• • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 1 IB: IA: This is January Aves. new year, 1993. This is January 4th, Shirley Bradley and Lisa Fine interviewing otto 4th and it's 10 p.m., 10 a.m. and this is the Okay, Mr. Aves, you told us out in the showroom there that you were born here in Lansing? Aves: Yup. IA: Okay. Aves: In 1926. IA: Okay, and were your parents born here as well or in the United States? Aves: Yeah, in the United States. IA: They're from the United States, okay. Aves: Yeah, they're from Sunfield, Mulligen area. IA: Okay, so they're farmers? from sort of the outlying areas of Lansing. Were they Aves: Urn, no, well, yeah, we're all farmers was born and raised on a farm. 'cause we were all on a farm. I IA: Okay. Aves: And my mother was born in Lake Odessa on a farm. IA: So you were born on a farm in Lansing? Aves: I was. IA: Yeah, a farm in Lansing. know, downtown ••• When I think of Lansing, I just think of, you Aves: I'm probably, probably 500 yards from where I was born. IB: In •••••••••••• IA: And it was a farm. Wow. So where was that? Aves: On West Saginaw. IA: Okay • Aves: Do you know where All Star Bowling Alley is? otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 2 IS: Yes, I do. Aves: Right across from that. IS: Oh, was that, were do you live? I go by there a lot. We go back and forth to Grand Ledge a lot. Goodness sake. Well, next time I go by, I'll toot the horn. Aves: It's a red brick house and it's on the so~th side of the road right across from ••••••••• Hilton, right across there and then the first house west of that was my mother and dad's house and that's where I was born. IS: Oh, isn't that interesting. Well, how many people in this day and age are still near, even near where they were born. IA: I sure am not. IS: No, you're not. IA: So the family was all from the area, little towns outside of Lansing and they were all farmers for the most part. Aves: Immediate family. IA: Immediate family, okay. How far back do they go around here? Aves: Go, how far back? IA: Yeah, like your grandparents, great grandparents ••• Aves: Grandparents, my grandparents, one of 'em was from Lake Odessa and the other one was from Portland. IA: Oh, really, so you go far back in this area. Aves: Yeah, but there's also people out in Kansas •••••••••••• my brother's wife just did a ••• IA: Oh, a genealogy? Aves: went to England and checked that and they go to Kansas and all that stuff so she just came out with a book of the whole family. IS: Oh, how wonderful. IA: So you trace back to England? You can trace some of your family back to England? Oh, that's wonderful, terrific. IS: Exciting. • • • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 3 Aves: Yes, her goal in life was ••••••••••••••••••••••• IB: Oh, that's wonderful though. We're trying to do that right now, too, with my husband's family. Aves: She should of done it 10 years ago when, like my mother and father were alive •• IA: Were still alive, yeah. IB: Could of given more information. Better late than never though. IA: When did the first, was it Aves that you're talking about, the Aves family? Aves: Yes. IA: When did they first come over from England, do you know? Aves: I'd have to look at the book. IA: But it was a long, it was a while ago? Aves: Oh, yeah, ••••• 1800s. IA: In the 1800s, alright, great. And so you went to school in Lansing? Aves: Ah, yes. IA: Did you go through high school? Aves: Well, I went to a small one room school house which is on the corner of Canal and Saginaw, fire department, there's a fire department there and the schoolhouse used to be there. IB: Sure, right where the Delta Fire Department is? Aves: Yeah. IA: I know where that is, yeah. IB: Oh, isn't that interesting. IA: It was a one 'room school house there? Aves: My mother was the school director and I was a janitor there. IA: Your mother was a school director at the one room school house? Aves: Urn, hum. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 4 IA: Interesting. Aves: And I used to go down there like on Sunday night and build a fire and clean the toilets, they have chemical toilets that you put water and stuff in. Well, when I first started doin' it, they had 'em outside •••• IS: How old were you when you did that? Aves: Hum? IS: How old were you when you went ••• Aves: When I was a janitor? IS: Ah, huh. Aves: Nine, 10. IB: Nine and 10. IA: And you went to school there, too? Aves: Yeah, till the 8th grade and then I went, after that I came into •••••••• Lansing, okay. IB: It's a ••••••••••• Center now. Aves: And I went to Central. IB: When did you graduate from Central? Aves: It was in 1942, '43 and then Central changed to Lansing Catholic. IA: Right, that's a beautiful old building. Aves: And I graduated, I was also going to sexton because I was in a trade class. IS: Oh, sure. Aves: So I say I graduated from Central, Lansing Catholic ••• IA: And Sexton. Aves: And Sexton which is true. IS: Sure. IA: What kind of technical program was it at Sexton that you went to? • • • • Otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 5 Aves: I was taking drafting. IA: Drafting. That was like a vocational program? Aves: Vocational. IA: Yeah. after you graduated from sexton? Did you get any other schooling besides that, you got, besides Aves: Ah, no, I went right to work. IA: That was it, then you went right into ••• Aves: ••••••• I was going to go as a draftsman and I found out they didn't make any money. IB: Oh, is that right? Oh. Aves: So I started out in 1944, I hired out at Reo as a sweeper. 1944 as a sweeper at Reo. And you were just, what, 18 or 19? IA: • IB: Aves: Yeah, 18. IB: 18. IA: You didn't go into the War, you weren't in the Army or the service at that time? IB: In the service, he wasn't old enough probably. Aves: No, I was but I had, my leg was badly burned when I was about seven years old. IA: Didn't work out. Aves: I wanted to go but I was afraid, they were afraid because it has a lot of scar tissue on it that they wouldn't be able to, you know ••• IB: That you might be in their hospital more than you'd be out in the field. Aves: Yeah, yes, which I don't think was true but ••• IB: How did you happen to burn it? • Aves: Well, ah, we had a dog which was very, pet dog, back in those days you had a lot of woodchucks around and the dog had been digging up a otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 6 back in the field and he chewed the dog up pretty bad but he •••••••• stove settin' outdoors that we used to burn our woodchuck finally ended up killing the woodchuck. warming, papers and stuff in like that, so I put the woodchuck the gasoline it out and poured it on there. it on the side and I had coveralls they were coveralls that button up in front, you know, just one piece and I was saturated with gasoline And, the old farm matches, Actually, out of my father's car in my sister's So we had an old ground play cups, carried and away it went. in and I siphoned I scratched on. IB: And you couldn't get that coverall off quick enough probably. Aves: Well, no you couldn't and I started running towards a bad house and my older brother tripped me and rolled me over and he put part of it out and then my father was coming up with a team of horses he was driving and the grabbed me and dumped me •••••••••••• the house which is IB: Probably saving your life, both of those actions. Aves: Oh, yeah, that's true and ah, at one time, well, that, my heel was right up against my hip and they were talking in my legs to straighten that. foot on ground and step my toe on the ground So in about a year's time, I got to the point where I could my the leg out and my mother wouldn't about cutting the cords •••••• great. let them do IB: Wow. IA: Mr. Aves, I'm gonna shut the door. IB: Why don't we move ••• IA: That's okay. from out there. There we go. It's just that there's a lot of background noise coming IB: I think I'll move this chair, too, out of the way. IA: So you started as a sweeper after you'd gotten all this training a draftsman? to be Aves: True. IA: At the Reo. I guess I have to ask you why. Aves: I took any job that I could get into. IA: Okay, on the ground floor, literally. Aves: Yeah, I worked from the bottom up. Of course, •••••••••••••••• IA: And did it matter that it was Reo? • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 7 Aves: Yes, my father worked there. IA: Your father worked there. Aves: Mother worked there. IB: Your father and your brother? IA: His mother. Aves: Mother. IB: Mother, oh. What did they both do? Aves: Oh, my father worked in engineering department fuses. and my mother worked at rockets, department, mechanic in engineering doing rockets and bomb IB: Oh, for the Navy department then. IA: Oh, she was a World War II worker. • Aves: And then after that, she worked in lawn mower. IB: She did? IA: So it was a Reo family so it was natural for you to start there. Aves: Right, my grandfather brothers ••• worked ~n •••••••• department and I had IA: Your grandfather must of started right almost from the beginning. IB: That's what I was wondering. When, how long did he work there? Aves: I really don't know whether he went there first or not. blacksmith shop in Sunfield and so he ••• He had a IA: Oh, he started as a blacksmith. Oh, that's interesting. Aves: And my father worked in the blacksmith and worked in heat treating department came after. shop, also, and he came to Reo there and I think my grandfather IA: • Aves: Oh, I see, after your father did, too. were working would work at home on the farm and work in the Reo? And all this time that they at Reo did they still live on farms, too, so that they Well, my father did but my grandfather didn't. