Pretty much, yeah. Because it was all split up. I mean you had a section that was called the sealer room. Then you had the area out, that had some windows so we could look out in the parking lot and like that and actually it's where the old trim shop, the A trim was… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: …was, at that point. But, there was place where they hung paper, where they sealed off the, the door post. I mean, they taped that off 'cause you two toned. So if it was a two-toned car, you had to, you had to tape off, there was frames around the windows at the time, so you had to make sure you taped those frames off, you know, 'cause they were one color, then it's being done for the other. So but yeah, I mean there was different places that you were at, it was all paint department but it was spread over quite a large area in there, so yeah you were in different segments of it. You knew people from all over 'cause people moved back and forth, but, yeah, it was, it was pretty much compartmentized as far as who you worked with. Marilyn Coulter: [17:29] So do you have any other funny stories? Gerald Taylor: Uh, a couple. We had, we were there, uh, on days, spraying lacquer. Gosh, I can't remember it's probably I've been there about four years I think and the power went out and that building was dark as a coal mine. You couldn't see. You'd come out of the lacquer booths, there was doors that come out of the lacquer booths into this main aisleway that'd come down and so you fou-, you had to feel your way to a door and open the door and go into the main aisleway and then you could see a little light where the windows were, at the end, where they masked off. So you'd walk towards the light. And, uh, I heard this one guy running and I heard a guy open the door, and he ran right into that door. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: And there was about four guys knocked out cold, laying, they were getin'' walked on, layin' between the two booths where they had been hit by a door when they come running out of there when the power went out and they, uh, there was one supervisor with a flashlight, there, was trying to go back in and bring these guys around to get'm out of there 'cause they were evacuating the plant 'cause all the power was gone. A couple of gals that were hanging paper, uh, one gal started screaming 'cause somebody had a hold of her… [laughter] Gerald Taylor: …and it, it was, it was crazy. I mean it was chaos in there. It was comical. You, you kind of, you were a little bewildered about what was going on, but you couldn't help but laugh 'cause you hearing these guys getting knocked out, running down between the booths, you hear this gal screaming out there, saying she's being molested, and everybody else just trying to look for a way out of there. So it, it was about 20 minutes of chaos. But, lookin' back on it now, it was one of the funniest times I'd ever seen there. Cheryl McQuaid: Do you know, I'm sorry, Cheryl McQuaid, [19:06] do you know why the power was out? Approximately what year that was? Gerald Taylor: Uh, I'm gonna say '71, '72, somewhere in there. It was, it was a squirrel, went into one of the main transformers outs here in the power section and got in the main transformer and blew it out. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh. Gerald Taylor: It had knocked out all the power in our end of the plant. And even the safety lights they had hanging up, [dawgonnit 19:34] where they were aimed, but they didn't do anybody good 'cause you couldn't see anything. All you could see was the windows and once you found your way to the windows, then you could walk around the wall and go out through the paint mix room and get outside. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Jerry. [19:49] Um, you, you spoke about the lights going out and someone being walked over and the foreman with the flashlight. As you were in the paint department, had, did you experience any fatalities or any really serious accidents up there while you were there? Gerald Taylor: Not in the paint department. No. Michael Fleming: Are you, are you aware of any in the plant? Gerald Taylor: There was one skilled trades person, if I remember right, he was in the body shop and I can't say for sure when this was, but I'm sure it's while I was still in paint, that was working on the track and one of the dogs broke loose, the car had come through and hit him and I believe it killed him but it's been so long ago, I can't remember for sure. But I know, and I'm sure it's while I was in paint that there was a tradesman who was killed when a car hit him, coming down, there was an incline and he was working on the track itself and the car broke loose from the dog and come down and hit him in the head and I think he had the head injuries and I think eventually he died from it. Michael Fleming: [20:56] Can you explain what a dog is? Gerald Taylor: Uh, it's the, the cars come down the line on a chain. There was, there was, uh, brackets that, that actually caught the car, they were called dogs that moved the car, wouldn't let it go forward or backward. It kept pretty much in place as it was going down the line. So that's what I meant by dog. Marilyn Coulter: [21:18] Jerry, um, did you spend all of your time in the paint department? Gerald Taylor: No, after five years, I put a transfer in for trim. Uh, we were working a lot of Saturday nights and I'd ask, um, my supervisor, I was spraying [inaudible 21:32] out in the [inaudible 21:33] booths at that time. Uh, to go home that night because I had a family function, and he says yeah, come on in and help us get started and I'll let you go. So I come in and we started at 4 in the afternoon at that time and I'd come in at 4 and he was supposed to have me out of there by 5:30. Well a quarter after 5, he'd come walking back and I asked him where my replacement was and he says you don't have one. You gotta stay and I told him I wasn't staying. I said at 5:30 I'm outta here and, um, Joe had come back and he says I ain't got anybody and I said well you better learn how to spray [inaudible 22:18] then 'cause I told you 5:30 I'm outta here and he says that means you quit. I says no, on my way out I'm gonna knock you on your ass. You're going to fire me before I leave and he said you wouldn't and I said 5:30 you're gonna find out. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: At 5:30, I started walking outta the booth and I was heading right for Joe and, uh, just as I got to him and grabbed his shirt, he says there'll be a guy up here in 5 minutes to take your place. I said okay. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: So I went back in the booth for 5 more minutes and he got a guy up there and I went home. But, as I was leaving, he told me I report to trim on Monday. My transfer had been approved. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: So I all of a sudden wound up in trim department. Marilyn Coulter: [22:53] What kind of jobs were in the trim department? Gerald Taylor: Uh, the first job I had in trim was building and installing taillights. And, uh, that was a good job. I enjoyed that job. And let's see, gosh, I'm trying to think of all the jobs I've had. There've been a lot of jobs over the years. Cheryl McQuaid: [23:13] Could you explain maybe what the climate, what the atmosphere was in the paint shop compared to the trim department? Gerald Taylor: It was the same. Cheryl McQuaid: Same… Gerald Taylor: Once you got in and had a group of guys in your area and different guys that you've met, you know that you knew through the plant, uh, once you got to be friends with'm, it was, it was the same. I mean there was camaraderie all through the plant. Uh, always frogging around, always something going on. People just, like I said, you had to be crazy to keep your sanity in there in a way. And I worked with a couple guys who were characters. John [Ernest 23:47] was one and another guy named Ed Webber, we called chopper. And he was definitely a couple sandwiches shy of a full picnic basket. Cheryl McQuaid: You called him chopper. [23:55] Why chopper? Gerald Taylor: I don't know why. That's a nickname he always had and he was crazy. But, fun. We sure had a good time there. I mean we just acted crazy to keep our sanity. 