•

IB:

IA:

January 28, 1992.
taping Reo Memories.

This is Shirley Bradley and Lisa Fine and we are

Our subject today is Louis Garcia.

And if you don't have any problems with when, telling us when, what
year.

Garcia:

Huh, ah, no big deal.

IA:'

We'll have to worry about the women, I guess, when we ask that
question.

Garcia:

4/19/21.

IA:

Okay, 21, and how long were you in Mexico?

When did you leave?

Garcia:

I was in and 'out of there until I was two years old and then about
two years, maybe more 30 months but then I went back.
go, my mother used to go back.
came in in 1914.
then we, he never went back because the family started gettin' big so
from then on, just stayed here,

In fact he's registered in the First World War but

My dad always stayed here 'cause he

Gratiot County.

See, I used to

•

IA:

Gratiot County, oh. What, in the country or the city?

Garcia:

Country, farm yeah.

We farmin'.

IA:

And urn, there was something else I wanted to ask you about that.
the whole family come at first?

Did

Garcia:

Only two of us at first, my mother and then I got a brother who was
born there and he was about 18 months when he left, I mean, us two,
my mother and dad, they stayed with .....

IA:

Did they come to Michigan 'cause they knew people here?

Garcia:

No.

IA:

They just ...

Garcia:

That's the way people traveled back then. They just, no my dad came
first
before that.

14, I think was 16 but he was in United States

IA:

Ah, huh.

Garcia:

IA:

•

But he moved to this, the first place was, he come to Durand and from
there he went to
Then he ·came down 'cause at that
time he was tending the forest
into farming.

woods apart.

Then he got

, Michigan.

Um, the other things was, that we had on the list was, you

Okay.
know, when, well, let's deal with the family first.
wife so I know you have a wife and children?

I talked to your

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 2

Garcia: My children?

IA:

Yeah, your ...

Garcia:

I got five.

IA:

And your parents were born in Mexico.

Garcia: Right.

IA:

As their parents before them?

Garcia:

why down to thell~

age.

IA:

Okay, and how many brothers and sisters did you have?

Garcia:

There was 13 of us.
girls.

There was eight brothers, eight boys ftnd five

IA:

And they all eventually, well, you were, you were the oldest?

• Garcia: Um, hum.

I was the oldest and John was second and the other ones all
were born here. We would a been born here but my mother wanted to be
with momma, which was my grandmother. So she'd go back, see, and
she'd stay there for, long enough so I could walk or whatever.
I
don't know.
when she got pregnant again, she went back down again and she came
back when he was 18 months.

Then she come back and see her husband and then she'd,

I

I

IA:

Well, it's nice to have the help, I know that.

Garcia: Well, I think she felt lonesome.

IA:

IS:

Garcia:

Sure, sure.

Especially when you're ...

English, she couldn't speak English. My dad spoke English but my
mother was very limited at that time. She really couldn't speak
English probably till the war time, 1920, '22, '23. If it wasn't a
Polish, he was a Russian.
If it wasn't Russian, Italian so they had
a heck of a time in those areas, back in them days, there was no,
English was spoken only in the town and when we went to visit a
house, whatever they were, that's what they was speaking.

IA:

And when you went to school, did you go to school up in Gratiot
County ...

•

Garcia: Uh,huh.

•

•

•

Louis Garcla
1-28-92
Page 3

IA:

or was it down here in Lansing?

Garcia: Two country schools.

IA:

Country schools.

Garcia:

Little dinky one room school with a big furnace in it. That's how I
was educated.

I liked it. I still wish they'd teach that way.

IA:

IS:

Garcia:

I know Glen felt that way, too.

More personalized. Yes, he did.

teach that way.

One teacher controlled.
I got slapped. I got, hit my hands like, put your hands

I mean, she could

control.
out there, slapped on top with a ruler.

So.

IA:

Did you go to high schooI, too, or ...

Garcia: Yup, high school, then I finished that in Maple Rapids.

IA:

Oh, okay. And you said, I think I remember from the luncheon that
you started working at REO during the War?,

Garcia: No, right after the War.

I went to war first.

I got into the Second

World War.

When I come back, I applied for the job.

IA:

S-oit was 1945, ,46?

Garcia:

'46.

IA:

'46, okay.

Garcia:

Ooah, boy, whether it was in May
........ with my folks.

'cause I went to Mexico first

IA:

Oh, they were back down there again?

Garcia:

I took 'em down.

IA:

Oh, you took 'em down. Oh, that's nice.

Garcia:

I drove 'em down and then they came back.
got the records but
manager at the time. Of course, he's gone now, Charlie Farrow and he
interviewed me.
, of course, I think
everybody hears that when you young.

Charlie Farrow was the personnel

I think it was in May.

He says,

I

IA:

'Cause you had gone to college, I mean to high school?

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 4

Garcia:

Yeah. .
school.
went in there
qualified.
me to work.

graduated,

.
I went through all kinds of
I

I says, I want to work.

service ,and I went to the non-com
schooling there, too, and then I
said, what do you mean, over
I don't care what it is. He put

IA:

Yeah, 'cause it was hard after the War.

Garcia:

I said, I don't go by
You put me in the door and I'll tell you what I'll do after that.

qualifications

.

IA:

And what did they put you on?

Garcia:

They put me on, the first thing was a little dinky room that they cut
bar steel and it was dirty and dusty and everything.

IA~

Cut bar steel.

Garcia:

Cuttin' steel
............................. to me
ton press cuttin'

and anyway

probably was a 75

.

a lot of it was a bar, heavy bar

.

IS:

And you'd feed the bars into it?

Garcia:

A certain length, give a dimension, you
dimension except that's nothing to Ime 'cause I already knew a lot of
that stuff through schooling or through working 'cause I had worked
in a press area, Seattle, Was,hington,when I was in service.
sneak after work .ltl)./.c{. fl1 . (:).if[ #AkI too~
,

so much

Used to

IS:

You did?

Garcia:

Oh, yeah..

any

a dollar.

IS:

You heard there was some jobs, some employment there so you did that,
moonlighted and did that?

Garcia:

That was in Seattle, Tacoma, Washington, both places, several

Yeah.
little plants in there and
how to, you know, read and scale and all that stuff.
need for that stuff.
supervisor thought I was pretty good so they moved me out of there
and put me ...

So they, worked there and then I guess the

work so then, but I already knew

That's all you

IA:

What did you start at, what pay do you know?

Garcia:

What page?

IA:

Pay did you start at, how much per hour?

•

•

L0uis Garcia
1-28.;.92
Page 5

Garcia:

You could buy a car

I'd have to look back.

I, it was real cheap an hour.

I mean, 85 cents an hour so then I went out of there and

Oh, money, it was piece work but they started you at 90 cents or 85
cents an hour.
I mean, it was good money, don't get me wrong.
with that.
I g<>tinto the 90 cents an hour or 92 cents an hour into the press,
what they call the press division.
I guess, from where they bought the raw material and then cut it then
send it in to the press area for machineries ~
kind of a
So they put me
in the press division in there and then I started workin', I guess,
what they call helpers where
operate and pretty
soon I was the
up a die, you know, so I says sure, I can set that thing up.
sure?
little dies, piece a little better
Tacoma so I got in there.

So then they asked me if I c0uld set

It is just a little cutoff from,

I says, you just let me know and

remember, I could still see it.

little in Seattle and

You
did those

operator.

It waS

IB:

Sa you kind of ..... basic operation.

Garcia:

The basis, this thing is just like pickin' up the phone.
same for everybody, just switch languages, you know, same thing, the
punch it
die's bigger with different mold or somethin'
the same way, the same adjustments anyway and they had me settin'
dies.

So then I got promoted to d!~ ...

and I think that was $1.15 .

Talk the

.sE'J~~

IA:

And this was all within a few years?

Garcia:

No, no, no,

very short.

IA:

Oh, no, it took a long time?

Garcia:

Short.

IA:

Oh, even less than that?

Garcia:

I climbed pretty quick, pretty quick.

They just must a seen

No, I was

I didn't go
quick and

, I had a rough time

to do that.

young guy with

Very short, yeah.
ask.
then the
this old timer

IA:

Um, hum, that you were moving up?

Garcia:

They couldn't touch your, yeah, you couldn't touch their machine.
That was their machine.

Their machine had a name and I remember ...

IA:

A nickname?

Garcia:

Yeah,

.

IA:

That they made up?

•

Louis Garcia·
1-28-92
Page 6

Garcia:

Yeah, like Mary
always remember Mary
all
Well, you couldn't tell him nothin'.

, that machine was called ma
Wilson,

Gaylord was the old setup man, the old leader like.

machine.

I

Gaylord was, we

IA:

He's an old timer from the '20s, '30s?

Garcia:

Old timer that was
six years.

IA:

I see.

Garcia:

Ten, you know.

, yeah, and ready to retire the next five,

IB:

Garcia:

So here comes this shOOEing.. upstart.

Youl1Jq

ulo

.

Yeah, here I come youngAstart and, what do you know about this and
get the heck out of my way and then he used to, I Just didn't pay
attention.
about three and a
half inch diameter
well, he was always being snotty to me so he says to me, okay, can
you help me tighten up the nut or can you tighten that nut.
can, I says, but I can break it off for you if you want me to.
be smart!
You can't break it off.
that inch and a half diameter bolt ...•.......

and he said somethin' about,

So I give her a yank and I broke

when they

Sure I

Don't

IA:

Oh, my goodness.

Garcia:

Now, I mean, I couldn't break it off

.

IB:

I think you like a challenge.

Garcia:

Well, he was always mouthin' up at me, see, and you know, like, old
whipper snapper, I was a strawboss, I was everything because I was a
young guy.
machine that much longer

But he told me I couldn't break this and I

.

.

IA:

Oh, Lord.

Garcia:

He pxobab ly done some things he

I mean, they, I had a rough time.

Well, Glen did the same way.
shouldn't a done but, well, we taught them old buggers some things,
you know.
people but you learn from 'em and I took that, that's the way I
started lookin' at it. They won't learn from me, knuckleheads.
called 'em knuckleheads.
'cause you know I'm gonna learn without you even teachin' me.

I
A bunch of knuckleheads what you guys are

I'll never forget those

IA:

Ab, huh, you could just observe.

•

•

•

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 7

Garcia:

I said, I might not use your language but I'll tell you one

Sure.
thing, I'll learn whatever you got on top of, you know, whatever,
because they didn't want to teach younothin'.

IB:

They felt threatened, I suppose.

Garcia:

Yeah, they felt threatened, yeah, they called that job security in
them days and I didn't believe it.
I believe in teaching everybody
and everybody's got the same job security because the one that
performs the best is the ones they gonna keep anyway.

IB:

Sure.

Garcia:

And so he went, so then from then on, I don't, I don't, I have to
look at my records, then ..... what they call a strawboss, a real
strawboss ..~.
Well, no, I went in tool and die room.
took two years, two and a half years tool and die room.
Mr. Zimmer came ..

worked for awhile and then they put me on foreman.
me up and so I

They

That's when

IA:

Zimmer, I was gonna ask you about him and he's the one that picked
you out.

Garcia:

I think about, I have to look at my

Yeah, he told, told me I got to pull you out of here and I didn't
wanna 'cause I wanted to finish and get my journeyman card which was
five years training, see,and
papers but I think it was about two and a half years which is good,
the basic things are taught in the two and a half years.
From then
on, most of the other two and a half or two years is mostly actual
internship like. You really applying everything in the .... back
what you learn so when you graduated or when you received your
certificate in five years, why, you earned it both ways by studying
and by actual application.
two and a half years and then they put me on supervision which LtI,Il..s hJ 1:;
strawboss.
to strawboss.
there.

