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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 1

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Frahm:

....women you should contact beside us. You know, one of them is
Ardith Pathen.

IA:

Right, we know about her.

Frahm: You know her?

IA:

Yes.

Frahm: And then Fern Placley, you know about her?

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

Yeah.

Yeah.

We do?

I've got her, oh

You do?

It was on some information that Mr. Rankin gave us last week.

Oh okay.

She was the nurse at the first-aid

Frahm:

Pardon me?

IA:

Was she the nurse at the first-aid or

Frahm: Yeah, she was the head of the hospital.

IA:

Yeah.

Frahm: Arts wife, Fern

IA:

IB:

Fern Placely, I didn't know.

Oh Artis was, I'm sorry. Fern Placely was

Frahm:

In personnel.

IA:

IB:

IA:

To personnel.

Oh okay.

I've got her name and address and everything.

~

Frahm:

I think Fern Placely is the one that wrote this synopsis.

IA:

Oh I see.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 2

Frahm: I'm almost sure she was.

IA:

Okay. Um, we just found out that the women all meet, I'm sorry I
have a bad cold,

Frahm: Well I do too, I got it for two days now. My wife she has really got

it bad.

IA:

IA:

I caught this one from my daughter. Um, we just found out that the
women all have lunch at the, we just have a backup in case one of us
messes up.

This is February 10, 1992 Lisa Fine and Shirley Bradley at the R. E.
Olds Museum, we are interviewing Arthur Frahm on Reo Memories.

IB:

Okay, you need to remind us what

Frahm: I hope you have questions, because I'm not sure where you want to

start on this.

Yes we do.

We have plenty of questions.

IA:

IB:

Frahm: Okay.

IB:

There is no problem there.

Frahm: There are so many variations and memories and things that I think we

all remember and some are good and some are bad.

IA:

Right. Right.
what your job was at Reo.

First you need to remind us when you worked there and

Frahm: Okay. I went to work there in March of 1947 and ah, left in March of

'72.

IA:

You were there almost to the end, weren't you?

Frahm: Right and I began work at Diamond Reo in the accounts payable

department. And my job was to, to ah, check invoices with purchase
orders for accuracy.

IA:

Okay. And where did you end up going to?

Frahm: Pardon?

IA:

Where did you end up going to?

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 3

Frahm:

Oh I see then I remember I didn't particularly like this job because
it was a stressful and uninteresting.
And one day this fellow that
had the service purchasing department on the third floor came down,
he says I'd like you to work upstairs for me.
He did and I said I'm ready to go.
it's~all about.
thing was that Carl Godfrey who had been at Reo Motors at one time
and then Diamond Reo later, ah, he went to work many, many years ago
when they were still making passenger cars.

I says tell me what

And the funniest

IA:

Ah huh, before '37, '36.

Frahm:

Yes, and he became purchasing agents for truck service parts and I
There was, I think there were
became what they callan
And ah, that was a big
two others beside myself and two girls.
operation because all of the parts that went into trucks from here on
back he bought and put them to stock and then the branches and

expediter.

IA:

Would call if they needed something?

Frahm:

Right, right.

That was, pardon

IS:

Frahm:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
what you physically had to do in that department.

I just wanted to know

Oh in that particular job, I actually, we had purchase orders, of
course, and we had copies went to the supplier and we had copies in
the cost department and we had copies, a follow-up copy which was a
stiff back copy and it gave the part number toPop(?)
and the vendor
and what time it was or how many and what scheduled over a long
And when we each day we went through
period of time and so forth.
these files and made sure that the supplier was shipping correctly.
And this involvedmariy times
And he hadn't and why he hadn't been.
actually going to the supplier and seeing what the problem was.
It
was an interesting job.
I really enjoyed. it and Carl Godfrey was a
real whiz, because he kept the cost up to date currently,other
words, if a vendor changed a price ah, ordinarily in most companies,
that particular change doesn't occur until later, they wait.
this was almost immediately so that we in turn could, could increase
And like I say, I enjoyed
our prices to our branches and customers.
that job and I don't recall how long I worked for him, but when he
retired then they asked me if I'd like to have that job,which

But

I did.

IA:

So you were head of that department?

Frahm:

•

Right, in fact, it was amusing because Jim Durabon who was vice
president of the company at that time, whenever he come up to me and
he said,do
I've been here X number of years and I'm very familiar with what the
operation consists of. And also, then, we start to build military
trucks and so we were buying ah, military parts and commercial truck

you think you can handle it.

I says certainly I can ..

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 4

And then to back up a bit, I don't know if you were aware of
parts.
it, it is not publicized much, but Reo Motors at that time was really
one of the first companies to build a power lawn mower

IA:

Yes.

Frahm:

for home use.

IA:

Right.

Frahm:

And so I bought lawn mower service parts as well.
divisions you might say.
and then when White Motors bought Diamond Reo, first a merger came.
Diamond Reo
the Diamond Reo operation.

combined and then White Motors of Cleveland

Well that job went on for a long, long time

So that was three

purchased

IA:

This was in the '60's, right?

Frahm:

of service

to go down

Well they offered me the opportunity

And the decision was made to move the purchasing

Yes.
parts to Cleveland.
there, well I went down and looked and there were several things
The first place, the money wasn't there and
against the move.
secondly it was more expensive living costs there and I didn't
family to move there for a little less money.
It was kind of
ridiculous
and they would not pay the moving expenses either.
turned it down and made the director of purchasing
angry, but I had enough seniority there so they kind of kept me just
around downstairs
Well, ah, it
in the main purchasing department.
wasn't too long and Frank Huxtable who was buying what they called
nonproductive
second.
bolts and nuts and washers, clips, small items.
they of fered me that job, so in turn I got that.
interesting job.
repairs co furniture, engineering

He was also buying how do you call fasteners which included

and services, he retired, also back up a

Because I bought everything

Well when he retired
And that was a very

from let's say roof

at Diamond Reo

materials

So I

my

IA:

Oh anything that the plant needed.

Frahm:

Yes, everything
on the truck itself.

that was used in the plant offices that was not used

IA:

I see.

Frahm:

Because I used to get in the plant several times a day and so I
learned tp know everybody.
operationl more or less.
recall many incidents that happened there.
some good, some bad.

That was truly interesting because

And it was, it made a big family

Of course ... I can say

I can

IA:

Yeah, well we like to hear them both.

•

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 5

Frahm:

Here is an interesting thing. When I, when we were buying military
service parts, now that included everything imaginable from the
engine, to the transmission, to the body, all of these things.
remember one thing was was ah, transmission gears.
highly precisioned round and they are packed individually and I
walked out one day into the plant where they were packaging these
parts and there was a guy, an employee, throwing those gears into a
gondola, .... you know what that guy is doing, those gears cost us
like $42 a piece, I mean it wasn't like a ..... just a nickel will
ruin them.
interesting things happened.
department, we had an ordinance inspectors in there to inspect those
parts before they went into the boxes or containers for shipping to
different ordinance depots.

And, of course, then we ah, that was in many, many

Well, for example, ordinance

Now those are

And I

IA:

Ah huh these were meant for the military?

Frahm:

For the military.

And I remember that we got a call
Yes, military.
one day from, from the boxing department that they were holding up a
shipment of chains.
let's say 10 foot lengths and they are used to move one truck to
Well, the .. how they packed them, they put
another that was down.
them in a barrel and rolled them like that so they and the ordinance
department was complaining because the paint was chipping off.

Now these chains come from the manufacture in

IA:

Of the chains or the barrel?

Frahm:

Of the chains.

And

IA:

It doesn't affect its performance.

Frahm:

No.

No, how are you going to prevent that.

IA:

Yeah.

Frahm:

And then they were going to shut down the packaging department so I
told them

IA:

Well,

wrap them right?

Frahm:

Pardon?

IA:

Wrap the chain.

Frahm:

Yeah, that's crazy.
department called the ordinance and they got it cleared up .

But anyway they ah, the head of the purchasing

IA:

Cleared up.

Frahm:

Yeah got that cleared up.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 6

IA:

That wouldn't affect the performance of the chain.

Frahm: No, no.

IA:

pull the truck out of the mud.

Frahm: You can take the move the chain from here to there and there would be

paint off.

IA:

Let me ask you, you are talking about suppliers. Um, engines and all
these different parts, all those things came from small shops around
Michigan?

Frahm: No, not necessarily.

The big shots, small shots, whatever, it could

be anywhere from right in Lansing to New York or California or Texas,
Florida.

IA:

Oh is that right?

Frahm: Yeah.

IB:

I guess I just thought everything for the Reo Truck was made in the
Reo factory, that's not so.

Frahm: Oh, no, no, see everything, the only things that were made at the

factory were the the chassis frames and that would be on channel
which was assembled you might say at Diamond Reo. Then the engines
they were built at Diamond Reo.
transmissions and axles and everything else.

The crank shafts, the cam shafts,

IA:

And they ... up the bodies, right, here?

Frahm: Right, right.

IA:

Okay.

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Frahm: Yeah, we actually we had a sheet metal plant and they built the

bodies here.

IA:

Okay.

Frahm: Um, what else I want to tell you.

Too many, many things I'm trying

to remember.

IB:

I suppose the wheels and tires and all of that.

Frahm: Oh I know what I was going to tell you. You know, there is always a

problem, I think, even the Big Three even find this that there are
some things that are difficult to get.
long time and consequently demand is greater than supply, so we had a

I mean delivery is to length

•

• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 7

Well it

When I was

So it was always a screaming,

couple things happen that really were amusing in one way.
buying service parts for the trucks, we were buying the axle came
from what was known at that time as Timken Detroit Axle, now it is
Rockwell Standard and my turn I was buying the axle shafts.
just seemed that we could not get enough axle shafts from Timken to
keep the customers of ours happy.
yelling, you know, when will you ship us those axle shafts?
day a fellow came in that I knew from Detroit, he came in and he said
Art, he said, there is a firm in Chicago and I want you to see it for
building truck axle shafts, that's the only thing they build in
there.
So we flew from here, out here at Kessler(?) Airport
think about it.
to Chicago and the plant a very good operation.
So I came back and I
talked to my boss and I told him what the situation and he says sure,
go ahead and get them and get out of trouble.
It wasn't only a few
months later that the service manager starting raising, just raising
hell about it because he said, well that, that, that ah, .cancels our
warranty with Timkin Detroit Axle.

He said I'd like to have you see the plant and see what you

Soone

IB:

• Frahm:

Oh, on the existing, the truck that has those axles in them already.

Right, but then we find out later that because legally we had a legal
staff there too, I talked to him, and he said if Timken Axle cannot
supply them and you can get them and they are a quality product,
that's fine.

He says and they cannot

IB:

Cancel.

Frahm:

nullify your warranty, because they cannot supply the axle shafts, so
that was another.

IA:

You had your own legal staff at the factory?

Frahm:

Pardon?

IA:

You had lawyers on staff at Reo.

Frahm:

We had one attorney and a girl.

IA:

I see.

Frahm:

Yeah.

IA:

Okay.

