WI • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 1 IA: I think I'm alright. I'm just gonna check. IB: IA: This is December 3, 1992 and this is Lisa.Fine, Shirley Bradley at the R.E. Olds Museum and we're going to interview Marvin Grinstern. The first thing that we usually start with is just to get some background information. We don't have your address since you contacted us by phone, so if you could give that to us. Grinstern: 2700 Eaton Rapids Road, number 276, Lansing, Mich, 48911 IA: And were you born here in Lansing? Grinstern: Right, I was born where the airport is right now. IA: And you went to school here, too? Grinstern: Yes. IA: Did you go to high school? ~ Grinstern: Graduated from Lansing Everett. IA: Oh, okay. Grinstern: '41, Ervin and I went to the same school. IA: IB: Okay. You went into the Army and he went into basketball. Grinstern: Yes. IA: Oh, you went into the Army after high school? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: 1941, he probably was drafted. Grinstern: Yeah, I was drafted in '43. IA: Oh, in '43, just like my dad, a late comer. Okay, and did you start working at Reo after the War, when you came back? Grinstern: • IA: No, I didn't go to Reo till 3/4/65 • Oh, okay, 1965 and between 1943 and 1965, I mean, when you came back from the War in 1965 ••• Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 2 Grinstern: I started Hill Diesel(?) in '41.· IA: Here, in this building? ••••••• • Grinstern: Yeah, and then I went in the Army and I worked for three months '46 after I come back and then I went in farming and then I went back in '51 for a year when they folded up and then I went to farming. in IB: '51 when the Hill Diesel folded? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: And you went back, did you always have the farm or did you sell the farms and ••• Grinstern: No, I went to live with my grandmother. IA: IB: Oh, you were at your grandmothers. And she had a farm. Grinstern: Yeah. IB: Out near Eaton Rapids? Grinstern: Out to Perry. IA: And then stayed there farming until '65 when you came back to the Reo. Grinstern: '65, yeah. IA: Went to Reo, okay, and what did you start at at Reo doing, what kind of job. Grinstern: Was a janitor. IA: You were a janitor, okay. Grinstern: Best job in the shop. IB: You can get allover people. the shop that way, get to know a lot of Grinstern: I was a janitor mostly on, yeah, Baker street where the hospital and the personnel offices were. IB: Oh. • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 3 IA: And which particular shop was that that you were the janitor or did you just get around, allover the shop? Grinstern: Well, yeah. IA: Allover Who was your supervisor? the shop, okay. And who were you, who'd you answer to? Grinstern: I had several. IA: You had several at the time you were there. 1965 to? And you stayed from Grinstern: June of '75, I guess. IA: '75. Grinstern: Just before, after they folded, yeah. IA: Okay. You didn't come ••• You moved to Lansing when you began to work at the Reo? • Grinstern: No, I lived out to Perry then. IA: Oh, you stayed out in Perry, also. Okay. Did you ever marry? Grinstern: Yes. IA: You did, okay, and you lived out there with your wife? Grinstern: Yeah, I went through a divorce in '87. IA: Oh, okay. What year did you get married? Grinstern: '54. IA: 1954, okay. Any children? Grinstern: I had one daughter, 29. She lives in Phoenix, Arizona. IA: IB: IA: Okay. OUt where the sun is shining. Yeah, right. • Grinstern: IB: Born on Christmas Day, weighed 3 pounds, 15 ounces • Oh, a preemie. Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 4 Grinstern: Yeah. IB: IA: Well, we've had experience with that, both of us. Yeah, both of us. Grinstern: Really? IA: Yeah, my daughter's a preemie, too, but she looks great now. Grinstern: Little girls got a big world to grow in. IA: And so the period between '65 and '75, you were out in Perry? Grinstern: Right. IA: Okay. working And did you work also on the farm still when you were at Reo? Grinstern: IA: You helped out on the farm, too. things did you do out there? What kind of farm, kind of Grinstern: Oh, crops and beef. IA: Oh. Grinstern: I quit milking cows in 1958. IA: Okay. there? Why did you work at the Reo? Why did you decide to work Grinstern: Did what? IA: Why did you decide to work there? Grinstern: I had to have a job. IA: And it just happened to be the place there was an opening. Grinstern: Yeah, I had a friend who lived out here, foreman and he got me in over there at the Reo. IA: Oh, okay. The fact that your dad worked there didn't ••• Grinstern: No. IA: have anything to do with it? • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 5 Grinstern: No, no. IA: 'Cause we've heard a lot of different, from other people, that lots of different families, you know,get their kin in. Grinstern: Yeah, I suppose. years later he got killed there. No, Peter Eymann got me in there and a couple IB: IA: In the shop? He got killed? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: What happened? Grinstern: Well, it's a long story, I guess. IA: That's alright. IB: We've got time • • Grinstern: He was in charge of salvage and scrap and stuff and this Clare Loundenslager come in and try to do some shady stuff and Pete didn't go along with it and so he got fired and he was off, I don't know, a year or two and finally got called back and, of course, he'd been a foreman for years and they demoted almost like say the yard gang and it was, these long railroad,or truck frames that are probably 20, 30 feet long and they were piling 'em, they had a stack probably about that high and the overhead crane had a sling and after they piled them, when the crane got movin', the sling caught the pile and tipped the pile right over on Pete. IB: IA: Oh, my. Was that common, that kind of thing happening? Grinstern: No. IB: IA: No. It was unusual to have those kind of accidents. Grinstern: Yes, it was one of them things. IB: Good heavens. His name was Clare Eymann? • Grinstern: Peter Eymann. IB: Oh, I'm sorry, Peter Eymann. • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 6 IA: And so he was your contact to get the position at Reo? Grinstern: Yes. IB: He was your friend and neighbor and then, I M MAN? Grinstern: E Y MAN N. IB: Later on if someone has to type this up and they N. E Y MAN won't have any idea how to spell things. when he came back, he was demoted. department? That's why I ask. He had been a foreman in what So Grinstern: Be over salvage and scrap. IB: Salvage and scrap, that's right, you did say that. Grinstern: IA: Of course, there was a lot of underhanded Loudenslager once before and when he come back, why, ••••••••••• had been there before and he got fired out of there things going on. same boat. Why did they have a disagreement personality or ••••••• worried about doing things? to begin with? Was it Grinstern: No, I don't know, Clare was trying to get stuff out of there and Pete didn't go along with it. IB: Take stuff out, you mean? Grinstern: Sell stuff out of his ••• IB: On his own? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: I guess I've heard some place about him taking things up to a materials? north woods cabin or something, materials, building Grinstern: Yeah, the carpenters things that Reo purchased. go up there and build cabins for him out of That was no secret, I mean ••• IB: We've heard it several times. Grinstern: Sure, sure, I know you have. IB: Grinstern: And so that's maybe one of the reasons Mr. Eymann objected he was doing? Well, he was a strong Catholic man and just didn't believe kind of thing. In fact, Clare had a place out here on Holt Road • in that to what • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 7 where he got stuff out of the Reo and was selling to truck drivers and stuff. it out of there 18: Just anything, parts and materials, any kind, anything. Grinstern: Gas tanks and batteries. IA: 18: Oh, my gosh. Gas tanks and batteries. Grinstern: Of course, see you could take these aluminum stainless steel ••••• gas tanks ••••••• 18: Worth something probably, huh? Grinstern: Sure. IA: • Grinstern: 18: Probably supervisors doesn't make you feel real loyal to a company when the or managers are doing things like that? in Well, see, he got fired out of there, I don't know, probably the early '60s and then when, right after White Motors probably come back, they hired him back. 'Course he's a pretty sharp man. I was just wondering, bad record but ••• why would they hire back somebody that had a Grinstern: He was sharp. 18: but he was a good organizer That's why they wanted him. and get somebody and train somebody or work somebody up. knew they weren't going to be there that long, maybe. and whatever, I suppose they didn't want to stop could get the work done. They Grinstern: Well, he had been there a long time. before the war. I think he worked there 18: I think so, too. Grinstern: It's no secret what went on there. I'm not telling any stories 18: No, you're not. what kinds of things, you know, he took. We've heard a lot of this before. I didn't know • IA: Grinstern: And that kind of thing was going on more towards the end? Well, it went on there earlier, too. Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 8 IB: Oh, it did? Well, today in GM, workers take home parts. know if they're doing it as much as they used to. I don't Grinstern: Well, the workers don't take as much out as the big guys do. IB: IA: Oh, I suppose they had more of a way of doing it. As a janitor, did you belong to the union? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: The regular local with the rest of the ••••••• Grinstern: Yeah, 650. IA: 650, right. We haven't heard a lot of activity after World War II on the part of the union. There didn't seem to be much going on in terms of striking against the company or anything like that. Grinstern: No. IA: Before the War there was some, of course, you were just mentioning ••• Grinstern: Yeah, well, when the union first started in in '37 but, oh, I guess there was trouble and stuff but they seemed to settle it, I guess. Of course, the Army contracts, they had the Army contracts all the time. IA: How did that affect the labor, you know, relations? Grinstern: Oh, I think so, I think so, yeah. IA: How did it, what kind of effect did it have? Grinstern: Well, they were guaranteed work all the time. IA: The workers were. Grinstern: Yeah. IA: They always knew that there was going to be something to do. Grinstern: Yes. IA: Yeah, and so that, that might make them, put 'em in a better position though to ask for higher wages or things. Grinstern: Well, yes and no, I guess, that Reo was never the highest paying place in Lansing anyway. • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 9 IB: That's true. IA: Right, like from the beginning. Grinstern: Yeah. IA: IB: Yeah. And when those contracts were out there wasn't work and they'd have to lay you off. Grinstern: Well, they had pretty steady contracts up till the end. IB: IA: Up till the end. From the Navy, right? Grinstern: No, the Army trucks. IA: • IB: Grinstern: It was the Army trucks. During the War they had a contract with the Navy, too, to make detonators, I think it was. Oh, I suppose, yes. IB: You mentioned earlier that your father was there in the strike of '37? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: What do you remember about that? guy. You must of been just a little Grinstern: I was 14 but I can remember we used to go there and talk to him through the windows. IA: Now, when did he start to work at the Reo? Grinstern: In the late '20s, probably. IA: Was it his mother that had the farm? Grinstern: No, it was my mother's mother. IA: It was your mother's mother that had the farm. city guy? So he, was he a Grinstern: No, my dad come to this country in 1916. • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 10 IA: Oh, he came, he was an immigrant. He came in 1916. Grinstern: Yeah. IA: Where'd he come from? Grinstern: Out of the Ukraine. IB: Oh, that's interesting. We've got some Ukraines in our family. Grinstern: Well, they were Germans out of Russia, the Ukraine at that time, of course, we went through two wars since then but I didn't realize at the time but I've met a lot of people that were German that come out of Russia. Germany and then they had the Bolshevik Revolution in when, 1916, some where in there ••• Of course, the Bolsheviks run 'em out of IAl '17. Grinstern: Yeah. IA: Right after that but there was what, trouble way before. Grinstern: And then they run him and his folks out of Russia. IB: IA: My gosh. Did he come straight here? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: He came to Lansing? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: Why did he come here? You don't know. Grinstern: A relation was here. IA: There was already a relative, and he got some, he was young then actually so••• Grinstern: Well, he was 16. IA: Yeah, he wouldn't work right away, maybe. Grinstern: He went to Lansing Company. Lansing Company hired all them. IB: Lansing Company, what ••• • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 11 Grinstern: They made wheel barrel down there on the corner of Cedar and Saginaw where the apartments are now. IA: IB: IA: Oh, sure. Yeah, Riverfront Apartments. Yeah, right by the river. wheel barrels? So there was a shop there that made Grinstern: Wheel barrels and platform carts, you know, to pile stuff on. IB: Like the baggage carts for the railroads? Grinstern: Yeah, yeah. IB: 'Cause we had one on display here for a long time and I didn't connect where it came from. IA: And then he went from there to the Reo? • Grinstern: Yeah, I think so. IA: Grinstern: Yeah. And he met your mom here? I think so • IA: Did she work at any of these places? Grinstern: No. IA: No. Grinstern: No, she worked at Freeman's Iron for a while. They had a few women pickin' rags and stuff in the wintertime. IB: IA: Picking rags? •.........•...•. ? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: IB: What was that? I've never heard that one before. Me neither. • Grinstern: Freeman's Iron and Metal on the corner of, well, it'd be Center Street and Maple. IB: Oh, Freedland ••• Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 12 Grinstern: Yeah. IB: LAN D? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: I think I've heard of it and picking rags, what is that? Grinstern: Well, they, I don't know, they'd get rags of different size and color and stuff and I suppose they'd had to sort of 'em out into bags and stuff. IB: Oh, like cleaning.rags and such? Grinstern: ~eah, yeah. IB: That's interesting. Grinstern: And I think she worked at American Dry Cleaners when she was a IB: IA: girl. A young girl. But she wasn't from Ukraine? Grinstern: No, no, she was born here. IA: Okay, and then your dad went to the Reo some time in the late '20s, you think? Grinstern: Yeah, I think it was. IA: What kind of job did he do there? Grinstern: He was a machine operator. IA: Oh, so he must of got some skills? Grinstern: Well, I suppose they ••• IA: Somewhere where ••• Grinstern: Well, they looked after one another•••••••••••••• looked after IA: Somebody from his country, you think, took him into the shop and showed him what to do? Grinstern: I don't know. I've got a magazine here somewheres that ••• • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 13 18: Oh, do you? Grinstern: That guy there, come out about the same part of the old country. It says there he come out of Poland but he come out of the same area that my folks did, my dad did. 18: IA: 18: Andy Ristow. long time Reo •••••••••• This must be, ••••••• Poland ••••• Oh, that looks like an interesting article. Saga of Yeah, yeah. Oh, the old lawn mowers. grounds now, isn't it? It's kind of shocking to go by the Reo Grinstern: Look across there, of course, they got two buildings there now, finally. 18: What is that, yeah, what is that new one on Washington? Grinstern: That's not a new, wash rags and shop rags and towels and stuff, I think • 18: That huge new building, is that right? Grinstern: Yeah, yeah. 18: It doesn't seem like it'd need that much space. Grinstern: Well, •••••••••••• ~ansing Sanitary Laundry or something like that, isn't it. 18: Oh, is that what it is? Grinstern: I think so. 18: IA: 18: Oh, okay. That makes sense then. That's interesting. Yes, oh, I'd like to have a chance to read that. Grinstern: I found one magazine where my wife's granddad was in there. IA: Oh, is that right, a Reo Spirit. Grinstern: I think got in in the late '20s. He was 86 or something, died a couple days, or worked up till a couple days before he did • 18: Is that right? • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 14 Grinstern: Yeah, yeah, we were quite surprised going through the magazine find his picture there. IA: So your wife's grandfather also worked at the Reo? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: What was, do you know what his name was, what her maiden name was? • Grinstern: Jimmy Hayes, I think. IA: Jimmy Hayes, HAY E S? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: So her grandfather worked there and your dad worked there. worked there from the late '20s till? He Grinstern: Well, you know anything about Reo, you know they get a contract for busses and they'd work day and night for maybe two weeks and then you wouldn't see 'me again for, they'd be laid off for three, four months and he worked off and on there up till, probably till ~ about '40 and then he went to Hill Diesel. • IA: Oh, he did, too. Grinstern: And after Hill Diesel folded, he went back there for a little while again. IA: When you were a child and a teenage, did you, did you all go to the clubhouse and ••• .. Grinstern: Oh, yes. IA: take advantage of all the things that the company had? Grinstern: The free shows, yeah, yeah. IA: The movie pictures, they had there. Grinstern: That was quite a place, a radio station, a bowling alley and everything there. IA: That's right, that's right and your family participated in all those kind of things? Grinstern: Yeah, we lived on center street down here. 