MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY – SHAWN NICHOLSON MILTON VANN, AN AFRICAN AMERICAN, DISCUSSES HIS CAREER AS A PRODUCTION WORKER AND UAW MEMBER AT THE FISHER BODY PLANT IN LANSING, MI [recorder clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Fisher Body Historical Team interview. Today is approx-, is February… Female: Six. Marilyn Coulter: …6, 2006. It's approximately 11:10 a.m. We are at UAW Local 602 Frank Dryer Greenhouse. First we'll introduce the team. Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicholson. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Gary Judy: Gary Judy. Marilyn Coulter: And Marilyn Coulter. Today we're here with Milton Vann. Milton, could you please say [papers rustling] and spell your name for us, please? Milton Vann: Okay. My name is Milton J. Vann. That’s M-I-L-T-O-N, J as in Jerome and last name Vann, V as in Victor, V-A-N-N. Marilyn Coulter: [0:43] Could you please give us your address? Milton Vann: I live at 201 North Hagadorn, East Lansing, Michigan 48823. Marilyn Coulter: [0:51] Are you married? Milton Vann: Yes, 35 years. Marilyn Coulter: [0:55] And do you have children. Milton Vann: Two, two boys. Marilyn Coulter: All right. [0:59] Now where were you born? Milton Vann: Detroit. Marilyn Coulter: Detroit. [1:01] Were you also raised in Detroit? Milton Vann: Yes. [tapping] Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [1:04] And your education? Milton Vann: BS in Social Science from Michigan State 1971. Marilyn Coulter: [1:11] And w-, uh, were you ever in the military? Milton Vann: Air force. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. [1:15] And how long were you there? Milton Vann: Four years. Marilyn Coulter: [1:19] And, um, what did your parents do? Milton Vann: My father worked, uh, uh, in a factory, a working class people. Uh, it was a company called Motor Products and, um, they went outta business in the early ’50s and he never went back to work. [sighing] Uh, I think they have – actually have a Motor Products in Owosso or somewhere but I don’t know if it's the same company. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. [1:44] So, uh, what did you do before you hired in? Milton Vann: I was a student at Michigan State. Marilyn Coulter: [1:54] So you're a student at Michigan State and you were studying [your 1:57] social science? Milton Vann: My first one was med tech. Marilyn Coulter: Oh, as a med tech. So, um, you're at Michigan State University. You’ve come from a – your f-, your father was a factory worker. Milton Vann: Right. Marilyn Coulter: [2:10] What brought you in to Fisher Body? Milton Vann: Well after, uh, I had quit school in ’66 and, uh, and I came back here in ’67 and this was, eh, the really only place that had – you know, was doing hiring [at 2:26] any real substantial jobs and plus I come from – [background noises] and from where [tapping] just about all my family were autoworkers [clicking] for Chrysler primarily. Marilyn Coulter: [2:36] So, um, did you know anything about Fisher Body before you came in? Milton Vann: [tsk] No, I didn’t. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Milton Vann: I remember one summer I, uh, I was gonna try to – a professor was gonna get me a job here but I didn’t know I d-, couldn't [see 2:49], [laughter] so that – that’s [inaudible 2:51] but I, I had no idea about Fisher Body or I didn’t know anything about Lansing other than it was the state capitol. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. [2:58] Um, what did you think about factory workers prior to coming in here since you came from the automotive [tapping] town of Detroit? Milton Vann: [tsk] Well I [had an 3:03] [engine humming] opinion per se. I don’t know that, uh, they were – uh, you know, they were hardworking people because I grew up [into 3:11] that. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [3:13] So, um, when did you hire in to Fisher Body? Milton Vann: Uh, 10/9/67. Marilyn Coulter: [3:21] So do you remember how that came about? [3:23] Y-, did you, um – how did you – how was your employment? [3:26] Did you come to the plant? [3:28] Did you stand in line… Milton Vann: Yeah. Actually… Marilyn Coulter: …[outside 3:29]? Milton Vann: …I came to the plant, I was expecting long lines like in Detroit [tapping] and I got here one morning and there was – [laughter] there was nobody here. You know, they were – this was during the Vietnam [throat clearing] era and I guess they really had difficulty actually getting people to work. I mean they would advertise in the newspaper, uh, you know, to get your, you know, relatives or whoever to come and work at Fisher Body. But I actually stood in line out in Detroit. [Contrast with that 3:53], Detroit, even under, um, good times, I mean there will be blocks and blocks of people [tapping] standing in line for [thumping] for factory jobs. ‘Cause one time [inaudible 4:01] but, uh, I was totally shocked. There was nobody [laughter] in line. Marilyn Coulter: [4:08] So you just walked right in? Milton Vann: Just walked right in and, [clicking] uh, signed up and I guess a few days later, you know, I was working. Marilyn Coulter: [4:16] So do, do you remember, um, what job you did… Milton Vann: Eh… Marilyn Coulter: …and what shift? Milton Vann: I worked nightshift and my first job primarily was trunk rubbers and I stayed on trunk rubbers for about 5 years and I worked with this lady named Hazel [Meredith 4:31]. Uh, I'll never forget Hazel who was one of the few women who actually worked in, uh, in the Soft Trim Department, what they called it at the time. Most of the women were working in the Cushion Room. Marilyn Coulter: [Okay 4:41]. [4:42] Can you please explain the Soft Trim and Cushion Room for us, please? Milton Vann: Uh, [sighing] well the Cushion Room is where they actually built the seats and I guess they made a distinction between Soft and Hard Trim, eh, and, uh, Soft Trim, I guess, is, uh, uh, you know, we were just putting in just, uh… [knocking] [squeaking] Marilyn Coulter: [5:03] So that was more or less – the soft trim, was that more like the interior stuff that people would see, like armrests and… Milton Vann: Uh, what's that t-, [laughter] wait a minute… Marilyn Coulter: …[inaudible 5:11]? Milton Vann: Maybe we were in Hardware. Maybe [I get 5:13] confused. No. It was Hardware. I think Soft Trim was up, up in [inaudible 5:16] somewhere and they actually put in the seats and stuff and I was in Hardware. That’s right. Marilyn Coulter: And… Milton Vann: You know, we did stuff like trunk rubbers, moldings, [thumping] uh, you know, just the basic building up of the body after they come outta the, uh, Paint Department. Marilyn Coulter: [5:31] Covering up all those sharp metal edges on… Milton Vann: Right. ‘Cause I used to spray deadeners f-, fiberglass deadeners and, you know, we'd put all that stuff in… Marilyn Coulter: Y-… Milton Vann: …before… Marilyn Coulter: [5:40] You sprayed fib-, fiberglass… Milton Vann: Fiberglass deadeners. Marilyn Coulter: And that… Milton Vann: That’s for soundproofing. Marilyn Coulter: Oh, okay, for soundproofing. Milton Vann: Right. Marilyn Coulter: [5:46] And that would go on the floor, on the walls? Milton Vann: Yeah, inside the – right. Marilyn Coulter: Oh, okay. So, um… Milton Vann: But primarily I was work-, I worked trunk rubbers and that was my first introduction to, uh, you know, work, real work. Marilyn Coulter: [6:01] So what did you think about that when you walked in and you saw the inside of that plant and you were taken [thumping] to your job? [6:06] Do you remember that process? Milton Vann: [Oh, I 6:07] – it was, it was kinda, you know, you feel like you first day in, um, [crinkling] in a strange school and you didn’t know anybody and, uh, it was overwhelming. It was, uh, it was a lotta people. You didn’t know anybody and, uh, you had to orient, orient yourself to it. Marilyn Coulter: [6:26] So was there anybody who took you under their wing or who, who trained you? [6:31] Do you [remember] [inaudible 6:31]? Milton Vann: Uh, no, not really. The only person I remember really at the time was the supervi-, the supervisor, Dick Bud, was my first supervisor and, uh, uh, but, you know, once I got on the job, uh, eh, you know, and actually learned the job, you, you more or less stayed there and I used to – of course everybody hated it because you – the first time, you know, actually doing production and the monotony and the, the, uh, just the – [be able 6:58] to endure the physical work to make the adaptation to the physical work lifestyle. Marilyn Coulter: [7:04] How was that for you, coming from Michigan State being a student and then working on the assembly line? Milton Vann: Right. Well it was, uh, it wasn’t what I expected, you know. [laughter] I escaped Detroit just so I could get away from the auto industry and to end up in the [thumping] auto industry in Lansing. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: Yeah, that’s a little bit… Milton Vann: You know? Marilyn Coulter: …ir-, irony there, [I guess 7:21]. [throat clearing] [7:22] So, um, how old were you when you hired in? Milton Vann: I was 22 years old. Marilyn Coulter: You were 22. [7:31] So at 22 and you came in and, um, you hired in, were there any kind of new hire initiations or pranks or anything that were played on you? Milton Vann: No. I don’t remember. We had a brief, um, orientation but, you know, everybody was – people were pretty, pretty nice, nice people. Marilyn Coulter: [7:50] So your first day was a pretty good day? Milton Vann: Oh, yeah. [papers rustling] Yeah. I expect things to be – you know, 'cause you got that high school mode, you think, you know, you had a lotta fear and stuff but, uh, you know, you didn’t realize these were adults. They weren't children. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Milton Vann: And people – nice people in Lansing. Marilyn Coulter: [8:05] Now did you say this was the dayshift that you hired in on? Milton Vann: Nightshift. Marilyn Coulter: [8:08] You hired in on nightshift? [8:10] So now you said that Hazel [Meredith 8:13] [tapping] was one of – was she like the only woman around or was she [inaudible 8:16]? Milton Vann: Oh, she wasn’t the only one but they only had just a few women in, in, uh, Trim Department at the time and I think I talked to you before [background noises] [‘cause they 8:23] used to have to give her extra time to go to the [coughing] bathroom because the bathroom was downstairs on the main floor and we were all upstairs. Both lines were upstairs at the time. That’s before we had the, the new part built in the ’80s. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [8:37] And so you said they had both lines, so they ran 2 car lines [inaudible 8:41]? Milton Vann: Upstairs. Right. Marilyn Coulter: So… Milton Vann: And it's amazing they had over 5,000 people in the, you know – we had no i-, didn’t have a clue how compacted we were in there. Marilyn Coulter: [Oh 8:52]. Milton Vann: But they had over 5,000 people in that plant and, and like I said [engine humming] that’s before they built the new, you know, downstairs, you know, assembly line. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. [8:59] Do remember how many products you built back then? Milton Vann: We built – I think at one time we had over about 30 different car styles. Marilyn Coulter: [9:07] And that was colors and… Milton Vann: Colors [of 9:09] station wagons, police cars, um, uh, [sighing] 2 doors, 4 doors, uh, you name it, we b-, I think it was pretty close to 30 different model cars we built [popping] in that plant. Marilyn Coulter: [Oh 9:22], that was very [interesting 9:22]. [9:24] So were there many other African-Americans there? Milton Vann: Not… Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 9:29]. Milton Vann: …very many. That was 1 shocking thing about it because usually, generally in the auto industry, you think there’ll be lot of black Americans and, and the, uh, production w-, was different here in Lansing. It was predominantly white. You know, [inaudible 9:41] in your workgroup, uh, [sighing] and it’d be 30-40 people, you know, may be the only black in there. Marilyn Coulter: [9:50] What about Latinos? Milton Vann: Uh… Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 9:52]. Milton Vann: …just a handful and, and this is the first time I ever really come, come in contact with Latinos and a-, and the American Indians. Marilyn Coulter: [10:00] Really? [10:01] And how was that for you? Milton Vann: Uh, that was interesting, uh, especially with American Indians. I know [George Roy 10:05] who’s probably still working, he came from Manitoulin Island in Canada and I think it was about 4 or 5 guys who came from Manitoulin Island and that’s the first, first contact I had with Native Americans or Native Canadians or whatever, you know. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [11:20] And so what was the environment like for the African-Americans and [clanking] the Hispanics and the, and the women? Milton Vann: I didn’t s-, you know, uh [laughter] – there was such a few, I don’t think there was – I don’t remember any conflicts. Marilyn Coulter: [And 10:35] very few in 1967. That’s pretty great. [10:39] Um, so what did you think of the people in the plant? Milton Vann: Well they were good people. [engine humming] I mean they were hardworking people. Uh, everybody came and did their job. Uh, you know, it was a new lifestyle to adapt to and, and that’s the hard part, was just being a-, adapt to a new [clicking] lifestyle and as time go on, [throat clearing] uh, you, you really gain more respect because then you really understand the big picture. There’s no typical factory worker per se. You know, there's a diversity of, uh, people, diversity of skills, diversity of education, diversity of everything and I don’t mean racial diversity. [knocking] Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Milton Vann: It's just diversity of people. Marilyn Coulter: [11:22] Did you find a lotta people like yourself [clicking] that had come from college and was working in the plant b-, [for whatever 11:27] reasons? Milton Vann: Well in the sense that, like I said, there’s no typical factory worker… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Milton Vann: …s-, everybody kinda – you could always sell your labor regardless. I mean, we had lawyers. You know, Jack [Phillips 11:39], uh, [thumping] he actually retired outta here and he was a lawyer. We had one guy from Leslie who was a lawyer. We had all kinds of people. Marilyn Coulter: Oh, [that’s great 11:47]. Jerri Smith: Now you said you hired in on Trim. [11:50] Did you always stay in the Trim Shop or did you go in Body or Paint [clanking] or anything? Milton Vann: I've always stayed in Trim and then I went – later on in QC [tapping] but still I was in Trim. Jerri Smith: Oh, this is Jerri Smith. [thumping] [tapping] Milton Vann: Mostly, uh, n-, very seldom – I've maybe once or twice worked on the M System or B System. I've always worked on the A System or C System. Marilyn Coulter: Um, now, Milt, you said that you worked nights? [12:14] Did you always work on nightshift? [12:15] Did you ever work days? Milton Vann: I only worked days out of almost 37 years, 36.7 to be exact, I may have worked, uh, a year and a half on days. Marilyn Coulter: Only a year and a half. [12:27] N-, uh, one would think dayshift… [tapping] [papers rustling] Milton Vann: And that’s on 3 different [papers rustling] occasions. Marilyn Coulter: One would think that days would be a preferred shift. [12:33] Were there many people – do you prefer nights [inaudible 12:35]? Milton Vann: Yeah. You know, it's, uh – it was – we had our own special, [tapping] you know – was one thing about the nightshift, I always felt special about it because, you know, we had people who were part of the night-shifters. [laughter] I mean we just enjoyed being on nights where everybody else wanted to go to days. It was never an issue. I preferred, preferred, uh, nights and even when I went to days, uh, I really had a difficult time. I had to get back to nights. I had – I did everything in, in my power to get back to nights. My world was really turned upsidedown when I went to dayshift. Marilyn Coulter: [13:06] Really? [13:07] Was there anything that you noticed that was different between the plant culture on nights versus days? Milton Vann: Uh, [sighing] well I wasn’t on days long enough but, uh, see the nightshift was a little bit more vibrant. You had probably younger people, um. Uh, I think it was more cohesive on, on the nightshift from my point of view. And maybe it's, you know, I may be wrong about that but, uh – I don’t know. Nights was special, [laughter] you know, to me, uh. I'm sure people argue that the dayshift was [background noises] the same thing for them. But, but like I said, we had our own permanent people who've been on nights for years and who wouldn't prefer it any other way. Marilyn Coulter: [13:45] So, um, can you tell me how long did you do trunk rubbers [tapping] or did you do that for a long [time 13:52]? Milton Vann: I did trunk rubbers for about 5 years. Marilyn Coulter: [13:54] For 5 years? [13:57] So 5 years, eh, w-, did you keep the same partner? [14:00] Did you do that by yourself? Milton Vann: Oh, I had s-, a different part-, after, uh, I think Hazel ended up retiring and then we had, you know, different partners and stuff. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. [thumping] [14:09] So, um, after 5 years, then where’d you go? Milton Vann: And I think I did deadeners, uh, started spraying fiberglass deadeners, uh, and then 1 time I went to windshield clips and then, uh – John Powers was our [tapping] general foreman and he asked me did I – he offered the, uh, door glass for me and that was a really good job and, uh, I don’t know if anybody mentioned John Powers who gen-, who was our general foreman who always had a reputation for being hardnosed but 1 thing looking back in retrospect, [laughter] John Powers was pretty fair. But he – I mean, he was like a despot but, uh, if you did a good job, he would reward you. Marilyn Coulter: [14:49] How’d he reward you? Milton Vann: Well, like I said, with the, uh, you know, with the job. And he didn’t have to do that, uh. And I remember 1 time, uh, Willie Fuller was, uh, wanted to go to State Police Academy and, and nobody would, uh, give him educational leave and John Powers personally went down to [Jerry Brooks 15:08] and demanded that Willie get, uh, an educational leave. And John Powers, here’s a guy who had a reputation actually for firing his own [knocking] kid and plus he had a reputation [laughter] – a hell of a reputation and, and, you know, I w-… Marilyn Coulter: [15:22] He au-, he fired his own kid? Milton Vann: He actually fired his own kid. So you didn’t mess around with Powers [laughter] but, you know, it was, uh, you know, it – like I said, it was – he was hardnosed but looking back, you know, it's, you know, you kinda, you kinda laugh because that’s the way the culture was back [tapping] then and that’s the way it was. You know, we, uh, we knew our limits. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [15:44] Oh, so everyone [background noises] knew their limits? Milton Vann: They s-, definitely knew their limits. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: Now you said that you worked on the trunk rubbers and you worked with fiberglass. [15:54] Was there any kind of special equipment that you had to wear when you're working with this type of… Milton Vann: Well… Marilyn Coulter: …[inaudible 15:59]? Milton Vann: …at the time, uh, [sighing] you know, we didn’t have all the safety precautions and even to this day, sometime [engine humming] I worry about spraying fiber-, I think I s-, spent a year on that job and, uh, you know, spraying that stuff and fiberglass, I think, has been known to be a carcinogen but there was never any, uh, [background noises] you know, mask or anything. Uh, they didn’t push safety back in those days. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: [16:23] Do you kinda remember when safety became an issue? Milton Vann: Well at one point in time, actually we made it an issue because when we were on, uh – we were doing, uh, uh, trunk rubbers, uh, and some of the s-, the sealant and we wanted information about it and this was before the, the union or management really got into it and, uh, we made it, eh, eh, an issue and we had a difficult time trying to get information [tapping] about, you know, what we were actually working with. And you know 'cause you, you taught the class about, uh, you know, the [coughing] s-, the safety in the w-, in the workplace. Uh, but that information wasn’t available and, and then when they did come with the information, they would just, uh, give you, you just a general description. Like they might say well [background noises] it's aromatic carbohydra-, car-, carbo- [knocking] carbohydra-, [laughter] I can't even pronounce the word right now. Anyway, which really means that it smells but they didn’t tell you what compounds and stuff you were actually working with. Marilyn Coulter: [Mm-hm 17:23]. Milton Vann: And, uh, I'm glad that was a big change, so you – at least you know exactly the chemicals you were working with. And one time when we’re building, uh, [tsk] door glass, they came with a process where they would bake the – at least the rear glass into – in this polyvinyl, uh – well the stuff was really basically polyvinylchloride, which is a known carcinogen, and they would actually blow that out into a – into the shop and we raised holy hell about that and, and finally they were forced to, uh, vent the, uh, the stuff in-, into the atmosphere. They had to go to the city and get a [thumping] – get permission but, you know, we forced them. And this is all before, you know, these issues w-, eh, eh, I mean became an issue about health and, and safety that we were pushing this stuff ourselves. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. That’s [excellent 18:12]. So, um… Milton Vann: Because some of us – look, what people gotta understand is that when I, when I mention diversity, you, you had a diversity of [background noises] education. You had [throat clearing] a diversity of skills. And that – when these issues came up, there was always somebody in the plant who had some expertise. I mean I've had chemistry before, uh, you know, whether a guy could read or write, he might be a mechanical genius. You had [knocking] all these, these people with all these skills and they could always step forward [thumping] and, and, and complete the stuff. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Well that’s good. [18:47] Um, so you all were a tightknit group also, I take it, if you were able to come together like that? [papers rustling] [18:54] Were you a tightknit group? Milton Vann: Oh, yeah, but we had our own s-, you know, like in, in glass, you know, there was a special group in and of itself and, and, uh, I actually became – people became your family in there. I mean you saw them more than you saw your own spouse. Marilyn Coulter: [19:10 ]You saw them more and you said they became your family? Milton Vann: They became your family, your de facto family. They were your family while you spend 8, 9, 10 hours [background noises] a night in, in the shop. Marilyn Coulter: [19:19] So back then, that was like the longest you would have to work was 10 hours? Milton Vann: Yeah. Well actually when I first hired in there, we were doing [engine humming] 10.3 hours every – not right away but later on, we would do 10.3 hours every night. [papers rustling] Marilyn Coulter: [19:31] Now was this just 5 days [clanking] a week or… Milton Vann: Um… Marilyn Coulter: …how many days? Milton Vann: …5 days and then if we worked Saturday, [tapping] we'd probably work 6 hours on Saturday and it was pretty hard, you know, 'cause you can imagine [background noises] working 5 hours and then work another 5 and then, then 3/10th more. That was, eh – that got – really got outta hand. And at one point, it got so bad that people in the Body Shop were just about ready to revolt. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: [19:54] Really? Milton Vann: Because it was extremely hard. Marilyn Coulter: [19:55] ‘Cause you were working a lot of t-, now, um, you said that the – what made the Glass Department special? You said that they were really a tightknit group. [20:03] What makes the [thumping] Glass Department such a tightknit group? [20:05] What do you think about that? [clanking] Milton Vann: Because I guess we had, you know, unique jobs and, and, and the genius of the people [squeaking] is that we were always able to organize our work. You know, whatever the task was, you know, we would get together. [background noises] You know, they, you know, they talk about this stuff now but, [squeaking] uh, I mean we could always figure out how, how to do our job and do it efficiently and squeeze some time off for ourselves. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. [20:29] So how much time would you be able to squeeze out for yourself? Milton Vann: Uh, [sighing] I don’t know. We'd probably spend, uh, maybe a extra 40 or maybe an hour a night just f-, just for ourselves because we organize the work. We would have 1 person, uh, with, with like, when we – at one point, we had 4 people on both sides. Uh, we had 3 people build – let's say 2 people building glass, front door glass, 1 building rear door glass and the one on the line just installing and we would build so much glass up towards the end of the night, we just [engine humming] – we had so much glass [laughter] on the floor, we just installed it and everybody could relax. Marilyn Coulter: [21:06] So what did you have to do when you say you built glass? [21:08] What did you have to do to build glass? [21:10] [What do you 21:10]… Milton Vann: To build glass is to – especially when we built – had the Cutlass, uh, you have to put fasteners and, and, uh – I can't really describe it – uh, where you could actually slide down what they call the door channels. You had to build – you just couldn't put the glass in and s-, you have to have fasteners where the glass could fix-, fixate itself inside so you can roll it up and down. And sometime that was really, uh, you know, an extensive process but they, as time went on, they made it simpler and simpler and used less and less people. But w-, when we were building the Cutlass, that was, uh, a big buildup. That’s a big job. Marilyn Coulter: [21:45] So where you were in the door glass area where you did the side glass, not the windshield or back glass? Milton Vann: Right. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Milton Vann: No, I never did windshield or back glass, just d-, sliding glass. Marilyn Coulter: [21:54] So that was easy to install? [21:56] Did you get cut or anything like that messing with glass? Milton Vann: Oh, yeah. It was – [laughter] every once in a while o-, one would explode on you but just like everything else in there and I don’t care how difficult the jobs were, you do this stuff every day and you really [thumping] got good at it. You could do it in your sleep. I mean the most complex jobs became easy. [background noises] Marilyn Coulter: Oh. S-… Earl Nicholson: Earl Nicholson. [22:17] Why don’t you, [tapping] uh, take a moment and explain, explain what Glass Group is? I think a lotta people, uh, you know – what are [clanking] groups? Milton Vann: Well we had specialized groups at the time and later on they, you know, they changed that but, of course, [thumping] we actually got paid a little bit more, maybe 7 cents more an hour but Glass Group, I think, really consist of side glass, back glass, and, [tapping] uh, and, and, and win-, windshield. And like I said there were specialized [throat clearing] groups and, uh, uh, they required a little bit more skills. I, I remember before we had robots, the guys used to run the beads on the back glass and the windshield. They did that by h-, hand and that took a lotta skill 'cause they had to be right. Right now they do it with robots but people actually did it by hand and even after one time it installed a – they had an $80,000 machine to do that, uh, and, uh, and it, it really, it really [failed 23:16]. That was a lotta money back then for them. But, you know, we always end up, uh, out working on machines and peop-, people are really good, really skillful. [tapping] Marilyn Coulter: [23:29] Um, how long did you work in the Glass Department? Milton Vann: [tsk] I think I spent about – that’s the longest area I ever worked in and I think I spent about, uh, [engine humming] I think at least 11 years just… Marilyn Coulter: [Oh ]. Milton Vann: …building door glass. It was a good job. It was one of the better jobs. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: Did you, [background noises] um, h-, I know you said you had – you were like a family. [23:45] Did any of those [inaudible 23:46] family, family friendships extend outside the plant? Milton Vann: Oh, yeah. We would, you know – guys who I met up f-, up in – from [Vesterberg 23:53] and St. Louis area. You know, we would, [background noises] we would go up there. [throat clearing] And it was a totally different world. You know, I never even know [thumping] those places existed 'cause I was from Detroit, you know, [laughter] and Detroit, no-, nothing really exist outside Detroit. But they had little towns, like St. Louis, you know, I never even heard of before. Uh, and, and you really got to, um, you know, learn about other people’s lives, especially for those workers who worked in rural areas who had small farms or who were f-, fulltime farmers. It was eye-, you know, [background noises] eye-opening. Marilyn Coulter: [24:23] What would you say was probably one of the most surprising or interesting things you learned about a coworker? Milton Vann: I don’t know so much as – I was just amazed by the people’s abilities to, to do so many different things. I remember I had one friend of mine and I didn’t – I was shocked that he could-, I didn’t even know he couldn't read or read very little and, uh, I would go over to his house and he would have a steering collum out around 3:00 and about around 6:00, he’s driving the car. Uh, [laughter] the guy was really a mechanical genius. You know, he, he couldn't read but you had, you had these people with all these abilities, which [tapping] would totally amaze me, you know, that, you know, that don’t fit the public’s eye of, you know, factory workers. They get this monolithic [tapping] view of what a factory worker is but really the diversity of skills, uh, eh, would just amaze me. [clicking] And I'll give you another example. Uh, this other friend of mine, uh – and you know Jim [Denike 25:25], uh… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Milton Vann: …you know, computer genius and, and like I, I mentioned once before that he had – was checking his – checking our paychecks and he wrote, wrote these programs and, and found out there was an error in the program from whoever processed our paychecks. Here’s a guy on the line, who’s writing computer program and then – and that resulted in about $17,000 and one week, we got like 4 or 5 [throat clearing] extra bucks. It was just in pennies but over a period of time but the point… Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 25:53]. Milton Vann: …is that you have somebody working on the assembly line who could write in machine language programs. I mean that’s the amazing part to me, was that all the skills that, that, that people brought to the plant. Marilyn Coulter: [Hm 26:09]. Earl? Earl Nicholson: Uh, Earl Nicholson. You said, uh – you made a comment of, uh, people’s monolithic views of factory workers. [26:17] Could you elaborate on that just a little bit? Milton Vann: Well, you know, the general public think that, uh, for one thing, they, they think factory workers are uneducated and I think at one point we had like over 60 people had college degrees. Uh, [phew] I'm sure if you – even just the, you know, the academic level but, but the skill level of, you know, guys who would build they own homes, uh, lay their own concrete. Um, I mean people in the university couldn't possibly even do those kind of d-, do [those things or even 26:48] [background noises] have those skills. So the, the idea that, uh, [background noises] factory workers were uneducated or unskillful was just, was just totally incorrect because you had people with tremendous skills, uh, and they refined those skills and then they came to the shop. You know, there was always somebody there to, uh, you know, execute. Just for, for example, when we first started using computers in the plant, nobody taught – most of us, we learned on our own. So when the time came and they need people with computer skills, [throat clearing] they were out there. They were right on assembly line and, uh, you know, and they were, you know, learning how to do [draft 27:28]. They, they were doing word processing [knocking] way beyond, you know, [tapping] anything that we're supposed to know as, you know, as typical factory workers. You know, that’s supposed to have been out of our realm but people made a hobby. It was, it was a hobby for me, computers. Marilyn Coulter: [27:42] So did these hobbies and these different talents that your coworkers have, were you able – ever able to utilize those outside the plant? Milton Vann: Oh my God. Anything I needed to do I didn’t know how to do, I used’m as a resource whether I'm installing a, a dishwasher or anything that I needed to know – and I didn’t have any skills. I didn’t even know how to hold a motor in my hand 'cause I never worked before in my life. I mean actually real work. And, uh, you find out that, you know, just like, like men and women who came from rural areas, they knew how to work. Eh, I didn’t know how to work. Even though I went to a university, it didn’t prepare me to do actually, eh, you know… Marilyn Coulter: Physical… Milton Vann: …the physical work and not only [inaudible 28:23] define the work. It's not just doing any repetitious thing. It's being able to organize work efficiently so you, you could, you know – so it wouldn't really kill you. You know, you had to organize this work yourself. But a lotta people came in and they knew about machinery. They had all these – like I said, they had all these skills that normally, uh, society wouldn't, you know, attribute to factory workers but they had a tremendous amount of skills. I mean they were repairing cars, building cars, eh, on their own, painting cars. When they come in the plant, they had these skills. Marilyn Coulter: [28:57] And which by them coming in with those skills and with that [background noises] certain work ethic, it sounds like it helped them do what [background noises] they had to do… Milton Vann: Well I think… Marilyn Coulter: …on a daily basis. Milton Vann: You know, I never worked in another plant before but I always thought that was – with the uni-, especially with the university here and, you know, and the people who worked in the rural areas, uh, uh, you just had a, you, you had a tremendous pool of, of talent and, and I think that’s what made Fisher Body so successful. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: So you, you said that, um, we had a lot of talent; you were able to work together and you were able to build up stock and work a way and work together in such a way and do a te-, and become a team that you were able to [thumping] get extra time. [29:40] What types of things did you guys do in there, extra time to kind of pass that time and get you through your day? Milton Vann: Well because the – well, [sighing] you know, we would read or visit people. Uh, but the, you know, the, the, the line was pretty – really pretty, pretty hard, so, eh, you know, we just really used that time to relax, uh, 'cause it was – it's hard work, you know, and, and probably still – I think it's even harder today than it was back there because we – when we were working, we more or less took stock out of, uh, boxes and put’m on the car but now you take s-, take, uh, stock and you gotta build the stock up and then put it on the cars. It's, it's a lot harder today than it was then. Marilyn Coulter: [30:20] Can you take us through a day, what a day was like for you back then? [engine humming] [30:24] How would your day start? Milton Vann: Well basically, you know, [laughter] of course we used, we, uh, used our punch – we didn’t have [inaudible 30:34]. Eh, [thumping] y-, you know, we had to go a-, actually [clanking] to a, you know, the timeclock and punch in and, eh, I don’t know if I can in, in, in really in general terms, uh – you know, we'd just start off, you know, doing our job, working, organizing, figure out who’s – like in door glass figuring out who’s gonna do what for the day. Normally we, we would rotate the jobs, so it made it more easy for everybody. Marilyn Coulter: [30:57] You did that on your own? Milton Vann: Because we did a f-, you know, that was our way of working – doing it efficiently, not necessarily – I mean we could've did it, you know, the way it was designed but s-, you know, human beings don’t work that way. They, they always find easier ways to benefit themselves as well as the company. And we, we worked hard. Marilyn Coulter: [31:15] Your supervisor didn’t care if you switched jobs around and stuff like that? [background noises] Milton Vann: No, not really. They, you know – as long as we were doing [tapping] our jobs, uh – sometimes they would take advantage of it. You know, they figure that, uh, [throat clearing] you know, these guys got extra time. But see, that was the only tradeoff. If we [tapping] became more efficient and we used our own heads that sometimes we were penalized by, you know, with more work, so you had to be kinda cautious about that. And it was difficult work but we figured – always figure out ways of doing it efficiently that benefitted everybody, the company as well as – because we were efficient. Marilyn Coulter: [31:49] So you’d come in; you'd punch in and then you’d… Milton Vann: Right. And then we… Marilyn Coulter: …figure out who’s gonna do what? Milton Vann: ...w-, we’d do our job and then lunchtime came and we, you know, we – either, you know, you went upstairs [throat clearing] to the cafeteria and stood in line. You know, people probably – some of you guys don’t remember standing in line in the cafeteria because at that point in time people didn’t go out, run down to McDonald’s or all these other places. We actually ate in the cafeteria, [laughter] so about – we actually had 