John Couthen, an African American, discusses his career as a UAW production worker and GM manager at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Marilyn Colter: Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team Interview. Today is Tuesday, May 31st, 2006. The time is approximately 10:00 a.m. We are at the Lansing Delta Plant, and today we are talking – we will first introduce the team. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. Marilyn Coulter: And I’m Marilyn Coulter. Today we’re interviewing John Couthen. [0:21] John, will you please state your name and spell it for us, please? John Couthen: John Couthen, C-O-U-T-H-E-N. Marilyn Coulter: [0:28] And your address, please? John Couthen: 2100 Ridgeline Drive, Lansing, Michigan. Marilyn Coulter: [0:33] Are you married? John Couthen: Yes, I am. Marilyn Coulter: [0:35] And do you have children? John Couthen: Yes, I do. Marilyn Coulter: [0:37] And they are boys? John Couthen: Two boys, uh, ages 23 and 21. Marilyn Coulter: [0:41] Now, where were you born? John Couthen: I was born right here in Lansing. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. [0:46] And now what was your education level? John Couthen: I am six credit hours – or, excuse me, six classes shy of my bachelor’s degree in finance, so it’s within sight now. Been workin’ on that since 2000, um little bit at a, at a time. So I’m lookin’ forward to knockin’ that out here in the next 12 months. Marilyn Coulter: Well, you’ve been very busy. [chuckling] John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: Your plate is full. [1:10] Now, um, were you in the military? John Couthen: Nope, never spent any time in the military. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [1:15] And what did your parents do? John Couthen: My father was, uh, a material handler at Oldsmobile here in Lansing. Eventually he migrated to the Oldsmobile Transportation Group as an [over-the-road 1:27] semi driver bringing parts from the [stamping 1:31] plant to the body plant. My mother was a sh-, a shipping clerk at the SPO Plant here in Lansing. Marilyn Coulter: [1:40] S-, so you’ve been real familiar with General Motors and the Lansing automotive history. John Couthen: Absolutely. Marilyn Coulter: [1:44] Um, can you tell us what was it like to, um, grow up in Lansing? And were you familiar with Fisher Body even though your parents worked at Olds? John Couthen: Sure. Um, it was great growing up in Lansing. I mean, I, I couldn’t imagine growing up anywhere else. Obviously kind of have some prejudice towards your hometown, but I, I’ve got, you know – or reflecting back, I think Lansing was a great place to grow up at, and you couldn’t get away from the GM impact, because everybody worked for GM; my parents, uh, all my uncles. Um, uh, just everybody either worked for or one of their spouses worked for GM [inaudible 2:29]. Marilyn Coulter: [2:30] Um, what did you know about the Lansing Fisher Body plant? John Couthen: Well the Fisher Body plant – this happens to be my mother’s oldest brother that lives here lives on Ottawa Street, three houses from the corner, which is where Fisher Body is at. So, spending time at his house, you know, as a little kid, you know, you’re right there by the plant. Um, my earliest recollections of GM, though, go back to when I was maybe 4 or 5 years old and we used to walk – my, my dad used to walk to work. We lived on Butler Street, which is now – the, the actual driveway to the house that we lived in is the, uh, uh, where you turn in to go to the parking lot for the historical museum. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. John Couthen: So from there, it was only about a 3-block walk down Butler to, um, the, uh, main gate for Oldsmobile at, at the time. And so we – my mom, myself, and my younger sister would walk my dad to work in the afternoon, he worked the afternoon shifts, and then we would go – there was a corner that we’d meet my two older sisters on, and then they would come back home from school. That was a daily routine; walk dad to work and then walk my sisters back home from school. Marilyn Coulter: So that was really neat. [4:00] Having your uncle live right there on Ottawa, is there anything that you remember seeing about the Fisher Body plant as a kid? And what did you think about that big green building? John Couthen: It was noisy. More than anything else, you, you always heard just constant hammering, you know, and, uh, several years later, in my adult years, actually when I hired in, I found out what the hammering was all about. It was right there on the corner of Verlinden and Michigan Avenue was the door department for both what was then the A Line and the B Line, and in the door department, you installed the doors, and to align those doors to get’m to sit right in the door opening and properly set for door glass and things like that, you had to use a 5-pound machine hammer to drive the hinges forward or backwards to get the door to line up, and that’s where all the hammering was coming from. But it was always noisy, um, you know, but y-, you really couldn’t see anything on the inside except for, you know, when the, uh – it got real dark at night you could see the bodies passin’ by. So... Marilyn Coulter: Hm. John Couthen: ...that’s, that’s what I remember from bein’ over at his house. Marilyn Coulter: Doug Rademacher. Doug Rademacher: [5:11] John, you said you grew up on Butler Street. Uh, your uncle lived on Ottawa. Can you tell me d-, which high school did you attend? John Couthen: I ended up going to Harry Hill High School, uh, which is now the Hill Vocational Center, uh, here in Lansing. That was, uh – my family moved to the south side of town, uh, 1970. Uh, I think was 9 or 10 years old. Goin’ on 10 anyways. Doug Rademacher: [5:39] Just knowing the demographics, I had pictured you between... John Couthen: Right. Doug Rademacher: ...the Olds and the Fisher Plant. John Couthen: Right. Doug Rademacher: On Butler Street, I thought... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Doug Rademacher: ...you may have attended... John Couthen: That would have been... Doug Rademacher: ...Sexton High School. John Couthen: ...Sexton, yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: And, uh... John Couthen: But, uh, we, we moved – I was in 5th grade when we moved. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Marilyn Coulter: [5:54] And, um, now what did you do before you hired in to Fisher Body? John Couthen: Uh, went to high school [chuckling] basically. I hired in, uh, 3 months after graduation. You know, had the summer of fun, and [sigh] you know, what kids typically do after they, after they graduate, and I was between, you know, going to school and getting’ a job, and I really hadn’t really applied myself that well in high school, so I didn’t have great grades, but I, I could have gone to school, but the only thing that was keeping me back was money. So, I opted to go to work. Initially, I only planned on working for about a year. That was my plan. I was going to work a year and then save up enough money and go to school and I was going to be an accountant. Marilyn Coulter: [6:41] An accountant? John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: [6:42] So when you hired in, what was the hire-in process and what was – what did you think about it when you first walked inside Fisher Body? John Couthen: Well, um, the hiring process was you, you could either do one of th-, of two things: you could show up early in the morning and stand in a line that extended all the way down Verlinden and past the elementary school and was probably four abreast; you know, um, just hundreds and hundreds of people, which was the situation when I arrived at about 10 minutes to 8 in the morning to put my application in. And rather than stand in that line, I decided I would go play golf instead, and I did, and I went and I played golf, stopped by one of my friend’s house, kicked it with him, and basically just blew the whole day off. However, I had committed to my father that this was the plan I was gonna do; I was gonna go get a job at General Motors, and he was gonna make sure that I followed through on that. So I knew that I had to do somethin’ ‘cause he was gonna ask me when I got back home. So at about 10 minutes to 4 in the afternoon, I decided I’d drive back by the plant again, and the line was gone, there was nobody in line, and initially I was going to just drive by, and I said, “No, I’ll stop. Let me just, let me just check.” So I actually double-parked right in front of the plant here, uh, in the no-parking zone, and went down the stairs, front main entrance, and they were taking applications right there in the lobby, and the two people that were taking those applications were [Jerry Brooks 8:20] and [Tina McCullen 8:21]. Uh, Tina... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...uh, still works for GM. She’s a salaried personnel over at the Grand Rapids [inaudible 8:29] plant. But Jerry Brooks acts-, actually took my application, and I asked if I was too late, and he said no, and my first, uh, thoughts were, you know, when I filled the application out, he turned around and he timestamped it, and so, you know, the early bird gets the worm, that’s what you’re always taught, and so I was sure that I wasn’t gonna get a job because I came and applied so late, but at least I had myself covered with my dad, you know, that I could go back and tell him yes, I made an application that day. So that was day 1. The next day, Oldsmobile was hiring, also. And so I, I went over and filled out an application. They didn’t have nearly the line that Fisher Body had had. Um, and this was actually the second day of their application process, too, and so I filled out an application at Oldsmobile. Uh, I can’t remember exactly what day of the week it was, but that was early in the week, like a Monday or a Tuesday. I think the Monday was the Fisher Body thing that I filled out an application and Tuesday was Oldsmobile. And, um, I think it was Thursday or Fri-, it was Thursday, I got a call from Fisher Body and I got a post-, little, little 5x7 postcard from Oldsmobile, um, saying that, that – I believe it was Thursday because [inaudible 9:58] and I had to report the next day for an interview and physical, and I had to choose between Oldsmobile and Fisher Body. I had two job offers in my hand. And I chose Fisher Body, and, and I couldn’t tell you why other than the, the size and complexity, probably, of the Oldsmobile site was just a little overwhelming, and, you know, all you ever saw of Fisher Body, really, was the, the front on Verlinden and it didn’t seem quite so intimidating. So, I don’t know that’s the exact reason why I chose that one, but that’s where I went. And so, I reported when they asked me to. They interviewed me. I was still somewhat, uh, less-than-optimistic that they were going to hire me because everyone had told me you had to be 18 and I was only 17 at the time. But I had graduated from high school, and that’s all – uh, I let, I let, uh, Tina McCullen actually did my hiring, and I let her finish the whole interview, and then I, I asked her – because I figured that was my, my one saving grace that would get me out of it... Marilyn Coulter: [chuckling] John Couthen: ...was that I was only 17. So I asked her... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...that and she says, “Well, you graduated from high school?” and I said, “Sure.” Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: And I had a copy of my diploma in my wallet, and was all there was to it. You know, from there they sent me down the hall for a physical, and it was Monday, uh, after the weekend, I had to go to an orientation, and then I think I started a day or two after that. Marilyn Coulter: [11:35] Really? They had orientation? John Couthen: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [11:36] Do you remember your first department? John Couthen: My first apartment? Absolutely. Marilyn Coulter: And that... John Couthen: Um. Marilyn Coulter: ...was what? John Couthen: That was a townhouse over – you mean apartment... Marilyn Coulter: No. John Couthen: ...or department? Marilyn Coulter: Department that you... John Couthen: Oh, I thought... Marilyn Coulter: ...worked in. John Couthen: ...you were gettin’ off into my [chuckling]... Marilyn Coulter: [chuckling] John Couthen: ...shenanigans. Marilyn Coulter: [laughter] John Couthen: [laughter]. My first... Doug Rademacher: That comes after the... Marilyn Coulter: After, after. Doug Rademacher: ...after your first paycheck, yeah. John Couthen: Yeah, I... Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. John Couthen: ...I, I remember very, very well that it was actually 4 months after my first paycheck. Doug Rademacher: [laughter] John Couthen: But yeah, I worked in, in the door department, the... Marilyn Coulter: [12:05] In the Body Shop? John Couthen: In the Body Shop, and, um, I remember when they, uh – you know, they had all the new hires sittin’ where the general foremans’ offices were. At that time, the general foreman’s offices were near the front; actually, by the old Labor Relations Office is where all the general foremans all had a, had a office back there, and the area later became, um, Quality, I think just as the plant was getting ready to close... Marilyn Coulter: [12:32] Excuse me, John, but for people who won’t understand what that is, can you please say what a general foreman is? John Couthen: General foreman was a, like he, he’d have 6 or 7 foremans on a shift in the department reporting to him. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. John Couthen: [Inaudible 12:45]. Marilyn Coulter: Thank you. John Couthen: So, um, that’s where they’d pick you up at was back there, and they’d walk ya out, and they initially walked me out to what was the underbody area, or The Jungle, as we used to call it. We-, the reason they call it a jungle was because all the spot-weld guns were hanging from, you know, high up, and so you couldn’t see anywhere. It just looked like a real thick jungle of vines and things like, and it was just actually cables and wires holding the spot-weld guns. And actually, that was as little intimidating, walking through there, and eventually they worked-, they were dropping people off, you know, to different supervisors as they made their way through, and you’re half-scared, uh, half, uh, overwhelmed, you know... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...just interested and curious looking at things, trying to make sure you don’t trip and fall or get hurt. You know, the first time you see a spot-weld gun go off, the sparks fly right at you. You know, that’s a little unsettling, too. But finally made my way with the general foreman to the foreman that he was going to assign me to over in the door department, and that was [Jim Simms 13:58], and if anybody knows Jim Simms, he’s quite a character. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: That was my, my first boss, was Jim Simms. And went to work. Uh, lunchtime came, and I tried to go to the cafeteria. I got lost on my way to the cafeteria and I got lost on my way back. [chuckling] So. Marilyn Coulter: [14:22] Was [chuckling] the distance from the parking lot to your job and from your job to the cafeteria a long... John Couthen: Well, actually... Marilyn Coulter: ...distance? John Couthen: ...actually, um, the parking lot wasn’t such an issue because I got dropped off. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. John Couthen: However, when they gave us the instructions of where to report to in the orientation, they assumed that everyone was going to park in the parking lot because you were driving. Well, I didn’t, I didn’t have a car, so my mother actually had to drop me off, um, and so where she dropped me off at, though, was in the front of the plant. The instructions were from the back of the plant. So I didn’t know what to do, because if I went in the front, I was going to be lost because I didn’t have directions from the front of how to get there, and actually, you were right there. So I walked [chuckling] all the way around the plant... Marilyn Coulter: [quiet laughter] John Couthen: ...and came in the back. And proceeded to get lost anyway, because at that time, the paint shop was down on the first floor, and that’s what – you had to walk through the paint shop to get back to the front of the building. So, um, that’s how my first day started. Marilyn Coulter: [15:33] So your first day, knowing that initially you really were trying to get out of working there, what was going through your mind on your decision to... John Couthen: So... Marilyn Coulter: ...come in here? Like did you – how’d you feel? John Couthen: Uh, I was scared. I, I think you, ya know, no one’s really totally prepared for, ya know, that work pace, that work environment. You know, everybody that you’re working with is old enough, really, to be your parent. They’re, ya know, in their 40s and 30s. Ya know, to me, 17, a 30-year-old is ancient... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...ya know? So, um, and every now and then there a, um, person in the same age group that you recognize, ya know, so that was – but it was, it was, uh, it was not easy and it was no guarantee that I was going to make it, you know? Because I just, ya know, struggled with the job that they put me on. I was a door hanger, and a very demanding job. At the time, you know, I, I think I weighed about 175 pounds. The doors that we were liftin’ were in excess of 60 pounds; they were the big Toronado, and the last year that we build a Toronado... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...was 1978, and we were building the ’78 model Toronado, and I was hangin’ the doors on the passenger side. Marilyn Coulter: [16:51] Now, did you have any type of assist or were you just manually putting... John Couthen: Well you had... Marilyn Coulter: ...those doors up? John Couthen: ...an assist, but that was [chuckling] – you have a fixture that you put the door on into the fixture, but your, your door actually came on a monorail. Okay? Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: They didn’t in racks. They were on monorails, and the monorail was quite a ways away from the line. So you had to go get the door off the monorail and then carry it back to your car. That was the, the toughest part of the job. And they had a hoist, but, you know, it, it took a little finesse to learn how to use that. You know, I never did learn how to use the hoist. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Nobody used it because it was cumbersome and then it was tricky to work, and you couldn’t make any mistakes with it or the car would be gone by the time you got back with the door. Marilyn Coulter: [17:37] John, when you hired in, were you on the 1st shift or the 2nd shift? John Couthen: First shift, which compounded things, but actually it turned out to work in my favor, because from the – I’m the, I’m the 1st shift. I was obviously the lowest-seniority person there. And, um, that was a very difficult job. Back then, when they did shift preference, the highest, the highest-seniority person who was on the 2nd shift, they had to take out the lowest-senior person on the day shift, and the lowest-senior person then went to the opening or went to where the bump originated at. So I had a very high-senior person decide that they wanted to go days, and that’s who bumped me. Consequently, I went from the worst job in the Body Shop to the best job in the Body Shop. So while I was going through all this fretting, you know, for the first 3 weeks to a month, once I landed on the night shift, it was, it was a whole different world. Marilyn Coulter: [18:41] So when you went from the day sh-, the day shift to the night shift, what job were you doing on the night shift that made... John Couthen: Night shift I had the door striker job, which was just putting in the, putting in the striker that the door latched onto when you... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...close it, and then you just, you had a power wrench, and you’d put that in, it screwed right in, and then you’d close the door and look at how the door alignment was, and then you just had to adjust that little screw up and down, left or right to make it right. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [19:10] Um, you said that you started out on the day shift working with people who were old enough to be your parent. John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: Then you went to night shift. What was the climate like – or because you were working so hard did you even realize what the climate was like that you were working with on the day shift? John Couthen: On the day shift, it was – like I said, it was, it was, uh, very cliquish. You, you – right away, I mean, you didn’t fit with anybody. So it was kinda lonely, because other, other than your friends that had gotten hired in and that were workin’ in other areas, you didn’t dare venture off, ya know, go exploring or anything. I had that experience my first day and I stayed right in my work area, ya know, once I found my way in. But it was, uh – you felt kind of alone. I had a very nice relief man. I can’t remember his – I, I know his first name was Keith, but I can’t remember his last name. But he, uh, was very nice, and he always took the extra time to help me learn little tricks to do the job, and, ya know, he’s see me sittin’ by myself during breaks or whatnot and he’d come over and talk to me. Marilyn Coulter: So he kinda took you... John Couthen: Ya know, so... Marilyn Coulter: ...under his wing? John Couthen: Yeah, he, he – and actually, he had a, he had a son who had played football against me in high school, and so he recognized my name, and that’s kinda how we got to be friends. Marilyn Coulter: [20:40] Being a new hire, being young, and being isolated a little bit, did they ever play any pranks or jokes... John Couthen: No. Marilyn Coulter: ...on you as a new hire? John Couthen: No. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. John Couthen: They never did. They never did. They would, uh – they actually, uh, they, they gave me a nickname. They called [chuckling] – it was kind of, uh, eh, uh, an – one of those you’re the opposite of what they call you, and my nickname was Lightning... Marilyn Coulter: [chuckling] John Couthen: ...because they, they were – you know, I was slow. It take, it took a long time. You had to drive 6 – you know, once you got the door situated in the fixture, locked down, ready to go, you-, then you had to put 6 screws in it, then you had to unhook the fixture, push it all the way back, and then [gear 21:20] it, grab your hammer and start bangin’ on those hinges. So it took a long time. So obviously when you’re young, you know, you... [click] John Couthen: ...try and do a good job, but you only got so much space to work with, and so it was just takin’ me a little bit longer, and they nicknamed me Lightning. Marilyn Coulter: Lightning. John Couthen: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: So... John Couthen: But other than – I mean, that was, that was fine, but everybody was, was very helpful. I mean, even, even the person that you thought was just as grumpy as could be, they wouldn’t let you fail. I mean, they would, they would jump in and they’d help you, ya know, do whatever repair or fix whatever, you know, didn’t get done. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Doug... Doug Rademacher: Doug Rad-... Marilyn Coulter: Doug... Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. [22:03] John, you were 175 pounds, just outta high school, 17. You’re a strapping young lad. Played football. John Couthen: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: You said these doors weighed upwards of 60-plus pounds? And, uh, the nickname Lightning. You said it was, right off the bat, you still weren’t sure if you were going to make it. John Couthen: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: And yet you saw all these people around you. Can you just give someone that’s never seen the auto industry or an assembly line – how often did a vehicle come at you that you had to throw 60 pounds, uh, finesse, and put the bolts and swing a hammer? How much time did you have? John Couthen: Well... Doug Rademacher: Can you describe... John Couthen: ... time was really... Doug Rademacher: ...that feeling? John Couthen: It wasn’t so much the car, because the Toronados were on what was the B Line, which had Olds Eighty-Eights, Olds Ninety-Eights, and Toronados on it, and the Toronado mix on that line was every third car was a Toronado. So ya, ya had a... [coughing] John Couthen: ...3-car working envelope, but you had 2 other people working with you, and then you got every 3rd car. Well, the highest-seniority guys got the Ninety-Eights, the low-seniority guy got the Eighty-Eights – I mean the middle-seniority guy got the Eighty-Eights, and the, the new guy got the Toronados because the Toronado door was bigger. The, the Oldsmobile coupe doors – excuse me, sedan doors – so there were – ya know, it’s a 4-door, so a smaller door. Same way with the Eighty-Eight. They’re small doors. The Toronado was a coupe. Bigger door. New hire. [chuckling]. You get the hard job. It’s always been that way. Doug Rademacher: [23:49] So in – the line speed is what I guess I’m after. John Couthen: Oh. Doug Rademacher: How often did these cars go by... John Couthen: You were buildin’ better than 1 minute. I mean, so if the line was, was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 65 to 68 jobs an hour. Doug Rademacher: And so you were actually throwing a 60-pound door less than every 3 minutes... John Couthen: Less than every... Doug Rademacher: ...and having to... John Couthen: ...3 minutes. About every, every 2 minutes and 40 seconds, 2 minutes and 50 seconds. Doug Rademacher: [24:15] Did the people around you – you said they never let you fail. Even though they were quite a bit older than you, how long’d you work with them before you went to the, the night shift? John Couthen: About, uh, 3 weeks. 3, 3 or 4 weeks. Doug Rademacher: [24:31] In that short amount of time, did, uh, learn, uh, an appreciation or a respect? John Couthen: I think the respect took like 1 day, um, because it was, it was, uh, it was very sobering, and I, I didn’t have any expectations that it was gonna be easy when I went in there, but it was, it was hard work. And I had worked, um, as a student, as a high school student, I’d worked for the Department of Social Services in their warehouse. Um, you know, so liftin’ boxes and things like that, and shipping stuff. That was what I did. And some of those boxes would be heavy and it was hot in there, so it was hard work. Wasn’t easy. But that was nothing like building a car on an assembly line. That was, that was hard, and every night, um, that I left to go home, I wasn’t 100 percent sure in my mind that I’d be back the next day, because you just – it was just – all I could think of was just trying to make it home, and then the next morning, you wake up and you have to do it all over again, and it was just – it was a struggle just to drag yourself back in there. And many, many days, I wun’t even sure I was gonna be able to tie my shoes because my hands hurts so bad, ya know, and were so stuff. Uh, but once you got, you got goin’, and once that, once that horn – back then there was a horn that sounded in the Body Shop when they were gettin’ ready to start the line, and when the horn sounded, you just took off and you did the best you could. And you know, 15, 20 minutes into the, into the day, everything would kinda loosen up; ya