IB:• IA:

IB:

That's interesting,. I hadn't heard that before.

No, I hadn't either.

No.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 8

IA:

But it would make sense.
come up.

Because obviously these kinds of questions

IB:

Yeah.

Frahm: We have a lot of questions come up legally.

IB:

Right.

Frahm: Questions.

IA:

IB:

I bet you did.

Did you have any parts or any um, materials come in from overseas
anywhere that you

.

Frahm: No.

IB:

Everything was U.S. made.

Frahm:

In fact, we had, isn't it interesting how

Oh yeah, right, right.
things, when it came to military parts, you know, like I said we
tried to or possible to supply, give those orders to small firms and
I didn't know this until a short time, I was buying a part from a
little firm here in Lansing underneath the Kalamazoo Street bridge
there is a Zel-Hart Products, you remember that? Anyway, come to '
find out it is a second cousin of mine.
and doing a good job too.
in to play, the, the ah, IRS came in there, of course, and they froze
everything you might say.
Ken Hartzel his name, he name was Zel-Hart, Hartzel spelled
backwards.

But when, when this bankruptcy thing came

I'll never forget, Ken was shipping his,

And he was building parts

IB:

Oh I see.

That's interesting.

Frahm: Yeah.

A little firm, he had, he probably had maybe three, four

They were doing a good job, too. And I don't remember,

employees.
let's say the figure was $6,000 I think, he had coming.
accounts payable department paid the bill.
to him and said, well you, well of course came back to us and also
him that we were not suppose to pay those bills.
be approved by IRS first.
He says
the money back.
door and went to Florida.

So they went to Ken and told him to pay
He closed the

Well, the IRS came back

and hell with you.

It was suppose to

So the

IA:

I know you don't think about that, but when a company like Reo goes
out of business, it is not just the people who work in the company,
it is all the other, the suppliers you know.

"

I"

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 9

Frahm: Oh yes. You know, it was a little firm that was, they were doing a
fine job and that little money they were getting, was their p.ayroll
and expenses.

IB:

And now ... you know, ...

Frahm: That's right.

IA:

Everything is related to the automotive industry form an early 1900's
right, you know, everything it spreads out like a ripple effect.

Frahm: Oh yeah.

IA:

It is just so interesting.

Frahm:

If things go bad, it filters down through all the small firms too.

IB:

Right, um, how did you end up at the Reo to begin with?

Frahm: Oh I went in the Service.

IB:

Right, I remember you mentioning that when we were at lunch.

Frahm: Right, and I'd worked at Oldsmobile and I often say this, that is one

I regret now, two-legged camel back up and .... But when I came back
from the Service, when I went in the Service I worked for Oldsmobile
and I had a good job, which was called, detailed car inspection.
I
had a license plate and a pass and my job was to go to the warehouse
and pick up a car at random, bring it back to the engineering
department, put it up on the hoist, go through it with a fine-tooth
comb inside and out, and make a report on it. Take it out and road
test it and bring it back.

And gees that's a wonderful job.

IA:

IB:

It sure is.

How old were you then?

Frahm: And then the war came and ah, I remember that they closed that

operation and I went to work in the gauge(?) division which was a
nice job too. Because we were checking the, we were making 20
millimeter gun barrels, other military parts.

IB:

Oh they are already starting with the military.

Frahm: Right, right.

IB:

I see.

Frahm: We were, like I say, the ah, commercial thing had more or less

ceased. And now we were in to military.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 10

IB:

Yeah, you should tell us, you know, how old you were and what years

remember.

Frahm:

Oh,

IB:

So when the war first broke out, you were still too young, you were
still working

.

Frahm:

Right, right.
can't,

Um, see I went into the Service in '43, I was ah, I

I was 29.

I was married and had one child.

IA:

Oh you were?

Frahm:

Yes.

IA:

And you got drafted?

Frahm:

Well that's another thing that really grinded me.

Right.
child, I had a wife and I asked for deferment and I was working there
~n that gauge(?) division which was a military part.
And I
never forget this, and this kind of really got to me and my father
felt the same way.
woman that worked for Brandle and he had charge of the deferments at
Oldsmobile.
politics again.

And the girl, I think she worked, this was a

Her husband never went in the Service.

So we went and when I came back.

So that is

I had a

IA:

You were born in 1914?

Frahm:

Pardon?

IA:

'Whatyear were you born?

Frahm:

1915.

IA:

1915.

Frahm:

Right.

IA:

You don't look your age.

Frahm:

So when I came back from the Service, we had sold our house before I
left and we went to my wife's parents who live in Coldwater,
And I laid around for a month or two and then I got ah,
Michigan.
upset and I went to work for a plant, a firm called Federal Mogu1.

IA:

Yes.

Frahm:

And let's see, maybe I should back up a second ..... No, no, I
remember when I got back from the Service, I went to Oldsmobile and

, ,

e

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• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 11

IA:

Did you get your old job back?

Frahm:

Try to get myoId

job back.

It wasn't available.

IB:

IA:

Nothing there.

I thought they had to hold jobs for the returning servicemen.

Frahm:

Yeah, that was that was an outright lie.

IA:

Was it really?

Frahm:

It really was an outright lie.

IB:

IA:

IB:

• Frahm:

IA:

It wasn't a lie if you got it. But it was a lie if you didn't.
guess.

I

Oh I just thought that that was

But some have told us that they had their Jobs back when they came
back.

Well so they offered me a job in the, in the at urn,press plant
checking shell molds.

They were still making military they were.

Oh were they?

Frahm:

And god what a dirty, noisy place.
went to the union and complained about it, but I wasn't a member of
No they said we can't do anything about it.
the union.

I just couldn't stomach that.

I

IA:

They couldn't?

Frahm: No.

You know and I realized later I made a serious mistake.
I
should have gone to the home of the father I worked for before.

IA:

Oh from Oldsmobile?

Frahm:

Yes.

IA:

Yeah.

Frahm:

Went to his house first. And I think I would have gotten back in
So, I became discouraged and I went
with that particular section.
It was an
back to Coldwater and I went to work for Federal Mogul.
outfit that made rod bearings for engines, car engines.
I worked
there for a year and half, but living with your wife's parents isn't

•

no way.

You know, how that

IA:

Not when you've got your own family.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 12

IB:

Yeah.

Frahm: Right, right. So, I came back to Lansing and rented a house and I

went to Reo and a friend of mine was in the cost department and I
So I got a Job
talked to him, he says yeah we got openings here.
with, within a few days went to work for them.

IA:

Did you think that was a good place, you know? Obviously you would
have preferred to go back to Olds, but

Frahm: Oh definitely so.

IA:

it really was okay.

Frahm: Definitely so.

IA:

Yeah.

Frahm: And they ah, and you can't brood about it or feel bad about it.

IA:

Right.

Frahm: We almost lost our pension literally. We did, we don't have any

pension.

Yes.

I know.

IA:

IB:

Frahm: So it is scraping

IB:

Yeah, right, we heard about that from other people too.

Frahm: Yeah.

I .... did too.

IA:

But if you'd been able to go to, you would have preferred to go to
Olds because you had worked there before.

Frahm: Yes.

IA:

Because the pay was better or

Frahm: Yeah, the pay was much better and then secondly too, they carry your

seniority when in the time you were in the Service. See, if I went
to work there in '35 and left in '43, so I had eight plus ... years.

IA:

Plus your Service....

Frahm: Yeah.

Service time.

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 13

IB:

50 when you started to Reo, you had to start from the bottom.

Frahm: Right, from scratch really.

IB:

Who was your friend in cost accounting that help you get in?

Frahm:

Pardon?

IS:

Who was your friend in cost?

Frahm: Oh Otto Gerginski.

IB:

Otto

Frahm: Gerginski. His mother was my godmother.

IA:

IS:

Oh.

Oh, how would spell his name do you think?

•

Frahm: G e r

IS:

G e r

Frahm:

gin

ski.

IS:

IA:

Thank you.

We have someone that is going to be typing this up later and. I can
imagine them hearing this on a tape and not knowing what, how to do
this. Thank you.

Frahm: And I went to work in the ah, accounts payable department for a man

named Howard Viges, V i g e s. He was a nice, nice, nice guy, but I
don't know. We had so many personnel changes in that Diamond Reo
that

IA:

Oh you did?

Frahm: you couldn't keep Reo Motors and Diamond Reo a1.lthe time the

They brought a fellow in as, first was Ano 5chraft

changes, changes.
was here, was controller and then he became ill I think and left and
then Howard Viges, oh wait a minute, Joe Newman came in as
controller. And I'm not, I don't have any discriminatory thoughts,
but he was a Jewish guy who will just, he used to sit at the back of
the room and yell at Howard.

Oh you know, like a calling a dog.

IA:

Yeah.

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 14

Frahm:

I felt so sorry .... because he was such a good guy and had to put up
with that. And I think actually it killed him, because he died of a
heart attack not too many months after that.

IA:

IB:

Oh gosh.

The stress builds up.

Frahm:

Stress.

IB:

You are saying every time that that Reo underwent new management,
they brought in new people.

Frahm:

And every time, this is amusing one way, yet it was

Dh I got, that's another incident I cannot believe, gees.
many inept, incapable people that came in in positions of, bit
positions.
For example, um, manufactured manager, now he would be
ridiculous.
They might even label
directly under the president of the company.
him as a vice president.
We had changes continually and every time
we'd get a new manufacture manager, I got a call, our Mr. So and So
wants to see you.
carpeting, new drapes.

Go up there, he'd want new furniture, new

We had so

IB:

Oh and you'd have to buy it.

Frahm:

I can't think of his name

And he called me in. He came there from Clark Equipment.

Well buy all that stuff. And we had, and you know, the thing that
make you mad is that so many of these birds were they had a big ego.
This one fellow, he became, I don't know if he still is head of the
Liquor Control Commission in Michigan.
right now.
And ah, he said I want a new desk and credenza, chair and carpeting
and this and that. And he said I want you to contact Sears
Commercial Sales. Well I says, I told him I says, fine I'd be glad
to, but as I want you to know that we had experience before with
them.
bought it from from was it Clark, I says okay, it is your baby.
we waited for months and months and then one day he called me in and
that furniture it was nice, I'll have to say, it was in all fairness
it was nice furniture.
was swivel chair and I think four side chairs.
side chair, it is a little bit crooked.

He brought me in and I don't remember that

Oh he says it is not either, I got, I

He said now see that

The delivery is bad.

IB:

He doesn't have other more important to worry about, right?

Frahm:

Such insignificant things. And then, you know, I couldn't
Right.
see it.
So after he had gone to lunch I brought a couple of other
people there from purchasing and I says can you see anything wrong
with these chairs?

They looked them over thoroughly.

No.

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 15

IB:

I have to mention your salaries .... you know. You are being paid to
do more than that.

Frahm: That's exactly right.

It was just peanuts and nothing important.

IB:

Um,

Frahm: And I got like another incident. This may be interesting to you too.

Clare Loudenslager was the last manufacturing manager.

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

Now we've heard his name before.

Quite often.

Yeah.

Heard of him a lot.

