MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY – SHAWN NICHOLSON MARK VAN EPPS DISCUSSES HIS CAREER AS A SKILLED TRADES TOOLMAKER AND UAW TRAINING REPRESENTATIVE AT THE FISHER BODY PLANT IN LANSING, MI [recorder clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: This is Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. Today is Monday, July 24, 2006. It's approximately 8 a.m. We're at the UAW Local 602 fr-, Frank Dryer Greenhouse. Uh, my name’s Cheryl McQuaid. Also present: Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Cheryl McQuaid: And today we're interviewing Mark Van Epps. [0:23] Mark, would you state your name and spell it for us? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. My name is Mark Van Epps. It's Mark, M-A-R-K. Van Epps is V-A-N capital E-P-P-S. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:34] And what is your address? Mark Van Epps: 9988 West Clark Road, Grand Ledge, Michigan 48837. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:41] Are you married? [0:42] Do you have children? Mark Van Epps: Yes, I am married and I have 3 daughters. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:46] Uh, where were you born and raised? Mark Van Epps: I was born in, uh, Lakewood, California. My, uh, dad was in the navy at the time and I was raised in Grand Ledge, Michigan. [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: [0:56] And what is your educational level? Mark Van Epps: Uh, graduated high school and I've taken several college courses but I do not have a – any college degrees. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:07] What did your parents do in Grand Ledge? Mark Van Epps: My mother stayed home primarily and then worked at the public library and my dad was a powertrain engineer here for Oldsmobile in Lansing. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:20] Were you ever in the military? Mark Van Epps: No. [tapping] Cheryl McQuaid: [1:24] And what did you do before you hired in to Fisher Body? Mark Van Epps: I worked at Lindell Drop Forge. I worked as a die-sinker. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:31] Um, when did you hire in? [1:33] What was… Mark Van Epps: 1984, August of 1984. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:38] And why? Mark Van Epps: Uh, the Lindell Drop Forge was a fabulous place to work and it’s where I learned my trade but they were very clearly going out of business and I, uh, hired in to Fisher Body because they were, they were hiring and I knew I had to make a move, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:56] How did you find out they were hiring? Mark Van Epps: Word of mouth from, uh, some other people that I worked with at the Drop Forge. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:02] Was the hire-in process lengthy or…? Mark Van Epps: It was very brief. It w-, I s-, I submitted an application, got a call back right away and, uh, came in for an interview and was, was told to report for a physical the next day. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:17] So no long lines? Mark Van Epps: No. No. It was real easy. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:21] What was your first day like walking into the plant? Mark Van Epps: W-, my first day, I wasn’t even, I wasn’t even really sure what my job was gonna be. I knew that I was being hired as a toolmaker to maintain, uh, the tools and equipment on, on the production line but I – I'd never been in that type of a manufacturing environment. The, the Lindell Drop Forge, we made single parts and, of course, Fisher Body was a huge assembly plant. So I didn’t really even know what my, my job was gonna be but I reported at the Verlinden Gate and, uh, I was met there by, uh, my first supervisor, who was Pat [Finch 2:55] and Pat’s nickname was Scooter and Pat put me on the back of his scooter [sniffling] and drove me to about the middle of the Body Shop to what was known as, uh, B car track and he dropped me off and pointed on the other side of the line to, uh, a work area where there was, there was 3 other guys sitting in the – and sent me over there and that was my f-, eh, that was – I didn’t even know what my job was. If it hadn't been for the other guys, I don’t know – I don’t – I wouldn’t a found out what I was supposed to be doing but… Cheryl McQuaid: [3:25] Can you tell us what your thoughts were as Pat was driving you down to that body shop and seeing that environment? Mark Van Epps: I was, I was real happy to be there. I, I was really happy [coughing] to get that job. I wanted – it's something I had really wanted but I was pretty intimidated 'cause, like I said, I had no idea what was expected of me. Um, and I thought he was dropping me off to start workin’ on something and I wasn’t sure what that was but he, he sent me over to these – the other 3 guys that I mentioned and it was my first partners. It was [Marv Bruner 3:55], uh, Dick Reynolds and, uh, Paul [Bennett 3:59] who also were toolmakers and he sent me to that area and those guys showed me around, showed me what my job was. So, um, they made me real comfortable and, uh, invited me right in but, eh, it was pretty intimidating. