•

•

"

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 1

IB:

This is February 18, 1992. We're at the R.E. Olds Museum, Shirley
Bradley, Lisa Fine, interviewing Jack Down, volunteer at the R.E. Olds
Museum and Photo Archivist.
REO memories.

We're going to be talking to him about his

IA:

The first thing we need because we haven't gotten this information from
you before is just, you know, your address and your phone number.

Down: Oh, 2510 Haslett Road.

IA:

Okay, you're out by me.

Down: Yeah.

IA:

Is that in Haslett •••

Down: East Lansing.

IA:

Or East Lansing?

Down: East Lansing •

IA:

Oh, so you're right near me.

Down: Where are you?

IA:

In Whitehills.

Down: Oh.

IA:

••••••••• curtis is where I live, and your phone is?

Down:

351-6751

IA:

6751. Okay. And were you born here in Lansing?

Down: Yeah.

I was the first caesarean in Sparrow Hospital.

IA:

Oh, my goodness.

IB:

That's really interesting.

Down: Yeah, it's fascinating.

IA:

Oh, my goodness.

IB:

Was this a new procedure or they just hadn't done it there before?

•

Down: No, they just hadn't done it.

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Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 2

IA:

So were you coming out feet first, is that it?

Down:

I wouldn't

come.

IA:

You weren't

coming.

Down:

I got stuck.

IS:

IA:

You said, I like it in here.

Down:

It was nice and warm in there.

IA:

And what year was that?

Down:

'24.

IA:

1924, Sparrow Hospital.

Were your parents

from here, around here, too?

Down:

My mother's

from Alma.

My dad was from Perrington,

Ithaca area •

IA:

Okay, and were they farm, farmers up there?

Did they keep their farm?

Down:

No, my mother's

brother, brother got the farm.

IA:

When they came to Lansing?

Down:

No.

IA:

Oh?

Down:

My grandfather
old age and so he gave him the farm much to the annoyance
of the family.

made a deal with him that he'd take care of him in his
of the rest

IA:

Oh, yeah, he didn't want to divide it all up amongst the •••

Down:

He didn't want to divide it so my cousin still has it.

IA:

Oh,that's,

up north of here?

Down:

In Alma.

IA:

Oh, great.
Lansing

•••••••••••••

Um, so how long did they stay there and, you were born in

Down:

Well, my, my father came to, went to Michigan
well known agriculturalist.

state, became quite a
In fact, when he died, we were kind of

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 3

amazed, I think my mother and I were both impressed, death notices from
California

and Florida and allover

were sent to us.

IA:

Did he teach over there or just worked in Extension or •••

Down:

He worked, he worked in farm crops, experimental,
teaching

•••••

but he did a lot of

IA:

That's fascinating, when it was the Michigan Agricultural

College.

Down:

When it was MAC and ah, and when it was MS.

IA:

And this was like in the '30 or '40 or •••

Down:

No, he was there from 1917 till he died in the '50s.

IA:

Oh, quite a long time then.
interesting.

He saw change a lot.

Yeah, that' s

Down:

He was head of the department

for a little while.

He didn't want that.

IA:

Um, this is different than the other stuff we've encountered
know where to go from here.
living from this work that he did through the University?

So they, so they, he was able to make a

so I don't

Down:

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

IA:

Did you go to MSU too?

Down:

Yeah.

IA:

You did?

Down:

Um, hum.

IA:

Did you go in engineering?

Down:

I went first in liberal arts 'cause I didn't know what to do.
went to engineering
enough to make it so then I went to business administration
degree with a minor in engineering which turned out to be a rather
unusual, at that time, degree •••

and couldn't make it, at least I wouldn't work hard

and got a

Then I

IA:

Very good now.

Down:

and a very useful one.

IA:

Yeah.

They enco~rage that now, in fact.

•

•

•

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Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 4

Down:

And then my next one was in school administration
the.n my last one was in international
minor in psychology.

education and development

and engineering

and
and a

IA:

Wow, that's a lot of degrees.

Down:

So it makes a very, or made a very good combination.

IA:

Yeah, and so did you go straight from school to REO to work?

Down:

No., I was office manager of Technical Drawing and Design.

18:

Is that here in Lansing?

Down:

That was in East Lansing which was a little, aborted thing that a
professor of mine tried and, well, people would come in and I want this
design and then you'd go out and you'd have a list of engineers
and so
forth that, at MSU, that, and students too, who would then design it
for you and you'd, they'd charge you so much to design it and you'd
charge that person more.
really didn't.
on the wall, it wasn't gonna go and, because
could see the handwriting
I had several customers very happy to come in and leave their job with
us and then the boss would come in, he'd say, well, I'm sure if we can
do that and so on and so on.
do that and then, of course, the guy, well, oh , you can't.
the next thing we knew, the job was gone.

Every customer they got, the scared him away and I

But ah, they didn't know how to run it.

Well, are you sure you can get someone to

Welll

They

and

,

IA:

Yeah.

Down:

I don't think we ever did complete a job except a couple I completed.

IA:

So you moved on from there?

Down:

I heard REO was looking for an assistant

sales
I moved on from there.
engineer and I went and I worked with R.M. Palmer, Robert, I think it
was, M. Palmer and I was there a year and a half and sales engineering
is the go-between between sales and engineering
and we had to put out
all the booklets and drawings and body clearance diagrams as they would
call them where you have a drawing of a chaise and you know that your
wheels are gonna come up so far and this was gonna open so far and this
has to be here and when someone is making a body Ifor a chaise, which
REO sold-a lot of those, they have to have this body clearance diagram.
I made those.

IA:

What year did you start there?

Down:

Oh, you know, that's the thing.
you whether I went there in '47 or '8.
and a half.

I went there in '40, um, I can't tell

Then I was there about a year

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 5

IA:

Were you in the service at all?

Down:

Yeah.

IA:

You were?

During college?

Down:

I, I joined the Army Air Force in '41, '41, went in in '42 and got a
disability
worked at Nash Kelvinator

and was out before the end of '42 and then I

here in town.

discharge

IA:

Oh, okay.

Down:

Airplane

propellers.

IA:

•••••• war work.

Down:

Um, hum, but I went to school at the same time.

IA:

Oh, you went to school, too.
a place to get a job or did you want to work there?

Did you just apply to REO because

it was

Down:

Both •

IA:

It was both.

They were looking for work ••

Down:

I had, when I was in the Army, I had bought a 1912 REO from a junk yard
now, on the corner of Jolly
here in where, well, it's an empty building
and Okemos Road.

IA:

Oh, sure, I know exactly where that is.

Down:

And, ••••••• it was, and I bought a 1912 REO there and I had always
been interested
whether
that REO ever built except the Flying
the REO Royale.

I was there at REO or not .but at one time I had every model

in REOs and I don't know when I got my second REO,

•••••••• (coughing),

no, except

IA:

Ah, huh, the one they made in the '30s.

Down:

Um, hum.
mean the big, boxy '30s.

Well, I had a Royale, too, 'cause I had that '36 REO but I

IA:

Yeah, the gangster

car.

Down:

The gangster

car, yeah.

IA:

So it was an appealing

place to work for you 'cause you liked •••

•

•

•

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Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 6

Down:

It was an appealing place to work for my and I was driving a '22 REO at
the time which intrigued them and be an indestructible car, why I drove
it for years.

IA:

That must of attracted a lo.tof attention.

IB:

It was well built, it was a well built car.