Frahm: Before he, he had been a Reo at one time and then left and then he

Among the things I bought for

So, they were always tied up on lift

·became a sales representative and again, this was at the time when I
was buying nonproduction.
nonproduction were parts materials for the maintenance department,
which included forklift trucks. We had a lot of those, gasoline,
propane, electrics and among them was I think we had two long .arm
cranes. Well, those lift trucks were old, really old.
of them, most of them were purchased from park equipment, good
product, but 25 years old.
truck parts, again this Clare came in and he said, Art, he said, I've
got a source in Chicago which builds lift truck parts, that's their
specialty.
Chicago, good operation, excellent operation. And I remember calling
em, I used to call Clark Equipment, they always wanted the serial
number and the model number and I said we need this particular part
and we need it right away. And they'd laugh. So we discontinued
that truck ten years ago.
because I knew it was true. So, Clare, so I looked the plant over
and this was how conscientious Clare was.
They can say.everything
they want about him, but he was really conscientious.
He,used·toget
in his personal car and drive to Chicago to get us lift truck parts.

So I want you to see it. So he had me flown down to

(laughter) And I got so

A good share

about it,

IA:

Is that right on his own expense.

Frahm: On his own expense, right. And he done this any number of times, and
I was criticized for doing that. They got a new master mechanic come
in from Ford.
to do, do you want to let that equipment sit there?

He says, that's not ethical.

I said what do you want

IA:

Yeah, right.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 16

IB:

When it is needed on the floor.

•

Frahm:

If you need it it is needed. Now we had one of those lift cranes,
long arm cranes out in the export department which was used to lift
those big wooden boxes onto railcars. And without that we were lost.

IA:

Absolutely.

You couldn't load your stuff on.

Frahm: No you couldn't load them. And when he became manufacturing manager,

I'll have to say that, to me he was the only one I've ever had that
new what the score was and what he was doing. He was rough, but he
got the production out and it was good. And I still maintain that if
they had seen their way clear and left him there to run that place,
it would be going today.

IB:

Hum, that's interesting.

Frahm:

One example of what he done was we had one of the best surface
operation lines in the United States, CATA(?) that was his baby.

IB:

Oh wow.

Frahm:

IB:

IA:

Right.
he left Reo.

He developed that, he designed it and became the manager when

•

After Reo.

Oh he did, that's where he went after Reo.

Frahm: We'll back up a minute too. I forget. When he became, ... plant on

Reo payroll again, I'll tell him about Joe knew about this guy that
was

with that Sears Furniture.

IB:

IA:

Oh yeah.

Oh yes.

Frahm:

He said we are going to get rid of that guy, he is one of the first
guys that is going to go. I remember, I know how it happened, but
one of the fellows was standing in the lobby, Clare walked into this
guy's office and he says to him, ... Clark Newell, Newell.
said, get your things and get out of here, you are through. Just
like that.

He

IB:

Wow.

Frahm: Well then he advanced ... bang he was out.

IB:

Did he get to take his crooked chair with him?

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 17

Frahm: No.

IA:

The next person

unfortunately.

Frahm:

I think another thing that might be interesting is how this thing
functioned after Cappaert bought it.
Is this something you might
want to know?

IA:

IB:

IA:

Sure.

Yeah, we've heard a lot about that from people too.

Yes.

Frahm:

Cappaert was an individual who was involved in the manufacture of
mobile homes.

IA:

IB:

Oh, I didn't know.

I didn't know that.

Frahm: He'd had had no knowledge

IB:

Down in Mississippi?

Frahm: 'Mississippi?

•

IA:

Is that where he's from? Yeah.

Frahm: And he had no knowledge of truck manufacture at all and he had cat

ideas. He brought with him Mildred Johnson.

IA:

We've heard about her.

Frahm:

She was vice president and she was his mistress.

IA:

Oh she was.

Frahm: Yeah, he was married, but it was his mistress.

IA:

I see.

Frahm: And she told him that she would reduce that payroll the first year
by, I think the figure was $900,000. Well, that affected us.
So
every day, she'd call one person into her office, same procedure,
she'd ask you to sit down, she'dopen her,'desk draw and hand you a
slip. At the top of it said my resignation.
every day, one a day. I remember it because I was one \of them, and I
looked at it and I says, what for. She says we have our reasons.

The same procedure

I

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 18

said I want to know what they are. We ... not to tell you.
refuse to sign it. And again

I said I

IA:

You are fired.

Frahm: you are fired. And I never get this Al Axle I knew was in personnel,

he told her very bluntly you go to hell.

IA:

IB:

Oh my.

Couldn't the union intervene to help you?

Frahm: No, see we were all supervisors.

IA:

Supervisors.

Frahm:

See, if you were 50 years old or older

IA:

Oh yes, that's right, of course, I wasn't thinking.

Frahm:

If you had a supervisory position and a good salary and seniority,
you were alive for the

.

IA:

Yes, yes I see that.

Frahm: There was 37 of us that got it every day. And then the payoff was,

.... caught the payroll, but she put in people who had absolutely no
So many of them were just graduates from Michigan State
experience.
Young guys, good intentions, but no knowledge.
University.

IA:

But no experience.

Frahm: No experience or knowledge.

IA:

They could pay probably a quarter.

Frahm: Oh yeah, they paid them just peanuts in comparison.

I could keep,

some guy you know, call me at home and tell me what was going on.

IA:

Oh.

Frahm: And then the gall, I think what added more than anything with the

thing was that these very people who replaced us some of them had the
guts to call us at home and ask us how to do this. God.

IA:

IB:

Oh my.

And you/ of course, would tell them.

Frahm: Yeah, that's right. You can imagine what the reply was.

•

•

•

, .

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 19

IB:

Well and who could blame you.

Frahm:

Pardon me?

IB:

I say who could blame you.

Frahm: Yeah.

IB:

Um, oh , I guess I'd like to go back to at the very beginning for just
a second

Frahm:

Sure.

IB:

and just ask you what your background was before you came to the
shop. Were you from, did you live in Lansing, did your family

Frahm: Yeah, I was born and raised in Lansing, I graduated from um, Eastern

High School, took some courses at MSU.

IA:

What kind of courses did you take?

Frahm:

I never got my degree at MSU.

IB:

In what engineering type things?

Frahm: Right, I tookah, I took ah, higher mathematics which included

calculus and trig. and geometry and I took, I remember that, oh there
were many courses, I don't recall them all, but when I got into
purchasing at Diamond Reo, I took a course in purchasing at MSU.

IB:

The business school by then.

Frahm:

Pardon?

IB:

By then it was the business school.

Frahm: Right, right, John Hoagland taught it.

IB:

IA:

Yeah. Yeah.

John?

Frahm: Hoagland

IA:

Oh Holdman, okay.

Frahm: Yeah, H 0 a g I

IB:

I a n d

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 20

Frahm: Do you know him by chance?

IB:

I've heard his name. .

Frahm: Oh you have.

..

•

IB:

I've heard his name. Urn,and you were doing this originally

Yeah.
going to courses at MSU probably was in the Depression, right in the
'30's.

Frahm: Right, it was see it would have been urn,

I graduated from

Eastern in '34, so that was right in the middle.

IB:

That's right.

Frahm:

IB:

So you might as well go to school because there is not much else to
do. You might as well go to school because there is nothing else to
do.

Frahm: Exactly. Exactly.

In fact, I used to go to school and

•

library too, I learned how an airplane engine runs and things of this
nature.

I got a curiosity.

IB:

Ah huh and that's how you were able to get your first job at Olds
from kinds of courses that you got there?

Frahm: Right, right.

I had about, now here is another thing.

I think that

you talk so much about about getting ahead in life. I think I was
raised in a family where there was no, no affection. My father was
an individual who didn't like work particular, he'd rather stay in
bed and sleep.

IB:

What did he do when he didn't work?

Frahm: Sleep.

IA:

Oh he didn't have a regular

Frahm: I kept telling you this.

IB:

Really, did your mom work? Did she support the family?

Frahm: No.

It was just a and I remember going to school in my bare, you ...
it felt so from the time I was about

hang out you know,
14 I went to work

come up with this.

IB:

How did your family survive without him having a regular job?

•

• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 21

Frahm: Well at that particular time he'd work maybe a couple days and home a

couple days.

That is just enough to get by.

IB:

Yeah.

Frahm: And the home that we lived in was one of my father's, my dad's

parents had left him, so

He ... okay.

Oh so you didn't have house payments or

IB :

IA:

Frahm:

No.

. ......

IB:

Clothes.

Frahm:

IB:

Shoes.

Frahm:

• IB:

Frahm:

That's right.

Did you have lots

of brothers and sisters, was this a large family?

Pardon?

IB:

Large family that your mother had to try to take care of?

Frahm:

I only had one brother.

IB:

Ah huh.

Frahm:

We live on north Pennsylvania, it was an apartment also by the way
now.
And ah, I remember I -went, I was in the sixth grade I remember
going to school, Oak Park School and a kid came up this way he said,
Art, he said something about some big event had happened, ..... so I
went downtown and got some papers, so

IB:

IA:

Oh oh.

Oh , you could do that if ..... they put on extra, they'd take on
extra help

Frahm:

Right, right.

• IA:

Frahm:

How much money would you make from something like that?
copy maybe.

Two cents a

I made $6 that day.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 22

IA:

Six dollars for selling papers all day.

Frahm: That was a lot of money at that time.

IB:

IA:

That's good.

Yeah, you worked on the streets in downtown Lansing shouting out that
you had

Frahm:

So from that point on I was a newsboy downtown.
downtown and I built myself a route with the stores and offices and
departments downtown.

I sold papers

IA:

Oh you did.

Frahm: I had 40 some customers. That was a private route, nothing to do

with State Journal.

IA:

Ah huh.

Frahm: That was a good thing too.

IA:

How would you build a route? You'd go in to say Arbaus(?) and you'd
say I'd like to come in here and sell papers?

Frahm: Right.

But like in dress shops, you know, and candy stores and so

forth, and those people were always nice to me.

IA:

you were a kid.

Frahm: But it was .....

•

•

IA:

IB:

Right.

Well and it did a service for them, because they didn't have time to
run out and

Frahm: Oh sure that's right.

IB:

If it is cold or was there one edition a day then? Or did you do
this like, was there a morning edition and an evening edition?

Frahm: No it was in the afternoon edition.

IB:

After school?

Frahm: Yeah, after school. The paper came out at 3:00, I was there probably

at 4:00. And I'd get home probably about 6:00 then. And I'd sell
papers in between times and in the summertime, of course, it was full

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 23

all every day.
a rainy day, you can't sell papers.

And there was a again some funny incidence because on

iB:

Is that right.

Frahm:

They just don't sell. No, now seriously. And I remember, I think I
was about 10 papers ... sold them I'd go up and get 10 more.
Walking
down Michigan Avenue papers rainy day, oh what amI
these papers?
piece of paper two $1 bills.

I looked on the cover full of water, there was a green

going to do with

IB:

Oh my goodness.

Frahm:

Put the papers in the wastebasket, in the trash can and went home.