42-minute, uh, lunchbreaks too and some people [laughter] were able to go home and come back. And then one year, they decided that, uh, why spend an extra hour [thumping] [clanking] or extra 12 minutes, you know, which would amount to an extra hour a week and supposedly the people voted, uh, for [clanking] half-an-hour lunchbreaks instead of the 42-minute lunchbreaks. Marilyn Coulter: [32:34] Now I understand that [tapping] they had a wagon and [clinking] you – maybe you can [knocking] explain that for us? [clinking] Milton Vann: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [32:40] And, um, [clinking] [knocking] so you had your 42 minutes [tapping] plus your extra breaks or can you [throat clearing] explain [inaudible 32:45]? Milton Vann: Yeah. We had the wagon. I think the wagon was for 6 minutes and they would actually [squeaking] stop the line, uh, and we were running [clinking] what they called tag relief. Uh, we – you know, somebody would come [clanking] and relieve you for your, for your 15 minutes or whatever the time period was and then come back. But, uh, when the wagon came th-, [clicking] they ax-, actually would stop the line where you could buy, you know, cakes or cookie or coffee or, you know, all that, that kinda stuff, which I always pre-, liked the wagon because it, it kind of broke, broke up the day. You know, we had something to look forward to. [tapping] And then one year, they decided that, uh – well they [offered the 33:21], [background noises] you know, that they would – I'm not sure if they [would 33:24] give us extra time and they tried to put into these break areas and then the people voted that down and went back to the wagon but [thumping] eventually the wagon was – they eliminated the wagon [laughter] but we actually voted that down [background noises] and kept our wagon [background noises] as long as we could. Marilyn Coulter: So… Milton Vann: And the argument was always that we were always the only plant and that’s where most if it – we – everything that we did, we were always the only plant that did this, uh, you know, we had to conform. Marilyn Coulter: [33:47] So was the wagon a little truck that came through with… Milton Vann: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: …[these snacks on it 33:50]? Milton Vann: It was like a little cart and people in the cafeteria, you know, ran the wagons and we actually would buy this stuff, you know, coffee, doughnuts and that kinda stuff. Marilyn Coulter: [33:58] And it came in the morning and the afternoon? Milton Vann: Yeah, in the morning and in the afternoon. Marilyn Coulter: [34:02] And do you r-, so you got the wagon break and 1, and 1 tag break and then lunch? Milton Vann: I think we had 2 tag breaks during, during the, the day and then maybe 1 or 2 – all depends how long w-, we were going. If we went, you know, if you went 10 hours, of course we're gonna get more breaks. I don’t recall exactly how that went. Marilyn Coulter: [34:20] Now was the cafeteria a centrally located place? [engine humming] [34:23] Did you have a far way to go? Milton Vann: Yeah. It wasn’t bad for Trim. I'm sure people in the Paint Department probably did. I'm not sure. I would assume it was harder for them to get there but in Trim, uh, it was pretty, uh, close [thumping] but the, the thing is that back in those days, very few people actually went outside to eat lunch. You know, they would stand in line and, and, and buy their, uh, [thumping] lunch in the cafeteria. Marilyn Coulter: [34:45] So [papers rustling] did managers and employees all eat in the same place? Milton Vann: Well everything was kind of – the, the cafeteria’s actually segregated to – it was, it was, you know, the workers had they own cafeteria. The management had they own cafeteria. [laughter] And then when the, uh, [background noises] the Japanese with the competition from Japan and th-, th-, then management decided that we should all eat together, uh, the same way with the parking lot. [clanking] Uh, the parking lot was segregated. We had, we had the, uh, the managers on one side of the parking lot and the workers on the other side of the parking lot. Marilyn Coulter: [35:17] Um, did you think that kept it a kind of us versus them type a deal because you ate separately and you parked separately? [35:24] How’d you feel about that… Milton Vann: Well… Marilyn Coulter: …[inaudible 35:26]? Milton Vann: …yeah, but that’s the way things were, you know, and, you know, s-, we can look in, in hindsight about that but you have to understand that that was the lifestyle. That was the culture r-, and also remember that, uh, you know, General Motors was very [laughter] successful at that point in time, so nobody really argued that. And I guess that was one of the benefits of being a supervisor, you had privilege, parking privileges and you ate in your own special cafeteria. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [35:52] Well talking about supervisors, what about supervisors? [34:54] Can you tell us what was a good supervisor and what was a bad supervisor and how did supervision change while you were [inaudible 36:00] during your time of employment? Milton Vann: Well, uh, as I mentioned before, [background noises] uh, uh, John Powers was the, uh, [inaudible 36:09] for the hardnosed supervi-, [the 36:11] supervisor or general foreman. And I think on the M System, they had Marshall Dean, which I never really worked for him but I heard he was kinda really hardnosed [thumping] too and just, just the way things were done. But most of the supervisors, if you did your job, you didn’t have any problems with supervisors. I mean they would actually, if you were good enough, they would actually tell you you were a good worker. They would reward you in that kinda way. But if you did you're job, you didn’t have any problems with supervisors. I mean the only time, you know, later on is the competition got more intense when we started putting work on people, [background noises] then the conflicts kind of started with supervisors but, you know, in the beginning, uh, you know, you did your job, you didn’t have any problems. Marilyn Coulter: [36:51] So what type of conflicts would…? [tapping] Milton Vann: Well when they had to, [engine humming] uh, start organizing work and adding work. You know, like in the last maybe 4 or 5 years, uh, I mean there’s tremendous job cutting and, and the people have to carry these tremendous burdens of – I mean they were working harder than they ever worked in their life and it was extremely hard in a s-, you know, emotionally, uh, it was tough, you know and the – and then the supervisor, you know, they're in the process of adding work and I'm sure a lot of them didn’t like to do it but, you know, it was, it was done but it w-, eh, you know, that can create a lot of problems. Marilyn Coulter: [37:28] So we had different cars being built; you had 2 lines going side by side… Milton Vann: Right. Marilyn Coulter: …and then they split and can you tell us about some of the environmental changes and how they affected the employees during those times? Milton Vann: Uh, well the biggest change, when they built the new part [thumping] downstairs and they – that’s certainly, uh – I mean we didn’t even – we weren't even aware that we were all [laughter] on top a each other until they built, you know, eh, the, the new plant downstairs, uh, for the ASC, for the ASC System, uh, but, uh, I guess the biggest, eh, the biggest thing I thought was the, the, the health when they started [thumping] coming up with the information about chemicals [engine humming] and stuff. I think that helped a great deal. At least you knew exactly what [papers rustling] what you were working with, the chemicals and s-, I mean that was a, that was a big change because, you know, I was in there when, when – before they even had electric trucks. And I used to be on the [tapping] [inaudible 38:25] when the trucks would – you had – actually had gasoline lift trucks [engine humming] and they would turn around and they would spray you with fumes, like [coughing] that’s just the way it was and, [throat clearing] and, um, uh, the UAW finally got them to, uh, start running electric trucks inside and that was a huge, huge difference. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: [38:44] Can you tell me what about the noise level? [38:47] Was, was it noisy inside the plant? Milton Vann: Yeah, it was noisy but you didn’t, um, [throat clearing] [background noises] [sighing] – that’s just part of the, [thumping] you know, lifestyle in there. But you know r-, the really funny thing is that, uh, when – like in the summertime, eh, the thing that bothered me more was the heat. [laughter] You know, I… Marilyn Coulter: [39:04] The heat? Milton Vann: …I don’t particularly like working with a lotta heat now. [background noises] I mean I c-, I can't deal with heat. And it used to be, uh, in the – [up 39:12] there on Verlinden th-, that – where M System was and they used to have these, uh, windows and they had’m caged up and it used to be so hot in there and you would walk over to the windows and you would look out [thumping] and you feel like you're in prison somewhere [background noises] 'cause you, you can look [throat clearing] outside and, eh, the grass was always so much greener and people were strolling around and it seemed like it was just a totally different world [thumping] [laughter] outside 'cause you were so miserable with, you know, because of the – to me it was the – more, more so the heat that was just bugging me. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [39:40] So if it was 70, 70 degrees outside, how hot did you think it would be inside? Milton Vann: Uh, be probably 90 or 95 in-, inside. It was extremely hot. We didn’t have all the fans and stuff that we have now. Marilyn Coulter: [Mm-hm 39:55]. Milton Vann: Of course, the place wasn’t airconditioned. They couldn't air condition that. The place would be too old. But, uh, we didn’t have the fans. Uh, it's been a lot of environmental changes. You know, y-, you really think about it. Uh, it was, it was pretty tough in there. Marilyn Coulter: S-, [clinking] Gary Judy? Gary Judy: Uh, you talk about the changes that took place. [tapping] [40:14] Did you ever, uh, participate in any [tapping] strikes to get any changes or Milton Vann: Well… Gary Judy: …was that during your time or…? Milton Vann: Well the last strike that we actually ever had, real strike was in 1970, so – and that was almost, uh – I don’t know how many days. It was 59 days or whatever it was, uh, so we actually, uh… [engine humming] Gary Judy: [40:31] Do you remember what they were striking for? Milton Vann: Uh, I'm not sure. It was [throat clearing] for the, uh – [clanking] I don’t know if it was so much for l-, for the local right, [clanking] you know, changes in the – as far as the local was concerned but I think it was, you know, the national strike. I don’t know what the issues were in, in 1970. Gary Judy: [40:50] Was, was that 30 and out maybe or…? [clanking] Milton Vann: Yeah. Eh, it c-, could possibly be. It was… Gary Judy: [Inaudible 40:54]. Milton Vann: …major stuff. Uh, [papers rustling] uh, but I remember, uh, [engine humming] you know, that was a long time and… Gary Judy: [41:01] Did, did you have to walk the picket line? Milton Vann: Oh, yeah and actually we'd sit in our cars and stuff and it got kind of cold by November [laughter] and it was, [laughter] it w-, it was hard out there. But we actually w-, walked the picket line and, and I would never – after all those years, uh, I think we [would've 41:16] had more strikes but that was the only real strike. And actually I got married [laughter] 2 days before the strike, so [thumping]. [laughter] Gary Judy: [41:25] Do you remember how much the strike pay was back then? Not much… Milton Vann: I think it was $50. And actually, uh… Gary Judy: [41:31] $50 a week? Milton Vann: Yeah. And actually at that time, eh, we could actually [rattling] go down and – I think my wife and I, we went and got food stamps. They actually would give you food stamps. Gary Judy: Yeah. Milton Vann: But the, you know, the, uh, I think the Republican party or somebody decided that it was, [thumping] [clanking] you know, they were paying for a strike against themselves and, of course, the politicians changed that one. But [clanking] we actually [clanking] got food stamps that got us [tapping] through. Gary Judy: [Hm 41:54]. Marilyn Coulter: [41:54] [Oh 41:54], that, that had to have been interesting. You have the brand new bride and [laughter] be… Milton Vann: Yeah, I know. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: …out of work. Milton Vann: [Inaudible 41:59]. [laughter] John Fedewa: [Go on 42:01] strike the next 2 days. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [42:03] Speaking of pay, [throat clearing] can you – do you remember [clanking] [thumping] what you hired in at? Milton Vann: [I think so] [inaudible 42:08]. Pay? Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Milton Vann: I think it was like – I think it was just a little over [background noises] $3 an hour. I remember, eh, eh, at the time, uh, [thumping] bringing home $100, I thought I was rich. And, and, and it was so interesting, uh, about [clanking] pay – it's funny you mentioned that. Uh, I used to get real nervous every time I got a paycheck and I couldn't [clanking] figure out why I was getting nervous [background noises] and it sort of dawned on me. It was just like, you know, 'cause I was a student at state, it was so like getting your exam or something. [laughter] And I would actually get intensely nervous every time the paychecks were [laughter] given out and, like I said, it was for the longest I could never figure out why I was getting so nervous. But, uh, you know, bringing home $100 or $125 in, in ’67 [tapping] that was a lotta money. Marilyn Coulter: [Mm-hm 42:54]. Milton Vann: That was a lotta money [tapping] [I thought 42:57]. [papers rustling] Marilyn Coulter: Um, so, Earl – oh, I'm sorry. [tapping] [Inaudible 43:02]. [43:03] Can you tell us, Milton, now you stayed on the line and you stayed in glass for a long time and th-, now you, you came out as a quality control [inaudible 43:15]? Milton Vann: [tsk] Yeah. First, I went – after, uh, door glass, I transferred to, uh, water test, which was really a-, another interesting group. [sighing] Marilyn Coulter: [43:22] What did you do in water test? [43:23] [What’s inaudible 43:23]? Milton Vann: We would test, water test. We would actually – well we will text – we'll check the cars for water leaks and actually they had an online water test booth and the cars would actually go through, uh, a water, you know, and, and we had, uh – there was dye in the water and we had this light, which was a black light, which it actually would pick up the dye. I guess even before I got there, people would actually ride the car all the way through looking for leaks and that must've been like, you know, going through the funhouse. But actually t-, then they changed to, you know – the technique [throat clearing] with dye and then soon as the car would come out of the water test booth, we would open the car and shine our lights looking for leaks and if we saw a leak, we would actually repair that leak. And that was, uh, that was a fun job too because we were f-, in a small group and we had our own little world within a world back in the water test booth. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [44:15] Was that considered just a regular line job or was that a specialty job? Milton Vann: That was a specialty job. You know, it was, uh – it wasn’t a part of Quality even though it was in s-, kind of sort of like an inspection, it was never really technically a part of Quality Control but, uh, it was, it was controlled by Production. But, um, we were – checked for leaks and then if we found a leak, we would repair’m. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: How was it working – [clinking] I know you talked about the climate before. [44:40] How was it working on [clanking] the water test job on a hot, muggy day? Milton Vann: Well it was, it was hot but still, you know, [sighing] [papers rustling] eh, eh, the work was – [papers rustling] you know, we were doing like every fourth job or something and, eh, it wasn’t as intense as actually being on a – on the line working every job. So it, it wasn’t that hard but it just took, took a different kind of skill. You would have to be able to analyze and look and, and, and do that particular job and, you know, do it effectively. Marilyn Coulter: Now I know you said that oftentimes they were small and they were close groups. [45:14] What was it like to [engine humming] transfer or to go to another area that was a tightknit group? [45:21] What was that like joining that new group, being that new person in the [inaudible 45:26]? Milton Vann: Well, [sighing] you know, [inaudible 45:27] sure if everybody [laughter] is familiar with all the group dynamics and sometime it would – you would [background noises] have to – it was difficult, you know, because they didn’t know you, you didn’t know them a-, and it took a while for you to adapt in a group. But eventually, um, you know, everybody became friends and, you know, we worked together and we, [background noises] like I said, we – the best part about working at Fisher Body is, is having these little unique groups where to deal with the alienation of work, you know, you had your own little world and [engine humming] you live within that world within – in, in, in the, in the plant and, eh, and, uh, you know, you socialize, you traded skills, knowledge and you debated the, you debated the, the, the issues of the world. I mean we just weren't there just building cars. We're human beings and, and we were, uh – we interacted with one another. The big – we had this big – we were able to interact on all levels that human beings interact. Marilyn Coulter: [46:25] So out of your 30-plus years being there, what was your favorite job? Milton Vann: Well of course my last job was being a torque monitor, um, uh, 'cause that was [background noises] as far as workload, that’s, you know, considered [rattling] an easy job or a preferred job. Uh, it took me 27 years to get this job [laughter] but, uh, uh, [tsk] I – and I actually enjoyed that job because it was challenging. Uh, first we used dial wrenches and this device that we would actually measure the amount of torque on the – on all kinds of fasteners, screws, nuts, bolts and, eh, and for safety reason, that information had to, uh, be inputted, uh, eh, and, uh, it took a, a different kind of skill. Uh, and you had to really – you were sort of like – almost like a policeman. You know, you had to police your area. My Trim area had to make sure all the nuts and bolts and fasteners, everything had correct torque. [tapping] And, uh, that was, uh, a really unique job. And then what's really made it more challenging is that they went to what they call the DATAMYTE, which was really a handheld computer. And actually, we ended up teaching – or taught ourselves. You know, once th-, once they, the management had programmed the tool but we – again, [tapping] we had to go out there [background noises] and learn how to use this tool and, uh, and not only did we learn how to use the tool, we, we got [laughter] good at it, like everything else. You know, it's just the repetition and, and, and everybody’s ability to adapt and to, uh, take it even further. I mean we really got good at that stuff. Marilyn Coulter: [48:09] So, um, you said you're a little bit like a police officer and you [tapping] [sat there 48:14] and you had your skills that came in. I take it [clanking] your computer skills came in [at that time 48:18]? Milton Vann: Yeah. You know, because you're not intimidated. A lotta people would be intimidated by the new technology and, and I used to tell’m that, uh, bef-, I know before I left, this one guy, he was really [sighing] hesitant about, you know, the job and I kept telling him over and over again, this is a good job [laughter] and, and, and if you give this job up, [throat clearing] you're crazy and, and you – you'll learn these skills. [thumping] And the biggest thing, uh, I think for new hires who coming in there with – who haven't really had any kind of skill level of doing anything is not to be intimidated by these jobs. And these jobs are complex. And the public a-, if, if they only knew how difficult these jobs are. But if you stick it out and you, you learn to do it, I mean, eh, it's like your, your own mind begins to solve all these – I mean you just – you [don’t even figure it out ‘cause 49:05] your, your, your mind, your own intelligence will figure out how to do all this stuff. [thumping] Marilyn Coulter: [49:11] Now with your 30-plus years and General Motors had a lotta different products come – programs come through and, and after you changed jobs while you were there and there were also different pro-, programs that came through, did you ever get involved in anything, employee processes that they had and how do you think that affected, um, us a business? Milton Vann: [49:33] Employees’ processes like? Marilyn Coulter: You know, where they had employee involvement, [beeping] where they started giving employees more hands on, gave them more responsibility. [49:42] How – did you play in, in part [clicking] with any of those… Milton Vann: No, not very… Marilyn Coulter: …processes? Milton Vann: Very little. I didn’t really get involved in that. But I knew the, the people… [beeping] [squeaking] [clanking] Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Milton Vann: …the people who did [squeaking] and [thumping] again, I was amazed, uh, they were able to – I mean really, it's not the engineers who are really building these cars. It's the people out there [clanking] on that assembly line who are building these cars and they're the ones who have to look at the PADs, the production, uh, uh – I forgot what [laughter] PADs stands for but they would [clanking] give the description [clanking] of, of the job and what, you know, what it took, you know, to do it but they would – and supervisors didn’t even want to deal with – they would hand it to the workers. And people gotta understand that those people out there on the line, they solve these problems. They actually got in and built these cars. You know, it wasn’t no engineers standing over here telling you what to do. People did it themselves. You know, they figured it out themselves. They look at all the data and stuff [clanking] and they analyze this stuff and they built these cars. You know, of course, the, you know, the engineers and all these other people are involved but the people themselves really are the ones who end up building these cars. [tapping] Marilyn Coulter: [50:48] Now I know people they came together to build cars but [engine humming] did they also come together for dinners, holidays, benefits? [50:56] Can you tell us anything about that type of culture? [50:58] How did they come together like that, [if there were 51:00] any benefits or dinners that they have? Milton Vann: No. I didn’t do that too much but, you know, within the plant, of course, we always as, as time went on, uh, and, and people discover that, you know, they could have a lotta fun by having these little dinners of – like on Friday nights, uh – I mean at one point in time, people used to go run over to the bar and socialize, uh, but, uh, as they began to crack down [laughter] on that, uh, and it wasn’t really a real problem but still, it became easier for like people to come in on Fridays with, you know, just bringing dinners and we had a, we had a good time. We had picnics and we enjoyed, you know, [inaudible 51:34] we did our jobs and stuff and, and at, uh, at lunchtime, we would actually socialize. Uh, you know, we really had a good – that was, that was fun. I mean we actually had fun at work [laughter] and I don’t know if it offends management or not but w-, you know, we, we made it, you know, tolerable in s-, an intolerable posit-, condition sometimes but we enjoyed it when we could. Marilyn Coulter: Um, there's a, you know, people call Lansing the Capitol of Quality? They call Lansing the Capitol of Quality. [52:14] What do you attribute that to? [tapping] Milton Vann: Hm. Again I have to go back to the diversity of the w-, the workforce. Um, [engine humming] eh, people s-, took their jobs seriously. They, they, they did their job once they understed-, understood, um, and the flexibility to undergo the constant changes. Uh, I mean it takes a lot. Uh, when I first hired in there, you know, they may change your job maybe once a year or if they had to shut the line down, they may add a few things on you and they would leave you alone but the ability to adapt, you know, when, when I left outta there, I mean they were changing people’s jobs about once a month and s-, the ability to be able to adapt and, and to keep the quality up, I mean that was, uh, to me that’s – that w-, that’s fantastic and that’s, uh, you know, attributed to the workforce. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Cheryl McQuaid? Cheryl McQuaid: Milton, um, we've interviewed a few people and you’d mentioned that you were just, you know, you're having fun. Um, some of the people [thumping] we interviewed have said they have gotten put in the trunk and sent through water tests. [53:20] Did you ever [background noises] see anybody [throat clearing] or let anybody out of the trunks or did you know that that happened be-…? Milton Vann: The only time where everybo-, the only time I remember actually being [inaudible 53:30] on offline water testing were put in the trunk with a flashlight. I don’t remember anybody actually in the trunk going through the water test booth. But we at the end of the line had a, a end of the line water test booth where were would – especially at the beginning of the year, I mean you would get in the trunk and somebody’d run a, a hose and you'd try to detect where the leak is coming from but, uh, I don’t remember anybody [laughter] actually going – was put in the trunk. No. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [53:54] Not as a prank? Milton Vann: No. Yeah, [background noises] if it was a prank maybe but not – that wasn’t, [throat clearing] uh, f-, Fisher [tapping] policy. Marilyn Coulter: And, and when you speak of Fisher policy, we know there's a lot of things that are done that are Fisher policy [clicking] but we know that there are some folks who, um, they did things to get through the work, [tapping] whether it be a prank or maybe if it was a radio or read that got them through. [54:17] Did you notice that? [54:17] Did you notice a lotta radios [inaudible 54:19]? Milton Vann: [sighing] Yeah, because like I say, you know, we were – we're human beings. You weren't robots and you had to have some kind of distraction. Uh, those were long, [engine humming] long days doing repetitious jobs and if you had a, if you had a radio or you had a, a, a book to read or you can – like when I w-, was going to Michigan State, I actually would write, write papers in between lines. You know, this is before computes and stuff. You know, you'd actually have to do the, the, the writing but, you know, you took your few seconds to glance and then you'd go to your job and you would think. I mean it was, [yeah 54:49], the work itself became automatic and then – which really, [clicking] you know, you know, you didn’t think about it. I mean you did it and – but your mind was preoccupied with other things if y-, if not, you probably would go crazy. Marilyn Coulter: [55:03] So that kept you sane being able… Milton Vann: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: …to have that? Milton Vann: Eh, you always had something going. I mean people would come in there with, um – guys would come in with, with, uh, manuals on transmissions and – I mean I thought they were physics text. People just understand that, uh – to, to me the most amazing thing [thumping] is – it's that the, the, the level of understanding and the level of skill in this plant that, uh, you know, with [knocking] the general public wouldn't normally associate. I mean some of those, those manuals that these guys would bring in and, uh, like I said, they looked like physics textbooks. I mean they were doing some pretty, pretty intense stuff and they were doing this on their own between [clanking] cars. I mean they would look at the stuff. Marilyn Coulter: Now I know some people had the skilled trades people do things like, they called them government jobs. [55:49] Did you ever had anybody make anything special for you that helped you do y-, any of your jobs? Milton Vann: Uh, I'm sure that they made tools and stuff for, you know, for us. Uh, uh, you know, they – 'cause when we worked in door glass, you know, we actually had fixtures and stuff and they had to be [clanking] maintained and stuff but… Marilyn Coulter: [56:11] But no special toolboxes