Strawboss was on hourly so went
From then I kept going from

But he pulled me out about, it was about~#

Now you went on salary.

Then I went on salary.

#f

IA:

How did those, those old guys think about you, when you became a
supervisor?

Garcia:

, I had a little

I had a
power hammer department and all they did was hammer material
I mean, it was an art. You don't have those arts anymore.
lot of 'em gone but power hammer,
mean, to me they was old.
nice but to me they
there.
told me that, you know, he says, I'm moreless~aIM.~
says, and you just can't do too much.

He just passed away two years ago, 90 some years old.

so they had what they call a
.
There's a
I

They wouldn't a been old if they'd a been
and ah, and old Hank Foresman was in

this group, he
You're nothing but a strawboss

old geezers in there.

He

•

•

•

Louis Garci.a
1-28-92
Page 8

he said,
ana you just get your little butt over there and,
..... get over in that other department and you stay over there and
you just watch from over there. We'll do the work and all this and
all that. Well, I have to go in there and line 'em up and what to
do, you know, the schedule, you know.
I says, well, I'll be here in
the morning, I says, every morning and I'll be here at noon and I'll
be here in the afternoon before you go home.
schedule then I'll review it at noon and then I'll check it out and
I'll check it whep you go home.
tell you about it and I walked out.

See any problems, I'm still gonna

First I'll give you the

IB:

Didn't he anything, much better to do with his time.

Garcia:

and they all got

Do you know what happened?

I told 'em to get the hell out

They said they wanna walk out.

But you ain't never done this!

You guys all get the hell out of

I'll run thecl'I.v.,:S~auif I have to do it myself, I says,

I don't need any of you, see, and they walked out and, well,
I says,

So, I don't know what happened but they give me a rough time, I don't
kRow, I think the third or fourth week and he
in an uproar and they said, well, we just gonna walk out of the Job
and I says, I'll tell ya what.
here.
the superintendent come down.
yeah.
of here.
union or no union.
surprised what I could do. You just, so I went and got another guy,
Ernie Kaveson(?).
I don't know, he's still probably around, Ernie
Kaveson, and they got, some guys that I associated with, you know,
they were young guys just like me and go
We would hammer those down for
there, three of us counting myself.
us to keep the line going and we did, kept going and going and I put
some more, finally I have about five or six people in there with
myself and then something went wrong, they have a leather that just
strap that goes in the h-q.iJJ.4 .. leather strap and you thread that and
that's the one that gives you the cushion of the hammer and it's what
takes the impact and does the whole thing, the operation, when it
vibrates and so, then Ernie come in
he says, there's no problem.
says, all we got to do is look at that one that isn't busted and do
the same thing to it. We'll get it. Don't worry.
said, I'll do it, then you learn it. Those old buggers

Oh yeah, I said, that's an art.

You watch me.

brought 'em in

Hey, you be

Aw,
I

I
.

IB:

Did you ever have any problems from the union for letting those men
go?

Garcia:

I'm gonna take care of it.

Don't argue with 'em 'cause I want to

Oh, yeah, so I told the superintendent, I'll take, I'll answer.
just, just send' em to me.
handle them people.
it.
doin' all this and tryin', barely making the, meetin' the line,
they're, I mean, I guess, I started gettin' a call from Hank at home.
Louie, he says, I'm ready to talk.
ready to settle this

I says, they're workin' for me, I want to handle
So then, in the meantime while I was

You must have production down.

get

You

Oh,

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 9

No problems at,all.

I don't care what you got.

I said, I don't really need you.

So he, they finally settled that down.

In fact, we're
'cause he couldn't come in

I said, you might be ready but I'm not, I'm too busy and I

Who would know, so I said, we're runnin'
Well, we're ready to

I said, you get the union
I said, when you come back, I
No more of this, you know, that

That's all I was
He, how would he know if I didn't have a few pieces

no, we're runnin' beautiful.
ahead of production, you know,
there 'cause they walked out, see, but he could check by calling, you
know, but he knew that the line wasn't going down.
gonna tell him.
hid some place, you know.
real good.
talk.
played it like that for about three, four days and then he said, he
was gonna get the union to get into it.
anyway.
said, you comin' on my conditions.
I'm this and I'm that.
I am the one that's gonna run the department.
I'm never gonna boss you or mistreat you but you gonna listen when I
got somethin' to say.
meantime, I trained these guys
anything about nothin' but we trained ourself and then, it's quite an
I mean, you have to, it takes you, that takes you about an
art.
hour, two hours to explain how that metal is, you got to shrink it,
know how to shrink it, how to expand it and still control the
dimensions of the whole top or whatever you're makin', a,fender.
know, you can't make it humpy like this.
as the print calls for, see.
................ take it easy. We really
ruin a piece, see, but we did it but then they come in and then we
have a meeting naturally·with the union and I still talked.
superintendent, don't say nothin'.
says, you might say somethin', I says, you're gonna fire 'em up
again.
are alright.
I says, don't worry about it.
till he died last year, he
Hank,
always send me a nice card
He was a beautiful writer .
.......... every time he send a letter he says, don't ever forget,
Louie, you was the best boss we've ever known.

Not that I care, I says, we could settle, I says, these guys
.

You
You got to make it the same
part but we learned that

So we settled and they come back and

They just think they're

take our time and to

I'll do the talkin'.

They're not goin'.

My
Don't, I

none of us knew

best friend

This is

In the

IB:

Hum, quite a compliment.

Garcia:

Yeah, he changed his tune" I'll t eLl, you but he

He always
was a smart man.
the other hammer man, he was a smart man.
that worked there were old but they were smart because they had a
trade and ...

Carl
The other, all them guys

I couldn't take it away from him.

and

IA:

And l~ts of experience.

Garcia:

And you couldn't blame 'em to be the way they were because it took
them probably all their life to know what they knew.
They were not
graduates from Michigan State or, you know, it's that college town
there, agriculture college.

They were not graduates or anything.

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 10

I learned how to wire, too.

Well, that was an art and I

Some of 'em didn't even have 8th grade
wire
That's the one that put the

TIleycome up the hard way.
education and now you take Robert Webster, he what you calla
beader machine, wire beader operator.
bead in the fenders, you know,
was in that one, too.
a couple but I learned how to do it and, but it was an art.
realize that it's an art and those guys was proud because without a
mark or anything, they could wire that whole thing all the way
without any marks, I mean, just because they had, it's just like
runnin' this oil machine.
that machine went and that's the art thing you control with a foot
pedal down here so it's, you know, you couldn't, you couldn't take it
away from 'em and that man, that wire man, that's·all he done for 40
years till he retired 'cause he was a wire beader.
young man now what's a wire beader, he wouldn't know ...

They had a nice feel.

They knew how fast

I might a ruined

You ask some

You

IA:

He wouldn't know what you're talking about.

Garcia:

what you're talking about. He wouldn't even know what a machine
w.ould look like and so I, that's what happened to that one but not
because of Bob Webster.
Bob Webster was a nice old man but he got
sick on me.
never wanted to teach nobody else.

I think he had a operation and like I told you, they

IA:

They wanted to keep

•

Garcia:

And so there was no follow-up and so I got stuck into that one, too,
and I trained two.
I
had to do that
raw material, you know, not a fender or a hood
hood
opened up like that?

I trained two, three young people to do that.

the old days what they call butter

Just practice on

, you know, the

sewing machine.

has a

.

IA:

Yeah, ah, huh.

Garcia:

Yeah, well, well they got a bead on there back in them days.
they don't put it in. They made the fender, the hood top real sturdy
but we practice on metal so they could learn to do that.
art as the rest, the rest like your tool and die setup and press
adjustments and all that. That was a, it's so skilled that they had
like camera people and, well, even toggle press operator, you have to
know exactly how that metal flows or you don't make a good piece.
old
You break it.
b

So those had to be watched and learned ,C.'1i?b ~

••
I 77trs~

That was a

Now

f/

uggers

IB:

Now, you were, you were not supervisory for a few years, you know,
when you first got into the plant.

Did you join the union then?

•

Garcia:

No, I think, I think they made me
there, you had 90 days or 120, I forget what it was.

When I went in

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 11

IA:

To decide or before you had to?

Garcia:

Before you had.

IA:

Before you had to.

Garcia: Well, then I didn't know you had to.

IA:

Was it ..... check off?

Garcia: Yeah, they come over and threatened me.

or somethin' andN.Qrxo» ~\lnion. Well, I didn't like that.

They told me I had to join

GOSS ttr--e

IA:

Old they check it off?
pay anyway whether you wanted it or not?

In other words, did they take it out of your

Garcia:

Eventually.

IA:

They checked off.

Garcia:

•

I says I'm no farmer. I don't believe in anybody, but I says

But they come and asked me first and I told 'em I didn't want to be
that.
I'll do my own bargaining but it didn't work.
They, ..... then the
superintendent called me in and he says, no, you got to sign it but
you won't be long, he says, which I wasn't. You won't be long. Just
sign the paper and tell 'em to go to hell or somethin', whatever you
want.
never a union ...

I said, I already told 'em that

So I was

IB:

Not very involved or anything?

Garcia: No, no.

IB:

And then once you were supervisor it's not a problem?

Garcia: No, I was never, I was just a farmer. I didn't like anybody tellin'

me nothin' unless he knew more than I did and I didn't like that

IB:

Did you have many problems with labor?

Garcia: The union?

IB:

Unions after you became supervisor, not in the personal level but, I
mean, did you have ...

Garcia: Oh, yeah.

They wrote me up.

I had a grievance against me ....

threaten this and threaten that. But I got ways, I had ways of, I
had one guy, you know, I got away with some stuff

he gave

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1·28·92
Page 12

he'd just been elected into

me, gave me a rough time and I caught him in a corner and he was a
steward
think of his name now.
he
was hot to show the people what a steward he was gonna be and all
that good stuff and finally I got him, I says, you don't know",-~.6.o..lflLA......"
I said, I don't know you too well, I said, but
He says, not really.
I'll tell ya one thing, I'm gonna eliminate you and I says, I belong
to the Mexican Mafia.

I'll think of it. Anyway,............

can't even

'7

IB:

IA:

Oh, no.

You really mean eliminate.

Garcia:

Yes, and I said, without nobody ever known, you're gonna be
eliminated.

IB:

Ooooh.

Garcia:, Unless you straighten up.

IB:

And he was scared, right?

Garcia:

IA:

IB:

Garcia:

IA:

Do you believe that.
hour and pretty soon everybo~:5'!l:lV.hl."Y(;. and he never came back.

I don't know, I ~hink he thought it over for an

f~a l,,f (;/o/7/s cJ' /tJ/l/e1f P/l..I"j.

Oh, my.

Oh, for heavens sake.

got rid of a steward.

While you're speaking of steward, that makes me think maybe I can
just ask you a quick question.
Is it, from steward what does it go to, the chain of command, so to
speak?

What is the structure in the shop?

Garcia:

Well, usually it's a steward, then a committeeman, then a
committeeman at large, then, well, depends, for our company, just had
I think steward, committeeman, committeeman at large, then they went
to the /president.

IA:

Of the local?

Garcia:

Yeah, the local.

IA:

IB:

•

Of the local.

That was where they could have redress for problems, they could go to
one person and then ...