'Course we didn't have any money. We walked down there to the Reo Clubhouse. • IA: And they had sports teams, too, other kinds of stuff. • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 15 Grinstern: Oh, yeah. IA: Did he, did your dad do any of that? Grinstern: No, no. IA: They were in the city leagues. No? that, that their baseball think it was just a job or did he think it was a pretty good place to work. reading team was in the city leagues. I remember Did he about Grinstern: No. IA: He didn't like it? Grinstern: Well, he liked it. wasn't much choice. You had to like it. Back in them days, there But like, as opposed to working shops that were in town? Didn't make any difference? at some of the other automobile Grinstern: No. This is a fascinating magazine. Yeah. I'm just noticing there like that. Fascinating. the car out here. That's a '09, a 1909 Reo, •••••• 1915 Reo. We've got one on display out We were just talking about the pictures sports teams, you know, all kinds of activities in the clubhouse and the that the ••• That they used to engage in. they had in the '20s mostly. some of the activities I was just noticing later with the girl's club and the Steering Gear and all that. This isn't something that the average worker really took part in. here in the clubhouse No, not later on. I know my mother didn't. Grinstern: The Steering Gear Club was mostly supervision. IB: Supervision. IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 16 IA: IB: Supervisors. And the girl's club was mostly the office staff••• Grinstern: Office staff. IB: secretaries and stuff. You mentioned working in the, being janitor in the unit where the hospital was and we have yet to be able to talk to anybody that was in the, near the hospital unit. I kind a perked up my ears when you said that. Grinstern: Ardith Pappon, she was a nurse there for years. She's still alive. I saw her the other day at that dinner over there. IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: We have tried so hard to interview her. We had ••• She's a busy lady. She is busy and we had an appointment all set up, what, August ••• Sometime in, yeah ••• And •.• September, I think. She came down with the flu or something. She got sick. And then I called her a month later and she was on her way out of town so we're gonna try again. Grinstern: She had a lot of authority there at one time. IB: Did she? Grinstern: Oh, very much. IB: She was the head nurse over the entire hospital? Grinstern: Yeah, yeah. 'Course back in the early days when they had, I don't know, 1,000 people working there, there's probably stories in here about her but they had several nurses and I think even had a doctor there. IB: I think they did, too. somewhere that they sometimes would send people to, it seems like I remember. Then they had a Reo doctor downtown • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 17 Grinstern: Well, I don't remember. IB: If something was more ser.iousthey would send them downtown. Grinstern: Probably, probably, back in those days, yeah. IA: So your dad participated in the strike? He sat down for a month. Did he stay there the whole time? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: He did? That must of been hard on your family having him away that long. Grinstern: Yeah, but see, there was five of us kids. IB: Oh, there were? Grinstern: And we had every disease, chicken pox and 'course back in those days, they quarantined the house, you know. IB: Oh, yes. Grinstern: 'Course he lived in the front part of the house and they even had the doorway, they had tape on the door, you know, so you couldn't go from one part of the house to the other and I remember mother and dad used to talk through the keyhole. IB: So he was used to separation. Grinstern: Yeah, yeah. IB: Oh, golly. Yeah, we've heard about food being sent in by the community to the men in the shop. Grinstern: Oh, yeah. IA: We even had, one guy told us his dad was there and he brought him in, just to look around for a little while to see it and he said it looked like they were having a lot of fun in there. Grinstern: Oh, I suppose for a while but, you know, after ••• IA: Yeah, it gets old after awhile. Grinstern: after a few days when you ain't got any money in your pocket. IA: But he believed in the union •••••••••• • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 18 Grinstern: Well, that was their only recourse at that time when the union started. IA: Grinstern: Right. years even before the strike, apparently. There had been some movements for the union a couple of Apparently. they could fire and hire at will, you know. whatsoever. But see, people don't realize back in those days, You had no security IB: I wonder maybe there weren't health or ••• any kind of benefits either, like Grinstern: Oh, no. that time. There wasn't any unemployment or anything like that at IB: If you got hurt and were out of work, you were just out of luck. Grinstern: Sure. IA: Did your dad and mom have a house for the five of you? all live in a house? Did you Grinstern: Yeah, my dad lost the house ••• IA: On Center Street, you said. Grinstern: in the Depre~sion. IA: He lost it in the Depression. paying, he had a mortgage on a house? But uP. till that point, you were, Grinstern: Yeah. IA: Yeah, that must of been hard, too, so you had to move to an apartment or rent a house? Grinstern: No, they bought a little, five acres out on Miller Road. raised on Miller Road after that. I was IA: IB: I don't know where that is. It's south of, you know where ••• Grinstern: You know where Meijer's store is? IB: Meijers on South Cedar ••• Grinstern: On South Pennsylvania ••• • • • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 19 IS: IA: IS: South Pennsylvania and Cedar. Oh, sure, yeah. Yeah, Miller's there. Grinstern: I've got to tell you a little story about that. IS: IA: Good. Okay. Grinstern: Where the Meijer store is, there used to be a farm right there on the corner of Miller and on the farm there used to be a creek running down through there. Meijer's store is right now. I used to trap muskrats right where IS: My dad used to work for, I'm trying to think, there were two farmers, Grabowsky and I can't think of the other one and they had property right out there in that area, too. Grinstern: Grabowsky's was on Jolly Road. IS: Um, hum. Grinstern: Yeah,I went to school with the Grabowsky boys. IS: Did you? Grinstern: Yeah. IS: At North Street School? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: Yup, that's where my dad went. Grinstern: What was his name? IB: Russell Albert. He's a lot older than you. I think he's 84. Grinstern: I don't remember the name. IB: No, he's ••• Grinstern: Did they live around there? IB: Well, he lived with these, he lived with Grabowskys. Grinstern: Oh, really. Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 20 IS: Grinstern: He was out on his own when he was 11 years old and he had to find a place to work, a place to live. story but he worked for Grabowsky pretty hard to work for so then he went to the adjoining for awhile and Grabowsky was farm ••• It was really, it's a long IS: Went to the adjoining farm and worked for Satenfield. Grinstern: Dewey Satenfield? IS: IA: IS: Yup. Oh, this is ••• My gosh. Hey, we're having old home week here. Grinstern: I have, the Lord has blessed me with my knack for remembering names and faces and people and stuff and ••• IS: Yeah, he and stewart were good friends, my dad and stewart. stewart was killed during the War. Now, Grinstern: See, the, the two Grabowsky had a brother and a sister and they were just left out. boys are fairly smart and then they IB: IA: And I think, didn't some of them work at 'cause some of them moved in on the south the Atlas, what used to be the Atlas Drop area and I think they worked at the shop. we in the scheme of things. the Reo, the Grabowskys out by end of Lansing Forge, lived in that Let me see, where are Well, I was, we were talking about his dad and the union mostly and I guess the next thing I was gonna ask was that things changed for the better after? Grinstern: Oh, I suppose they did. IA: They did. Did you, do you remember anything Grinstern: Well, not too much, no. course, then what, the Wagner Labor Act come in and they got overtime I suppose, they had security and stuff after that. and, of IA: And he stayed there through till the War and then went back to Reo? Grinstern: No, they laid off in about '40 and then he went to Hill Diesel here in about '40. Of course, I got out of high school, I was 17, • • • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 21 I couldn't get a job nowhere so I set pins in a bowling alley down in Detroit. IS: Oh, you did? Grinstern: And then after Pearl Harbor, why they started hiring at the Reo or Hill and I was probably second, third person to get hired in there. that way for years, I guess. Originally they only had a crew probably about 20 and it's IS: And then you started right in working on ••• Grinstern: I was a tool crib operator. IS: Oh, okay. Grinstern: Run the tool crib. But see, they went from probably 20 people to about 5, 600 during the War. IS: To produce engines ••• Grinstern: 'Course they had a place •••••••••••••••• had a building there and they had a building •••••••••••• along over on Kalamazoo and they had a place over there by Clara's Restaurant. place in there. They had a little IS: IA: Oh, they did? Sy the tracks. Grinstern: Yeah. IB: And they all, all these little buildings all belonged to Hill Diesel and they built engines. Grinstern: Well, they leased the other three out. IB: Oh, I see. They needed more room because they had a bigger contract and they had to have space. Grinstern: Yeah. IS: And they produced engines that were used for••• Grinstern: Auxiliary engines and then, I don't know, they done a lot of wrappin' and packin' of parts and stuff down here. gone at the time. I didn't pay that much attention to it. 