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 8 IA: He didn't. IB: Because he had ..had the shop. IA: He had a blacksmith whole family thing and you started on the ground floor. shop, right. So you started in Reo because of the IB: Do you remember how much you made when you started out? Aves: Sixty-five cents an hour. IB: And were you able to get overtime or anything like that? Aves: Ah, not the sweeping, no. IB: Okay, I just wondered. IA: Did you sweep a department, an area? Aves: Yeah. IA: Which one? Aves: Repair floor. IA: In the repair sweeping? floor, okay. How long did you stay there, doing the Aves: About three months. IA: Okay, and then you moved up. do next? Then you started moving up. What did you Aves: I drove trucks off the assembly line out into the parking lot. IB: Was that an increase in pay as you went up ••• Aves: Oh, yeah. IB: What were you making during Aves: I don't know. I can't tell you now but I've got the paycheck stubs. IB: IA: Oh, you have? You saved those? Isn't that interesting. So that was the next thing and you just, that was just making they could go from point A to point B at that point, right? sure that Aves: ••••••••••••••• bring 'em in, they come off assembly start them up and you had to put 'em somewhere so you either drive line and then you 'em • • • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 9 'em out in the parking lot or you drive into a stall where a mechanic you drive they call a radio room. and the radio room is, you drive the truck in there and they run a test on it, the engine and stuff to see that the electrical giving off signals that the enemy can pick up, see. 'em around to what trucks has to work on them or you do okay, then And we mostly were building system is not military IB: Oh, for goodness sake. IA: Oh, oh, that's interesting. IB: That is interesting. Aves: IB: So, yeah, I was driving trucks to, off assembly take 'em to wherever truck. they were and then walk back and pick up another line, take 'em out and Where was the radio room located? where you drove off the end of the assembly different location entirely? Some place right on, right near line or was it over in a Aves: Yeah, it was probably 50 yards, 60 yards away from the assembly line. IB: Oh, so it was still in the Baker Street, Washington area? Aves: Right. The repair floor was in that area and also the radio room. IB: Aves: And was, and then, they were ready to be loaded on boxcars or flatcars there, didn't and shipped out. The railroad it? used to go right through or whatever Yes. road tests. I did that, too. No, but they had to go out on a road test, too. We had to do IA: So the next thing was driving and then, how long did you stay with that? Aves: Oh, it was probably six months, something like that. IA: And then you moved on to something else. Aves: Then worked on the assembly line. IA: Oh, then you were on the assembly line. Aves: Um, hum. IA: Okay, so by that, so that was like 1945 that you started assembly And where did you work on the line? line. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 10 Aves: Final, on final assembly. mechanic, to get to be able to start it. I graduated from driving the trucks to being IS: Oh, that was your job on the final? Aves: Urn, hum. IA: To get it started. IS: Make sure that the engine would run. Aves: Sure, because they'd have gas lines, maybe somebody didn't have time to tighten up and it had a leak or quality or something like that. IA: Did you have to identify at that point what was the problem? Aves: Yes. IA: Okay, so that was, you ••••• Aves: And repair it. IS: And repair it. IA: Oh, you had to repair it, too? Aves: Yeah. IA: So this is a very serious and important job. Aves: Yeah. IA: Yeah. Aves: And then we, trying to think what, I lost it ••• IA: Oh, okay. IS: Was there a production quota, too, for that? Aves: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. 40 trucks a day. At one point close to 100. At one time we were running about IA: Were these alL government trucks? Aves: Yes. IA: Okay, so that was, the line was just putting out those government trucks? • • '. • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 11 Aves: No, not necessarily was a real pain. because •••••••••••••••••• We had three different military commercial trucks vehicle which •••••••••••• IB: Three different models? Aves: Three different models. IA: And then every once in a while there'd be this clunker coming through, right? Aves: I didn't think, I ever saw. IB: What's that? I didn't so. I thought that was the beautifulest thing Aves: this olive drab and all of a sudden you either saw a green ••••••••• one or a red truck because that was the two basic colors that Reo put out. IB: Oh, really, green and red? Aves: Um, hum, green and red • IB: That's interesting. IA: So it was a nice change to see a •••••• coming down? Aves: Oh, yes. IB: And were they different truck be more heavy duty? mechanically, too. I mean, would the military Aves: Yes, it would be. drive and the commercial You're talking about, military truck is 6-wheel vehicle was only two-wheel. IB: Oh, okay. Oh, sure. IA: Was there anything anything don't talk about this or don't talk about that or anything? for what you did with those trucks? you know, in terms of military sensitive, No? They didn't say, secrets or Aves: Not at that IA: Not at that point, okay. Aves: Well, they had designated •••••••••• the fuse to bombs and •••••• fuse and rocket department, were not suppose to go into • orders you couldn't go into. You'd have, you IA: That's where your mom, that's where your mom worked? • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 12 Aves: Urn, hum. IA: Yeah. Aves: And later on, I ended up ••••••••••••• so I could really IA: And did you work with a group of guys that did basically you did? the same thing Aves: There were three of us. IA: There were three people who did this job on final assembly, okay. IB: And this was, day shift, did they still have the three shifts when you were at this point? Aves: No, they only had two. IB: The two shifts at this point. it wasn't. The War was over basically so, well, no Aves: Well, no, no, because •• IA: No, '45 ••• Aves: in fact, when I first started there, they only had one shift and then they ended up putting two shifts on. IB: They never did go to three? Aves: Never did go to three. IB: Okay, graveyard shift they used to call that third one. Aves: the same because a lot of percentage Well, it was basically people wouldn't ••••••• expected to work eight hours a day and you might end up working a double shift so you could work 16. You go horne and get some rest and corne back here to work the next morning_ show up in the night, the afternoon shift so you might of the IB: Oh, you must of felt like you lived there on those occasions. Aves: Well, this gets back to the other thing at that time, too. 'cause I was running the farm IA: Oh, you were? Aves: •••••• farm. • • • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 13 IB: So you were trying to squeeze all that in and the crops aren't gonna wait, are they, sometimes? Aves: Yeah, that's right. I've lost a lot of crops ••• IB: 'Cause you couldn't get 'em in? Aves: Yeah, my alliance was to Reo first. supporting me •••••••••••• come to my crops ••••••••••••••••••••••• regardless. War effort and everything Those were the people who were So if I 'cause I had to go to work else. IA: What'd you grow? Aves: Corn, beans, wheat. IB: Grains mostly. IA: Basic stuff. Did you have livestock, too? Aves: At one time while I was still. home, we had about seven or eight head of cattle and horses and we did our farming on horses. IA: Aves: That must of been, you know, just thinking, Oh, you said your dad drove, your drove up on the, with the horses, yeah. city so this is a little strange to me but to go from a factory in the day to a farm, it seems like a real contrast go from one extreme to another almost. in your life, you know, to I grew up in a big It really was because when I started out, I was still' walking single plow to plow. the end and you'd have to let 'em rest and then turn around and come back. ground which was dragging came up and stuff, we cultivated We had what you call fitting the and all that stuff and then before the corn it with horses and stuff like that. You did all the cultivating. We had the team of horses. Then you'd go down to behind a IA: Um, hum, and then turn around and go ahead and make trucks, right? Aves: Yeah. IB: Aves: .......................... I worked, yeah, I worked on a thrashing started working bind up the straw and, you know, wheat and throw it in the thresher, the thrashing at Reo and I used to go out and stack hay, binders machine one summer before I machine. to IB: That's hard work, too, isn't it? Aves: Hard work, no, it's a lot of fun. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 14 IB: Oh, is it really? I'm thinking of all day long. Aves: Oh, well, yeah, but it's your job and, you know, you do it ••• IB: Well, true. IA: 'You're outside ••• IB: And your strong then when you're young. Aves: The hard thing that I really got into, that I loved that too, was carrying it in. the grain, well, machine to the grainery, used to have these big two bushel sacks and that's your shoulder stream of people, guys doing that, maybe five, four, five guys. and you carry it to and dump it and it was just a steady dumping 120 pounds put up on We IB: And probably you are and •••••••••• all that •••••••••••••• kiddin' each other about how, I'm better, I'm faster than Aves: Not towards the end of the day. IB: No. Aves: 'Cause I was what, 155 pounds and just solid muscle loved that kind of work, any hard work. and just, I just IA: So let's get back to the final assembly. other guys, it was a group of three? You worked with three, two Aves: Urn, hum. IA: Did you have a supervisor under, I guess is what I'm asking. or did you all, or did you, who'd you work Aves: Yeah, I'm not trying to say, I don't remember. IA: You don't remember. But you had somebody that you had to answer to? Aves: Well, yeah, the fellows name •••• IB: Inspectors maybe or ••• Aves: Roy Archer, at the time and •••• I guess, is, was the fellows name ••••••••• assembly line IA: Okay, so whoever was head of the whole assembly person you answered to? line process was the Aves: Urn, hum. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 15 IA: Okay, was it a good ••• Aves: And it had group leaders like, but the group leaders basically did was fill in while somebody was off sick or all they IA: Right, so to pick up the slack if somebody was out? Aves: Yes. . . IA: So you had to know what you were doing in a lot of different do that job? places to Aves: I could, at one time, they got up to six people went the line and I was one of the six and I could do any Oh, yeah. whole assembly operation 'em up, painting, anything you wanted me to do, I could, I can build a whole truck myself. from starting or whatever, air p~p~ng, IA: There aren't many people who can say that today, I imagine. 18: • Aves: No, because you learn this one little boring job and you do that eight hours a day or whatever, don't see any part of, your job might have been a little more 'cause you got to see the final product. satisfying week in week out, year in year out and you (whispering) 18: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's job satisfaction •••• Aves: Any time you're learning, philosophy anything, change jobs. was, if you get to a point where you're not learning any time you're learning that's fine so my 18: That's interesting. Aves: And I did. IA: Was this a good group to work with? there that you worked with on the line? Did you enjoy the group of people Aves: Um, hum, as long as they do their job. IA: Right, okay, and you didn't have to pick up the slack for them? Aves: Sometimes but I just didn't like sloppy work that's all. IA: Um, hum, so for the most part, were they good workers? • Aves: Yes, very good. lines. You'd be surprised how many women are on assembly otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 16 IA: Even then? IB: Is that right? Aves: Oh, yeah. IA: Was that 'cause of the War or just••• Aves: 'Cause of the War. IA: 'Cause of the War, ah, huh, and they were okay, too, and you don't have to say anything, you don't have to change your answer 'cause of us. Aves: I'm not, I'm not. IA: Okay. They were good? Aves: Yes. IB: You don't remember any pressures on 'em because they were women working there or any problems that they encountered? Aves: No. IB: Of course, during the War, everybody was united in this effort so•.• Aves: The only problems that I ever heard of concerning women was this fellow, he used to chew tobacco and spit••• IB: And they didn't like it. IA: I understand that. Aves: He would spit on the floor and they finally left with him a box of sawdust. So that cleared that problem. IB: That solved that problem. women who still wanted to wear their rings and jewelry and running machines and he had problems getting them to realize they can't wear this new diamond ring 'cause they'd get their hand caught and that caused some problems for a while. I don't blame them. My dad talked about Aves: They taped a lot of 'em. IB: Did they? IA: Oh, they taped, oh, that's interesting. Aves: A lot of assembly line and stuff like that, they wore gloves anyway. • • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 17 18: And they had protection machines, those hats with the net at the back. to keep the hair back out of the way of the IA: Did they stay on after the War, some of these women? Aves: Some of the women, not very many. IA: Right, ••••••••••••• kind of like that. Aves: The electrical, they kept the women up there for that and, ••••• wiring, that. if they did the electrical wiring and stuff like that, things like 18: Well, maybe their smaller hands or ••• Aves: Lawn mowers,,"yeah, because women are a lot faster with their hands then work and things like that. men are. And doing tactical Let's face it. 18: I know a lot of 'em were in the lawn mower department was there . because my mother IA: So how long did you last at this job? Aves: That job, probably, like that. I don't know, probably three months or something IA: Oh, is that all, three months on this one. And then? Aves: 8ack farther on assembly line. IA: Oh, still on the assembly line. Aves: Well, I spent 15 years, I think, 14 years on assembly line. IB: In different places on the line? Aves: Yeah, working my place way back towards the end of it. 18: Towards the beginning of the process? Aves: Right. IB: What did you like the best on the assembly maybe you like them all. line, which position? Or Aves: IB: • Yeah, I probably that. I was a test driver • was more interested in test driving and things like When, was this also while you were on assembly driving or was that before you started on the assembly? line, you were test Otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 18 Aves: and they had, no, they At one time, it was after the War and everything I still had, no they still had, were building military worked on what they call rolls which was on the end of assembly line and they were big, large rollers and you'd drive the trucks on those and you chain down to that so it wouldn't the gears and stuff like that and get it up to 35 or 40 miles an hour and then you set there and let it run. You were in the truck checking all the gauges and all that kind of stuff and you'd let it run for probably sure everything you're doing this and I kind a liked that on assembly something was alright and you're writing like that, check it out to make go and you shift through all all the time while 10 or 15 minutes, line the best. vehicles. IA: You had a list of things you had to check for each vehicle that they were in working order? to make sure Aves: Well, yeah, they had a worksheet. IA: A worksheet, yeah. Aves: And I've had a lot of pride in doing that because you knew that that's either going to go to the repair station or it's gonna go right out into the parking right next door, lot for delivery. ••••••••••••••••• The shipping department 'em up ••••••••••••• which was and boxed IA: And you're the one that made that decision? Aves: Yes. IB: Aves: IB: Aves: if in the tearing down and the boxing up so they could be I wonder shipped out if that ever caused any problems, work once they reassembled they would tear down easily? them wherever that the trucks didn't or were they so well made that Only in one instance that I know of and I'm trying to think of the name of the country that when they got the boxes with the vehicles they were, they were road tested and everything went into the boxes but they did run into an assembly got 'em over to where they was gonna go. in 'em, else before they ever problem when they I was wondering how to put these things together? about that. Would somebody in a foreign country know They're up doing that. suppose to have sent somebody along. In fact, I almost ended IA: In some foreign country? Aves: Um, hum, but we found out what they were doing is, they didn't have any docks or anything 'em in and they were just ••••••••••••••••• and with a big broom, they were They didn't have any buildings to build else. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 19 the big boxes containing knocking camels come along and were hookin' on to 'em and pullin' they'd get 'em out so far away and all of a sudden they'd take the boxes apart and assemble all the trucks out on deserts 'em with sand and everything else •••••••••• 'em out and and IB: That's what I was kind of thinking when you said they dumped all this sand going in the parts and stuff. desert, 'em in the Aves: Oh, yeah, yeah. IB: I wonder how effective that was. Aves: So they had problems on that. IA: Yeah, I can imagine. IB: It's amazing. Aves: • IA: IB: Aves: And, I'll think of the name of the place that it was. I would go over there and get something to do with assembly set up. line • They asked me if So, that has nothing No. No, but it is interesting. about? How many pieces did they break a truck down into? Box 'em up, how big a box are we talking Well, see, they could put a whole truck in a box that was twice the size of this room. here, ••••••••••••••• This dimension IA: And they probably up. Aves: Oh, yeah. put the, you know, they would use cranes to pick that IA: and put it on the ships and things. IB: The chassis would be one part, I suppose. apart would they? They wouldn't take that Aves: They took everything apart. IB: Isn't that amazing. you have to take it all apart. You worked so hard to put it all together and then Well, they take the axles off and everything else because that would ••• Make it that much wider. Aves: • IB: • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 20 Aves: Yeah, and actually the boxes were probably not the full width of what this is, just enough to put the width of the cab which was the largest part and they would take the axles and set 'em in racks and stuff in there, in the cab, would fit into a certain place and the chassis would set in a certain place. IA: Now they had to do this for the trade regulations? Aves: Yeah. IA: For other foreign countries? They wouldn't accept the trucks unless some of their local worker were able to ••• Aves: And they were loaded in the boxcars, too, so My older brother worked in the export •••••••••• IB: Oh, he did? Aves: In the shop. IA: Is that, what department? Is that •••••••? Aves: Urn, hum. • IA: We have to get ahold of him. We have to talk to him, too. Aves: He's in Florida. IA: Oh, alright. We'll have to wait till he gets back. IB: IA: Oh, is he the one that called us? Oh, yes, okay. We haven't been doing this since before the holidays and I have to reprogram my mind in thinking about the folks we've talked to. Was there, you were on the assembly line so for 15 years, you said, from like around '45 to '60. Aves: r 45, '46 •••••••••••••••• IA: We talked to a guy who did time and motion stuff for Reo. Aves: Time what? IA: Time and motion studies. IB: Time and motion studies, efficiency expert type of thing. IA: Right, efficiency. Aves: TLme study. • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 