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 13

IA:

Up the line.

Garcia:

The steward is more like an overseer

They didn't call the committeeman until it was

Yeah, if they didn't call, the steward is the one that give you the
most headaches.
gonna, was going to negotiate or some move, some big drastic move
beyond the steward's control.
around, but they get big headed some of 'em because they're radicals.
I always called 'em radicals and they, so you, usually if·they got
too radical, I get the committeeman.
one, I eliminated some way or other but if he's a regular, good
worker who been there a good long time, I mean, and he just got a
little bit out of control and I'd go to committeeman and say, you
straighten that guy and I says, if you don't, I.will, you know.
I mean, they're not that, it's just if you get some new
can be done.
ones and then they think, the committeemens usually are pretty decent
and so is, the president is usually a ...

But if it's a new one like that

It

IA:

So is the committeeman a worker, too, or not?

Garcia:

Yeah.

IA:

He is, too?

Garcia:

To a certain, they got a, well, it depends on the contract, the way
they

The steward has got to work all the time.

IA:

Yeah, I know.

Garcia:

The committeeman, I think, in hours, I think, they had to work at
least four hours.
worked.

The president don't, but our president always

IA:

Really?

Garcia:

Yeah, Ray, Ray, Ray, where' s , hey, Glen, where are you.
gosh, you know, he's a nice guy.
can't remember his last but he always
committeeman, committeeman at large, usually they got all day.
just sit in the office

I know his name is Raymond.

Ray

He

and the

,

I

They

IA:

And be a bureaucrat.

Garcia:

But I
I had control:[.1ot.4101JJ.ttf1IJ.c until some

Yeah, but I think our committeeman was four hours
have,
new ones start comin' up but mostly
'cause I knew just how to handle 'em. You have to know how to handle
'em. You can't, but you can get in an awful mess with them.
spend ..... time right in the first division and there's a big
division, see, and then,lii£. .i.r;Y'. ~A:/.(l.{J.lI6-R.~l1It: .. dinner, or lunch
I mean, each division was like a neighbor, you know, and then all

nice relation

So I

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1..28..92
Page 14

neighbors were always together but you had a, you had a awful big
family relation in there. Person who got hurt or got sick, everybody
was concerned.

IA:

In your group?

Garcia:

In the group and then the other ones find out about it and they check
it out and see how everybody's comin'.
family. That's why it was hard to break up and even now, you know,
they still stick together.

It became, REO was a real

/

IA:

Now, did you stay through to the end, too, 1ike Glen did?

Garcia: Yeah, I
:J FOI?Ge7.

. .!ItF-. dds

19.... What was it, April the 4th,

.

when we walked out. Well, when they closed the

doors. We didn't walk out.

IA:

Yeah, yeah.

Garcia: Yeah,

•

IA:

Garcia:

And what was your last position there? Were you still doing the
supervisor ...

I still superintendent but, yeah, the title was superintendent or
supervisor but I was a superintendent
another sign or sign Y.- .•••••.••

because they brought their own, see .

attach

t,) fu /I-~

(£ /!-ed

IA:

Oh, the new owners.

Garcia: Yeah, well, the .....

IB:

What was his name, his full name?

9arcia:

Caper

.

IB:

that's right.

Garcia:

Frank ...

IB:

Frank Cap ....

Garcia: No, no.

I got pictures

.

IB:

But he was the general manager or he was the new owner?

Garcia: He was the owner.

IB:

He was the new owner.

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 15

IA:

IS:

Garcia:

He was the one that brought

.

Kerr and Mildred Johnson was, I always call her the lieutenant.
she was a,
from Mt. Pleasant.
mother, I think she's still living, he owns that, what's the name of
that hotel downtown Clare there?

That's where he was born.

Temper..... right here

Clare, in fact his

lady under him

She,

IS:

Oh, the Dougherty.

Garcia:

Now, he owned that.

IA:

Oh, oh,the

Dougherty, yes.

Garcia: 'Mother owns that, well, his mother is, he owned but his mother is the
one that runs it or, I mean, I don't know if she's a live yet or not.

IS:

That's been in the Dougherty family for 78 years 'or something.

Garcia:

A1 Cappert .

IA:

IB:

Garcia:

A1 Cappert, he just said.

Al Cappert.

he aI;o(v~

And ah, he, he bought it but they brought their own
then he hired this Stanley Eaton and he was suppose to been the
president.
To me, he was just president in figure of speech and then
he hired all us, he hired all of us ..... but they still couldn't run
the presses without me behind it somewheres in the background so I
became attached .~LJlJ./fsign~.d... he give me a office up the front
office and anything come up, why
.............. sometime we get together lJIeJ~/J... play hardball and not
tell 'em nothing ..... but we knew it was gonna go belly up so we, I
mean, that's what it was bought for 'cause I come right out and asked
Cappert, I used to get together with him and Frances and go out
drinking, Mildred and I asked him one night, I says, Cappert, you
came in here, saw this thing bankrupt
shit me and he, no,
says, I'll stay till the end, but he told me so I knew.

but you just stay till the end.

I said, don't bull

Oh, I

.

IB:

Is he still living?

Garcia:

As far as I know he was.
have his phone number
along with him .

Glen asked me the other day but I used to
and I quit doing that but I got

•

•

•

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 16

II:

Did you?
After the , after the breakup, after the place closed, did
anybody get together again or were all of you that worked there and
were old REO employees, did you ever get together with Cappert and
his people afterwards?

Garcia:

No, I went to see him because he had always invited me, he said, you
, Mississippi, he says, Louie, the town is yours.
ever go to

IB:

Mississippi?

Garcia:

Yeah.

IB:

That's where he was ...

Garcia:

That's what he said, that's..............
building there, a house, I mean, a big building.

He's got a, he's got a

IB:

Big business enterprise?

•

Garcia:

Yeah, it's a, it's kind of a round like, he's in the center, but most
of the, if you go in there and ask for him, they'll tell you he's not
So I called him and told him that I and Gordie
there but he's there.
Jones, another 8J3.o.. t;,I1IIf!l.ay~~. go south on vacation and traveling
and he's gonna stop and see him and he says, oh, you do that and so
we did and
secretary, the main secretary he got on the front door, tell us he
wasn't there. He was in Europe.

her, I can't remember her name,

IA:

But he was there?

Garcia:

I says, ah, he's here.

For you guys he's here.

he'd been up to Lansing before

Yeah, yeah, 'cause he saw us
.......... you guys wait a minute, I got to talk to you, you know,
and she covered it up so she -took us to another room and he says, I
thought you said he was in Europe.
you guys he's here.
says, he knows you're coming up
know what season I went, we couldn't find a room, just to show you
how powerful that man is, couldn't find a room, you know, that we
wanted.
it's was alright,
little hotel room so we went over there and he says, where you guys
stayin', so we told him
no room.
they said no room there.

We found a room at some God forsaken neighborhood, you know,
people nice

He says, did you go to Magnolia, I says, yeah, hotel and

He's wai tin'.
so·we couldn't, I don't

I'll bet there will be room.

Hey, they told us there'S

we found that

Well, for

She

IB:

• Garcia:

IA:

He made a call.

He made a call. He owned the darn place.

He must have far flung businesses, then.

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 17

Garcia:

He had all of 'em in there. He, he, got us a room, I mean, I don't
mean a room.

IA:

A suite.

Garcia:

By the

Yeah, he give us a big Cadillac.

See, we went on a train. We was just

So then, ah, I thought he was kiddin'.

This was like a suite, everything, telephone in the bathroom.
time we got there, the refrigerator, probably a 19 cubic foot, big
mother, was full of Kesslers, which I like. He had all the beer that
Gordie liked and everything else we wanted was stocked before we got
there, see. He, before we got there 'cause he entertained us in his
place there and then he took us over to his house, took the car, you
know, he had a fleet of cars, so, you know, a big four door Cadillac
and we could drive around.
having a good time, me and Gordie.
Got it all fixed up, right there they got the gas pumps at the house.
He got everything there. He's got a black dude takin' care of oil
changes and everything, a mechanic and everything right there.
fixed everything.
no, you, car and I want to give you this one so you guys can use it
while you're here.
Michigan.
tickets.
but every pl~ce, we went to the Maxwell nightclub, he owns that.
It's a beautiful 'place. Then later ~n, about, I don't know, it was
the second"day, 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, he took us to another bar and
He weighed about 270,
the thing was closed and so he, he a big man.
he's an old ex-football play, you know, about 6 foot '2 or something.
He's a real big man.
He pulled back, sat back, stood back and then
he took his foot and he kicked the dQor.
gonna get in jail.
owned that, too. We went in there and he gave that help hell.
It was only, noY)quite 1IL and they had
wasn't suppose to be closed.
closed it. Suppose to be open till two, and~~jhknow,
you pick
up the phone and call and have that door fix or put together for the
night and he says, we gonna stay here until closing time and you
serve us.
place we went, he owned.

You don't have to go on the train.
I don't care, you can cancel. Yeah, we brought one back

He had those poor girls workin' and that bartender.

He said, in fact, you might even take it to

He says, how can, it's my God damn place.

I says, Cappert, we're

I says, we got

No, no,

Every

So he

He

It

IB:

Do you suppose he was able to buy into some of these new things with
some of the money he took from REO?

Garcia:

Oh, yeah, sure. He owned the airport.

IA:

Oh, my.

Garcia:

Right there in town.

IB:

In ...

Garcia:

..~

...

•

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 18

IS:

What's in, what's the town in Mississippi.

Garcia: Vestburg.

IS:

IA:

IB:

Vestburg.

Vestburg.

Vestburg.

•

Garcia: Yeah, he owned the airport. He took us right through, a tour and

everything and that time he took his limousine 'cause he got
telephones and everything in his car and we got in that one and he
took us down there and I thought he was, go right through there and
they flagged him down and he says, don't you know who this is. I own
this place.

If you want to work, you better not flag me down again.

IB:

Sounds like something out of the movies.

Garcia:

Oh, he used to be a rough talker. He was tough. I mean, I felt bad
for the people the way he talked, just because they worked for him,
you know. Well, I knew how he was 'cause I seen him over here.

IB:

He wouldn't be the person that would really have loyalty to his
employees.

Garcia: No.

I wouldn't want to work for him.

IB:

How did he treat people when he was in Lansing, like all you
supervisors and other people?

Did he kind of rough with you, too?

Garcia: Well, he, sometimes he got kind a rough and that but he used to use

Mildred.

Mildred was a wonderful ...

IB:

Oh, she had to do the dirty work.

Garcia:

She was the one who fired 'em. I was
but I knew they'd fire me just as quick as the other ones.
over there and buy 'em a cup of coffee in the morning, said, this is
the last cup of coffee I'm buyin', you're done~.~.
that to a lot of 'em.

with her, with him

.~ He done

They'd go

~~,

IB:

Oh, gosh. This is all people in supervision, you're saying?

Garcia: All the people in supervision.

IB:

And they'd have no recourse to union or anything to get ...

•

Garcia: No, they had no, besides

but that's the way they

did it.

If they had a replacement and they knew it was gonna

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 19

bankrupt, you know, they should a bankrupt with the ones that were
there. They didn't have to do it the way they did it.

I don't got

IB:

It didn't bother him then what he was doing to the employees who had
their life savings and their~pension and everything tied up?

Garcia: Uh, huh.

IB:

That had worked there for years.

Garcia:

See, that isn't the only place he's done that. He done it to a lot
right here in Michigan.