Down:

It was a well built car. I "always tell the story, I was driving down
Michigan Avenue and saw somebody I knew, waved at them and they didn't
see me so I waved more madly and then when I looked around, here was a
Willie's Americar (?), dead still in front of me for a stop light.
I
did lock my brakes, all two of them, and hit him, bent his frame. He
Smashed up the back of his car. He got out
couldn't shut his doors.
of his car holding his neck and his back.

IA:

Oh, my goodness.

IB:

Oh, no.

Down: And I didn't even scratch my bumper.

I didn't break a headlight.

I

didn't dent anything on that REO •

IA:

My goodness.

IB:

I can just imagine.

Down: Well, the police reports, damage to Willie, extensive, damage to REO,

none.

Built just like their trucks and it just ran and ran and ran.

IB:

Built to last.

Down:

It was built to last. It's still running but I don't have it.

IB:

Oh, where is it?

Down: Aw, it was in Texas the last I knew.

IB:

Oh, you sold it. And how many REOs did you say you've had?

Down: Well, I had a 1908.

IA:

Oh, my.

IB:

Oh, my gosh, you did?

IA:

A '12, a '16, a '22, a '27, and a '36 •

IB:

Do you have any of those still?

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 7

Down:

No.

IB:

Don' t you wish you did?

Down:

Yeah, ROW I have a '33 self-shifter
case.
complete

if I ever get started on it.

I mean, it's a genuine basket case but it's all there.

It's

but it's a, what they call a basket

IA:

So how long did you work there?

Down:

Just a year and a half.

IA:

Just a year and a half.

And what happened

then?

Down:

Well, then I went and worked for Standard oil and that was such a
retched company.

To this day, I won't buy anything

from Standard Oil.

IA:

But that was your, the extent of your work at REO?

Down:

That was the extent of my work at REO and one of the jobs I had, I
mean" I was a gopher, no doubt about it, I mean, I was just a young kid
that they needed and who liked
drawings
who could do all the mechanical
to write and still do and so putting out the sales literature
putting out those body clearance

suited me real well.

diagrams

and

IA:

Yeah, how come the job ended?
better opportunity

somewhere

Did you just think you could get a

else?

Down:

Ah, they hired someone else who was a very good engineer
think to this day they wanted an engineer
made me kind of mad and Standard
and I took it.

in that department
came along and offered me a good job

and I don't
but it

IB:

You didn't have any seniority
you hadn't been there long enough.

or anything

so far to worry about 'cause

Down:

Yeah, yeah.

IB:

Who did you work for?

Down:

R.M. Palmer.

IB:

Down:

R.M. Palmer.
was there for you then?

I'm sorry, you did tell us that.

What kind of pay scale

Oh, enough so that a couple years later I went into teaching
wasn't making

It was an increase •

$3,000.

and I

IA:

Oh,so

it wasn't a very good •••

•

•

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Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 8

Down:

Well, nobody was.

IAl

Yeah, after the War.

Down:

Yeah, in the late '40s, I mean, if you made $2,500 a year, you were
paid well enough and you could live on it.

IA:

Um, hum.

Could you support a family on it?

Down:

Well, I don't know about a family but my wifel was teaching
didn't have any kids for four years.
we raised Boxer dogs and our dog had 11 pups and we sold 'em for $75 to
$85 a piece.

We saw to that and one Christmas,

and we

IA:

Wow 1

Down:

I've never been so rich in my life to this day.

IA:

Yeah.

Down:

•

I mean, if we saw something that cost, of course a couple hundred
dollars then was a lot of money"if
hundred dollars, we bought it if we wanted
that cost $200.
REO and neither one of 'em ever took any expelnse.
was $32.

I was driving a car that coat; 25, dollars,

it.. She was driving

we saw something

Our mortgage

a car

and then my
payment

that cost a couple

IA:

Oh, God, that's unimaginable

now, $32.

Down:

Our taxes were nothing.

IB:

And you could buy reams of groceries

for $10.

Down:

Oh, yeah.

We 1ived 1ike king and queen.

IA:

Did you live in Lansing or in East Lansing?

Down:

Ah, Meridian

Township.

IA:

Meridian,

so it was pretty out there.

Down:

Well, we lived right near where Marble School is.
Township then.

That was Meridian

IA:

Oh, sure, sure.

Down:

Then the city came out and grabbed us and brought us in so we moved out
again and that's where we are •

•

• Jack Down

2/18192
Page 9

IA:

Yeah.
place to work.

Was, you sort of, have been implying that the REO was a good

Down:

I enjoyed

it.

IA:

Certainly

compared to Standard Oil, later.

Down:

I started to say I was a gopher and every time that somebody of any
importance,

I know Cain(?), my job was to take him through the factory.

IA:

Oh?

Down:

But I took a lot of people through

And~ I know one time I took the president
that.
the factory probably once every week and maybe more and I'd take
somebody through and so I got to know the factory even though my job
was up in the front office.

and I used to get out into

of Volvo through.

I remember

IB:

You were giving tours.

You'd go through most of the main plant?

• Down:

Oh, I'd take 'em through the whole thing.
REO was exceptional
engines where most of the, I mean, they weren't the hugest truck
manufacturer
consistently

at the time although when I was there, we were
putting out 125 trucks a day.

It was a big plant.

in that it staffed its own bodies and made its own

See,

IA:

And a lot of them for the Army, right?

Down:

And a lot of them for the Army.
didn't need them.

Not so much then 'cause the Army

IA:

Already over, yeah, the War was over.

Down:

The War was over.

IA:

But they picked up again later from what other people have said.

Down:

They picked up again.

18:

For Korea.

Down:

Oh, at one time, REO and GM were the suppliers
as I understand
trucks at cost to keep the line going and that was when they were
putting out 125 trucks a week.

it and I wasn't there, REO made a point of making Army

for the Army.

Later on,

IA:

So production

had dropped?

•

Down:

Production
I was there and so they had, they put out the Army trucks at cost.

and, oh, REO was a busy plant when

had dropped considerably

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Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 10

They were trying to make money on the civilian trucks and,

(coughing)
of course, that was what basically happened.
those, one of those biddings to the Army and were losing money hand
over fist on one of their big jobs and they asked the Army to increase
the amount and where, when Chrysler corporation
very similar, they got it •••

They slipped on ~ne of

asked for something

IA:

REO didn't.

Down:

REO didn't.
his name, I call it Cappert but someone the other day •••

As I read about this man, I don't know how they pronounce

IS:

Cappart.

Down:

called him Cappart.

18:

The men we've interviewed have called him Cappart.

Down:

Cappart, yeah, I mean, Cae looks like •••• to me but ah, I have a
sneaking suspicion because I've been so critical of the man that when
he bought it, he really meant to make it go •

IA:

Oh, really?!

Down:

I think maybe he did.

18:

In the very beginning you think so?

Down:

In the very beginning because he did a lot in making REO a real
beautiful truck.

I mean, it was already a good truck.

18:

He changed the design or the

Down:

IA:

18:

and really fantastically

The truck was an eyecatcher.

Every now and then you see a truck on the road now that

Well, you could buy more paint combinations
beautiful designs and so forth.
chrome on it.
you know the man who's driving it owns it and he's got the bumpers
chromed and the exhausts are chrome and it's painted with the old
circus curlicues and so forth and it's a work of art.
could buy them that way and I don't know whether he went into it
saying, well, if it doesn't 'go, I'll wipe it out and make money that
way or whether that came up later.
end he was a real bastard.

I really don't know because in the

Well, REOs, you

A lot of

Yeah, so we've heard.

I've got some interesting
I brought in that Mr. Rankin •••

literature you might like to look over later.