'Course I was IA: Did any of your brothers or sisters work at Reo? Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 22 Grinstern: No. IA: No. Grinstern: No, they were all smarter than I was. IB: They didn't think it was a good place to get it or the pay wasn't that good or ••• Grinstern: One brother went to the aIds and retired out of the Olds and the other brother, he's a, oh, backhoe operator. IB: Did your sisters ever go to the shop to work? Grinstern: No, no. One sister worked for the state of Michigan for a while But but, then the other one stayed right to home with the kids. her husband worked there. IA: He did? Grinstern: He had 28 years in there. Draws abqut $126. I draw $50.36. IB: This is what was left to you from the pension debacle, huh? Grinstern: Well, the Guaranteed Benefit Pension Corporation, whatever, pays me. They guarantee 10 years. IB: Ten years worth of work you're saying? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: Boy, a lot of people really••• Grinstern: I was quite fortunate. I got into the post office shortly after that. IB: IA: Oh, you did? Oh, you got a job at the post office after it closed. good. That is Grinstern: But there was a lot of 'em was 58 years old or so that couldn't, where was they gonna go. Too young to draw Social Security and nobody wants to hire anybody 58. IB: No, I've even heard of, well, we had a volunteer here for a while, I can't think of her name right off the top of my head but her husband just went all to pieces. Grinstern: A lot of 'em did. • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 23 is: Nervous breakdowns. and they qot, like you, just a tiny bit out of it. was a de~perate He was never able to do anything time for them and I've heard of suicides after that She said it and ••• Grinstern: Oh, have you? IA: Yeah, we've heard about some suicides. Did you see it coming? Grinstern: I did, sure, sure. Hill Diesel, after people didn't want to believe it I guess but ••• The handwriting ••••••••••• was on the wall, especially ••••••• I could see it. A lot of IA: And you weren't, obviously you stayed till the end till •••••••• Grinstern: Well, I wanted to get 10 years in. IA: Oh, I see. Grinstern: Grinstern: • IA: IA: IS: I wanted to get 10 years in. You did what you could ••••••••••••.••• what were your, you know, your hours and ••• When you worked there, I worked nights all the time. You were a night worker. Four till midnight or something? Grinstern: Yeah, 4:30 till one or something like that, I guess it was. IA: IS: IA: 4:30 p.m.? So you start just after that afternoon shift. And five days a week? Grinstern: Yeah. IS: Did you, were you ever able to get overtime and double time and all of that good stuff. Grinstern: Very little, very little. IS: • Grinstern: IS: Very little. Repair foremen Oh, really? Why do you say that? Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 24 Grinstern: Oh ••• IB: They purposely Grinstern: Well, I don't know whether they purposely the overtime and bled the company. done it but they got all IA: The repair, is that what you said, the repair shop did that? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: Well, I can see where they would jam up parts or something, them to salvage and •••• send Grinstern: Well, no only the jam up but they had so many trucks, they had over 500 trucks in the park lot over on Washington waiting with one or two parts missing and then they'd get another hot truck and they'd go over there and steal parts off of that truck tti finish this one up. Maybe a truck would go over there for parts and stuff. at one time Avenue IA: Oh, my gosh. Grinstern: For you got through, maybe that truck over there was a skeleton, see. IB: Oh, a hot trucks, what ••• Grinstern: Well, somebody that ••• IB: Somebody wanted it, it was ordered? Grinstern: •••••••••••• they had to have it ••• IB: Had to have it right now? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: So they'd go over and scavenge parts off the one sitting on the lot. Grinstern: Yup, sure, sure. IA: That doesn't sound like a good way to run a company. Grinstern: Well, what were they gonna do? IB: This was towards the end when ••• • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 25 Grinstern: Of course, the trucks, see, were all specialized. just every truck come down the line, wasn't the same. They weren't, IB: Oh, is that right? Grinstern: Just like these big trucks you see on the highway, you Oh, yeah. know. chrome exhaust pipes and the other one don't. One's got airhorns on and the other one don't and one's got IB: These were all like preordered they needed. so they had already specified what Grinstern: Yeah. IB: IA: Grinstern: • IA: Okay. came out the same and then something was added to it later. Well, that's interesting. I guess I just thought they all I think somebody once mentioned features of the Reo truck. to us that that was one of the One of the strong features • Right, that you could get what you wanted, lot of made to order, a lot of special specifications could do for you. 'cause they all required special attention. But then it made it harder to get 'em ready you know, there was a that they Grinstern: Well, yeah. IB: toward the end when they didn't have maybe the money to Especially get all the stuff they needed. probably, real sense of what was happening coming. you know, you're talking to everybody so you could get a As you went around the shop, you in the shop and that the end wa~ Grinstern: Yeah, but nobody seemed to really care. IB: IA: Oh, yeah? You don't think so? Grinstern: No, I don't think so. IB: You didn't hear a lot of panic and worry? Grinstern: Grinstern: • IA: Somehow they thought it was all scare and they couldn't believe • Even the workers on the line? Oh, yeah. .. .•. • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 26 IA: Really? Grinstern: Everybody I don't, that was my opinion. Yeah. it could happen to somebody else but it ain't gonna happen here. But you know yourself, and there's nothing there. company bought right here, the man didn't take anything out of the pension He just signed promissory note. The pension plans have been, another Just like fund. notes for $5 million and never paid the 'em up, bought the pension plans out. how many people are getting ready to retire you know, thought, IB: That was here when, this was ••• Grinstern: Frances Cappart ••• IB: Museum was ••• Grinstern: No, that was ••• IB: • Grinstern: IB: Oh, Cappart from the Reo. Yeah. gonna be there forever ••• No, it was •••••••••• people thought that, you know, it was Well, he, sounded to me like from what I've heard that he was a good one for making promises things and making good speeches, kind a like a politician. ••••••••••• making Grinstern: IA: IB: IA: Grinstern: •• ~••••••••••••• this isn't the only outfit he ever bought out broke. track record for that. he bought up American Seating and ••••••••••• He had a Yeah, we've heard that from other people, too. We have. That he', that was his specialty. Sure. finished truck somewhere He owed $16 million so he had his money. for parts. Those parts went into a IA: 'Cause he got paid for the trucks? Grinstern: Sure. Sure. IB: • Grinstern: I see you've got a lot of nice pictures and things there • That was taken down to the motor plant. there. That's my brother-in-law Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 27 IS: Oh, your brother-in-law worked there, too. Grinstern: Yeah. Charlie Young there. He worked at, in personnel. IS: IA: Does he look familiar? Yeah. Grinstern: That guy? IS: Yeah. Grinstern: I don't know what his name is. the other day. I saw him