IB:

Right.
kind of thing.

That's what Glen said. He said it was his job to do that

Garcia: Yup,

I know there's a trailer home manufacturing

.

I think it was in Brighton, somewheres in there,
the street. He come in

.

right on

IB:

• Garcia:

IB:

I wonder how he sleeps?

I don't know but he's got guards all over the place.

Has he really?

Garcia: Like4-'~

guard that building where he works.

IB:

I remember talking to some visitors off and on through the years that
I was at the Museum, people who would come in, ex-REO employees a lot
and they would say, you know, express the desire that they wished
they could of throttled him, you know, shot him when they had the
chance and things like that, you know, those that lost everything.

Garcia: No, they, they, a lot of 'e~~~p~.T'm

surprised he's still

living.

£1--7

IB:

Glen said when we talked to him last week that a lot of workers
committed suicide.

Garcia: They did.

I even got

you know,

if you want

to use the word transition
expecting

what you

from the job you had and then
Like some people couldn't

.

IB:

• Garcia:

Couldn't make the same ....

I can't think of his name,
one of the mechanics, I don't remember, but he, he went to work at
In fact, well, I kind a helped him but the man
Demmers, mechanic.

mechanic that we had at REO,

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 20

The man had, I think ~.

farm ....
really didn't have to work.
equipment was $140,000 and his wife worked and if he didn't want to
work, he didn't.
But it was, he took it too hard.
that mechanic position he had at REO.
position was Just as nice.
everythin.g set up and I s.aid,oh , ~........
do now.
worked three days and he.

Fifty some year ~gu , y:oukn
...

, •. ~.-:0do.
"

He brought all of his tool box,

Okay, now this mechanic

ou'll have somethin' to

He didn't have

I think he

.

/

IB:

IA:

Oh, my.

How long had he been at REO before, his whole life?

Garcia:

Oh, years, oh, yeah, all his life.

IB:

That, it becomes your identity, though, doesn't it?

Garcia:

See, as I said, the transition is too, it's still mechanic, right?
But I guess it wasn't REO and yo~ take ah, the other guy, Tim
I have to look at my sheets
a young man, I think he was 30 something.
too
And quite a few of 'em, I think, lost it, too.
They're here but not ...

.
he got out and, you know, he's
He blew his head, brains,
quite a few suicides .
They're not here.

quick, no mess,

IB:

Never

.

Garcia:

Cap.acities, you know.

IB:

Just more than they could handle.

Garcia:

And so they'd call me.
you stand it? Aw, I live one day, have good time, go out and drink,
chase women.

Quite a few of 'em would call me.

Louie, how

IB:

..............wife

Garcia:

and, no, I mean, I wasn't gonna

Well, she knows it
set there and worry because I had already, well, that's, I had
already went to work for John Demmer so, 'cause he told me, when, you
............ and I sent my resume
I say, I'll stay
in Lansing so I got his card and he had my card .......•... and he
says, don't forget to call me when you're ready 'cause I went to
Mexico to vacation.
but when I come back,
geez, these guys was callin' me.

but

I

IB:

Well, he knew a good man when he saw one.
keep track of people that you know are ...

You know, you're gonna

IA:

Yeah.

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 21

Garcia: And then they want to know, how

thought, you know, I was gonna just mope around. No
good time. If... .... work
I won't have to.
........... make me think that's all there is in life?
spent, you know, you might as well say you spent two-thirds of your
life there, I mean, because, you know, works where you live. You
know, you go home for the other third and that's about it. I mean,
time, you never home. You're at work.
if you

Sure, we

I says,

.

how you take this. They
.

IB:

Maybe some of those other people didn't have a family though. Maybe
the REO was their life. On the outside, maybe they didn't have as
much to fall back on.

Garcia: Yeah , maybe that's true, too. Maybe the.y!~en'

t quite as attached

'a..t:? &:~

different

kil~.

leave the kids,
kill myself.

But

especially my girl. They'd kill me before I co~
ah, they took it awful hard and still right now, when we get
together, especially on the

.

IB:

In August?

Garcia: Yeah, they get in a corner sometimes and they start talkin'. You

know, they still can't get over it and it's, I don't know, I only,
it's the only time think of it when I talk about it.

IB:

Yell, we're glad that you.

Garcia: And mostly, usually, I remember, I remembering the things I did, the

things I went through, things I learned the hard way, you know, and
also the fun parts, you know, you remember those. Just to reminisce
about 'em but not to say, geez, it was
know, you got to ...

you

IB:

Kind of like another life almost.

Garcia:

It's another life. It is. You got to go out and see what the rest
looks like.

IA:

You participated in the supervisor's group.

I forget what ...

Garcia:

The Steering Gear Club?

IA:

The what?

Garcia:

Steering Gear Club.

IA:

IB:

•

Yeah, the Steering Gear Club.

Steering Gear Club.

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 22

Garcia:

I went to the

and became presiden~ of that, too.

IA:

Oh, you did?

Garcia:

Went to the
that.

Industrial Club of Lansing and became president of

IA:

The Industrial Club of Lansing?

Garcia:

Yeah, that was, that represented all of the industrial ....

IA:

IS:

Garcia:

Right, right.

Oh, I haven't heard of that one.

From all the different factories?

All the different factories and manufacturing~
where there
was an industrial club which was affiliated witt the YMCA, I went, I
Then I went to the
sat on the board of directors of that for years.
..... and then one day they told me, you want to run for president?
Well, I might as well, I run for everything else so I was president
for one year.
'75 ...

In fact, the year I was president, I think it was

IA:

Oh, the same year that REO went .....

Garcia:

Yeah, so I gaveot!~tiZ.~~

~-??U'

IA:

Oh, I see.

Garcia:

And I said, like I was president out at Demmers and I think I signed,
I don't know how many 25 year certificates
industrial areas.
the club and the REO Motors, I forget what year I was president of
that.
.
and all this.

for working in
My name's on there 'cause I was the president of

I think it was in, well, those guys told me, yeah,

IA:

They were the ones that made you the president.

Garcia:

Yeah, well ,they voted ...

IA:

IS:

They voted for you.

They wanted to keep you out of trouble.

Then they don't have to do~.

~

,

Garcia:

There was two or three runnin' and I said, I'll never make it and
these guys says, yes you will.

IS:

They got their Mafia.

Garcia:

Yeah, they got their own ...

•

·Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 23

IB:

Industrial Mafia.

Garcia:

and

yeah, so they had me in there.
Every, every year they had a new president, see, and it's quite an
honor because you get the, you already know it, in my case, I already
knew the club 'cause I was a board of director for years so I knew
how the club functioned but when you become president, then every, I
mean, function the president does of the company, you're with him
because you're the president of the, of the organization that he
backs up which is his supervision, his management team, you know, so
you function with him and the vice presidents and it's quite an honor
for that year.
got along with, well, I got along with all the presidents but I got
,
along with
you know,
he really, he used to get me involved, especially if
he had a few drinks, you'd better get up.

And at that time, Jack Adams was the president and

come here, I want you to say

IB:

What was his last name?

Garcia:

Adams, Jack Adams.

IB:

Oh, Adams, thank you.

Garcia:

I think he's in Washington, D.C.
or not.
was here so him and John
nice person.

Oh, they all were except~appert~

He came down one time, over Demmer Corporation and he knew I
he was a

me 'up. But he

I don't know whether he's retired

IB:

The last one, yeah.

Garcia:

The last one.

IB:

And going to that club was very important for fostering that, well,
you were all talking about that at the lunch, too.
important club.

That was an

Garcia:

Yeah, it was because it kept the unity and it kept, like for
instance, you and I got fight over somethin' and you
with the line, you know, and
'cause you slow my production and you thought you was gaining your
production so you go over there and drink a few drinks and forget
about it. Tomorrow be another day which is, they had, and it was all
furnished by the company, I mean, of course, they had a bar, a
regular bartender there, you know.

get in a hell of a argument

wrong

IA:

IB:

This was at the club.

At the clubhouse?

•

•

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 24

Garcia: The clubhouse, yeah. We had it reserved just for the Steering Gear.

They call it the Steering Gear room for them.
there, they had a big steering gear in the middle,hanging
headlight, not a headlight, it's a lamp, a chandelier like.

If you ever went up

as a

IB:

I wonder where that was put after the place was torn down?

Garcia:

Somebody's got it. Somebody's got it. Maybe .... knows.

IA:

Where it is?

Garcia: Yeah.

IS:

Do they really? Check up when we go in there.

Garcia: Yeah, that's a beautiful gear and that was in the middle and then in

the corner we have bar and that's where the bartender, and of)course,
we ~;~~ to VOlunt.eer.
'.:r~ytime

I used,to,be good at that.
so ~

I went back and

k- bartender.

~~'

IB:

But this was upstairs in the clubhouse?

•

Garcia: Huh?

IS:

This was upstairs .

Garcia: Upstairs, yeah. A big room. We had T.V.s there so you could sit in
one corner and watch your program, a lot of the things, you know, we
wasn't kiddin' when we bring some of them dancing girls in there.

IA:

IB:

IA:

No, I didn't, I didn't think you were kidding.

Gee, I did.

No, I didn't.

Garcia:

In fact,
armed bandit till they clamped down on us.

time when you had, I forget, we had the one

IA:

Oh , the gambling.

Garcia: Yeah.

IB:

Like with the oranges, lemons, and things.

I

Garcia: Yeah.

• IB:

Garcia:

Like you see in Las Vegas.

I don't know where they went but they was up there.

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 25

IS:

Is that right.

Garcia: Yeah, but they made weld, they made us weld ..... just keep ,em

for ...

IS:

For show.

Garcia: Yeah, show, whatever.

IA:

or whatever.

Garcia:

Somebody go those.

IA:

IS:

Slot machines, that's what they're called.

Yeah.

Garcia: Yeah, I can't remember, one armed bandits.

IS:

That's all I could think of.

Garcia:

Slot machines, yeah, they ah, I can't remember what year that was,
yeah, because it used to be all the dignitaries in Lansing used to
come up and see us.
the, for us for PR
chief of police come up and they
Somebody

It was a good PR, you know, it wasn't just for

but you know, you had the mayor, the

State Police

found out.

.

IS:

I think the chief of police

Garcia:

State Police,

.

IS:

IA:

IS:

But; this did add to a community ...

Feeling.

Feelings, where the REO reached out to the community.
other things, besides the fun, I wonder what other things REO might
have done for the community, for the City of Lansing.

I wonder what

Garcia: Oh, they done a lot of things. They done, helped the Soy Scout, Soy

Scout, Girls, I mean, not

.

IS:

Girl Scouts.

Garcia: Girl Scout girls and the boys, they done a lot 'cause I was a boy

scout leader for a while and I could get, I could get a lot of things
just because REO said, yeah, go ahead, you know, take this, take that
and we'll pay for it.

•

•

•

•

•

!.auis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 26

II:

Things for handcrafts and that sort of thing?

Garcia:

Urn, hum, or for trip.

IS:

Oh, for trips.

Garcia:

IB:

Garcia:

They'd furnish the milk and the cookies and the whatever, the donut
'cause I was, when I was, I didn't have no problem.
there and they give it to me.

I just go up

In fact, I think he used to come to

Now, across the street, a Quality Dairy, the one across the street,
so he was well known amongst us.
the club, too, after he closed up so, I mean, we could get in and
they had the accounts.
just went and got the stuff and put it on, and give it to the kids or
also we'd have a small ballroom, we'd have the Boy Scouts and Girl
Scouts certain nights and we, maybe they'd show a movie, a
educational movie, you know, and then they also treated 'em to pops
and everything, you know, kids go for that.
meeting for anything like that.