IA:

Yeah, it was Mr. Rankin •••

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•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 11

Down:

Well, the State of Michigan
did it.

passed the law against what he did after he

IA:

Oh, is that right?

18:

About taking the employees'

pension

fund, you mean?

Down:

18:

Taking the employees'
within the year it was illegal.

pension

fund, within the year, I think it was

Sometimes
been in place in the first place.

it takes an injustice

to bring about a law that should have

Down:

I've always been surprised
shoot him.

that one of those workers

didn't just go and

IB:

I've heard that there were several threats against his life and that he
had bodyguards
back in Vicksburg,

and that he still has bodyguards

and he lives in, he's

where he came from.

Mississippi

Down:

Oh, well, he was from Alma when he came here •

18:

That's true.

That's true.

He came from Vicksburg,

Mississippi.

Down:

Oh, he did?

IB:

Um, hum, yeah, he did and he's quite an entrepreneur
town practically

down there from what I've heard and read.

and he owns the

Down:

This last summer I visited the REO plant in Harrisburg.

IB:

Oh, I wanted to talk to you about that.

IA:

The one in Pennsylvania.

IB:

Tell us about that.

Down:

You see, the Osterlunds(?)

In Pennsylvania.
and I don't know, it probably took them a long time, I didn't really,
he was busy and I didn't really sit down and talk with him although
was awfully nice, took me through the plant, Jim Osterlund,
son of the man who started the factory.
to get their nerve up to do it.

I mean, that's quite a •••

were their biggest dealer

My guess is it took him awhile

he
who is the

IB:

Why is that?

Down:

•

Well, I mean, here REO had just gone bankrupt
take that name or Diamond REO and take that name and start another
factory and you don't do that lightly.

and now they're

gonna

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•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 12

18:

When would that have been, in the mid-'70s?

Down:

Oh, that was '78 I believe.

IB:

They weren't producing
this., before •••

those, any trucks or anything

like that before

Down:

No, they were just a sales •••

IA:

Dealer.

Down:

The dealer.

IB:

They were the dealer.

Down:

In Pennsylvania
point.

and the east, they were the east coast distribution

IB:

Then they decided to start producing

their own.

Down:

So they started producing

their own REO •

IB:

Well, that's a change from being a distributorship

to being a •••

Down:

Quite a bit but they waited nearly four years in there before they
started and they've been, I think they feel they've been quite
200 trucks
successful.
everybody
we don't build one till it's sold and •••

is down and, but he says, we made money on everyone

Now this last year, they only produced

'cause
'cause

IA:

That was the old REO philosophy.

IB:

Yes, yes.

Down:

And do you know what Mack Truck lost last year?

IB:

No.

Down:

I think it was $280 million.

IB:

REO trucks are made in just about anything
If you had a special order •••
used to be.

anybody would want like they

Down:

No, no, no.

IB:

No?

Down:

You buy their standard truck.
Diamond REO Giant and it is.
.name plate was this far about my head and you have to buy that.

It's seven feet to the name plate.

Itis call the REO Giant and, their

The

But

•

•

Jack Down
2/16/92
page 13

then you can buy that in any length, wheelbase
a cab, with a cab, whatever
body style without

for the practicality
you want.

or

IA:

Different

specifications.

Down:

Different

specs, yeah.

18:

They've been making cabs that would haul, rig~, like the •••

Down:

You can get non, you can get a non-road
you want.

rig.

You can get a sleeper if

18:

Delivery

trucks?

Down:

And, well, nothing small.

18:

I didn't, no, I really meant the bigger delivery
than a sleeper.

trucks but smaller

what they're building

is off-road

delivery

trucks for

Down:

Basieally
gravel •••

18:

Oh, okay.

IA:

Oh, really, the big, heavy duty things.

Down:

Big, heavy duty things.
a couple of years ago that now will make a package dump body and I
forget how many tons, huge.

They have a local company that they discovered

18:

Did they have, how could they go ahead and use the name again?

Down:

They bought it.

18:

They bought it.
Hum, that must of been an expensive

They bought the rights and the patents

and whatever.

proposition

to get started.

Down:

To get started, you bet.

That's why I think that they waited

so long.

18:

Where in Pennsylvania

is this?

Down:

Harrisburg.

18:

In Harrisburg.

Down:

•

Well, I, I looked in the phone book and I couldn't
I was there and I wanted to see it and then I looked under truck
manufacturing
other name and I called up and the girl on the phone, she says, Diamond
REO and that sounded so nice.

and sure enough, what did they call it.

find it and,' cause

They had some

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Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 14

18:

How nice to hear that again.

Down: Yeah, and they have 1911 REO sitting in their showroom.

IA:

Oh, yeah?

IS:

Oh, they do?

Down: Urn,hum.

18:

How many people does this factory employ would you think?

Down:

They were, as he said, an a no sales vacation.
for two weeks.
four or five employees.
quite a few dozen.

Nothing was going on while I was there.

There were
I really don't know but there'd have to be

They had closed down

IB:

I was just curious.
REO.

I was just thinking from the old days of Diamond

Down: Oh, when I was there and we were making 125 trucks a day, there was

thousands of employees. That was a busy plant •

IB:

Do you remember anything about safety or working conditions or •••

Down: Well, it was an awfully old plant. Remember when it caught fire, when
it was burned, whatever, after the thing was empty, I really think it
was burned.

IA:

We've heard that from other people, too.

Down: Yes, I know.

IA:

Usually off the record though.

Down:

I have no proof.

I've just, that's just my own suspicion.

IB:

Suspicion, urn,hum.

Down: Urn,and especially your stories that you've told me confirm it.

IB:

Why did, why did you think that perhaps it had been set?

Down:

To get rid of it.

IB:

For, because it would be cheaper than tearing it down?

Down:

Cheaper than tearing it down and also probably it was insured, I don't
know.

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 15

IA:

To get the insurance money.

Down: Yeah, probably a little bit but it was an awfully old plant.

In fact,
when we'd come out of the offices, the'first part of the plant we went
i.ntowas the original 1905 plant, wood floors and everything.
why it burnt.

That's

IS:

All that oil soaked into all that wood.

Down: Just like our, just like our Bates Building here, big wooden beams,

wooden ceiling.

IB:

Was that the portion that would have been, say, Cedar and Baker, right
in that corner?

Down: No.

IB:

Would that have been the original •••

Down: No, it was the one along, it was the one that went along the railroad

tracks •

IS:

Okay, okay.

Down: Right behind the •••

IB:

Right across from the depot.

Down: Right across from the depot.

IB:

And behind the clubhouse.

Down: Well, behind the clubhouse and, see, the clubhouse originally, that was

a big kind of a park if you look at the old pictures.

IB:

Ob, really?

IA:

Yeah, yeah.

IB:

Before they built, when did they build the clubhouse?

IA:

The fields, the REO field, 1917, 191'7.

Down: Was it '17?

IA:

Yes •

Down:

See, they'd been going more than 10 years then.

•

•

•

• Jack Down

2/18/92
Page 16

IA:

Right, that's right.
work would go out into the field and play games, sports and things like
that.

I've read a lot about how the, the boys, after

IB:

I've heard that but I couldn't picture where the fields were 'cause I
didn't think about it being where the clubhouse is.

Down: And then the main office was the next building south. Then the

engineering building had been built later. I don't know when.

IA:

Is that where you worked, in the engineering •••

"Down: No,"I was in the main office.

IA:

Oh, you were in the main office building.

18:

Right there facing Washington?

Down: Um, hum.

IA:

Did you ever go to the clubhouse for events?

•

Down: Ah •••

18:

Were they having much in the '40s?

