•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 1

IB:

IA:

Dow:

Testing one, two, three.
Doris Dow at the R.E. Olds Museum.

This is February

19, 1992, interviewing

I guess the first thing we could start with is just some, you know,
basic information
and things like that.

about what your address is and where you were born

Okay.
Lansing and I worked at the REO for 25 years.

My name is Doris Dow and I live at 819 Moores River Drive,

IA:

Wow.

Dow:

As a secretary.

IA:

When did you start?

Dow:

Oh, God, I knew you was gonna answer me that, 25 years from, I was
gonna look that up, 25 years from •••

IB:

When did you retire?

Dow:

Well, we went out in '75 •

IB:

Oh, so you were right there till the end?

Dow:

Oh, yes, yeah.

IB:

Okay, we can •••

Dow:

I think it was •••

IA:

So 1950.

Dow:

1950, okay, yeah, 1950.

IA:

Okay, did you start right out of school at the REO?

Dow:

I had a dress store in Flint and my mother was

No, no, I was working,
living alone and she was, my brothers were in the service at the
time, back during the War, my brothers were in the service and my
mother was alone so she said, well, why don't you come to Lansing and
in Flint, a new, which they
I said, oh, I just started a new business
for a dress, this dress
had sent me to New York to train as a manager
store and I had •••

IA:

Wow!

Dow:

And I had, yes, it was, it was real nice and I said, oh, my God, what
am I gonna do, you know.
and •••

But I felt that she was alone, you know,

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
page 2

IB:

And yo.u were born in Lansing

••••••••••• from Lansing.

And 1 was born in, yes, and there was nobody over in Flint that,
other than friends so I \,ant over to, came to Lansing, went over to
personnel and talked to people that I knew over there in personnel
and I ended up going to work in the blueprint room at REO.

As a secretary?

No, no., I worked as a blueprint operator.
ran copies, I should say, ran copies of blueprints.
ozalid machine.

It was a huge machine that
It was called a

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Oh, I never heard of this.

Dow:

Hadn't ya?

18:

A what machine?

Dow:

• 18:

18:

Dow:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

'. Dow:

It was called ozalid machine, it was •••

ozalid, 0 Z A LID.

Okay.

Yeah, it's a big machine that you put,oh,

like a negative in ••..

81uepaper,the

paper that •••

Well, no, that's the print that come out, that blue paper •••

That comes out, oh, I see.

That comes out but you have what we call tracings.
of different parts of th3 trucks and pictures of the trucks and\~like
the engineers draw up in engineering.
things like that and for some reaso.n or other, maybe they would have
a request in purchasing
department to send out to the vendors, they
had to. have a print of that part that they were ordering o.r, so the
purchasing
which was all numbered.
in their ledgers and find out what part that they wanted to order.

agents would~"cill for a copy of such and such a print

They were all numbered and they could look

It's different parts and

They're tracings

And then_you'd

get to work?

And, well, and then we would go to the vault, what we called the
vault and get the tracing, run off as many copies as what this
purchasing

agent needed and send it to him through the mail.

Or a

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 3

lot of times it was prints that were ordered through the foren'lensout
in the factory.
together •••

Maybe they were having problems p~ttin9 the truck

IA:

And they needed to get another look.

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

And they needed to get another look and maybe the dimensions
wrong or maybe they'd have'a big gap of two inches and they're only
suppose to have, what was it, an eighth of an inch or something
that. and they'd have to send, they'd get all these blueprints
look at 'em and see.what·was
fitting together.
probably

So, and I stayed in there for, I don't know,

wrong, you know, why weren't they

five years.

out,

were

like

H0W long did it take you to learn the job?

Oh, that's no' problem.

IA:

No problem'at

all?

Dow:• IA:

Dow:

No problem learning the job.

Just real quick?

Yeah, ah, huh.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

And was it mostly girls working there in that shop, in that part of
the shop?

Ah,'well,
time and one fellow working.

there was three of us, three girls as I remember

at that

Oh, doing the same thing?

NO, we all had individual

jobs.

Different

things to do.

Dow::

Differen.t things but, well ••••

IA:

Dow:

IA:

I see.

the same department.

Dow:•

And it was real interesting
interesting,
know.

more interesting

I thought at the time it was very boring.

when I think back on it now, it was real
than what I thought at the time, you

• Doris

2./19/92
Page 4

IA:

Dow

Did they put you in there because of your experience with the, with
dressmaking?

Dow:

No, no.

IA:

Dow:

The pattern like the blueprints?

NO, no., there. was juet an opening.

IA:

I see.

Dow:

IA:

That was where the opening was.

'Cause there is sort of a connection between them, a little bit.

Dow:

Yeah, well •••

IS:

I was thinking the same thing.

Dow:

IS:

• Dow:

IA:

IS:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

Well, no, no.

It wasn't that, it just happened that this was where the •••

That was, that was, that's where the opening was at the time that I
went to work there.

Okay.

How did you happen to go to REO, because you had friends that· worked
there?

My mother worked there.

your mother worked at REO?

My mother worked at REO.

What did she do there?

She was a, at that, well, she was a controm •••• operator at that
time.

IA:

Oh,·that's wonderful.

DOw:

Yeah, and so •••

IS:

IA:

•

Forerunner

of punchcard.

That's right.

That's right, early computers.

•

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Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 5

Dow:

Yeah, um, hum, and, yeah, she worked there.
number of years, too.
there.
My stepfather
worked there and I worked there.

worked there.

My husband

She worked there a
In fact, several in our family has worked

My brother,

two of my brothers

was there.

18:

A REO family.

Dow:

~es.

REO is known for being a family orinated place.

IA:

Right.

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Yeah, if you ~orked there, your mother worked there, usually your
sisters •••
sons, daughters,

brothers,

Why would you think, why would you say that was?
something
obviously
Something

about the company or the people who worked there or 'cause
it's not true for all the other different
special about REO.

Was it about,

companies.

we all complained

They all complained,

The people that worked for REO really liked and enj.oyed their jobs, I
think most of 'em.
really think the people that worked there enjoyed their job or
enjoyed other, the other people that worked there and so they enjoyed
It was just one of
their, then and so they wanted their sons there.
those things that their sons, their daughters
Just like
my mother worked there so sbe said, well, it's a good place to work,
you know.
get a job there and I ju~t never, never gave it another thought.
I could get to work there, well, that was better.
there, you know.

Why don't you, why don't you come there and see if you can

My mother worked

were there.

but I

If

18:

And the pay was •••

Dow:

The pay was basically
cerctainly better than working
Oldsmobile

the same as it was, or better, better,

in a store downtown

and at that time,

had its own group of people, you know, they had •••

IA:

Their own family.

Dow:

They had their own families working there but if you had a choice of
working between Oldsmobile
father or one thing another worked at REO, that's where you're gonna
go.

and REO and your mother worked or your

IA:

Sure.

Dow:

We felt more comfortable
enjoyed the people that worked there •

and I enjoyed working there at the time.

I

18:

How long did you stay in the blueprint

department?

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 6

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

I would say about five years, I stayed there and then, let's see, did
they consolidate
for Mr. Turner, Ralph Turner at that time.
away, but there was an opening, well, that was called, this was all
in engineering.

I worked, my whole time was in engineering •••

I don't know how my boss, I worked

Mr. Turner has now passed

at that time.

In engineering?

Blueprint was in engineering

Yes.
specifications
if I would like to transfer over to there which was in the next
department.

for a secretary at that time there and so he asked me

but there was an opening in

IA:

Had you gone to business

school?

Dow:

Yes, I had •••

IA:

You did?

Dow:

Yes, I had been to business school, yeah.

• IA:

IB:

Dow:

So you learned shorthand and typing •••

Yes, shorthand and typing, yes.

Here in Lansing?

Dow:

Yes, ah, huh.

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:• IA:

Where, Acme Business College?

Acme Business College, yes.

Did you go right out of high school?

Right out of high'school,
more in my line and one thing another so I went in there and that's
where I was for the next 20 years, was in specifications •••

So I said, you know, I mean, that was

yes.

Oh, you were there in specifications?

Yeah, I stayed right in specifications

for the next 20 years.

So it must have been a good association
that •••

and you liked being in

Yes, yeah, ah, huh.

Did you work for one person or did you work for •••

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 7

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Oh, no, we had several, several different

No, what I meant was, yo,u had a boss that you answered to or were you
the secretary for lot;. of different bosses?

I had, for just one at a time.

You were just one •••

Dow:

Just one.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

• Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

• IA:

DOw:

The personal secretary for one •••

For one person, yes.

man.

But that changed over the years.

Yeah, that position changed over a number, over the years.

I see, 'cause sometimes secretaries,
they have lots of people, like in my department,

you know, work in an office and

you know •••

Yeah, we didn't have that.

We didn't have that.

It was a personal secretary.

We didn't have that at REO, a secretarial pool.
secretarial pool.

We didn't have a

You didn't have that?

Everybody,

all the eecretaries worked for just one, one boss at

No.
the time.

We never had a secretarial pool.

Who were some of the men that you worked for, assuming they never,
really didn't have executive positions for •••

No, we didn't have women at that time.
I
worked for Ralph Turner and from Ralph Turner I went to, hum, I may
not have this in the right order.

Oh, my gosh, let's see.

Well, that's alright.

Probably stan Draminski,
was, I think Henry was the last one, yeah.
But it was in specifications.

Bill Earl, Henry Coleman and I think that

Yup, he was the la~t one.

So you learned a lot about that.

Oh, yes •••

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 8

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:• IA:

Dow:

IB:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

•••••• being there 20 years.

God forbid anybody to have to step in, you know, and
'cause we changed procedures

Oh, yes, yes.
try to learn our procedures
different times over those years.
anybody in which I had girls underneath me, see, when we started out,
when we started out we were not union and I'm not sure •••

several
I always, when I had to break

The secretaries?

No, the office was not union at one time but when the union came in
and I can't tell you what year that was that the union came in, we
were all put into the union.

Which union?

Was it the UAW?

No.

It wasn't that, it wasn't, well, yes, it was the UAW but •••

It wasn't the same thing that the people down in the shop had?

No •

It was a separate office workers •••

It was a separate office, it was a separate office, just for officer
workers alone.

White collar •••

Office or professional

workers?

Yes, ah, huh, but now/the secretary, the grade of secretary that I
was in at that time, I was, I was under the 'union.