at the retiree dinner IA: IS: Grinstern: He looks really familiar. He looks like somebody we've talked to. And that guy there, Ernie Nostrand, Olds. superintendent, He was a janitor over at the Olds to start in. I guess, of the motor plant. he ended up going over to the He was IS: Oh, he ended up at GM as a janitor. Grinstern: Yeah. IS: Lot less pressure. Grinstern: Yeah, but his age, see, probably pretty lucky to get in there even. IS: IA: IS: IA: IS: Oh, I guess that's true, yeah. Reo Items. Was this like a monthly news, I've never seen this one. No, I haven't either. Was this like a monthly newsletter that you got? Grinstern: Oh, this, see, back in 1951, '52. you can have. I think there's some duplicates IA: You have these 'cause of your dad? Grinstern: No, I got them when I was janitor and they was getting fold up. ready to .. • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 28 IB: IA: •••••• '53. Oh, they were just laying around somewhere? Grinstern: They had 'em stored, yeah, •••••••••• IB: Oh, this wasn't something that everybody got a copy of? Grinstern: Everybody did back in those days, yeah. IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IS: • IS: Grinstern: Sut he wasn't working there then. Well, this is '53. So that's why I was, right, so that's why I was, you know, curious about how he got it. That's right, he didn't go in till '65, he said. Well, that's interesting. in a box somewhere • So they were just sitting in a corner This looks like it was a parade downtown, maybe, in Lansing. I don't know. There must be a story on the inside there about it. Another Reo eager beaver. Was that big, was that that truck? That was a truck. The truck that went in the water or something. Grinstern: Um, hum. IA: Now, there's Ardith Pappon. Grinstern: Yup, yup, attractive woman, very attractive. IB: We've met her, you know, through the luncheon and things and I have that opinion, She seems very nice. too. Grinstern: Well, she's no kid no more either. IB: None of us are. Grinstern: • IB: IA: Don't tell her I said that. Don't tell her I said that • No, we won't. Write that down. Turn off the tape. Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 29 Grinstern: I'm gonna revoke it. IB: IA: Free chest x-rays will go to all employees. Oh, my goodness. This is from March, 1933. Oh, this is a part of the Reo Spirit. Grinstern: Here's one, June, 1932. IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: Wow. I have not seen this. Look at the art work. Yeah, wow. Cy Raff, we've heard his name quite a bit. Yeah. Oh, here's an article by Red O'Brien. I noticed he passed away. Grinstern: Charlie, yeah, he just died here a short while ago. IB: IA: Yeah, three, four months ago or something. Do you remember seeing these when you were a kid. your dad bring this kind of stuff home? I mean, did Grinstern: Yeah, yeah, I never, 'course••• IA: You didn't pay much attention to it, though? Grinstern: No. IA: Wow. Well, there's Clare Loudenslager. Grinstern: Yeah, yeah. • • IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: Oh, yes ••• He looks kind of like what you described him. There's Ardith again. Joseph Scheer, president of Reo Motors. Wow. These are really great. They sure are. Well, this whole article is about the Scheer ••••••••••••••••••••••••• Reserve officers tour the Reo Plant. • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 30 IA: Now, this ••••••••••••• was by Arthur Sinclair. who managed the clubhouse. He was the one IS: IA: IS: IA: IS: Is that right? Um, hum, in the '20s. And does he, we have his name, don't we? I don't think so. to check. I don't know if he's still around. I'll have I know we had two names. Grinstern: That lady right there. IA: Hilda Hill. Grinstern: • IS: Grinstern: Name was Hilda Carter at one time. She was in plant protection for years and years. I didn't know they had women on plant protection • Started 'em in during the War and she was one of the very few that stayed, I think. IS: Is that right? What, plant protection, I know they were out at the main gates checking people coming in with their badges but •••. Grinstern: Well, did mostly fire watch, when there was nobody in the shop, like nights and weekends, they had certain clocks they had to punch around the clock. check if there was any fire or anything. 'Course, they would make their tour, see, IS: Oh, they would completely make a tour of the plant on their shift and check everything. Grinstern: Yeah. IS: Oh, I didn't know there were women on plant protection. that's so interesting. I think Grinstern: Probably during the War they had quite a few of 'em, I don't know. IS: Oh, I wouldn't doubt it. Grinstern: Sut I know that she ••• She stayed on. • IS: • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 31 Grinstern: Yeah. IB: IA: Oh, isn't that interesting. And they didn't give her any problems because of that? Grinstern: No. Yeah, she's, quite a lot of harassment. IA: IB: Oh, she did? Oh, she did go through harassment. Grinstern: Yeah. Maybe you ought to talk to her. IB: Is she still alive? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: IA: Oh? What is her name? And what's her name? Grinstern: Hilda Carter, now I think. IA: Carter. Grinstern: Yeah, she got remarried and she lives on Donora street here in Lansing. IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: Oh, I used to live the next street over. What's the name of the street? Donora, DON 0 R A. That's where Burt Reynolds used to live. Oh, wow. I tell you what, the neighborhood's changed a lot since I've lived there, too. That's very interesting. We've been trying to find more women who worked during World War II. And we've had a difficult time doing that. IB: Grinstern: Well, that's 50 years ago. And not just, oh, I know, but there are lots of the office staff gals around and we've talked to lots of them but to find a woman • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 32 who worked on the line or worked, say, plant protection which I didn't know or worked in the hospital, first aid. Grinstern: Well, see most of 'em got laid off after the War. IA: IS: IA: Right, right and then went on to do other things. may have been unmarried then ••• Some of them Or their husbands came back from the service. and then changed their names. Grinstern: Are those the same. IS: Yeah, those are duplicates. Grinstern: You can have one of them. IS: Well, thank you. • IS: Grinstern: Grinstern: If you want it• Oh, love to have it, you bet. Ah, plant protection. And there should be another one of those somewhere. IS: I've got one over here. Is that what you're looking for? Grinstern: Well, I should have one here, too. have this, too. I have this one here. You can IS: IA: Oh, okay. These are both duplicates. Oh, wonderful. We could keep 'em right here in the Museum. Grinstern: That's alright, that's alright. IS: Thank you. Grinstern: I promised one of these to my daughter so. IA: Does she have a certain feeling about the Reo? Grinstern: Oh, yeah, she kind a likes that stuff, I guess. IS: • Grinstern: We have been hearing from various people that we've talked to that everybody sort of felt like family. Did you feel that way, too, like you belonged? I No, not working the night shift •••••••••••••• Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 33 IA: IB: But you've kept all this stuff all these years. I think that's great. lot of stuff when the place started going, you know, saving things from the scrap. It's amazing to me how many people kept a Grinstern: Oh, I didn't realize that. IB: IA: IB: IA: IB: A lot of the, a lot of the people we've talked to, I'm drawing a blank on names right now but the man that, the two women that we interviewed Mabel McQueen and the other lady across the street, in the trailer court••• She had pictures, she had albums and albums filled with pictures. Well, the albums, yeah, and, well, the albums belonged to her boss and he let her borrow 'em so we could see 'em and he had 'em again at the summer dinner. That's right. I can't think of his name. Grinstern: There's someone else, a young guy around town here that, I think, a couple years ago is an antique buff or something, had quite a lot of old stuff there. anything but he had a table full of stuff there a couple years ago. I don't know what his name was or IB: We've been given a couple of names of men that either managed the clubhouse or something ••• Grinstern: Vern Haight? IB: Pardon me? Grinstern: Vivern Haight from Webberville. IB: IA: Yes. Oh, yeah, that's it, that's right. Grinstern: He had the best job in the shop. IB: Did he? Why's that? Grinstern: He really had nobody to account for. IA: He just did what he wanted to do? • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 34 Grinstern: He got paid for buying the liquor for these parties, whatever was left over, he had. IA: Oh, my. Grinstern: Whatever food was left over was his. IB: IA: Sounds like a pretty neat ••• This was after the War, right. He was doing this mostly in '60s? Grinstern: Well, yeah, all the time I was there, he was there. clubhouse before that. He was in the IB: Oh. It will be interesting to talk to him. Grinstern: He came and went as he pleased and no clock to punch. he punched a clock but ••• I suppose IB: • Grinstern: But he wasn't kept track of and he kind of was a free, kind a free wheel • Well, how would I put it? It's just like a guy that's head of a convention bureau or whatever. He sets up, well, maybe like the Civic Center here. The guy that runs that, all the fringes he gets out of the deal. IA: Right. Grinstern: No, Vern had it made. IB: That's interesting. Grinstern: But he had the same classification as I did probably, janitor or whatever. IB: IA: Classification, how, were they ••• Were they union classifications? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: IB: • Grinstern: IB: Yeah. Were they ranked like lA, 2A or something like that? No, no, like maybe a machine operator and a forklift operator, truck driver, whatever. Oh, I see. • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 35 IA: But a job description. Grinstern: No, Vern had it made down there. IA: Let me ask you this question. of times how you felt about the Reo and you didn't, you say it's nothing special but you do keep up with a lot of people that used to work there. You know, we've asked you a couple Grinstern: No. IA: No? Well, at least'you go to their reunions every once in a while. Grinstern: Yeah, well, most of the people are younger, they're still working. You know yourself, the reunion, how many young people were ther.e? IA: IB: IA: IB: Yeah, there quite a few even at our table. Yeah •.• That were maybe just starting in there toward the end, in '75, '76. Right, so it's not ••• I'm surprised how many of the older people are still, you know, involved in, with it, you know. We talked, did you know Hilda Smith in personnel? Grinstern: Sure, sure. IB: Did she hire you in or do your paperwork? Grinstern: No, she was, she was pretty well on her way out or just working part time when I hired in there, I think. IB: I see, she was getting older by then. Grinstern: But see, if you understand anything about farming, you've got to have another job to keep the other job going and I had one farm and I wanted to buy another one so I went to Reo to help pay for it. IA: Okay, so this was the way to help you •••••••••••••••• Grinstern: Sure. It wasn't my life's work or anything. IB: Farming was where your heart was, maybe. Grinstern: Yeah, I was, what about 42, I guess, when I hired in there, It was just to make some money to keep the farm going. • whatever. • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 36 IB: Sure. I know a lot of people like that worked ••• Grinstern: Everybody, everybody. IB: IA: IB: IA: Sure, people that would drive down from Portland -andClarksville and ••• Yeah, we went out to Milliken, that guy that we interviewed •••• Interviewed, yes. In Milliken. Grinstern: Who was that, Forest Gardner? IA: IB: No. No ••• Grinstern: Jim Vanburen. • IB: IA: IB: Not Chamberlain • Chamberlain, he was the time and motion study guy. Fuller ••• Fuller, that's right. IA: Fuller. Grinstern: I don't remember him. IA: Yeah, I don't even remember where he ••••••• Grinstern: 'Course, see, working nights all the time, I didn't really, 'course, like I say, the Lord blessed me with a knack for remembering names and faces and stuff like that ••• IA: But if they weren't there when you were there, you might not know 'em. Grinstern: Yeah, no, no. IB: IA: • Grinstern: Charlie Griffin is the other clubhouse name I have. Okay, and that's probably why you wanted night work, too, so that you could work days on the farm. That makes sense, too. Was your grandmother's name, the farm you were on, her last name was Hayes, too? No, that was on my wife's side. Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 37 IA: That's right. confused It's your mother's But, oh, I see, I'm sorry. 'cause there's a lot of different mother. • Yeah, I'm getting people involved here. Grinstern: Mother. IA: Right, and what would her, what was her last name? Grinstern: MAL Z 0 N. IA: MAL Z 0 N, Malzone? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: And that farm was out in Perry? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: Okay. Has that, has that farm been in the family for a long time? Grinstern: No. Grinstern: Really? IA: Oh, it hasn't? had farms but nobody has said exactly what you've 'cause we've interviewed Okay, other people who've said, that ••• • IA: yeah, that the job at Reo was the way to keep the farm. both, you know, when they talked about working in the shop and then going back and working on the farm which we were astounded how much work that all would be. to us 'cause we haven't really come across this before. But, so this is very interesting They did at Grinstern: No, I never realized how much the farm cost me till I retired. IB: Oh, is that right? Yeah, when your income's reduced. Grinstern: Not, you don't have pay the bills here. and you have a hell then you don't have any income. You got to keep this other job to Every year you think that's gonna be the year of a crop and the price ain't worth a darn and any crop and the price shoots up. IB: Farming is a very, boy, you must have to have an awful lot of faith. Grinstern: Oh, this year here is gonna ••• IB: And a strong back. Grinstern: button up a lot of 'em •. • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 38 IA: This past year 'cause it was such a bad growing season. Grinstern: Well, the corn never got, matured ••• IB: No, it's still standing in the fields. Grinstern: Well, it never matured. It's not ripe. IB: Because of all the rain and the cold. Grinstern: 'Course the price is $1.77. By the time they get it dried, it's, you get about 77 cents out of it. IB: Pay to grow it. Grinstern: It costs about two dollars and a half to raise a bushel of corn so how can you sell it for 77? And, 'course see, like when I went, I didn't believe in a huge debt. These young guys today are in debt a half million dollars. IA:• IB: Grinstern: With all the big pieces of expensive machinery. Yeah, a tractor costs $160,000. You use it one week of the year and you're paying interest on it for 51 weeks, no way you can make it. IB: I'm amazed just at the cost of seed and fertilizer and all the other things that you have to put on the fields. Grinstern: Yeah. now, after the divorce and stuff, I can't believe ••• 'Course, I never bought groceries till I got out on my own IB: How expensive things are. Grinstern: One grapefruit, 80 cents or whatever. IB: How about a box of cereal with that same stuff you grew on the farm, it cost 70 cents a bushel and the cereal prices keep shooting up. Grinstern: Three dollars something, yeah. Loaf of bread, three, four cents worth of wheat in a loaf of bread and it's selling for a $1.19, whatever. 18: • Grinstern: Or a dollar and a half • Yeah, I just can't believe it. I was trying to figure out something the other day. Well, like grapefruit or something, 80 Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 39 cents a piece and it figures out to about $50, $60 a bushel. Well, you know darn well them people down in Florida ain't gettin' no where near that. Somebody is along the line but ••• IA: IB: Grinstern: Well, everybody takes a little piece. Yeah, the packager, the ••• Yeah, but even at harvest time, say like the onion and carrots raised around here, Stockbridge, 40, 50 cents a pound or whatever. I can't believe it but I got to believe it because it's true but ••• IB: It's frightening. do it when they're raising families. In fact, I don't even know how young people now Grinstern: They're not gonna make it. IB: You can see why both people have to work and I'm tired of hearing criticism about women don't work, but they have to, besides the fact there may be personal satisfaction but they just about have to. Grinstern: Well, maybe, maybe my generation was wrong. We went without till we got the money to pay for it and the young people today buy $150,000 home with $1,000 down and as long as they make the payments, they can stay there. It's just like rent. IB: And they didn't have VISA then either and that's another ••••••• Grinstern: Yeah, well, if they lose it, they haven't lost anything. They go on welfare or ADC or whatever. They never buried nobody on top the ground yet. So, maybe my generation was wrong. IB: Well, because we came from the generation before that believed in hard work. Grinstern: But we made the young generation the way they are. IB: You know, you keep saying, I don't want my children to have to struggle ••• Grinstern: The way I did. IB: thus and so and I think everybody that finally made it said that, I don't want my kids to do it and now that's filtering down. Grinstern: Well, my folks would have given me stuff••• IA: If they could. • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 40 Grinstern: But it wasn't there. IA: 18: We've heard that from other people, too. and get ahead. And I think if you're hungary you're gonna get out and push yourself talk a little bit about Hill Diesel when you came here and what it was like and what you made and what kind of shop it was to work in, etc., etc. Speaking of getting ahead, I'd like to Grinstern: It was dirty. 