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:13] What shift were you hired in on? Mark Van Epps: I hired in on the second shift. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:17] And how old were you when you hired into the plant? Mark Van Epps: I was 24. I, uh – my – I hired in in August and my birthday was in September, so I was almost 25 years old. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:25] Did you have any interaction with the people on the line? Mark Van Epps: Uh, yeah. I had lots. That was – turned out to be really what my job was, was to support those people and so I had a lot of interaction with’m. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:36] What was your feeling about the line workers? Mark Van Epps: Uh, they were obviously a, a hardworking, uh, good bunch a people. I had a lotta fun with’m and, uh, they were a really good group, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [tapping] [4:47] And how long did you do that job? Mark Van Epps: I did that job – I'd have to guess a little bit here but on and off, I've done that job my whole career, um, in various parts of the Body Shop. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:58] So most of your time or all of it was spent in the Body Shop? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. That’s right. A little bit a time in Trim but almost all of it was in the Body Shop. Cheryl McQuaid: [5:13] Were there any new hire initiations or pranks pulled on you? Mark Van Epps: No, not really. Um, it was a pretty friendly group that I settled in with, so, um, eh, there weren't really any pranks. Uh, it was a big change over time. The – there was an A line and a B line and the B line was the first to start up. The A line wasn’t even running yet, so when you weren't working on, on the line you were assigned to, you were usually off working on a job somewhere else, so the – there wasn’t, uh, there wasn’t any free time really. Cheryl McQuaid: Did – [throat clearing] I'm sorry. [5:46] Did you, um – what did you do – can you tell me what a typical day was like? Mark Van Epps: Yeah, I guess so. Eh, um, [tsk] a typical day was y-, I think the shift, if I remember right, back then started at 4:48 and so you'd, you'd come in, um, interact with the previous shift. You know, find out what – where the breakdowns were, where the problems were, kinda, kinda circulate through the area and look things over, talk to people, um, have a cup a coffee and then it was mostly monitoring the, the production line waiting for something to fall off and which is something always did break and, uh, then you'd, you'd set about repairing it. So that, that was a typical day. Every day was something different [belching] and, uh, it was – it stayed pretty interesting for the first couple years, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [6:34] Did you – what did you do for your lunches, your breaks? Mark Van Epps: Usually just stayed right there in the area… Cheryl McQuaid: [6:39] Brought in… Mark Van Epps: …and ate. Cheryl McQuaid: …a lunch? Mark Van Epps: Yeah, brought in a lunch. I… Cheryl McQuaid: Did… Mark Van Epps: I couldn't find my way a-, uh, early on I u-, the place, the – the Drop Forge was, you know, covered maybe 5 acres and, of course, f-, the Fisher Body plant was, was a-, you know, a couple hundred acres probably at least and, uh, to even go to the bathroom and find my way back to the work area took me a couple a weeks of, of wandering around, so I usually kept my lunch pail within sight, so I knew I could find it. Cheryl McQuaid: [7:08] What did you think when you finally did venture out into – did you ever go to the Paint Department, Trim? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. I walked around and o-, got a chance to sightsee a little bit, so, eh, the place was fascinating to me. I mean I, like I said, I came from a lot smaller environment and it was really interesting to see all the technology even at that time, uh, of what it took to man-, to, to assemble a car. Cheryl McQuaid: [7:33] Did you, um, develop any friendships that extended outside the plant? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. I had, uh – I already had, uh, a group a gentlemen that came to Fisher Body, uh, with me from, from Lindell Drop Forge, so I knew that group and then, uh, the, the other tradespeople that I worked with every day, I th-, you know, they were electricians and pipefitters and millwrights and other trades. And we ended up, you know, you'd, you’d bowl in a bowling league or, [engine humming] or play golf, you know, get out of work and go play golf in the morning or things like that and I dev-, I made a lotta friends in there, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [8:09] So w-, during your working hours, if the line was [tapping] running smooth and there was nothing to fix, what did you do? Mark Van Epps: Usually could, uh, clean up your area, sp-, r-, you know, redo your parts drawers, make sure, um, y-, you had all the spare parts you needed. A lotta times, we'd make spare parts or stage a job for something you, you know. The way it was back then particularly is you knew you had a job waiting for ya at the end of the shift. Something would break and you’d patch it up and you’d have to be ready to fix it after the line went down. Everybody else would go home and then the tradespeople would stay and do their repair job. Sometimes you’d stay till the day shift came back in but you'd spend that time staging tools and staging parts, uh, quite often in order to be ready to start working once the production crews went home. Cheryl McQuaid: [8:59] You mentioned that your father worked at Powertrain? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: [9:02] Did you have any other family that worked [at Fisher 9:04]? Mark Van Epps: I had – my grandfather [engine humming] on my dad’s side, uh, worked at, at Oldsmobile and, and was a, a Local 652 member. My dad worked for Powertrain Engineering. I had an – my Uncle [Dwayne 9;16] was a, um – he was a fixture repair supervisor and he ended up when he retired he was a maintenance superintendent at, uh, Oldsmobile on the 652 side. I had my Uncle Bill also worked in engineering here in Lansing. My dad and, and Uncle Bill both worked in, uh, Building 66 in, in the Oldsmobile headquarters that are over on, uh, [snapping] on, uh, Elm and Townsend. [throat clearing] Um, I had a – an uncle on my mother’s side, uh, that works, uh – worked in Flint. [recorder clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: [9:54] Um, did you ever do any government projects for line workers or…? Mark Van Epps: That was – yeah. Um, nothing really, nothing really big. Usually it was a, you know, helping’m out with something. Maybe they, you know, they brought a lawnmower blade in from home or, or a bad bearing or something and they needed a little repair work done on it and it was kinda one of those courtesy things that, that, uh, you had with, with the other trades and with the production people where, you know, eh, they – they're tied to the line and working every single minute and, eh, back – especially back in the early days, everybody’s working 10 hours a day and you're working Saturdays. A lotta times you're working Sundays. You're short a time. So they'd, you know, they'd bring stuff in. If you had a few minutes, you’d help’m out and fix something for’m f-, eh, you know, for maybe a little project they had at home or something along those lines, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [10:45] Did you ever, um, make any kinda tool, uh, that wasn’t an everyday tool, it was something to assist them to help their job easier or…? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Yeah, we – that was part of a toolmaker’s job, is, eh – and once again, especially in the early days, a lotta stuff was done with hand fixtures [engine humming] and, eh, eh, you know, everybody was always looking for a way to take some of the workload off’a the person that had to use that fixture all day long. So, eh, eh, I can't think of a specific example but we were constantly, uh, modifying or, or adjusting things to make the jobs a little more f-, user friendly, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [11:25] Has a coworker impacted your family life at all? [tapping] Mark Van Epps: I can't think of a specific example. I've got friends that, um – friends that I've made at work, um, that have gotten to know my family and vice versa but so I guess there's been an impact in that way. It's broadened our, our circle of friends a lot and, and, uh, had a lotta fun with, with the, the people that I worked with [clicking] but other than that, not really. Cheryl McQuaid: [11:52] Did you view your coworkers as brothers and sisters? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Especially in the plant and on the job. Um, eh, eh, Team Build is the big, [tapping] the big deal today but it was always a team, [squeaking] um, for most of us [clanking] in some form or fashion. Cheryl McQuaid: Uh, I'd like to know a little bit about once again the area that you were in. [12:15] Did you participate in departmental dinners, uh, Christmas dinners? [sniffling] [12:21] Was that something that the Body Shop would enj-, would invite you into and department dinner? [12:27] Did Skilled Trades have their own dinners? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. There was a, there was a pretty broad spectrum of those types of things. I worked all over the Body Shop during my, my time on the plant floor and, uh, [background conversation] probably the most interesting place woulda been the door shuttle, which was, um, kind of a new invention in the, in the late ’80s, early ’90s. Uh, they, they designed and manufactured a, a tool that was s-, just for puttin’ the header on a door and the header, of course, is the s-, band that rolls around the top of the door that – and closes the window. And it seems like a really simple process but they, they built this enormous, eh, really complex machine and everybody that worked on the door shuttle was working 10 or 12 hours a day. Eh, the – it broke constantly and for – whether you were production or, or a, or a salaried person or a maintenance person, everybody on the door shuttle got to be really close friends and, and to the point of where the, the skilled trades guys were running relief for the production people because they were working so much. So we all took turns doing each other’s jobs. Uh, but that – in that environment, eh, you know, we had dinners all the time over there. Every time, eh, you know, at least once a week, somebody’d bring in fish they caught or s-, or a deer they shot or there was always something [background conversation] that people were bringing in, you know, to share with their coworkers. Um, kind of on a broader scale, as, as I moved around the Body Shop, there was [clanking] always an, an area dinner whether it was a holiday, you know, before Thanksgiving, before Christmas or Labor Day, Easter, all those things. There’d be a dinner, you know, in the area and then, eh, quite often the Maintenance Department would have a – have some kind of a big dinner also, so and, of course, [clanking] retirements, [squeaking] always had a big party for retirements. Cheryl McQuaid: [14:16] How did you find the area, the space, the – to, to have these dinners? [14:21] I mean, how did you keep things hot? [14:23] How did you keep’m cold? Mark Van Epps: Crockpot or back then we used to have – we had, we had made an – taken an old toolbox and we made an oven out of it, a warmer. Um, I don’t remember what w-, I think we used a big light – spotlight for a, a heating element but we could – a lotta times for a really big dinner, we'd go [clanking] like almost have it catered, get chicken or something, eh, eh, a whole buncha chicken from a caterer and then bring it in and keep it in the warmer and everybody would bring a dish to pass. So cooler fulla pop and then a dish to pass. So it was pretty simple, just like any picnic or potluck might be. Cheryl McQuaid: [14:58] So it was pr-, the management didn’t have a problem with this? Mark Van Epps: W-, most of the areas I was in management participated. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. [15:06] What about plant vending, um, people that sold food items? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. There was a lot. There was quite a bit of that. You know, a lotta pop salesmen. Um, the third shift, when I was on midnights, there was a, a millwright that had a store [engine humming] back in, uh, one of the cribs and it was not a for-profit store. He sold, he sold pop and candy and gum and all kinds a stuff but he, uh – every [engine humming] fri-, one Friday a month – he’d – he had made enough money, he had bought a popcorn machine and one Friday a month, he would make popcorn and give it away to anybody that wanted it. So, eh, everybody from all over the Body Shop could smell that popcorn and they'd come and get it. And then, uh, he would have pizza parties or, you know, something along those lines and, and then whatever money was left after that, he would always donate to a charity of some sort. So it was, it was fun for the, for the, uh, employees to be able to have an alternative to kind of a crummy vending machine. Cheryl McQuaid: You mentioned, um, [thumping] Pat [Finch 16:13] was your first supervisor. Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: And I never worked for Pat [Finch 16:17]; however, I did know him and liked him. He was very nice man. Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: [16:21] Um, what made a good or a bad supervisor in your opinion? Mark Van Epps: In my opinion, uh, the good supervisor was a supervisor that trusted you to do your job and didn’t worry about what you were doing every second. The bad supervisor was the one that took your chair away because it sent the wrong message or, uh, didn’t support you with the right tools to do your job or, or w-, was, was constantly questioning your, your, uh, not your, not your ability to do your job but your work ethic. You know, the, the person that would come around, why are you doing that; what are you doing; how come you're not over there. It's the – it was the – I tell you what the best supervisor I think I ever had was a guy named Don Davis [engine humming] and Don never – you never had to worry about whether Don was gonna