So you weren't super, you weren't considered administration?

I wasn't as, no, I wasn't administration
secretaries that were higher and worked for higher bosses, one thing
another, that were not union.

because there were other

18:

Oh, okay.

Dow:

So some of us was and some of us weren't, depending upon, you might
say, more or less, who you worked for.

IA:

• Dow:

IB:

Yeah.

Yeah.

Was it better to be with the union, protected your rights more?

•

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•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 9

Dow:

Protect, the union protected our rights, yeah.

18:

So they took •••

Dow:

Yes, and then we were graded one, two, three and four, four was the
highest grade that we could go and usually a grade four had people
underneath
I supervised or, not exactly supervised but did their •••

them, like I had one, two, three, four girls underneath me

18:

Assigned the work?

Dow:

Assigned work to them, you know.

So it was different.

IA:

The union never went out on strike:

Dow:

No, no.

IA:

There wasn't a strike?

Dow:

IA:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Not at the time that I was there.
They did at one time, yes, but
not, not, yes, one time they, I think they went out on strike but
that wasn't during my time.

Maybe when they were just getting in?

That might have been the late '40s.

I'm not exactly sure just when but I'm sure, if it didn't go out on
strike, they came very, very close to it.

Okay, when they were probably negotiating

a contract.

It might, yes, yeah, um, hum but ordinary •••

There was never question, any question in our mind that the union was
a good thing and •••

The union was good.

The union was good to us and that

No, no.,
partly was due to our manager at the time, too.
manager, well, we had several different managers, boy.
change of personnel, of course, we were bought and sold so many
different times and whenever time we were bought and sold, this was
towards the last 10 years, I would say, our last 10 years, we were
bought and sold so many different times that we couldn't ~eep up with
the letterhead •••

He was, he was, our

We had such

IA:

Oh, my.

Dow:

on our stationary and we, half the time we didn't know who our bosses
were or if they were •••

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 10

IA:

Dow

So the union was the source of continuity,
that stayed the same?

almost 'cause at least

Dow:

IA:

Yes, at least that stayed the same, yes.

And you had some security?

Dow:

Yes, yeah •••

------------

I B :

That must have been very difficult to keep trying to work around a
new person, learn a new routine.

Dow:

Oh, it was.

It was •••

IB:

Keep ya all in turmoil.

Dow:

It was, it was quite, because a lot of times, I can

Yes, yes.
remember a couple times working for, typing up a letter for one boss
and sending it out and at the same time, the next day typing up
another letter for almost counterdicting
letter.
So, you never, you never knew.
you was told.

what I said in the first
You just, you just did what

IA:

Yeah.

Dow:

At the time 'cause you didn't know, as I say, we changed companies so
many, so fast and furious there for a while.

IA:

Through the '60s?

Dow:

Yes.

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Now, you said your husband worked there, too.

My husband was a welder out in the factory.

Oh, he was a welder/

Dow:

Yes, urn, hum.

IS:

Dow:

Did you meet him because you met him at REO or •••

and I couldn't see that.

job and he got laid off from that job and he was gonna draw

No, no, I, I met him through some friends and he was working on a
different
unemployment
the house while I get up and work, go to work every morning.
going to work so I called the personnel manager at that time there
and I said, my husband's home.
gettin' up and going, coming to work in the morning and him'stayin'
home doing nothing.

You're not gonna lay around

He said, send him in.

I don't feel like

He's not workin'.

You're

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 11

IA:

Ohhhhh.

Dow:

And I called him up and I said you meet, and I can't remember that
personnel manager's
constantly
name was •••

name, there was another change.

God, I can't remember what that man's

changed over there.

We were

IA:

Now when was this, in the '50s sometime when he lost his job as a
welder?

Dow:

He worked there 17 years so, yeah •••

IA:

Like he started before the War at REO?

Dow:

IA:

18:

Well, he, he, well, take 17 from '75 and what is it?

Oh, okay.

Oh, he was there at the very end, too?

Dow:

Oh, yes, he was there at the very end, too.

IA:

So he started •••••••••••••••••••••

Dow:

We all, most of us walked out, most of us were let out on April the
5th, 1975.

Very few of 'em were left.

IA:

Now, was he a welder at REO?

Dow:

He was a welder at REO.

,

IA:

And then you called him and got him another job at REO?'

Dow:

No, no.
Well, he did maintenance

work on buildings.

No, he was working for, where was he working at the time?

IA:

Oh, okay.

Dow:

construction.

18:

IA:

Dow:

Oh, okay.

Oh, then when he got laid off from that •••

And when he got laid off from that, yeah, it would have been just
temporarily

but I didn't •••

IA:

But you got him the job at REO as a welder?

•

•

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•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 12

Dow:

Yes, yes, I got him the job at REO.
manager
said, well, send him in, you know, we'll find a job for him, you
know.

Well, the personnel

IB:

Isn't that amazing?

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

Oh, they were, they were always good.
I mean, if you had, if you
worked there and you had somebody that you wanted to get in there,
usually they would find them a job •••

Especially

if you were a good employee,

then they would •••

and, you know, I mean, they had access to your

They, they figured, well, they figured, yes.
were a good employee
records that you weren't going to ask for ,help from somebody
you know, unless they would be a good worker, too, and if they
weren't
rid of 'em.
recommending

of anybody ever
But I don't know, I can't ever remember
somebody in the family, you know, that didn't turn out.

a good worker, they would, there was always ways of getting

They figured if you

else,

IA:

Yeah.

Did you husband stay a welder for the 17 years?

Dow:

He stayed a welder for 17 years, um, hum.

Yes, yes.
I think his
boss for 17 years, too, was, well, it was Jack Harris or what was
Barrett's
Jack Barrett went to Pennsylvania
company out in Pennsylvania

He worked for both of those fellows.

REO trucks out there.

when they sold out.

started building

Jack Barrett.

Another

name?

IA:

Oh, it's Harrisburg.

Dow:

Yes, in Harrisburg.

IA:

Yeah, we just talked to Jack Downs about that.

Dow:

Oh, did ya?

IA:

Yeah.

Dow:

Well, Jack Barrett left REO and took a job with, out in

but I'm pretty sure Jack, Jack Harris has passed away.

Okay.
Pennsylvania
I'm not sure but I'm almost positive
for, he never went back to construction.
He liked, you know, welding

and all.

he is but he stayed right there

He just stayed right there.

IB:

And it was a good job.

Dow:

I

I'.

And it was a good job.
again, see, we were both working
the same hours, you know.
unless, well, unless if it was it was Saturdays.

Basically
REO didn't put in too much overtime

at the same place.

It was year round, steady job and there

We put in a lot of

we had

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 13

saturdays
Oldsmobile.

but it was never any long 10,12

hours.

Now, I worked at

IA:

Oh, you did?

Dow:

Yes.

I left REO, after I left REO.

IA:

Oh, in '75?

Dow:

Yes.

IA:

Yes.

.Dow:

IB:

Dow:

I left, in '76 or '77, I went to Oldsmobile •

Now, what did you do there?

I worked in the off, well, I started in the factory and I had several
jobs at Oldsmobile.
before I went to Oldsmobile
in Sears.
the prosecuting

I didn't like that at all and then I went to working
attorney downtown which was Mr. Scodeller.

Before I went to Old~,
I went to the Credit Office out
for

That was another thing.

though,

IB:

Oh, yes.

Dow:

Yes.

That was, that was an interesting •••

IA:

I bet that was interesting.

Dow:

That was very interesting.

job.
liked it but the pay for the county, working
Since, right after I left from there they
was very low at that time.
got a big raise but I had already had my application
in at Oldsmobile
because my husband wasn't able to find a job that was paying anything
at all.

job and I
for the county, the pay

At that time, things were very bad.

That was an interesting

IA:

Yeah, the mid-'70s were hard.

Dow:

hiring

I never thought

They didn't want only high school

that I would have any trouble
of finding a job but I was too old and they didn't want,

You know, and we didn't know, and at my age, people weren't
people, you know, and if you were in your 30s, 40s at that time,
people just were not hiring you.
kids and they really didn't,
my years of experience
whatsoever
they could take a girl out of high school or fresh out of college and
train them their way, their way of doing things rather than trying to
take somebody older and try to teach them new ways,
course, it was the insurance,
They had to pay bigger, higher insurance
they would have just a young girl.

on paying on me than what
So if they had a choice between

for one minute that with

I can see the company's

as a secretary

•••••• , of

idea.

too.

a

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 14

'em and I

Oldsmobile

in at Oldsmobile

or the attorney,

manager,
three

I working
attorney

So I had my application

at the
and that was

attorney's
and Oldsmobile

In fact, I turned down a job at Oldsmobile

so with his help in calling on the personnel

for down there was a good group and I enjoyed

has
at that time they did, they had several projects

girl that was 20 years old and one was 45, you know who they're gonna
take.
and my brother worked
at Oldsmobile
they called me.
times before I finally went over there because
for the prosecuting
personnel,
a good group of people that I worked for down there, those attorneys
I worked
enjoyed the girls and all but the pay wasn't that good and Oldsmobile
had told me that they could get me into a project.
several projects,
going on all of the time and they told me, well, if I'd come in
there, they would get me in on one of those projects.
in the prosecuting
working
was in the Upper Peninsula
you've got to come to work here the next day or we're gonna pull your
application
since you've told us no and I said, oh, my God.
Upper Peninsula
on my desk.
What am I going to do and she says, well, I don't know
'cause I had always thought that I could have at least 10 days, you
know, to give my supervisor
told 'em, well, I'll be there but then I sit there at my desk and I
thought, what am I gonna do.
collect one of the other girls and I said, well, what would you do?
I mean, here I am with all these cases stacked up on my de.sk of all
these people that I've called that are coming into court the next
day, you know, and all these letters and everything
boss is in the Upper Peninsula
she just, Susie just said, quite.
and be gone.
these people I've called and they're coming into court tomorrow.
.not gonna be there.

office and my boss at that time
calls me and they say,

and you won't, as I said, because this is the third time

I've got a stack load of cases this high

and no way to get a hold of him and

Well, I went out to the other office to

She said, they'll reschedule

the cases and I said, all

It happens all the time.

Just write him a notice,

So I said, oh, my God.

My boss is in the

like that and my

So here I was

on a case.

she says,

So what?

notice.