Down:

I don't remember _hem having much.
there but I didn't.

Yes, there were things went on

IA:

You didn't really go over there?

Down: Uh, huh.

IA:

Did people use it though?

Down: Yeah.

IA:

other people, workers, the line workers?

Down: Yes.

It was a place you go to movies.

IA:

Movies there.

Down:

I think the radio station was in it.

Yeah •

Oh, the radio station was still going?

IA:

• 18:

Down: WREO.

•

•

•

Jac'k Down
2/18/92
Page 17

IS:

At one time, it was in the building

across the street, I've been told.

Down:

Well, I don't know, I'm sure it was there but I never went up to it.

IB:

I dG>n't remember my mother saying much about the clubhouse
worked there from, before the, during the War, until early' 50s.

either.

She

Down:

We had some friends that lived down on Baker, in that area, and I
remember walking up from their house to see the movies
in the REO
Clubhouse

when I was a little kid, in the '20s.

IA:

Oh, in the '20s you went to see the movies there?

Yeah.

Um, hum.
We've heard a lot of people have memories
it was to be able to go and people sneaking
if their parents didn't really work there.

about that and how wonderful
in to see the films, even

Down:

Yeah, and of course, it was perfectly
street then, too.

safe to walk up and down the

IB:

Yes, that's another piece, another way that things have changed.

IA:

Down:

They, you were saying earlier that you had some memories
and the Lansing Labor Holiday?

of the strike

Well, I, yeah, I remember that.
so, therefore,
then they walked out •••

was I and, of course, they met down here in Lansing

and

My father was very conservative

and

IA:

This is for the Labor Holiday or the strike?

Down:

It's the Labor Holiday.

IA:

In June, in June of 1937?

Down:

Yeah, they walked out.
to East Lansing.
students but I would say it's pretty close to Harrison.

They walked down Michigan

I'm not sure where they were met by the college

Avenue and walked out

IA:

Right, the Red Cedar, because they called it the Battle of the Red
Cedar.

Down:

They called it the Battle of the Red Cedar and the students threw some
into the Red Cedar.

IA:

Did you see any of this or you just heard from your dad?

Down:

No, I heard it.

IA:

You just heard it.

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 18

IB:

What did your dad seem to think of it, do you remember?

Down:

Oh, he thought that was great.

IA:

That the students whooped

'em, right?

Down:

The students whooped

'em.

IB:

Oh, so he, he didn't see it from the workers' end of it?

Down:

No, no.

IA:

Down:

IA:

Down:

Were people in Lansing frightened by it, at all, because you know,
there was a lot of strikes and sitdowns and things going on at that
time.

••••••• , of course, was the center of a lot of the more violent things.
I don't remember Lansing being too violent.
anything about people being really upset.

No, I don't remember

It seems to me that if you call it a Labor Holiday, it wasn't

No, no.
that kind of thing people were real worried about.
like a takeover or a •••

You know, it wasn't

No, i don't think we really thought anything too drastic was gonna come
from it and I think, I think that a lot of people, at least in our, in
our group and this would be mostly college, really felt it was illegal
to sitdownin
Whether the people had more wages coming or not, that was illegal so
you don't do it.

a plant and take it over and that was their basis.

18:

So that's why the students were •••

Down:

That's why the students, ah, huh •••

18:

they were coming at it from the other side of the coin.

Down:

I think so, urn, hum 'cause I don't think anyone begrudged people
getting paid a decent day's wage.
well, they're making so much money now and they weren't.

I never heard that.

Never heard,-

IA:

The working people didn't make very much money then either.

Down:

No.

IA:

Especially

in '37, right •

Down:

Yeah, and we had, we had people in our own family, now our family was
lucky that we had this family farm so nobody ever went hungary and my
uncle, when you come, you stop there and you go home loaded with apples

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Pag~ 19

was available,

or whatever
hungary but I had a, I had a uncle who was a stubborn
a blacksmith
horrible time financially.

and would not do anything but blacksmithing

He saw to that.

milk.

So we never went

old coot who was
and he had a

IA:

He didn't see the handwriting

on the wall.

Dowp:

No, well, he wouldn't,
blind.

yeah, everybody

pointed

it out to him but he was

18:

During the period of time that you were working there, maybe some of
right after the War there
the big strikes were over but I'm thinking
was the coal strike and the steel strike and the railroad
strike and
the, ah •••

Down:

But nothing much in Lansing that I remember.

IB:

I mean, well, people were out of work.

Down:

Oh, people were out of work.

IB:

Yeah, because of these other things.

I don't mean •••••••••••••••

Down:

But '48•••

IB:

Down:

the REO was down.

See, I graduated
of the Army people were still in school and I was out.

in '46 and I was a hot commodity

because,

see, a lot

IA:

You were out already.

Down:

at all.

I was out already and getting a job was just no problem
education
really but things were moving then.
That was, that's rather astounding
and watch the production
the most equal company that we knew of.

if you had an
Now, I don't know how many people were out of work
I mean, like a 125 trucks a day.

figures of White because White seemed to be

and I know we used to sit

production

IA:

White Motors?

Down:

White Motors.

IA:

Yeah.

Down:

And, of course, even while I was there, White was trying to buy the REO
engine •

IB:

Oh, it was?

• Jack Down

2/18/92
Page 20

Down: Plant or at least the rights to it and White was producing just about

the sarneas we were and I think most companies and, of course, there
were a lot of little companies producing.
town producing madly.

I mean, Duplex was here in

18:

Well, it was a good time to work in 'cause there was employment.

Down: Um, hum.

IA:

And REO was a very Lansing associated •••

Down: REO was a family.

IA:

Family oriented, yeah.

IS:

See, even he knows, even he felt that in working there just a year and
a half.

Down: Yeah.

IS:

We keep hearing this.

•

Down: REO was a family.

IA:

Yeah, a Lansing based, I mean, it was local.

Down: A Lansing based family, yes it was.

IS:

It's interesting to me because R.E. Olds sort of started that feeling
and then he wasn't even there much after 1906.

Down: No, he wasn't a part of it.

IB:

He just felt like he had done and he didn't want to change with the
times and there was no more challenge and he just more or less left
everybody else to run •••

Down:

See, when did he die, '50 ••••

IS:

1950~ June of '50.

Down:

'50.

It must of been '49 then, I met him.

IA:

Oh, you did?

Down: Yeah.

IB:

Oh, tell us about that. How'd you meet him?

•

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 21

Down: Well, well, I was interested, I met all the old Lansing people except

Durant.

I mean, Frank Clark who built the, who built the first REO

Olds with, Olds •••

IA:

Yes.

Down:

I knew him. Edmonds o·fthe Bates and Edmonds was a good friend.
used to go to his house every now and then. We used to, I'd just drop
in and he'd, awwww, and we'd sit down and gab.

I

IB:

What kind of a person was Mr. Edmonds?

Down: Dried up old man but he was fun. He was alive.

IB:

How'd you happen to meet him.

Down:

I went, I made a point to meet him.
steamer.

I met Bonet with the Bonet

IB:

Was he living here in Lansing?

Down: Yeah, he was living here. He had drivers license number one for the

state of Michigan.

IA:

Oh, my.

IB:

Is that right?

Down:

So proud of that, yeah.
same family.

That's still the, Bonet Electric is still the

IB:

Yes, yes.

Down: And ab •••

IB:

And Clark now, he was the, the young man who he and R.E. wheeled the
little three wheel car out of his dad's shop.

Down: Yeah, yeah.

IA:

In the 1880s, 1890s, right?

Down: Yeah, yeah.