IB:

Oh my goodness.

Frahm:

And these people who were my customers downtown, I had some wonderful
people, customers.
was one called, Penn, I'll never forget her, this woman, she says
Art, she said, would you feel bad if I gave you an overcoat that my
nephew had.

I remember some of the dress shops, Penn, there

I said no.

IB:

No.

Frahm:

Well the day before Christmas she has a box all nicely wrapped

IA:

Oh that's nice.

Frahm:

and it was a beautiful coat from Marshall Fields.

IA:

Oh my.

Frahm:

And I look and it had never been worn.

IA:

Oh my.

Frahm:

Another customer I had was a fellow that ran an appliance operation
up on Capitol Avenue right now where that ah, it is on the corner of
Capitol and ah, Washtenaw.
Like there is a Michigan Accident Fund I
think is that building.

Anyway

IA:

Oh yes.

Frahm:

•

Mr. Crisp, I'll never forget. One day I was down in the summertime
selling papers, he overhauls
lunch yet.
I said
I'm not really ..... Ah he says come on they won't even see that. We

He said how about have lunch with me.

really, and he says you had your

I said no.

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 24

went into ah Murry Stewart's it was really a top-notch restaurant.
He had done this repeatedly too.

IB:

Oh Murry Stewart?

Frahm: Yeah.

IB:

Restaurant.

That was right on Washington Avenue?

Frahm: No it wason Michigan, right down between Washington and Grand.

IB:

IA:

Okay.

And he'd let you order whatever you wanted?

Frahm: Yes.

I'll never forget roast beef, there was more than I had at home

for a family.

IA:

IB:

Oh my goodness.

And this was all during the '30's.

Frahm: Yeah. Now I graduated from that, I was selling papers, I had this

•

customer that had the Upper House Cleaners which was hats and
clothing and shoe shine parlor. And George said to me one day, how
would you like to shine shoes? I said how much does it pay. Well
more money than I could make on newspapers, so I said fine. So he
taught me there and I worked for him all the way through part of
junior high and high school. And ah, I got so I could shine .shoes
with white flannel
blindfolded almost.

do that so good that you can do it

IB:

Yeah, really.

Frahm: And then another nice thing about it was there were two Greeks,

George Poulis and George Pascus, Big George and Little George.

IB:

Oh yes.

Frahm: And they more or less adopted me.

They knew I had a bad situation at

home.
I used to go to all the Greek weddings and baptisms and ...
I'll never forget the first time we went to a wedding on Sunday in
Jackson, a Greek wedding, bit affair, lots of food, wonderful time.

IB:

Yeah.

Frahm: And I worked for them a long time.

IA:

What did you do with the money you made?

•

• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 25

Frahm:

Well really I used it to buy clothes.

IB:

Clothes for yourself, so you .....

Frahm:

Because I had to keep myself dressed.
anyway, but at least it helped.
even that kind of business you run into some strange incidents.
day a guy came in for a shoe shine and it was on Saturday morning,
and his shoes were rather filthy, sawdust and a shine at that time
were 10 cents.
the change and he said forget it.

He got down and handed me a dollar and I went to get

I banked a little bit too.

I didn't make that much

One

They ah,

IB:

Wow.

Frahm:

That is something.
Every time I'd get done he'd give me a dollar.
was the owner of Farmer Peets Packing.

So from that time on, I was just shoe shine boy.

I come to find out he

IA:

Oh that's interesting.

Frahm:

• IB:

Frahm:

Well he got a good shine from that time on.

Oh, did you have a regular shoe shine stand in one of the buildings
or?

Pardon?

IB:

Did you have a regular shoe shine stand in one of the buildings
downtown?

Frahm:

No it was they owned the building and had about five, ahfive
you might say in the building.

stands

IB:

And I guess I'd forgotten where that was.

Frahm:

It was next to the Gladmer Theater when that was still open.

IB:

Oh north Washington.

Frahm:

Right.

North Washington.

IB:

Okay, and it was a cleaners.

Frahm:

Yeah, Opera House Cleaners.

IB:

• Frahm:

IA:

Opera House Cleaners.

Okay, thank you.

I still keep in contact with their children.

Oh really?

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 26

IB:

And you decided to go in to the plants because you thought it was a
good opportunity for you?

Frahm: Yes the money was there, that's

IB:

It was good money?

Yeah.

Frahm: Right. Now I didn't have any other.

I really didn't have any other

experience or ah, knowledge, I probably could have in some other
field, but

IA:

We asked you about your .... J because lots of other people in the
plant went in because their fathers went in, you now.

Frahm: Yes that's right.

IA:

with your family.

Frahm: Ah huh.

IA:

Brothers, your father, or sometimes even sisters.'

Frahm:

I went to work at Oldsmobile, that was a, when I first went that was
a terrible job.

Gees.

•

IB:

IA:

Frahm:

Well what did you first do?

Why was it terrible?

I went to work, I remember I went to work it was on the midnight
shift because the worst time, you can't sleep, you can't eat, and I
was working running a drill press, drilling

IA:

You were really on the line when you first started. You were really
on the line.

Frahm: Oh god.

IB:

IA:

Drill press is hard work.

Yeah.

Frahm: Drill press, ... big as my hands would always be full of steel

IA:

Oh yes.

Frahm:

slivers. They get festered up and I ... to get out of that.
figured that is no place to make a living. What convinced me for
sure was, right next to me was a little Polish guy and I got to

I

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 27

admire him, but yeah, he'd been on that same job like 20 years.
thought god, I don't want to be like that.

I

IB:

IA:

Yeah.

Ah huh.

Frahm: Because he was an automat, a robot.

So from that point on, I said I

was going to get out of there.
Oldsmobile.
around the plant, so I called, I went to the office of Ken Plasterer,
that is PIa

I thought well inspection is a good .... I had been

So, I looked through the roster .at

s t ere

r.

IA:

IB:

Plasterer.

Just like it sounds.

Frahm: Yeah.

Right.

And he was chief inspector for Oldsmobile.

And I

told, I asked his secretary if I could talk to him.
She says what
about, I said I'd like to go to work in the inspection department.
Yell she said well we just can't let you go in. I says okay, so I'll
wait.
the same

So I went back in two weeks and I took her a box of candy and

and she says well I'll let you know.

IB:

It depends if the candy is good.

Frahm:

So, I went back a week later. Oh she said I'll call you.
thought well I can wipe that one off.

telephone call,

So I

IB:

Yow.

Frahm:

She said this is so and so,Mr.
parti~ular time.
this was daytime.

It was a time when I wasn't working, I was nights,

Pasterer will see you at this

IB:

Ah huh.

Frahm: And so I talked to him and ah he was most discouraging.

He said to
me, of course, you know you are going to take a pay cut if you come
to work for inspection. I said I don't care, I want to get off that
production job. And he didn't give me much encouragement.
kept bugging and one day I got a, one day I was at my job in
production and the foreman came over and says, we got a slip for
transfer. Oh that will ... day. And that was, and that was days all
the time too. And the first inspection job wasn't the best, I'll say
that. But I kept bugging there again too.

But I

IB:

Yeah.

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 28

Frahm: Because it was a job where you checked the to make sure that the

transmission and differential had oil in them. A dirty job.
was a step away from

.

But it

IB:

IA:

Right.

It was a start.

Frahm: And then I remember that I kept bugging this foreman to an opening

somewhere else. That moved to receiving inspection which was
wonderful. And then from there, it went to ah, detail car
engineering.

IB:

Your education probably helped a little bit.

Frahm: Yes, I think it did.

IB:

Because you had high school and some college too.

Frahm: Right.

IB:

IA:

Um, were you there during the strike in '37?

Well he didn't start until '4...

Frahm: Yes I was.

IB:

There was a strike at Olds too. Oldsmobile, wasn't there?

Frahm: I don't remember that strike.

IB:

I think there was.

Frahm: That's funny.

IB:

Maybe I'm wrong.
that I've done on Reo. Reo had a big strike in '37.

Because I haven't done all the work on Oldsmobile

Frahm: Oh yes they did have.

IB:

Yeah. Maybe it wasn't that big a deal. They had a big Olds GM had a
big strike in Flint too.

Frahm: Oh that's right, I remember that. Very destructive strike wasn't it?

IB:

Right.

That was very violent. Reo was not.

Frahm: Oh that's right.

, .

.

•

•

•

• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 29

IB:

Yeah.
remember anything about that?

And then in '37 in June, they had the labor holiday, do you

Frahm:

What?

IB:

Obviously not.
remember when the city went closed down.

There was a big labor holiday in June of 1937,

Frahm:

Oh yes, yes I do.

IB:

Do you remember that?

Frahm:

Right, I do.

IB:

What did you do?

Frahm:

I don't remember.

IA:

I wonder if the schools closed too on that day?

IB:• IA:

IB:

No it was just the businesses.

Because I read the newspapers.

What about the State Journal must have been closed that day then.
Maybe you didn't sell papers.
report.

Although they would stay open and

Yeah they were open.
marched downtown and WD, they marched to East Lansing, got into
fights with the students.

Yeah, they were open. And they had the workers

Frahm:

Oh I do remember that. Yes.

IB:

IA:

The Battle of the Red Cedar it was called.

Oh.

Frahm: A big riot in Flint too.

IB:

That's right.
working at Olds?

Yeah.

Frahm: Yes, yes.

Did you belong to the union then when you were

IB:

But when you got higher up in the inspector jobs, obviously you had
to

• Frahm: No apparently it still was, because I think all hourly people were,

Oh hourly people.

IB:

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 30

Frahm: belonged to the union.

•

IS:

Okay. So you just, by the time you started in Olds, there was
already a union there.

Frahm: Yes, yes.

IS:

Okay. Do you recall how much money you made say hourly at Olds and
when you started at Reo, you were hourly too, weren't you?

Frahm: No, we were on salary.

IS:

Dh you started in a salary at Reo.

Frahm: Right.

IS:

I was just wondering how the pay scale was then.

Frahm: Right. Oh .... change over the years.

IS:

Hasn't it though. This would have been after the war when you went
to Reo.

Frahm: Right, it was.after the war.

I don't even recall when I started how

much I made at that time.

IS:

I know you said at the beginning though that you made less than when
you had or it seemed like it was less than when you were at Olds
before the war.

•

Frahm: Yes.

IS:

You took a little bit of a cut.

Frahm: Right.

IS:

I know my mother worked at Reo.
was there through the '50's and it seemed like everything taken out,
she could bring home $35 a week say

She started during the war and she

Frahm: Where did she work there?

IS:

She worked in the receiving department, she worked on lawn mowers
later. Ah, she wound the Army chairs .....

Frahm: Oh is that right?

IB:

Urn, yeah.
she was on the receiving docks.

I'm trying to think of what else she did there. I know

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 31

Frahm: What year was this? What year was this?

IB:

Um, when I was in high school'47, '48, '49

Frahm: Oh I just thought I might went there

IB:

Oh ah huh.

Frahm: Right.

IB:

And I think her take-home was,

Frahm: Pardon?

