•

•

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 1

IB:

This is March 2nd, 1993, Shirley Bradley, Lisa Fine. We're at the
R.!. Old's Museum and we're going to be interviewing Sue Ellen
HoughtallingBrown
work years there.
P.O. Box 241, Vestaburg, Michigan 48891, phone 517';"'268-5588.

about memories of the Reo fire and of her father's
Sue Ellen Brown's address is 7131 Avenue C,

IA:

Just some background information. We usually start with that. Were
you born here in Lansing?

Brown: Wayne County, Detroit.

IA:

Oh, alright. And did you, did you all move here for your dad's job
at the Reo?

Brown:

I was adopted.

IA:

Oh, okay.

Brown: And my dad worked for a different corporation at that time and then

changed jobs and worked for Reo.

IA:

And so that's why you came here with him. Okay.
primarily in Lansing?

Did you grow up

Brown:

Yes.

IA:

You went to school here. Okay.

Brown: My dad always lived in the Lansing-Charlotte area but I was adopted
through Ingham County and the other information they won't allow me
to have so •••

IA:

You were very young though, when you were adopted?

Brown:

Urn, hum.

IA:

Urn, what did your father do at Reo?

Brown:

He was in the office, in management.

IA:

Okay, and when you were growing up when he worked there, where in
Lansing did you live?

Brown: We live on, 1210 N. Logan.

IA:

Okay, and did you own the house?

Brown: Yes.

IA:

You owned the house. Did you have other brothers or sisters?

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 2

Brown:

Urn, I have three other adopted sisters that are older than me.

IA:

Did you mom stay home with you?

Brown:

Yes.

IA:

Brown:

Okay, now we get to the good stuff.

She stayed home.
before when we were talking that you have very vivid memories
going to the clubhouse
and the parties
still have movies when you were a child at the clubhouse?

and all of that.

You said

Did they

of

At the., at the time, it was like a dinner Christmas
Claus was there and us kids would file down and sit on Santa's
and get a candy cane and all of us were dressed up in pretty dresses
and two of my sisters were gone at the time and JoAnne and I would go
to the Christmas

party and Santa
lap

parties while dad was working

for Reo.

IA:

Your parents would come down with you, too?
thing?

It was like a family

Brown:

Well, it was at nighttime

so, yeah •••

IA:

You all went down together.

Brown:

My folks had to drive us down there and it was a night party for the
for Christmas.
adults and their family.

It was a family get together

IA:

And, the way you're talking about it, it sounds like it was very
exciting.

Brown:

It was big.

It was an experience

from this day on, you know.

was dressed up and everybody

It was, it looked big inside.

Everybody
enjoyed ourselves.

I had a lot of fun.
There was a lot of people.
was happy and we thoroughly
that, yo.u know, I can remember
sittin' way back but I can still see Santa Claus.
thought that that was great, you know.
dad's parties because they used to have dinners or meetings
mother was even, would go on trips with my dad and things like that,
you know, out to like cocktail parties and things like that with
businessmen.
type of clothes that she wore and the jewelry and I remember
gettin' ready for these things and there are a few pictures
hoping I can be able to get.
I'm gonna, my mother is going to go through the scrapbook
gonna let me have it so there'd be possible,
possibility
able to come back with a little bit more information •••

I remember them talking about it.

that I'm
and I'm hoping
and she's

Boy, I get to go to one of

My dad's got a scrapbook

I remember my mom's

You know, I

I may be

I was

them

where, my

IA:

Great.

Brown:

about 'em.

I

r

[
1

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 3

IA:

Did your mom do any of the women's club type stuff 'cause I know some
of the, maybe it was just the office staff and not so much the wives
that.·were involved

in things.

Brown:

Yeah, she never was involved with •••

IA:

The Reo stuff.

Brown:

ye.ah, she was more involved with her church and us kids growin' up.

IA:

So that was primarily
church.

her, her other activity was involved with the

Brown:

Right, with the Nazarene

Church, Mifflin,

over on Mifflin

Street.

IB:

Oh, Mifflin.

Brown:

Chl:lrchof Nazarene.

IB:

IA:

•

Yes, it's off, runs off East Michigan.

Ah, huh, o.kay. Besides the Christmas
the clubhouse
life besides the fact that that's where your dad went to work every
day?

or anything else, in a way that Reo was a part of your

party, anything

else down at

Brown:

Basically,

I think •••

IA:

That was it.

Brown:

that was about it and that we did, we were involved
parties. and we, you know, that was one thing except for ·maybe once in
a while dropping
dad off or picking him off from work.
seeing the outside of the building.

in the Christmas

I remember

IB:

You never got to go into his office or •••

Brown:

No, no.
look like and •••

I wished I could.

I see pictures

of what his office used to

IB:

What was he, you said he was in management.