21 IA: Time study. Aves: watch and •••••••• IA: Right. Did they do that stuff for you, to you? Aves: Yeah. IA: Was there any change in that time in terms of the pace of the work that had to be done? Aves: Well, when I first started in with 'em, it was piece work, all piece work. IA: Right, that's right. That changed in '46, that's right. Aves: Right and then they went to hourly work later on. IA: Right. There was a strike 'cause of that, wasn't there? Aves: • IA: IS: Aves: What? Wasn't there a strike 'cause of that? Oh, we had lots of strikes. There were a lot of strikes weren't there, right after the War? did that affect your work? like the steel strike or the coal strike and the railroad Were you off from work a lot during these, strike? How Aves: Really I wasn't because when, basically I was a field servicing mechanic and a lot of other things. when they had the strikes, see, IS: So they kind of needed you some place there. Aves: So they were gonna send me out on the road. IA: •••••••••• they send you out, right? Aves: Yeah and, but you haven't got union approval to do it, see, so I would be out on the road fixing trucks or something like that and when I got back into town, if I got back into town, then I had to picket duty, yes. Sut ••• IS: Picket duty, for the strikes? • Aves: Urn, hum, and one time, when I was in the bus department busses, if they didn't get it done then they would have lost their contract. inner city busses, they took me in to finish up busses because building otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 22 IB: So they were behind schedule or something ••• Aves: Behind deliveries, yeah. IA: I can't remember whether I read this somewhere that the switch from the piece work to the hourly wage was a, as a result of a strike, a specific strike, that was a wildcat. wildcat or somebody strike? Was that a else told us Aves: Yeah. IB: How long was that, time duration are we speaking about? IA: I haven't heard very much about it. could tell us a little bit about it. That's why I was hoping Mr. Aves Aves: A wildcat strike. IA: Yeah. they were speeding people up or ••• So some of the guys just were fed up with piece? Was it because Aves: line, you really •••••••••••••••• piece work was a, was a thing, you but they also had lines in there where these people were making No, I don't think they had as much ••••••••• people and stuff like that but •••••••••••••••••••••••••• worked on assembly these little subassembly all the money because they allotted worked on •••••••• piping ••••••••••••••• you got so much a piece for doing it. what the time study guy, you'd slow down when the time study man came. So if you really worked, you could have the money that you're allowed to make by 2 o'clock in the afternoon afternoon •••••••••••••• You could do a lot more than that you could do anything that you wanted. so we had two hours in the so much ••••••••.••••• air, brakes like I IA: And so a lot of people could make more money by continuing extra hours. to work the Aves: Yes, but you didn't dare turn it in because turned it in then the •••• ••••••• went down and IA: The time study guy would be there. Aves: time study guy would be there. IB: And he'd up your production. Aves: Yeah. IA: Was there ••••••• , do you think? Aves: They ••••••••••• time study. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 23 IA: Oh, he worked with ••••••••• , too? Aves: IA: So, they were nice guys. Yeah. like that but you could always slow down just enough so that you could, ••••••••••• studies. even after piece work went out, there was still time A lot of people hated 'em and stuff Right, that's right. much you could do in a certain eight hour day or whatever. 'cause they wanted to set quotas for how Right, IB: Or make your job efficient, less wasted motion. Aves: Well ••• IB: Supposedly. Aves: IA: • You take the laziest person there is in the whole place and you put him on a job and he's gonna find a shortcut to do on the job. to do is be smart enough to put him and watch and see what he does 'cause he's gonna •••••••• the easiest way it can be done. All you got But so, there were some members didn't like the difference people couldn't make a lot with the piece, was that it, and that was the problem problems? of the line, some of the workers that that some people could make a lot and some for why they went on the wildcat, one of their basic Aves: That was one of the basic problems, yeah. IA: So it wasn't equal. equally. People couldn't take advantage of the system Aves: Right. everybody So the wildcat strike ended up that turned around to be had an hourly wage. Piece work ended. IB: Was that in '46? IA: Yeah. IB: How long was, what was the time, what was the duration Was it just a short time, a week or two weeks, do you think? of the strike? Aves: I would say it was probably about a month, somethin' like that. IA: Oh, it was a month. IB: Okay • IA: Did you participate in that? • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 24 Aves: Yes, I did. IA: You did, in the wildcat. 18: You were union, weren't you? Aves: Pardon? 18: Were you union, you were union so you had to do your picket duty and whatnot. Aves: Yeah, we had a closed shop and that was another thing, too, it was a closed shop because if we're ••••••••••• see somebody that's gettin' all the benefits and stuff••• IA: Without work ••••••••, yeah, paying your dues. behind, it was a wildcat, the union didn't call it. The workers just walked out, right? Maybe •••••••••••••• for it, right? But the union wasn't 18: Oh, you're saying that maybe, maybe the union inspired this, you're saying? Aves: I don't say as they inspired it but they knew about it. IA: Right, and they weren't saying no but they weren't saying yes. Aves: •••••••••••••• walk off their job••• IA: Without some support. Aves: Right. 18: Without knowing that they wouldn't ••• Aves: A little consolation•••• IA: Alright. Well, that's good to know. 18: They kind a knew the union would back 'em up and keep their jobs for 'em? Aves: Yes. IA: Aves: We've heard both, people in favor of the piece and against it, in favor of the hourly ••••••••••, both sides of the story. What did, did you think, did you think it was an improvement to change to hourly or, what was your ••• .............. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 25 IA: You obviously time? went out on strike so you wanted to change it at the Aves: Well, it just, it just, not really because I was •••••••••••••• IA: You were? But you went out because the rest of the guys went out? Aves: IB: ............. And if you're union, you pretty well do ••• IA: Well, it's a closed shop, right. I mean ••• Aves: .................. IB: Gonna do, I see. IA: Yeah. Did it hurt you in terms of how much you made? Aves: I lost four weeks pay ••• IA: • Aves: No, I don't, besides the strike. from piece to hourly? I mean, in the long run to switch I think any strike hurts anyone, everyone. •••••••••••••••••••••••• pushing didn't make more money. you to put more production the only thing that hurt you is they kept out and more production out and you No, because I can still IA: Right. too, that if I work hard, I know I can make the money. That's a complaint we've heard from some of the other people, Aves: You had a certain amount of people who aren't gonna work, period. IB: And they're making the same money you are. Aves: just there from 8 o'clock in the morning They're there's people who are willing to put out a little extra effort and stuff like that, I think you should have gotten paid ••••••••••••• till 4 at night, where IA: Yeah. And there were a lot of other strikes, too, you were saying. Aves: Oh, yeah. IA: Why are you laughing? Aves: Well, I think that point- •••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••..•••• there but we never got to • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 26 IA: Aves: IA: So you don't think that the grievance know, people had grievances or problems that didn't ••• system worked really well? You Well, whenever a lot of those grievances they had a contract coming up and negotiating •••••••••••••••••••••• something ..................... and stuff, else so how Now, I've also, this I know I've read from my own work on the Right. Reo that the Reo local was not considered as some of the other locals overshadowed considered as important. as important 'cause the shop was small so they were as time went on by, you know, some of the other factories so they weren't Aves: Well, still, you still have that •••••• Oldsmobile Motors and •••••• and Ford and General IA: Right, just over power Aves: Because you have one •••••••• company that's going to strike and that company Most.of that. is gonna set precedent the strikes that were at Reo wasn't over wages and things like or whatever •••.