So •••

So I

I'm

IA:

Dow:

•

IB:

Dow:

That's what you did?

the next day and took 'a

But we had, they have what they call, in the car,

and they put me in what they call the 150 Bu~lding

that's what I did and I went to Oldsmobile
physical
which was
driving cars off from the line after they were built and ready to get
to be shipped.
they have what they call a history card and that history card, you
learn how to read it and it tells you where this car is to be taken,
whether
completed.
some parts or different
that you'd have to take that car and park it, you see, like that •

Maybe it's missing
locations

It has, maybe it has to be repainted.

it's ready to be shipped or whether

reasons and then you have different

it has, it's not

!

Oh, well, that's interesting.

Yeah, it was kind of interesting

there.

But ah •••

Dow

Doris
2/19/92'
Page 15

IA:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

But it's not an office job.

No, it wasn't an office job but it was different.
than an office job and I kind of enjoyed getting away 'from the office
work for a chance.

It was different

Out from under the stress for just a little while.

Yeah, and this was different

Yeah, for a while.
Even though I
had never, I had never been in the factory before.
worked at REO for 20 years, 25 years, I had never been but through
the factor about three times and that was to walk from our office on
Washington
Avenue over to Baker Street for some reason that I had to
go over there and I usually had one of the plant protection
somebody take me through the factory.
factory was just to follow the guard through and it was, it was
really an experience

or work in a factory.

So my experience

and, of course,

to go through,

I mean •••

or

of being in a

I

A whole different

world, isn't it?

At that time, well of course,

is and it was very

people and learning all this but then it got, it got

world.

It certainly

It was very stressful.

You know, your mind wasn't working.

It's a whole different
stressful.
was kind of fun right at the first, you know, and meeting
different
boring.
doing was getting
driving another car.
that had the same job and it was this repetitious,
the time, takin' a car out and come back and it was usually
a day, 10 to 12 hours a day.
and it got •••

They were really working

in a car and driving

it out to the lot, back,

You stand in line 'cause there was other people
the same thing all

it
a bunch of

I mean, all you was

at that time

12 hours

18:

You said you made more pay?

Dow:

Oh, see, the pay was •••

IA:

A lot more.

That's what made the difference.

Dow:

was, and the benefits.

Yeah, that's what made, that was the thing that got me, left the
county because the county was paying low at the time and the
difference
at Oldsmobile
and the much better insurance,
were so much different
and because of my age and I didn't know whether
job or what he was going to do, you know, at that time •••

there and because my husband wasn't working

The benefits

much better pension plan and the wages

he was going to get a

was,

18:

You have to make these ••••••••

•

•

•

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 16

Dow:

Yea.h, and it was very scary at the time 'cause nobody was getting a
job and the only way you got a job was if you had any pull, you know.
So, but it was nice, and I 'stayed there for 15 years.

IA:

Doing that job?

Dow:

No, oh, no, no.

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

When did you go from that job to the next one?

Oh, God, I worked the line for a while.
different things •••

Because of cutbacks and

On the assembly line?

On the as, I went to, well, working in 150, what they call the 150
Building,
It's a building that is
set aside.

It's kind of, the end of the line building.

it's kind of a, it's set aside.

It's more like the final product?

The final product, yeah.

Ready to rollout.

Yeah, before, before they really ship the car and that's not really
factory.

I mean, it was a completely different •••

No, it's not really a ••••••••••

all the cars, you don't see anything in the assembling
They
When the cars come up there, they're all finished, you know.
had to be painted.
A lot of times they were missing maybe, oh, an
air cleaner or maybe the brakes weren't quite right or, it was kind
of a repair place although they, although they have a repair down on
the line, you know.
of it was interior, too.

But it was kind of fi~ishing touches and a lot

of the cars.

IA:

Oh, I see.

Dow:

Yeah, but mostly it was just sending the car out, waiting for new
parts or maybe the license bracket or something or other, you know,
had to be put on there.
out of 'em down in the shop an~ they' couldn't ship the car without it
or a lot of times, they put parts on, like whenever we sent a car to
Canada, we had to take off the rear view mirror on the outside.
This was due to export •
was due to export.

For some reason or other, they probably ran

This

IB:

So it wouldn't get knocked off in the shipment or •••

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 17

Dow:

Dow

No, it was something about, if the car, when they ship it to Canada,
if it's missing
see, that
car wasn't complete so they didn't have to \pay as much money if it
was an incomplete

like the rear view mirror on the outside,

car as they were if it was an assembled

car.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:• Dow:

IA:

Dow:

And they would just complete it in Canada.

And they would complete it.
and they'd finish it in Canada.

The mirror would be put in the backseat

Oh, my goodness.

That's interesting.

And it's, that's politics.

That's right.

That's politics.

Yeah, and that keeps the people up there working, too.

It keep 'em, well, no, we have a big factory in Canada, too.
it's just one of those things.

But

And where did you go after that?

I went to, well, they had several cutbacks and I went down on the
line for a while.
the office.

But that was terrible and from there, I went into

'

IA:

You did?

You finally got back into the office?

Dow:

•

here.

Yes, yes, I went back into, I went to the office down there and I
I'm not sure exactly
stayed in the office .for, oh, quite a while.
how long but I stayed in, well, then they needed, then they wanted
somebody, they started a new program where we have, Fisher Body is
over on the west side of town and Oldsmobile
Well, the cars
were starting to be built over in Fisher Body and then they're
shipped over here, not complete.
in Oldsmobile.
Well, so Oldsmobile
Oldsmobile,
their job or were not completing
wJ.rJ.ngswrong.
here.
for a number of years.
between the two companies there.
mediator between the two and try to solve problems that they would
have or find out why, why this problem.

They wanted somebody to act as a liaison
So I was picked to try to be a

There was tension back and forth and this had been going on

When they got over here, it caused problems/over

Well, they had a lot of things that were wrong.

One was a sealer problem

well, Oldsmobile

people said, Fisher Body were not doing

So they have to finish 'em up over

said, Fisher Body people weren't doing their job.

their job or they were sending their

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 18

which, you'd. have to work there to know what it is but they have a, a
lot of, well, you'd have to know.
there being built at the Fisher Bod.y but a lot of parts were, where
it come together,
come, come together
and. it's done by gun, a big, long rod.
but it's really a big, long rod and it has a sealer.
glue and they •••

in the seams, they have what they call a sealer
They called it a sealer gun

the metal parts on cars on the frame where they

You'd have to see the cars out

It's like a

IA:

Dow:

Like a caulking gun •••

A caulking gun or, that caulked these different
but a lot of times, the sealer would get into and cover up other
holes.

parts and one thing

IA:

Oh.

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

•

•

other holes, which when they got over here to Oldsmobile
would go to put their part in that hole, they couldn't go in there
because of this sealer problem.
it happened many, many times and so that car would go down the line
'cause they, the line was moving and the guy couldn't do his job and
it was due to the fact that over in Fisher Body, somebody was sealing
up those holes either intentionally
their job but not knowing what they were doing, not knowing that they
were causing a problem over here.

Well, this was a big problem because

or not intentionally,

just doing

and people

So then you would be called and you'd go over to Fisher?

I would have to go to Fisher Body and I'd ask the people, please
don't seal these over.
trying to explain to them why they shouldn't and why they should be
careful and at the same time, come back here and make peace with
these people and tell 'em, try to tell 'em why they're doing that and
it was, it was, many a problems were allover

Why, why are you sealing these holes?

the place.

I'm

You were a problem solver.

Sometimes the fixtures, yes, sometimes the fixtures didn't work right
and it was, it was a problem solving job.

Troubleshooting.

Troubleshooting,

yeah, they called •••••

Did you like that position?

Yes and no.
very careful.

It was stressful because you were working, you had to be
I couldn't go over on the line

I was from Oldsmobile.

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 19

because we have two different
walk up to that person on the line over there at Fisher Body •••

I couldn't

go over there and

unions.

IS:

'Cause you're from a different

union.

Dow:

Yes, hey, you're doing the job wrong.
me.

They aren't gonna take it from

IA:

Yeah, really.

Dow:

And yet, at the same time, I had to go through their supervisor
sometimes

could care less whether •••

a supervisor

which

IB:

He's makin' production

so •••

•

Dow:

Sometimes,

he didn't go out, whether

and he could care less and sometimes

He was making production
out and sometimes
very stressful.
myself on, at Oldsmobile
said, well, hell, I've been here for 25 years and you just been here
for 10 years or five years so who do you think you are trying to tell
me how to do my job, at the same time.
comin' and goin'.
and Fisher Body.

and at the same time, I had to watch
some of the people at Oldsmobile

And there was a lot of jealousy between Oldsmobile

You had to watch yourself

he did or not, it was

he went

because

IA:

Fisher, yeah.

Dow:

There was a lot of •••

IB:

Was there really?

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

Ooooh! A lot of jealousy to the extent of the supervisors
and it, it was •••

out there

That's an interesting ••••••••• I'd like to explore that one sometime.

But it, it was, I met a lot of people and I didn't have any trouble
with anybody.
supervisors
when I'd walk from, do you know the length of, you ever drive past
Fisher Body •••

I didn't have any trouble with anybody,

I used to go through there and

or the people themself.

the

IB:

Yes.

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

•

sometimes,
every department

just, just think and I walked both sides, up, through

in Fisher Body and every department

in Oldsmobile •

My goodness,

you got your exercise.

I have walked miles and miles and miles.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 20

Dow

IS:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

They should have paid her by the mile.

I'd a been a millionaire
I'd walk down those lines and they'd holler out, hi Doris, how you
doin' ..

I put in many miles over there and

today.

So you were doing a good job?

Yes, and many, many, and when I left there, when I left Olds, retired
from Oldsmobile,

Fisher Sody gave me a retirement

party, too.

IS:

Is that right?

Dow:

Yes, yes.

IA:

Dow:

IA:• Dow:

IS:

Dow:

That's wonderful.

That's quite a tribute to you.

Which they've not done with anybody else.
with, for anybody else.

They've never done it

For any outside person.

No.

Is that a fact?

No, they never, and even to the supervisors
high ones, when I had, I had a retirement
there was over 800 people.
retirement
from, all the way from Fisher Sody over to my retirement
after they had gave me one at Fisher Sody.

up in the office, the
and
They've never had as many people at a

party as what I had at my retirement

party at Oldsmobile

part even

party and people came

IS:

Dow:

For goodness
about?

sake.