Brown:

Manag.ement.

IB:

Do you know what department

he was in ch'arge of or what his job was?

Brown:

•

Um, I can't think right off, that's why I want to get the scrapbook
on him because dad is definitely
the information

and my mom thinks that

should go out.

closed-mouth

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 4

IA:Oh,

I see, so they have a disagreement about this?

Brown: No, no. No, dad just, he says, I don't have anything to/say.

IB:

He's notgonna

do it.

Brown:

He doesn't want to •••

IB:

It's okay if she wants to do it.

Brown:

Right.
he"s, he just doesn't say anything.

It's okay for me to gather and what she's gathering up but

IA:

That name does seem familiar to me.

Brown:

Donald, Donald Houghtalling.

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

•

That's just what I was going to say.

I know we've run across it.

Yeah, we've seen it.

In some of our interviews or in some of the literature and things
we've looked through.

You know, we may have even seen a picture 'cause we've had other,
we've seen other people's collections of photographs, company
photographs.

Brown: He was written up in the newspaper.

I'm not sure if it was for •••

IB:

The Reo newspaper?

Brown: No, in the State Journal.

IB:

In the State Journal.

Brown: Yeah.

They've got one where they did a caricature picture of my dad

but I know that he was at Diamond Reo.
I know that he was over at
Reo on Mt. Pleasant and he was over at the Motor Wheel over hereon
Saginaw and so he filtered throughout Diamond Reo and Motor Wheel.

IA:

IS:

Brown:

•

Did he stay through the end? Was he there till '75?

When it closed?

he wasn't.

Let's see. We moved back from, because at the

No,no,
time he ended up over at Motor Wheel ••••••••• for the Reo lawn
mowers and he used to do sales and upper management sales. He used
to fly out and I've still got one of the old lawn mowers, one of the
original Reo push lawn mowers.

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 5

IB:

A push mower.

Brown:

Um, hum, without no motor and that's, it's still "in its original
paint and everything.

Do you guys have that for the Museum?

IB:

Brown:

IB:

Brown:

We have several lawn mowers here.
you have but we've been fortunate enough, we've got some of the power
mowers and some of the push mowers and somebody told us they even had
a riding motor and I'm hoping that will come to light.

I don't know if we have the model

Oh, my gosh.
.................

My dad might still have one.

Yes, I, I drove all the riding lawn mowers that dad would bring in
and sometimes they would go to like Comstock Park and do a
demonstration

at the park even.

•

IB:

Oh, with the Reo lawn mowers.

Brown:

Um, hum.

IB:

Oh, that's interesting.

Brown:

And we've got a lot of pictures on that.
standing there with the push mower and •••

It's in color and him

IB:

Is that right?

Brown:

Yeah.

He flew out a lot to, to a lot of the •••

IA:

Did business trips?

Brown:

Right, a lot of business trips.
around and all I did was see him on the weekends

So, I, my dad wasn't around, really

'cause •••

IB:

That was the way •••

Brown:

Reo and Motor Wheel had him going, flying and where I see my dad, I
wave at him good bye at the airport and hello at the airport.

IB:

Did he like going out on those trips or did he kind a •••

Brown:

•

He, I think my dad really enjoyed working for the company and the
corporation
and he was discouraged when LaGrange, down in Indiana,
when they decided to ••••• and that's when my dad, he was offered,
because I think at that time, Motor Wheel or for the Reo, for lawn
and garden things, the factory down there in LaGrange,
offered him, if I'm right, I don't want to, you know, you can check
it out, I think Wheelhorse

and Goodyear bought out that division and

Indiana, they

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 6

they were gonna move him down to Ohio and make him one of the VPs
dow'n there because he knew so much about the business
said, my roots are in Michigan
Garden place like he was startin' allover
up from a $50,000 to a $200,000 within a year and a half.

and built their business

and so then,he went to Lorenz Lawn and

and my father

IB:

Goodness.

Brown:

Now the business
it just went choom, right down hill.

is closed, I understand.

After my dad left Lorenz's

IB:

It takes the right person.

He must of been very, a very efficient •••

Brown:

Very good, very good, very strict, very management
his home like he ran his department.

minded.

He ran

IB:

Well, maybe I should of grown up in that household.
little more organized.
closed, before the factory closed?

So, that would of happened

Maybe I'd be a

before the Reo

Brown:

Um, yeah, it did because he was back in Lansing.
Lansing
9th grade and I graduated

We moved back into
in 19, oh boy, I hope it's '63, '62, it was, I went into the

in '67 so we can go back from there.

IA:

Graduated

high school?

Brown:

I went to, I went to otto Junior High School and then I went to
Eastern High School.
in Otto Junior High School because that's when the shop in LaGrange,
Indiana closed down and we moved back into Lansing.