I don't know how they settled it though.

So they done a lot of that ...

They would attend a

We

IA:

They were the kids of the employees, a lot of them?

Garcia:

Yeah, a lot of employees and also neighborhood kids.

IA:

IB:

Garcia:

IA:

.,

Garcia:

Neighborhood.

And whatever cub scout....... girl scout

.

Like in my case, I probably had anywheres from 15 to 30 depending on
what year ..... kids .... be there and they weren't, probably two-
thirds of 'em weren't even ...

REO kids .

REO kids but they're from the area.
there was ..... blood cross, for the Red Cross, they always ....•

So that they done and then ah,

IB:

Oh, the blood drive.

Garcia:

Yeah, we used to always have, and perform it right there.
small ballroom, set up the tables, our tables and bring 'em in there
and donate blood.
Thanksgiving, they donate, including the employees, not just REO
'cause they go and say, you know, we gonna make a charitable drive,
anybody want to donate turkeys and, you know, then they'd buy so many
turkeys and then take it to these poor families.
They make a list.
In fact, like they call me, say, Louie, you know any poor families.

There's another, no, they, charity things like

They use a

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 27

..•.......by people you know
well, I got a neighbor three doors down.
he ain't gonna have a good Christmas, good Thanksgiving.
lot of that, too.
I got involved 'cause I used to get involved
probably shouldn't a, I was runnin' milk, de1iverin' milk, all'that
good stuff

He ain't been working and
We done a

No, there's a lot of things that, you know, I know

social, REO was good for the city.

word by mouth and say, yeah,

which I

IA:

Yeah, I've read all about that kind of stuff, all the way from the
very beginning, in fact, it was always doing things like that for the
community.

Garcia:

Oh, the community, the schools, the churches, they did help
everybody
somebody at REO that worked there, too, you know, that belonged to
that and they knew about it so they got stuck on the committee and ...

come in there and invariably be

somebody

IB:

I know in the early days according to what I've read that R.E. and
his family were very civic minded so maybe that feeling just kind of
c.e

on down through the years.

Garcia:

It's the same culture in the other divisions.

Like I say, that family, the family never lost its culture, the Reo
family, whenever it started and that's before my time but whenever it
started, that culture carried down and there wasn't,
sometimes a newcomer and I says, you see this culture in this
division.
So if
little different but the culture, the main culture is there.
you get transferred from here to here, don't ever feel uncomfortable
because you're not gonna lose, this ~
another one
because sometime people have a fear of gettin' transterred, you know,
'..• " '1)' operate in .....• 'cause they don't know about those people
".
over ~r

Might be a

you gonna~

.

IB:

I know these people.

I'm comfortable here.

Garcia:

I know I

REO, you could, could ask any of 'em,

used to this group but the
See, and no matter where they

Yeah, and REO wasn't that way.
..................... really
culture will be the same over there.
moved to.
years, I used to
I'd move out
...... I think, I think though that group is
few.
together with, if you talk to 'em, you know there was a
created so that they couldn't get along with this division and the
because we knew, we
other.

the company, especially in the last
'cause they give me a special assignments and

I think if you talk to all, especially the ones we have lunch

I know I felt it but it was hard

boy, this family

a few, a

Cappert

.

IA:

It was because of him.

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 28

Garcia:

Just slide that stuff off and still do our, you know, go our way but
it did create friction.

IB:

I'd like to ask you a couple questions, too. What accomplishments
were significant in your career?
What do you think happened while
you were there that, might not have happened if you weren't there.
Or what important things did you see happen during your time, your
years at the shop?

Garcia:

In manufacturing, you mean?

IB:

I think I'm thinking of manufacturing but I'm also thinking of the
human side of it, you know, but manufacturing is .....

Garcia:

Well, yeah, when you take manufacturing, REO as a whole, a great
contributing factor in the military which we needed at the time from
World War II and through the Korean and into Vietnam and we came in
with some different design trucks, design motors and one of 'em was
the multi-fuel engine, which you never read probably too much about
it.

IA:

IB:

No.

The what engine?

Garcia:

The multi-fuel.

IA:

IB:

Garcia:

Multi-fuel.

Oh, multi-fuel, oh, yeah.

No, what was that?

That's a engine that was helped developed with the government
research and REO engineers that will burn anything that liquifies,
you know.

IB:

Oh, wow.

Garcia:

If you, like if you melt butter, they'll burn it, it'll run.

IB:

IA:

Garcia:

For goodness sake.

So you could be in the middle of nowhere ...

Yeah, so, yeah, so if you melt it down or liquify it someway or other
with heat, grease, and they had quite a demonstration.
Of course, it
was, I don't think it was ever opened to the public but it was a
pretty good size V8 motor which is now applied in some vehicles,
somewhere.
I never followed it up but that patent went out and
.............. this is extreme cases because they
demonstrated with different types of oils like lard and

I seen it
.

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 29

IB:

Cooking oils?

Garcia:

Cooking oils but, you know, you have to warm it up to run ..... cases
like extreme emergency, you know you can do it to keep going but it
burned different gases like kerosenes and stuff like that was already
liquid but it was, it's really, they have a machine that told you
......... because now this fuel is burnin' or that fuel was burnin'
and

machine.

IA:

Was there, there were big contracts for those, for Korea and Vietnam
through the government?

Garcia:

Yeah.

IA:

I was not aware of that.

I knew about World War II.

Garcia:

There was, yeah, there was some
time, we was making trucks for them.

for us then we at that

IA:

Oh, 'okay.

Garcia:

Yeah, but for us, and then I think eventually they started making
trucks for 'em.

IB:

For the Army, for the military.

Garcia:

In Korea, yeah, and also for the other that fought with, you know,
with, on our side but that was, that was somethin' that was never
wrote up too much.

IA:

IB:

No, it really hasn't been.

That's interesting. That would be an interesting ...

Garcia:

Yeah, it's a multi-fuel and any kind of fuel that would burn and ...

IB:

Did you ever get anybody, any military person that came back and said
we use these.

They really work?

Garcia:

No, the only thing is I happened to read it in a magazine that they
were using it and I said, oh, I know of that, you know, but that's
the only thing that I saw a change outside early improves that they
make in their vehicles that also incorporated in the cars, you know,
because the engineers at REO were always developing something, you
know, the research and development employees, they was always
workin' .

IB:

Yeah, that's what Glen said, too.

•

•

•

Louis Garci.a
1-28-92
Page 30

IA:

He said if somebody needed something special, then the REO people
would work on it.

Garcia:

Work on it, yeah, if the government
we work on it, you know,
we developed it and then it went out and there's a lot of things that
never got leaked out but I don't know how you'd ever find it but
there was a lot of things developed in there.

IB:

I'm thinking about; two of the lawn mowers after the War, they went
into lawn mower production, too, didn't they?

Garcia:

Yeah.

IB:

Garcia:

But there were lawn mowers even back before that which surprised me.
A power lawn mower, we've got one at the Museum that's quite old and
it's a REO.
'Wheredid they, that makes me think too, where did they
test drive their cars and their trucks, their lawn mowers, you don't
test drive a lawn mower but I mean test it ...

The lawn mower was tested right down there by the corner of
Washington and Baker and there's a cellar, a basement in thatj
building and that's where they tested the motors for so many hours
and that's about all you need tested and up on top, that's where you,
where you assemble 'em and they come out either as REO or the blade
type, or, let's see, the REO, the blade, I thought there was another
one

'cause we made snowblowers, too.

•

IB:

That's right.

I'd forgotten that.

Garcia:

In fact, I curled, we had a machine that curled
our own but we done just about the whole

We made snowblo",r~
that blade and~.~
thing and we ~~ ..~/'"our own blades for the lawn mowers.
everything right there. That was, that was from the corner of Baker
and Washington to the next, well, you don't want to say building but
the next room.
things,
blades and the only
thing we purchased was the rubber wheels 'cause we made the wheels,
~..
but the rest was all manufactured there until we sold 'em.

That's where they done the heat treating for those

purchase the chain and a few other things

and the whol.e thing

quite a few~

We done

~

IB:

'Where did they take the trucks out, like the Army truck they'd take
'em. Now, did they take them out somewhere and try them on a track
or ...

Garcia:

Yeah, they had a, they had a grounds, I don't remember where they
were.

IB:

Testing grounds?

•

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 31

Garcia: Yeah, they got testing grounds out here somewheres. You have to ask

somebody

where it's at.

IB:

I hadn't, I'd never thought about that before till last week, Glen
said something about testing something and then I got to wondering ...

Garcia: Yeah, they had, they had a grounds to go and the Army, of course,

tested, took them to, I think, Abilene and done their own testing.

IB:

Oh, okay.

Garcia: But there are tracks for testing but I forget where the proving

ground were but they have 'em. You'd have to, I never paid too much
attention

.

IA:

You didn't, yeah, it was outside

.

Garcia:

It's the same truck (end side 1) lawnmower and

But I know the other ones were tested at Abilene which they still do
'cause that same truck now is manufactured in Williamston and ah, at
Capital Tool and Die.
then the engine which Glen, remember 'cause he was
engine test room for the big engines and they run 'em for hours
before they mounted 'em on a vehicle, the V8s, the diesels, the whole
thing, you know.
what they
But we used to make the V8 block
call the ~
one of the best six cylinder motors made.

engine 6, which is still up to this day probably

the

IB:

Is that right?

Garcia:

I think

we called the~.~

...

IA:

In the real old days, they just used to drive the cars around town.

Garcia: Yeah.

IA:

They didn't do anything real special with them.
town then they were okay.

If they went around

Garcia: Right, if they went around a circle ...

IA:

IB:

IA:

Right.

It's interesting to think over time from the first way of delivering
a car to the buyer and he had to pay for it before he got it and then
delivering on a two-track road from here to Chicago or whatever ...

Like
dad used to deliver the cars .

told us his dad used to deliver. That's what he said his

Garcia: Yeah?

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 32

IA:

IB:

IA:

In the old days.

changes.

To the dealers, that was his job, yeah.

Garcia:

That'd been nice.

I think I would

to the dealers.

IA:

IB:

Yeah, he drove 'em.

And we touched upon the fact that when you bought a car in the early
days, to buy, it might not work when you got it. Maybe, if you had
to reorder a part, it wouldn't fit perhaps and you'd have to fix it
so it would fit"'your car.
you know, you might need

They sold two boxes with your car so that,

Garcia:

And the parts, well, the cars were so much custom made, a lot of 'em
special designed and sometimes it didn't fit so you got, have to end
up doing it butah,

the REO truck was a custom made truck anyway.

IS:

Was it?

Garcia:

Yeah, most all of
, I think we made more special trucks than
anything else because ah, see ah, what's the name of that actor, the
cowboy?

IB:

Dale Robertson?

Garcia:

Dale Robertson.

IA:

IB:

How'd you know that?

'Cause I think I know what he's gonna say, the things for his horses?

Garcia:

Yeah, he bought the big truck
while we was makin' the cab for him.

especially, he lived there

IB:

Oh, did he?

Garcia:

Because he wanted instead of, I thing we was makin' 22 ga~ge or 20
gauge, he wanted 18 gauge material so he come and talk to me and he
says, ah, Louie, he says, will your dies take 18 gauge?
yeah, I think it will take 16 if you have to, just open up certain
sections ~.
material but I says, with 18 gauge, there'd be no
problem.