Isn't it a wonderful

thing for you to think

Yes, and I have films about that, too.
on a video.

They recorded

it on a film,

IS:

That's great.

Dow:

Yes.

IA:

(Now, when everybody

left REO at the end, there were no parties.

There was nothing fabulous

I imagine.

Dow:• IS:

Oh, no, very terrible.

It was really terrible.

Let's go back to a happier time and you were working
REO and we want to talk about the girls' club.

in the office at

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 21

Dow:

Dow

Ob, the girls' •••

IA:

Dow:

IA:

I was gonna ask actually, to get us back to REO, what you thought
were the big differences between, I mean, obviously you worked in
Olds in the '70s and '80s so it was a different time, you know, I
mean •••

I worked, yes •••

The economy was different and the making of cars was different but
was there anything about the atmosphere between Olds and •••

Dow:

It was cold.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

• Dow:

IA:

It wasn't as warm or friendly or •••

No, no.
It was cold.
have no qualms about Oldsmobile.

I met a lot of good people at Oldsmobile.

I

But it was a bigger place, too.

But it was, it was a bigger, but the people were different.
people are different •••

The

At Olds, between REO?

Dow:

Yes.

IA:

Yeah.

Dow:

The people at REO, maybe it was the people that I knew.
because I, it was my first job, you might say, you know, one of the
first jobs.
Maybe it was because my other worked there and I, and
all, the whole, I can't really say that because everybody that has
ever worked at REO, they all say the same thing, that it was a warm
place, it was a family place and I didn't hear that at Oldsmobile.
They didn't care •••

Maybe it was

IA:

About you as a person.

Dow:

Ah, no.

IB:

Dow:

•

Or about the job they were doing, maybe.

Well, yeah, they cared about the job that they were doing but they
didn't care about you as a person.
that I
really noticed, at REO, if somebody didn't show up for work, we were
concerned about them, whether they were ill, whether it was a family
We, we did what
problem or what.
I mean, we really were concerned.
if
we could to make it easier for that person.

I, one thing particularly

At Oldsmobile,

•

Dow

Doris
2/19j92
Page 22

They don't even ask, well, what was the matter.

somebody doesn't show up for work, so what.
don't even care.
It's just that, somebody else takes, steps down and takes their job,
does their job and that's it.
I couldn't, didn't
people wouldn't come to'work, you know, and I said, well, whatts the
matter?
with Olds, you'll find a lot of people that just take a day off just
because they have other things to do or just tired.

Which is true, which is true.

They don't even, they

•••••••••••••••••••

Is she sick?

I think

Aw.

Just don't want to go to work.

Just don't want to go in where REO, it was usually because they were
sick or we knew why they weren't there.
It was
just, a different feeling completely.

It was much warmer.

And it was more because of the workers and their relationship
did, do you think?
each other rather than what the management

with

We were closer, management
very close.

at REO, management

and the people were

Closer at REO?

Oh, yes, yeah, they were very close.

Why do you think that was?
people or any specific policies or things that they did that made
them closer.

Were they more likely the same kind of

It was just, John Tucker was one of our, he

It was just the people.
was one of the, he was the president of REO when I went to work
there.
Everybody
was a tall, giant of a man, he was a wonderful person.
the janitors, the people that was down on their hands and knees
scrubbin' the floor.

••••••• , but Johl'l'Tucker,which
He spoke to

He spoke to everybody.

Wonderful person.

Yeah, we've heard that's true.

Nobody was beneath Mr. Tucker.

Yeah, well, it started way back with Olds •••

It started, yes, yes.

It comes from the top down, doesn't it?

He would stop and he'd talk to you in the hallway.

Um, hum, yes.
didn't make any difference what you did or anything like that there,
whether he thought you were doing your job or not, he stopped and
talked to you.

Like I say, he, but Oldsmobile,

you wouldn't

see •••

It

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 23

IA:

No.

Dow:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

You wouldn't see top management
or one of the sweepers.
definitely would never do that.

That would be way beneath

stopping and talking to the janitors
They, they

'em.

It's almost a caste system over there.

Oh, definitely,
few supervisors

but ah, and we had this with most of our, there was a
at REO in later years that wouldn't do it.

They got stuffy?

They, very stuffy but then there was others that were real good out
there and I think a lot of it had to do with the stress, too, that
they were under.

Yeah, 'cause things

But a lot of people, but as I say, John Tucker was a, and I think,
well, no, when I first went to work there, Mr. Scheer was there.
Mr. Scheer was real nice, too •

He was the president?

He was the president but I didn't get to know him like I did John
Tucker.

They were real nice.

So that was the difference you thought, in them?

The difference,

yes.

How about the other stuff like the clubs you were talking about
before and the kind of activities that went, that were organized
through ••••••••

Well, we had the girl's, the REO Girl's Club, that there, as I say,
that was made up of the girls in the office.

The office girls?

That was the office girls.

Was there something for the girls on, who worked in the factories,
too?

Dow:

At that time, no.

IA:

No, okay.

•

•

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 24

Dow:

The girls in the factory were later invited into the •••

IA:

Oh, good.

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Girls, but they, very, very few of 'em ever came into the Girl's.

I think that's true from what we know.

Yeah, most of 'em, they always said, well, the girls in the office
They were out there, their jobs were dirtier
are too good for us.
out in the, and they didn't feel right in coming in, sitting at the
table with a girl that was sitting next to her with polished
and nails and so on and so forth, when they were out in the factory.

shoes

Yeah.

And covered with oil.

Or covered with oil or whatever,
right but there was a lot of, a lot of the girls were enjoyed and we
always invited them in but they, very few, not too many of 'em ever
came in because they said, well, we were always too good for 'em
which wasn't true but I can see where they would feel that way.

They just didn't feel

you know.

That's what I think is so interesting
history,

is that you went back and forth •••

about your life, your work

Dow:

Oh, yes.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

from what I've been re~ding.
you're an office girl, that's,
factory, it's very hard to make that transition.

That's pretty unusual, you know, if
••••• pretty much if you're in the

to work into the office was very mind

It was, that transition
It was, I never thought that, well, I think
I'll tell ya.
boggling,
the, the only thing I, the reason why I think I stayed at Oldsmobile
was I ran into a girl when I first went into, went to work at
Oldsmobile,
when I went into this one building,
girl that I had not seen for a number of years.
automobile
only about 18 years old, I was in an automobile
my friends were killed.

accident several years before, when I was young.

accident and six of

150, I ran into a

I was in an

I was

Oh, my.goodness.

Yes, and ah, this girl that I ran into at Oldsmobile,
our clique but she wasn't with us that night.
in the hospital for six months unconscious •

she was one of
Well, over, and I was

18:

Oh, my goodness.

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 25

Dow:

Yeah.

18:

It's a wonder you survived,

isn't it?

Dow:

Oh, yeah.

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Were you the only survivor

from that car •••

The other five were killed.

I was the only, no, the fellow that I was with got out of it with
just a bump on his head.
the other four were killed but anyhow, I ran into this girl at
Oldsmobile.
ended, driving the cars out and she, she was kind of a loner.
was kind of a loner so I got reacquainted
just, and she had had years of, in there at Oldsmobile
knew everybody

in this, doing the same thing that I

She was working

(end side 1)

with her there and I, she

so she was,

She

Yeah, or four,

.................

I probably

it was so different.

couldn't of made it without

Yeah, yeah, right.
because
use your mind for and I thought,
people are just zombies, walking
after day after day and it's the s~e
on the line, when I went down on the line, it was the same thing,
putting this nuts and bolts on and screwing
it down and then waiting
for the next car and doing the same thing for eight hours a day and
I, God, my mind's not, my mind's not working,
do this, you know.

I couldn't,
oh, God.
around doing the same thing day

But ah, but back to the girl's •••

thing down, when I was working

you didn't have nothing to

What am I doing?

you know.

Anybody

These

her

can

IA:

Girl's.

Dow:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

club there, yes, we had a real good girl's club and we had quite a
big membership
shows.
style shows.
different

parties
We put on
We put on several charity,

Oh, we used to put on, oh, we'd put on showers.

and I have several scrapbooks

We had Christmas

of different

parties.

things.

and

A charity that would reach outside the factory into the community?

Oh, yes, outside the factory, rummage
make money, moneymaking
to outside as well as inside the factory.

projects,

sales that we would put on to

a lot of cake and cookies were sold

And did the company encourage

these activities?

Oh, yes.

Oh, the company was always behind us.

IA:

Yeah.

•

•

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 26

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

We had a club raom, we had a raom in

In the clubhause •••

.the clubhouse which unfortunately

is gone which really broke us up.

I think, I think that was, I ~hink that hurt, when they took the
clubhouse away, I think that hurt us as bad a~ losing, losing our
job.

The company, yeah.

Losing the company.

. . . . . . . . . . . . ..

childhood

.

Oh, it, it really, it really was.
a long time afterwards,
fact, I think most af us evade going down that street to this day.

none of us could drive down Washington.

It really was hard to take and for

In

Washington

or Baker.

I think we, we kind of, I can go down there now but I never go
Yes.
down there with what I think of the kind, that's where my office used
to be, right up there.
times that we had, the charity balls that we had.
we
used to, our bosses used to let us out to go over to decorate for the
different charities and we used to have, several hundred people would
come to our charity balls.

That's where the clubhouse was and the good

The decorating,

What kinds of things did you do charities for?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering.

They were fundraisers

for •••

Fundraisers,

they were, for the Marian Eilich Cancer Fund •••

Ah, huh, for cancer research.

For cancer research.
of equipment •••

We bought different,

several different pieces

IA:

For hospitals.

Dow:

For the Sparrow Hospital, yes.
a big wheel bed.

One in particular

that I remember was

IB:

Oh, this was •••

Dow:

Several years ago and it cost several thousand dollars.
people that were either burned or couldn't turn themselves.

It was for

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 27

IB:

Oh, like a striker frame?

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Yes, like a striker frame.
would put these people on there and ever so often it would •••

It was very new at that time but they

Turn so they wouldn't get sores.

turn, turn, and sores and things like that and we bought the bed and
then after we bought the bed, there was different components that you
could buy for it~ to •••

IB:

To add on to it?

Dow:

add on to it, yes.

IA:

IB:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Did you do things for the Y or other types of local organizations
churches?

or

Or blood drives?