or anything like that for you? [background noises] Milton Vann: Uh, [sighing] not really but I knew guys would – from skilled trades would make people [tapping] [laughter] toolboxes. They would just about do anything for – you know, [thumping] I've – I remember one time bringing something in there and, and, uh, [tapping] and they were able to [thumping] repair it, you know, because I didn’t have the tools at home, [thumping] uh, you know, one of the, uh, eh, eh, the toolmen. But like I said, the, the big thing too was that it served as a resource for, you know, if you didn’t know anything or you, eh, if you wanna find out how things work, you could always find somebody on that, uh, l-, that assembly line or in that place that knew how. Marilyn Coulter: Well you’ve been in that plant. You’ve studied there. You’ve worked there. You’ve learned things there and had things repaired there. [56:59] Now after some 30-plus years, we've gone through a lot of name changes, so what did you think about that and also what do you think about now after you’ve given 30-plus years there that it's closing now? [thumping] [57:12] What do you think about that? [clicking] Milton Vann: Well for what – as far as the name change, I always tell anybody, eh, you know, the day I – when I die and when they put obituary in the, eh, in the paper, I worked at Fisher Body. I didn’t work at BOC or Lansing Car Assembly. I worked at Fisher Body. And as far as the c-, closing and it's a, [thumping] eh, it's, it's sad even though I know, you know, we all have to move on but, uh, it was a u-, unique way of life and it's given me a, it's given me a good life. It's given me an education. I've, uh, traveled the world. I've been to Europe 4 different times. [thumping] Uh, you know, I've been – it's been to f-, good for me, uh, you know, [clanking] when things I needed, uh, you know to, to enhance my own life in my own homelife, like I said I used it as resource. The people were always there whether they came over to your house, which I had a friend, he was an electrician, come over and do some work for me. I mean it, uh, you know, other than the paycheck, it, it was a good life. Earl Nicholson: Uh, Earl Nicholson. [58:18] Um, is there, eh, eh – in 30 years in the factory or 30-plus years in the factory and, uh, you're coming up on retirement now, uh, [clanking] uh, did you – were you – did you, you put an I-, [popping] you put a signed letter out on the floor, I believe? Milton Vann: Right. Earl Nicholson: [58:38] Could you, could you… Milton Vann: [58:38] [For] [inaudible 58:38]? Earl Nicholson: Yeah. [58:39] Could you tell us what that’s about? [tapping] Milton Vann: Well the first part of the letter I [clanking] [praised 58:42], you know, the people I work with, um, [tapping] the people who went out of their way to do things for me. And the, uh, the second part or the letter was a critique against our Local 602 Union. And I've always been one who, um [background noises] – I feel like when you live in a democracy, those – the leadership of, eh – you know, you had to make sure that the leaders serve the, the people and I think the way [thumping] our Local is structured that it basically serves the interest of the leadership and, you know, I can't describe it any better if I [background noises] – maybe I should've brought a copy of it here but, uh, it [clicking] was my critique against the, the Local 602. Earl Nicholson: [59:27] But, uh, all in all, [inaudible 59:28] do you, [background noises] do you – would you say that you looked favorable upon the union and its, its activities? Milton Vann: Uh, [sighing] probably maybe, uh, at the, the national level but I think that, uh, the s-, these – the way the locals are structured around personality types, uh, and as much as I praise the workers in the plant, there – we got so many people who think that, uh, they shouldn't have to work and, like I said [thumping] [in my paper 1:00:00], they do anything under the sun to get out of work and that’s the basis of work in the plant but, uh, somehow thinking one is entitled because they belong to a local union or, or belong to, to the leadership, uh, I think that’s just, just – that’s antiunion. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: [1:00:22] Um, since we talked about unions, would you say that [tapping]– you came in the ’60s, in 1967 and when they had activity from the, from the line from the [inaudible 1:00:40], [thumping] do you think that some of that might have came because, because the union did so much for’m some of them got separated and didn’t stay as active in what was going on in their local union politics, understanding that the membership is the strongest body of the [local union 1:00:54]? Milton Vann: Now say that again. Marilyn Coulter: [1:00:57] Well [throat clearing] during times when times were lean and needed the union to help us fight and struggle but then when people were complacent and happy and they had a lotta benefits, good paychecks, they didn’t stay on top on – of or as active… Milton Vann: Hm. Marilyn Coulter: …so certain things happened? [background noises] [1:01:19] I mean certain people stayed in power [engine humming] because a lot of people [not getting as active 1:01:22]? Milton Vann: I don’t know because I don’t think the union actually encouraged – the local actually encouraged participation of every – even though they give lip service to that but I, I don’t think they actually encourage. I think you, you get a small elite group that was more interested in maintaining their power and privilege at, at the union hall and I think they could care less whether people participated. As long as the, the, the elitist group, like I said, a-, able to maintain they power and privilege. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. All right. Um, but now for whatever reason, they're getting ready to start, um, going to a new plant, uh, into Delta. [1:01:02] What words of wisdom would you like to give to those new people who are going to break ground and start a new venture into a new place [of employment 1:02:09]? Milton Vann: [tsk] Well, [laughter] you know, the auto industry is in – at least the American auto industry is in big trouble. Uh, uh, they have to just continue what they're doing and, and, uh, [engine humming] I think the work is gonna have to start, you know, really kinda t-, taking over, uh, and really proving to the, the public that [wants them 1:02:40] for who they are and that these are the real people who actually build these cars and, and that, uh, somehow the public got to understand that, uh, you know, nothing is given – you know, we're not given anything. People, when they make this money, they're working hard for this money. This is hard work. This is no game. Uh, this is no 15 minute coffee breaking every, you know, every hour. That, th-, these people are really s-, working and, and, and now they're working for their own survival, not only their survival, my survival as a retiree because, uh, General Motors and Ford, you know, they're gonna have to survive and they gonna have to – they g-, and the company really is gonna have to be the one that’s gonna change the perception and, you know, let Americans know that, uh, you know, that the auto industry is, uh, is competitive, that we – we're gonna make good products and we do make good products but, uh, the, the population somehow think that everything that’s made in Asia is some – for some reason, it's, it's, it's so much superior, [engine humming] you know. But the people are gonna have to – they're gonna have to take more and more control over the, the workforce and th-, and they're gonna have to make these jobs like real professional jobs. Y-, I don’t care what – whether you're sweeping the floor or whatever, you're gonna have to, you know – you're gonna be – you're a professional. It's what you do. [engine humming] Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [1:04:09] Um, was there anything that we didn’t touch on that you'd like [clanking] to touch on? [papers rustling] Milton Vann: Like I said, uh, my ideal of having a diverse workforce, uh, one thing that really bothered me was, was when they decided to start testing people to get in the plant. In years past, anybody could come into the plant if they were willing to work and I think by testing, you know, you're getting a, a homogenous-type of worker. I think if they relied on, you know – 'cause you're always gonna have people who are going to be able to meet the skill level. I mean if a guy can't pass an exam doesn’t mean that he can't tear that transmission apart and to me that’s – you know, I was just totally opposed to that and, and, you know, eh, and you gotta have a diverse workforce, which means if, if, if, you know, like, like you had people in that place, like we had lawyers. You had people who never even finished high school. Some even went to grade school. Marilyn Coulter: [Mm-hm 1:05:22]. Milton Vann: But that didn’t have anything to do with the, um, you know, the, the abilities there… Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:05:27]. Milton Vann: …but when you start, you know, think you're get gonna a type or particular worker who satisfies somebody’s, uh, scheme of things, I, I think that’s wrong and I think it's gotta continue to stay open and s-, continue to stay diverse. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Well thank you for sharing. Milton Vann: Okay. Marilyn Coulter: And thank you for being a part of the project. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you, Milton. Earl Nicholson: Thank you, Milton. John Fedewa: Thank you, Milton. Gary Judy: Appreciate it. [throat clearing] /lo