• for all the rest •••••••••••••••••• It was basically over conditions or grievances IA: Like interpersonal, fair shake from somebody else, that kind of thing? like so and so didn't get along, wasn't getting a Aves: Right. IA: IS: You mentioned also heard from other people·that the conditions when we were outside. They were, we've they were not modern. What kind of problems Were, did the line break down a lot? ••••• standard? did you see due to the, condition Was the equipment problems? you had • • Aves: Yeah, assembly stuff, you got all these trucks starting up ••••••••••• line broke down a lot, that's true and then, ventilation no ventilation. IS: Did that make people sick breathing in those fumes? Aves: I would assume so, yeah. IS: No ventilation? Aves: IS: Some, some people get accustomed we're talking about gasoline to that, I think, carbon monoxide and engines and so on, ••••••••••••••••••••• You know, it would seem like with the union, somebody's around, somebody from the health board or somebody, well, it seems like • gonna be • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 27 they'd be around checking. in the late, in the mid-40s. But maybe that wasn't a consideration then, IA: No, not till the '60s. Aves: Never heard of it. Yeah. IA: Yeah, Occupational Health and Safety Acts, those kind of things. IB: Came along later, yeah. IA: •••••••• instituted, they weren't as, there weren't you know, came around as often until more recently. as many inspectors, Aves: IB: Aves: • IB: IA: I don't think I ever saw one •••••••• one if you had a problem could go to your supervisor and tell him about it ••••••••••••••••••• you It may not go anywhere do anything about it, you're saying? from there. He could report it but they may not No, nobody'd anything done was Ardith Pappon • do anything about it. The only one that could get Oh, really? •••••• she said that it was unhealthy? Aves: Um, hum. IA: Yeah. IB: And then they would listen to her? something? They might change a machine or Aves: Sometimes, yeah. IA: Hum, that's interesting. IB: Did you have machines that were unsafe, too, to operate? Aves: Oh, sure, yeah. IB: 'Cause I worked in a shop where there was personal ~:..andsand your face. hazards to your They tried to make it as safe as what they wanted to. in a press room, also • My mother worked Did she? Aves: • IB: otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 28 Aves: Um, hum, and they had straps around 'em ••••••••••••••••• 18: Supposedly to pull your hands back. • Aves: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• stuff ••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••• production stuff like that. and as far as I know and I worked also in press room • Well, in most, most of the accidents fellow •••••••••••••••••• assembly line got off of piece work but you still had piece work in press rooms and 18: Oh, is that right? IA: Oh, that's interesting. Aves: And it used to be, it used to be •••••• would tie a press down. other words, you had two buttons you had to put your hands on but they would lock the buttons down so that machine ••••••••••• had 20 foot ••••••••••• •••••••••••• you just push them lawn mowers ••••.•••.••.••• and like they were making lawn mower blades, ••••••••• continue to In IB: The blade? Aves: You just push those right straight through Yeah. blades come out the other end were that long and some were that long, all different fingers cut off. had one thumb left. sizes ••••••••••• and some of the He had all his IB: Because he was shoving that sheet metal through there? Aves: Yes. IB: •••••••• unsafe •••••• IA: Oh, my gosh. Aves: So, ......................... IA: Oh, gosh. It's not worth your fingers, not from my perspective. IB: IA: That's where I worked, on punch presses and things. Oh. IB: So I know what you're talking about. IA: IB: So part of it was just the way the people used them, too? Part of it and part of it was •••• I • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 29 Aves: It was on both sides. concern. their biggest •••••••••••• people •••••••••••••••••••••• IB: Aves: And the, well, somebody would be misusing foreman wouldn't really care or? notice it or he wanted to make production so he didn't a machine like that, the Well, I .•.......... course, this guy came up ••••••••••••• inspector I, the minute you turn down whole skid loads of these •••••••• , in the press room at one time and, of IB: And they all had to go to salvage or something. Aves: Right. that ••••• Then the supervisor would be interested in it but outside of IB: Because that was hurting his production record. Aves: Right. I've got all this scrap. What amI gonna do with it? IB: • Aves: IA: Right • · · · . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. and after he got done •••••••••••••••••••••••• stuff. sort ' em all out balance and all that So Reo didn't do any real significant equipment or anything ••••••••••••••••••••••• modernizing'of its plant or works on the line? Aves: IA: Yeah. Aves: Press room was pretty, pretty, they had gotten to a point where we were doing •••• •.•••• presses and things like that. IA: Ah, huh, so they did a little bit of updating. worked on before? But the line that you IB: You're talking about the assembly line? IA: Yeah, the assembly. Aves: Not really. IA: No, not a whole lot. different years? walking I mean, it was, it wouldn't have been all that in when you first started from when you left, 14, 15 Aves: No. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 30 IA: 18: Wouldn't have looked all that different. 'Cause we've heard that not much money was put back into keeping the shop up or updating it. IA: Right. Aves: We had more sublines and stuff coming in. spray unit on there. They also had a waterfall 18: What was the waterfall spray? Was it to keep, clean the parts or? Aves: Well, what it did is ah, frames came down this assembly had to paint the frame •••••••••••••••• line and you 18: Oh, spray painting? Aves: Yeah, we -had a lady on the other side that had a spray gun and I had a spray gun ••••••••• tanks and stuff so you had to •••••••••••• and we started out, I would spray the opposite side, the inside and the frame stuff and she would spray on this side so we were shooting at both •••• spray IA: Did you wear anything, any masks or anything? Aves: Oh, yeah. • IA: 18: Aves: 18: Aves: IA: IB: Oh, good. You had ••• ..................................... So you did have some kind of protection against the paint or the fumes? Yeah, and also this waterfall came down and it also captured the spray paint. Oh. Oh, all the particles that are in the air? Aves: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Was it like, big filtration kind of system, then? IA: 18: • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 31 Aves: Yeah, well, no. the booth or would have normally waterfall. It actually, all it did was, anything that was leaving left the booth, ended up in this IA: Right •••••••••••••••••• IS: I see, okay. That's really interesting. Aves: Sut inside, inside the booth itself ••• IS: It was everywhere. Aves: Yeah and that's one of the complaints me more than she did the ••• I had about women. She sprayed IS: I was gonna ask you if you ever sprayed each other, you know, go home olive drab. Aves: Very definitely. •••••••••• heat lamps and stuff ••• And then it went through heating lights and stuff IS: To dry the paint ••• Aves: and then they had what you' call a turnover and turned it over and sprayed it again, the outside ••••••••.•.••.. but you're only operating was chain •••••••• but ••.••...... and it picked the frame up turnover, IS: I wonder here, alright. if that •••••••••••••••••••••••••••• open to get a little in IA: Getting ••••••••••••••• IS: It is stuffy and I think we'll cook our visitor. Aves: •••••••••••••••• ? IA: Yeah. IS: I can take the cold better than I can take the heat. IA: After 1960 or so 'cause you said you were on the assembly years, then? line 15 Aves: doing busses Then, okay, I was on assembly department driving trucks for military call ••••• person that coordinated stuff. didn't figure was, was unacceptable •••••••••• If they drove the truck and they found something between the military inspectors that they and • or whatever or they •••••••.•••• line but I was also working inner city busses. in the bus I was also test and commercial •••••••• and I was what they • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 32 then I would get with the government a ride and decide one way or another. people and take the truck out for IB: So you took that out on the road like around Lansing and wherever? Aves: And then every once in a while, you had one that came off the Um, hum. assembly time we were doing 500 miles a day •••••••••••••••••• line that went 50 miles or another one that went 100. At one IA: This is what you did after you left the line, is test driving the military stuff? Aves: Um, hum. IB: So you would drive allover mile test or you just did a lot of •••••• the state of Michigan then to do the 500 Aves: Sometimes we'd go out of state. IB: out of state? • Aves: Aves: IB: Um, hum • Oh, isn't that interesting. Wherever •••••••• up. IA: Pick a point on the map, 500 miles from here, right? IB: And I was thinking, would do. IA: Yeah, right. too, maybe different terrain just to see what it Aves: in repair floor on what they call special equipment which vehicle, if they wanted a fifth wheel, you know what And I worked was, on commercial a fifth wheel is? IA: You probably do, right? Aves: It's where the semi comes up and it fasten to ••• IB: Fastens on to it. campers and that kind of thing. You've see the, you've seen 'em on •••••• field Right, right. Okay. work, if they wanted a red flashing light on the top or anything I would do that or if they had, my specialty was electrical that IA: • Aves: otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 33 had to do with electrical turn signal was, you know, optional and then, turn signals or whatever at that time. the cust, 18: That would have been '46, '47, some place, you're talking about the turn signals being optional? Interesting. think that ••• I wouldn't Aves: No, this was back in, this is back in the '50s. 18: In the '50s, okay. Aves: 18: I was trying to think when turn signals came out, really. Aves: Middle '50s or something like that. IAl Definitely, I've always ••••••••••••••• 18: I know they, what, the turn signals for the, for residential just a car, what was that, maybe late '50s? or for Aves: Urn, hum, I would think so. IB: IA: 18: 'Cause we used to stick our hand out. Right, actually now, I do remember this And the joke used to be, is she signaling fingernail polish. to turn or drying her IA: Oh, gosh. Aves: They still do that, when ••••••• motorcycle ••••••• IA: So, let me just make sure I have things clear that after 1960, you mostly did test driving outside of the shop, took the military out and test drove those. How long did you do that for? vehicles Aves: Probably about two years. IA: Okay, then what? 18: Well, was this after the Korean War, then, that the military were •••• contracts IA: This is the '60s already. 