Or blood drives?

Yes, we had blood drives.
we did.

I'm trying to remember some of the things

Hilda Smith was, in a picture in her album, there was a picture of
baskets of food and •••

Oh, the food baskets •••

For Christmas.

for Christmas, yes.

We always •••

And those, you said were for the REO families •••

For REO families, the needy REO families, yes.
probably don't have any of those pictures.
pictures at home and I'm sure Hilda has some.

I don't, no, I don't,

I have some of those

Yeah, 'cause we didn't know about that before we started, those
pictures.

Dow:

Oh, you didn't?

IB:

We didn't know that they, the club reached out beyond even their own
little group.

This is all new to me.

Dow:

Oh, yes, yes.

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 28

IA:

Dow:

You did commu!')itytype work.

For the community, yes.
first but anything left over was, ah, through the clearinghouse.
was always cleared through the clearinghouse.
girls will, I hope, I don't know whether she'll be there tomorrow,
no, she probably,

We took care of the REO people themselves

I'll have to call her and see if she can make it.

Now, a couple of the

It

18:

Who is that?

Dow:

Ardith Pappon.

IA:

Dow:

18:

IA:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Oh, we've met Ardith.

Have you met Ardith?

I'm really anxious to talk to her.

Yeah, we have to call her.

Okay, yeah, okay.
this fundraising

Oh, okay.

Now, Ardith was one of the ones that worked on

for Christmas.

I don't know whether she has any pictures.

Yes.
pictures of that there.
up of several different people, the union and the •••

That, that. was kind of, well, that was made

I've got a few

IA:

••••••••• participated?

Dow:

Yes, ah, huh.

IA:

Dow:

Did you go to the clubhouse as a child, too, because your mother
worked there?

No, no, I worked in Traverse,

I lived in Traverse City as .a child.

IA:

Oh.

Dow:

I never came down here until '42.

18:

Oh, during the War?

Dow:

During the War.

18:

Did she go to work in the factory during the War?

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 29

Dow:

My mother never did go to work in the factory.
the office.

She always worked

in

18:

Oh, I see, okay.

Dow:

Yeah, my mother worked, yeah.
work there but I came down here in '42.

I don't know what year she went to

IA:

Okay.

Now, you said you were born in Lansing but yet •••

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

18:

Dow:

IA:

No, I was born in Traverse

City.

Traverse

City, oh, okay.

Yes, I was born in Traverse
City.

Oh, okay.

City and I went to school in Traverse

And then you came down here and went to Acme Business

College.

Went to Acme Business

School down here, yeah.

~h, so you came here for business

college?

Dow:

Yes, um, hum.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

IB:

And your mom came with you?

My mother came with me and two brothers,

yes.

Oh.

And you all settled in Lansing •••

Dow:

And settled in Lansing.

IB:

Dow:

and she went to work at the REO.

And she went to work at REO and my brothers

went to school here.

IA:

Oh, I see.

Did she do clerical work up in Traverse

City, too?

Dow:

No.

IA:

She didn't?

Dow:

No.

IA:

Okay.

•

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 30

Dow:

Dow

No, that was, she did that before she was married.
Chicago.

My mother's

from

IA:

Oh.

Dow:

She had schooling,

you know •••

IA:

In Chicago?

Dow:

In Chicago •••

18:

Dow:

IA:

And once she was married

she was a homemaker •••

and then she married my, yes.

I wish I'd met your mother
in Chicago.
workers

'cause my first book was about clerical

Dow:

Oh, really?

IA:• Dow:

IA:

Yeah.

Unfortunately

my mother's

passed away.

Yeah,

'cause that's exactly the kind of person I wrote my book about.

Dow:

Yeah, oh, yeah.

Yeah.

IA:

That's interesting.
them was at Olds/but

And so you had two brothers
at some point one was at REO, too?

and you said one of

Dow:

Yes, yeah.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Okay.
knew from as a, knew about as an adult, working person.

So you didn't, so the clubhouse

was really something

that you

As adult, as adult person working

at REO, yes.

Okay, and besides the, ah, girl's club activities,
things that you did through the clubhouse?
movies there or •••

were there other

I mean, did you go to the

Dow:

No, I, that was all gone by the time •••

IA:

Oh, it was •••

Dow:•

IA:

Well, I, it probably was there in the '40s but I didn't have anything
to do with it.

Oh, okay.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 31

Dow:

Dow

I worked for other companies before I went to

As I said, I worked for, well, I worked for J.C. Penny

••••••••••••••••••
work there.
Company for one thing.
When I was in
that accident back in the '40s,/ I was working for the state back then
and then after I was in the accident there, that laid me up for a
I went back to the State
while and I didn't go back to the State.
but I didn't stay at the State.
it was back during the War, things had changed at the State so I left
there and went to work for J.C. Penny Company.

Things had changed at the State and

Well, I worked for the State.

IB:

Dow:

IB:

What did you do at J.C. Penny?

I worked in the office.

In the office?

Dow:

Yeah.

IB:

That used to be one of my favorite stores?

Dow:• IB:

Dow:

Oh, did ya?

That was when it was downtown •••

That and Knapp's, yes.

Way down there.

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

• IA:

Dow:

Well, it was right on the corner of Michigan and Washington.

Michigan and Washington.

That's when I worked there.

In the early times, yes.

Yeah.
up going to Flint.

I worked there for a while there but then I eventually

ended

I had some friends that were in Flint.

Oh, that's right.

You mentioned Flint.

And I was moving allover

at that time and

And you were single •••

I was single, traveling around, you know, ••••••••••••••••••••
job here, job there, everything
to do and then I met this fellow and I, in fact, I thought about
marrying him at one time but, but ah, then I got this, as I said, I,
they sent me to school in New York.

Didn't know what I wanted

like that.

this

Oh, for the dressmaking.

For the dress, yeah, managing, their way of, their way of •••

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 32

18:

Dow

Their way of doing business.

Dow:

doing things, yeah, business and all, one thing another but before
that, I worked in the store over there in Flint for, oh, quite a
while and then they asked me if "I'd like that, you know, takeover
manager because the woman that was there, her husband was ill and she
was contemplating
on leaving 'cause he'd had heart trouble, one thing
another and she was thinking about leaving the store and retiring.
So they asked me if I wanted, so that's how I went to New York and
got all that schooling.

IA:

Where'd you go in New York?
New York, too.

I'm just curious 'cause I'm from

Dow:

New York City.

IA:

Dow:

IA:• Dow:

18:

You lived in Manhattan?

Yeah, Manhattan, Manhattan,

yes.

That must of been very exciting.

It was.
they paid •••

Oh, it was wonderful

'cause I had an expense account and

Oh, my dear!

Dow:

they paid everything.

18:

Wow.

Dow:

IA:

18:

Dow:

I paid nothing.

They paid, they furnished, I had •••

That's like hitting the lottery.

Right.

Well, I, I was flown in there, .a car waited for me there, was waiting
right there at the airport there.
can't tell you the name of the hotel.
papers ,but••••

I wish I, I had those old

and they took me and I

Whenever,

IA:

I bet they took you to the 8arbazon.

That was for young women.

Dow:

No •••

18:• IA:

That's right.

No, it wasn't the Barbazon, huh?

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 33

Dow:

Dow

No, it wasn't the Baroazon.
Oh, it was a real fancy, fancy place.

Oh, •••

God, I can't remember the name of that.

18:

They didn't take you to something in a side street?

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

• Dow:

IA:

I had the best.

I had the very best.

and then off on the side was a little kitchen, you know,

Oh, no, no.
suite that I had was a huge, was one huge suite with a bed and
everything
and a balcony out overlooking
beautiful.
all I had to do was call and there was a car waiting for me and a
chauffeur and I was taken to the school and back and, of course, all
my expenses were paid.
that, they were all taken care of.

the river, you know.
But whenever I had to go anywhere or anything like that,

Whatever I wanted to eat or anything like

The room, the

Oh, it was

Oh, my goodness.

I spent not one cent of my own money.

Wow.

Or anything like that.
times.

That was all paid for.

I went over to Buffalo a couple of different

Were they annoyed with you when you decided to leave and not take
advantage of •••

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

They weren't very happy.

Yeah-,

•••••••

_e

••

after •••••

After counting on you and spending their money on you •••

Dow:

Yes, ah, huh.

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

• IA:

Dow:

and training you.

They weren't, but they were, they were nice.

They understood.

I just explained to 'em that my brothers was in the service, my
mother was all alone and, in fact, they give me a nice letter of
recommendation

and told me, if things didn't workout

•••

That you could come back.

that I could come back.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 34

IB:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

I

IA:

• Dow:

Dow

Oh, that's lovely_

Yes, that was real nice.
mean, yes they were upset because they had spent a lot of money but
they still ~ere, I was still offered to come back.

You know, I still have that letter.

I

Beyond the money, they had a worthwhile
be such a good employee that they hated to lose you, too.
that.

person here that was going to

I can see

Yes, well, of course, I was young enough, too, see, at the time and
this, this is always something that companies
look for, is somebody
young enough so that they can start you in down here and then you're
gonna be, work, you can work your way up.

Now, you, you were, you've been a working person your whole life.

My whole life, yes.

Your whole life, but a lot of the times during the '50s and the '60s,
at least from kind of, some of the things that I read, a lot of the
sentiment
women should stay home and not get in the work place.
anything like that, that maybe •••
encounter

in the, in this country or in the world was that, you know,

Did you ever

Never.

IA:

especially

in hard times •••

Dow:

Never.

IA:

that this should be a man doing this •••

Dow:

No.

IA:

Dow:

'cause he's got to take care of a family or anything like that?

I never encountered
the girls that felt like that either.

any of that there.

I never encountered

any of

IA:

Really?

Dow:

No.

IA:

That they were doing a good job.

Dow:• IB:

I never, I never had that problem.
awful lot about this but •••

I, I've read and I've heard an

Especially

in the '50s.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 35

Dow:

Dow

Yeah, especially
like that at all.

in the '50s but, no, I never encountered

anything

IB:

Dow:

IB:

It might be, too, the type of jobs •••

I might, that's right •••

office •••••••••••

Dow:

Yes.

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:• IB:

Dow:

'Cause people expected you to either be a secretary or a nurse or a,
you know, a teacher.

Yes, I think there was, I was always in the office, you know •••

And that made it okay.

and that was a woman's job.