IB:

1880s, in the '80s.

Down:

But what was interesting was all these people disliked him.

IA:

REO, Olds?

• Jack Down

2/18/92
Page 22

Down:

Olds.

IB:

Disliked,

disliked Olds.

Why did they dislike Olds?

Down:

They felt, I think to a man, even Horace Thomas •••

IB:

Who was?

Down:

He was his chief engineer,
climbed on their backs.

even the Thomas family felt that R.E.

IA:

Oh, for his own personal

gain?

Down:

I think that was it.

I worked

in a place the

Yeah, and used them.
Auto Body.
and the man who was their upholsterer
car out here.

Not the original Auto Body factory but an Auto Body shop

was the man who upholstered

the

IB:

The REO Royale?

Down:

• IA:

Down:

No, the, the 18 •••

Oh, the original.

The original

Olds.

IB:

Oh, the 1897 Olds?

Down:

1897 •••

IB:

He did the uphols~ering

on it?

Down:

He did the upholstering
went and met Clark because he was telling me, well, Clark's
alive.
was because,

and I can't remember

his name for the life of me.

He lives in Mason and I think that's why I went to meet Clark

and he and Clark, in fact, I think that's why I

still

18:

The man who did the upholstery?

Down:

The man who did the upholstery

hated him, too.

IB:

And did he say why or just because of bad business

dealings?

Down:

IB:

• Down:

Well, his comment was, Olds published
days, he said, and he never even mentioned

me.

a book about that, those first

And Clark felt the same way?

And Clark felt the same way.
See, he was building
truck.

Well, Clark told me that alds stole his

the Clarkmobile

Truck and I've looked at,

'.

Jack Down
2118/92
Page 23

I've looked at Clarkmobile
REO Truck pictures

Truck pictures

and I've looked at Olds or

and I can't see that they're that similar.

IA:

Similar, they're not, huh?

Down:

No, I don't think so but Clark told me himself,
truck over to Olds and before he was building
over and said, R.E. why don't you market this with your car.
and he kept it and he kept it and I began to send him messages,
He said, finally I had to go over and get it.
truck back.
the next year, out he came with the truck and he said it was my truck.

trucks and sent my truck
He said,

REO, he said, I sent my

He said,

send my

IB:

And there was no way he could prove it or •••

Down:

No, and I don't think they really looked a lot alike but anyway, Clark
felt that way.

IA:

What kind of things did you talk with Olds when you met him?

Down:

Well, I wrote him and asked if I could meet him and I got a postcard
back from Florida.
He was down in Florida and, you've got that card
here somewhere,

I mean, the Museum has it •

IB:

Oh, good.

I hope it's in our records.

Down:

Yeah, well, I gave it to the Museum.

IB:

on,

Down:

And he said, I'll be home so and so time, give me a ring, somethin'
like that.
and •••

So, I called and he said come on over and I went over

IA:

Where#d you go?

Down:

To his house.

IB:

On the corner of Main and Washington?

Down:

Yeah, yeah, and what I found out after I'd been there about 20 minutes
was he wanted to know if I knew, you know what the, Baby REO is?

IB:

Sure.

Down:

Yeah.

IA:

Where it was?

Down:

Where it was.

•

•

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 24

18:

He wanted to know it~ locality?

DOwn:

He wanted to find it and he wanted to get it and I, frankly,
time had never heard of it.

at the

IA:

Oh?

Down:

See, it*s been about 49, something
like that, and I told him, no, I
didn't know where it was and quick as he found that out, he was done
and I •••

IS:

He had no further use for you?

Down:

He had no further use for me and so the interviewing
that's when I began to think that maybe Clark and some of those pe6ple
had a point.

was over and

IS:

You, what did you, you were in the livin9 room of his house or in his
den or •••

Down:

Oh, we were in, not in the room with the pipe organ.
downstairs

living room.

We were in a,

IS:

I understand

it was a beautiful

place inside.

Down:

Well, it was dark and dreary.

IB:

Was it really?

Down:

.Yeah.

IA:

Old fashioned?

Down:

Old fashioned,

heavy •••

IB:

Lots of dark paneling' on the walls •••

IA:

Victorian,

yeah.

Down:

Um, hum, very.

IA:

Things had already changed a lot since then.

Down:

It was a, it was a shame that they tore it down.

IS:

I think so too.
is turned off)

I, someone was telling me about the turntable ••• (tape

Down:

So anyway, he didn't remember

it at all and I never did find out.

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 25

IS:

Did R.E. Olds appear to be a very friendly man when you first went in?

Down: No, very formal.

IB:

No warmth there in his greeting to you or •••

Down:

I, he was proper.

IB:

Just business like.

Down:

Business like, ah huh, but once we got done and I didn't know where the
Baby REO was, why he ••••

IA:

Where is the Baby REO? Does anyone know?

Down: Oh, yeah.

It's out •••

IB:

•••••• Tieg owns it.

Down:

Tieg, isn't Tieg dead now?

IB:

Oh, I didn't know •

Down: Well, I thought he was.

IB:

Richard Tieg, no, I didn't know that.

Down: Well, maybe he isn't.

IB:

That's possible.

That's pretty possible, in California, anyway.

Down:

In California.

IA:

Oh, it's out in California.

Down: There was, you know this, this very nicely bound magazine, it's a

hardbound magazine called Automobiles?
he has the full size REO just like the Baby. He has 'em both.

They had an article on it and

IB:

We had them both here for a time on display.

Down: Yes, they were both here in the Museum.

IB:

Back in 1985.

IA:

'Cause I've seen pictures of the Baby REO.

They're adorable.

Down:

They're cute.

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 26

IB:

We had 'em both here, I don't know when they came.
I came in '85 and they were here till '86, I think.

They were here when

IA:

NOW, did you ever meet Richard

Scott?

Down:

No.

IA:

You didn't?

Down:

No.

IA:

I don't remember when he died but •••

Down:

I think previous

to the times that I was trying to meet people.

IA:

IB:

Okay.
so.

It's possible

because he wasn't around after the '20s anyway,

When you met Mr. Edmonds,
What kind of person was he?

you said he was a, he was very old then.

Down:

Well, as I say •••

IB:

Did he say much about being •••

Down:

Oh, yes, ••••••• one of the stories he told me 'cause when I first met
him, I said, I was trying to get pictures
if he had pictures
and so
forth, he said, oh, he said, you know, Bates and I, he says, I suppose
we made 25 cars and we lost our pants.

and I can see this now, I know the building

of everything

and I asked him

IB:

On the Batesmobile?

Down:

On the Bates and he said, when we decided to quit that, he said, .we
were so sick of that venture,
Edmonds Company and threw them in the middle of the floor of the
factory and burned them right there.

we took all the papers for the Bates and

IA:

Oh, Lord.

IB:

'Is that right?

All that history.

IA:

Right,and
thing.

it makes a historian

like me cringe to think about such a

IB:

Yesl and the factory was out here, of course.

Down:

And the factory was here, yeah.

IB:

And the little building that's inside, it was the office portion?

• Jack Down

2/18/92
Page 21

Down:

Um, hum.

IS:

And then the warehouse
cars where built.

out in back was the actual factory where the

What period of time was he, were they building

cars?

Down:

Oh, they were building

cars •••

IS:

Like 1910 or •••

Down:

No, before.

IS:

Oh, before.

Down:

I think.
We could look it up here if we wanted to know exactly.

I'd say 8 to 11, somewhere

I think probably

along in there.

*

IS:

I wonder

if there's any of those cars that have survived?

Down:

No, I don' t even know of any •••

IS:

Is that right?

