Allen Van De Vusse, Louise and John Dean talk about their time at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Cheryl McQuaid: This is the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. I’m Cheryl McQuaid. Also on the team is... Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Cheryl McQuaid: We are going to interview three retirees from Fisher Body, Allen Van De Vusse, Louise Dean, and John Dean. Today is June 14, Wednesday, and it’s approximately 9:15 a.m. We’re at the 602 Union Hall back conference room. Allen, can we start with you? [0:32] Would you state and spell your last name for us? Allen Van De Vusse: Allen Van De Vusse, it’s V as in Victor, a-n D-e V-u-s-s-e. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:45] And what is your address Allen? Allen Van De Vusse: 5012 Applewood Drive, Lansing, Michigan. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:52] What did your parents do for a living? Allen Van De Vusse: My dad was a chef and my mother was a, just a housewife. She died when I was 7 years old, so I was growing up with my grandparents. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:07] And where were you raised? Allen Van De Vusse: St. Johns, Michigan. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:11] Could you give us a little bit about your educational background? Allen Van De Vusse: Well, I graduated from high school in 1949 and I went into the navy reserve. Then, I hired into American State Bank in 1950, and I left there to go to Fisher Body in 1953. And after that, I took a cor-, correspondence course in accounting and I also took some math courses at MSU and later at LCC. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:54] Do you remember, uh, when you hired in to Fisher Body? What’s your seniority date? Allen Van De Vusse: April 13, 1953. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:01] And where did you hire, what department did you hire in to? Allen Van De Vusse: The payroll department, as a payroll auditor. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay, now we’re going to switch to Louise Dean and I’d like the same information from you, Louise. [2:13] What is – could you state your name and spell your last name, please? Louise Dean: My name is Louise Dean, D-e-a-n. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:22] And what is your address? Louise Dean: 9336 Riverside Drive, Grand Ledge, Michigan. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:31] And do you have children? Are you married? Louise Dean: I’m married with no children. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:37] And where were you born and raised? Louise Dean: Flint, Michigan and raised in Lansing, Michigan. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:41] What did your parents do? Louise Dean: My father worked for the Flint Journal and he passed away when I was 8 weeks old. My mother returned to Lansing where I was raised here and she worked for an insurance company. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:55] Um, could you give us a little bit about your educational level? Louise Dean: I went to school in Lansing, graduated from Sexton High School and went one year at Western Michigan and then hired in to GM in 1963. Cheryl McQuaid: [3:11] What did you do before hiring in to Fisher Body? Did you come in right out of school? Louise Dean: No. I went to California for three years, then I came back to Michigan and went to Warren, Michigan. I hired in at the Tech Center, the Ternstedt Division of GM. I then transferred to Lansing Fisher Body because John and I were getting married in 1966. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. And John, Louise’s husband, is here with us. [3:39] You don’t need to – address and name spelling is all the same, correct? John Dean: That’s correct. We’re not divorced. [chuckle] Cheryl McQuaid: [3:47] Would you state your name and tell us a little bit about where you were born and raised? John Dean: My name is John Dean. I was born and raised in Lansing. I went to high school at Everett High School here in Lansing, graduated from there and went to work at Oldsmobile in 1955. I worked there a year and from there while I was in high school, as a matter of fact, I was working as an apprentice in the heating business so I went from there to the heating business for a while and I worked at REO for a while, back in to the heating business and eventually I got to be a journeyman tinsmith and I hired in to Fisher Body. I strictly went there because I wanted the benefits. We didn’t have any benefits in the construction industry at that time and I went there to get the benefits. And I – they wanted me to hire in on skilled trades and I said no, I had enough of that and I didn’t want to work seven days a week and all that. So that was 1971 when I hired in, I think it was May 24 or something like that. It was right close to my birthday, I remember that. And, uh, when I went to work there I started going back to school again, so I picked up an associate’s degree at LCC then. And then through the course of time, I picked up enough credits to have another year of education, so about three years of college is what it amounted to. But the benefits that we had, of course, we don’t have as much anymore [chuckle] but times have changed. But I think that all the jobs I had in there, I, I started out working in the paint shop. Matter of fact, Al Van De Vusse here was one of the first guys I ever worked for [coughing] and it was in the old Building 9 area and I worked down there for a few months, then I went into plant security as a patrolman, and then I went through a pre-supervisory training program and went into plant security as a sergeant, then back out as a body shop supervisor, and I went back in to plant security for a while again, and then I went back as, as a night shift safety coordinator as engineer and I came off of that when [Jill Burch 5:59] passed away and I was made the director of safety, and then I went into plant security as the chief of plant security, and then when they consolidated the two plants here in Lansing, I went down to maintenance as a coordinator of plant, with plant engineering, so that kind of sums up my career. [chuckle] Cheryl McQuaid: So we’re going to do something a little different today. We’re going to just kind of do a roundtable of your memories at the plant. Louise, I don’t – yeah, I did too get your date of hire in, didn’t I? You hired in in Warren [inaudible 6:34]. Louise Dean: 6/24/1963. Cheryl McQuaid: ’63. [6:40] And what – when you transferred to Lansing, what department did you transfer to? Louise Dean: To personnel and while in personnel I hired in labor relations and then went to salary personnel, hourly, insurance, and safety. All, all the time was spent in personnel. Cheryl McQuaid: [6:58] Was there a dress code when you hired in? Louise Dean: Yes. [chuckle] Dresses, skirts. Cheryl McQuaid: Dresses. That’s it, huh? Louise Dean: Right. No slacks, no pantsuits. John Dean: No smoking at your desk. Louise Dean: No smoking at your desk. No coffee. No, you could drink coffee at your desk but you had to smoke in the lounge. Cheryl McQuaid: [7:23] And Al, do you remember anything about the dress code when you hired in? Was there a dress code? Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yes. For salary you wore a white shirt and ties. But they were talking, she was talking about the smoking. When I hired in back at that time, the desk had spittoons next to them. John Dean: Yeah. Louise Dean: Oh. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: Andy did. Allen Van De Vusse: And that’s where when you smoked, we smoked at our desk and when afterward you, you just threw the butts in the spittoon. And it was probably somewhere around the late 50s where they took those out and I wish I had one of those old spittoons just as for memorabilia. John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: But then... Cheryl McQuaid: [8:12] So there was a spittoon by every desk? Allen Van De Vusse: Between two desks there would be a spittoon and that was all through the accounting department, so that was, that was quite unique I thought, [chuckle] not very sanitary. John Dean: You wouldn’t see it anymore, would you? Cheryl McQuaid: No. Allen Van De Vusse: Pardon? John Dean: You wouldn’t see it anymore. Allen Van De Vusse: No. But I was surprised to hear Louise say they couldn’t smoke at their desk because we always did. Louise Dean: I may have had it reversed. You had to smoke down the hall and drink coffee at your desk or drink... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, well. Louise Dean: Smoke at your desk. I don’t know. John Dean: They had lots of restrictions. I remember, remember that even when I came there, lots of things women couldn’t do the men could. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: One of them was that men could make more money than women could. Allen Van De Vusse: [chuckle] Well, that’s true, yeah, except on the line. On the line it was the same, yeah. John Dean: That was different, yeah, but salary it was [inaudible 9:05]... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, salary [inaudible 9:06]. John Dean: ...than the women. Allen Van De Vusse: Of course, there wasn’t, at that time, there wasn’t any women in the higher-paid jobs at all. John Dean: No. Allen Van De Vusse: So I guess you couldn’t really compare it. John Dean: No, not really. Cheryl McQuaid: I think when we interviewed, um, Shirley Sanborn she had mentioned that salary you weren’t even allowed to talk about how much you made. John Dean: That’s right. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh no. John Dean: Absolutely. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh, that was strictly secret. John Dean: Very confidential. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: You didn’t discuss that at all, good or bad, I don’t know how you’d, you know, classify that. But I know when I got into the higher positions, God, I had a lot of women working for me and when I looked at their pay as opposed to the pay of their counterparts in the same jobs, it was... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...ridiculously low. And when you went to the director to find out what’s going on here, these women are working as well and doing as good a job as the men, boy, you got your tail feathers singed right now I’ll tell you. I, I even went to the plant manager on one situation. They finally relented but you didn’t make any friends doing that I’ll tell you, because they, they just didn’t do it. Women were not to get paid what men got paid. You didn’t make any friends. [chuckle] Cheryl McQuaid: Al... John Dean: [Inaudible 10:23] all kind of stuff. Dress codes were funny for women. I remember one time that, of course, I was chief of plant security at the time and one of my female officers, she was a young girl, she came parading through the plant one day when short shorts were popular and she walked past the personnel director’s office and boy he was on the phone to me in a hot minute, “you get these girls straightened out” you know. And I was “what are you talking about?” I walked over there and sure as the devil she had on short shorts. Well, so what, you know. Well, you got to send them home to get their clothes on and all this and that. They just wouldn’t tolerate that stuff, you know. It’s weird, you know. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, today... John Dean: They [inaudible 11:00] about it. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: They did that throughout the plant. I mean, if a gal came in with shorts that were, you know more than halfway up the, the upper part of the leg, by gosh, you sent’m home. John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: They had to get something appropriate on, but that was a... John Dean: People didn’t like to confront those issues, I know that. I used to get calls when I was on safety on the night shift of, you know, I had one guy complaining about, the supervisor complained to me that this girl was working across in the old cushion room, you know, where they were out there in Building 19... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...when they had the cushion room out there and she wasn’t wearing any bra and she had a tank top on, you know, and when she would lean over the line to work, she was exposing herself. There was a guy that worked right across the street from her, right across the line from her that was really upset about this, you know, he was a Christian kid. And so when I went out there, and the supervisor didn’t want to address it, you know, and he thought it was a safety issue so here I am, you know. And, uh, so [chuckle] I went to her and I said you got to come in the office with me. I got to talk to you. And I talked to the guy, you know, and boy he was [inaudible 12:05] my wife and blah, blah, blah. Okay. We go in the office, I talk to this girl and I said, you know, I realize it’s hot out here and I know you want to be comfortable and this and that but you can’t expose yourself like this, you know. And she said I’m not, blah, blah, blah, defending it. And I said, well, you’re going to go home and you’re going to put some clothes on, that’s all there is to it ‘cause you can’t work tonight like that, but anyway, she goes home and she comes back and the next day, of course, the union comes out saying you can’t do that to our employees and I said, well then, I’ll write a new plant rule, you know. [chuckle] And that’s where that one came from, you know, that was, you know, if it’s offensive or abusive to other people, you can’t, you know, you can’t wear that type of clothing, that’s where that came from. [chuckle] Cheryl McQuaid: So you used to write some of the plant rules. John Dean: Oh yeah. [chuckle] People didn’t like to put things down on paper back then. The only way I find that you can make people do things or make them even cognizant of what it was supposed to be, you write it down. You get a bad reputation when you do that too. [chuckle] Cheryl McQuaid: Well, I always remember you having a good reputation, so. John Dean: Thank you. Cheryl McQuaid: It didn’t, uh, it didn’t follow you like that I don’t think Mr. Dean. John Dean: [inaudible 13:12] it’s hard to say. Irregardless, you do what you got to do. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Could you tell us – I think when we interviewed, um, Mr. McGhee. John Dean: Sam. Cheryl McQuaid: Sam McGhee. John Dean: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: I believe he was telling us a little bit about the cameras and some of the stuff the plant security had to do. John Dean: Yeah, yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: [13:32] Could you go into the plant security for us? John Dean: Well, yeah, back – what Sam was talking about the cameras was we were probably one of the first plants in Lansing to put up a security surveillance system around the periphery of the plant. Because we were getting so much damage out in the parking lot and you know [inaudible 13:48] enough people to patrol everything [inaudible 13:51] so we put cameras up all over the place so you could see the parking lot, so you can see the periphery of the plant and so, and all the monitors were down at the plant security desk so you could see anything, anytime you wanted to and some of the things you seen you didn’t enjoy seeing. [chuckle] But anyway, you know, it was, it was a way to deter theft and damage to people’s property and so, and you could also observe some things that you wanted to see but, or not to, you know, shouldn’t be made public, let me put it that way. But anyway, we used a lot of that stuff and we used a lot of controls for the periphery of the plant as far as doors and things of that nature, you know, to control people’s flow in and out of the plant. They wanted to put in, matter of fact, when I went to work there they had put in the alarm systems at the gates so, you know, when you walk through it would ring a bell if there’s a metal object and so on, which at, at that time they were unsophisticated and you couldn’t, you couldn’t temper them down so that it wouldn’t trigger at the slightest metal object going through them, see. So anyway it was ridiculous. I mean they turned those things on, I hadn’t been working there I don’t think three months when I was out there and hear this damn thing is going off, you know, and I’m going what in the world is happening here. The guys are carrying metal lunch buckets through there, well, they’re going to go off. [laughter] So anyway, they, they unhooked those very, very quickly so that they never were used. You probably when you went to work there you would probably see them sitting out there because they never did take them out. They just sat there for a long time. Well, now, of course, they went to these swinging gates and all that stuff that was prevalent when you used to work there and, you know, they had the punch cards and all that stuff. Well, these things that I’m talking about were the forerunner of all that stuff, see, to secure the plant. But, you know, the biggest thing that we had as far as security goes was the patrolling of the plant and all that really was was a deterrent to people doing things so that they were conscious that there was somebody there [inaudible 15:53]. All plant security really was was an observing and reporting organization. It was up to guys like Al to control their people. All we did was hand in reports that your guys did this, you know, and it’s our word against yours, you know, and do what you will with your people, you know, ‘cause we didn’t have any right to arrest or anything like that. We just report what we see, you know. And a lot of people thought that plant security people were cops. They weren’t cops. They were observers and reports and controllers and that’s all it amounted to. And we had some guys that thought they were cops, there’s no question about it but believe me, they were [inaudible 16:30]. Jerri Smith: Still do. John Dean: Oh yeah, I’m sure. [chuckle] But you know, and it was tough to get it across to those people ‘cause they, they get abuse like there was no tomorrow. There were no two ways about it. I remember when I was an officer, you walk around that plant, I would have guys challenge me nightly, you know, they’ll take you out and kick your tail and all this and that. Uh-huh, you bet, you know. [laughter] But you know, it’s part of the game. One of the most important things that plant security had was the fire protection systems, you know, and the people we had controlling all that stuff because they were vital. [Inaudible 17:01] you take like in that paint shop that Al had, I mean one spark up there, boy, they would go up like a candle, you know, so you had to keep everything under control and working condition so the [inaudible 17:12] alarm systems we had there, you know, we were continually working on that stuff because he had dry systems up there ‘cause a lot of the paint shop area was open to the outside air and therefore you can’t have water in the line because it would freeze and break so you had to use dry systems and you had these valves inside the main lines and so they had to be checked. And if they weren’t operating, the alarm would go off down at the desk then you got to get them repaired. You can’t have those things shut off so, you know. With a building that big or a facility that large you can’t have all these things shut down so you got to constantly be monitoring that stuff to make sure it was working. But that was a biggie and, of course, we had a guy on each shift to control that, you know, and to work with it and so on. And we had maintenance people specifically assigned to us so we keep that stuff operational. If you didn’t, [inaudible 18:01] burn the place down no matter what. [chuckle] Cheryl McQuaid: And it sounds like that was... John Dean: That was [inaudible 18:06]. Cheryl McQuaid: ...easy to do. John Dean: Well, believe me, we had some damage there at times. [chuckle] Scary, scary fires. Allen Van De Vusse: Yup. Cheryl McQuaid: Allen, John brought up the paint shop. [18:15] Why don’t you talk a little bit about the paint shop? You were there when it went from the old paint shop to the new shop, didn’t you? Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Weren’t you? Allen Van De Vusse: When I first went to Fisher Body we had, the paint shop was a one-line system through the sealer room and then it split. I had [inaudible 18:32] and then it was a two-line system and we built all convertibles on the one line and, and closed bodies on the other line and that was before we went into, uh, oh goodness, the, uh, the, the post-less cars, you know, where they, when you open the windows it was all open. What did you call those? John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: I can’t even remember. John Dean: I can’t remember now either. Allen Van De Vusse: [chuckle] At any rate... John Dean: [Inaudible 19:01] open all the way across. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, then in – when we came out with the F85 in 1961, we went from a... John Dean: [Inaudible 19:16]. Allen Van De Vusse: To a two... Cheryl McQuaid: Kind of like that picture, that’s a convertible. Allen Van De Vusse: No, that’s a convertible. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh, okay. Allen Van De Vusse: But the, the cars we had a two door and also a four door that had a roof on it but it was all open across just like a convertible, the windows rolled down in the back and down here. And, uh, but I was going to say in 1961 when we started building the, the F85 it was called at that time, it eventually became the Cutlass, uh, then it was a two-line system all the way through the paint shop and we built, had to build some additional spray hose because they had a painted interior on them. Then, uh, let’s see, that was, we continued that paint shop until we moved up into the new paint shop in 1984 when we started building the GM20 program. Uh, of course, there were a lot of changes in between but minor changes like every year they’d come in and do something minor. But that old paint shop, like I say, it lasted a lot of years. It was there long before I was, up until like say 1984. That’s kind of a brief history of the paint shop as I recall it. Cheryl McQuaid: [20:45] Do you remember any of your headaches from having that old of a paint shop? [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: All the time. John was talking about his safety and fire protection. One of the big... John Dean: That was a [Inaudible 20:54] down there. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: One of the big problems in the paint shop was contamination from a silicone base like hand creams or that had a silicone base. And we even got plagued with, with fish eyes they called them from, from a silicone-based material or a polymer and we couldn’t find that and couldn’t find it and finally it was coming over a wall from a room where they filled fire extinguishers. John Dean: Fire extinguishers. Cheryl McQuaid: [21:29] What is a fish eye? Allen Van De Vusse: It’s just a little imperfection in the paint but it’s, uh, kind of like if you get an oil spot on something, it’s just hard to get out. I mean you could sand the hell out of it... John Dean: It’s a pit or a bubble. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. And you’d sand it right down to the bare metal and you’d spray it again and the darn thing would pop right through again because [inaudible 21:51]. John Dean: You know where the main aisle was in Building 1 right where Building 9 offices are? Cheryl McQuaid: Yeah. John Dean: You come out that far north door there, the northeast door [inaudible 22:00] Building 9. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, yeah. John Dean: Right there was where the old fire hall was, okay, that’s where they had the firetrucks and stuff and that’s where we filled extinguishers. On the other side of that wall was his paint shop. [laughter] Allen Van De Vusse: That, that powder just floated out over this brick wall and, and my God, we just had an awful time finding that. John Dean: Oh yeah. Well, we had the same problem in the new paint shop. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: Because people would [inaudible 22:27] they touch off all those fire extinguishers up there. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: That stuff would go in the air, you know. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. Oh yeah. We had constant problems in the paint shop. They were, uh, the booth cleaners occasionally would leave the door open up on the roof of an oven, well, then you’d get contamination through just the outside air, the dust and everything and, and, well, paint shop was a constant battle. And it was always our fault no matter what happened. If the, if the body shop had a problem, the paint shop was supposed to fill it with sealer or something, you know, fix it up for them. John Dean: That’s true. Allen Van De Vusse: If the trim, if the trim shop had a problem, it was the paint shop’s fault because they had too much sealer in a window opening or it was always, it was a constant battle. John Dean: Coming up out of the body shop, you know... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...the last thing they do is grind on these things. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: It would be lead grinding, see. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: And then you’re supposed to go through a washer to take that stuff off. They get up to the paint shop and go around that [inaudible 23:27] area up there and then ship them down into paint, see, and man, that stuff would be on that car. He’s trying to get it off through the bonder right here and it won’t come off. [laughter] It was a [inaudible 23:40]. Allen Van De Vusse: It was a constant battle. John Dean: It was just always, you know, the people, I can remember, Al, when I was walking on housekeeping tours up there and people cookin’... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh. John Dean: ...in the damn ovens, you know. Grease splatter and all that stuff, you know. [laughter] Popcorn machines going, you know. [chuckle] Grease on everything. Allen Van De Vusse: In the old paint shop [coughing] on the night shift occasionally like at a holiday period somebody would get the idea and they, they actually put a, put a pig in an oven. John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: And they thought they had it all covered up with tinfoil but my God all of a sudden the cars started coming out just splattered with, with grease from this p-, pig being baked in the oven. [laughter] I’ll tell you, oh, if you go back, back in the fifties, the supervisors back then, of course, were taken from the line and they were, they were buddies with the people on the line. John Dean: Sure. Allen Van De Vusse: And you can’t imagine how many whisky bottles and that type of stuff that we took out of even foremen’s lockers. John Dean: Oh, you bet. Allen Van De Vusse: Because they were all buddy-buddy, you know, and especially the night shift. The day shift wasn’t quite so bad because a lot of people were around watching but that night shift was something else. John Dean: Even when I went there we used to, when the body shop was down there on, along Verlinden Avenue... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...in 3X I can remember us guys I’d put up a patrolman out there in the front of the building, you know, on the night shift. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: And here would come a rope out through the window, you know, a guy would tie on a six pack, all kinds. [laughter] And the same thing would happen out, you know, where the Executive Drive was, the Executive garage for the trim shop, right behind the trim shop you’d see them out there throwing stuff over the fence, you know, and guys running out there and grabbing it you know... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: ...and back in to the plant. It was just, you know. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: It’s the way things were. But I know when I first went to work there, drinking was very, very prevalent... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: ...in that shop. Allen Van De Vusse: Yup. John Dean: I mean, I know of even, you know, salary people having bars set up in their areas and you name it. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: It was different. [laughter] [coughing] Allen Van De Vusse: Then after the drinking, you know, that got under control pretty much. John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: But then drugs entered into the picture. John Dean: Then drugs came in. Allen Van De Vusse: And that was the worst... John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: ...thing than the drinking because it just was harder to control, you couldn’t. John Dean: Yeah. The alcohol we finally... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...did get that semi under control, you know. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: But that, that drug thing, that was just pretty wild. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: [Inaudible 26:23] maybe you could see it, you knew it, you know, and you could even, I had lists of people who were involved in that stuff, you know, but to do something about it was very, very difficult. And, you know, you tried to get help from, you know, the union guys and stuff, well, they [inaudible 26:40] put their foot in a noose, you know, or their neck in a noose. They’re not going to do that, you know, so you just kind of had to temper it as best you could, you know. And that, it led to some quality problems, it led to some, you know, safety issues. It led to a lot of things, you know. Allen Van De Vusse: Yup. John Dean: It just, you just did what you could do to help, you know, the situation as best you could and there wasn’t a whole lot you could do. I – we had some police working in there at one time and we had done a lot of things of that, you know, in those regards to try to control that. We even had police in the parking lot sometimes and those cameras were part of that issue and you sat there and watched the dealings going on, you know. You knew who it was, you know, and you could show it to the cops but they... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...they can’t do anything on private property until they get off private property, you know. So there were a lot of issues like that but it, it caused problems, there were no two ways about it. We could have a far better quality job coming out of there over the years if it hadn’t have been for alcohol and drugs. Cheryl McQuaid: So it was a major problem then. John Dean: Oh sure, sure it was. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah, yeah. Constantly. John Dean: Continually. Yeah, you know, it’s like Al was talking about the food and stuff, you know, in that plant. If you wanted to have an experiment, you wanted to come in to Fisher Body on Friday night at about 7 to 9:00 at night anyplace in there, you walk through that place and you’d smell fish, popcorn, pizza. [laughter] And of course back then, you know, the plant rules was you couldn’t, you couldn’t have coffeepots, you couldn’t have radios, you couldn’t be cooking in the plant, you know, and all that stuff, you know. And of course, the plant security guys were responsible for finding that stuff and reporting it to the supers and all this, you know. And you didn’t want to step on the people’s throat. It was bad enough being in there on a Friday night but on the other hand that was your job, you know, and it was a plant rule. Radios, my gosh you couldn’t have a radio. You couldn’t have nothing, you know. It was just awful. But over the years they relented on some of that stuff. I can remember getting calls from Tom [inaudible 28:31] the plant manager, get down there and get that situation straight. He went through that cushion room one night and he was just going crazy ‘cause there was all this country western music going. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: You couldn’t hear yourself think down there, you know, so. [chuckle] Russ was the safety guy on the day shift and I said come on Russ, you go [chuckle] down there with a noise meter, you know. [laughter] And I said okay, you guys, you’re over the decibel limit, turn them down. [laughter] It was awful but they finally relented on that stuff, you know. You could have coffeepots and if they were in their proper area and all that and same with the radios and all that crap, you know, but it was years. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: Boy, I mean we used to burn a lot of people... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...just for having that stuff around, you know, [inaudible 29:16]. Allen Van De Vusse: And even after they relented on, on those things, there again the paint shop couldn’t have... John Dean: No. Allen Van De Vusse: ...the, you know, the coffeepots and that because of the contamination and so those people were kind of discriminated against. John Dean: Remember that time we found that deodorants were causing problems in the paint shop? Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: Unbelievable. Allen Van De Vusse: [inaudible 29:39] yeah. Yeah, anything that like I say, that would have a, a silicone-type base to it like, like I say perfumes and any kind of makeups that... John Dean: We even found one problem one time with the shipping aids for the [inaudible 29:57] they’re coming in with the powdery stuff [inaudible 29:59]. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: Contaminated the paint shop. [chuckle] [Inaudible 30:05] hazardous materials we’d look at data sheets on all that stuff, you know. You could just look it up, you know, and sure as heck that would be the problem, you know. I remember one, several times that they’d have compressor problems over in the powerhouse and Al would go out and your filters up there are going crazy and all this and that. Well, it’s, you know, what he was talking about was the air supply valves was up on the roof, see. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: When they changed the filters up there a lot of times they’d knock a lot of stuff loose, you know, and the next morning, boy, you turn that line on, they’d have pits and crap in the paint job like there was no tomorrow. Well, I said we didn’t change any filters this time, you know. We didn’t do nothing. Well, come to find out what they had done was over in the powerhouse they had changed their filtration over there on the air supply system and they had even oiled up their equipment. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Oh boy, yeah. John Dean: He was suffering the effects because it went through the air supply lines into the paint shop. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: He’s got a mess. Cheryl McQuaid: Everything affected the paint department. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah, yes. It was, it was like I say, a constant battle all the time. The least little – oh, if you had a little breakdown in an oven, you know, which we had occasionally a body truck would come off the line for some reason, there was a piece of metal or something in the track and it would shake the oven, well, my God, then [inaudible 31:23] you had dirt... John Dean: Oh yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: ...because it just shook it all loose. John Dean: Well that, and the people going in there [inaudible 31:30]. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, yeah. People going in to fix the, you know, to take care of the breakdown. John Dean: A lot of times they’d scrap jobs right and left because they just couldn’t save them, you know, after that contamination [inaudible 31:41]. Allen Van De Vusse: And he was saying about getting calls from Tom [inaudible 31:44], of course. Did you know Tom [inaudible 31:48]? Cheryl McQuaid: I know I believe he worked there when I did but he wasn’t around. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: He was the plant manager. Allen Van De Vusse: Well, Tom [inaudible 31:56] was the kind he spent his Sundays in the plant and... John Dean: Dedicated guy. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. He, I mean, that was his life and that’s where he was at and many a Sunday morning I’d get a call, Al, come on down here, I need to show you something. Well, after about a few months of that, my wife would answer the phone, she’d say, well, Tom, he isn’t here. He’s in church. [laughter] And I, I think after that he’s going out to breakfast with some people, so. [laughter] She, she got where she’d make excuses for me ‘cause I mean he just wanted company really. John Dean: That’s what it was. He loved that. Allen Van De Vusse: He just wanted somebody there... John Dean: He was a dedicated guy. Allen Van De Vusse: ...to walk around the plant with him, you know, so he could point things out. [chuckle] John Dean: Yeah, he loved that. Man, he’d come by my office and he’d grab me and we’re going to go for a walk. And all you did was you take your little pad with you, write down all these comments ‘cause he had something to say about everything. There was a plant manager that was hands on [inaudible 32:59]. Allen Van De Vusse: [Inaudible 32:59] yeah. John Dean: Everything. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: And he expected you to be an authority on everything too. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: But he was, he was the kind of guy he was, what do I want to say, a dominant individual, very dominant and to the point that he was a dictator. He’d not only point the problem out to you, he’d tell you how he wanted it corrected. [laughter] Louise Dean: He could write beautiful letters. Mr. [inaudible 33:23] could write beautiful letters. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh [inaudible 33:25] writer. Yeah. John Dean: Oh, he could do that. Allen Van De Vusse: He would jot three to four letters a day [inaudible 33:29]. John Dean: He was the one that told me to start writing stuff down, writing policy and procedure. He didn’t want to hear about it anymore, he wanted to see it, yes sir. [laughter] Allen Van De Vusse: Well, you know, I had experiences too because I was in, I was a time study person for a number of years. Cheryl McQuaid: Now t-, time study, [33:49] could you explain what a time study person is? Allen Van De Vusse: Well, we had, when I first started we had a single stopwatch and a board of the single stopwatch on it and you’d go out and you’d write down the elements of a job. Like if you were putting sealer on the body in the paint shop, you’d write down what they were, where it was being, uh, applied and, uh, you’d time each, each little segment of the job. And then this was a requirement in our plant that every job in the plant would be studied every year and it took the first, oh, two, three months of the new model run to get all the studies of everybody and, of course, people used to kind of resent us and they’d drag their feet and, uh. John Dean: Well, there was walk and carry time and... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah, you had [inaudible 34:48]. John Dean: ...bend and twist. Allen Van De Vusse: You’d break... John Dean: All the elements. Allen Van De Vusse: You break it right down to as, as fine an element as you could time. And, uh, they were useful in a lot of cases and, and it didn’t just work for the company. Uh, I recall one time that a gentleman that was at that time who later became a paint superintendent, Bob Brown, he called me one day and he said this young lady just has got a problem, he said we can’t, she can’t get her job done and she wants you to come out and study it. So I went out and, and when I studied it I told Bob, I said, well, she really has got too much work she can’t keep up, so we had to break the job up. So it did help the person sometimes too, more, more for the company than, than the line worker but it did help them on occasions. And that was – we had a book in the office and I had every job on a, on a sheet of paper [inaudible 35:52] paper [coughing] [inaudible 35:53] and at that time I knew everybody’s job. If you walked up to me and say what does Jane Doe do out there, I could tell you exactly what she did. And that was, that was my job just – and make recommendations on, of course, how you could save money, how you could reduce manpower, how you could do a job better, more efficiently. Now you brought up ergonomics. Now at that time we didn’t even think about that. John Dean: No. Allen Van De Vusse: That was, that was not a, not a... John Dean: Not even an issue. You just did your job. Allen Van De Vusse: ...[inaudible 36:29]. It was just how to do the job [beeping] more efficiently and that was, that was the job. The same way you know back when I hired in, I went into payroll. I talked about knowing every job in the paint shop, I knew that well. When I hired into payroll, I had the cushion room and the Building 5 Paint which had at that time a polish line and a repair line. And after, oh, I don’t know, a few weeks, my boss at that time said okay, come on, I want you to tell me who these people are. You had to go out and tell him, go down the line and say, well, this is, this is Jane and that’s Bob and this is Joe and that’s, you know, you had to know everybody’s name. That was a criteria. That was a, that was something, by God, [coughing] you had to do and so you, like I say, you learned how to remember people and you remembered after that how to remember everybody’s job, what they were doing. And at that time also I used to go in and spray jobs so I’d know what, what the job was or I’d put sealer on the job. And the people were very cooperative. They, they all used to call me Little Al, here comes Little Al. [laughter] John Dean: The girls liked you best. [laughter] Allen Van De Vusse: Pardon me? Cheryl McQuaid: John said the girls liked you best. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh, well. John Dean: Back then there was two areas that were loaded with women, one was the sealer line... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: ...and the other was the cushion room. Boy, I’ll tell you, [inaudible 38:01]. Allen Van De Vusse: Well, see, we had cut and sew. When I first went there, they had a cut and sew department and they made all the trim, the seat covers and, uh, side, the side panels for the doors and all that. We made that right in our plant. Well, then they sent that down to [inaudible 38:22] to a centralized cut and sew department and, of course, the cut and sew department was primarily all female so there was, those ladies had to go, you know, filter in to other departments and paint shop was the biggest recipient. They, they picked up most of the, most of the females that came out of the cut and sew department, that and the cushion room. The cushion room also, uh, took over, took part of them so that’s how really – well, when I first went on supervision out of qual- or out of the labor standards into the paint shop, I went on as a supervisor, a line supervisor and I had 40 women working for me and there were probably four or five men was all but the whole line was women. Cheryl McQuaid: [39:11] And that was approximately what year? Do you remember when you went into...? Allen Van De Vusse: Uh, 1966. Cheryl McQuaid: That was in ’66 a lot of women. Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yes, yeah. John Dean: Oh, when I went there in ’71 that cushion room was all women and they had men supervisors. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: They had women, women, they had the sealer line I’m going to say was 90% women. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah, yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: [39:29] How many female supervisors back then? [coughing] Allen Van De Vusse: None. John Dean: None. You didn’t get into that until the 80s. Allen Van De Vusse: Yup. No, we didn’t have any. John Dean: It’s like when Al was talking about ergonomics and safety, see, those were nonissues. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: They didn’t exist. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: I remember when I went in the safety department. I was the night shift rep, [chuckle] the most hated person in the world because they didn’t know safety. They didn’t care. They didn’t want it, you know. Well, they, they didn’t want it because they didn’t understand it. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: They didn’t know it was a hindrance to production, you know. And the white-shirted people were the worst of the bunch. The hourly rate, you know, they [inaudible 40:02], you know, but they wanted to use it from the standpoint of a better job, you know, get, get something for themselves out of it... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...you know, rather than eliminating an issue. And Russ Bower at the time I went on, when I went on as director, why Russ was just coming on as the UAW rep for safety and we’d go out and we’d look at some of these situations, you know. It was God awful. I mean they had to have a little woman like, you know, 3 foot tall... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...working up here on a line, you know, and they’d wonder why she was hurting you know. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. That’s true. John Dean: Because you tell the super, she can’t work like that or he can’t work like that, nobody cares, it’s his job, you know, well. [chuckle] Allen Van De Vusse: What John is saying, you know, uh, short people, we had some short people but they came, we hired short people years ago because when we went, when they went through the water test up in trim, they’d climb in the trunk and ride through the water test in the trunk with their flashlight... John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: ...to see if there was any leaks and they specifically hired shorter people to do this job. John Dean: Yup. Allen Van De Vusse: And then they quit doing that. They went to a black light, what they called a black light system... John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: ...and so they didn’t need these people anymore so therefore we got them into other jobs in the plant. And like John was saying I had one real short lady that you just had an awful time finding a job she could do because she was so short. John Dean: You wouldn’t believe... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...what it took to get a platform built so... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yeah. John Dean: ...a person didn’t have to stand on their tiptoes to do their job. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: It was just, everybody had complete disregard for safety. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: And the employees were as bad as the, the salary people because you know, they, they didn’t know what was going on. They had no idea, no conception of what that was all about, you know. You’d try to say, well, you know, but then as you got going, as you got the, the safety process going in people’s mind and it took a lot of beatin’ up of a lot of people, you know [inaudible 42:00] beatin’ up on myself I know that [chuckle] ‘cause people didn’t like you, you know. They started misusing it. You ever see, look at all the fans in Fisher Body. I mean every job had a fan for it, you know. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: And some of it was all right, some of it wasn’t, see. They wanted to use safety as the issue to get a fan for personal cooling, you know, and it really wasn’t. It was just, you know, I’d just tell the supervisor when I’d go up there, Bower would do the same thing, you know, this isn’t a safety issue, it’s a, you know, comfort issue. Do you want your employee to have it or don’t you, you know. And so they started a, uh, a stamp system, if we felt it was a safety issue, you know, like fumes or something [inaudible 42:38], we’d stamp the work order. If not, then it was just a comfort thing, you know. And it was just crazy back in those days. [chuckle] You know, finally they just put’m up wherever they wanted, you know, and you’ve seen thousands of them up there, I’m sure you have. But that was just one thing. But I mean it was just ungodly to try to get a safety program going in that plant and we finally did. It finally started taking hold and I always felt that the only way you were going to make it work in there, and when I left safety I told them that, you ought to get the hourly-rated people involved. That will be the driving force, that’s all there is to it. And if you’re just going to rely on two salary guys and one guy from the UAW working on it, it ain’t going to work, you know, ‘cause you’re going to be the bad guys and all the other guys would be the good guys so you got to get the good guys involved in it, you know. Well, they finally did [chuckle] and it took off from there but it was, it was like pulling teeth for a lot of years. Allen Van De Vusse: Well, you know, in that same vein, back when I hired in in ’53, you know, a shop job was the low, the lowest thing you could do. I mean back then if you went to work for Fisher Body on the line, I mean it was because you couldn’t get anything else. Well, you saw the transformation from being an undesirable job to being, boy, I wish I could get in there because the pay is good and, you know, the working conditions were so much better and everything because as it, as the years went along these changes happened... John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: ...and it made it from a sweatshop and a hellhole into a desirable place to work and it was quite refreshing just to go through that transformation so that was... John Dean: I remember going to the body shop, you know, back then and, you know, all that welding going on, there were a lot of people down there then. It wasn’t all equipment then. And man, the smoke would be so thick down there you couldn’t see straight, you know. And when I went into safety I find out why it was that way ‘cause they’d, they’d damaged the air handling units during the winter to get warm, you know. And therefore when it comes summertime, you know, it’s so doggone hot and that smoke would just hang in there because the air handling units were destroyed, you know, and they weren’t functional so therefore they wouldn’t pull that stuff out of there, you know. So it was just a constant campaign to get maintenance to go down there and get those body shop supervisors to handle the situation for their own employees. Get the smoke out of here, you know. The equipment was there, they just didn’t maintain it. [coughing] It was just unbelievable but nobody cared, you know. It was just, you know, you could see smoke and soot hanging in the air down there. If you ever remember walking through the body shop when changeover came and they’d be washing down all that stuff, that smoke and soot would be that thick all over everything up there. Cheryl McQuaid: [45:26] And how thick is that? John Dean: About a quarter of an inch to half an inch. Cheryl McQuaid: Quarter of an inch. John Dean: Yeah. It would just lay in that stuff, you know, but, but people didn’t seem to care. They just didn’t, you know. And it was just, I remember when we started the solder grinding program, you know. People were going down to the hospital to get their blood levels checked for lead and lead was a serious problem and, geez, they’d be elevated way up beyond reason. Well, part of it was misuse by people but they’d carry their cigarettes in their shirt pocket, you know. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: And the lead dust would go in there, you know, and they’d smoke the cigarettes and, of course, it would be contaminated. Well, once we got the program going, you know, and they got hoods on these people and we were washing the hoods and we were doing all the good stuff to take care of the lead problem and we had signs on the doors telling them what to do and all this, the lead levels went right down where they should be, they were normal, you know. So all of a sudden we started getting a rash of high lead levels again and I couldn’t figure out why ‘cause we were doing all the same stuff, you know. I go down to the hospital one night and I’m looking at this guy, his level was way high, you know. And I said what do you do at home? He said, well, he said, I repair automobiles. [chuckle] And I said what do you wash parts with? Gasoline. I said, oh, come to find out what he’s doing is washing parts in gasoline. Of course, gasoline has got lead in it, it absorbs into his skin. It had nothing to do with the plant. [chuckle] And then we got to figuring out that if a guy wanted out of booth, because the booth grinding job was not a desirable job to have, you know, they’d do something like that cause, you know, if your level was high, we’d have to take you out of the booth and put you on another job until you got the level back down and seniority put you back in there, see. People were clever, believe me. [chuckle] But no, it was, it was just something. It was interesting. I always said Fisher Body was a city within a city and, you know, you just had to look at it from that point of view, you know. You had all kinds of human elements in there and different types of people. And, and there was a lot of nepotism in Fisher Body. I mean you would be surprised how many people were related to other people that knew other people. It was unbelievable. [coughing] Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. And that was good and bad in a lot of respects because you, uh – when I – I never had – my son came to work there but he never worked for me or anything. But, but I, I think that a person that their, their child comes to work there, that, that child has something to live up to, you know. They can’t be the, the hell-raiser and that because their dad or their mother is there and they’re watching them so it, it helped in that regard. And, and it was a close knit area even though we had at one time 5000 people, you know, at Fisher Body and, my gosh, you know, you just about knew everybody even though it was that many people. I had the fortune or misfortune going on nights occasionally and working with the night shift and like we’ve said, you get to know the people there but it was a, it was a different life on the night shift. You just went, just like they say, from night to day because it was entirely different. And I think the people on the night shift were even closer than the people on the day shift really. But it, it was, like John said, it was a city within a city and a real experience, so. John Dean: Yeah, you should have stepped in to some of the staff meetings we had on issues with [inaudible 49:09], you know, here you’re sitting there and [chuckle] everybody in that room is related to somebody, you know. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: We’re going to take a short break now. John Dean: Sure. [recording clicks off] Allen Van De Vusse: Do you want me to repeat that? Cheryl McQuaid: Yeah. [49:23] Tell us that story. Allen Van De Vusse: Uh, the offices for the personnel department and the cafeteria was in the basement where later the, it was a [inaudible 49:39] area for the body shop down there after that, after they tore that out and built a new cafeteria upstairs in Building 9. John Dean: Yeah. Allen Van De Vusse: And the ladies every year, hourly and salary, would put on a fashion show and it was, and also a talent show. They, they’d have people come in in this big, in the cafeteria down there and they’d, they’d have a fashion show and a talent show and I can’t remember any, [coughing] the one gal was married to a Sober. What was her name? She was the clerk, uh. Louise Dean: Lil [inaudible 50:21]. John Dean: Lil [inaudible 50:23]. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. Lil, Lillian. She was part of it. Louise Dean: Lillian [inaudible 50:25]. Allen Van De Vusse: And Sober and about four other names, but. Louise Dean: [Inaudible 50:29] Allen Van De Vusse: [Inaudible 50:31], yeah. Louise Dean: [inaudible 50:32], not Sober. Allen Van De Vusse: Not Sober, [inaudible 50:25]. Right. He was a... Louise Dean: Country western. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. Louise Dean: He sang in bars. Allen Van De Vusse: That was a, you know, there was so many, it was like your home. Fisher Body at that time was not a second home. John Dean: Family. Allen Van De Vusse: It was almost your... John Dean: Your family. Allen Van De Vusse: It was almost your first home and, uh, ‘cause you spent so much time there and there was activities like that. Like I way saying, between the office buildings and the old paint shop back in the early fifties, between there was the grassed areas and they had horseshoe pits in there where the hourly rate and the salary people would go out there at noontime during lunch periods and, and play horseshoes and they had contests and, and tournaments and everything back there at that time. Well then, that was all filled in and the, the garage was put in there and then the other part was built into the paint shop and also there was a conference room. Remember the conference room that was back there, John? John Dean: Yup, sure do. Allen Van De Vusse: And, uh, but... John Dean: If you remember that area, Al, that later became a maintenance storage area for equipment and stuff... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...for a lot of years. And plant security was on the other side of the aisle from that, from the main entrance. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: They moved over to that area and boxed in an area and put their security system in there and so on. Then they moved that, that junk out of there that was down in that storage area for maintenance and they made it into an office area for when they started having the UAW people... Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: ...have offices and [inaudible 52:04]. Allen Van De Vusse: Yup. Yeah, they did. John Dean: At the far end of that area was a tunnel that used to went all the way up to the Building 2... Allen Van De Vusse: Oh yes. John Dean: ...office area up to [inaudible 52:13] office... Allen Van De Vusse: Yup. John Dean: ...the plant’s manager’s office. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: I remember when we backfilled that in the eighties, you know. It was all filled in with sand and everything so we could build a new trim shop over there in Building 15. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: Just a lot of changes took place. Cheryl McQuaid: Well, I know that you do have another appointment and I really appreciate all the time you spent with us this morning and if you would like to come back and spend some more time with us. Allen Van De Vusse: Sure. Cheryl McQuaid: I know that we have only gotten the tip of your stories and memories. Allen Van De Vusse: Okay. Cheryl McQuaid: So I really thank you both, thank you all. Jerri Smith: Yes, thank you very much. Allen Van De Vusse: Okay. Louise Dean: It was fun. John Dean: Yeah, it was. Allen Van De Vusse: Yeah. John Dean: Enjoyed it. /mlc