Right.

By the time you got to alds •••

And I was single •. I was single, see, at the time.
been married, they would have said, well, you should be home taking
care of your family, you know, but I wasn't.
and I was •••

You know, I was single

Maybe if, had I a

IA:

Was it hard to do both?
to do it myself, you know, be a working person and have a family,
too?

I'm very interested in this since I'm trying

Dow:

It maybe, I don't think so.

lA:

Oh?

I'm tired all the time.

Dow:

Really?

IB:

Dow:

••••••••••••••••••

they know what it's like.

I look back on it now and a lot of the things I did then I wonder,
how did I do it?

IA:

How'd you manage.

Dow:• IB:

Yes.

I think the same thing.

How'd I do that.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 36

Dow:

Dow

That's right and I think, oh my God.
That's right.
of these people with a couple of kids, have two or three kids and
they're gettin' up and they got to get 'em off to school and, but
then I think, I stop and I think back, I did that.
and I didn't think anything of it at the time.

When I see some

It didn't hurt me

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

No, you just do it because that's what you have to do.

You do it 'cause you have to do it.

That's the thing.

How many children do you have?

I don't have any.

I had a niece that I raised.

IB:

Oh, I see.

Dow:

IB:

• Dow:

Dow:

IB:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

But I don't have any children, but I took my niece when she was just
two years old.

So that's the same thing.

Yes.

Really, with the responsibility

and the love and the care.

Yeah, uh, huh.

Did you, your mom help you though with •••

No!

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

My mother always said, I raised you kids •••

That's enough.

My"mother, my mother very seldom or ever babysat for us.

That's it.
We took •••••• with us whenever we went anywhere or anything like
that.
It was always, we took, but we didn't have, we didn't have
nursery schools and things like that, "like they have now.
working,

I dropped her off at a babysitter.

When I was

IA:

Oh, you had a sitter for her.

Dow:

•

In fact, I used to, I used to, I lived over on the north side

Yeah, for, when I was working and she was going to school and all,
you know, but I, and I look back and as I say, I think, God, did I do
that.
of town, I remember, and I had a girlfriend
at that time, I had a girlfriend that lived over on the south side of
town and she had three little kids, step, one right after another and
I can remember more than one time of coming over, on the bus 'cause I
didn't have a car and I would go get her children, I lived on the
north side and she lives on the south side of town, I would go get

and I didn't have a car

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 37

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

Dow

her children and take 'em over to my house which I lived in a three
room, small •••

To look after them?

to give her relief and her kids were all in diapers at that time.

That was very nice of you.

But I would take them home.
'em on the bus and the little boy invariably would wet his pants the
minute we'd go to get on the bus.

I'd take 'em on the bus, I would take

Yeah, yeah, I've been there, I know ••••

His ••••• would be soaking wet and I had to go all across town with
these three little children like that.

IA:

I bet she blesses you now for having done that for her.

IB:• Dow:

IA:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

• Dow:

Ah, she's gone now and in fact, I just went to the funeral.

Oh, my.

Oh, I'm sorry.

But they're all in their, older now.

I guess in their 30s.

I wonder if he still has that problem when he gets on a bus.

He lives over, he's a contractor.

Now, I don't know.

Oh, I bet he'd laugh.

Yeah, laugh, oh, yeah.

I can remember •••

He'd be embarrassed.

Yes, he would be embarrassed.
to tell him, when he was smaller, when he was 15, 16 years old,
Michael,
'used to do that but now I think, oh, my God.
'em clear across town.
doing that and taking

I can remember more than one time, you know, and ah, but I

He would be embarrassed

Can you imagine anybody

now but I used

Nuts.

Three little kids but I see people doing it, I see young girls doing
it.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 38

IA:

Dow

Yeah.

Dow:

You know.

IA:

It's just not easy.

It never was and it still isn't.

Dow:

It never was but I didn't think •••

18:

IA:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

• IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

I don#t think it will ever change.

NO.

You just do it because that's what you have to do.

No, but you do it at the time.

When you're responsible •••

But I think now kids, the kids have it so much easier nowdays then
what we did then.

Well, there are more, like .you said, there are more schools and
places to go.

There's more schools and things.
and all that, they have now.

We didn't have the nursery

schools

Of course, they have their own set of worries,

too.

Oh, well, that's different

now than what it was then.

But the basic thing is still there.

Dow:

It's still there.

IB:

IA:

Dow:

18:

The mother with the responsibilities

and never enough time and •••

And you still had a home to take care of.

You still had a home to take care of and a husband to •••

It's like wearing three different
almost.

I'd like to talk just a bit about the end at REO.

hats or three different

lives

IA:

Oh, okay.

Dow:

Very bad.
have seen it coming.

Well, we had, as I say, I suppose we could all, we should

IB:

Really?

Why do you think that?

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 39

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Well, and I'm not alone.
I've heard other girls, other girls talk
We always figured or at least I always figured that if,
about it.
well, we was changing, buying and selling, different companies were
buying and selling us.
We were always changing letterhead there but
we always figured or I did anyhow, that if things were ever gonna go
bad or close down that, well, we'd see the, the big supervisor
leaving.
vice presidents
something, something in the wind, you know.
see it through the correspondence.
it through the correspondence

Or ordinarily,
You know, you'd hear, you'd see

I always said, well, if I see so and so leaving and other

leaving, I'll know that there was

or get something some place.

and presidents

is

you would

Well, you typed up the letters so you had an inside •••

Yes, yeah, yeah, you would, but I always thought, well, if I see, and
you had certain people that you kind of look to, the vice president
or something, if he starts leaving, you know, if you see a run of 'em
start, you know, Y04'11 think, well, they're gonna look out for
themselves

even if they don't tell you.

That's right.

And they're sitting in on meetings that you don't have anything,
knowledge of or anything like that 'cause they used to always had
their meeting.
well, then I'll get out too 'cause I'll know that there's something
None of 'em ever left because none of 'em ever knew.
in the wind.

I thought, well, if anything starts happening,

•••••

IB:

Oh, is that right?

Dow:

Oh, no, no.
doing although we •••

We never knew.

See, we never knew that, what he was

IA:

Cappart?

Dow:

Mr. Cappart, we knew that he wasn't paying his bills •••

IB:

Oh, you did?

Dow:

Lots, some of us did.

Some of 'em didn't but some of us

Oh, yes.
knew that he wasn't paying his bills and depending upon who you knew
and what department that you were associated with or what, if you
knew the people in the cashier's office or, you know, that you were
friends with them, well, they might mention, well, he was in last
night and emptied the till.
This morning we didn't have any money
to, to, you know •••

IS:

Start with.

•

•

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 40

Dow:

Or if you knew one of his secretaries
of Water 'and Light was in today but he was right here but we was told
to tell 'em that he •••

and she'd say, well, the Board

IA:

He was gone.

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

he was gone.
something

like that, you know, and •••

He was in Virginia or he was in Mississippi

or

And supplier's bills and

Supplier bills would be coming in and they'd say, well, he'll take
care of it when he gets back, you know.

IA:

That's no way to run a business.

Dow:

No, no •••

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

It's scary being a secretary

for someone like that.

But at the same time, well, at the same time, see, we were,
understood

that he was a millionaire.

I've read that he was.

He had millions of dollars.

Oh, yes.
assumption
know that he was, what he was doing with all of this money.
didn't know what •••

that, hey, was going to pay, and at the time, we did not

So we were just under the

We

What do you think he was doing with it?

Well, he was taking it and, taking the money out of our company and
investing
companies.

it in his. other companies.

He had several different

I know he had the mobile home company •••

He had the mobile, he had farm machinery.
in Wyoming and through there and then he owned some, a lot of real
estate.
paying off bills other places, see.
came to work on April the 5th and the doors were locked.

He was taking the money here and

No, none of us knew it until we

He was into real estate.

He had farming country out

IB:

Oh, my God.

Dow:

•

We never knew it.

We never knew it
Oh, yes.
until we came to work and I never will forget, I only lived about
three blocks from REO at that time and I'm walking down the street
and all of these people are standing out in from of the

We never knew it.

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 41

administration
building.
why are a,ll these people
building was right down the
standing out, and then the engineering
hallway, or down the street and I'm saying, why aren't those people
going in to work, you know.

I'm wondering

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Oh, my goodness.

You know, why are they all •••

You must have had this horrible feeling in the pit of your stomach.

Dow:

No, no.

IB:

Dow:

Maybe you wondered

if there was a fire inside or •••

As I'm walking down the street and

Avenue and I'm, why is this crowd of people out

Well, I didn't know.
walking towards my job from the, well, I lived close •••••••
walk to work but I'm walking down the street, there down
Washington
there in front.
Well, it was, it
Why aren't they going in.
was April, it was the spring of the year so you're thinking,
well, it's nice out, was quite common to see people standing
out in front with a cup of coffee or something
like that in
the spring of the air, if it was a nice day, you know, and it
was nice that day.
But that was too many people and then, as
you get there closer, you see the chains on the door.
know something has happened and, of course, you're looking at
the chains on the door and you say, why, and there's this
big •••

You

IA:

Notice.

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

sign on the door there.

What did it say?

Ah, just closed for, it didn't say •••

Like till further notice or something?

Further notice or something
something •••

like that there.

Report tom9rrow or

IB:

What did you all do then?

Dow:

•

Well, we just all stood around there and talked and we didn't really
It was
know what was going on 'cause there was no bankruptcy
just, just closed.
probably

just, it's really hard to remember but as I say, I think we

We didn't know what to think and so I guess we

then.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 42

Dow

just, oh, a day off.
it was like, come back tomot,"rowor something

Great, you know.

like that.

Come back tomorrow.

I think

IA:

Was there anything

in the paper that day?

Dow:

Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah.

IA:

Then you knew?

Dow:

Yeah, then, yeah, then as I say, my scrapbook,
which I was kind of lookin' through yesterday.
you know, as I went through
fact, I still got 'em, you know, I still got ••••• anything we get
from the bankruptcy
there.

••••• my scrapbook
Very discouraging,
In

'cause I saved all of the scraps.

like that, I stick that in

court or anything

IB:

So you went back, say the next day and •••

Dow:

Probably the next day •••

IB:• Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

IA:

Whenever

it was you went back, it was still locked?

Oh, yes.

Yeah, oh, yeah.

Were you ever brought

in and told what was happening?