18: Oh, you're talking 60 not SO. I misunderstood. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 34 Aves: Somewheres around there. •••••••••• then I went to building busses. I don't know. ••••••••••• worked in there IA: Okay. IB: Where were those built? Aves: In a place they call 3A. ah, •••••• building between assembly line •••••••••••••••••• I don't know if you ever remember that. It's IB: Oh, over in the corner, Washington-Baker area? Aves: Um, hum. IB: IA: And that's where the Navy department had been bomb fusing before and then it went to busses. Oh, okay. That's, ••••• working on the city, on the, it was the city busses, right? IB: • Aves: IA: They got the contract for the city busses • Inner city busses. Inner city, okay. So, how long did you work for Reo, you know ••• Aves: Twenty-eight years. IA: Twenty-eight years, so that means till ••• IB: He went there in what, '44? IA: Right. So till '6•••• IB: Close till the end ••••••••••• IA: No, till, '44, it's 28 years, so it was the early '70s that you IB: And so you ••• Aves: Then I went to commercial engineering garage and I did test driving and a mechanic and towards the last ••••••• I could see that they weren't gonna go anyway ••• IA: • IB: IA: Probably, so was the early '70s already, you know, '44••• '44 and you worked there 28 years. '72. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 35 Aves: We used to build the vehicles, then we'd take 'em out and test drive 'em, see, and all of a sudden they decided that they weren't going to run a test program they ••••••••••••••••••••• and report back to them. the people who bought the trucks test 'em out So I left there and went to military and all that ••••••• and the prototypes anymore but ••••••• IA: They had military contracts all the way through? Aves: Oh, yes, all the way through. IB: But weren't there times when the contracts, and the work went down? People were laid off? you were between contracts Aves: Could be, I don't know. IB: Oh, you didn't personally experience that, okay. Aves: I think I went four weeks or so, the longest I was off and •••• IA: In all that time? Aves: Yeah. IB: Aves: Oh, is that right 'cause we've talked to people that, you know, mentioned work was, till the next contract didn't have to go through that. that when the contracts were gone and fulfilled, came in. Well, that's good that you then the Well, they were, it seems like something would come up like, okay, we're gonna build busses, you know, or we're gonna, we've got field work to do so they would send me out allover bases doing what they call ••••••••• and· so on, something a crew on and wanted to incorporate ••••••••• military to work on. it into ••••••••••••••••••••• trucks bases ••••••••••••••• the United States, about ••••.•••.• •••••• that they had I •••••. IB: Oh, is that right? By yourself? Aves: No, there was a crew, normally of about five people. ••••••••••••••• places I never hea~d of. you know, I •••••••••• military bases, So, ••••••••••• ••••••••••••• IB: That must of been interesting. Aves: They had stockpiles of military trucks and stuff like that. IA: So you really became a specialist servicing and the engineering in these military vehicles and the and all of that ••••••••••••••••• IB: And you did that right up to, close to your leaving? • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 36 Aves: Um, hum, •••••••••• yes. 18: And you retired from there or did you leave because you ••• Aves: No, I left, actually what happened purchased Diamond Reo or going with American by American Motors so I had the option of staying with is, the military engineering was Motors and so I did. IA: Went with American Motors in '1972? Aves: Yeah. 18: Did you do that because you, as you mentioned, things were coming to an end as far as the Reo was concerned? you could sense that Aves: • people at one time we would Yeah, it bothered me because they were leaving the commercial and like, okay, if you put an axle in the vehicle, test it to make sure it worked before it went through the •••••••• Okay. As it was, they would sell it to the people, the truck, the vehicle truck and if there was some problem with that or something that, they would go back to the manufacturing whatever, to do it. I thought we should get into a truck and if you're gonna build a truck, you should test it and be sure it's gonna be alright before you pass it on to the consumer which they weren't said, okay, if you're not gonna do your test work or any improvement it, I'm gonna ••••• military engineering sorts of •••••••••••••••••• because they're doing all doing. or whoever did the axle and I didn't think that that was the way So I like on IA: Testing, yeah. Aves: yeah, so that's what I did. IB: ThEay were putting out a better product palrt of it. and you felt better about being Aves: Ri9ht. 18: I'd like to go back just a minute and ask, you mentioned your mother worked in the factory and what did you say she did? earlier that Aves: she worked in the Navy department. 18: 80mb fuses. Aves: • 18: Aves: 80mb fuses. And then after the War, she went into the lawn mower department? Ri9ht. Otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 37 IB: How long did she stay at Reo? ,Aves: Till the lawn mower division went out •••••••••••••• also built •••••• IB: Mid-50s, something like that? Aves: Yeah, somewhere around there. IB: And then they built what? Aves: They also built cow swing sets and all that stuff. • IB: Yeah, I think somebody must of mentioned Oh. sets and they made that in where they had been making that to us, the cow swing lawn mowers? Aves: Um, hum. IB: s6 That's neat. to the end, too? Aves: Well, she's, she yeah, she was ••• 'IB: Oh, she was laid see. did she retire then from Reo or was she there, close was laid off when they did away with lawn mowers, off when the lawn mower division went down. so Oh, I • Aves: So, I would think she got a retirement out of it. IA: That must of been hard after 28 years to leave. Aves: Yes, it was. IA: IB: Aves: Especially company was doing its job properly anymore. the way that you had to, because you didn't think that the We've talked to a lot of people who felt job satisfaction finally come to the place where you couldn't product, that's got to be a bad feeling,. and to feel that good about your ••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••• I did right up until that point, till we started I worked on some of the trucks afterwards be 'em in and I would do the tune up on the engines that, you know. think what the name of it is now. after we, we installed every so many thousand the engine tuning and so on and so forth on it and •••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••• with that truck, whether feel proud about it •••••••••••••• it and it, we required that they come in for inspection So I would reset all the valves miles. oil company, The engine, you would I don't know what that guy does they would like and prior to that, we he's •••••••••••• and I thought, I'm trying to and why should I or whatever and things mechanical install and do • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 38 would run a truck 100,000 miles. completely we would know where the wear patterns were, what was satisfactory what wasn't and so we'd know when we designed from ••••••••• engine, the whole works, We'd bring it in and we'd tear it down, everything a new truck ••• so and IA: What you could do better. Aves: What you could do better, right. IA: Yeah, well, that's really interesting. 18: Gee, I think that's wonderful. cars It's too bad they don't do that with IA: Really. Aves: They used to. 18: Did they? Aves: Yes • IA: When they made their cars, they did that, too? Aves: Yeah. 18: Up until '36? IA: Yeah. Aves: Oh, this, this after one time, the month that I was off, they knew I was a test driver down to unemployment drive for Oldsmobile ••• office and they wanted me to go down to Milford '36 because Milford down here, proving ground, and the IA: Oh, Oldsmobile did it. Aves: on the Milford track. 18: On the test track. Aves: And I'm thinking, ................. 18: So you didn't go? drive all the way down there and all the way back? No, because keep up. I just couldn't do it. I had a family here and I had ••••• and everything else to Aves: • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 39 IS: How much, you mentioned your family, did your wife work also? Did she also work in the shop? Aves: Uh, ah. IS: She was on the farm doing lots of work? Aves: No. IS: No? Aves: She was being a mother (end side 1) IS: How many? IA: Two, three, four? Aves: Two, three, four••• IA: four, okay. Aves: Yeah, three boys and a girl. IS: And did any of them, did you want any of them to not work in a shop? We've talked to people who said, I don't want my son working in a shop. I don't want him to be a shop rat. Aves: No, but ••• IS: You sound like you had a good ••• Aves: IS: Pardon? Aves: No, but none of them do. IS: Oh, really? Aves: Um, hum. My one boy's head mechanic at Ryder out here. IS: Ryder Trucks? Aves: Hum? IS: Ryder Truck. Aves: Um, hum. IS: Oh, okay. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 40 Aves: He's as high as you can go in the mechanical end of it. who is a stone mason. I have another••• I have one son IA: Oh, that's nice work. Aves: son who has a sport shop up in Ludington and my daughter takes care of ........... people. IB: For goodness sake. Everybody's busy and active. You sound like you had a good experience and your years at Reo were good years. Aves: Oh, yeah, urn, hum. Yeah, I wouldn't of had a, if they would have wanted to go, that would have been their choice but the plant, when I left was ••• IB: Not the same plant as when you came in. Aves: Not the same. IA: I want to ask you about hunting. • Aves: Hunting? IA: Now, I've read lots of places that you couldn't find somebody to work at Reo during hunting season. Aves: That's true. IB: Pheasant and deer. Aves: I was one of 'em. IA: You were one of them, so what did they do? Did they give you a week off or something during hunting season, let the guys just go? IB: Did you just get sick? Aves: That was the only vacation that we had. IA: But that was the only vacation you had, they gave you the hunting season off? Aves: Urn, hum. IB: You didn't get a two week vacation or a vacation payor that? anything like • Aves: Well, yeah, we had a Christmas bonus back in those days. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 41 IB: Oh, you did? Right up toward the end, were you still getting that Christmas bonus? Aves: No, no, no. This was way back ••• IA: In the '40s, '50s. Aves: Right. IA: Yeah. about here on the line and would go, take that week or two off. But lots of, give me an idea of how many people we're talking Aves: I don't know. I wasn't there. IA: You weren't there1 IB: I remember when I was in school ••• IA: But they must of had, it must of been a significant amount. IB: everybody's dad was gone hunting. IA: People, they were all gone, right? Aves: Um, hum. They would either shut the line down or do inventory or something else. Boy, I thought somebody was knocking on here. IB: It's just noises. IA: They would really shut the line down for that week or two? around Thanksgiving. That was Aves: Well, I don't know really. IB: Really, that's amazing to think of doing that, you know, that's the last thing, shut the line down is like the end of the world. IA: There must of been, some guys were still there. Aves: Oh, yeah, I think there probably were. There were some guys who didn't hunt. IA: Who didn't hunt, just a few. Aves: Just a few and basically, all the way through all my employment is, hunting's first. I mean, I'll work for you but I •••••••••••••• IA: Right, so you said, Reo took priority over the farm but hunting took priority over the Reo. • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 42 Aves: You're only talking about a week. IA: A week, that week. IS: Yeah, we're only talking once a year maybe or twice. pheasant hunting, too, in the early days? Did you go Aves: Oh, certainly. IS: That used to be a big thing, pheasant hunting. Aves: I had a, pheasant in my sights last week. IS: Did you? Aves: Hunting season was over but that's the first one that I saw on the fly IS: But you couldn't pull the trigger. • Aves: IS: Oh, no, I wouldn't do that. all summer long so ••••••••• walk right across out walking that day and I walked as far as the dump and they just were as bold as the dickens and walked across ••• I only saw two rooster pheasants ••••••••••• and I was out there They knew you couldn't shoot 'em. Aves: That was the days when you go out and probably could have your limit for pheasants. in a hour and a half you IS: Gosh, it's amazing, they'd come back, they're they? coming back well, aren't Aves: Urn, hum, and deer, we go deer hunting and you were lucky, I saw six deer season this year and you could a seen anywheres the morning so we had property up there, too. and same amount in the afternoon, day after day ••••••••••• from 45 to 50 in IA: Oh, for hunting purposes? Aves: Urn, hum. IS: How far up north? Aves: It's Atlanta ••• IS: • Aves: Clare ••• do you know where Atlanta is? otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 43 IB: I do know where Atlanta is. Aves: Yeah, my mother's •••••• and I went together father had the property and when he passed away, and bought ••••••••••••••••• IA: Wow. Aves: So. IA: So you always had a place to go during that week. Aves: Back in those days, we used to go with tents and, you know, Oh, yeah. all that kind of stuff but now, then shortly after that we got the house trailer and put that up there and now we got a cabin and it sleeps 14. IB: Wow. IA: I don't think you'd call it a cabin if it sleeps 14. house. It sounds like a Aves: IA: I see. Aves: ••••••••••••••••••• 0 •••• IB: And the women aren't gonna go up there and tent all year round but they will go •••• Aves: Women?! IB: Oh, you don't ••• IA: They're not allowed. Aves: All of a sudden, we're getting back into discrimination. IA: I just think it's so interesting negotiable, all sorts of things but not this week, every year. you know, for many of these guys. that the company, this was not I mean, they negotiated Aves: See, you always had the threat of you're gonna be fired but then you ••••••• back, you can't get along without me. IA: And I think probably just a couple guys ••• 'cause so many of you did it, you know, if it was Aves: We requested vacation. it, we requested it. It was a vacation, a scheduled • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 44 IA: It was a scheduled vacation. 18: So you could request it ahead of time? Aves: Yes. 18: Did anybody ever get fired for going or was there anybody no, you can#t go this week, I mean, you know, turned down? ever said, Aves: Everybody talking about the foremen and stuff like that. said that, you know, they all said you can't go ••••••• 18: I bet some of the foremen went, too, didn't they? Aves: Sure they did. IA: This is so funny to me. It's great. • Aves: and that was one of the stipulations. for ••••••••••••• as transportation I said, yeah, I'll And even to place, when I worked supervisor work for you but, I go to Colorado ••••••••••••••••••••••••••• for #em, I had ••••••••••••••••••••• or Wyoming or some place like that, In fact, just the last year that I worked IA: Oh, my. 18: So you, in the final years at Reo, you went through mean, the factory went through what they were producing ••• some big changes, some changes, I wise and ownership IA: The quality ••• 18: Aves: Yeah, and I guess what I'm wondering in the ownership and what you saw going on. is how you felt about the changes The ownership, concerned selling things out. ••••••••••••••••••••••• they came in to, as far as I was to buy the, well, the first thing I noticed they started IA: Divisions and parts of the company. Aves: Yeah. IA: Yeah. They said you had too large a inventory ••••••••••• like mad . and all that kind of stuff, lman, we was just selling stuff and all that stuff but when Aves: • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 45 IA: Yeah, I guess I did. it click? IB: I didn't either. That's why we have back-up tapes. Did you hear IA: Seems like a long time. IB: You can take my tape home with you and play yours and then play mine if see, hear something on mine, I'll make you a new tape. Aves: and It was real interesting •••••••••• when they bought when ••••••••••••••• like that, ••••••••••••• That gave me a little more ••••••• so you get to the point where you don't do the It was interesting brought that down for engineering. revitalization road test or anything because when we used to do our test driving stuff, we used to drive a City, Indiana and we would stop at the different semi down to Michigan coffee stops where the truckers stopped and ••••••• truckers what kind of a engine you got in that and our orders were W ••••••.••. we got on the highway which were all two lanes back in those days and we had 40,000 pounds of concrete would go ••••••••••••••••• stopped for coffee or whatever fantastic to be able to talk with truckers, on and we'd carry them back and while I was in the ••••••• garage, always said, unless you worked assembly an engineer or a mechanic on assembly make that ••••••• because you have to literally line in order to know what you have to do in engineering to a trailer. all the way down through there unless we and we had places, we'd stop. hear their concerns line, you wouldn't, •••••••••••• experience couldn't mounted and so I •••••.•. , be this to But it was We IA: •••••••••• , yeah. I don't think that goes on too much today, either. IB: But the truckers who knew what they wanted from a truck respected Reo truck and its engine? the Aves: They ••••••••••••••••••••• Oh, yeah. the •••••• that they had, that was really the rage. over to things towards the end ••• •••••••••••••••• and when they first came out, But also we •••.•• diesels and a lot of •••••••. diesels IB: Diesel engines? Aves: And we just •••••••••••••••• busses, too, when we built the inner Yeah. city busses, we'd have what you call the •••••••••••••••••••.• pancake they took 'em out to show them was •••••••••• had built and it also had clear glass door, plexiglass •••••••••••••• floor. And the first lawn mowers that, when inner city bus that we door ••• a IA: Wow. Aves: So you'd walk in here and look down and see the engine down •••••.. • • • • Otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 46 IS: Is that right? demonstration, what I wanted, demonstration. And it would take that out for, dis ••••••• , I was trying to say distribution and I knew that wasn't Aves: Then we had another bus that we built out there and they would put all the lawn mower products in and they would tour the country with that. IS: Oh, really? Aves: ••••••• have some power plant use it ••••••••••• mowers inside the busses so that they could walk down a little aisle and out the back and see the lawn mowers on both ends. and have the lawn IS: Where would, now where would you take this, this vehicle? Aves: I didn't do it. IS: No, I mean the, whoever demonstrat ••• took it, what types of places would they be Aves: • IB: Aves: Fairs, county fairs ••• county fairs. or any public gatherings the Reo •••••••••• controlled. ••••••••••••• back in those days. ••••••••••••••••••••••••• and they also had I don't know if you remember that but it was radio So the guy would sit back here and the lawn mower •••••••• IA: IB: They probably future, right. figured, oh, that's the way it's going to be in the Yeah, I remember when I was in grade school, we all thought we were gonna, that, the world in the future was going to be ••• IA: All automated, yeah. IS: yeah, and we'd be flying instead of driving and the cars would be on a, those that did drive would be on some sort of a metallic electronic know, and you'd just get on this track like a train on a rail and go to your destination track so there would never be car accidents. and they have ~n •••••••••••• track, or You'd, you Aves: We built, the bus one time, it was at, built up to be like a •••••••• IA: Oh, ah, huh. • Aves: And had places underneath ••••• bottom of a golf cart, •••••••••••••• IA: Was this custom? otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 47 Aves: Urn, hum. 18: I've heard before that they built things, custom things like Dale Robertson with his horse ••• for celebrities Aves: I met Dale Robertson. 