I only spent one part of the 9th grade semester

IA:

IB:

So you were actually

in Indiana for awhile?

Oh, I see.

Brown:

We lived in Sturgis, Michigan

which was only three miles from •••

IA:

IB:

Brown:

Oh, over, across the border.

Oh, and so your dad commuted back and forth.

'cause it was only, maybe about, you know, a few miles away

yeah,
because we were right on the borderline
on the borderline,
to go back and forth to work.

too, so maybe the most he drove was about 10 miles

and LaGrange

is kind a like

IB:

How long were you down there?

Brown:

We were down there in '60 to I think 1963 'cause I went through
8th and half of 9th grades and then, like I say, moved back up here

7th,

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 7

or into Lansing and dad resumed working

into Michigan,
different,
things were suppose to be okay and all that I can gather from is I
think my dad lost all of his benefits

he knew he had his time in and

small company because

through this.

for a

IB:

I was wondering.

Brown:

I think he did.

It's something

really hard for him to talk about.

IB:

That's another reason he doesn't feel like he can verbalize.

Brown:

Yeah, he had to start allover

again.

IB:

There are people, even today, that I speak with and they choke up
when they talk about it.

Brown:

to

cars and that was my big dream was to, I don't know, other
I wanted to work for General Motors.

I choke up when, you know, it kind a, I was always attached
building
kids wanted to go to college.
I wanted to build cars and I was lucky to be able to be a part of
General Motors and to work for the company, you know.
was my dream and my dad's dream was management
went through,
fire or the closing of the plant.
that were just thriving
General Motors,
Motors people were out of work so it took from the time of Diamond
Reo closing its doors till 1979 and 1980,
finally found a job.
in other places but I know that they filtered
Corporation

of the
Lansing
for a job, wanting to work, but at that time,

I think, shut down part of the line and even General

So here that
and knowing what Reo

because they had factory experience.

Some of 'ern, you know, probably

what, you know, the devastation

There were people allover

, 81'f that these people

into the General Motors

I can understand

filtered back

IA:

Right, but some of them were too old.

Brown:

Right.

A lot of 'em were too old.

IB:

That's another sad thing.

Some of them were so close to retirement.

Brown:

Yes, and they, well, my, that's why I'm sure because
is a Social Security check.

all my dad gets

IA:

Oh.

Brown:

So I'm sure that he lost all of his benefits
he put in there.

and all the years that

IB:

That's tough.

Brown:

That's why it's tough for my father to talk about it.

I

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 8

IB:

IA:

Brown:

Yeah, I can understand

that.

When you all came back from Sturgis, you didn't move back to the same
house, 1210, you went to a different

house?

No, they moved the house.

We lived over on High Street, 1415 N. High Street,

No.
if it's 1514.
gravel pit.
you can see the house.
but you can still, I can still see the house and they rented that
for, I think it was two years and bought the house on 732 Cleo and
then I bought the house and then I sold it.

Now it's over, if you look across from the gravel pit,
They moved it way around into a subdivision

It sat right beside the

I think, or

IA:

Oh, that was when you were waiting

in the apartment •••

Brown:

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

IA:

Brown:

in the apartment

for my folks to, because

That's when I was waiting
they were ready to retire and I told dad I would like to buy that
I have this feeling and dream that I want to go to work
house because
at General Motors and, at the body plant and the house being only two
blocks away and having a baby and that, I would be able to support my
child and be able to go to work without having to even worry about
So my
transportation
folks sold me the house and I didn't ask for no deals either and
didn't get one.
since '88 and then I moved up to Vestaburg,

I paid the price and I stayed there up until ,about,

would be convenient

and everything

Michigan.

for me.

Anything

else, Shirley, or we can go on to the fire?

We can go on to the fire.

Yeah.

I'm anxious to get into that.

Which is actually where we are now 'cause you're at Cleo, right?
were in the apartment waiting
told us some of this but if you could just maybe start from the
beginning.

for the Cleo house.

You.were home •••

So you already

You

T.V. and my baby always goes in my lap and I
T.V. and I decided to get up because

I was home watching
breast fed and was watching
car had pulled out of the parking
cars will park in front of the windows
just oh, wow, wow, wow.
there, you know, the car moved and I went and looked out the·door
the window and all of a sudden I see this, I reminded me of Germany
they had these
before they had changed the lights here in Michigan,
yellow lights over in Europe when I lived in Germany
and I go, my
gosh, that reminds me of Germany and then I thought again and I says,
no, my gosh, that's a big fire.

lot and I could see, you know, how
okay, and I

I can see the sky and I kind a looked out

I thought actually

at the apartment,

it was the

or

a

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 9

chassis plant, Oldsmobile
towards the downtown
Diamond Reo is on fire.

burning but it wasn't.