That was it, yeah.
No, no, no.
allowed back in there later on to clean out our desk and •••

We was never, that was it.

We were

Well, I suppose bankruptcy

officials

or whatever,

standing

about?

Supervising?

Dow:

No, there wasn't anybody.

IA:

Wasn't there really?

Dow:

•

People were walking

out of there, now we know,

No, in fact, that's why none of us can figure out why didn't we, we
didn't take so much, why didn't we take a lot of stuff.
left so much stuff.
with type, people what were more brazen and one thing another, we
walking out of there with typewriters
that there.
stuff, oh, we had several pieces of our girl's club, our china and
different
We
only went in and cleaned out our desk, taking our personal,
'cause
they told us to come in there and clean out our desk, take our
personal
in and we cleaned out our desks and took our personal

They just walked out but, in fact, our girl's club

things, only our personal things out of there.

things that we just left.

and calculators

things but we

to come back.

We expected

So, we went

Instead, we

and things like

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/1'/92
Page 43

IS:

Dow:

still,' all of us, left a lot of stuff that, 'cause we really figured
we'd be back.

You know, we didn't expect •••

Just another one of these change overs and •••

Yeah, it was, we just figured, because, we figured it would just be,
wouldn't be a short time at all and then they'd, somebody would buy
us and we'd be back in business.
So, a lot of stuff we left there.
There was a lot of coats, shoes, oh, different things, radios and,
you know, personal things that you carry, that you have in your
office there that you just don't take home.

IA:

That's right.

Dow:

You know •••

IS:

What do you think ever happened to things like the china in the
girl's club and •••

Dow:

Oh, they all went into the trash.

IS:

Ohl

Dow:

Oh, yeah.

IS:

Those would be collector's

items now.

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

Oh, they definitely

would, yeah, yeah.

Well, the whole clubhouse

should of been a museum.

Oh, the clubhouse

should have been saved, yeah.

•••••••••••••
there but •••

feel pretty bad about that, too, and I didn't even work

I remember
green vases, they were little green flower vases •••

some, and I see 'em in antique shows now, they're

little

IS:

Little glass ones?

Dow:

•

Little glass, they used to have green ones, you know, but ah, our
girl's' club used to, we bought up several hundred of these little
vases and then when somebody was ill or something
get the flowers and take 'em to the, put 'em in, take 'em to the
hospital.
I see those vases now, $5 or so in antique places where we
paid, probably gave 'em 50 cents for, you know, 'cause we bought up a
bunch of· 'em.
We left 'em all there.
clubhouse went down, those were there and different
things that were left there.

things, different
So many, many things that we should of

They all went into, when the

like that we would

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 44

saved; you know, pictures in frames that were,pictures
beautiful paintings that were on the wall were left.
some of them, some, different things were put in the auction.
had a big auction sale.
auction sale.

A lot of different things were put in the

on the wall,
Some of those,
They

18:

Furniture,

I suppose, desks •••

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

Furniture and stuff like that but there was many, many things that,
of value, that were gone.

We've got two chairs, two or three folding chairs.
I think they're
back in the archives room now that came from the clubhouse, the old
wooden folding chairs.

The old wooden, folding, um, hum.

And they've got a little plaque on the back saying they're from the
REO Clubhouse and they were donated, I got a phone call one day from
a, the Pentecost Church, I think, on the southside and said, we're
remodeling.
We've got enough money to buy new chairs.
that came from the REO Clubhouse.

Would you like them?

We've got two

Dow:

Oh, yeah!

IB:

IA:

I said, yesl

Probably, you know, a whole book could be written about how they got
from the REO Clubhouse to that church.

Dow:

Yes, to that church.

IB:

Dow:

You know, there's a story in everything.

There was a story in every, well, when I think back of

Oh, yeah.
some, all those things that, oh, we just, they're just gone.
really makes you sick.

It

IB:

Yeah, it does.

Dow:

Different things •••

IB:

Dow:

•

I guess that clubhouse represented
that's the thing that makes it •••

so much of everyone's

lives,

It makes, not just the people that worked there.
There was people
outside of Lansing that, you know, went to the dances, the charity
balls there.
clubhouse.

Well, they had several, the clubhouse, they rented the

Many different clubs rented it.

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 45

IA:

Dow

Oh, us.ed it, I see.

Dow:

Yes, used it.
performed there •••

The boy scouts, the girl scouts, several weddings were

IS:

Oh?

Dow:

IA:

Big, oh, yes, several big weddings.

So it's like a community center.

Dow:

Yes.

IS:

IA:

Dow:

IS:• Dow:

IS:

It would have been the civic center if it'd stayed, wouldn't

it?

Yes.

I wonder if Vern Hyatt, Vern Hyatt was our custodian for the
clubhouse.

Vern could go on for hours.

Is he living in Lansing?

No, he lives in Webberville.

In ,Webberville.

Let me see if we can find this man.

IA:

Yeah, really.

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

IS:• Dow:

Now, Vern has, I may have his address and all, too, but I know Fern
Fla •••• has his •••

Okay, okay.

I know that she does.

Great.

She has his address. We've been out, he has several pieces of, well,
I should say pictures.
knows what he stole, took out of there.

I don't know what all Vern has got.

God only

Well, it was either that or it ended up •••

Sut he was custodian of the clubhouse for •••

A long time?

Ah, huh.
40 years.

Several years.

I don't know.

1,1

would probably say 30,

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 46

Dow

IA:

Oh, my 900dness.

He goes back.

Dow:

Oh, he 90es back.

IA:

IS:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

IS:

Dow:• IS:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Alright, we ought to find him.

Oh, definitely.

He's a card to talk to.

'Cause we're, I'm very interested in the early years, too, from the
'20s and '30s.

Yeah, he, he worked for, he worked for several so if you do, take
your recordin9

'cause Vern'll 90 on for hours.

Great.

We love that.

That's wonderful.

Yeah, but it was, but I really enjoyed my time there.

I think you did.

I was sorry to see that it ended.

When you, when you worked at REO and then also later at Oldsmobile,
did you li~e down in Lansing?

I've always lived in Lansing.

Downtown Lansing?

Dow:

Yeah.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Did you have a house or did you and your husband rent an apartment
or •••

We rented an apartment.

Okay, downtown Lansing?

Dow':

Well, we rented, no, we rented •••

IA:

Moved around?

Dow:• IA:

Moved around, different parts of Lansing, yeah.
house.

We now own our own

You have a house now?

•

-.

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 47

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

IB:

Dow:

Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah.

On Moores River Drive.

Yeah, we have rentals and we have houses because we're both retired
now.

Did you realized any benefits from your retirement?
he took the money out of the retirement,
you, were you able to •••

I mean, I know
the pension funds, but did

What, the only thing that we were, we got was awarded through thi.s
government,

the PG •••

IA:

Yes, somebody mentioned that to us.

Dow:

The PG •••

IA:

Pension Restoration
told us that.

Dow:

Art Fram, yeah.

Fund or something like that.

Who told, Art Fram

IB:

IA:

Yeah, I think he did.

He said it's very small though.

Dow:

Very small, oh, yes.

IB:

•••••••••• percentage.

Dow:

Yes, like after, after 25 years there, all I get is $112.

IA:

A month?

Dow:

A month, yes.

IA:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

I mean, it's better than nothing but •••

Oh, it's better than nothing •••

certainly not what you would have otherwise.

but it's, it's that, they came in with that government,
protection

agen, a protection •••

that, it's a

IA:

He gave us the letters •

Dow:

PG •••

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 48

18:

IA:

18:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

I'll have to listen to my tape again •••

Yeah.

where he told us about that.

It may be in some of those papers there, that I got there.
or something
something

like that, government

Qr other.

pension,

no.

Pension government

It's PGCI

That's okay •••

In case of, of people, companies
over by the federal government.

going into bankruptcy,

it's taken

IA:

Right.

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

•

And you don't get, you don't get any cost of living raises or
anything

like that.

It's just a flat •••

It's just a flat and that's it.
you had to have 10 years in there.
a lump sum rather than draw it out once ever month.

Now, a lot of people, they said that

A lot of people, they have taken

IA:

Oh, that's right.

We heard about that, too.

Dow:

Yeah, some people have been offered •••

18:

I think

••••••••• talked about that.

Yeah, have been offered,
sometimes
other people have taken a lump sum rather than draw it out.

they get in contact with them,

Draw it out.

Whatever

is best for you.

Whatever
I both.

is best.

I prefer to take mine once a month, my husband

and

And you know that's coming in.

Now, my husband only gets $90 a month.

It's a percentage

but it's no where near what you would have •••

Dow:

18:

IA:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

IS:

•

•

•

•

(

Dow

Doris
2119/92
Page 49

Dow:

Oh, no, no. At the time, at the time, we should have been getting,
at the time of this, back in '85 had we retired at that time, back in
'75, 1975, the pension was $800 a month.

IB:

So you can see the difference right there.

Dow:

Now see, that was what Oldsmobile was paying. We had the same
contract that Oldsmobile.

IB:

Oh, you did?

Dow:

Now, yes, we had the same, basically the same contract.
that was back in '75, if you retired you would get $800 a month.
That's what Oldsmobile was getting. Oldsmobile now gets, $1,800,
$1,800 to $2,000 a month when they retire.

REO was,

IB:

That's a lot.

Dow:

That's a lot, yeah. About, the average worker over there at
Oldsmobile gets a $2,000 •••

IA:

I think that's more than professors get when we •••

Dow:

Yeah, $1,800 to $2,000.

IB:

I don't get anything.

\

Dow:

But ah ••••

IB:

I've heard, too, I've heard and several of the men we've talked to
have talked about suicides and •••••••••••••

Dow:

Oh, yes.

We've had, we've had seven different people commit suicide.

IA:

Seven?

Dow:

Seven different people commit suicide.

IB:

Due •••

Dow:

Indirectly •••

IB:

To, to what happened?

Dow:

To what happened, that they couldn't see their way to go on.

IB:

Their whole life was kind of just•••

Dow:

Well, yes.

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page SO

18:

down the drain.

Dow:

They, they •••

18:

Dow:

Everything they've worked for.

and we've had several, several deaths due, I'm sure, this had a lot
to do with it.

18:

Indirectly.

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

18:

IA:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

Indirectly,
being able to, well, especially,
supervisors.
anything.

it was related to that, that there, the stress and not
and most of these people were all

I mean, they weren't union so see, they weren't getting

Yeah, they had no protection.