IB:

Her take-home pay was during those years was about $35 a week and I
remember that because our apartment rented for $35 a month and we
thought that we had all the money in the world.

Frahm: Right.

IB:

You know.
didn't have those expenses, but that was considered good money_

But we didn't have a car or anything like that . So we

Frahm: Oh that is unbelievable, inflation.

IB:

Oh isn't it though?

Frahm: Pardon?

IB:

Inflation.

Frahm: Right.

IB:

IA:

IB:

Yeah. By the time you started at Reo, all the strikes were just
about over too. The coal strike and the steel strike and the
railroad strike and

.. got back to the war.

Yeah. And then the changeover to peacetime production and I know
people had to wait on waiting list to get a car or after the war.

Frahm: Right.

I remember that even after the so-called strike there were

strikes periodically at different places and we went through one at
Reo when I was there. I remember that.

Do you? What kind of a strike was that?

IB:

IA:

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 32

Frahm:

Right, because I remember that they have a union got a which was
illegal, I think, they went to jail for it too, they got one of those
big layer(?) c~rs and cut the chains because we Reo had locked them
out.

IA:

IB:

Oh.

Oh they locked the workers out?

Frahm:

Right.

IB:

What was the strike over?

Frahm:

I don't remember.

IB:

Maybe higher payor

better benefits.

Frahm:

IB:

Frahm:

And I remember that at one time I was talking to him, I
are they

I think it was, I don't remember that thing, but that wasn't, you
know, there is again a case where remember back there I was telling
you about Al Axle, I'm good friends with .... today and I remember he
was in personnel, he was a tough guy to deal with.
But he was honest
and fair.
said, what do you, what do you have as far as grievances,
all good ones?
some of the silliest damn things
He had a book there of grievances,
One of them I remember I read distinc.tly.
you could ever imagine.
There was a drinking fountain, let's say at the corner of this desk
and they walked out because they wanted a drinking fountain over in
that corner.
were legitimate.

He says no, he says come over, I'm going to show you.

He says 90 percent of them were unreal.

He says, he says some of them

That is a grievance.

I've heard stories too before about, in fact, from some of the other
people we've interviewed of the safety problem at the shop, at the
Reo.
maybe some of the grievances were for better working conditions.

Machines maybe that cut off fingers and that kind of thing, so

But because see when I was .. on

I used to get in the plant, many, many times every day

Well maybe that was true too.
production,
and I honestly think that some accidents just happen, maybe they are
I think many times the people that work, don't' take
unavoidable.
the proper precautions
And in the press plant, I remember
that all had these wrist ... that pull them back sometimes wouldn't
put them on because they were uncomfortable.

either.

IB:

Ah huh, ah huh.

Frahm:

Now there is an example.

IB:

Yeah.

Um, you said earlier about how the plant was like a family.

•

•

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• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 33

Frahm: Yes.

IB:

We've heard that from a lot of people.

Frahm:

For example, they had an organization called the urn,Steering Wheel.

IB:

IA:

Oh the Steering Gear.

Steering Gear

Frahm:

Steering Gear Club, yeah.

IB:

Did you go to that too?

Frahm: Yeah, in fact, the year I was went out, I was to president.

IB:

IA:

Oh no.

Oh no.

Frahm:

• IB:

Frahm: Oh yeah.

(laughter)

Oh dear. Well Louie Garcia was telling us that was one of the
proudest moments of his life when he got to be president

IB:

of that, it was very proud of that.

Frahm: Very much so. And that was a step I was looking forward for a long

time that when it became real, I was out.

IB:

They used to meet at the clubhouse, didn't they?

Frahm: Yeah, the Reo Clubhouse. Always up on the third floor.

IB:

Ah huh.

Frahm: The floor actually ah, nice club room. Had a big, .... a big ah,

gear.

IB:

Right, a chandelier.

Frahm? A covered chandelier.

IB:

Right.

•

Frahm:

It was beautiful.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 34

,IB:

Right, we heard about the drinks and the all sorts of fun things

IA:

He was telling us also about the things that the ah, Reo was involved
in as far as the community was concerned.
Scout troops and he talked about Red Cross blood drives.

He talked about the Boy

Frahm:

Oh god, they were really involved in that sort of thing.

IA:

IB:

Ah huh.

And all the management

that were in the club did those things too.

Frahm:

Right, right.

IB:

Yeah.

Frahm:

.. Hansen,

... Hansen who was president.

IB:

We've heard his name also.

Frahm:

In fact, he was there before ah, Cappaert bought the place.
and he was just a nice, just a nice guy.
would go through the plant and say hi George and just, he was a how
you doing.
factor for any organization.
him, he was from Chicago, he came there from Diamond T which became
merged with

And he was interested in people, which I think is a good

And he was, he had strange things about

He was a kind of a guy that

Yeah,

IB:

Right.

Frahm:

He says I got this
that much money,

well, and one thing he saw me in the hallway, he said Art, we need
some new folder charts for the clubhouse.
company, it was a name in Chicago
so I told him, I said check and see what you can do.
FOB Chicago, so I, ~ill Dietrich who was a sales rep. that called on
me for many years from George Worthington
wholesale hardware house, they have, they had everything.
Bill I said what can you give me on a lot of 500 folding chairs,
metal.
And I said, ah, I've got to have some information
so I'll call you back within an hour.
was under the price that he had.
so I took it in, he said that's amazing.

quick here,
And ah, I got the price and it

Plus it would deliver to our dock.

Let's go and get em.

Company in Lansing,

And that was

I called

.. $500,

IB:

He was general manager,

Frahm:

Yeah, he was a nice guy.

IB:

before Cappaert, was he.

•

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•

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 35

Frahm:

He was a fellow that was very, very ah, supportive and active in the
Scouts.

IB:

Oh he was.

Frahm:

Boy Scouts.

IA:

IB:

I see.

Now Mr. Cappaert apparently was not a person who would come in and
get to know anybody or wanted to do anything specific minded or

Frahm:

Right, he was very distant.

IA:

IB:

He wasn't from the area either.

No, according to what we've heard so far had no interest really in
having Reo continue on.

Frahm:

No, no, no, his, his prime interest was to just to liquidate the
place.

IB:

Tax write-offs.

Frahm:

And the thing that upsets, I think so many of us is the fact that he
was very critical of what we had done in the past.
better method to show us or a better way to do it or an alternate.

Yet he had no, no

IA:

IB:

Right.

He just wanted to

Frahm:

Yeah, that's right.

IB:

IA:

IB:

Frahm:

do away with it.

Yeah.

But you all had the feel there in the early '70's that the place
wasn't going to stay maybe, that you kind of think that it was
shakey?

Well I think it was, well it was to a, yeah it was to a degree and
particularly I think when the rumors and actual selling, selling of
the company.
happening.

then it became a whirl of what's

Then then then,

IB:

I see.

Frahm:

And we were all .... what was happening too, of course.

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 36

IB:

Sure, you were going to lose your jobs and your benefits
all worked so hard for.

that you've

Frahm:

In fact, I never get the girl that was secretary, Betty

Yeah.
Gordon, she was just a prince of a gal and she retired, she has
passed away but she retired and before the closing, you might say, so
At the end they cut her pension right in half.
she drew her "pension.

IB:

Even after she'd retired?

Frahm:

Right.

Now that happened to the other guys too, other people there.

IB:

So they had no loyalty, they had no ah ,

Frahm:

No, in fact, this is not publicized, but I've often wondering how
this could happen, but Cappaert is a known fact that he got $4
million out of the pension fund from the Bank of Lansing and is not
accounted for.

IB:

He just took it and

Frahm:

Took it, that's it.

You know, I want to believe that you always get

Side B

Frahm:

Louie, Louie Garcia .....

IB:

Yeah, we heard all about it.

Frahm:

Now imagine

IB:

Yeah, Louie was telling us about this man who lives like a king and

Frahm:

Yeah.

IB:

Frahm:

um, and I kept thinking what you just said that some day there has
got to be, um, we also had heard that a lot of people, when the end
came, and lost their pensions and lost their jobs, a lot of them,
some of them committed suicide.

In fact, this may be interesting another point too .

Oh yeah.
....... all this time, there was a fellow upstairs, Bob Block who
headed up the accounts receivable department and he had I think like
the retirement ah, requirement was to retire was 30 years .... full
pension, 29 years he was let off.

IB:

IA:

Oh.

Oh.

' ..

","

j

•

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•

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•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 37

Frahm: And he went home and he actually ah, didn't commit suicide, but he

literally did, because he went home and he just cut out living. He
had a wife at home

IB:

Just withdrew from

Frahm: Yeah, in fact, I used to call him and lid say Bob, it was a nice day,

I got a couple tickets for Michigan State football, I knew he liked
football, I said let's go out and see the game.
No I can't go out,
the phone might ring.

IB:

So ....

Frahm: Yeah, he was

IA:

They might call him back.

Frahm: Yeah. And I think, in fact, his sister I remember wrote in the

Journal what a foul thing happened that actually caused this man's
death. And I think others in which we don't know about j I'm·sure
this happened many times.

IA:

So she wrote to the State Journal, a letter to the editor or
something you are saying.

Frahm: Right.

I remember the letter in the State Journal.

IA:

Oh is that right?

Frahm: Yeah.

IA:

Ah Bob what, B 0 c k.

Frahm: Yes.

IA:

Okay.

So there were all kinds of

Frahm: And so

IA:

things that this man caused. All these lives that he

Frahm: Right.

IA:

touch in the same way.

Frahm: See the thing I think

at the very last ah,

Clare Loudenslager tried to raise money in the area to bring the
plant back into operation.

IA:

Oh he did.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 38

Frahm: And just by, there wasn't enough funding available to salvage it.

IA:

They would have, hopefully, been able to buy it from Cappaert and
keep it going.

Frahm: Right, right, right.

IB:

Yeah, there has been a lot of efforts in the last 20 years of the
workers trying to buy the plant.

Frahm: Right, well some of the employees

IB:

Employers, yeah.

Frahm: right, you know they are over at Charlotte

IB:

Right.

Frahm: at Spartan.

IB:

That's right. Oh that's right, Louie told us that too.

Frahm: Yeah,

.. several
years ago, the president of that firm invited us over there for a
plant tour luncheon.

operations. And Louie told us

IB:

IA:

Oh how nice.

Great.

Frahm: That was nice, the whole group, we went over there.

IA:

Great, great.

Frahm: We had a good time. Of course,

IA:

I think it is nice the way Lisa mentioned the family.
I think it is
so unique the way all of you folks still stay together and Ed Rankin,
we talked with him last week and he gave me um, rosters, picnic
rosters all through the years where people in Florida that were real
retirees, all of it together, they get together a lot ... in Lansing,
and I can't think of anyplace else in Lansing, where that happens.

Frahm: No I don't think there is anything like that.

IA:

Especially a big place. A shop.

Frahm: Right. At one time, I don't remember the number, but I know that

there were over 2,000 people

4,000

•

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 39

IB:

During the war, yeah.

Frahm:

Right.

IB:

In the '20's they had over 5,000 every year.

Frahm:

That's right.