follow you around on the job and I tell ya, people would go out of their way to do, to do a good job for Don because they liked him so much and they knew that they didn’t have to worry about, about whether or not Don was w-, you know, was protecting them or had their back as, as you might say. So that was the difference to me. Cheryl McQuaid: [17:29] Could [clanking] you tell us about, um, your worst supervisor? Mark Van Epps: I don’t wanna mention his name but, yeah, I had a really bad supervisor and I already kinda described him. He would, you know, he would be, he would be at your work area about 1 minute after starting time, you know, with a threat and a promise, uh, and, eh, eh, you know, [tapping] he was just – he just was – his expectations o-, of his people were very unrealistic. Eh, eh, you know, uh, it was more important for him that you looked busy than you actually be busy and everybody knew it. Everybody knew that, [engine humming] that if something went wrong he’d – he would blame you and he would never take any responsibility for it himself. He would write people up, um, just because he didn’t like’m and, and, uh, he, he frankly had no credibility either with his hourly people and he didn’t have any credibility with the other management people either, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [18:26] So did you go outta your way to do a good job for him? Mark Van Epps: I went outta my way to avoid him. [laughter] So o-, you know – and, and I always, I always figured, [tapping] I always figured I had a job to do no matter who I was working for. So I came to work the same day, eh, and I worked, eh – I did my job the same way no matter who I was working for 'cause I was working for the people [tapping] who had to use the tools, uh, in the area I supported and I wasn’t working – I wasn’t gonna make them pay because the guy I was working for wasn’t, wasn’t a good supervisor. So I came to work the same way every day but I would avoid a person like that and, and, uh, just I, I would – I wouldn't do anything to help’m and help, you know – anything out of the ordinary but I wouldn't make someone else suffer because my relationship with him was bad. [clanking] Cheryl McQuaid: [19:17] Could you share with us one of your best memories of Fisher Body? Mark Van Epps: Let me see. I think some of my best memories – let's see. I, I, I really liked my job and I really liked for the most part the people that I was working with. Probably my best memories woulda been, uh, [engine humming] maybe when, uh, in the mid [tapping] to late ’90s, um, I was on a bowling league with a, with a couple of, uh, guys that had retired. It was [Jerry Post 19:56] who was a retired electrician, uh, Willie Campbell who was a retired millwright and then there was a guy named Keith Sheldon whose nickname was Red Wing and Red Wing was a material driver. And there was the 4 of us and then every year we'd look for a fifth person. Used to – well Scott Bates was a production employee was on our bowling team on and off for a couple years. But we used to – I used to bowl with those guys and they were all good bowlers and they were all nice guys and, and, eh, I liked it because they were the kinda guys that you go bowl, drink 2 or 3 beers and then go home. They weren't stay at the bowling alley all night. Th-, you know – and th-, and they didn’t get in any trouble and [rattling] they liked to win but if they didn’t, you know, it wasn’t a big deal to’m. Um, they – and they were fun guys to work with too before they retired. And then we would go outta town and bowl in city tournaments, state tournaments and the u-, we always bowled in the UAW tournaments and stuff. So I think, I think makin’ – I made the friends in the plant but the m-, the – some of the memories I guess were from the activities outside of the plant but. Cheryl McQuaid: Lansing has always been known as the Capitol of Quality. [21:05] Why do you think it's called that? Mark Van Epps: I think it's called that because it's, it's legit. I think, I think that Lansing has always built a quality product and I've always thought that the hourly workforce, [engine humming] um, has always done whatever they could or whatever they had to do to build a quality car. And I've always thought, um, you know, it's not a contest but when it comes to change, you have management needs to change and the hourly people needs to change and I always thought the hourly people were more willing – ready, willing and able to change and do the things that were needed to build a quality car than management was. And management was always ready at some levels but they had p-, they had a harder time adjusting to changes than [tapping] the production people did or than the maintenance people did. And I think, I think it's known as the Capitol of Quality because of the extortionary links that people would go to to make sure that their jobs were done