18: Did you? Aves: Yeah. 18: Were you involved and things he bought? in working on some of the specialized horse trailers Aves: No, it was basically 'em up. the truck engineering when he first came to pick IA: I have some questions about, when you were ••• Aves: Did Reo ever make a farm tractor, yes. 18: What kind of a, tell me about the farm tractor. Did they actually build it or did they con ••• What was it called? Aves: No, they ••• 18: was that subcontracted? Aves: Well, no, they contracted only built six or eight of 'em. •••••• I think but as far as I know, they IA: When was this? Aves: Oh, it's a long time ago. IA: It was in the old days. Aves: IA: Right. 18: Was that while you were working there? Aves: Yes. IA: Oh, okay. Aves: Was a six cylinder •••••••••••••• 18: That wasn't the sampson tractor, was it? • • • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 48 Aves: I don't know what they called it. IA: I was gonna ask you about the clubhouse., Aves: Loved it. IA: You spent a lot of time there when you were a kid and older, when you were older, too? Aves: Sure because they had free shows. IA: Free movies. Aves: Free movies, you bet. 18: And your dad worked ••• IA: And your parents took you there and you spent time there? Aves: Yes and all the banquets a circus there and ••• that we had, you had the Reo banquets and they IA: Oh, the circus, oh, I didn't know that. Aves: Well, it was like a fair like because the people got together and things like that. •••••••••••••••••••• parrot and we take the parrot and the monkey and we would take to there, you know, so the from •••••••••• see 'em and they had all their handicraft ••••••••• exhibits, and everything We happened to have a out there. 'em down could and, like IA: From the different people who worked there? Aves: Yes. 18: So it was within the Reo. traveling circus like Ringling They produced Brothers. the circus. This wasn't a Aves: Yes, oh, no. 18: It's a •••••••••••••••••••• IA: Oh, I see. Aves: It's, well, it's behind the clubhouse, next to the ••••••••••• IA: 18: Oh. Was that always there, just, was there one time or ••• Aves: No, it was about four years that I know of. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 49 18: Oh, that it was there that people could go in and out and take things and ••• IA: Did you read the Spirit? Aves: Yes. IA: Your dad would bring it home or your mom bring it home? Aves: What do you mean, I worked there, too? IA: No, I know, but I meant when you were younger even 'cause the Spirits I read from, were from the '20s and '30s so. Aves: Well, Reo Items, too. IA: The Items, that's right. We've seen those. 18: Oh, that was the other one. Somebody gave us ••• Aves: In fact, our family pictures on, we had a cover of it for Thanksgiving issue••• 18: Your family? IA: You don't remember what year, do you? Aves: No, I don't remember what year. 18: That was on the cover of the Reo Items? Aves: Yeah. 18: How old were you then about, do you think? Aves: I'd just gotten married and had a child so I was, let's see ••• 18: Probably some time in the '50s then, early '50s? Aves: Somewhere, '46••• IA: 1946? 18: What year did you get married? We'll pin him down on, when's your anniversary? Aves: '44. IA: Okay, so some time in the mid-'40s, okay, we'll have to look for that one. • • • • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 50 IS: That's what I was thinking because we have some back here. Aves: I have it somewhere. pictures and they ..•.••••.•.•.•••••.•.••• and stuff and we got flooded. We got, I had a lot of stuff down the basement, Had one of those big ••••••••• IA: on. Aves: Two freezers full of venison and hams, all that stuff. IS: We're talki.n' a big loss here. Aves: Picked .••.••...•.............••... IS: You talked about driving or owning one of the old Reo ambulance vehicles. Tell me about that vehicle. Aves: Well, it was brown in color, brownish gray. in the fender wells. covered seats ••• OUtside of that, i1:was basically It had fender wells, tires the same, cloth IS: What model, what year would this car have been, you think? Aves: I would say it was about a '31, '32. IS: Oh, okay, we're talking big, square cars" then. Aves: Oh, yeah. IS: And it was yours for ••• Aves: It was what they called a hospital car. injured, to transport somebody That's all I know. whatever. Actually, it was, if they had them either to a doctor or hospital or IS: And then how did you happen to buy it? Aves: They were discontinuing it and using taxi cabs and stuff. IS: Oh, really? Aves: So, it was up for sale. dollars. How much did I pay for it? Three hundred IS: Three hundred dollars, and do you still have it? Aves: No, I don't have it. I •••••••••••••••• IA: If you ••••••• , it'd be worth a lot more now. Otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 51 Aves: It was a beautiful car. 18: Was it? Aves: Oh, yeah. 18: IA: I wonder whose job it was to be the chauffeur in those days. to talk to her. Maybe Ardith Pappon will know. of the hospital We're certainly car, back hoping Did you participate teams? and things like that. Reo had a lot of sport teams like baseball teams and bowling or anybody in your family participate in any of the Aves: Just the picnics. IA: Just the picnics, you guys just went to the picnics. 18: Where were they held? Aves: Ah, Grand Ledge, Fitzgerald Lansing ••• Park ••••••••••••.••.• some at Lake IA: Right. August. Those were in August, right? They had those big ones in 18: Maybe that's why they still get together in August •••••••••• IA: Yeah, yeah. people would bring things from their farms and women would bake stuff, you know, like they'd have a pie contest and things like that. They had lots of, I've read about them. They had, lots of 18: Oh, that sounds like fun. IA: Yes. Aves: Well, we did 18: And the kids all had games to play and prizes, maybe. Aves: Yeah, they gave a lot of gifts and stuff. stuff and they had a lot of nice things, you know, I mean, well, I don't really remember now but they were nice, back in those days as far as I was concerned. They would issue tickets and I'm talking, IA: Yeah, certainly Aves: All kind of pop and ice cream. IA: You went to those as a kid? • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 52 Aves: Yeah. IB: If you went to Lake Lansing, did you have tickets, could ride the rides or? free tickets so you Aves: Yeah. IA: Oh, I didn#t know that. A carrousel and~ •• IB: It was a big amusement park. They had evezyt h Lnq, Aves: They would take ••••••••••••••• park ••• they just took over the whole amusement IB: For the day. IA: Oh •••• IB: And so you could ride the ••• • Aves: Well, it was more ••••••••••• to Fitzgerald Park, •••••••••••••••••••••• out there to Lake Lansing Park but over IA: Another company. IB:. Oh, I see. Oh, okay. Aves: IA: ........................................ Right. allegiances advantage I've always been interested in if there was, like you felt your were torn with things like that or that you just took of whatever either of them ••• Aves: My ••••••••••• was what? IA: Whether your allegiances were •••••• or torn ••• IB: Company or ••• IA: Between union and company. each other but they' also give the workers know, these kinds of •••• I mean, obviously they're contesting with lots of different things, you Aves: I was more for the company. IA: You were? Aves: Basically, earning's • yeah, because coming from a farm and things like that, the good as far as I was concerned. otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 53 18: You were satisfied with your wages and ••• Aves: Yeah, if I didn't, I'd get another job. 18: Aves: I was going to ask you earlier Sure. Oldsmobile during the years you were at Reo. was better or the work was more steady or ••• if you ever considered going to If you thought the pay Well, we had a chance and I'm trying to think what it was, the option of going there at one time and I don't remember what it was and I decided to just take the layoff and not worry about it. brother did go to Oldsmobile. younger brother and both of 'em worked He worked on, I had a older brother in export at Reo. My younger and 18: Oh, really? So you really were a Reo family. Aves: Oh, yeah. 18: And everybody families quite well on what you were making. was satisfied with the wage and you could support your Aves: Yeah, we were, I had a father-in-law, a sister-in-law, brother-in-law. IA: Oh, your wife's family, too. Aves: Yeah. 18: Golly. Aves: 'Cept I couldn't get my wife to go to work. 18: I was just going to ask, was she at the Reo. I just thought maybe, you know, she might have been ••• Was that how you met her. Aves: No, I met her at Motor Rollerdome. 18: Oh, the Rollerdome. near where R.E. Olds father's machine Oh, I remember shop was. that. That was right down here IA: Oh, my. 18: Oh, yeah. Aves: She was a classy gal and was doing skate dances and I was interested her and so I, a fellow by the name of Ross, I don't know if you, did you go roller skating? in 18: Urn, hum. • • • • otto Aves 1/4/93 Page 54 Aves: Okay, a fellow by ,the Ross •••••• would'skate we met. dance and so that's how IB: I never got good enough for skate dancing. the floor, I was happy but, oh, I loved it. to go. A lot of Reo families went there. If I could just stay up off That was such a fun place Aves: ••••••• Goldie, gal who played the organ. IB: Oh, okay. Aves: Remember her?