IB:

That was the heyday when they were making cars and everything.

Frahm:

You know, you know that um, that automobile they built, it is

Right.
a strange thing how you can reminisce and think about this.
When I
got my first car it was a used car and ... it was a Pontiac and it
And this one friend of mine was a sort of an amateur
was a junker.
mechanic and we took and overhauled the engine.
Why we got one of
the.rod caps on backwards and we couldn't break it loose, so his
father, my father had a Diamond and had a Reo Royal

IA:

Oh he had a Reo Royal.

One of the big classics.

Frahm:

•

Great big car and felt like a truck and powerful as a truck.
let's he asked a guy to borrow the car and he hooked a chain on the
front of mine on the back of his and tried to break that thing.
You
know, have it out of gear and then put it in gear and see if it
break.
back side window and see my ... smoking, and the wheels weres tanding
still and he was still going.

I'll never forget looking out the

We couldn't break loose.

He says

IB:

We've got a Reo Royal out here on the floor.

Frahm:

I know you have.

I know you have.

IB:

You've seen it.

Frahm:

A beautiful car.

IB:

IA:

IB:

It is beautiful.

Yes.

It looks like it is right out of a gangster movie.

Frahm:

Right.

IB:

Huge.

My dad called it

Frahm:

Al Capone and his boys.

IB:

Yeah, there you go. My dad called them Royals.
one a Royale, the same car, but he, he talked about ah,a

I guess we call this

problem

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 40

with the car if you went around the corner the door might fly open or
something. He said they weren't

Frahm: Yeah, the doors were hung the wrong, the other way.

as.

The back door

IB:

Yeah, but he said something about 1'm trying to remember.
about the car not really being stable or something. Ah, because of
maybe too big for the frame or something.

Something

Frahm:

I remember that was one of the first ones to put the automatic
transmission on, too.

IB:

That's right.

Frahm:

I remember my father-in-law had one and and ah, he tried to work on
it, he wasn't a mechanic.

IB:

We've got one of the last Flying Clouds out here too, the 1936 and
that was the last year -that they made cars there.

Frahm: What year was that?

IB:

IA:

1936.

'36.

Frahm:

'36.

IB:

IA:

Ah huh.

Yeah, they had never really come back form the Depression as far as
car sales were concerned. And they just got further and further in
the hole, so they finally stopped building cars and went to trucks.

Frahm: Yeah, the other cars were really coming up then too, weren't they?

IB:

But a lot of the books I've read about it said that building the
Royale was a stupid move in the '30's, .... a cheap

Frahm: Yeah cheap.

IA:

IB:

IA:

Transportation.

People didn't have money for

Not these big you know

(mass talking)

•

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•

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 41

Frahm:

Luxury automobiles.

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

Frahm:

The other direction and made something more inexpensive and smaller
and more ....

Well they did strip down there the ah , the '34, '35 and '36 I.think
the cars were more of a strip down version, they didn't have as much
chrome on and they were trying to make them more cost effective, I
think.

Yeah, it may have been too little too late.

I remember neighbors of ours bought a car and cars when

Oh I think it was, because by then they were already you know, money
in the hole.
I was a little kid I remember being either black or cream colored.
I'm sure there were others, in fact, I know there were, but that's
what you saw the most of and they bought a cream colored um,
And it was a 1936. And it cost $600.
Oldsmobile.
not get over that and most people didn't have cars in the '30's
because of the Depression.
got a job at the Reo later, but he had to walk from Holt to Lansing
And maybe they worked a few hours a day and
every day for his job.
send them home.
But anyway, all the neighbors came for like a mile
or two and walked over to this house to see this car and my dad just
kept, and nobody would tough it, they just kept walking around it.
You know, it was such a jewel
over that.

Very few people had jobs .My

And my dad could

He couldn't get

$600, oh $600.

dad finally

You can'teven by a used car for that anymore.

Oh no, you can't buy anything for that anymore.

I think about them
the Williams W,
believe really.

when I go out to Frandor, on the left side is

I see a sign there Ws

$11,000.

That is hard to

IB:

Yeah, it is incredible isn't it.

Frahm:

Incredible.

IA:

Automotive industry has come from nowhere to its infancy to a giant
and now we don't know what is going to happen to this generation.

Frahm:

That's right.

I wonder.

IA:

Urn, you earlier on you said you had sort of expressed regret, you
know, if you had been with Olds .

Frahm:

Yes.

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 42

IA:

Olds retirement and stuff wouldn't have been in a big problem and you
would have had continuous employment and seniority and all that. Was
there any benefits.for being at the Reo though. I mean as a place to
work that you think maybe would have been different if you had stayed
at Olds.

Because it was a smaller place.

Frahm: Well I think again the family factor.

IA:

Okay.

Frahm: That's one of the prime things.

IA:

Right, the fact that you guys were all very friendly and belonged to
the club and

Frahm: Done things together and

IA:

Yeah, you don't think you would have had that kind of a thing if you
had stayed over at Olds.

Frahm: No, no, that's true, very true. And ah , I think at the time the pay

scale was comparable to

IA:

It was about the same.

Frahm: Right.

IS:

IA:

Oh were they.

I wondered about that.

I don'~ know if it would be if the two were still on the line, but
perhaps maybe for, you know, supervisory people the model is pretty
competitive.

Frahm:

I don't know, like I say, that is something that you can't back ....

IA:

IB:

No.

No.

Frahm: Ah just for contrast, I have a son who is 41 years old. When he was

in high school he was a real problem, gees. My wife and I thought
he'd be down in Jackson Prison

We were just terrified.

IB:

Did he go to high school here in Lansing?

Frahm: Yeah, he went to Sexton.

IB:

Sexton, yeah.

•

•

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•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 43

Frahm:

And he, every day, every other day he'd fight with someone.
had to put him in a
said dad, he said if I'm again I don't want to be discrimination, he
says if a white guy stuck together there, we could have licked our
problem at Sexton.
recess time and three or four blacks would nail him.
says I just couldn't put up with that.

But, he said if the white guy would go out at

but he told me at the time, he

I'd fight back.

He said and he

So we

IB:

A lot of racial discrimination you are saying.

Frahm:

I just got up and .... crazy, so I took, I
I spent three

Right.
And I was just going to say that ah, the funniest thing, when
I got out of Diamond, when I let out of Diamond Reo, I was really at
my wits end as you can imagine, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I
walked the floor at night and one day I told my wife, I says I'm
going to get out of here.
went to the bank, got some money and drove to Florida.
weeks in Florida.
night too and come back I got my son back .... straight.
son I think that time got out of high school, he wanted to go to
college and wasn't sure he wanted to go.
business ah,
experience working with some fellows out there in East Lansing, so we
were doing primarily porches and decks and ah, ah, we got to be
experts on hanging doors.
rooms. We got some good jobs.

But, so he went into
and we were, he had some

I walked the beaches every day and part of the

We do bathrooms over, ah, recreational

The time my

IB:

It was a lot of building going on then.

Frahm:

Oh yes there was.
But then we learned after, shortly thereafter,
when Diamond Reo shut down completely, all those same people went
into the same kind of business.
couldn't believe it.

God we had so much competition we

IB:

Oh in the construction business?

Frahm:

Oh god.

IB:

Is that right?

Frahm:

People, people, guys would bid less than our material costs and you
can't make, you can't win.

IA:

No.

Frahm:

•

And we were put on the bid list, Social Services Department of the
State of Michigan, we'd get I put 30 some thousand miles on my car
one year just running bids, running down bids.
head of the Social, I said take my name off the list.
He says why, I
says I got a file here that would choke an ox, bids we've made, never
got any business.

He says we'll see about this.

Finally I called the

Well we started

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 44

And
getting a little business from him.
it kept going less and less every year, so he finally got discouraged
and left, went to Florida. Well he is a very aggressive individual I
got to.say that.
Builders, with Marcony, but McCony Builders and they were building
homes in the Whitehills price range.

He got a job with an outfit called ah , MaCony

But it still wasn't enough.

IB:

In Florida?

Frahm: Right, in Florida, it was around the area where Tarpon Springs in
And they were building homes in the area of modern

So I went to Florida that one year and to

that vicinity.
safety, $200,000.
specifically to see him and he showed me the houses and boy they were
custom made, beautiful, beautiful homes.
One year with them and they
made him construction superintendent. And the funny thing was how
things fall in place.
They were building a home for an executive of
Levi Strauss in that area, and my son became acquainted with him and
The guy was married and had a couple children
played golf with him.
and they got to be friends. And one day this fellow asked him, did
you ever think of going into sales?
(laughter) Well, he thought
about it and he said well maybe so. So, he called me at home, he
I said well, why don't you keep
says what do you think about it.
...... and he did and I never forget Thanksgiving came and he got a
call to go to New York City, Levi headquarters and he had three
interviews that day and my wife and I went there and my daughter came
Well, the
down from Cornell, so we had a week there in New York.
typical thing and I said how did it go, he says boy it was rough.
said what you should do now is sit down and write letters to all
three of those individuals.
So my
daughter got a typewriter from down the hotel, typed the three
letters and mailed them. And of course, ..... interviews they told
him we'll call you.

He says that's a good idea.

I

IB:

Don't call us, we'll call you.

Frahm: Right.

Anyway, this was Thanksgiving time, so it was ... December
and he kept because I said don't get anxious, something is going to
happen.
any encouragement.
call to report to Atlanta, Georgia for sales training.

He said maybe I should call ..... he did, they didn't give
But, it was the first week in January he got a

IB:

Wow.

Frahm: And ah, I don't remember, yeah, that's right, he was therefor

two

weeks and then they assigned to ah, North Carolina and he was there
for some time, they moved to South Carolina and then they moved him
He was there five years and god he makes
to Springfield, Missouri.
five or six times what I used to make.

IB:

Yeah.

•••.

-,

t-

•

•

•

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•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 45,

Frahm:

God and my top money and ah now he's been transferred to Nashville,
Tennessee and got a promotion and is doing real fine.

IB:

I guess he didn't end up Ln-dackson Prison.

Frahm:

Pardon?

IB:

I guess he didn't end up in Jackson Prison.

Frahm: Well I can't believe that, that ah they have Levi Strauss treats

their people real well.
has got an investment fund that is worth half a million dollars.

Now he's been with them 10 years and ah, he

IB:

Wow.

Frahm:

And they have more activities going on, sales meetings in
San Francisco, New Orleans, New York City, you name it, god it seems
like .... you have more damn vacation than work.

IB:

You mentioned something that made me kind of think of somebody else,
I wanted to ask you, we were talking about racism.
when you worked at the Reo, were there any, did you have mixed·ethnic
groups working there and did you have any problems?

Do you remember

Frahm: No not at all.

In fact, in fact ah, we didn't have an awful lot of

We had some Hispanics.

black people.
with two black guys.
he was a cement mason and then another guy was the sweeper, they were
just both great guys, funny, always good stories.

One of them was he worked for mix department,

I remember I became acquainted

IB:

And they were treated well there?

Frahm:

Oh treated well ....

IA:

They were old-timers, had they been there for a while?