They had no protection whatsoever.

Hum, I hadn't thought about that before.

Yeah, somebody mentioned that to us also.
now.

I can't remember which one

Yeah, they weren't getting anything and their Lnsucance and
everything was taken away from 'em.

After that day, when you went down and it was padlocked
day it was still locked, did they, were any of you workers ever
called together somewhere for a meeting and this was explained to you
that this was, we're out of business. You're out a job.
getting something or •••

and the next

You will be

Not that I remember.

No, just •••

Just read it in the paper.

We just read it in the paper.

I don't
Just read it in the paper.
remember ever having, like you say, being called back, no.
We had
several meetings before and between times, every time a new company
took over, we always had an assembly after work or something like
that, where they poured out the beer or the pop or coffee or so on
and so forth and introducing the new bosses.

18:

Here we go again •

Dow:

Yeah, here we go again.
looking good or things were bad at the time but we cut back here but
we'll make a go of it.

No, I don't remember of ever going back.

We had several of them and things were

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 51

Maybe somebody could jog.my memory but I don't remember of ever going
back.
I went back several times -and talked to, now the sales
department was kept open.

18:

Oh, to finish up what was still under •••

Dow:

IA:

18:

Dow:

To finish and for quite a long time.
department?

Who worked in that sales

••••••••• Rankin.

Oh, Rankin was in export sales.

No, this was, I can remember going back and

He was export sales.
sittin' there but you know, I can't think who I went back, 'cause I
can remember sitting there the day that they went to court.
remember the last time that they went to court.
There was about, I
wish I could remember who it was but there was about five of us and
the attorney that we had representing
upstairs and he told us that he was going to Grand Rapids to the
court and he said, don't worry.

REO was downstairs

I have a buyer •

I can

and he came

IA:

Oh, wow.

Dow:

IA:

Dow:

18:

This was the last day that they went to

He says, I have a buyer and he said, so don't worry.

And he says, I have a buyer.
court.
says, we'll be back in business.
was like 10 o'clock, you know, and we sat there till 1 o'clock
waiting for his telephone call from Grand Rapids, saying that
everything
who it was, that was gonna come through and buy, it was all •••

had gone through, that he had the buyer and I don't know

I'll call ya and I think the court

He

It never happened.

Never happened and never was.

Oh, it never was?

•

Dow:

Oh, never was.

18:

Dow:

That was a lie to start with.

No, it was just a lie.

IA:

Oh.

Dow:

18:

•

It was just a lie, just a lie.

This was an attorney, that was REO's attorney but this was obviously
Cappart's man.

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 52

Dow:

Yeah, yeah, well •••

IS:

Dow:

And this was told, to tell all the rest of you to keep you calm or
something.

Will Johnson was there.

Well, tJ:lerewas a bunch, we were, there was a, I think there were
five of us.
See, the place was closed but we could get in and I
can't remember who, I can't remember who was in that office.
Somebody, one of the girls was there and Will Johnson was probably
He was sales mariager at the time.
there.
think he was there.
but his secretary was there and she would take any incoming calls,
you know, and everything
if anybody was calling for trucks or, of course, they were always
calling for the latest, the sales or the vendors or the suppliers,
you know, or these different
still hoping that they could get their trucks, you know., they could
put their order in; in still.

like that 'cause they were still •••••••••

I don't know where Will is now.

companies that were ordering trucks were

God only knows

I

IS:

I just can' t •••

Dow:

Oh, yes.

IS:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

••••••••••• of this thing happening

and how far reaching and •••

Oh, it was allover.

A catastrophe.

Oh, calls, I can remember sitting there, you know, this is terrible
but I cannot remember who the secretary was.
went in there to see.

Somebody will have to jog my memory.

I can't remember who I

But you could go in?

So, I only

So, I would walk

to see what was going on, you know, and ah,

Oh, yeah, we could walk in and out any time we want.
lived a couple of blocks from REO at that time.
over there ••••••••••••••
but I remember that day very well, very distinctly,
attorney saying, now don't, there was more than myself.
probably a half a dozen of us sittin' there' cause people would drift
in and out all day long trying to find out the latest news going on
or if there was anything, you know, that they knew, anything
that 'cause our spirits were pretty low by that time, you know, and
ah, so, now, I can remember him saying, don' t worry, you know, I'.ve
got a buyer and we'll be back in business
oh boy,
good.
1 o'clock, we finally decided we •••

We're sitting there waiting for his phone call.

so we're thinkin',

of him, the

There was

About

like

IA:

You realized, yeah •••

•

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 53

IS:

Dow:

IA:

IS:

Dow:

IS:

That you'd been duped again.

There wasn't, there wasn't going to be any phone call, that we'd
been, and then we read it in the paper, of course, the next day or,
not, I think then, at that time we were gettinga'paper
Remember when we used to get a paper twice a day?

twice a day.

Get an early edition ••••••••••••

Yeah, I do remember that.

Sut, it wasn't about, ready to happen 'cause most always the paper
would say, well, the REO's gone.
gone, there's still hope, you know, and so on and so forth.

The REO's almost gone or it's not

One of the gentlemen we talked to and then some papers that
Hr. Rankin gave me, oh, that's where I got, from something I was
reading that he loaned me, that the truck sales were up.

Dow:

Oh, yes!

IS:

Dow:

IS:

Dow:

And it wasn't as if, you know, sales were ddwn, nobody wanted to
order those products, they were up.

Oh, yeah.
for bankruptcy than we'd ever had in the history of REO.

We had more orders on the books the day that we went out

Isn't that incredible?

And people were calling in begging, put.their names on the list.
I'll take one.
because our trucks sold for $50,000 to $100,000 a piece.

I'll take as many trucks as I can get

I'll take 10.

IA:

Oh, my God.

Dow:

At that time.

IS:

They did?

Oh, they did?

Dow:

Oh, yes.
Our trucks sold for $50,000 at that time and these
different vendors of these different companies were ordering,
take one, I'll take two, I'll take whatever I can get where they
would ordinarily order just one or two.
wanted to make sure that they were on that list, that when we went
back to building trucks, they were gonna get it, see.

Put me on your list.

I'll

They

IA:

Wow.

Dow:

They were gonna be on that list for those trucks and as Ed said, yes,
we had more trucks on the order at that time.

Sut, nobody could buy

• Doris

2/19/92
Page S4

Dow

You had to buy the land.

He, you couldn't come in and buy

'cause you had to buy the business.

That, so you had, you had the business, you had

us the way Cappart had us set up.
the business
business.
buy the buildings.
to pay $300,000.
all but you had to have the buildings.
Then you had the land that you had to buy.
all this property and split it into different companies.
could come in and say, well, I'll give you $100,000 for your business
or a million dollars or whatever because Cappart had split it all
into several different companies.

They were another $100.,000.
See, he had taken this,
So nobody

Then you had the buildings which were no good at

That was another.

That was one

You had to

IA:

Dow:

18:

Dividing contracts.

Dividing, taxes, and taxes •••

Can you imagine even trying to untangle that mess.

Dow:

Oh, yes.

IA:• Dow:

18:

Dow:

Yeah, yeah, well, that's

Yes, that's right there.

That's another reason he did it probably.

You buy thill, you buy, you, he had it all broken down into, and

Yes.
if you will notice in his paper there, his, he did that, the same
thing with his mobile company, mobile business.
Every, every little
corner th~t he could take a hunk out of for tax reasons or otherwise,
thay/s what he did.
irqpossible•••

So nobody could come in and buy us.

It was

18:

Dow:

18:

Dow:

Well, that explains something that I've always wondered.

to come up with that much money, that would come up with that much
money, you know.

And then, on top of that, they would have to, most people would have
to come in and tear those buildings down and put up new ones 'cause
those were a •••••••••••••

Well, those buildings were, those buildings were, they were adequate
to build the trucks and ~hings like that there.
worked in those buildings so they were willing to go along with that
there and as you made money, but you had to, you had to have people
that put the money back into the company, not take it out to take it
somewhere else.

Those people had

IA:

That's right, you have to reinvest.

•

•

•

Dow

Doris
2/19/92
Page 55

Dow:

IA:

IB:

Dow:

IA:

IB:

Dow:

IB:

You had to reinvest.
time, several people were trying to get together and buy the
business.

There was many, many people, in fact, at one

Yeah, we heard about that ••••

Oh,

••

e : •••••••••••••••

Yeah, tried to, employees buying it but they couldn't because they
couldn't come, it was impossible to come up with the amount of money
that he wanted to buy these different parts.

Parts.

Even if you'd had the money, just the legal tangle •••

The legal tangle of •••

Of trying to •••

Dow:

Yes •

IB:

••••••••••••••• daunting.

Dow:

Yes, it was terrible.

Well, it really, it really hurt.

IA:

We've heard that from everybody.

Dow:

Yeah.

IA:

Absolutely.

Dow:

IA:

It did certainly •••

From the, you know, all levels.

Dow:

Yes.

IA:

Every level.

Dow:

IB:

But as I said,. no, not even the, not even the supervisors themselves
had any inkling that that was what was going to happen.

Now, that's the first time I'd known, have heard that.
interesting.

That is so

Dow:

Yeah •

IB:

Sad.

•

• Doris

2/19/92
Page 56

Dow:

Dow

Very sad.

IS:

But imagine how he was able to keep everybody
just by not being there, I suppose.

from knowing,

I mean,

Dow:

Just by that, not being there.

IA:

Yeah.

Dow;

Mildred

his •••

IS:

What a slick •••

Dow:

IA:

Yeah, his right hand.

Oh, yeah.

We heard about her, too.

Dow:

Oh, yeah.

18:

• Dow:

Dow:

IA:

Oh, what do you know about Mildred?

I'm interested

in

I don't know anything about her.

We've heard a lot of gossip about that.

Yeah, you hear a lot of gossip.

Yeah, you hear a lot of gossip.

18:

I've heard that she was the hatchet man, that when somebody
fired, she was the one that •••

got

IA:

Call them in.

Dow:

·18:

Dow:

She did it.

Yeah, well, she did all that, yes.

Plus I heard that she was, had bodyguards.

Well, she was the one that was there, yeah.
that was there.
it would be at night, you know •••

See, he never was there and when he did come there,

Well, she was the one

18:

Oh, really

•