I says,

IB:

Now, that's heavier metal?

Garcia:

Yeah, heavier, 'cause, you know, the lower the gauge the higher the,
the thicker ...

•

•

•

Leud s Garcia
1-28-92
Page 33

IB:

The thickness of the metal.

Garcia:

And most of it's 20 gauge, for the cab he wanted, and then he had
his, I forget how many trucks there was now, you follow 'em all
through, he stayed right here and then he had the inside, I don't
know whether it was gold plated or what but they had it all plated
with gold, you know.

IB:

Oh, is that right?

Garcia:

Yeah, they beautiful trucks when they got done.

IB:

They were to haul his horses weren't they?

Garcia:

To haul his horses.

IB:

He owns, owned a big ranch in Oklahoma.

Garcia:

I understand some, I read somewhere not too long ago, maybe a year or
so ago that he still got that fleet.

IB:

IA:

Is that right?

They still work, huh?

Garcia:

Oh, yeah, well ...

IB:

Right, wouldn't that be interesting to ...

Garcia:

you see a lot of 'em on the road, the old, then at one time Pepsi
Cola's men come in here and they changed 20. Now, they had, they had
the old trucks, the bodies were all, you know, going but they wanted
the same body so we had to reset all them all tools to run the same
body to make the ...

IA:

Make the same ones, yeah.

Garcia:

to make the same, to make the fleet look the same with the .... signs
on the front and all that.

IB:

On the front of the cab itself or the horses ...

Garcia:

The hood, hood.

IA:

IB:

The hood.

Oh, the hood, I'm sorry .

Garcia:

it's called and the cab was, they called it the R(?)

cab, the R cab and then they had

raise it up, you know,

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 34

................ wanted the same design. I remember that 'cause I
was one

.

IB:

I wonder how much he paid for just one of those vehicles.

Garcia: I don't remember. It's pretty good money.

IB:

I thought he was the cutest thing so I'm .....

Garcia: Oh, he was a nice guy.

IB:

Was he nice to deal with?

Garcia: Oh, yes, a prince .

.IB:

I loved his accent.

IA:

IB:

I know.

I know. You ought to see some of his old movies.

Garcia: They say h~, no he said it, not they, Corey, Sam Corey and those guys

are cousins or distant cousins of, closed doors, that's where we
drank whiskey at night with him, on the corner of Baker and Cedar.

IB:

Oh, that little bar that was there?

Garcia: Yeah, well, it's still there but it's...

IB:

Is it still there, Corey's is still there?

Garcia: Yeah, but it's under another name.

IB:

Oh, yeah, okay, before that it was something else.

Garcia: Rinego1d's.

IB:

Yeah, that's it. Rinegold, yes.

Garcia: Yeah, that's before my time but

IB:

Yes, okay, mine, too, I read it somewhere. No actually, my aunt
lived around the corner in a tiny little house ..... Depression Days.

Garcia: Well, Rinegold, Elizabeth, Elizabeth, what was his name?

IA:

Dale Robertson?

Garcia: No, the Elizabeth was the owner.

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 35

IA:

Oh, of Corey's?

Garcia:

Rinegold and I can't think what his name was.
I
younger days but then Corey's bought it and then I
found out when Dale came in, I call him Dale like I know him ...

I used to go there and

IS:

Well, really, you got to know him.

Garcia:

Yeah, I got to know him.

Yeah, he come in and ...

IS:

He's probably ...

Garcia:

he found out that was relation so he was staying, I think, it was
J.C7~.
down

lived out this way, up on Waverly, Waverly, yeah, right

.

IB:

Down by the river.

Garcia:

Yeah.

IB:

On this side, um, hum .

Garcia:

Yeah, so then, so he said, Louie, we'll be over there, you know him?
Oh, yeah, used to drink with a bunch in Corey's so he says, well,
just knock at the door and
want people here

don't have to discuss
.

that's where he'd hide

don't

•

IB:

Yeah, he wouldn't a had any privacy.

.~4ItL~

Garcia:

Yeah, then from there, I don't know how, 'cause he always dressed
with his cowboy hat and ...

IB:

I've got a snapshot of him.

I should bring it and show it to you.

Garcia:

Yeah, I liked Dale.

IB:

He's coming out of Archie Tarpoff's when that used to be the in place
to go in downtown Lansing and he'd been there for a luncheon or
dinner or something, maybe one of those public affairs he didn't like
too well but he was coming out of there and I have a snapshot of him
and he's got his hat on.

Garcia:

Yeah, I'd like to see that.

IB:

Okay.

Garcia:

•

Yeah, I'd like to see that 'cause he, I never took, I could a took,
he told me
him quite a bit.
He's smart.

He was pretty, you know, he's not just an actor.
He, and I never did ask him, I don't know ,maybe he's

I wish now I had a 'cause I got to talk to

•

•

Louis Garcia
1~28~92
Page 36

got mechanical engineering.
I mean, he wasn't gonna, when you start talkin'
anything, that means you know something about it. You know, it isn't
just a, you know, let m.e see, let me see, you know, he was tellin' me
what he .wanted and how he wanted it.

He knew everything about those vehicles.
part of a, of

IB:

You kind a learned everything as you came up through the ranks,
didn't you.
but basically ...

I mean, you had the training in Seattle where you worked

Garcia:

Yeah, had some in Seattle.

IB:

you learned everything else on the job.

Garcia:

Most of it is learning on the job.

IA:

You mentioned there was some kind of Journeymen's ...

Garcia:

Oh, yeah
to, the
management courses.

journeyman, tool and diemaker and then REO sent us

own school

and I think

.

IA:

Well, REO was the one that sponsored you to do that?

Garcia:

Ye.ah, they brought professors from Northwestern and Michigan State
and then I was sent to Michigan State for several short seminar
courses, too, you know, 20 weeks.

IA:

In engineering school?

Garcia:

engineer, yeah, blueprint reading and
Yeah, blueprinting,
whatever that I thought you need, you know, you think you need, you
better
yourself or learn a little more because it helps, you
know, get, get quicker visualization of what you want to do than to
try to figure it out.
little training it helps you visualize it.

Then you lose the time where if you got a

IA:

And, and REO the company helped you take those?

Garcia:

Um, hum, it was only $2 a ...

IA:

A credit.

Garcia:

at that time, yes, something like that ....

Imagine ...

But it's hard to work and go to school.

IB :

IA:

•

•

•

LQuisGarcia
1..28-92
Page 37

Garcia:

Oh, yeah, I used to have to sacrifice, say like between eight and ten
or something in the evening which was no problem but I used to
sacrifice, was a really, didn't bother me, I just stay home and argue
with my wife and kids, see.

Change of climate.

IB:

What about the, the below supervision, the regular worker, were they
ever offered any opportunities to take courses ...

Garcia:

Yeah, they had apprentice courses like electrical courses,
electrician and then plumbing and tool and diemaker courses, actually
was the thing, and you also had to train for machinist so those
people got a chance, too, if they, they made a chance for them to go
get into salary position because that's how you start and then they,
but, you know,
put you in this because you Joe Blow.
thing, qualifications to get in and then once you got in, you better
stay with it. No, they had, they trained
Use, you could
see a lot of 'em yet, alive, that are in their 60s plus that went
through the journeyman schools.

and get good marks, they wasn't just gonna

No, you had a had a certain

18:

Where were those held, there on the ...

Garcia:

On the job and also a training session could fit in a small room or
REO, we could also hold 'em in the clubhouse.

IB:

But in the, on the REO grounds?

Garcia:

On the premises, yes.

IB:

REO campus.

Garcia:

Then they, at that time LCC was still .... small but they'd send you
maybe for a class or two down there and most of the time, they .....
.
bring some professor in, he probably lived here.
whether he lived in town and stayed
Northwestern up here.
just come from down here.

and other courses like they
I never checked
basically came from
Michigan State was no problem because they

and the~ourses

IA:

And they had a pretty big engineering even back then.

Garcia:

Um, hum.

IA:

Technical divisions.

Garcia:

•

Yeah, right, and no, they, ~
I mean, I learned a lot. Of course, I always wanted to learn so I
didn't car'e what it was.
I don't care if it's finances or machine
tooling or whatever.

I, if they give me a chance I was there.

to me, it was a good training place.

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 38

IB:

How did you see the plant atmosphere changing over, oh, from the time
you started till the time you, like the working conditions say from
the time you hired in till ...

Garcia:

How I see it?

IB:

Um, hum, the change in working conditions.

Garcia:

Like when I first went in
Well, this

You saw it, you didn't see it too fast.
there, we had these people, the job security attitude.
new regime like in my time came in and we weren't that way, you know.
Most of 'em were veterans or out of college, the ones that couldn't
go to Army for some reason or other and they had a different
attitude, you know, so 'this, this gang started sticking together and
trying to,
learn from them and don't bother 'em because otherwise it's agitation
and you ain't gonna do nothing.
So it started changing and then from
that era come in, then you got another era that come in there with
more like crazy time people ...

he says, just leave 'em alone and just

IB:

The '60s?

•

Garcia:

Yeah.

IB:

In the '60s?

Garcia:

down

And they was smokin' mar1Juana and they started gettin' into LSD and
that started
we had people in my age start doin'
the same thing that these guys did or these women and I never got
into any of it. They come over and I, get out of here with that
junk.
so then you see that change, then you come in and then after that
then you got the Vietnam era.
oh, 15 years a different group changing but you don't have to change
with 'em but that's what comes in and that's what you got to work
with.

I have enough time with 85 proof let alone that stuff, I said,

Every, every era it seemed like about,

IB:

There was an attitude change.

Garcia:

•

It's an attitude.

It's a little bit of everything and if

Um, hum.
you a supervisor like I was, you saw this and you got to cope with
this. Then you got the little butterfly people, you know, you don't
I mean, then they start comin' in. They
know whether women or men.
swing both ways, you know, their wings, well, you come in there and
you got that to put up.
I mean, you have
to take 'em whether you want to or not.
........ they come in there and I could tell right away, you know,
that the guy was this way or that way so, where you'd work
.
where'd you work first, where'd you work ..... here.
work

So I knew him so I called

Now, it's pretty strong.

It used to be that you,

He says, I was

Products.

~roducts and I

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 39

went to another rOODl. See that was, they'd interview for the
personnel and then I'd interviews
What's he doin' down there?
want one of those, you can have him
thought so
your people

what about this guy.
Well, Louie, if you
that's what I
he says a good worker but he says, maybe

see, that's why we let him go

He wants a job.

.

IA:

Yeah, they wouldn't like to work with him.

Garcia:

right now, he says, 'cause

eventually was gonna

have to, he says, right now, if you don't think so don't.
in there and I explained to him, I said, God, you know, I just
checked your position and it got filled about 12 hours ago.
out of that one.

I got

So I went

IA:

Garcia:

•

But, you know, when I've done work on the early, early years, even
before .... people still around, the ethnic background of the workers
was very homogeneous.
farm background, Protestants and then over time, you know, all
different types of people began to come.

Everybody was from the same, white, Anglo,

Yup, well, see we got that, I think we got that more probably in the,
'65, '70s. It was late, we got a lot of 'em and then besides gettin'
Orientals.
industrial work but I'm not talking about these new
those first ones that come in, I used to call 'em boat people

Some of them are hard to deal with, especially in the'

.

.

IA:

Oh , the

for Laos?