'Cause, I mean, day after day, that's back when we were workin' 5 to 6 days a week. When I first hired in here, the first day I hired in, we worked 10.4. The next day I worked there it was 11.3, if women worked on the line, see, there, at that time, there was a state law that a woman couldn't work more than 8 hours. So they would send one line home early and take guys off of one line and put over on the other line covering the women so they could go home. Cheryl McQuaid: Um, I'm sorry, [24:37] could you explain to me what is 10-3 and 11-4? Gerald Taylor: 10.3 hours. Cheryl McQuaid: 10.3 hours? Gerald Taylor: Right, each tenth was 6 minutes, so you worked 10 hours and 18 minutes or 11.2, I mean, and I, first week I worked here I kinda thought maybe I'd made a bad mistake, 'cause that got to be some long hours. But, yeah, if, if there was time, there's one line would work 11, 11.2. If you worked 9.4, that was considered a short day. Back then, we worked some crazy hours. And, uh, for a while, I even worked paint repair when I was on utility and on day shift and we would come in at 5 in the morning and leave here 7:30-8:00 at night. Nightshift would come in at 5 at night and they'd still be working with us for a couple hours in the morning just trying to get cars caught up, around, they had a horseshoe up in paint repair and cars would go around that horseshoe and you may paint the same car 4 times because they'll find spots that needed fixin'. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Jerry. [25:42] When you talked about the 10.4 and 11.2, I don't think average people understand that when you work on a line like that, that you are bound and never know what time you're going to leave.. Gerald Taylor: Right. Michael Fleming: …and that was one of the things that, that is probably the, the biggest awakening is that you never know when you're gonna go home… Gerald Taylor: Right. Michael Fleming: …and you can't leave until they say that you can [inaudible 26:07]… Gerald Taylor: That's right. I mean, you would get a call normally around 7 hours. After you'd been working 7 hours, they'd call and let you know what line time was gonna be and if they called 8 hours, you'd hear cheering from one end of that plant to the other, 'cause that was a very, very seldom, you worked 8 hours. It was always, and I've said 9.4 was considered a short day. I may work all day spraying lacquer, come out of one booth, they worked the line, like I said, 8 hours, because by then, I mean, the word was women could not work over 8 hours at that time. And, when the law was changed, when the equal rights first started, and there was a couple women in the plant at that time, one gal's name was, uh, oh gosh, I can't think of her name, but I can see her plain as day, but I can't think of her name, but, she was a women's libber. You know, and she said that she should have the right to work any job a man does and do anything a man should have to do and we worked across from one another and she was starting to give me her spiel and we kinda got into an argument. I said, listen, I said don't tell me you're the same as I am, you're not. You're not the same as me, you're not equal to me. I'm not equal to you. But, I said, where I agree with you is, I do not think there is a woman that should not have a chance to do what she feels she can do. There's things that you can do that I can't do. There's things that I can do that you can't do. So don't say we're equal. But I think you should have an equal obligation or an equal chance to do anything you feel you've got the right to do or wanna try and do. After that, her and I got along good. But I mean, she, she'd give me her point of view, but I'd give her mine. And we got along good after that. But when the law finally went through, so she, well, she worked every bit of overtime she could work. But a lot of the women in that plant were madder than hell, when that law was passed, because they like getting out at 8 hours. They liked pointing the fingers at the guy and kinda snicker and walking out of the plant when they knew they were gonna be there another 3 hours. Now it makes them happy campers in there, so when that law was changed, the guys were cheering and the women weren't happy about it. There was a lot of'm that weren't. The older ones. The younger ones didn't mind it but the older ones weren't happy about it at all and a lot of'm retired. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: Jerry, [28:28] when you got transferred down into trim, were there a lot of women down in trim, was, like there was up in paint? Gerald Taylor: I'd say no. It wasn't until '70. They had a hiring in '77. That's when you started seeing the women come into the actual trim department. There were some in there but not very many. A majority of'm, like I said, were paper hangers and like that down in paint. You didn't see very many women. Marilyn Coulter: [28:55] Okay, when you saw them in '77, when the women started coming into the plant, did you notice any changes? How did the men feel about women coming into trim shop? Gerald Taylor: There were some that were not happy about it all and, I, they made no bones about it. You know, I, you know, my attitude was the same as like I, Liz was the gal's name, Liz, and I think her last name was Ward, but I told Liz when we talked, I, you know, and I had that same attitude. If they brought a gal in and the gal says she can do that job, as far as I'm concerned she should have the right to try and do that job, you know. Let her prove she can or can't, but don't say she can't do it without giving her a chance. You know, that was always been my feelings on it and, uh, so there was a lot of guys that they had to change their ways, uh, their playboy ha-, pinups that were on the lockers and everything else all had to come down. Some didn't take'm down, but, moved them inside the door rather than outside, it did change things, uh, but it, it became a different place to work. In a way it was the same but in a way it was a different place to work too. Marilyn Coulter: [30:06] Were there any other kind of changes that you noticed, like they had pinups, did they have to add more bathrooms? What kind, other kind of things they had to do? Gerald Taylor: The bathrooms, yeah, I, in fact that was, we had one long changeover. Uh, I can't remember the year but, now, it seems like it was '78. It may have been 7-, yeah, I believe it was '78. We had a long changeover because they did have to add like three women's bathrooms into the plant at that time. They did not have facilities. There was no, uh, in fact, uh locker rooms, you know, places, they put a new paint room in, in '84, and there was a women's locker room put in. Before that, I don't think there was a women's locker room either, 'cause their locker room now is pretty much all male. I mean the showers is one big open shower that you just, you know, walked into, took your shower, got dressed, and went home. So that definitely, the facilities had to change for what they