right. Cheryl McQuaid: [22:06] Mark, could you tell us what your job title is now? Mark Van Epps: Currently my job title is the Joint Training Representative. Cheryl McQuaid: [22:13] And when did you take this position? [22:15] Is this right after you left tooling? Mark Van Epps: Uh, well I, I, like I said, I hired in in 1984 and I can't remember all a the dates without looking at my resume but I worked there, I think it musta been in the late ’80s, maybe 1990, [tapping] somewhere in that range, they had posted the job for a Suggestion Analyst and I was starting to get kinda bored, you know, and looking for something different or maybe a different perspective and it was a temporary position. They wor-, went in 2-year cycles. So I applied and [tapping] and I got selected f-, as a, uh, as a Suggestions Analyst, is what they called it. Um, did that, eh, for a couple a years and then went back to, uh, being a toolmaker. Um, the next appointed job I took, they had a, a committee called a Work Practice Committee, uh, that was set up to help, uh, tradespeople work on lines of demarcation issues. So I, I went on the Work Practice Committee for a couple a years. From that, I went into, uh, [clanking] the training activity. Um, they, they eliminated the Work Practice Committee through the, uh, local negotiations that – when we had a local agreement, uh, or local settlement and, uh, but they transitioned me into a needs [clanking] analysis person for, uh, the training activities. So I did that for probably 4 or 5 years. Now the Joint Training Representative jobs really started about 2 years ago and my predecessor was Kevin Goff and Kevin, uh, retired just at the end [clanking] June, um, [tsk] and they assigned me to work with Kevin during this, uh, this launch for the Delta Plant in order to learn the Joint Training Representative’s job. So it's really – I've been doing it for like 2 years. Um, it – but Kevin was still around as a mentor for me, so. Cheryl McQuaid: You mentioned, uh, Lines of Demarcation. [24:16] What are Lines of Demarcation? [24:18] What is [that job 24:18]? Mark Van Epps: Lines of Demarcation are the work rules that exist between skilled trades, uh, management people and production people that helps, uh, helps b-, all parties understand what your job is and what your job isn't and f-, and an ex-, and mostly [papers rustling] they're designed around, uh, safety of the employee. You know, an electrician, for example, is trained to perform, uh, specific functions and a lotta what they do is dangerous. Same thing with a millwright or toolmaker or a pipefitter. Um, uh, an electrician’s job assignment [throat clearing] is to do the things they're trained to do and in most instances no one else should be doing that work because it's just not safe for’m to do it. Well occasionally there, there’s issues that come up and there’s disagreement over who should do what work or there’s, there’s j-, it's just not real clear. So the Lines of Demarcation or the Work Practices Committee was employed to review, um, the content of, of some of the work, mostly the skilled trades work and help the Shop Committee make a decision on what would be the most appropriate trade to assign that work to. Cheryl McQuaid: [25:29] And that was mostly skilled trades and did you – did that reach into the production area? Mark Van Epps: A little bit but not very often. Cheryl McQuaid: And then you’d mentioned Needs Analysis. [25:39] Could you explain that job a little bit? Mark Van Epps: Needs Analysis is – [clanking] was a training function and the, the, the jest of it would be, um, I, I [guess 25:52] one of the, one of the biggest jobs I did while I was on there was to write, uh, task and needs analysis documents for all the skilled tradespeople in the plant. I didn’t do this by myself. I had some other people helping me. But the idea was to take, for example, a toolmaker’s job and make a list of all the tools a toolmaker would need to use to do their job, all the skills that that person would have to possess in order to be – to, to perform at a high level and all the knowledge that they would have to, to have in order to perform at a high level. So that’s what a, a – needs analysis would identify all of those [tapping] things and then it would also, [engine humming] um, you would use that along with a, um, [tsk] a skills assessment to help identify training needs for an individual, so. Cheryl McQuaid: You mentioned safety. [26:44] Um, did you ever see anybody, any coworkers get hurt in the plant? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. A, um – I'm trying to think. I saw a – yeah. I've seen 3 or 4 things. I saw a guy, uh, [engine humming] in a manlift raising himself up, an electrician, had his hand on the rail of the manlift and, uh, pinched his fingers between the rail on the hand lift and a beam in the ceiling. Um, I saw a guy, uh, rigging a transformer with the forks on a fork truck trying – lifting a transformer and he was using an I-beam and the beam fell off the forks and hit him on the head, which didn’t – surprisingly it didn’t hurt him very bad but you [snapping] asked me [laughter] so I did s-… Cheryl McQuaid: Sounds painful. Mark Van Epps: I did see that. And then, uh, probably wor-, the worst one was an electrician that got, um, got caught in, in part of the mechanical devices of an underbody press and I didn’t see the accident but, um, [background conversation] [tapping] he was, he was in a place where no one could see’m and we heard’m yelling and went up and found’m and he was, he was injured. He was hurt really bad. Um, eh, he… Cheryl McQuaid: [27:57] Mike [Quintery 27:57]? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. And he, you know, he lived [engine humming] thank – very thankfully 'cause he’s a great guy and, uh – but that was really, that was really, really sobering. That, that particular incident there was, was really scary. Cheryl McQuaid: [28:10] And what do you think about the Safety Department in the plant? I've always heard that for every accident, there's a new safety rule. [28:16] Is that how it works? [28:18] Do you think these accidents [inaudible 28:20]? Mark Van Epps: I think that, I think that may be – might've been the truth at one time but I don’t think it is anymore. When I, when I hired in to Fisher Body in 1984, we had a better safety program at Lindell Drop Forge than we had at, at the – at Fisher Body. Eh, you know, and in the Drop Forge, you would go work on a press or, or, you know, some d-, similar tool and they were very strict rules about lockout and about, uh, you know, isolating the mechanical, eh, you know, movement and, and if you didn’t, if you didn’t follow the rules, you got fired and that was just it. And then I hir-, when I got hired at Fisher Body, there wasn’t even a place to put a lock. They didn’t even have locks. [tapping] You would – I mean, you, you had all this – and I don’t know how it ended up that way but you had all this automated equipment and, uh, you would go into, uh, into a tool and, and there wasn’t even any place to put a lock. You had a red tag that you hung over the start button so that no one would push the start button while you were in there, [background conversation] which happened to me. Cheryl McQuaid: [Inaudible 29:27]. Mark Van Epps: That… Cheryl McQuaid: [29:29] That happened? Mark Van Epps: That’s an interesting story. Yeah. Yeah. I had – there was a tool called the milling drill, which the car would come in and it, and it closed up and [tapping] it was big gates that closed on both sides [tapping] of the car, clamped the car up and then it would drill 2 holes and machined off a flat spot where they would mount the screws for the bottom of the front fender. Well the drills always broke or got dull and you hadda change’m. So I had shut it off and I turned off the transfer that ran the car in there and I went in to change the drills. Well while I was standing in there [tapping] and you had to stand in there and straddle. You were pretty much trapped in the tool. While I was in there changing the drills, [tapping] I heard the transfer come on and I looked up and there was a car coming down the line into the station that I was standing in. So I had to – I had just enough time to climb inside of the car while the mac-, while the tool did – ran its process and then I had to ride it through 3 more stations before I could get out on the platform where the production people worked. That was pretty… Jerri Smith: [30:29] So who turned it on? Mark Van Epps: A, a supervisor. A su-, a supervisor w-, had walked over there and moved my tag and turned it on and then, [tapping] and then left. Cheryl McQuaid: Thankfully you weren't… Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: …hurt. Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: [30:44] So did – when did you start seeing a change in the safety at Fisher Body? Mark Van Epps: I th-, eh, it mostly was an engineering issue. You know, in 1984 was a huge changeover in-, into lots of automated equipment. [tapping] I think the next one was in ’92 or ’87 was, ’87 was – [thumping] eh, every time they brought in more automation, it got better and, and – but they never could seem to quite [tapping] get everything interlocked so that using lockout was practical. Um, the – there was the Robogate system [tapping] in the car track area where I first started w-, working took like 26 locks to isolate it, which w-, you know, it's just not a practical way to work. Uh, but I think, I think there was always a desire on management’s part and, and on the hourly people’s part to be able to use lockout effectively but they never could engineer it into the system well enough to, to really make it a hundred percent and I think we're probably there with this new Delta project. Cheryl McQuaid: I th-, um, I think we s-, interviewed Steve that was with Lockout and he had said [engine racing] that there were – because there were so many… Mark Van Epps: [31:55] Steve Pettinger? Cheryl McQuaid: Yeah. Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: There were so many locks, it was just… Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: …too cumbersome… Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: …to use. Mark Van Epps: See – right. At Fisher Body, we were always retrofitting a new tool into a, into a site with a bunch a – of existing tools [sniffling] and plus I don’t think the technology existed in the industry to really support it the way we would've liked to, you know, and the – a lot of the issues were you could shut off the power to the whole area but we were going into an era where things were controlled by computers and, [tapping] and, you know, th-, this was early in that type of engineering and, and you’d shut down the power on a robot and the computer would lose its memory. So, you know, you just, you just – you couldn't do it, eh, as a practical matter even though, eh, from a safety standpoint it was the right thing to do. You couldn't reprogram every robot every time you had to go, you know, turn a screw, [tapping] so. Cheryl McQuaid: Mark, I really wanna thank you for spending this time with us this morning. [rattling] [32:51] Is there anything you'd like to share with us that we've not asked you? Mark Van Epps: Eh, eh, just the only thing is, uh, I th-, I'm, uh, w-, when I got hired at Fisher Body, I was really proud of that because – partly because I really wanted the job and it was one of the first jobs I ever got where I didn’t know somebody. You know, I didn’t have a, I didn’t have, um, a neighbor or a relative or somebody that got me in. I got in on my own merits and on my own credentials and I was proud of that and I knew that, um, that it was really an opportunity to improve the standard of living for myself and for my family. Um, I, eh – and it's not always fun and, eh, you know, I've had bad experiences at work like we all do but for the most part, eh, I really like, I really like working for this company and I'm really proud of my union membership and I'm really proud of our Local and the people that, that work here. I, I think, I think Lansing is successful, uh, because of those people and, uh, really I, I have, I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever about choosing this as a career path and, and I feel very fortunate to be here. O-, other than that, l don’t, I don’t have anything else I need to share, so. Cheryl McQuaid: Well thank you very much. Mark Van Epps: Yeah. You're welcome. Jerri Smith: Yes, thank you. [recorder clicking] Mark Van Epps: Okay. I'm back and I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell ya about my – how my job interview [clicking] went and, uh, I had submitted my application for employment and I got a call to come in [clanking] for a job interview [papers rustling] and the interview was to be conducted by, uh, Jerry Wateros, who is like a seventh level, uh, supervisor in the Layout Department and, uh, Larry [Mesias 34:46] who was a – an hourly supervisor for, for the toolmakers. So I went, I went t-, and they took me to an office to do the interview and I sat down with Jerry and Jerry was waiting for Larry. Larry was late f-, to the interview, which was typical Larry as it turned out. So Jerry talked to me about his kids and he talked to me about the war in Vietnam, which of course was long g-, long over, and he talked to me about a few other social issues. Uh, never asked me anything about my work history or, or my background or my abilities and finally it got to the p-, and Larry never did show up and it finally got to the point where I said well, jeez, Jerry, I'd really like to work here if you guys have a job for me and he said well, come on in for a physical tomorrow and that was my entire, my entire job interview. I asked him what tools I should bring to work with me and he said well, a hammer and a chisel and maybe some Allen wrenches. And th-, that was it. So I – when I did finally come to work, I was totally unprepared for, for anything. I had no idea what I was getting myself [engine humming] into but, but it was – I'm glad I came anyway. Cheryl McQuaid: [35:56] Did you bring the hammer, the chisel and the… Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: …Allen wrenches? Mark Van Epps: Yeah. I brought a hammer, a chisel, some Allen wrenches [engine humming] and I think I mighta brought a crescent wrench [rattling] but I didn’t – no one seemed to know what else I needed [squeaking] so I – [laughter] that was all I brought. [footsteps] Cheryl McQuaid: Well thank you for that… [thumping] Mark Van Epps: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: …[final remark 36:11]. Mark Van Epps: You're welcome. [recorder clicking] /lo