Garcia:

Yeah,

.

IB:

Boat people, you were saying?

Garcia:

Yeah, and they weren't quite adaptable to that work but you still had
to take " em because, you know, you were suppose to take so many .....

IA:

IB:

Garcia:

But they were from more, different backgrounds

But they'd never been near machines ...

They wanted do it their way and it was quite a

Yeah, different background and they couldn't understand why you did
it this way.
challenge in that, too, and when the migratory workers come in, that
was, that was a little tough, too, because they were not used to the
industrial.
'em. They were agriculturalists, what they were.

Most of 'em were tomato pickers, what you want to call

IA:

Right.

•

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 40

Garcia:

I can, I said, but it's gonna take

So to convert 'em to that, they have a fear because, they showed a
fear 'cause th:eyused to tell me, you think we can handle that, two,
three guys there
time because they can't adjust to this.
thing runs
bedbugs, whatever, them things down there, he says, that's a
different field for 'em so I'm gonna have to take the time if you
want to keep 'em, which we had to, I mean, they, they just, just a
plain pedestal grinder, if I put a person there to grind and all he
ever done was farm fruits or you know, whatever, tomatoes, he was
afraid of that wheel turnin' and him puttin' that thing against it.

he, all he sees is caterpillars and

That machine moves, that

IA:

And when did they start to come in more?

Garcia:

Once in a while you saw one because they stayed

They, more, a lot of them start comin' in about the 60s, right after
the, some of them were veterans and now they knew they could go out
of the field, you know, but before that, say in the '40s, '50s, you
never saw too many.
in the fields, stayed wherever they was used to working but when they
come back as veterans, then they knew they could go some place else'
and they'd go try it but they still had a fear.
changed because that generation has got kids and those kids go to
school so they got a different deal.
So you could see the change in
any, in any, and me bein' from way back to here as supervisor, .....
you can see the change from, from say about 12 years spans, this
I wouldn't say 10 but I think it's around 12.
change.

Now the air has

IA:

When you started though, there weren't very many Mexican-American
people in the plants at all.

Garcia:

No.

IA:

That wasn't a problem?

Garcia:

No, it wasn't at all.

It was not.

For who?

IA:

For you?

Garcia:

No, I didn't know anybody.

IA:

No, but I mean, they didn't give you a hard time?
difficult being

.

It wasn't

Garcia:

No.

You always find somebody who say somethin' but that's ...

IA:

Their problem.

Garcia:

That's their problem.
they're not gonna bother you.

Not only that, if you speak the language,

•

Louis Garcia
1-28~92
Page 41

IS:

Right.

Garcia:

And I, and I ...

IA:

'Cause you're educated.

Garcia:

And I would tell 'em all, especially if you guys know somethin', I'll
cut you down, I says,and
I'll interpret it quicker than you would.

you read a subject and I'll read one and

IA :

Right.

I was gonna say, you're educated and you're smart.

Garcia:

I says, I says, if you think you, if you just bein' smart, you know,
I'm not gonna tell you what, but I says, you know what it is, I says,
don't mess with me.
says, I want a person with education to mess with me.
have any problem with 'em.

I was born in Texas.

Don't mess with me.

Naw, I didn't

I

IA:

Okay.

Garcia:

I went through a lot but ah, some of 'em do but they carry a chip on
their shoulder so that means they ain't gonna get along with anybody .

IA:

Um, hum, and they'll just use that as an excuse.

Garcia:

They'll use it as a crutch

That's right.
No, I never did.
went all through the ranks and then I took officer training
school and the only reason I didn't become an officer
because they told me I had war and a year duration and I
wasn't gonna stay there all that time.

Even in the service, in the service, I

.

IS:

Oh, they wanted you to stay a year after the war finished.

Garcia:

After the war.

IS:

What branch of the service were you in?

Garcia:

In the Army.

IS:

In the Army.

Garcia:

Sut see, I went in there but I went through all the ranks and I was
one of the DI, those mean buggers you hear on T.V.

I was a DI.

IS:

Oh, you were a DI?

I bet you were good!

Garcia:

And you think those guys are mean, you should see me .

IS:

Yeah, I've heard they are.

•

•

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 42

Garcia:

I worked myself right through that and I

So, I was one of those.
Oh, I was on
didn't have no problem but there's a lot of 'em did.
the boat coming back and, to, we was goin', we di~n't know where we
wasgoin'
and, I don't know, I was standing,
off side, around the parts of the boat there, I heard one of those
guys, boy, when they across, he says, that Garcia is the first one
I'm gonna shoot.

IB:

I think they all say that about a 01 or their tough sergeant but when
the chips are down ...

Garcia:

Yeah, or their tough sergeant, yeah, well, I sit there and I listen
to him.
Pretty soon the other guy said, I'll tell ya what, you can
shoot him but don't shoot him till the war is over.

IB:

See.

That's wonderful.

Garcia:

• IB:

Garcia:

The other guys says, how come? He says, because if we're in trouble,
he's the only one who's gonna get, you ain't gonna get me and I'm not
gonna get myself.
don't shoot him till after the war .

He said, that's the guy who's gonna get us so

That's funny.

I never forgot that 'cause I heard, oh, I heard a lot of 'em behind
my back.

IB:

Did you?

Garcia:

Oh, yeah, especially on the boat when there's nothing to do but talk.

IB:

Yeah, and you're worried about where you're goin'.

Garcia:

And they was just lookin', they was lookin', they was gonnaget
captain, that lieutenant, that sergeant, you know.

that

IA:

IB:

IA:

And there's a lot of ribbing that goes on. My dad, who was from
New York ended up ina
used to kill him, you know, they just drove him crazy, in a good
natured sort of way but, no end. No end to the grief.

troop from, with boys from Alabama and they

And there's antagonism between college educated soldiers and those
that maybe didn't finish junior high school and there was that
antagonism.

Yeah, and the Army's the one place where everybody gets thrown
together.

•

Garcia:

And see, I never told anybody what I was, what I did, what I couldn't
do because the minute you tell 'em, you know, there some kids come in

•

Louis Garcia
1~28~92
Page 43

there without a high school education
holy horror on them guys because you had more of the other ones than
you did them so, you know,
you, never mind.

they say, well, where did

well, they.just went

It's my business.

IB:

And that reflects an attitude, too, if you,come in and say, I'm ROTC.
In other words, you're expecting some kind of special treatment ...

Garcia:

Yeah, that's right.

IB:

Garcia:

shop, too?

didn't go in that way.

That's probably true in the

It's the same in the shop. You get some guy, he was

Db, yeah.
trained for management and now he thinks he's gonna be foreman right
away but you got to work for that
that
......
work.

you got to work for
.
your

work, show, proven, hey, you get it.'

just because you think you got

fix

•

IA:

Now, when you first started after the war, were you living in Lansing
already or were you still out on the farm?

Garcia:

I was still out on the farm.

I move into Lansing

after

.

IA:

Did you work 'em both, 'cause a lot of people that we talked to said
that they worked in the factory and the farm both.

Garcia:

Oh, yeah, I helped my dad
day 'cause I was working but if I had an hour or two and it was nice
day, like long day, you know, sunshine and weekend actually, if tbey
needed help I was there, too, because it was fun.
from what I was doin'.

It was different

not during the

dad

IB:

A change of pace.

Garcia:

Change pace ...

IA:

Right, and with some of the older guys they said that, and I've read
also that it helped when times were hard, you know, to be on the
farm.

There was always something to eat.

Garcia:

Something to eat.
after I start living at home ..... Lansing, I'd come back and my ma
always
it over here.

eggs and whatever, butter, whatever

We always had eggs

had to come back

I buy

IA:

So when you moved into Lansing, were you still single or were you ...

Garc ia: Yeah.

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 44

IA:

You were single in Lansing.

Garcia:

I stayed single until I was about 26 then the woman I got, not me.
didn't get married.

She got married.

I

IA:

IB:

She ....

Was she a RED employee, too?

Garcia:

No.

IB:

You didn't meet her on the job?

Garcia:

She's an out-of-state woman.

She's a foreigner.

IB:

Oh, she's, had to have a passport from across the state line?

Garcia:

Yeah, she comes, yeah, she had a passport.
Illinois.

She's out of Rockford,

IB:

IA:

Oh , yes, I know Rockford .

Sure, I do, too.

Garcia:

She's ah, she's ah, talks the
languages.

worlds

she knows all the

IB:

The reason I asked is because I was talking to somebody on the phone
this morning that we're going to be interviewing and she was saying,
I'm trying to think who was it, she and her husband both worked
there.
years.
surprised how many people met and were married out of the factory.
She said that for six Saturdays in a row, there were six different
shop weddings.

He worked there 39 years and she worked there two and a half
She said that they met in the factory and she said you'd be

Garcia:

Dh, yeah.
I couldn't.

A lot of 'em got married.

But see, no, I never, not that

There was a lot of single women in there, too.

IA:

There probably still were some women from the war work, too, when you
got there, right?

IB:

That's why ...

Garcia:

Dh, yeah, there's a lot of 'em. I dated some of 'em, you know, but I
was already engaged to my wife but I just date 'em. Nothing wrong
with rhat .

IB:

My mother worked there, too, and I remember there being the big
strikes at the end of the War, or you know, after the War and then

•

•

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 45

before production started again, there was a coal strike and a steel
strike and a rail strike and the people were out of work and it seems
like I remember, you couldn't draw unemployment or something, because
there just wasn't any money coming in or very little so my mother
went out and got a part, a second job being a waitress ttll she
hopefully would get called back but that had to be kept a secret
because apparently if they found out back at REO, they wouldn't ...

IA:

IB:

They wouldn't give her her old job back, right.

they would fire you.

She wouldn't get her job back.

Garcia:

No, no, because they would wait, somebody was waiting for the job
........ That was true.

IB:

But we had to eat and we had to pay our apartment rent so she was
doing something nobody would find out.

Garcia:

Yeah, you couldn't do that.
you'd, they'd sign you right off.

If they thought you had another job,

IB:

The union wouldn't protect your job then?

Garcia:

No,

have that much time.

IA:

IB:

Garcia:

IA:

IB:

Plus after the War ..~

Well, she'd been there since only '41 or '42, I mean, so she wouldn't
of had that many years seniority, really.

And after the War they wanted to give jobs to the returning vets,
too.

See that, I was just gonna ask you, what kind of, and you were a
returning vet and I just wondered what kind of, a lot of the women
wanted to stay then and some of them had to.
were single support for their families as my mother was.
wonder what kind of an attitude, what kind of problems there were
between the vets returning and wanting their jobs back and the women
who wanted to hold their jobs?

By then, some of them

I just

Garcia:

I don't know, I didn't see too much.

I bossed quite a few women.

IB:

Did you?

Why does that make us laugh?

Garcia:

See, I ..... no problem.
they had to work, too, and as long as they already had the seniority,
doing good work, the only part I didn't like, like when

They had to work and, you know, I figured

plant

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 46

where Glen or those other guy's from, the same job performed by a
man, he got 15 cents more than the woman and I, I used to, that used
to irk me because the woman used ·to produce more than, in eight hours
in piece.

IB:

Urn, hum, that's what my mother used to talk about.

Garcia:

And they go in there and I felt bad for 'em because, you know, so I
didn't really dis, I disciplined one one day.
I'll always remember,
I think she's still around, Hazel Moss, and ah ...

IB:

Was she gonna shoot you, too?