18: You mean as far as greasy and dirt on the floor or ••• Grinstern: Yeah, everything was dirty. IA: Reo wasn't? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: As the Reo? • Grinstern: Oh, the Reo was dirty, too, yeah. 18: 'Cause I've heard the Reo was pretty dirty. Grinstern: Yeah. IA: 18: Grinstern: Toward the end •••••••••• 'Cause it was old and no money went back into upkeep. Getting back to, we was talking about women, everything into the factories. went to hell was during the War when the women went I think that's where IA: You do? How come? Grinstern: They left their family to home, a 14 year old girl, no way is she qualified to run a family. 18: IA: • Grinstern: Then when the War was over, they didn't want to give up those jobs. Oh, she was a teenage daughter who was left to take care of the ••• shifts and Yeah, mother and dad both working, there was nobody around home and the kids were on their own and the husband would say, we're not gonna buy this and the wife says, go to hell. I've got my own money. probably opposite Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 41 IS: in that and a lot of women didn't Well, I think there is something want to give up their job when the War was over and a lot of the men came back to the shops. My mother was a single mother trying to keep us together was terrified know, some of the men that came home that could get their jobs back, the women obviously would be supported I remember there was a lot of unrest during that period. strikes, too. a lot about that. and she afford, you but my mother wasn't. A lot of that she'd lose her job. She couldn't I remember hearing Grinstern: Of course, Hill Diesel was a lot like Reo. handmade. Most everything was IS: Was it? Grinstern: Yeah. IS: And you did what when you were ••• Grinstern: I was a tool crib operator. IS: Oh, that's right, you told me that. right in this very building. I forgot. And so you worked Grinstern: I was over in the other building over there. here was the shipping department in here. This here part in IS: Oh, this complex here. Grinstern: Yeah, but there had to be a building been torn down some time. in between here that must a IS: I think so because I've seen some of the early pictures. Grinstern: They went right next to Richert's the bridge here. Lumber Yard there, right down to IS: Richert's think? Lumber Yard was where Impression Five is now, do you Grinstern: No, I think Impressions Five is part of Hill Diesel. IS: Okay, okay, and then Richert's was further north. Grinstern: Yeah. IS: Where you pull in what used to be Mill Street, you pulled go there. in and • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 42 Grinstern: Yeah, well, it was down there right next to Sear's parking Richart's Lumber was in there. lot. IA: 18: Oh, okay. I think back hard enough, I think I can remember that. Grinstern: 'Course like I say, I haven't been back in here 30, 40 years ••••••••• 1n here either. 18: So this is a trip down memory lane today. building, itself extended to the river. not only was it two separate buildings You said that this but this building Grinstern: This was all one building. It was all ••• 18: Oh, all one building. Grinstern: It was all cobbled up all the way through here. 18: Oh, just one thing added to another. • Gr instern: So they must of, where you parked back in here, that must a been all tore out of there. 'course we lived out to Miller Road and we'd come up Cedar to Michigan morning off of Michigan Avenue but that only lasted a couple of days. and want to make a left turn here, we got down here one and they had big sign up, no left turn, on to Mill Street I can remember one time distinctly, 18: Because there was so much human cry about it? Grinstern: Well, you'd have to go down and make a U-turn somewhere Michigan here. That was some traffic engineer's ••• Avenue and come back and make a right here to get down on 18: Idea. Grinstern: Yeah, and of course, I don't know, can you drive underneath bridge now to get on to Kalamazoo Street? the 18: Ah, no. Grinstern: Well, see, we always used to, when we left here, we went underneath the bridge and ••• 18: And then you came up ••• • Grinstern: Kalamazoo and the Cedar. Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 43 IB: No, you can't do that and you said that this building west right to the banks of the river? extended Grinstern: Yeah, you could reach out and touch the water almost IA: So you don't come down to Lansing very much, huh? Grinstern: I never go uptown. You couldn't make me to go uptown. IA: 'Cause things have changed too much? Grinstern: Nothin' here. IA: Yeah, it's pretty dead, that's true. Grinstern: Nothin' here but crime. IB: moved out to the, I think Like a lot of city where everything's malls have a lot to do with there bein9 less and less •••••••••• Grinstern: Well, you go out to the mall and you might have to walk four blocks but you can drive right into a parking place. IB: Yeah, that's my husband's said, just doesn't understand ••• bugaboo, the parking down here and he Grinstern: But there's nothing uptown. IB: No, there isn't for one thing. Grinstern: LCC, they got the mall, the streets are closed, you can't get into 'em. IB: Well, it's open all the way down through there now. Grinstern: Is it now? IB: Yeah, you can drive ••••• Grinstern: You don't dare drive in the parking ramps without holding on to your back pocket. With a woman, it's even worse. IB: IA: IB: Especially at night. At night, yeah. If you have a night class or something into the ramp, you go with a group. and you come out of LCC • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 44 IA: Did you notice any changes in the Reo from the time that you were there, between '65 and '75? Nothing serious? Grinstern: No, I don't think so. IA: It was pretty much the same from the time that you went in to, no new ways of doing things or ••• Grinstern: Oh, they hired a guy in there, I forget what his name was now and they had a couple old, ancient elevators that carried stock up and down the three floors and they tore one out and put a line through there and, of course, that raised hell with the other elevator. That was bottled up all the time. IA: So they tried to modernize a little bit. Grinstern: Yeah, but ah, there wasn't no money for it. IA: So a lot of the old equipment and ways of doing things stayed the whole 10 years that you were there? Grinstern: Yeah • IA: How about turnover of, I know you were there at night so you probably didn't see too many ••• Grinstern: Oh, I don't think there was that much turnover in••• IA: In the last few years? Grinstern: No. IA: IB: IA: Grinstern: Okay. In the way of personality ••• Yeah, just in terms of who's working there and the kinds of people that were there. Well, 'course some of the guys, personnel, they tell me how great they were, how many guys that they saved their jobs and stuff but I was probably a person that came in and done my job and didn't get in any trouble or anything and they seemed to protect the person that really didn't care, who was in trouble all the time and I think, 'course I think it's that way in every place. IA: The union or, yeah ••• Grinstern: Well, union and personnel and, of course, the union went to work for 'em but ah, when I, I was talking to you about the repair • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 45 over 32 hours more than the next person, 'course they couldn't work one person in the came floor, classification they worked one person say 40 hours, he'd get 8 hours pay on a grievance and time after time, 'course they wanted these trucks right away and they couldn't work overtime $3,000 in a grievance. fool around trying to find the guy to so almost week after week they'd pay $2, or whatever see. If 18: Oh, because they had worked someone over the ••• Grinstern: Thirty-two hour •••••• 18: 32 hour. Grinstern: Yeah, but say like I work nights and the only way, that was the only reasons we got overtime shovel snow in the morning or whatever and it would put 'em out of the cushion so they'd have to pay us so then they'd bring us in to work, maybe we'd work Friday night till 1 o'clock had to get overtime, morning. we'd have to come back in 7 o'clock the next is because the day shift would maybe and then if we 18: They would figure that they'd make enough money on that truck that they could absorb that grievance fine. Grinstern: Yeah, ••••••••••••••••••••• or whatever, I don't know. 18: Kind of a strange way to do things, isn't it? Grinstern: Well, that was part of management. 