were doing. Cheryl McQuaid: [31:06] Jerry, how did you get back and forth to work? Gerald Taylor: Well, I used to drive and then when they'd come up with this thing about carpooling, we, I started riding a carpool and eventually was in a vanpool but I had to get out of it because being a committee man at the time, I was a committee man in '84 and there's no way I'd wanted the guys to wait for me while I was doing paperwork at the end of the shift, so I started driving by myself and then I pretty much drove by myself ever since because I've been on one union job or another and rather than tie somebody up, I just drove. Cheryl McQuaid: [31:41] Can you tell me a little bit? You lived in Charlotte, right? Gerald Taylor: Yes. Cheryl McQuaid: What was it like riding back and forth with people? Did you like it? Or… Gerald Taylor: Oh, yeah, it was fun. I had a couple guys I rode with. They were good guys. One of'm I went to school with. I've known him for years. Him and his brothers and the other guy was a guy I met in there and worked with, so yeah, we had a good time. It was a lot of fun, uh, the only difference is they liked to stop and get some encouragement on the way home... [laughter] Gerald Taylor: …and I'd gave that up when I'd come home from the service. I was an alcoholic and I walked away from it and didn't touch a drop for almost 35 years. So that's one reason why I quit riding with'm and went into the vanpool was because I wasn't drinking anymore. I flat, uh, quit. I just walked away from it and quit and did it for, well it's been for 35 years I never touched a drop and now if I drink, I will have no more than 1 beer or 1 mixed drink because I can still remember what it was like in the old day, so I just won't do it. So, and that's why I went to a vanpool, uh, to get away from the drinking those 2 guys were doing. Cheryl McQuaid: And so the vanpool they didn't stop for encouragement? Gerald Taylor: No, no. We may stop for pop on the way home, something like that, but we didn't drink in the vanpool. Cheryl McQuaid: [33:02] And when you rode with other people, did you just chip in for gas, was there a standard? Gerald Taylor: We'd take every 3rd day you drive when I was in there and when I was in the vanpool, you paid him so much a week and I can't remember for sure what it was, I think it was $20 paid for the week to ride or something like that. But, when we, when I rode with a couple of other guys just every 3rd day you drove. That's the way we had it worked out. Cheryl McQuaid: [33:23] So when you first hired into the plant, um, speaking of how much it costs for the gas and everything, what kind of wages were you looking at? Gerald Taylor: Well, when I first hired in, I hired in at $2 and, or no, I take it back, I think it was $3, I'm gonna say $3.34 an hour and that was $1.60 more than I was making as the head cabinet builder at a cabinet shop. The first week I worked there, I took home three times the money I took home one week in the cabinet shop. Cheryl McQuaid: And that was as the head cabinet maker. Gerald Taylor: That was as the head cabinet maker, yep. So it was, it was a big change and the benefits. That's, that's another reason why I went to General Motors to begin with. Is I planned on getting married. I planned on having a family and I looked at the benefits and that's something I never really thought about until I talked to my father-in-law who did work in here, soon to be father-in-law, who did work in here and that's a point he brought up that I hadn't thought about but I'm glad he did now because it has made a difference over the years knowing that I've had that security for my family. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [34:39] Jerry, um, we know how you got to work now and some of the things you did at work, um, what did you do for lunch and breaks and things like that? Wh-, what did [inaudible 34:48] the areas… Gerald Taylor: Uh, they used to have what they called a wagon that'd come through there and it had, uh, milk, sometimes pop, donuts, hostess wrapped stuff in it, different things and when you, you had your wagons, and I can't remember when we lost those, it seems like it was about '84, maybe it was before that we lost'm, but, uh, you had a wagon in the morning, a wagon in the afternoon, where they stopped the line for I think it was 7 minutes, 6 minutes or 7 minutes, and that was your wagon and, uh, most guys brought their lunch. A lot of guys would go to Harry's across the street and drink their lunch. There was a bunch that did that. Uh, cafeteria. Some went up there. But, a majority of the guys that I worked with at that time brought their lunches with'm if they ate lunch at all, they brought'm with'm. Marilyn Coulter: [35:36] And so and now Harry's, I take it was a tavern? Gerald Taylor: Yes. Marilyn Coulter: Was there food there? Gerald Taylor: Uh, food, mostly burgers. You know, you could get your burgers, your hot dogs, fries, and they had beer and whatever, so guys would go over there and like I said, some would go over there and drink their lunch. I had one guy who used to work, ride back and forth to work with for a while, uh, Mike [Davids 35:57] was his name, and he was about as big around as a pencil, we would stop on the way into work and he would eat two whoppers and fries and have a shake before we got to work. He would eat his lunch before first wagon got there. He'd eat at wagon, he'd eat lunch, he'd eat at second wagon, and he'd stop on the way home and eat a burger and then when he got home before he went to bed, he'd open one of those big cans of Dinty Moore beef stew and eat it before he went to bed. And this guy didn't weigh 110 pounds soakin' wet. He was a character. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, uh Jerry. [36:34] You were talkin' about going over to Harry's. Payday… Gerald Taylor: Right. Michael Fleming: …was it pretty packed over there? Gerald Taylor: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Harry's was packed. Yep he had a place in the back where you'd go out and cash your check. I never did it over there but I know there's a lot of guys who did. At times I went over there and grabbed a burger for lunch, I'd see guys still going over there. Yeah, that was a regular, that was a regular enterprise there. I don't know if he charged ya for cashing the check, if there was, you know, what kind of a deal he had for that, but I know he had a regular little booth in the back where he set up and cashed checks. In all the years that he did that, I was never, could never understand why nobody tried robbing them. But I don't think if it, it was ever robbed that I can remember but why it wasn't is always been beyond me. Cheryl McQuaid: Mm-hm. It's amazing. Gerald Taylor: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [37:25] Um, so speaking of checks and breaks or stuff like that, did you get involved in things, like did they have like check pools? Football pools? And what were those? Gerald Taylor: Oh, there's, that's been an ongoing thing in there, uh, there was one guy in there that was a regular loan shark. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: And finally a couple guys caught him outside the plant and readjusted his attitude on being a loan shark. That went on in there. That was about '79 or '80 when that happened. Oh yeah, there was always check pools going on in there. There was always, uh, especially football game, football time, there was always football pools going on. All through trim. Once in a while basketball, there'd be some kind of a pool or some set up going with it. Um, holiday time there was always something going on. So yeah that was, but that was part of the camaraderie I think, you know, getting the thing going on. Some departments would have it and some wouldn't. You know, you get somebody that liked to do it and he'd take the time to do it and other ones wouldn't. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: But it, yeah that was, you'd get that and dinners going on, uh, somebody just out of a whim and say, hey, let's do an area dinner. So somebody would come up and down the line, well this person is bringing this and this person is bringing this, what do you wanna bring? Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: And they'd bring it. Um, holiday time it was a given. I mean you knew you were gonna have some dinners somewhere, it may be A trim or it may be area 10, each area was divided by 10, 20, 30, whatever and area 10 may be putin' on a dinner, area 20 may not. Area 30 may be putin' one on, so they'd go into area 20 and say well we're havin' one here and we're havin' one here, so you join one or the other, so. There was always dinners going on. Uh, always benefits going on of some type. There was always raffles. Guys would be going through raffle and [inaudible 39:07] for the kids, I mean I don't know how many fathers would come in and were selling stuff for their kids or raffling for their kids programs. Uh, if somebody was hurt, there was always collections being taken up and I don't ever remember a time where I ever saw a person, uh, refuse to put in on a collection for somebody, be it, uh, their spouse died, parent died, child died, whatever. There was always a collection taken up. Like I said, this place back up until, in my opinion, until it got taken over by Oldsmobile, back when we were Fisher body, this place was a family and they always looked out for one another. You were always, there was no white, there was no black, there was no, none of this racial stuff in here. You were family in here. And everybody's treated that way. Everybody looked out for one another. It was, you enjoyed working here because it had that atmosphere here, even though the hours may be long and it may be rough. I met a man in here in 1973 and he's my partner today in the construction business and I consider him as much my brother as one of my brothers. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: We've been very close, and he's a hell of a good man. One of the best, one of the things that I'll take out of my years at Fisher Body was having this man as a friend. So anybody can say that about where they work, I think it's saying something good about where they work. But I still feel that once Oldsmobile took this place over, it, it quit becoming Fisher Body, and it lost the identity we had as being a close unit. Because, uh, when Olds come over here, it just completely, I think their main aim was to go in and destroy the culture, the, just the way the people felt about one another in here. They figured it was better for the business. Well, in my opinion, it's one of the worst things they could've done. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: Because this place has never been the same. You never saw the camaraderie, the backstabbing, the fighting started the pol - the politics come in, which is something you never had here before and it just changed with them coming in. And I never saw it get any better up until the time I retired. Because of that reason. Cheryl McQuaid: Were you ever, Cheryl McQuaid, [41:34] were you ever… Gerald Taylor: No, I was never Cheryl McQuaid. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Were you ever a part of the union? Gerald Taylor: Yes, uh, in 1983 I started out as being an alternate alternate. When the district or the alternate wasn't there, I would fill in. I did that to see if it was something I wanted to do because I have always liked people. I have always liked being around people and I've always liked helping people. So this was my way of seeing if it's something I really wanted to get involved in and it did. Um, I started out I was an alternate alternate and I went to alternate, uh, from there, I went to committee, uh, from committee, I didn't last very long as committeeman because it don't pay to be honest to be a committeeman, it comes back and bites ya in the butt, so I just wasn't gonna change my ways and I wasn't gonna lie to people, so it's best I got beat. I think it's one of the best things that ever happened to me was to get beat. Uh, at that point I kinda dropped off for a little while. Then, they started having union awareness classes and I started and they, a couple people come up and asked me if I'd consider teaching them. So I told'm, yeah I'd give it a try. So I went in with, uh, gosh, I'm trying to remember who all was, Hazel Hodge was in it, myself was in, Deb McNichols, um Winston Travis, and there was one other individual and I can't remember his name but we all started training on it and we started and they had us training with some supervisors which didn't go good with me because I'd flat call'm liars right to their face and we'd have it in the meetings and I didn't think I was gonna last very long. Well then they each give us a presentation we were supposed to put on in front of the shop committee and some of the higher-ups in management, so we put the presentation on and, uh, management gave us scripted presentations to put on and everybody put theirs on and I ripped mine up and I put on my own presentation, telling'm what I thought about the program, what I thought about the way it was being orchestrated and I figured that pretty well shot me down as an instructor. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: But when it got all done, the union says either he instructs or we don't have any program. So I wound up being one of the instructors and, uh, it's one of the best things that ever happened to me 'cause it was one of the things I enjoyed doing more than anything I ever did in this place was teaching about union awareness, about the history of union, trying to tell people what their rights were, trying to tell'm don't back down, don't be afraid to stand up if you think you're right and, uh, I enjoyed doing it and it lasted, gosh I think a couple years and at that point I decided to run for education chairman and I, I won that election and I was on education chair and taught for like 2 years after that different classes the union itself put on. This wasn't management funded at that time. It was regular union classes. And, uh, I taught those and like I said, that was the most enjoyable time I ever had in the union and at Fisher Body was teaching those classes. They were fun. The people were fun. They were fun to deal with and we had a good time. After that, um, I went back on the line. They discontinued the programs so I went back on the line and was working. I've been, in that time I was in repair and trim, working repair, enjoying that and then uh I heard Bill White was gonna retire, as the workers comp rep and I had a couple guys come up and talk to me and asked me to consider running for it because the classes I taught and everything else and they said well you're a people person, you like dealing with people, and we need somebody over there who's not afraid to take management on or the union on to tell people what they can do, so I ran for it and got it and the last 7 1/2 years I spent there, I spent as the workers comp rep [inaudible 45:44] my union. Marilyn Coulter: Jerry, [45:48] can you please explain to us what a workers comp rep does? What were some of the things you did? Gerald Taylor: Basically, what I did as a workers comp rep is somebody would get, well I was workers compensation