Garcia:

No, she was a nice lady.
she felt but that day she ran a few parts bad and she,
went over there, maybe it's the tone of voice I used at her or
somethin' but anyway ...

She's a hard worker and I don't know how

I

IB:

She probably already having a bad day to start with.

• Garcia:

I just told

I don't know.

She never did tell me but

Aw, she's passing out over there.

Either that or something.
anyway, I left thinking, you know, it's all settled.
her, you know, she should have been reprimanded but I wasn't gonna
write her up or anything and that was craft, so I walked out and I
don't think gone 15 minutes and another lady come up, she says, hey,
I says, what's the matter
Louie, you better go get a hold of Hazel.
She just can't catch
with Hazel.
her breath.· She's crying so hard and so I went down there and I
says, I got a hold of her and hugged her.
matter 'cause I used to dance with her at the bars, you know, and
have a good time with her.
couldn't tell me, she just cry and cry.
well, I'll take you up to the first aid. No, no, no.
Just keep me
here.
She says, Louis, she says, I took that so hard what you told
She says, I just never wanted to hurt you and I know you don't
me.
want to hurt me but I took it like you did and I can't get over it.
I said, oh, you got to get over it. You screwed up those pieces.
Hell, I told you you screwed 'em, wasn't gonna write you up, could a
wrote you up.
I wasn't about to write her up 'cause she never messed up.
never did tell me what was bothering her 'cause she never made a
mistake.

So pretty soon she says,

I say, Hazel, what's the

That'd been worse yet.

She was a nice, working hard lady and she

That a been on your record and

But she

IA:

IB:

Yeah, it must of been something from home or something else.

Yeah, it might have been something personal and just couldn't pull it
together.

•

Garcia:

She was single.

I mean, I don't know where she, she never told me.

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 47

IA:

Somebody, a relative could have been sick.
million thing~.

It could have been a

Garcia:

Yes, ..... things but I felt so bad 'cause I never wanted to hurt
anybody's feelings that didn't deserve it.

IB:

That didn't deserve.
something ...

What happens after you write a person up for

Garcia:

Goes on their record and usually you can remove it in six months or a
year if you want to or leave it there.

IB:

The employee themselves can remove it, you mean?

Garcia:

This one keeps you alert maybe, maybe

No, I 'can. I can call up or we could call up and I, usually if a
good employee, I, because if, usually that
like maybe a
traffic ticket, you know, you go out and get a ticket and then you
got so many points so you're gonna be alert not to get another one
....... don't get points.
it'll straighten up where you can come, you can come over and confess
why you messed up because like you said, it might a been a home
problem and once you tell 'em that, you know, and I used to always,
we always used to tell 'em, I don't think any supervisor really ever
said, you know, if you got a problem, come in and tell us.
we'll keep it confidential and we just help you get, 'cause sometimes
you talk to somebody, you know, you feel better and we used to tell
'em that so and this way, if they playa
write 'em up and see me in six months and maybe I'll take it off so
they got to behave for six months.
but you could take it off.

If you say, see you in a year,

little hardnose, well then,

So, and

IB:

If they got too many, got written up too many times ...

Garcia:

Three times, I think it was, yeah.

IB:

That's like documenting it then they could be then let go?

Garcia:

Then let go, yeah, or review of it.
15, 20 years, then you start, you know, why, why ...

Say for instance, a person has

IA:

Maybe they should be in 'a different job ...

Garcia:

•

IA:

IB:

Yeah, either that or what's bothering you.
........... but
investigated.
dump 'em, forget 'em, you know.

REO wasn't that,'~

WbJlJ._isit

.

they really

I don't think, they weren't like some other companies,

Yeah, yeah, that's what most people tell.

I was just thinking that ...

Louis Garci.a
1·28·92
Page 48

Garcia: That's where you say, we had a good family type relation.

IA:

Did anybody else in your family work at REO, too, or was it just you?
None of your brothers or sisters or anything.

Garcia: No, they were too old or over ...

IA:

Other places.

Garcia: Either Fisher or Flint.

IA:

IB:

IA:

'Cause Glen was telling us all his brothers and his dad and his
grandfather...

His sister.

Seems like it was a big thing for his family.

Garcia: Yeah, it was a big thing but ah, we wanted to go different

.

IA:

Different places.

Garcia: Yeah. They could of went in there 'cause I was in, I was already

there.

IA:

Right, and you could of helped 'em out.

Garcia: Yeah, um, hum.

IA:

But they chose to go ...

Garcia: I knew the personnel manager. You get to know everybody because, you

know, of working.

IB:

What about safety in the factory from the time you hiredin , safety
for the employee?

Garcia: Oh, it was great. I mean, ...

IA:

Until you left?

Garcia: When, when I, when I was first there, it was very bad.

IA:

Oh, when you first came in in the '40s1

Garcia: Yeah.

IB:

People got hurt on machines?

•

•

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 49

Garcia:

It was nothin' to see an arm off or fingers or hands or,

Oh, yeah.
and ah, especially in the press division, you had to be real careful
because you, there was just one lever control.
There were no buttons
or anything like that.

IB:

You had to put your hands in it?

Garcia:

come off.

One dead.

I seen ladies with
I seen a guy with his arm, both arms off.

Put your hand in, push in the lever and just start puttin' the pieces
out, in and out, so you know, there's no, no, by the time I went
through all them years, I seen great changes.
hands cut off to here.
I've seen arms
did I see? Two, I think.
went through his B." I.,.
one went through the rollers, ..... where you test the Army trucks,
you know, the rollers for the wheels are running, he went right
through there and the only thing that wasn't flat was from here up
It was just a pair of
and he could still talk. This was nothing.
pants hanging out, so it squeezed him right out, see, and his wife
was expecting.
that's the onl~ thing he told me.
I was right there talkin' to him and before Mrs 11fF.J.1I/. and somebody
else would come down with the medics

One went through, the fork, the fork thing

Let's see, how many dead

and the other

I think both

She was

.

IB:

Make me feel a little better.

Garcia:

But, no, I've seen some awful things.

IB:

What helped, as you got, the later years while you were there, you
didn't see as much of that because by then the safety things were in
place?

Garcia:

In other words,
Yeah, everybody started, they kept pushing safety.
think, think.
think before you, because
the machines haven't got the eyes. You got the eyes and stuff like
that, you know, they kept preaching.

There were signs allover,

IB:

And some of the machines could be changed, too, couldn't they?

Garcia:

Yeah.

IB:

Put guards on 'em and things?

Garcia:

IA:

•

Guards and monitors on them and different things could be put on 'em,
screen protectors.
days,

with what was comin' new, if they applied it ;

Now it's a lot better

back in them

.

Some of the books that I've read say that the, the big push during
the war, that things needed to be produced so fast sometimes
contributed to some of the accidents, too.

•

•

•

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 50

Garcia:

Yup, see and that big push during the war continued after the war
because they figured it wasn't war but now they want parts for
commercial use now that the demand was out there so they pushed it so
safety was put over there and then I start, I don't remember what
year, maybe the rest of the guys can remember, they started thinking
about having safety seminars within the departments, company.
have a group and
morning right away, tell everybody don't do this, don't do that.
Watch
think, see what thing we could buy to make it more safety for the
machine.

we start training ourselves to walk in the

and then try to

word by mouth

this

We.

IA:

So you became safety conscious?

Garcia:

Oh, yeah, start training that because it was awful to see somebody
lose a hand.

IB:

IA:

Oh, God.

I can't imagine.

Garcia:

Or get killed.

IA:

Did the supervisors take suggestions, not just about safety but all
sorts of things from workers?

Garcia:

Yeah.

IA:

On how to change things to make it better or more productive?

Garcia:

We had a, yeah, we got, we had what, we formed a committee which was,
included the steward and the committeeman, the supervisor ...

IA:

So the union was involved, too.

Garcia:

Yeah, we had to. The union suffered just as much as their, they're
the bargaining party anyway so you, we had a safety committee and
safety tours, a good housekeeping because that means a lot, too,
because if you haven't got a clean department, you could trip and
hurt yourself or kill, I've seen guys fall into a ,machine, knock
themselves out.

IB:

'Cause the floor was slippery.

Garcia:

There was something on the floor, a 2 X 4 they didn't pick up because
he's too lazy or figure Joe will do it next, you know, and it's too
late, pick now, you know.
teaching, preaching knowledge, oh man, just, yeah, I seen a lot of '
'em.

It's all the things we had to start

• Louis Garcia

1-28-92
Page 51

IS:

Did the factory, the man who was killed, for instance, did they, was
there a pension or was there some kind of benefits for his widow
or ...

Garcia: Just whatever insurance was back then

.

IS:

IA:

Ii:

IA:

And the workers had, didn't we talk about ...

That was from the early days they had a mutual benefit ...

Oh , but that ...

But I don't know how long that lasted.

Garcia:

I don't think it lasted long.

I don't think ....

IA:

IB:

No, that was more in the teens and the '20s.

It would be as, like now, if somebody's hurt at SOC, they're almost
always retired with a disability pension.
Did REO do anything like
that?

•

Garcia: Yeah, they had something like that but not ...

IS:

But not very well ...

Garcia: No, it's not, it wouldn't compensate for a lifetime, no way.

IA:

Yeah, or take care of the kid ...

Garcia: No, or the family.

IA:

IS:

that was yet to be born.

Or put that worker, say he lost one hand, put him in another job,
could he continue to work?

Garcia; Oh, yeah, they've done that.

IS:

They would do that.

Garcia: That one, that one, if you lost an eye or hand or fingers, whatever,
different job or they

you still had a job some place 'cause
trained you for the other one, yeah.
gentleman's agreement.
it was there.

I don't know as I ever seen it in writing but

That was kind of like a

But it was 'cause of things like that that people wanted to work at
REO.

• IA:

Louis Garcia
1-28-92
Page 52

Garcia: Yeah, yeah, we had, we had a lot of people that

to work.

IA:

Well, I've seen even letters, people writing during the Depression, I
think I told some of you at the lunch, you know, I WaS laid off.
I'm
back on the farm. When can you get me back. You know, when can I
come back to work and any opportunity that they had to get back into
that plant, that's where they wanted to work.
didn't matter.
can be there.

They said, I don't care what it is, just so long as I

They wanted it. It

Garcia:

That's right" and a lot of 'em, see, they could use a elevator
operator.
physical body, they'd put one with a arm missing or ...

Instead of having a man or a woman fully qualified with a

IA:

Yeah, doing something like that ...

Garcia: Yeah, or maybe one eye lost, some fragment shot through, you know,
the machines 'cause we had those, too, and so they put 'em on the
elevators or whatever, on little classic cars that used to carry
pieces, they could drive one of those

.

IB:

I've seen those. I remember.
neighborhood.

I was a kid and grew up in that

Garcia:

I mean, there was a lot of things they've changed and

the person that was doing it was
because they knew that that person needed a job, needed work so there
was no, not much, I never heard any of 'em squabble. They say, well,
that's my job.
If I
.
did,

I'm not gonna give it up.

I never heard that.

go.... place else

IB:

There again, that goes back to the family ..OJ'

••

, doesn't it?

Garcia: Yes.

I don't think any of the guys in supervision or even workers

ever heard anybody complain like that. They always figured, in fact,
everybody felt bad 'cause it was a loss, lost his life. What time is
it?

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

It's late.

It's 4 o'clock ....

And I think we're all getting tired.

I think we need to, this has been wonderful.
your input. '

I really appreciate all

Garcia: Yeah, I hope it helps you

•

•

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