Willie Campbell, an African American, discusses his career as a UAW production worker and skilled trades millwright at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Earl Nicholson: [recorder clicking] Uh, Earl Nicholson, uh, we’re going to move on to a, a different subject now. Um, I’d like to, uh, cover, uh, um, more personal items. [0:19] Um, what, what would you consider, uh, to be your saddest moment in the factory? Willie Campbell: Um, wow, I don’t know. I can’t recall what’s really been my saddest moment, um, no. Earl Nicholson: Wow, that’s a, I think that’s a, that’s a, I think that’s a, a testament to the type of man that you are and that’s a... Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. [0:50] Would it be the day you left when you retired or would that be your happier moment or? Willie Campbell: After I was hired [inaudible 0:57]? Jerri Smith: [0:58] Like your saddest moment, would it be the day you retired or would it be, that be your happiest moment? Willie Campbell: That would be the happiest day. Jerri Smith: Yeah. Willie Campbell: [laughter] That would be the happiest day I retired. Uh, I don’t know. I was so happy to get into skilled trade and, uh, and, you know, I, I just, I was just proud to be there, to be, uh, in, uh, be doing something I really enjoyed doing. I always, always never could, I never had the patience to have to do the same thing over and over. I was – I don’t know. I think my saddest thing when, when I had a job when I had to do the same thing every day over and over and I could not [inaudible 1:40]. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. [1:42] So the saddest times were when you were doing production work? Willie Campbell: Yeah. That was my saddest time. That was my hard time. Michael Fleming: And then your happiest time was when you finally... Willie Campbell: Got in to skilled. Michael Fleming: ...uh, uh, were, uh, were accepted when the OSHA came in and, and set the standards and asked why they didn’t have any minorities and you finally got a chance to be in s-, skilled trades and that was one of the happiest times. Willie Campbell: One of the happiest moments. Then after I got my journeyman’s card. Michael Fleming: Even happier yet. Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 2:09] Willie Campbell, journeyman millwright. Earl Nicholson: So, uh, tell us, um, were there any memorable pranks? Earl Nicholson. [2:22] Were there any memorable pranks that, uh, were played on any of the people in your group? Willie Campbell: Uh, yes. We used to have those gas trucks and have a spark plug and we used to take a little [inaudible 2:35] wire and hook’m up, [tapping] hook’m up to the spark plug, [coughing] put them on the seat and when you start it up it would give you a shock in the butt. Male: Oh [inaudible 2:44]. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. You had an awful lot of apprentices [laughter] and apprentices come and apprentices go. [2:53] I’m sure you had something particular that you did with your, or did, or did you, did you have something that you did with each of your apprentices as they came in to your, uh, uh, to be an apprentice under you as a journeyman? Willie Campbell: Hm. We used to have water fights. [laughter] Michael Fleming: Tell, tell me about the water fights. Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 3:16] once we get through work, we used to on Fridays, uh, last day we would take five gallon buckets of water and [inaudible 3:26]. We got the last guy to walk in the shop and we would, we would drown his butt. [laughter] And [laughter] that was – uh, uh, let me see. What’s the biggest prank I ever pulled on an apprentice? I can’t remember [inaudible 3:44] apprentice. I used to have an apprentice I used to call him student all the time. Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Willie Campbell: And, uh, and when he, uh, got to be a journeyman, he, when he finished and he told me [inaudible 3:57] he says, uh, “I’m a journeyman now. I finished my apprenticeship.” He says “What’s you gonna call me now?” And I, I called him professor. [laughter] He retired and I went to his retirement party on a Saturday and he, and he said, he be tellin’ everybody I used to call him student and he says “I used to hate that.” And I said “Why didn’t you say something to me?” He says “Well, I didn’t want you to chew me out.” [laughter] [Inaudible 4:26] when I was coming through we used to be rough on them. And, uh, and, um, the old journeymen, boy, they would take you through, through the ropes but they were fair. At one point, that one guy he wasn’t fair with me but, uh, I think that, that really helped me out. I, uh, it’s, I always say if you carry yourself in a way that people can respect you and you respect yourself. People go through life [inaudible 4:56] you walk around with a chip on your shoulder. Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Willie Campbell: And I never, my mother said never – and she always used to tell me “There’s nobody on God’s earth any better than you and you no better than anybody.” And I took it to my, my heart. I don’t care who you are, who you come from and what you are, you ain’t no better than I am. Like I had a guy ask me, he told me once, he says, uh, I was in, uh, working in the booth cleaning work and this guy, he says “I wish I was like you.” And I said “What do you mean you wish you were like me? Well, what’s your problem?” He said “Well, when you get dirty, you can’t tell.” I said “Let me tell you one thing, my ass stinks just like yours. I get up every morning, I put my pants on the same way you put your pants on. My wife had a baby the same way your wife had a baby.” I said “The only difference between you and I, your skin is light and mine is dark. I bleed, I die. If I don’t believe in religion, I, I go to hell. If you don’t, you going to hell.” I says “Now what’s the difference?” “Well, I didn’t mean no harm.” “If you didn’t mean no harm, you would’ve never said it.” I said “I’m not a monkey. I don’t hang by my tail. I walk down the street the same way you walkin’.” And he thought I was going to get mad. And then I had [inaudible 6:25] I had another guy was my trainee and we were puttin’ a chain together, conveyor chain and sometimes the pin on the conveyor chain it’s flat on one side, it’s flat so we can slide it through and it won’t roll. So he was on the side and I was pushing the pin through the [inaudible 6:45]. I asked him, I says “Is that a slot, uh, uh, flat on that, on that chain linkage or is it round?” He says “No. It’s round as a nigger’s ass.” I was up in the basket, you know, he thought I was going to get down and take a hammer to him. I got down out of the basket. I explained to him, I said “Young man, let me tell you something. You look up in Webster’s Dictionary, Webster’s Dictionary says anybody can be a nigger. Anybody act a fool is a nigger. I asked you a plain simple question.” I said “Now you my nigger.” [laughter] He didn’t know what to say. I said “You don’t believe it, you go home and look in the dictionary.” And I said “You teach your kids not to never call a black man that [inaudible 7:37] get hurt.” I said “I just don’t believe in violence.” I said “I’m gonna tell you the same thing but look in the dictionary. Go home and look in the dictionary if you don’t believe me, see what Webster’s says.” And after that, him and I were the best of friends but he got, he got [inaudible 7:56]. He, he was scared after he said it. He was shakin’. [Inaudible 8:00]. I think if you’re smart enough, you can take and use words, use common sense and you can embarrass a person more than you can if you was to get violent with them. That’s my belief in life. Earl Nicholson: So – Earl Nicholson here. So, we’re comin’ up on retirement now. Willie Campbell: Uh-huh. Boy, that’s good. Earl Nicholson: [8:28] What, uh, what year are we talkin’? Willie Campbell: Uh, 14 years ago. I don’t know when was that, ninety-, ’92, ’93. Earl Nicholson: ‘92, ’93. [8:44] And, uh, were you looking forward to retirement? Willie Campbell: Oh yes. [laughter] Oh yes, I was. I was so – I thought I was so blessed to be able to work [inaudible 8:55] 38 ½ years and be able to retire and I was in good health. I could do anything I wanted to do. I didn’t have much money but I had pr-, pretty good health, uh, a good wife, a good home. Earl Nicholson: [9:17] Is there, is there anything that you’re, that you’re doing now outside of the factory now that you’re retired? Willie Campbell: You mean right now? Earl Nicholson: [9:23] Uh, is there anything doing, that you’re doing outside of the factory now that you’re retired and have any of the skills that you have learned in the factory have they helped you outside of the factory? Willie Campbell: No. ‘Cause I don’t do nothin’ but play golf [laughter] and mow my lawn and do my gardenin’. [laughter] No. I, I have done a little welding. I did some welding but, uh, I, um, I just don’t want to work no more [inaudible 9:52]. Earl Nicholson: You’re fully retired. You put your time in and now you want to, you want to enjoy your [inaudible 9:57]. Willie Campbell: I want to enjoy every moment. I [inaudible 9:59]. I like to be around people that enjoy life. I like to – that’s why, that’s why, that’s why I like golfing now ‘cause out on the golf courses everybody out there the same thing, the same age and the same religion, the same color, you’re out there to try to beat that golf course and that’s why I love golf so much. Gary Judy: Gary Judy. [10:21] So now do you golf with some of your workers that you worked with in the plant? Willie Campbell: Oh yes. Gary Judy: [10:26] You guys still keep in contact? Willie Campbell: Yeah. Mm-hm, mm-hm. [Inaudible 10:30] lot of my guys I golf with. I could golf every day if somebody called me to golf. That’s what make my wife so mad. She says “You know too many people. Too many people know you.” I tease her sometimes. I say “You know, you’re married to a celebrity.” [laughter] [Inaudible 10:46]. We was always down in, uh, uh, Alabama and people holler, “Hey Willie, what the hell are you doin’ down here.” And we was up, way up north. Male: [10:57] So you go back to Alabama, Alabama to visit now? Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 11:00] my wife has some folks down there. I don’t know, none of my peoples, I don’t know anybody that live in the south. I [inaudible 11:06] of the people that I have living now I have no aunts or uncles on my mom’s side or my dad’s side. I have my one brother, um, three kids, biological kids, uh, two grandsons, and I think about four or five cousins. That’s my [inaudible 11:32]. [tapping] Male: [11:32] So you, you, and you don’t ever get the urge to go back to...? Willie Campbell: No. [laughter] I like to go down there and golf but I have no reason to go down. I don’t know nobody [inaudible 11:41]. Male: [11:41] You don’t, you don’t want to go back and visit any of your, your former homes or...? Willie Campbell: No. I don’t know where it’s at. Male: Oh, okay. Willie Campbell: I’ve never been there. I don’t, I don’t, [banging] I’ve never been, I’ve never been where I was born since my folks left down there over 70 years ago, 70 years ago. I’ve never been back. Male: So you’ll be a Michigan... Willie Campbell: I have no reason [inaudible 12:01]. Male: ...be a Michigan man for the rest of your life. Willie Campbell: Yeah. That’s all I know [laughter] [inaudible 12:04]. Male: That’s fantastic. Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 12:10]. Male: Gentlemen, anything else? Michael Fleming: Absolutely not. Um, I, I think you did a wonderful job, uh, um, taking care of everything we’ve asked you. Um, this is Mike Fleming. Uh, uh, I did want to ask you this. [12:25] Um, when, when you look at where we are now and, uh, the state of, um, General Motors, what do you, what, what do you think about the future for those individuals that are still working at General Motors? How do you feel about that? Willie Campbell: Uh, I, every night when I say my prayer I just hope and pray that we can find a way that General Motors can get back together. We have too many young people. Uh, I have my son. I have grandkids. Uh, my son, my youngest son established a home here. He have two sons and there are so many other young people. That, you know, and, and to me I, I just cannot figure out for my life why so, people want to make so much money, you know, these big shots. And it’s all right to make the money but why you want to just shut this country down? I, I cannot see why we’ve been in so much all our, all, everything we do now is coming from Japan, China and that really hurts my heart to see these things happen. Why are we doing this? Why are we selling our country out? We’ve fought too hard for this country for them to sell everything [inaudible 13:55]. Free trade is fair enough but why make 110% of everything you get over there and we’re outta work here. Gas prices going up. Why are these people making, uh, trillions and trillions of dollars and “but I love my country.” No, you don’t love your country. You love your pocketbook. You don’t love, you don’t give a damn about this country. You don’t give a damn about your neighbor. That’s how I feel. Michael Fleming: Yeah. I, I can understand what you’re saying ‘cause General Motors, um, has, um, helped build this country. Willie Campbell: Yeah. Michael Fleming: When we were in war, I don’t know if you [inaudible 14:35]. Willie Campbell: Yeah. I remember when, when they’re building shells and [inaudible 14:37] over here at, at Olds [inaudible 14:39] WWII when, when they used to have [inaudible 14:43] old plant was there when they were buildin’ and Cadillac was, uh, buildin’ the motors for, for the tanks and stuff. I remember General Motors did a lot [inaudible 14:55] now why all of a sudden [papers rustling] they got to close down when they used to build everything, trains, buses, cars, refrigerators. Now all of a sudden hey, we, we’re broke. Why? You know, somebody [inaudible 15:09] just... Michael Fleming: Times have changed haven’t they? Willie Campbell: That’s what everybody say. I talk to a lot of young people. They say times have changed. You know, things ain’t like they used to be. [Inaudible 15:21] things are not like they used to be. If my kids were bad, I would whoop their ass. I didn’t beat’m, I spanked’m. I never slapped them upside the head. I whooped his butt. Now, kids tell their parents where to go. You see my kids, my son at 49 years old he will not tell me where to go. If he did, I would send him where to go. [laughter] I was at, we was in, my wife and I were in the store the other day, [inaudible 15:49] and there was a little boy who was so bad, I mean [inaudible 15:53] running up and down the aisle. [vroom, vroom] His mom got ready to take him home, put him in, in, in his [inaudible 15:59], he was [inaudible 16:00] his mom. I said [inaudible 16:03] what the hell are you raising here? [laughter] He’s doin’ this now, what is he going to be like when he is grown, you know? Why are you raising your kids like this? Why are you raising animals? And I think people have forgotten what parents are. Parents