and unemployment chairman, so if they were, if we had a layoff coming up, if we had somebody who was laid off, or um whatever, or unemployment was involved, I got, I got them set up with the unemployment. I'd go meet with the people on unemployment and get all our paperwork around, trying get everything, and this is something I implemented, uh, and I think [inaudible 46:16] is still continuing it today. I would go meet with MESC and find out what we were gonna do, make sure the paperwork was there, try and get the paperwork to people in the plant, uh, I went through and met with the different groups in the plant, lettin'm know what was going on. What they had to do. Who they had to talk to. Make sure they knew to come over and see me and we'd get things going and uh so that was down on the unemployment. On the workers comp, it took me a year and a half to actually, because the guy who was there before me, uh, got pissed at the financial secretary of the union and walked out and just left me hanging. So I had to learn that job from the ground up. I had no training. No whatsoever and this is where I will uh always be indebted to Larry [inaudible 47:04] and [Neil][inaudible 47:05] because they took the time. Those guys were the ones that actually trained me on the comp job and they took the time that, if I had any question no matter where they were at and no matter what they were doin', if I called'm, they called me. Marilyn Coulter: Now, [47:19] were they union people also? Gerald Taylor: They were attorneys that the union had dealt with prior to me being there and, uh, like I can say, I can do nothing but, but, uh, praise them because I couldn't have done half the job I did as a comp rep without the training those guys gave me going into it. Marilyn Coulter: [47:34] So, now as a workers comp rep, did you only service your members? Did you have to service the families too? Gerald Taylor: The attitude that the guy before me had, was that you served the members and any UAW was his, my philosophy was I was there to serve the membership. Now to me, that meant the members and their families and I never turned down, to my knowledge, I've never turned down talking to any UAW person that ever came through that door to talk to me and I get calls from local presidents from Howell to Hastings asking me questions about what they should do on this or that or unemployment or if they'd have a question, they called and I always, I always made sure I got them the information, uh, learning the comp job. The one thing I found on the comp job and the one thing I prided myself in, in the 7 1/2 years I was there, was the fact that whenever somebody called me, I always returned their phone call. To my knowledge, I never missed calling somebody back who called or left a message for me and there was times when I've come back to my office and had 38 messages on my desk maybe an hour before it was time to close up the union hall and I would still stay at the union hall until I made every one of those phone calls because that was something that was very important to me was to let, because the one thing I heard as a union rep and different union jobs is the union never gets back with me, I never hear back from'm. I don't know what's going on. So the one thing I tried to do was to make the people know that they had a place where they could go and they could tell me something and know they weren't just talkin' to a wall and I tried to be as honest with'm as possible and I, I've had times where people would come into that office just screaming mad at me for what I told'm but my philosophy and what I would tell'm after they got done rantin' and ravin', I'd say you done? And they kinda calmed down and I'd say listen, you want me to tell you the truth or you want me to tell ya a lie and makes you feel good and then down the road find out that I'd lied to you, how much more pissed are you gonna be when you come back and see me? If you know what the truth is, you know what you gotta do to try and rectify a situation or where you stand rather than, than give you a bunch of BS to make you feel good that's not doin' you any good. That was the philosophy I had in that office and I think it's did me well because I've never heard anybody in my years there and I'm not saying this to brag, but I'm saying it because I think I proved a point that if you're honest with the people, if you could back with the people even if they don't wanna hear what you're gonna tell'm, they at least respect you because you did get back with'm and you did tell'm so they knew what they had to do from that point. So well I mean that was, that was my philosophy as a union rep anyway. Michael Fleming: Uh, Mike Fleming, Jerry. [50:28] Unemployment and comp and, um, rep when you were there, how was your relationship with the benefits people? How well did you all work together and talk about the benefits [representatives 50:42]. Gerald Taylor: The benefits people I had, uh, Gary McDaniels, uh, Dan [Bailey 50:49] when I'd first come on with benefits rep, Sam Hall, I got along good with Gary McDaniels, I got along good with Dan [Bailey 50:55], I didn't get along with Sam Hall because I found she had her nose in my business givin' people wrong information. I didn't buy that and there was times when I would do the benefits job's work, I didn't want to but I didn't have a choice because they were holding on something, they were dragging on something and these people needed pay while I was able to get through and if I could fax something down to'm, I could get people their pay 'cause that was the main thing. It's what fascinated me, I'm gonna sidestep a minute, but what has always fascinated me about our plan is the kind of wages the people earned. The benefits the people have and there are so many people in that plant that live check-to-check after 20 years and they'd come in and you know they're gonna shut my water off next week. You've only been on off work a week, how the hell they gonna shut your water off next week? You ain't missed a check up until just now. They're gonna shut it off. You know this routine and you knew a bunch of'm were pulling your leg. You know they weren't telling you the truth but all you had to do was call down [inaudible 51:59] we never got any paperwork. I'd say where's your paperwork? Nobody told me I had to call in for any. So sometimes the benefits reps wouldn't tell'm that you gotta call in for your paperwork. They thought it was automatically sent to'm. Either they didn't contact the rep or whatever the case, I don't know, but and Sam would get mad at me because I would, I had some spare copies of the benefits and I'd say fill this out. They'd fill the thing out and get it to your doctor and get it back to me and I'll get it faxed in for ya. [Go to Marilyn] [52:34] upstairs, she'd fax the paperwork in, chances are I could the get guy some money within a week. It's just, you know, I would do that. I had that latitude but that's one thing that always pissed Sam off because I would do that and she would accuse me of being stepping on her toes and I had people who, um, more than once, I'd tell her you know, I need this, I need this extension sent in, I need this paperwork sent in and she'd come over and say well, I really don't think they deserve it and I'd say well that's not your call to make and more than once I thre-, threatened to throw her out of my office with the door open or closed, I was gonna throw her out. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: She pissed me off that bad but she went right up to Gary Bernath a couple times wantin' me taken off, wantin' me fired, wantin' me this, that, and the other thing and Gary told her, he says, well there's a lot of people I wouldn't mind taking on but Jerry isn't one of'm. So, she, we just had – and when I signed up to retire, I figured she'd personally walk my paperwork through to get rid of me as much as she disliked me, she stuck my paperwork in a drawer and wouldn't send it in and kept it there. So I wound up working a month and a half longer than I planned on because she stuffed my paperwork and it never went through. Michael Fleming: Jerry, Mike Fleming again, [53:52] I just very briefly explain what a benefits rep does versus what you do because you did give… Gerald Taylor: Right. Michael Fleming: …a very good… Gerald Taylor: Yeah. Michael Fleming: …report back of what happened there but we don't know [inaudible 54:00] Gerald Taylor: What the benefits rep, they're, contractually we have benefits and these reps are there to see that the people are represented right as far as getting what they're entitled to under the benefits, under our agreement. As a workers comp rep, I'm elected by the membership. The benefits reps are appointed by the international or whoever. I was elected by the membership to do my job and my job entitled two state laws, workers compensation and unemployment and one thing a lot of people didn't understand and one thing I tried to enlighten them to when they'd come in, was everybody thought that workers comp was workers comp the same wherever you went. Every state in the United States has their own workers comp law and so the main reason why a lot of people come to Michigan and they would file workers comp is workers comp was one of the highest paying in Michigan as in the country. Only Ohio, New York, and I think California paid a higher comp rate than Michigan did. So a lot of people come to Michigan to file for comp and that's another problem we had with the comp in the state. So I hope that answered Mike in what the difference is in the two. . Michael Fleming: Thank you. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [55:11] Jerry, could you tell us a little bit about your workers comp position and some of the things that you saw go on in the plant. Gerald Taylor: Well there was I guess what you'd call a stigma about factory workers and about especially for some reason GMs had a good way of putting it out about their factory workers being nothing but lazy bums who'd come in there just so they could get out and draw comp and sit on their butt, um, it's a bad wrap that our people have got. What we've got going on now and you hear about it in the news, especially I heard about it just a couple weeks ago in the news, the biggest problem we have is repetitive motion injuries. Michael Fleming: [Musculoskeletal] [inaudible 55:52]. Gerald Taylor: And it's just right now, they're finally realizing what we've been realizing, everybody that deals with comp on my side of it, has been realizing that it's there, it's a continuous problem, it's one that General Motors would never… Michael Fleming: Recognize. Gerald Taylor: …recognize, would never say what happened in their plants. Their idea of taking care of the problem was to move somebody over to a different job. Well, if they've got the injury, moving them to a different job doesn't cure the injury. Uh, when I dealt with Gary [Allen 56:22] and the different people, when they, they used to have comp reps here for General Motors right in Lansing that I could deal with before they outsourced it out to whatever the name of the company is now doing it. Cheryl McQuaid: [Inaudible 56:33] Gerald Taylor: Yeah, and, uh, when I dealt with Gary [Allen 56:37] there's many times I'd go over it to him with a case and he would look at me and say you know this guys playing us. You know there's nothing wrong with him. You know that he's playing games. How can you come in, keep a straight face and want us to do everything with him. At that point I'd put 10 more files down in front of him and I said because of these other 10 right here that you know damn well were hurt in there, that you know will never be back again, but you do nothing but screw them over, make'm feel like dirt, do everything you can to demean'm when you know they're injured in there. So how can you sit there with a straight face and talk to me about one when there's ten of'm over here you're playing with. You take the good, you take the bad. Same as I do and so we kinda had an understanding but I was able to get a lot of stuff done when they had somebody inhouse that I could deal with. A lot of cases we didn't have to go to litigation on. A lot of'm, we, uh, you know if a person was off for a short period of time, I could get the thing done where I could get'm some money, they wouldn't get all their money but it save'm attorney fees and everything else and I could still give'm a chunk of their money and get stuff taken care of. Marilyn Coulter: So not to interrupt you, [57:40] so litigation you saying that you had to go court with these people? Gerald Taylor: Oh yes. That was quite common. Uh, and it was actually, it was a workers comp bureau under the state law, there's a bureau set up that you had to go in front of and there was magistrates there who would determine if you had a valid case or if you didn't. These magistrates are appointed by the governor and, uh, lately under the John Engler era, we had some of the worst magistrates, some of the far-right magistrates, not middle of the road which we were dealing with most of the time and it made it rough to win a case even though we knew we had a good case and these magistrates, I've heard one more than once when the doors were closed and the case was done, say I feel bad about it but they knew that they ruled the wrong way, but what are you gonna do, you can't prove it. So, the problem in the plant is repetitive motion. It's happened more times than I can count. Management's aware of it and they tried to bring people in to address the problem but they've never really addressed it. Anything management has ever brought into that plant, uh, QWL, I mean you go through the different things that we've been through over the years, uh, maybe you folks can think of someone I'm not thinkin' of but every time they have these organizations, they take the principle, they take the part of it that suits them and don't do the whole thing. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [59:03] what was QWL, Jerry? Gerald Taylor: Quality of work life. It's supposed to be where they come in, we work together, make things happen better. Well they took the part of QWL where you worked with management but when it'd come to management's part of QWL working with you, that, we didn't have time for that. We just want you to do what we think is best out of this. And there've been other things in there besides QWL. Um, I've been outta of there a while so I can't remember, maybe you can think of something. Marilyn Coulter: First time [build 59:30]. Gerald Taylor: First time [build 59:31] another good one. You know. It's, it's, we'll take the part of the process that benefits us but we won't take the whole process because we really don't think this is necessary. When you have a concept, you should use the whole concept or not at all. Their idea has always been we'll use the part of the concept we like that benefits us but if this doesn't benefit us, we really don't need it and we don't need to pursue it. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: And a lot of the problem we've had is the union leaders we've had for the last 15 years have rolled right along with management. Michael Fleming: Jerry, uh, Mike Fleming, [59:59] um, so I guess would it be safe to say that what you have seen in your time is that um the policies and whatnot that come through General Motors mostly benefit the company and very few um such as ergonomics or any type of standards that, that, that regulate how an employee, um, gets, gets um resolves an issue of, of, of physical harm in there and would you say that's more company oriented or more um employee oriented. Gerald Taylor: The ergonomics policy that they first started while I was in there was a great concept. It was a great policy. But the company only used the part of ergonomics that says that if we do this with a person that should be good enough. Not that if we do this and it doesn't work then we have to go to a different remedy. They'd forget about the different remedy part. They use the part as well we can do this as they interpret it. So it's always been, you know, we're bringing a policy in and we'll show the media and we'll show the world that we're, we're really lookin' to help our workers. Now we're [inaudible 1:01:07] help our profit margin. Workers is a secondary thing. If we can get'm out the door buy'm out and be rid of'm, put'm on something else. I'll give you a prime example, uh, I wasn't ever [international 1:01:21] negotiations but I've sat through a bunch of meetings where they did have negotiations that talked about negotiating, such as con con and different things like that and uh one things with this jobs bank is a prime example. The jobs bank was brought in. The purpose of the jobs bank when it was negotiated was to force General Motors to bring work inhouse for people rather than ship jobs overseas, ship jobs to Mexico, ship jobs out to bring work inhouse, to keep these people working but General Motors used it in a different way, rather than do it to try and bring work in, they did it to do nothing but besmirch the union as to, uh look at these people, we've got'm sitin' on their asses in the cafeteria, drawing 8 hours of pay and not doing anything. In other words, sha-, not shame on us because we can't find work for'm but we won't bring work inhouse for'm, but shame on the union. Look what they negotiated. Look at the money it's costing us. I mean this is, this is the way the thing has spun over the years. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: So you get one person saying one thing and one person saying another. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: And you know, I, I hate to sound like I'm a devout union man but after what I've seen in there, after 30 years of watching General Motors be mismanaged and shot down the toilet the way they have been, it's kinda hard for me to be gung-ho and support GM when I've seen what they've done to the workers and to the corporation. I mean from Roger B. Smith on down. What we've seen here and there's some workin' at that plant that I believe won't agree with me that was in there the last 30 years. We've seen the mismanagement and the complete stupidity of management over 30 years and you kinda wonder why GM, you know the saying has always been in the plant that General Motors will never go under, it's too big a corporation, but I think they've proven us wrong. Their stupidity has finally comin' to the front and their gonna prove us wrong I'm sorry to say. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 1:03:17] Jerry, we are going through some difficult times as a corporation. Um, we're surely gonna be a smaller company as we go forward, um when you were working in the plant, we had a lot of name changes that'd taken place, we went from LCA, BOC, to um well maybe another one or two, what do you refer to this plant as? Which, which name stuck with you the most? Gerald Taylor: This plant will always be Fisher Body to me. It was Fisher Body when I'd come here and it'll be Fisher Body till the day I die whether standing or not, I'll always remember it as Fisher Body and this used to be a great place to work until Oldsmobile took it over. When it became, uh, BOC at that time I think. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: Uh, it quit being Fisher Body in name but anybody that hired in there when it was Fisher Body knew what it was like when it was Fisher Body. It'll always be Fisher Body. It'll never change. Marilyn Coulter: Jerry, during the time, Marilyn Coulter, [1:04:15] during the time that you worked there Lansing was referred to as the capital of quality, there were people who bought vehicles because they knew it was made in Lansing. Gerald Taylor: That's a fact. Marilyn Coulter: What do you think it was, what do you think attributed, what made us special? What made Lansing special? Gerald Taylor: The quality that we built. The quality that we – back when this was Fisher Body, back in the early 80s even, when we were building the Cutlass in here, that was a car that was demanded all over the country and there are people, I've talked to different people when I was in California, when I was in the service, I talked to people and one guy says I'm waiting for my new car. I said well where's it coming from? He says, well, its, he say I ordered an Oldsmobile and he says and it better be from Lansing. He said I'm looking under the hood as soon as I get it and it better have that Lansing mark on the VIN number to let me know it's Lansing he says or I'm sending it back. He said the last one I had was the greatest car I ever owned and I've talked to a lot of people and they bought Lansing and same with the 88s and 98s when they were built up here. They were demanded throughout the country because of the quality that was built in. The people took pride in what we built but when General Motors combined it with Oldsmobile and it became BOC or whatever, you realized that General Motors was doing nothing but lookin' at the bucks. They weren't ca-, they could talk about quality all they wanted but we saw their concern for quality go right out the door. Their concern was profit margin, not quality and until, and until General Motors starts showing the workers that their concern is quality not profit margin, I don't think the workers will ever have the attitude that we had when I first hired in here about turning out the quality that was here. Marilyn Coulter: Je-, Jerry, [1:05:56] when we talked about workers you know there were some people who have some misconceptions or some [inaudible 1:05:57] even call them stereotypes about workers, what were some of those things that once you became in there and you got involved with the people that you found that really weren't true? Gerald Taylor: Uh, a lot of it was to me I'd never been around African Americans that much. Now this is a prime example. I've never been around that many, living in Charlotte, it was not, you know, an area where very many were there. Uh, there was two that lived by me when, as I was a young kid growing up. Two of the sweetest people I've ever met in my life. I loved'm to death but I got to know the different cultures. The different people. Uh, actually, the, even from the south, you wanna call'm hillbillies or whatever, but I mean I got to talk to different people from different walks of life and I, and that's one thing that I've always enjoyed about the plant, about, my union involvement, it's the different people I got to talk to. I got to know'm. Marilyn Coulter: [1:06:57] So it helped you in your own personal growth? Gerald Taylor: Very much so. Marilyn Coulter: [1:07:02] And did you find whether you were the education chair, what about the education level on the floor? Were there people that were educated? Gerald Taylor: Oh, compared to when I first come in there, you didn't need an education of any type to get in there. If you could read, sign your name, you'd come in. But I know if, I mean I was with, I worked with people in there who had teaching degrees. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: That actually felt it was better to work in there than it was to be a teacher. So, yes, the, the level of education in that plant right now compared to it was when I'd come in there in '68 is unbelievable. There's a lot more education there and it's a shame General Motors doesn't use it. They have a ton potential in there if they would just take the time to use it. Marilyn Coulter: Now, now you worked in there, you hired in 1968 and you retired 8 years ago, uh, and now the place, Fisher Body that you worked at, grew in, worked, helped workers it's closed and they're getting ready to tear the building down. [1:08:00] How do you feel about that? Gerald Taylor: Sad. I hate to see it go. It's progress I guess, it's gonna happen but as long as I got the memories, even the though the buildings gone, as long as I'm alive and got the memories it'll still be there. Marilyn Coulter: Okay, and um… Gerald Taylor: And the friendships and the people I've met over the years. That's important to me. Marilyn Coulter: …you were the education chair and workers comp chair for the young people who might be coming into the labor force, into manufacturing, or into the union, if you were teaching the class right now, [1:08:35] what would you tell'm? What'd they need to do to make it happen? Gerald Taylor: I think the one thing I'd tell'm more than anything else, is look back in history. History has a way of repeating itself. We've seen it happen time and time again and I think history's gonna repeat itself s'more. But, the people today, there's always gotta be a union movement. You know even though the majority of the country right now seems to think it's not important, it's very important because if people don't look out for people, nobody else is gonna. The government is so vast and so spread out that it can't be individual, it can't work for individuals. The individual has to work for themselves and the individual can work for themselves a whole lot better if they work within a group who cares about everyone and I think with the union you've got that. If they keep the politics out of the union and keep the union where it does concern about the people, that is the biggest problem with our union, it's the politics. If the, the powers to be ever get it through their heads to get rid of the politics and concern about the people and the other unions, not just the UAW but other unions too… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Gerald Taylor: …if they forget about the politics, forget about the power struggle and concentrate on caring for the members, I think you'll see a lot more people willing to joint something they see as something who really concerned about the people and not concerned about the politics to get where they're at. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. And one other thing before I turn it back over to Cheryl is when you, a little bit ago, you told us con con. [1:09:57] What is con con? Gerald Taylor: Constitutional convention. Before they go to contract, they have a constitutional convention and there's members that are voted on in the plant, uh, you put your name in as running for it and then the members vote to send a number of delegates by, that's determined by the number of people in the plant and a couple guys talked me into running for it once so I, okay, I put my name in and I got it and it was a great experience. I really enjoyed going out, I learned a lot. Marilyn Coulter: So, [1:10:25] this is UAW? Gerald Taylor: UAW, constitutional and the first one was held in San Diego, California and I went but the biggest problem is I hate flying, I went anyway, and uh then 3 years later, a guy dared me to put my name in, I told him I put my name in but I wasn't gonna run for it, I wasn't gonna campaign, so I through my name in and I wound up going anyway. So, I went to two of'm and I was fortunate, uh, and that's where, where I really learned about the politics of the union and I always have been bitter since going there for the simple fact that um the politics that are involved there. You don't have a clear voice. The, the constitution part of our government is, of our union, is ran from the top down not by the bottom up. You're not recognized until, until the union gets to where it's one person, one vote within the union to lead the membership versus the guys at con con electing who's already been designated to go, it's never gonna change and that's where a lot of this centers. When I was at the last con con which was back in '80, no '90, '90 I guess it was or '89 or '90, whenever it was anyway, uh, Jim [Rainey 1:11:46] had come up. He was the assistant regional director. He'd come up and we were sitting at our table and, uh, other Lansing unions I noticed you know whenever things run, they were playing golf or going here or going there, that's one thing I will say for our union I'm proud of, is when we had constitutional convention, our people were always at the table, always in attendance, and always there to vote. Marilyn Coulter: 602. Gerald Taylor: 602 and that's one thing I'm very proud of our group for doing but Jim [Rainey 1:12:10] come up and handed me a, a towel and uh he handed me a piece of paper and he says, uh, when [Beiber 1:12:18] comes up, we want you to, to wave the towel and you'll be recognized and we want you to, to talk on this subject. I looked at it and I says I'm not gonna do that, and why not? I said because I don't believe in it. I'm not voting for it and uh he said, oh, yes you are, and I said, oh, no I'm not. I said I'll wave the towel but if I stand up I'm gonna tell you what I think about this and uh he said do you know who you're talkin' to? And I said, yeah, I know who I'm talkin' to. [laughter] Gerald Taylor: But I said there's something you need t understand about me and I said it's one thing I've always felt, I said you're not my boss and at the time, uh, [Rubin Burkes 1:12:56] was our regional director, and I said he's not my boss. I pointed to [Ted Hartman 1:13:01] and, and to [Dick Bennett 1:13:02] and I said those guys aren't my boss, I said that tall drink of water talkin' at the podium right now ain't my boss. I said my boss of 5000 people in that plant and I'm gonna do what I think is right for them. If you gotta problem with that, I don't know what the hell to tell ya. He turned around and walked away and he never talked to me after that. but that was the attitude I had and I wished more union people would get that attitude. The ones in the union position. Quit letin' the union be run from the top down and get the union run from the bottom up like it's supposed to be and I think the union could turn itself around. Michael Fleming: Very good, Jerry. Uh, Cheryl? Cheryl McQuaid: Jerry, is there um, this is Cheryl McQuaid, [1:13:40] is there anything that you would like to share with us that we've not touched on? Gerald Taylor: Not really. It's good to see you. It's good to talk to you again. I miss the people. I don't miss management and I don't really miss the factory in a way other than I'm, I hate to see it be tore down but I miss the people. I sure had a lot of fun with a lot of people over the years. Cheryl McQuaid: Well thank you so much. Marilyn Coulter: Thank you for the interview. Gerald Taylor: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: Thank you for your help, thank you for your service. Michael Fleming: Yes, Jerry, Thank you for your time. Gerald Taylor: No problem. Glad to do it. I had fun. /ds