Frahm: Yes they had been.

In fact, that fellow that was the cement mason,

god I think he had been there like 25 years.

IB:

Oh.

Frahm:

So they'd been there a long, long time. Very, very ah, good workers.

IB:

Well we asked Louie this question and he said oh no problems.
anybody had a problem, it was their problem, not my problem.

If

Frahm:

That's right.
Louie though, everybody liked him.

That's right.

That's right. Well one thing about
He was just a nice guy.

IA:

Yeah, he has quite a personality.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 46

Frahm:

IA:

Yeah, a real personality.
come back with a good reply.

I used to kid him a lot.

He was always

Yeah, but I see a common thread running through you fellows from
You all are aggressive and you are assertive and you
supervisors.
are smart and you know how to, and you don't mind working.
And I
think that is maybe what lifted you guys form the production line
because you wanted to get ahead. And it used to be able to go into a
shop or a place of work and get ahead, didn't it?

Frahm:

You remember that .... time when the quota thing came up on blacks

IA:

IB:

Frahm:

Oh Affirmative Action, yeah.

Yeah, Affirmative Action.

I was, I remember I had my office on the main floor
two white
gals and two follow up men working for me and I had another gal, so I
sent a requisition in for help, my boss approved it, went to
personnel low and behold I got a black gal.

Gees that was a mistake.

IB:

Was this because of the government contracts you had to have
Affirmative Action?

Frahm: Yes, yes.

Yes.

Gees what a, what a situation I went in to.

She was

single mother

IA:

Oh , a single parent, yeah.

Frahm:

God there was more absenteeism than there was work

As a rule Monday morning the phone would ring, can't come in, baby-
sitter isn't here or .... the baby is sick or she'd go home on
Fridays early.
time. And then I learned, I hired her as a file clerk, she could not
file alphabetically or numerically.
got to get rid of that gal.
her.
said you are going to have a problem, I said I don't give a damn.
don't want her anymore.

I says I'd rather have nobody than have

Because she fouls things up so bad.

She causes us troubles.

And we had an awful.

God, I kept

I said we

He

I

IA:

But that, the clerical staff wasn't union were they?
clerical staff union?

Was the

Frahm:

I don't think so.

IA:

I don't think so no.

Frahm:

I don't think so either.

IA:

No, but you just had the personnel department had some in

•

•

•

. '

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
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Frahm: Right.

IA:

because of the government, yeah.

Frahm: But finally we got rid of her. Another incident that brings back bad

..... was that we hired a fellow from the department that had worked
at one of them accounts payable as an auditor and he was a minister
too. And the sexual harassment thing came up.
girls well enough they wouldn't be telling stories.
girls told me that we had a file room at the back, way to the back,
........ invoice and purchase order records, accounts payable did and
........by herself

And I know these
He said the

.

IA:

Oh no.

Frahm: Or she did go, he'd follow her in there.

IA:

Oh.

Frahm: And then this Ed Bronk had like a hard time getting rid of him too?

The same reason.

IA:

So she had recourse, she had a place to go when this was happening.
She had someone she could talk tell this to and some action would be
taken.

Frahm: Well I should talk to her supervisor, of course.

IA:

Ah huh.

Frahm: And, but that was about as far as it went.

IA:

Yeah.

Frahm: He in turn complained to the Personnel Department, but they just got
the same story, you are going to have troubles. Well god if this is
what's happening, we don't want that kind of people.

IA:

Yeah.

That was pretty recent though, that was already,

Frahm: Yeah.

IA:

the company wasn't going to last much longer beyond .....

Frahm: Right, exactly it was on the tail end of it.

IA:

.. in the '70's already.

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 48

IB:

I suppose the people at the very top didn't care all that much
because you know, about solving problems, because they knew they
weren't going to be there.

Frahm: That's right. The end was nearer.

IB:

Yeah, yeah. And so they fired you. Mildred gave you your papers?

Frahm: Yes. God, that was a really shocker.

IB:

It is horrible. It is a horrible thing.

Frahm: And you know the thing I think was most embarrassing was the fact

that of being in a capacity where I was, I had a parking place back
of the office building down below. Not in the garage, but I at last
had a parking place. I'll never forget, we had to take our personal
things from the box and then we had plant protection go-through and
see that you weren't stealing anything.

IA:

Oh.

Frahm: And that really rubbed me.

IB:

IA:

After so many years.

So demeaning.

Frahm: Who would want anything that wasn't

IB:

That was just another way to humiliate you almost, it seems to me.

Frahm: Yeah, that's exactly right. We had a black fellow there that oh he

was more or less the messenger. He was, he washed cars, he done
errands for the brass and talk about a real nice guy, .... we all
liked him.

.

.

IA:

Ottis what?

Frahm: Ottis Dumas, I'll never forget him.

IA:

Ottis what?

Frahm: Ottis Dumas, Dum

a s.

IA:

Oh okay. Did he come to give you your message then?

Frahm: No, no, as I said when I got my slips I was told just to leave.

IB:

Yeah.

•

•

•

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Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 49

IA:

So right then, right now.

•

Frahm: Right then, right now, yeah.

In fact, did Louie mention anything

about UID, I can't remember the clubhouse?

IB:

IA:

Yeah he did.

He did, the manager of the clubhouse?

I remember that.

Frahm: Vern Haig.

IA:

Oh I think so. H a i g. I think so.

Frahm: Vern Haig, I'll never forget that. He was down, he was in the garage
at that time, I guess he was gettiRg Hansen's car ready to go
someplace. And he saw me come in. He said what happened?
him.
shouldn't be.

I told
He had tears in his eyes, I'll never forget that. Well that

IA:

IB:

No, no.

Must be a lot of you supervisors were let go .

Frahm:

Oh yeah, see there was 37 of us in this group that filed class action
suit against Diamond Reo.

IB:

Oh you did after you were fired?

Frahm:

And then we filed and then we in turn when Diamond Reo went

Right.
bankrupt we transferred the suit to White Motors and they went
bankrupt.
And we were suing for severance pay, payment of our
hospitalization, sickness insurance and pension for us.

IB:

Right.

Frahm: And ah, we had a Bill McKay was the attorney and we met with him

regularly and ah, I'll never forget the last time we met with him he
said fellows, it is all done.

IB:

Oh.

Frahm: He took on a contingency basis.

So he didn't get anything out of ...

IB:

He told unless you guys won.

Frahm:

That's right .

IA:

But you never got anything from it.

Frahm: No.

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 50

IA:

Never.

Frahm: In fact, one of the, some of the, one of the .... Dan .... he had

like $100,000 and some coming. No way.

IA:

We had a volunteer here at the museum for a time and her husband was
one of the people, he wasn't supervisory, he was production I think,
I don't recall, but urn, he was never able to do anything in his life
again after with the breakup, it just absolutely disintegrated him as
a person, he just sat.

Frahm: The thing I think is puzzling is this. That she selected people

which
head of the engineering, head of the ah, paint department, head of
the assembly department, head of master mechanics department, just
all, all those categories.

would destroy an organization. You know, the

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

You can see the plan, can't you.

Yeah, well they are trying to

Yeah, ..... see how this is happening.

Yeah.

Frahm: Right.

IB:

But my goodness.
she go to Mississippi too do you think?

It is a wonder she got out of Lansing alive.

Did

Frahm: I don't know.

I don't know, I don't know.

IB:

IA:

IB:

It is just a wonder someone ...

Yeah.

Run into her car or something. There must have been some threats
against her.

Frahm: I don't know, probably Louie told you this, but um, Cappaert really

feared for his life because

IA:

Oh is that right?

Frahm: Yeah, because ah, it had been said that some of the hourly people

were determined to get him.

IA:

Um, so did he have bodyguards or

"

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 51

Frahm:

IB:

IA:

It was a, really because you can imagine this SOme of

I think so.
these, you know, '" of these hourly employees got, hell some of them
got 40 years in there they were let go.
Yeah.

I think this is the husband's that I was just telling you about, I
think that was his situation and he got a tiny percentage eventually
of his pension.

I don't know, 2 percent or something.

Frahm:

It is very insignificant.

Well see ah, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Association gives us a
little money each month.
getting.
I think that most of the people
that were let go that particular time and that's 37 or more Whatever
it was, they were all in the category of where they would be drawing
$700 plus retirement for a month.
So that was qUite a blow to find
Out that one day you are going to have it and the next thing you are
going to have nothing.

It is very, that's probably what he is

IA:

And it is too late in life to get another job anYWhere else and you
.... unless you bUild another

Frahm:

See the thing is and to be let out of a job at 50.years old or older,
it is pretty difficult to get a job anymore because the people up
there think about hiring you, they think about I got to pay this
fellow a pension eventually, so that is 15 years, so that wasn't

IA:

I wonder if Mildred Johnson had fears for her safety too and if she
had a bodyguard.

Frahm:

I wonder about that too.

IA:

IB:

Because if she's the one that he the hatchet for '" she could be the
focus of the heat, wouldn't

she?

Yeah.

Frahm:

Right.

IA:

And though this woman that I was speaking of said her husband was,
and she both to this day, very bitter, very bitter and he died.
said and most of what you said earlier about a person almost dying,
almost you could say were murdered because of it.

She

Frahm:

Yeah, that shattered your life.

IA:

And huh and he was never able to pull himself together and he died
and she said she knows that he would be alive tOday if it hadn't put
the stress on his body, because

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 52

Frahm: Right.

That is unfortunate, truly unfortunate.

IA:

It is a sad ending for a place that had such promise and such family
and such

frahm: Oh yes, that's right.

IA:

Capability of production.

Frahm: That's right.

IB:

Yeah, because Glen was the one who talked about how he he .. the
quality of the things produced that were so superior.

Frahm: Oh god they were.

Who was this you say.

IB:

IA:

Glen Green

Glen Green

Frahm: Oh Glen Green oh yeah.

IB:

Yeah, he went on and on about that.

Frahm: Oh yes, super quality.

IB:

And how the plant would make things to order for people, special
orders

Frahm: Right.

IB:

for specific,

Frahm: Custom made.

IB:

custom made, right.

Frahm: Right.

IB:

Which is very rare.

Frahm: Very conscientious.

IB:

Even at that time very rare to find something like that.

Yeah.
just have a couple more questions about your own urn,you know,
personal situation. You said you, when you mentioned only once when
you were talking about being drafted into the Army, you were already
were married and you had a child.

I

Frahm: Yeah a child, right.

•

•

•

• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
Page 58

IB:

Germany.

Frahm:

Right.

My father

IB:

Did they come here before World War 11

Frahm:

Now let's see.

IB:

You were born in 1915.

Frahm:

They must have.

IB:

IA:

Right.

Oh yes, because

Frahm:

Right.

IB:

She must have been very young when she came.

Frahm:• IB:

IA:

IB:

Frahm:

IB:

She must have been.
My dad had a, I'm just trying to remember.
think my dad had a yes, my father had two sisters who came over
later.

So I got to know them.

I knew them.

I

There was a lot of discrimination against German people during World
War I, it was terrible.

There was in World War II too.