18: I suppose it's like the Army where all these odd things happen. We talked to, I forget who it was, in charge of shipping during the War and he would say that the Army would call him and and he'd say, I sent say I need such and such a part immediately you crates of those two months ago. in a warehouse and we haven't got time to go get 'em so it would cost the government that much more to ship this new part out immediately. Well, they're parts Grinstern: Well, I think just like Hill Diesel and all these places during the War, it was all cost plus so they didn't care. They didn't It was all cost plus. care how much overtime that they worked. 18: 'Cause the government subsidized when you worked here at Hill Diesel when you hired in? ••••••••• Who did you work for Grinstern: Clifford Payne. 18: PAY N E? • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 46 Grinstern: Yeah. 18: And he was the supervisor? Grinstern: Yeah, he was over the tool room, too. IB: And was he a pretty nice guy to work for? Grinstern: The little things I didn't think of he did. Oh, peach of a guy. We had raffles going at the holiday time. day we'd raffle off $10. We'd raffle, 10 times a IS: Oh, really? Grinstern: Oh, that was, we had a lot of fun, good place to work. IB: It was? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: You seem to be more excited about Hill Diesel than Reo as a good place to work • Grinstern: Well, it was smaller. IB: Smaller so you knew people. Grinstern: Yeah. • IB: And did they have a night and a day shift, two shifts during the War? Grinstern: Well, they, during the War they had three. IB: IA: IB: Three shifts during the War. Wow. And I'm sorry, when did you go to work there? Grinstern: December of '41. IB: IA: IB: • Oh that's right, '41. What was I gonna say? I don't know. I'm still thinking those folks when Hill Diesel went down? you say? about Hill Diesel. What happened to some of It went down in '51 did Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 47 Grinstern: They were mostly all older people. IS: So they just ••• Grinstern: After the War, they just went right down, all the younger people got laid off again so they went back to their own original skeleton crew so they was, they were all old guys when I went back there in '51. IS: IA: So when this big, rattling bunch of buildings, there weren't very many people left to work after the War and contracts stopped. There were so many locally owned Lansing businesses that don't really exist anymore like Hill and Reo .•. Grinstern: Nobel ••• IS: Nobel, yeah. Grinstern: John Seam, Trainer ••• IS: IA: Yes, yes. There's so many. Grinstern: Lindberg Screw. IS: IA: That's another one, that's right. Yeah, and then just all, you know, over the years they've all vanished. Grinstern: Well, just like Dial soap and all these other, how many other ventures have they got into other than the soap business or whatever. working for them and they just bought out Greyhound Sus Line. The reason I say Dial soap, my daughter just started IS: That's incredible. Grinstern: Well, how many of these other countries, or companies have bought interest in something that you never ••• IS: Oh, certainly, like Pepsi. Grinstern: Yeah. IS: IA: K-Mart. But the ones you mentioned, they went down. weren't bought out by bigger companies. They didn't, they • • • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 48 Grinstern: Yeah, most of 'em went down. 18: IA: Some just plain went out of business. They just went under. Maybe the competition from those bigger companies got to be too great. Grinstern: Well, see just like Hill Diesel, Detroit Diesel and Cummings and all them, just had all the modern equipment. IA: Right, so these guys ••• Grinstern: They was lucky here if they got six or seven motors out a week, see. 18: Oh, at Hill Diesel? Grinstern: Yeah. 18: Under government contract, I wonder how many motors they put out? Grinstern: I have not idea but ••• 18: Production was really up though. Grinstern: Well, they had a lot more people working, a lot more people. 18: What kinds of things would those engines be used in 'cause I don't know much about engines, so, in fact, I know thing about 'em. I know if they, turn 'em on they should work but ••• Grinstern: Well, in trucks and auxiliary generators and stuff and ••• 18: Oh, okay, so wherever they'd need power away from the source they could •••• Grinstern: Yeah, yeah. 18: It's amazing. suppose somebody's making lots of 'em now. You'd think there'd be a lot of those, well, I Grinstern: Well, Detroit Diesel and Cummings and••• 18: They're still in business and they were in business then? Grinstern: Oh, sure, sure, sure. See, R.E. Olds, didn't he originally start the Hill Diesel? 18: I think he had an interest in it from his dad's machine, office machine shop where he got his start. Who would the •••••••••••• Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 49 IA: IB: to, somebody, at any rate, there were a lot of stationary engines being built at one time. Well, I filled up my sheet. I guess I can't think of anything else either. just touch base one more time on the end of Hill Diesel. saying that, not only did they lose your government contracts but there was mismanagement at the top? I guess I want to You're Grinstern: Well, this guy from Massachusetts, I don't know what town it was now but he had a little industrial park there, see ••• IB: In Massachusetts? Grinstern: Yeah, and of course, he ventured out and bought Hill Diesel out •.• IB: Much like Cappart bought Reo. Grinstern: Yeah. IB: There's quite a similarity there. Grinstern: Well, although I think this guy and I forget what his name is now, that was 50, 40 years back but he took the original parts back to Boston in a little shop there and Bill Wheelan, he was superintendent of everything, he had spare parts and stuff. He had a house over, the last house remain in the Olds parking lot. Well, he had four, five of the guys out of the tool room, they'd go down there and work nights in the basement. He had mills and lathes and drills and stuff down in his basement and ••• IB: And they were doing, making ••• Grinstern: the spare parts. Of course, he worked right on the inside. He knew what spare parts was gonna be needed and instead of doin' 'em here at Hill Diesel, he done them on his, at his own home. IA: IB: Oh, my goodness. And then he would sell 'em back to Hill Diesel or? Grinstern: Yeah. IA: IB: That's not a way to run a company either. That's pretty tricky. Grinstern: Well, it's just like everything, politics, you know. • • • • • • Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 50 IB: So the man then that owned Hill Diesel owned it right up to the end? (end side 1) Grinstern: ••••••• one time and this Mr. Hill which the engine was named after, he was there for a long time. IB: Yeah, I think R.E. Olds was a backer. Grinstern: Yeah, I think so • IB: ••••••••• backer, look that up. •••••••••• help him get started. I'd have to Grinstern: See, in '42, they organized the union in there, too. strike there in 1942 at Hill Diesel. I went on What kind of a problem was that, getting the union IB: Oh, you did? in? Grinstern: Wages ••• IB: Was wages? Grinstern: Yeah, they never made much at Hill. ,IB: Do you remember what you made and hour? Grinstern: In 1951, I made $1.60. IB: And you got hospitalization and ••• Grinstern: No. IB: That was it, no benefits, just, that was it. Grinstern: No, there was no benefits back in them days. IB: When you worked at Reo, do you remember what you were making? Grinstern: Made $2.05, I think. IB: Toward the end, that was like top wage? Grinstern: Yeah. IB: But you had the option of getting overtime there sometimes? Grinstern: Well, our classification work overtime never gave you no time to clean it up. and everything didn't get much but maybe the plant would and make twice as much dirt but they Marvin Grinstern 12/3/93 Page 51 IB: IA: Oh, that's quite a ••••••••• Yeah. Grinstern: 'Course, you know, when a plant lays off, the janitor the first one to go. is always IB: Oh, is that right? • Grinstern: IB: Sure, sure. Engler's that get laid off first. They don't take off the top unless, it's like doing now but it's usually the low guys on the totem pole Sure, sure and people with low seniority included, and ••• not just sweeping but did you have to clean engines and whatnot. Your job Grinstern: No, no, no. No, it was just the offices. IB: Oh, the offices, okay. the shop, having to ••• I pictured you out on the production in Grinstern: No, I, oh, for a couple times there they needed a power trucker to haul the trash wagons and stuff around and I'd do that and then when they'd start to layoff again, I'd get bumped back on to janitor again. • IB: When I worked in a shop, we had to do our own, I think I'll just turn •