are to teach your child to respect you, to respect other people’s property, to get an education and be what you want to be. I got some grand-, well, we have some grandkids, Mike, shoot, we don’t even want, great grandkids we don’t even want in our house ‘cause their p-, parents don’t give a damn what they do. Michael Fleming: Willie, [coughing] has anybody in your family, we talked about benefits earlier, had an opportunity to utilize your TAP benefit, Tuition Assistance Plan? Willie Campbell: From this plant now? Michael Fleming: From General Motors, you know, that’s one of the benefits that we have. [16:54] Has anyone in your family been able to utilize the Tuition, Tuition Assistance? Willie Campbell: Uh-uh. My brother, he used to work for General Motors and, uh, uh, but he got fired. He do get some benefits, some little bit but that’s about all. The only thing I got – I have a brother-in-law. Michael Fleming: [17:13] Have any of your kids went to school and used the...? Willie Campbell: General Motors plan? Michael Fleming: Yes. Willie Campbell: Um, no, no. My, my youngest son now, I don’t know if that counts or not, he’s going to the new plant. Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Willie Campbell: He has to go to school. He’s, he’s going to be a, setting to be, be a group leader. Michael Fleming: Okay. Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 17:33]. He’s working on that now. Michael Fleming: Okay. Willie Campbell: Chris, uh, Chris, Christopher Campbell. Michael Fleming: [17:40] Um, Willie, is there anything that we haven’t asked you that you would like to talk about? Willie Campbell: No. Michael Fleming: [17:50] We pretty much covered it all you think? Willie Campbell: I just – uh, no, no, no. Male: Earl, do you got anything? Earl Nicholson: Um, uh, Willie, thank you for, uh, coming today. Willie Campbell: Uh-huh. Earl Nicholson: Um, uh, uh, this, the, the, the interviews that we’re doing today, they’re going to be, they’re, they’re, this is mostly research material for Michigan State and this is going to be something that people are going to be able to look back on and they’re going to be able to listen to this and they’re going to be able to hear your stories and, uh, you know, and it’s, it’s important that we get this information. Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 18:23]. Earl Nicholson: And I just want to thank you, uh, [inaudible 18:25] thank you and the rest of the committee thanks you. Male: Thank you Willie. Male: Thank you. Willie Campbell: And I’ll be looking for some [inaudible 18:29] from your wife. Male: Yeah. [laughter] Michael Fleming: Willie, I got a question for you. [recording clicking] [18:34] When you retired, Willie, what did they, what did they give you? Did they give you – this is Mike Fleming talking. Did they give you a Fisher Body Coach? And through the years you worked here, what did they give you? Did they give you any rings? What did you get from Fisher Body [inaudible 18:45]? Willie Campbell: I, I got, I got, a, a, a Coach, you know, and, uh, they give me that. Um, each 25 years, you know, you get, uh, I, I got a watch and then I used to get those little [inaudible 18:59]. And, uh, the guys were real good there. I mean I, I got an ice fishin’, uh, tent. I got ice fishin’ poles. I, I got more money than, uh, when I retired than anybody retired from skilled trade. I was out of skilled, uh, retired for five years and I had colon cancer and, uh, they taken out 22 inches of my colon. I’m fortunate they got it all out. And that’s something they generally don’t do when, once you retire they don’t take up but I got over $700 from the people that I worked with. Male: They collected to give it to you. Willie Campbell: Mm-hm, mm-hm. And every time something happened now, they always do. I’d be the first one they call. Willie, come do this and Willie do this and that’s why I say, you know... Male: You were very... Willie Campbell: ...if you carry yourself. Male: You were very well liked in the, in the plant. I just wondered, you know, you said you got the 25-year ring. You got, uh, the Fisher Body Coach which... Willie Campbell: Mm-hm. Male: ...has got emeralds and whatnot on it and you, you got some other things. At 15 and 10 years did you get anything at all? Willie Campbell: No. We didn’t get anything [inaudible 20:17]. Male: Okay. [Inaudible 20:18]. Willie Campbell: If I did, it’s been such a long time [inaudible 20:19]. Male: So when you got to 20 years you started... Willie Campbell: [Inaudible 20:21]. Male: ...getting stuff. Willie Campbell: 25 I had a watch. Male: You said an ice fishing tent, like an ice fishing shanty? Willie Campbell: Yeah. Ice fishing shanty. Male: [20:29] Did they give you that, the Company gave you that? Willie Campbell: No. Uh-uh. [Inaudible 20:32] my workers did. Male: When you retired. Willie Campbell: Uh-huh, when I retired. Male: Oh. [squeaking] Male: Okay, Willie. Thanks a lot for coming, brother. Male: [Inaudible 20:38] fantastic. Thank you. Willie Campbell: Yeah. [recorder clicking] /mlc