Yeah, it was almost even worse than in World War I

In fact, that is an interesting point too.
the Service that there was a thought of ah, oh .... they had
suggested
maybe going to CIA, but

told me about it later that I would be

I remember when I went in

Frahm:

But I was German and they were afraid that I would have other

IB:

IA:

Oh you'd have relatives

Oh sure.

Frahm:

Just kind of remote you know, and

~..

IB:

And yet they would take ... ah, people like that that had relatives
in Germany and make put them in G2 Intelligence because they would be
able then to have contact to consult these people.

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 59

IA:

IB:

IA:

Yeah.

So it can go both ways, can't it.

Did your parents speak German at home?

Frahm:

Right.

IA:

And you learned German too?

Frahm:

Right, I can speak some, I've forgotten a great deal, but this was
helpful to me in World War II because ah, I was what they called
spare parts clerk for an ... maintenance
there for interpretation.

company and ah, I was always

IA:

IB:

Oh.

Yeah.

Frahm:

I'll never forget ah, several times it wasn't too pleasant

Great.
thing to have to do.
at Nuremberg
go downtown.
brewery and he wanted me to make arrangements
our area every week.

But ah, I remember a couple of incidents, over

and the little town of .... (can't hear) said we have to
I need you to interpret, so we went of all things to a

to have beer shipped to

IA:

My dad has stories like this too.

Frahm:

What?

IA:

My dad was over there too, he has stories.
schnapps, not beer.

His stories are about

Frahm:

Yeah, schnapp, anyway, so we went there and of course, they gave us a
treat and told them what we wanted and fine and made arrangements
financially
for ice at the same time.
tanks and put the beer in there

for it and then we went to an icehouse and then arranged

And we got almost a big horse watering

IA:

A trough.

Frahm:

And put the beer and the ice in there.

IS:

Amazing there was a horse trough left in Germany after the war.
we have a volunteer
war and just after and he talked about the total destruction
trying to find anything that was in one piece to do something with,
so

from here who was in Germany at the end of the

and

Um,

•

•

•

•

•

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 60

Frahm:

And we had all the, we would sleep with our cloths

You know there were.tim~vs too when, when we didn't do this
intentionally, I don't think, but one day I remember that we were
sleeping out in the woods and it was like November, oh god it was
cold in Belgium.
on and blankets and whatever, but we still were freezing.
commanding officer came back and called a formation and said, this is
the last time I'm going to sleep in the woods.
he said I just came from Army headquarters and those birds are all
living in Germany residences.
on.
along and I never forget I went to this big beautiful home in
Lonslip(?) Germany, that was ... on the property was a an electrical
parts manufacturing plant, a big plant.

And I remember get, I was always the .... then, theyfd take me

He said we are going to do it from now

We wondered why and

And the

IB:

Oh my.

Frahm:

Garages and everything else under the sun, and our commanding officer
said I want you and I are going to go in that office and talk to
these people.
to get his stuff out of that house, we are moving in.

He said I want you to tell him that he has four hours

IB:

Oh wow.

Frahm:

You know, the guys head just turned red, brilliant red.

IA:

... Army is all about.

Frahm:

And ah, he said something to me in German which I understood

Right.
and objected, of course, very vigorously and he wasn't very nice
about it either.
too.
got one hour to get out now.

But I told him ... he said he just, he just spoiled it, he's

He could have used a little bit of better judgment

IA:

Oh my lord.

Did you know where your parents came from in Germany?

Frahm:

IA:

Well my father came from the eastern
know.

My mother I do not

You don't know.
there,you

wanted to see

Because I was just wondering when you were back

Frahm:

I wanted to go, but it just wasn't possible.

IA:

IB:

Frahm:

•

You mentioned you were in Belgium, were you there

Yeah, we were in France, we were England and France and then Belgium
and then Germany and then back to France and then back to the
Pacific.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 61

IA:

My goodness, you really and you went to the Pacific?

Frahm: .Yeah.

IB:

Oh you really saw a lot, didn't you?

Frahm:

... we went, oh boy that was talking about a sickening bunch of low
moral people.

IB:

To know that you couldn't go home and you had to go on to

Frahm:

IB:

Frahm:

IB:

IA:

Frahm:

for redeployment,

France up on
See we had

company, shop trucks and ah, repair outfits,
So we were up in the mountains

Yeah, we went from, we went from Germany to Marseilles,
the mountains
retooling for Pacific.
185 men and six officers and a lot of mobile equipment because we
were engineering
wreckers and so forth.
getting ready to ship to the Philippines.
the day I went on board ship, everybody went on board ship and we
went through the Panama Canal, so close to home, yet so far.
to the Philippines
were just still, we were there from let's see I got, some of us I had
enough points in December
fine
much sea time as a lot of sailors did, we were 37 days on board that
ship.

So that was
to get out of there in July.
That was the longest, I keep telling that we have as

We weren't there too long, but there

And it was 17,000 some miles.

Boy that was sad because

there and

Islands.

We went

Miles.
Belgium, I was thinking the Battle of the Bulge .... and all of that.

I guess I was thinking when you said

That's a long trip.

With along the way we made friends, of course, to the people.
England, ah, another fellow and I became real close friends of a
family called Victor and Ethel Cordoray, who owned the Jolly Waterman
Pub.
daughter and a son.

They had, I think, one daughter, yeah one

And ah, that used to invite us

Real nice family.

And in

We are keeping you.

No I want to hear this.

And they used to invite us for dinner, go to church with them and
he'd always do little special things for us.
with them for years.
wife and I and one daughter went to Europe.

And we kept in contact
years later to the date almost, my

Twenty-five

IB:

IA:

Oh wonderful.

Great.

Frahm:

And we went to England and ah, we went to their home and we went to
the tavern and it was

•

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• Arthur Frahm

2-10-92
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IA:

Still there?

Frahm:

Pardon?

IA:

The tavern was still there?

Frahm:

Oh yeah, it was still there and I said where is your wife, where is
Ethel.
He says
She is working downtown at this department store.
she is in the book, sell books, so we went down to this department
store and she didn't recognize me.
looking for some Mickey Mouse comics.
know, (laughter) I said you don't know who this is do you?
.
Frahm, oh my god,

She kind of looked at me you

And I says to her, I said we are

Art

IA:

Oh what a reunion.

Frahm: Yeah, what a reunion. And then from there we went toah,

Belgium

which I had ah, this is not the kind of an incident to back when we
were in the Service we ..... and .... opened trucks, you know the
canvas,
lunch break and when we were out of the truck, we was by this one
building and this man said, would you like to come in where it is
warm.
and she made a great big bowl of homemade soup. We had homemade soup
and nice homemade bread.

So another fellow and I went inside and his mother was there

and we stopped at this little town for ah, like a

IA:

Dh my gosh.

Frahm: And it was a Dr. Martin.

And he was a veterinarian.

And they had

•

three children about the same ages as ours.
he went back into the way in the back someplace and he come out with
a dusty bottom of Cognac and give us each a drink of Cognac.
it from the Germans.

And I remember this kid,

He hide

IA:

Dh my.

Frahm: And ah, years later when we were on this rerun, ah, we went to his

home or
them, I think, for two or three days.
English and I couldn't speak any French, so and in that town there is
a monastery that was founded in the year 900 AD and they got a couple
of priests, one from London and one from Boston.

big beautiful brick home, we stayed with
And he couldn't speak much

IA:

Dh so they could translate. Yeah.

Frahm: Yeah and they came over and translate.

And, in fact, the priest

invited us back and we toured that monastery.
experience.

It was quite an

•

IA:

Yeah.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 63

IB:

Oh it must have been.

Frahm: And then back again later we were in Lansing, got a phone ring and

said this is Father Gerard. Oh I said it is the priest from Boston.
He said I'm in Lansing, I'm at the Greyhound Bus Station, I'd like to
see you. He said I got a schedule tomorrow to preach at the
St. Gerard Church.

IA:

Oh yes, oh yes, ah huh.

Frahm: So we picked him up and brought him to our house and ah, we went to
church service Sunday too, of course, that was interesting renewal.

IA:

Reunion.

Frahm: Reunion again.

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

How wonderful.

... my dad did the same thing with our family too.

Really?

He took us back to all the places.

Frahm: And then

IB:

Oh you've been able to ... oh.

I would die to do that.

Frahm: In Belgium, in Belgium we were there in the snowtime, just like real

deep snow, cold and we were .... in private homes there, because
there was no place for setup or anything else. And people were real
gracious about it too.

IB:

Were they and they probably didn't have much.

Frahm: No, Belfontaine was the place and it probably was about the size of

Holt.

IB:

Small town.

Frahm: Small, small village and um,mama, we called them mama and papa

Laserone, he could speak German and French, so I could talk to him in
German and he could interpret to his wife in French. And,you
they were just wonderful people.

Because they

know,

IB:

They were happy to see you too?

Frahm: Oh yeah.

•

•

•

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• Arthur Frahm

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IB:

To see the Americans.

IA:

IB:

Frahm:

I would think.

Yeah.

... said to us, when you get your food at night or whatever, bring it
back to the house and eat it where it is warm.
At least stand out in
the hallway like and and we'd always bring extra bread becaus.ewe had
good bread.

IB:

And you could share that wi th them.

Frahm: Yeah, and, and, one day, ah, I met the baker, we met some other

people in the town too and one day she says to me, ah,tomorrow
going to have something special.
there and she had made French fried potatoes, baked rabbit

Okay. We brought our meal back

I am

IB:

Oh my.

Frahm: God, what a delicacy .

We are not talking C-rations here are we.

• IB:

Frahm: And I don't know how it happened, but one day I was talking to him, I
said what would it take to have the baker bake an apple pie.
went over and saw him.
And ah, he said well he said if you get us
some shortening and some apples, go ahead. God, he baked the pie.
We shared it, of course, with the guys too, but when we came back to
that reunion, when we got, you know, it is funny 25 years had
elapsed.
exactly where to turn it hadn't changed that much and we got down the
street and they knew we were coming there, of course.
We·had written
beforehand, but didn't know exactly when.
And we could see the doors
opening up, the Murphies are here.

I had a car, I rented a car and I'm trying to ... I know

So he

IB:

Oh great, isn't that wonderful.

Frahm:

And we got in the house and the phone rang and it was the baker.

IA:

He was going to bake you another pie.

Frahm:

Right.

IB:

How wonderful.

•

Frahm:

Every place you went, they wanted to give you something to eat,
something to drink too.

IB:

Oh they remembered that is the way it was.

Arthur Frahm
2-10-92
Page 65

Frahm:

Oh yeah.

IA:

Had they been occupied by the Germans before you guys came?

Frahm:

Oh yeah.

IS:

Oh yeah.

Frahm:

Oh yeah.

IA:

In that little village.

Frahm: Yeah.

IA:

My gosh.

IS:

IA:

IB:

My dad was in the Battle of the Bulge.

Was he, I want to talk to you about that sometime.

He was, well he was much younger than you, he was 19.

Frahm:

Oh he was.

IS:

Yeah when he went over.

... "

•

•

•