•

Down:

Even, of course, he built a tractor

•••••• and they built engines.

IA:

Down:

Did any of these old timers talk about what they thought were the big
changes that, you know, occurred,
that they got started at the beginning
the guys who owned the companies
changed?

of the century?
changed or how the workers

how things have changed

You know, how

had

from the time

No, I never heard anything
and I, I don't think a lot of people realize this, when they think of
the car companies

from 1900 to say 19, to the World War I •••

on that particularly.

I think the one thing

IA:

Yeah, the first two decades.

Down:

And was one reason why there were so many of them.
built that would run could be sold.

Anything

that was

IA:

Yeah, and it didn't take much capital to get going, either.

Down:

No, no.

IA:

It's not like building
a couple guys together

a multimillion
in a back room and turn it out.

dollar plant.

You could just get

• Down:

if you had an engine to buy and there were engines

for

And especially
sales, I mean, Olds was making
Snyder car which belongs,
Odessa.

I can't say their name.

'em for one and for example,

there's the

the last I knew, to the people over in Lake

Anyway, they bought

it but the Snyder

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 28

car was built here in town.
a very fancy automobile.
the Green Leaf.

Now, he put a motor on a buggy.

He built

I met him and ah, then of course, there was

IB:

The Green Leaf?

Down:

Which was Smith Clawson.

Remember

Clawson Floors?

18:

Yes, here in Lansing.

Down:

Smith Clawson was the engineer.

IB:

Oh?

Down:

And they built at least three but they were a bicycle

company.

IA:

Yeah, that was very common.

IB:

Yes.

IA:

In Europe particular,

to go from bicycle to cars.

IB:

Start with the bicycles.

Down:

Bicycle.

IB:

The bicycle and the carriage,
it.

you put it together

and put an engine on

Down:

The Pope, Pope Toledo, all that was bicycle.

~A:

Ah, huh.

Down:

IA:

Down:

And um, let me see, I'm trying to think,
Engine Company here in town.

'cause there was the Neway

And Frank Newborough
Wave •• 0

and I forget the other guy's name but his name was

IA:

What a wonderful

name.

Down:

And, of course, they bought Clark out and nobody is sure whether there
actually was a Neway car or whether
different

it was a Clarkmobile

name on it.

with a

IB:

Oh?

Down:

And no one's real sure on that.

•

•

•

Jack Dawn
2/18/92
.Page 29

IA:

Why did it all happen here?

Did anyone •••

Down:

It didn't much, very much happen here.

IA:

In Lansing,

I meant.

Down:

It didn't.
compared to a lot of places.

Lansing was, Lansing,

as fa·r as numbers go is rather pale

IA:

Well, certainly

when you compare •••

Down:

It just happened that two of them went •••

IA:

Got bigger?

Down:

Got bigger.

IA:

I see, okay.

IB:

They got the financial

backing.

Down:

They got the financial
Oldsmobile
that great, big Limited

backing.

They built a good car.

'Course

nearly went under in about 1910 to '12 when they went into

and Oldsmobile

just squeaked by and •••

IS:

Then R.E. went down when he wouldn't
carne back up a little bit.

corne up with anything

new and then

Down:

Yeah, yeah.

IA:

But Lansing,
producer,

center for car production.

back then in the teens was considered

an important

Down:

Yeah, of course, now it's the biggest

in the United states.

IA:

United States, that's right.

I know that.

That's right.

Down:

And ah, which is surprising.
now, they just mean the car industry.

I mean, I think when they say Detroit

IA:

Right.

Down:

'Cause there's nothing in Detroit.

IA:

There's not much in Flint anymore either.

IB:

Well, they jus~moved

the while V6 line to Flint but •••

IA:

Oh, back there, huh?

•

•

•

Ja·ck D.own
2/18/92
Page 30

IB:

Yeah, the ••••• out of BOC here.
taken over to Flint.

The building's

empty.

It's all been

IA:But

I'm just very curious,

I mean, obviously

the people have talked

about Michigan,
I read, they always talk about Detroit,
but never Lansing.

you know, why Michigan

but so much in the history that

Ford, Detroit,

Ford, GM, Flint,

Down:

Never Lansing.
Lansing was big.

I mean,

'course for a little while with the Durant,

IA:

And the '20s with REO and Oldsmobile,

it was huge.

Down:

Yeah, Durant and Oldsmobile
was big and Fisher Body.

and REO and Duplex although Duplex never

IA:

Fisher, right, that's right.

Down:

And Pruden(?)

and Motor Wheel.

IS:

Oh, the Pruden Wheel began Motor Wheel.

Down:

I think, I think it was just, I think you'd have a hard time

Yeah.
putting your finger on whatever

really did it.

IA:

Specific things.

Down:

Other than there were some good people and General Motors when and so
went and Fisher Body went.
therefore,

Oldsmobile

IS:

Durant was a big moving

force in that.

Down:

And Durant

IS:

And, too, the times were right.
cars and •••

Everybody

was scrambling

to produce

Down:

Well, of course, the late '20s was a great time for a lot of people.
think that probably the '20s was the first time that the working man
actually began to really get money.

I

IB:

Oh, I think you're right.

They were coming off the farms and •••

Down:

And they were coming off the farms •••

IS:

being able to work where they could make some money.

Down:

and they were working
the first time.

in the factories

and they were buying cars for

• Jack Down

2/18/92
Page 31

IB:

Life was improving

for their families.

Down:

They were getting nicer houses and they were

Life was improving.
sending their kids to college or at least thinking
that sort of thing.
year, I mean, decade.

I think probably

the '20s was a pretty

important

about it and all

IA:

Yeah, that's what I'm concentrating

on in my own work, actually.

IB:

It's almost a huge revolution,

isn't it?

Down:

Yeah, I think it was.

IB:

From agriculture

to machines.

Down:

And ah •••

IA:

A lot of the production
too, right?

techniques

changed in the '20s in the factory,

Down:

• IA:

Down:

Oh, yeah, yeah, mass production

really.

That's right, that's right, came into its own then.

Came into its own, although of course, the fire arms industry
it •••

had done

IA:

In the Civil War, a long time before that.

Down:

A long time, 50 years before.

IB:

Down:

And even before that, in Europe they had a production
R.E. Olds capitalized
It, it strikes me every time I
talk about this or think about it that there's nothing new under the
sun, •••••••• but there isn't.
you take that idea and you make it better and then the next person
takes your idea and makes it better and· nothing's

really brand new.

has been produced

on that, too.

line going.

Whatever

before you,

So

I got a letter from a man the other day and he was saying, well, after
all, he says, fuel injection
here since, I think it was the Knox in 1904 had fuel injection.

has been here 40 years.

Heck, it's been

IA:

Is that right?

Down:

Yeah.

IB:

• Down:

Where was the Knox produced?

Oh, I don't know.

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 32

18:

I mean, was that a Michigan •••

Down:

No.

18:

Oh, Ohio or somewhere

else.

Down:

I think it was Indiana, Ohio, one of those.
fuel injected and I think it was a Knox.

Bui: I have an ad for a

IB:

And what about, do I want to say automatic

tranJilmission?

IA:

Yeah.

Down:

Well, my, I have a REO now that I say is a baskEi!tcase.
automatic

transmission.

It's got the

IA:

Right, and REO was the first car to have that, lright, in the United
states?

Down:

Yeah.

Well, no, no.

IA:

No?

Down:

You get, you'll find some car that had it before 1910.

No, oh, no.
There, the Carger(?)
kinds of innovations

car was a variable
before 1915.

speed clutch.