know, your fingers would start workin’ again and whatnot. So, um, that was pretty much it. Doug Rademacher: [26:19] The only thing I’ll s-, early there, first day, second day, standin’ in line with these older gentlemen to punch in and out... John Couthen: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: ...did your thought drift to your father? John Couthen: No. Doug Rademacher: Never thought about him... John Couthen: No. Doug Rademacher: ... goin’ to work every day... John Couthen: I’ll tell ya what, I, I – the only – this is what I thought about him, because my mother dropped me off the first day and after that, I rode with my dad, and every time I h-, I thought I wanted to quick, I, I had to think about who I was gonna have to tell that I was quittin’, and he was number 1 on the list because I rode to work with him. And you know, I’d lay down at night and I’d tell myself, “Okay, tomorrow, you’re not goin’ in there, because you, you can’t do that. So you might as well just tell him when he comes to wake you up tomorrow mornin’, tell him you quit.” And so I’d say, “Yup, that’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna tell him I quit when I wake up tomorrow.” [chuckling] Well. [chuckling]. Doug Rademacher: [chuckling] John Couthen: I never did quite build up the nerve or the guts or whatever to, to confront him and tell him that I was gonna quit, so that’s what really saved me, you know, and my career with General Motors is-, was my father, and the fact that, um, that was, uh, a confrontation that I was not willing to have. Doug Rademacher: [27:36] There was a standard or a work ethic in that house... John Couthen: Absolutely. Doug Rademacher: ...and, uh, you knew what was – it was tough, but you, you knew if he was doin’ it and that it was expected of you. John Couthen: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [27:45] Now, you made it the three weeks, you went to the night shift... John Couthen: Yup. Doug Rademacher: ...and you said – can you describe the part you put on at that point, from a 60-pound door? What, what’s a striker? John Couthen: A door striker’s a – it looks like a long bolt with washers on the end of it, and the washers serve as like a shim, um, for spacing, and prolly 3 inches long, prolly weighed less that, ya know, maybe, maybe, uh, 8 ounces or so. It was just [inaudible 28:19]... Doug Rademacher: A half a pound. John Couthen: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: Now did your wage decreased when you had, uh, an easier job? John Couthen: No. Doug Rademacher: Did you ever wonder about the disparity and the workload in those jobs that... John Couthen: Nope, never, never thought about disparity. As long as I had a good job... Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 28:33]. John Couthen: ...I was, was all set. I figured I’d be here 30 years. [laughter]. Doug Rademacher: [28:38] Well, initially, you said you were gonna go 1 year... John Couthen: [chuckling] Yup. Doug Rademacher: ... and go to school. John Couthen: Yup. Doug Rademacher: Can ya tell me about that 1-year anniversary? John Couthen: Well, the f-, the, the first year, by – uh, typically, I think, by the time you get to the first-year anniversary, you know, you’ve gotten addicted to the money, and I still knew that at some point I was gonna go back to school, just didn’t know it was going to take me, you know, 22 years or 23 years to finally get off ma butt’n do it. But, um, lifestyle changes. When you don’t have anything and then you – all of a sudden ya do, and you start spending it, and you want more, you know? It’s, it’s the American way. And that pretty much settled my fate. You know, by the time I had been working a year, I had a brand new car, I had a-, an apartment, or a townhouse; ya know, all the toys and gadgets that a young single man would want, ya know? And I didn’t have a lot of money in the bank, but I had everything I wanted. And, uh, come every Friday night – or Thursday night, you know, I had a pocket full of money. So, I couldn’t see myself walking away from that. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [29:54] John, you initially started on day shift and then you went to the night shift, and being 17 – or 18 by now, maybe? John Couthen: Nope, not quite. Marilyn Coulter: Still 8-... John Couthen: I was still... Marilyn Coulter: Still 17? John Couthen: Yeah, I didn’t turn 17 for – it was two months after I hired in. Marilyn Coulter: [30:07] What was the differences that you noticed as far as people and the environment between day shift and night? John Couthen: Younger people, much younger people, and, uh, uh, the difference was the day shift was quiet and all you heard was the tools; night shift, it was music. Ya know, not too loud, ‘cause all, all we had back then was transistor radios. We didn’t have boom-boxes or anything. But they did allow, you know, you to have a, radio if you wanted to listen, and people would listen to the radio, and it was just a, uh, a much more relaxed environment. Marilyn Coulter: [30:45] Was it relaxed? Did they have as much supervision on the nights? John Couthen: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Was it more... John Couthen: Sure. Marilyn Coulter: ...relaxed because there were more young people on nights? John Couthen: Just because there were more young people on night. I felt more comfortable on nights. And maybe it was all perception and all paranoia on my part, but, um, I was m-... Marilyn Coulter: You found a... John Couthen: I was more... Marilyn Coulter: ...comfort zone. John Couthen: ...more comfortable. Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [31:03] Uh, finding that comfort zone in the plant, did you – were you able to, um, develop long-standing relationships with those people in the plant? Did you work in a – and in fact, did you even work in the Body Shop... John Couthen: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: ...for a long time? John Couthen: I, I had always worked in the Body Shop, uh, for the entire time that I worked in production. Yeah, I made some, some friends. Um, in terms of lasting relationships, a lot of the people that I, I worked with I still work with. Um, some of them have gone to different jobs and some of them are now union representatives. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Um, but, yeah, I, I’d say I made some, some friends there. Marilyn Coulter: [31:40] And they extended outside the plant? John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: [31:42] Did you find that your work family became part of a family for you? John Couthen: I don’t know that I’d say that. Um, there’s – no, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t go that far. Marilyn Coulter: [chuckling] John Couthen: It wasn’t that close, you know, back then. You’re... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Because you still had your job and only your job and, you know, I knew my, my repair guy, you know, who was a couple feet down from me. My job was the last one before the department repair station. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: So I knew the repair guy real good, he and I talked a lot, and he just happened to be going through a divorce and needed a good psychiatrist at the time, and I think I filled that role for him. But he and I got pretty close. Marilyn Coulter: [32:31] John, working in the body shop, how long did you work – I know you’ve had quite a interesting career that we’re going to get into here shortly. How long did you work t-, in the Body Shop? John Couthen: I worked in the Body Shop from 1977 until 1980. ’80, ‘81ish. Marilyn Coulter: [32:51] And what happened for you in ’80, ’81? John Couthen: Well, one th-, I had actually gone back to LCC and I had just finished an advanced statistics class, and the plant was starting to roll out statistical process control, and there was a 2-day workshop that they put everybody through in the Body Shop, or at least that was the, the initial goal, and when I went through the SPC class, um, I, I believe the person who was doing the facilitation in that class recognized that I, I knew a little bit about statistics. As it turned out, they were lookin’ for someone to partner up. This was one of the first joint things that, that we did, um, you know, starting in 1980, and we were looking for someone to partner up with the management person. They wanted someone from the UAW to te-, help teach these classes, and they selected me. And the selection process was nothing like it is now. I mean, it was just, you know, uh, the person who I was going to work for wanted me to do it, and they went to the union chairman and he said, “Yeah, go ahead.” That was it. And so that’s what I did from, uh, from 1980 until midway through 1981. Marilyn Coulter: So prior to that, were you involved with the UAW at all? John Couthen: Mm-mm. Never had made a committee call, never – didn’t know what a grievance was, didn’t know what [78 34:25] was, I never... Marilyn Coulter: Just paid your dues and... John Couthen: Yeah, just, you know, I never, never done anything, really. Marilyn Coulter: [34:31] And then you became a statistical process control... John Couthen: Uh... Marilyn Coulter: ...instructor. John Couthen: ...facilitator... Marilyn Coulter: Facilitator. John Couthen: ...for, for, like I said, about a year and a half. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [34:41] Once you became a facilitator, did you get active with the union at all or were you primarily doing your job? John Couthen: Just doin’ my job. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [34:49] How long did you do s-, the stats, and then – well, before I go there, how did the management personnel like having an hourly person... John Couthen: Oh [inaudible 34:59]... Marilyn Coulter: ...helping them teach? John Couthen: I can honestly say that they treated me the same as the – as everybody else. Marilyn Coulter: [35:04] So that was as true partnership, then. John Couthen: Yeah. Yeah, there was, uh, there was actually four of us that were doin’ it, um, and, yeah, it was, it was good. But, you know, the roles were limited, too. You, you, you had what you were supposed to do and the management person, they had what they were supposed to do. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Yeah, it was, it was pretty cut-and-dry. Marilyn Coulter: [35:25] D-, Ha-, did you have much of a say in the outline... John Couthen: No. Marilyn Coulter: ...that you did? You just did your job. John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: [35:31] How long and – [let me put 35:35] – how did your coworkers like having you do s-, a job like that? John Couthen: My coworkers? As in... Marilyn Coulter: The people that you... John Couthen: ...the people that I... Marilyn Coulter: ...left from... John Couthen: ...used to work with... Marilyn Coulter: Yes. Exactly. John Couthen: ...on the floor? Well, um, when I left from the floor... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: ...um, I didn’t really know, you know, that it was going to turn into a permanent job. It was really like a 30-day, ya know, assignment that just kept gettin’ extended, and then it was 6 months, and then it was, ya know, another 30 days, or – and so it just kept goin’ on and on. So my expectation was that I was, I was goin’ back to that job. I just, I, I never made it, because right at the end of the SPC stuff – actually, while we were halfway through it, um, 1981, um, QWL started to get rolled out. Marilyn Coulter: [36:34] And what is that, please? John Couthen: Quality of Work Life, that process. And so, I went from SPC directly into going QWL as a union person. Marilyn Coulter: [36:46] And what was your responsibilities with the Quality of Work Life? John Couthen: Facilitating the workshops, um, and introducing people to the concept of improving Quality Work Life and employee participation groups. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: Um, that was a 40-hour workshop. So, it was, uh – no no no, excuse me. That was a 2-day workshop, as well. The 40-hour stuff was [off site 37:07]. Marilyn Coulter: [37:08] So General Motors had you trained... [throat clearing] Marilyn Coulter: ...to do that and then... John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: ...you began to roll that process out. John Couthen: Right. Marilyn Coulter: [37:14] So, you d-, w-, went far beyond doing just statistical processes. John Couthen: Yes. Yeah, just one – just went from one to the other. Marilyn Coulter: [37:22] And then – and how long did you do that? John Couthen: Well, as an hourly person, I think I did it for a year and a half. Marilyn Coulter: For a year and a half? John Couthen: From ’81 until, uh, early ’83, and ’83, there was a job that came open in the quality – what was called Quality Control there... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...as a statistician analyst, and it was a salaried position, and I interviewed for that, and they offered me the job, and I took it. And, and it paid better, by the way. Marilyn Coulter: [38:01] So you were an hourly person in one ar-, in one department, and you were training, and then you went to management, asked, while you w- interviewed for this next job. John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: Wow. [38:16] Was that a difficult process being an hourly employee? John Couthen: I, I don’t understand the question. MC: [38:23] Well, was it a difficult process – was it an easy job for you to segue into... John Couthen: Yes. Marilyn Coulter: ...because you had already worked w-, in the process with... John Couthen: Well, the... Marilyn Coulter: ...some of the managers? John Couthen: ...the – what made it easy was I didn’t – as an analyst, you know, it’s, it’s a 5th level job, so you’re not supervising anybody. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: And it was really kinda seamless for me, because all I was doin’ the-, we had a function back then that was called critical audit, and basically what it tracked was the number of defects per car, and that was my responsibility was to track that, keep that data, and then to share that or present that data, uh, on a weekly basis to the plant staff in the morning staff meeting. [click] Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. [39:07] John, before we move on into this move into, uh, the management side of a-, of the business, you said that you were recognized for your abilities and that they wanted someone from the UAW side to work with the, uh, the corporate side, and you were, uh, referred by your supervisor? Or somebody had, uh, recognized you? John Couthen: No, somebody recog-, the guy that was – that I actually ended up workin’ with, uh, when he taught the class, um, recognizing that I, I had some abilities. Doug Rademacher: [39:40] And I was just curious, was there ever a time where your UAW, since it was a position they wanted to, more or less, marriage together, uh, in a working relationship, did – was there a president or a shop chairman, someone that, that, uh, had to approve this move or was it only... John Couthen: [Like 40:02]... Doug Rademacher: ...management’s decision? John Couthen: No, it was the union’s decision. Doug Rademacher: [40:05] And do you remember who that was? John Couthen: Yeah, it was, uh, [Don Brown 40:07] was the... Doug Rademacher: Don Brown. John Couthen: ...[chairman 40:08] at the time. Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [40:14] John, when you – we talked about work environments and work groups, and, um, being Q-, a Quality of Work representative and a statistician, you went into a different type of element as far as that. What was that like, insofar as having coworkers and things like that? John Couthen: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: How did they treat you? John Couthen: Um, fine. Um, just another group of folks. But overall, treatment was no different than when I was [hourly 40:41]. Marilyn Coulter: [40:41] When you were a Quality of Work Life representative and taking that new pro-, and actually that’s one of the beginning of the new processes that the workers were going to be taking up, was that something that you think actually did help the quality of the work inside there as far as getting, uh, hourly representative and active in the business? John Couthen: It was a start. I mean, it took, it took many, many years, and I, I think we’re still evolving to that, but that’s where we started changing the workplace, and I, I think a lot of the things that we do today are a direct result... Marilyn Coulter: Of what you did then. John Couthen: ...of what we did in ’83. So I, I, I’m really proud of being part of that, because it wasn’t easy. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: There was, uh – and skepticism doesn’t even begin to, ya know, comprehend what it was like, ya know, trying to pitch this idea of a more democratic workplace. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [41:38] And, and it’s kind of down the road a little bit, but however, since you were a worker and you talked about the work life, one a the things they talked about in Lansing was we were always called the Capitol of Equality. Do you think one of those things had anything to do with the programs such as that? John Couthen: Uh, no, because, uh, we – Quality of Work Life was, was a corporate-wide initiative. Um, we weren’t, we weren’t really the, the trailblazers on that. There were a lot of plants that were doin’ things a couple years before us. [click] Marilyn Coulter: [42:11] What do you think made Fisher Body special, as far as the workforce? John Couthen: Uh, boy. I don’t, I don’t know quite how to describe that. Um, I’m not so sure that at that time I really recognized that it was unique, because it was – uh, it only seems unique if you’ve got somethin’ to compare it against, and I didn’t. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Um, so it seemed like it was just normal. MC: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Like that’s the way it should be. Marilyn Coulter: That’s the way we do things. Doug Rademacher. Doug Rademacher: [42:46] John, as we talk about that, the Capitol of Quality, the, uh, Lansing being, uh, uh, recognized for it’s quality of achievements. What about, you said earlier on about the old guys, they wouldn’t let you fail? Is that somethin’ that’s connected to that Capitol of Quality? John Couthen: I think there was or always has been some – a high level of pride that other people have taken in their work and in this workforce, and if one person wasn’t functioning correctly, I, I think they took that as a reflection of the whole group, and ya know, that was – we weren’t a formal team, obviously, but we were a team. Ya know, you had 6 door hangers, and, ya know, we worked together. I wasn’t able, ever, to get to the level where – at that time, when I first hired-in – to where I was able to help anybody else, but I know that eventually I, I would have gotten there. I mean, the next time a new person came in, it woulda been expected. You know what I mean? You help the new people out, because it was a difficult job to learn. And in fact, just goin’ back, I, I didn’t stay on that door striker job forever, because eventually I, I tried to get back to days again, which I did, and when I got back to days, uh, again, I was put back on the door hanging job. So I actually went back to door hanging, uh, by choice, but that was maybe ’79. You know, so I had been there about 2 years, and I had an opportunity to bump out the lowest person, and that was a person on days that had less time than me. So at some point, you know, your life changes and it’s more important to be on days than it is to have an easy job. I knew I was going back to a harder job, but it was more important for me to be on days... Marilyn Coulter: Yeah, on days. John Couthen: ... than have an easy job. Marilyn Coulter: [45:04] But when you went back to that door job, did you get the coupe doors again? John Couthen: Actually, we had stopped building the Toronado, and they, they had actually built a new body shop out in Building 16 where the, uh, the [M 45:19] Body Shop went to when the plant got ready to, to shut down, that body shop... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: ...that was on the, on that side. That was all new back in ’79. Marilyn Coulter: [45:29] John, you’ve spoken about M Body Shops and C Body Shops. Can you let people know a little bit what’s the difference between the two and the havin’ to do different... John Couthen: It’s a... Marilyn Coulter: ...things? John Couthen: ...different, different system altogether. There’s two systems that was kinda unique with Lansing car assembly, it was a dual-system plant. They had two assembly lines, and you had the A System, which ran the Cutlass models, and then the B System was the bigger cars; Eighty Eights, Ninety-Eights, and Toronados, which later became – from A and B, it went to M and C. So, just a different change in letters. I don’t know... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: ...why, but they did it. Marilyn Coulter: [46:12] And what was – there was something that was unique about the way Fisher Body did vehicles. You want to explain a little bit about that? John Couthen: Just building the body, the shell, all the chasse and engine. Uh, uh, assembly took place across town at Oldsmobile. So the bodies were shipped by body haulers across. All we, all we would have done was the, uh, the shell on the body. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Doug Rademacher. Doug Rademacher: [46:39] Just to clarify that, so the, the body was unfinished and it was shipped to another location to be... John Couthen: Well, the... Doug Rademacher: ...finished? John Couthen: ...the body was finished. Know what I mean? It was painted, uh... [shuffling papers] John Couthen: ...had glass in it, uh, interior was complete. What it didn’t have was a frame, chassis, brakes, tires, engine, and front fenders, and a hood. Doug Rademacher: Okay. [47:02] Um, John, would you say – what made a good or a bad supervisor, in your eyes? John Couthen: Well, I’ve worked for both. Um, a good supervisor was someone who was always approachable, um, had, um, had [inaudible 47:22] for you as a, an employee and the work that you were doin’, and if, if things weren’t right, which quite often they weren’t, he was there to try and help you or get you the help that you needed. Uh, bad supervisor’s just the complete opposite. Ya know? Who were mainly attendance takers, and that’s, that’s the extent that they wanted to get involved with you. It was, you know, “I’m here to make sure you do your job,” not “I’m here to help you do your job.” Doug Rademacher: [47:55] Now, when you transitioned into a management position, do you feel coming from the assembly line was a asset to you to know, to recognize a worker’s needs or his... John Couthen: Not, not... Doug Rademacher: ...difficulties? John Couthen: ...not early on, because like I said, I’ve-, I went to, to quality, and I didn’t supervise anybody for maybe the first 2 years that I was on salary. Um, it was probably, um – it was many, many years, um, before I really gained a full appreciation of it and, and had to reflect back to what it was like. I spent 6 months in 19-, 1995 I ran a department as a supervisor, um, just for 6 months, and I knew goin’ in I was only gonna be there for 6 months. So, um, that kinda puts you in a different frame of mind. But I also knew what it was like to work on the line, and, uh, you know, I tried to, tried to respond accordingly. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [49:04] John, so you went from the status – from the Quality Department, and how long did you stay in Quality? Until you went to the line? John Couthen: No. Um, I went to-, from, I went from Quality back to QWL... Marilyn Coulter: Okay. John Couthen: ...as a salaried person. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. John Couthen: So I was an hourly QWL person, then I went to Quality as-, on salary, and then eventually back to QWL as a salaried QWL person. Marilyn Coulter: [49:30] And how long did, did you do the salary QWL? John Couthen: I did salaried QWL until 1990. So that would have been, uh, 7 years. Marilyn Coulter: [49:41] What happened for you in 1990? John Couthen: In 1990, um, I was asked to interview for a job as a labor rep, um, in the, in the early spring of 1990, and I didn’t know what a labor rep was, but the person who was asking, uh, I [inaudible 50:00], and so, because he asked, I, I sought it out, you know, and actually applied for it – or self-nominated for it, and, uh, got an interview, and I didn’t get the job. Uh, someone else got the job who became one of my closest workin’ buddies. Um, but I did get told why I didn’t get the job, and was also committed to the next opening that occurred in that department, um, was mine if I wanted it, and they on-, the reason why they took the other guy, uh, was because he had so much more experience. He was, he was a general foreman. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: And he wanted to, to go into labor relations. Marilyn Coulter: [50:50] So a labor rep was in labor relations. John Couthen: Yes. Marilyn Coulter: [50:54] And so, you got the next appointment. John Couthen: The next – and then, ironically, someone moved on from labor to another – actually left the company, and so another opening came up, and I was given the job. Marilyn Coulter: [51:09] And how long – and now that’s where you are currently? John Couthen: Yup. I’ve been in labor relations for 16 years. Um, when I first went into labor, I was the night shift labor rep in the body plant, which was a, uh – that was an eye-opening experience. Marilyn Coulter: [51:29] What was eye opening about it? John Couthen: Um, I, I didn’t know anything about the, the contracts, um, didn’t know, uh, anything about agreement, I didn’t know anything about discipline, I didn’t know anything about negotiations, or anything. I had no idea what labor relations even did. So, uh, it was, it was as overwhelming if not more than... Marilyn Coulter: As the [inaudible 51:58]. John Couthen: ...than the, the first – yeah, the first day I stepped into the plant. And it went on for a long time. Labor is really somethin’ that you have to experience before you ever get comfortable with it. Um, and it took me probably a year and a half to two years to even feel like I even knew what I was doin’. Marilyn Coulter: [52:16] You talked about being a part of negotiations. What was it like to be on the management side and the first time you had to negotiate a contract for your plant? John Couthen: Well, my first experience with negotiations was all observation. It was – I, I wasn’t, I wasn’t, uh, in a position to settle anything, uh, add any input, because I didn’t know anything. They were in negotiations, actually, when I arrived into labor. They were – 1990 was a, a, a contract year, and all I did was watch. I, I didn’t even know how to take good notes because I didn’t know what part of the conversation was even relevant. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: And, uh, after about a year and a half of feeling totally inadequate, you know, every, every day, just wrestling with not knowing what to do, ya know, gradually, you just kinda – you, ya grab on to what’s going and what needs to be done and what’s expected of you. Marilyn Coulter: [53:15] There were no labor classes that they sent you to? [rumble] John Couthen: [Sure 53:18]. Yeah, there was lotsa classes. Marilyn Coulter: But practical applications... John Couthen: Practical application, it just – it didn’t – when, when, you know, you got to class and they give you a manual and the answer would be in the manual. When you’re on the floor, if someone asks you a question, they expect an answer w-, during the conversation, not for you to have to go back to your office and look it up in the book. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. You have to be able to, as they say, dance on your feet. John Couthen: Right. Marilyn Coulter: Um, Doug Rademacher. Doug Rademacher: [53:48] John, it’s never been discussed in the interview, but you’re a black man, and I’m curious... Marilyn Coulter: [chuckling] John Couthen: I am? Marilyn Coulter: [quiet laughter] Doug Rademacher: ...was your, um, being of, of another – of a, uh, diverse group of people and bein’ selected, did that have anything to do with it? Were you one of many? Were you the only, uh, black man? Was there any women? And what was that like, breaking ground in that arena? John Couthen: In labor? Um, there, there were other African-American [men 54:26] in labor. In fact, the guy that left the company that I replaced was African-American. Um, there were women. Uh, I can’t remember [Candace’s 54:38] last name. Uh, and then, uh, [Mary Holmes 54:41]. So we had women in the, in the labor group at the time. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Marilyn Coulter: [54:52] Being a part of the labor [inaudible 54:54] and being the ones that help make the decisions, and, as you say, making the ultimate disciplines, actually, because when disciplines reached your office, that was usually a discharge-type of a discipline or? John Couthen: Uh, not necessarily, but it, it was somethin’ that was serious, usually, and could have resulted in discharge. Sometimes the... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...discipline would, would reach, um, our office and we – the department may want a discharge and we would not support discharge because the, the evidence or the, the... [crumpling paper] John Couthen: ...proof of, uh, of misconduct is, is our burden. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: And we had to make a call on whether or not we felt that we could substantiate the burden of proof. Marilyn Coulter: [55:40] What was one of the biggest things that surprised you about going into labor relations, outside of it being overwhelming and all the things you had to know? John Couthen: I, I don’t know that I’d characterize anything as a surprise. Um, it was an eye-opener because you really, you really had no, no knowledge when you were out there on the floor... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...of, of exactly what was going on, you know, between the union and management... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: ...and how big an impact that had on things that happened out on the floor. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. [56:17] And now, you initially started out as a labor rep right inside the Fisher Body plant... John Couthen: [Oh yeah 56:23]. Marilyn Coulter: ...and, um, it later went on to you’re the site-wide person, correct? John Couthen: Mm-hm. Yes. Marilyn Coulter: And so, you are now the head of labor relations. Is that correct? John Couthen: Well, that’s what some people say. Marilyn Coulter: What they say. John Couthen: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Um, and, um, being the head of labor relations – well, let me digress a little bit before I get into that question. [56:48] Because you’re at Fisher Body and Fisher Body went through a lot of name changes, what’d you think about all those different name changes and what did you call Fisher Body? John Couthen: I, I called the body plant, and, uh, you know, that’s – I think that’s prolly the most common term that, that people refer to it as. There’s some people that call it Fisher Body, there are some people that still call it BOC. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Um, to me, it’s always been the body plant. Marilyn Coulter: It’s always been the body plant. John Couthen: And, and I think that came about – I shouldn’t say it’s always been the body plant, because it was after I had moved, uh, from the body plant to the [chasse 57:30] operation, I actually moved to [inaudible 57:31]... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...and then it was the body plant I think more than anything else. It was – when, when you’re there and that’s the only plant that you’ve worked in, it... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...it was just the plant. Okay? It wasn’t – no other nomenclature really was... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...you know, necessary. I mean, it was just the plant. It wasn’t Fisher Body, it wasn’t BOC, but it was – well, it was once I moved away and had responsibilities in another plant, then to reference back to the plant, the plant was no longer the plant, it – you had to call it by what it was. Marilyn Coulter: [58:09] You said that you worked at the [fat plant 58:11] also [inaudible 58:13]... John Couthen: Right, in the office at the fat plant. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah, [to have 58:14] – was there anything that you noticed different – because you were site-wide, was there anything that you noticed different between the Fisher Body plant and the other plants within the Lansing area? John Couthen: No. Because the, the same pride and heritage existed because the, the – those other plants, the fat plant, the engine plant, the chasse plant, all a that stuff was old... [paper rustling] John Couthen: ... [inaudible 58:39]. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: And the same pride that I think, uh, that you found in Fisher Body people, there were as many people who were, you know, loyal to the Oldsmobile name plate, you know, and identity as there were Fisher Body... Marilyn Coulter: [58:58] So that Lansing site, loyalty is what helped make it the Capitol of Quality. John Couthen: Yeah. Absolutely. People were very proud to, to work for Oldsmobile, people were very proud to work for Fisher Body. Marilyn Coulter: [59:08] You’ve had quite a, um, outstanding life, um, working here in Lansing. You started out as a 17-year-old who went and took that extra time playing golf all day and said, “Well, I don’t wanna deal with dad”... John Couthen: Don’t let my daddy know that, either, ‘cause he’s still... Marilyn Coulter: [laughter] John Couthen: ...[inaudible 59:29]. Doug Rademacher: He doesn’t get the... John Couthen: [chuckling] Marilyn Coulter: [chuckling] So, and, you know, you took those last few minutes before time to close to go in and put your – to now being the head of labor relations here at this site. What do you think about that? What does that make you think about? John Couthen: Well, I consider myself extremely blessed. Okay? And there’s, and, um, there’s not a day that goes by that I take it for granted. Marilyn Coulter: [59:54] Is there anything, given the fact that you are one a the ones in power, um, are you – was there anything that you saw, experienced that took place when you first came in under your time on the line or some things that you said, “Well, I want to try to do somethin’ to change that,” and now that you’re at that table to make those negotiations, you’ve tried to make those changes happen? John Couthen: You know, in – uh, uh, I can’t point the one moment or one inspirational, uh, deed or episode. Uh, I think we’ve kinda all evolved together, you know, as to what’s important and what needs to be changed and how we should be treating each other and... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...how we should do business. I, I’ve seen some, some change just since we’ve closed the body plant and moved everybody out here to Delta Township. Uh, you’re a product of your environment. Everybody is. And we do – you know, we went through the phase of, you know, screamin’, yellin’. I can scream with the best of’m. I can pound the table with the best of’m. You know, I knew every cuss word in the book, too, and knew the right moments to, to use’m for, for emphasis, but even, even within the last 4 or 5 years, I’ve noticed a shift, not only mine – myself, you know, but the people that I deal with with, the shop committee, um, that we have, uh, here in Delta Township, the shop committee that’s at, uh, 652, um, our relationship just keeps evolving to where... [telephone ring] ...everyone is now more business-oriented. [telephone ring] John Couthen: This is supposed to be off. [telephone ring] John Couthen: Sorry about that. I had to turn – I turned it off. Doug Rademacher: [61:54] So everyone was more business oriented. John Couthen: Everybody was more business oriented, uh, to the extent that, uh, you know, it used to be the union had their ideas about things and how they felt like they should go... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...and, uh, now it’s we all have a common understanding of how the business works. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Okay? And, uh, it, it really makes things a lot easier, because I, I really feel like the union is more tuned in to the dollars and cents sign of the business. It used to be, you know, 10, 10, 12 years ago, the union wanted what they wanted and they wanted it at all costs. Now, they, they, they, take a more balanced approach. Their membership is still their first priority... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...you know, no mistake, no question about that. They’re gonna protect their membership. Job security is number 1 and job satisfaction, number 2. Okay? And they, they hold that very near and dear. But it’s easier now to have good, healthy dialogue on topics, you know, anything... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...that we need to talk about for business, because they understand the business. They understand our competition. They understand, uh, what the needs of the business are, and they understand, you know, always driven by the needs of their people that they represent, and I, I think they do a very good job, because it – in order to really adequately represent people, I think you gotta know what the business conditions are. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: You know, if they’re favorable or unfavorable, and I, I think the unions here in Lansing, uh, 652 and 602, do a great job at the – especially in the, in the last, like I said, 4 or 5 years. Marilyn Coulter: [63:41] John, because, um, you grew up in this community, can you tell me, um, have you participated in community activities outside of the plant that General Motors had things to do and has this extended into the community for you? John Couthen: Well, not necessarily from a GM standpoint. You know, um, I – that – I’d say that I’m probably just a typical, uh, person. Uh, you know, when my kids were little league and, you know, that age and whatnot, I coached... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: ...and helped out and organized and did stuff like that. Uh, my church, you know, and, you know, get involved with, with things like that. But I, I don’t think to the extent of, uh, some people in the community like participating on commissions or committees and things like that, I haven’t done any of that. Marilyn Coulter: [64:40] Then, uh, as far as benefits and things like that, you said that you’re just now getting ready to finish your bachelor’s. John Couthen: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: Is that something – the tuition assistance, that something that managers get a part of and do you find... John Couthen: Oh yeah. Marilyn Coulter: ...more – and because you’re doing that now, do you find that, um, now we’re getting more people involved, that we have a more skilled workforce in terms of education? John Couthen: Yes. I think, um, it was rare to find people on the assembly line in 1977 that had a lot of college, let alone degrees. I think it’s, it’s pretty commonplace now. You’d be hard-pressed to go to any one department... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...uh, in the plant now and find no one that has a degree. Uh, we’ve got people that are working in production that have advanced degrees. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Ya know? And I just think that makes us better. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. John Couthen: It makes us more business-savvy and just, you know, um, for myself, um, I’m in the job that I, I want to be in. Uh, I don’t know that it’s healthy for me to stay in the job forever, but I will if they let me. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: Um, because I like what I’m doin’ and I really feel like I, I make a difference. Uh, the pursuit of my bachelor’s degree is just somethin’ that I committed to myself... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...that I would do. It was one thing that was brought into question, actually, when I got this job, the fact that I didn’t have it. Uh, but the folks who were makin’ the decision were gracious enough to, ya know, not hold that against me, and at the ti-, I had, in fact, uh, just recently, like two months before, uh, I interviewed for this current position, um, and reenrolled, and, uh, was, was actually taking classes [inaudible 66:37]... [coughing] John Couthen: ...so. And you know, and I had never really stopped goin’ to school. I just kinda sporadically took a class here and there, uh, but never really entered a degree program... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...and, you know, trying to really knock it out, so. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 66:53]? Doug Rademacher: We have transitioned now, the body plant, you’ve worked in different facilities. [coughing] Doug Rademacher: [67:01] Can you just briefly think of, uh, one a your best moments at Fisher Body? John Couthen: Best moments at Fisher Body. I’m not struggling so much with finding a good moment. It’s... Marilyn Coulter: Which one? John Couthen: ...yeah, which one. ‘Cause there were, there were a lot of good things that, uh, that happened at Fisher Body. I think probably the thing that I felt, felt the best about was the last, uh, uh, JD Power Award that we were, we were given in the body plant, because it was clear when we got that award, everyone knew – not necessarily had come to grips with, but everyone knew that we were gonna close that plant, and yet still, uh, people were proud of what we did and it was being recognized, and it – I just remember standing there that day and thinking about, you know, that, that’s a pretty amazing accomplishment, that here’s a plant that we’re not investing any money into, it just – it’s all band-aided together, and we’re still able to do somethin’ like this. So, I’d say that was probably a better moment. Yeah. I wouldn’t say it was the absolute best, but I remember that moment well. Doug Rademacher: Now, if you would, describe, since you’re part of the company, what is General Motors thinking in building a brand new facility as the Delta plant, in Michigan? What would drive them to come up and pay those heating bills? Uh... John Couthen: Well, it’s, it’s, uh – you know, once you set the ball in motion and you’ve committed yourself to build a, build a plant, um, you could – we coulda built these plants anywhere in the world, let alone the United States. We coulda built’m anywhere in the world, but my personal thoughts are that it was important to – for the corporation to demonstrate to the UAW that General Motors had belief or faith in the UAW, that we could be as competitive right here, right in the heart of the UAW, right in – here in the state of Michigan. It’s no accident that these two plants were built in this town. I think they wanted’m built in Michigan, and Lansing was the best place, and there are several things that played into our favor. Number 1 was the age of the plants that we have and the fact that we were able to do so much with so little, uh, in terms of technology and, and, uh, a state-of-the-art facility. But it, it was important, I think, to, to, to build these plants in, in Lansing, or in Michigan, in the heartland of the UAW; you know, right on the home front rather than try and hide these plants, ya know, in a southern, non-union state, uh, or try and get away from, ya know, anything or do it as a joint venture or, ya know, put it in, ya know, another country, and, uh, that’s why it’s, it’s critically important that we are successful... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. John Couthen: ...here, as well as at Lansing-Grand River. Marilyn Coulter: [70:51] John, we’ve touched on a lot of things about your life. Is there anything that we haven’t touched on that you’d like us to talk about? John Couthen: When you asked me just a moment ago what, what was the, the best moment, uh, I can tell you without any degree of difficulty what the worst moment was, and it’s something that I strive and will continue to strive to avoid, um, at all costs. Um, in 1992, there was a strike that, in my opinion, and I think if you, you go back and ask anyone that was involved in that situation, “Was it necessary?” and the answer is “Absolutely not.” It was the most gut-wrenching, uh, emotionally challenging that, that I’ve gone through in my work career, um, and the fact that the workforce was only out for like 2 days, it, it wasn’t that; it was you never get over watching people that you’ve known, in some cases, for nearly all a your life walk out with picket signs, and that’s somethin’ that, that I don’t ever want to happen again, and I’ll do everything that I can do to, to keep that from every happening again, ‘cause it, it’s not a pretty experience. Doug Rademacher: Well, John, as a, uh, vice president and leader of this local union and, uh, I worked with the plant for 27½ years now, and now on to the new Delta, uh, I’ve grown up also with you, and, uh, seen you grow, and it’s been, uh, very rewarding, and it’s a pleasure to work with you, and I, uh, I have appreciated that. John Couthen: Thank you, Doug. Marilyn Coulter: I, um, want to say thank you, also, and I hope all the young people who are not sure what they want to do never know that a decision you make at 17 can make a big difference... John Couthen: Absolutely. Marilyn Coulter: ...on your life, and it can be a good thing. John Couthen: Yes. Marilyn Coulter: And thank you for your time. John Couthen: Thank you, Marilyn. Doug Rademacher: Thank you for [time 72:48]. /rt