There were all

IB:

Didn't Benz have one like that?

Down:

I don't know.

But REO's self-shifter

was a liti:1e different.

IB:

The self-shifter.
called.

That's what I was trying to 1t:hinkwhat it was

Down:

And ah, I've got two of 'em, two self-shifters.
you're getting the kind of things you want.

Now, I don't know as

IA:

Oh, sure.

IB:

Down:

It's interesting,
piece comes out that we hadn't, we talked to YOll about some of the auto
pioneers
fits into the big picture.

too, because each interview' WEi!do, some other little

We've not had that exper Lence before.

that you met.

It all

Well, when I met Frank Clark,
think went to Pontiac.
while, relatively
out behind his house and he was producing

successful

Anyway,

he built a truck there which was, for a
and when I met him in Mason, he had a shop
one a1t:a time •••

'course, Frank Cliirk left Lansing

and I

IA:

Oh, my.

In the '40s?

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 33

Dow,n: In the, in the '40s, one at a time house trailelrs.

IB:

Oh, he was?

Down:

Um, hum.

IB:

Hand built almost?

Down:

Hand built, wooden frame with a metal skin.

IA:

Oh, my goodness.

Down:

They looked quite a bit like, as I remember thel~, quite a bit like the
Airstream.

IB:

IA:

I was just gonna sayan

Airstream,

the rounded, in the middle.

And that's how he was making a living •••

Down:

That was what 'he was doing when I talked to him"
working on his •••

He was very busy

IA:

Now, see, that's a, I see as a huge difference between the early guys
industry and thEa ones who came later.
who pioneered

in the automobile

Down:

Like Tucker, you mean?

IA:

These, these, well, at least later, these early guys, they were the
hands-on engineers.

Down:

They were.

I mean, Olds had no training.

IA:

That's right.

The later guys were more bue Lneaa administrators.

Down:

Yes.

IA:

They knew how to oversee large corporations.

Down:

Olds had no engineering
badly he missed it when he, when he gave MSU thEa money to •••

training and yet he realized, I think, how

IA:

For the engineering •••

Down:

Build a new building when it burned.

My dad wall there in that period.

IB:

He was?

Down:

My father had a clothes pressing shop on the c~npus right next door to
theOlds
Of course,
when they rebuilt it, they built it $0 it looked just like the other

Building, or the original engineering

building.

•

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•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 34

one and he said that he and his partner picked up their steam presses
'cause they thought it was gonna
and carried them out of the building
burn and the next day, he said, it didn't burn.
back in, it took six people to carry the same press back in.

They wanted to take it

IB:

Isn't that, that adrenalin rush.

Down:

That adrenaline

IB:

How did the fire start?

Down:

I don't remember.

IB:

And it totally gutted the building.

Down:

Gutted it.

IB:

And then it was •••

Down:

It really gutted it.

IB:

He donated the money and it was rebuilt?

Down:

Yeah, um, hum.

IA:

But to get himself started in business, he didn't need that, you know,
at le~st in those, the early days.

Down:

No.

His father was building engines.

IB:

Just took over his dad's shop.
moreless,

is what I've heard.

Forces his brother Wallace oirt,

Down:

I don't know if he forced him out but knowing •••

IB:

Bought him out.

Down:

knowing what the others thought of him, maybe he did.

IA:

Now, I've read some very shady accounts of his brother in the

Yeah.
early teens and how his brother tried to organize a union among the
workers and that was a point of big contention between them.

Down:

contention
to go.

and that's why he bought him out ~r got him out, wanted him

IA:

•

The machinist's
of the workers were, considered themselves machinists,
don't know anything about that, huh?

union, in fact, because in those days, of course, most

you know.

You

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 35

Down:

Well, I know they did.

IA:

Except, except what I just told you, yeah.
find out.

It's very tantalizing.

But that's about all I can

Down:

I don't, oh, about his brother?

IA:

Yeah.

Down:

No, I probably

read some of the same things you have.

IA:

Same things, yeah.

18:

There weren't too many records anywhere or ar~icles that I've read
about him other than just to hint at things like that.

IA:

Right, that's right.

It's very, it's very interesting.

Down:

And then I understand,
stories.

IA:

Oh, I see.

IB:

Yes, that's why the •••

too, asOlds

got older, he embellished

the

Down:

That's why the first biography

was •••

IB:

The Yarnell book.

Down:

Yeah, not considered

a very good book.

IB:

Down:

some things out of the Neimeyer

No, and there's
I just ran across something
but I think everybody
really ghost written by R.E., to make, and as you look at things back
down the years, you want to recall the good things and you want your
record to go on looking good.

realizes that the other one, the Yarnell book was

the other day I was gonna mention

book, too, that aren't,

to you,

Well, and maybe you just simply want some propaganda
and I'm sure he was aware of how some of these people felt.
in the State Library,

are the two photo albums of the Clark family.

out there, too,

Now, down

IA:

Oh, I'll have to check that out.

Down:

Oh, they're •••

IB:

Where, the State Library?

Down:

Yeah, they're down in Joanne's

bailiwick.

•

•

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 36

IA:

Oh, in th& Lansing State •••

18:

Oh, in the Lansing Public Library?

Down: Yeah, yeah, but it's called the State, I don't know why.

18:

In the Lansing History room?

Down;

In the Lansing History room.

18:

Downstairs, okay.

Down: And ah •••

18:

You have to be quick if you're gonna do that •••

IA:

I know.

18:

••••••• pretty soon.

Down: There are pictures in there of parties given by Clarks and the Olds's

are there and there's pictures in there of Clarks and Olds and the
women and the men out in their car and their children, doing things
together.

IA:

Take drives and stuff.

Down: Taking drives, yeah.

18:

Maybe on a social level they could maybe •••

Down:

So they were, they were friends up till at least '10 or '12 and I'm
sure that he realized that these people wouldn't speak to him anymore.

18:

And they really wouldn't speak to him?

Down: And they really wouldn't, no. They didn't like him and I'm sure, you

know, he wanted to •••

IA:

He was also setting his sights beyond Lansing.

18:

Well, he was •••

IA:

•.

e-

••••

_e

••••••••

,

too.

18:

a business entrepreneur, too.

Down: Yeah, he was •

18:

Cars were just a means.

•

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
PaCje37

Down:

Well, he actually

got tired of the cars.

IB:

Not that he really loved car, right, after he'd pioneered
what he wanted to do, then he, then his interest
exciting

anymore and I've just read that •••

left.

it and done
It wasn't as

Down:

Wasn't exciting

anymore and real estate was exciting

to him.

IB:

Urn, hum.

IA:

Yeah.

IB:

And traveling.

Down:

And maybe he, and maybe he changed because he did a lot with trying to
make life better for some people.

IB:

He did a lot for Lansing,

didn't he?

Down:

Well, he did a 10,t in Florida with his retirement
He was gonna make money at it, sure, but also he knew it was a gamble
and he wanted retired ministers
whether
don't know.

he wanted retired 01ds, ah REO people to have a place to go.

to have a place to go and I don't know

places and so forth.

I

IA:

He originally
I think, from what I read.

wanted it to be a place where his workers

could go, too,

IB:

Sort of a utopian community.

IA:

Yeah, you know, after they'd put their time in, long years at the REO
that they would have a place that they could go.

Down:

A place to go.

IB:

There again, that paternalistic

thing comes through

again.

Down:

Yeah, it does.

IB:

IA:

I think it's so interesting
this feeling persists
about it even.

to think that this started so long ago but

all the way down through the '70s.

You spoke

Did you see it when you were working there or from people that

Yeah.
you knew that worked there, did you see any of the kind of programs
that the REO offered the workers.
You know, I've asked you already
about the clubhouse

but other kinds of things?

Down:

No, I didn't.

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 38

IA:

Okay.

Down:

I don't know why, I didn't feel a part of that.

IB:

Maybe you weren't there long enough.

Down:

Well, I might not have been there long enough and my boss was not there
very long.

IA:

Oh, okay.

Down:

And he •••

18:

Mr. Palmer.

Down:

Yeah, Mr. Palmer.

IA:

'Cause, you know, people have talked about sports teams and there was a
benefit,

People could get money •••

a mutual benefit

society.

•

Down:

Oh, band •••

IA:

There was a band and, right.

Down:

They had all those kinds of things.

IA:

Right.

Down:

One thing you might want to hear is there was a football
named John Pringle.
I'm sure.
Pringle,

I think there was an R in it, not Pingle but

He came to REO as sales manager while I was there.

star from MSU

IA:

I think we've heard about this from somebody else, didn't we.

18:

Last week we interviewed
chance to meet her.

Hilda Smith.
She was in personnel.

I don't know if you ever had a

Down:

I don't remember her.

when she retired, they gave her this big party and the big
leather bound album and there was a picture of him in there

And there's,
beautifully
and her and then the little cartoon sketch of him chasing,
with this football and she's saying, no, no, I don't want to talk about
football again and he was sales.

behind her

Well, we, a lot of us at the time thought he got the job because of his
name but he was an awfully nice person.
don't know.

Now how good a job he did, I

six months overlap with me •

He was there probably

18:

Down:

•

•

•

Jack.Down
2/18/92
Page 39

IA:

Okay, and was he hired for his skills on the field as opposed to in the
office?

Down:

Genasepa?(French

saying)

IA:

Let the record note that he made a face 'cause you can't see those on
tape.

Down:

Yeah, he was a very nice person.
each other a little bit.

I liked him and we seemed to enjoy

IA:

But the company was still interested
obviously
skills.
football,

ah baseball

teams •••

and not to even look into hiring somebody

for their sport
In the teens, of course, they were really into having good

in those kind of activities,

too,

Down:

Baseball •••

IA:

for the city leagues.

IB:

That's right, we heard about that from someone, didn't we.

IA:

Yeah.

18:

That they would hire people that were good in those areas.

IA:

And REO won the city championships.

Down:

Did they?

IA:

Ye.ah, in the late, '13, '14, '15, something
that was very important to the company,
that, make a good showing.

So.

around there, yeah, and

apparently

that they would do

18:

That pulled togetherness,

too.

IA:

Yeah.

Down:

Well, yeah, out in the plant there was, there was a feeling of we.

IA:

Ah, huh, even with the u~ion being there.

Down:

Oh, yeah.

IA:

Okay.

So it wasn't necessarily

was them or, against us.

Down:

No, no.

18:

Like it is now.

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 40

IA:

Down:

Right, right.
belong to a union.

You can't possibly have loyalty to the company if you

No, there was, I never, ever feel that.
no union of the office workers but the men out there were together.
mean, I think everybody felt we were making a good truck and we want it
to be good.

I didn't join 'cause there was
I

IS:

Pride.

Down:

Um, hum, pride.

IS:

Do you remember, I suppose you were living in Lansing then when the big
train wreck was right there on the north side of the clubhouse?

Down:

I sure do because I was right down there.

IA:

Really, you saw it?

Down:

I didn't see it happen but I was right there afterward.
and I, we jumped our bicycles and we went right straight down there.
I've got some very nice pictures of it •

My best friend

IA:

IS:

Oh, my!

Have you really?

Down:

Oh, ,yeah.

IS:

I recall something about it taking out the switch tower.

Down:

Yeah, took off the switch tower.

Killed a little newsboy.

IA:

IS:

Oh.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Down:

Yeah, killed a newsboy who was standing there on the platform.

IS:

Oh, at the railroad depot.

Down:

At the railroad depot.

IS:

Ready to deliver papers or •••

Down:

And, of course, it went right through the end of the depot.

IS:

Oh, it did?

•

•

•

• Jack Down

2/18/92
Page 41

Down:

And there was a man sitting in his car, I have a picture of this, there
was a man sitting there in his car and waiting for somebody at the
depot and he saw it start to happen and he leaped out of his car and
ran as hard as he could and a freight car rolled right over his car and
here is this car just engine high and a door sticking out from under
that freight car.

I have that picture, that I took it.

IS:

Oh, I have to, goodness sake.

Down:

And ah •••

IS:

There were cars allover,

I mean, railroad cars •••

Down:

Yeah, railroad cars allover.

It took off the signal tower.

IA:

IS:

And was this in the '30s?

'36.

Down:

Must of been right along in there.

• IS:

Down:

IA:

I think I was four or five when it happened •

Well, I was an avid photographer
and took pictures.

then and I went down with my camera

Oh, my goodness.

IS:

We didn't have a car and we lived out in Holt and the neighbors,
guess the general telegrams or whatever but everybody
about it and somebody came and took us down so we could see it.

I
suddenly knew

Down:

And I remember we were walking along and all of a sudden we realized we
were walking in something and it was going squish, squish and it was
red and we thought, oh, my God •••

IA:

Hope it's not blood.

Down:

but it was grapes.

IA:

IS:

Oh, that were in the train.

Oh, that •••

Down:

Had been crushed.

IS:

In one of the fruit, or cars.

•

Down:

Um, hum.

•

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 42

IB:

And the engineer or any, I can't •••

Down:

No, just the one kid was killed.

18:

The one little boy, just in the wrong spot.

Down:

Just in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

IA:

Oh, that's awful.

Down:

Yeah, but it went through the end of the wall of the depot and, of
course, showered people with bricks and so forth but, and a lot of
people were hurt but one boy was killed.

18:

Gee, that must of been a big panic.

Down:

Oh,it

must have been.

IA:

Thought that you were being bombed or something, you know.

18:

You know, and now we have all this emergency equipment to respond to
those things but in the '30s •

Down:

The '30s didn't.

IA:

I just have a couple more questions.

Down:

Yeah, yeah.

IA:

Um, I still want to get back to this feeling about the company and the
that you had a lot of pride in, in
family feeling that you mentioned,
the production of this good truck and I just want, want to know if you
can speak a little bit more how, and I know you weren't working down
there making the trucks or anything but do you think that the workers
that did had a sense that the company was gonna reward them for their
loyalty and their good service, you know, so it was not just that they
were making a good truck but that the REO took care of its people.

Down:

REO took care of its people.
retirement program, that REO was not going to let them, ever abandon
them.

REO had this very much anticipated

IA:

Right, so if they put their time in, they were okay.

They'd put their time in and they had earned it and REO was gonna do
I'm sure that was the way they felt and the e,ther
the right thing.
was how young I
thing that you or I was always kind of impressed.was
was compared to most of the workers.
of them were 30s and 40sand

See, those workers there or a lot

50s and 60s.

Down:

•

Jack Down
2/18/92
Page 43

IA:

Yeah, right.
older. They kept them on.

So they just didn't let guys go just because they got

Down:

They kept them on.
'em on.

If they could do anything and wanted to, they kept

IA:

They may not
We've heard that, too, even when people got disabled.
have been able to pay a whole lot for their hospitalization
or their
lost wages but people mentioned that if they couldn't work the line,
they would work an elevator or they'd find something else for them to
do.

Down:

Find something for them to do.

IA:

1&:

Yeah.

So, R.E. Olds really ••••

•

•

.'.