The more I drove

area, the closer I got to the fire and my gosh,

IA:

So you actually

got in your car?

Brown:

I got, well, I had to, I had to •••

IA:

Arrange

all the stuff together

••••••••• ready.

Brown:

I had

and I had to

on the floor.

into warm clothes.

I had to dress my daughter

I didn't know who blistery

_I took two extra rolls with me and make

I had to get her diaper bag just in case, you

'cause I had to keep on checking on my daughter

I laid two blcinkets, or a sheet first
Laid the baby on the floor, wrapped

I had to change my baby's diaper in case it was wet so she would have
a dry diaper.
to put her in her snowsuit.
and two blankets
Jamie up and tied her up real snug and had her little hat, bonnet on
and her, I put a sky mask on her because
the wind would be.
know,
load my camera up with film.
sure that the lenses, the correct lens was on there'which
sure if it was.
I was in quite a hurry.
Lenawee and Butler in the Lenawee Apartments
Chevelle,
Glen Signs.
station wagon and we, I drove towards the light.
and out of streets, trying to get towards the light because
sure what was on fire.
thought General Motors was on fire.
head and then I pulled up and it wasn't on Baker Street but the
street before Baker, or the first street and you turn left just
before Diamond Reo there's two streets on each side.
and then pass the store and I pulled my car down one block and walked
up to the fire.
how am I going to get around this heat because the closer I got, even
when I was in the street, it was warm.

I kept on going in
I wasn't
I
was going through my

He used to put it in a car show and it was a snazzy

In fact, it came from Gary Glen, from

I lived on the corner of

I thought the downtown

green station wagon.

no fire department.

area was on fire.

I then decided,

No policemen,

I had a 1970

Everything

I turned

I'm not

there.

left

IB:

Now, you're walking up Washington

Avenue?

Brown:

No, on a side street off from Washington
West.

Avenue that runs East and

IB:

Elm or something.

Brown:

It's the, if you were coming from the north heading
be the first street.

south, it would

IB:

I think that's Elm •

Brown:

Okay, and I'm not sure of that.

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 10

IB:

I'm not either.

Brown:

See., I'm not even sure if the other street is Baker street.

IB:

There are two •••

Brown:

IB:

Brown:

I just, you know, kind of read Baker Street's in trouble you know, or
something, you know, it got kind a bad there, neighbor,
got bad I
guess, but ah, I parked my car and then I tied another sheet on my
back to harness Jamie around my back because I knew I couldn't have
her in the front of me because of the reason that it was warm, common
sense brought in, my daughter would be behind me.

And you needed to have your camera in front of you.

I've never been in, you know, really been on a train like

Right, I needed to have my camera equipment
and my film in front of
me so what I did was, I found the closest building to the fire which
It looked like the old train station
was like a train station area.
to me.
that, only in Germany, but I ducked inside of the, I think it was a
fire exit d~or or a service door type thing, steel door.
There was
from the
at least a good two feet, you know, to where I was protected
fire and I would pop my head out and take a picture and then pop back
in and then I'd pop back out and take a picture and pop back in.
And
then I heard an explosion on one side and this would be, this picture
right here.
from the building to get the explosion that I heard over here.

When I heard, see, you can tell that I had to come out

IB:

That would have been over here some place?

Brown:

IB:

IA:

Brown:

Right and so I jumped out, out of that doorway and then continued to
take pictures
the fire, on the right hand side.

I could get, of
There was three major flames •••

and that was as far as the intensity

Major sources •••

Sources.

Three different
the building.
then in the center.

sources of flames.

There·was

one on the east side of

There was one on the west side of the building

and

IB:

But they hadn't come together yet, if you were looking •••

Brown:

I think what, I think what happened is, the way I looked at it is
that there's a possibility
place in the middle.

that it, the fire had started in the first

IB:

I see.

•

•

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Sue Ellen Brawn
3/2/93
Page 11

Brawn: Mel then I think becilluseaf the grease and the chemicals that have

be.en an the floor through the years, I dare say the fire trailed to
something else that was on each side of the building because •••

IA:

Traveling

along the floor.

Brown:

It traveled, yeah, you could tell how it traveled because all of a
s·udden an explosion went off over there and then another explosion
went off over there.
came
and •••

Then that's when the police department

IA:

Did you smell anything?

What did it smell like?

Brown:

I couldn't smell anything because I tried to direct, instead of going
on the other side because of the wind coming from the north •••

IB:

So the wind was blowing from behind you toward the fire?

Brown:

Right, right, and so it was, it was, I was basically trying to avoid
the heat and trying to find the best situation and the safest
situation to be able to take pictures of the fire and since this
building was right there, I thought that would be a good source of
protection because of the brick that was on there and so I used that
side, I used the south side of the building to take the pictures.

IB:

So you were facing where the clubhouse is •••

Brown:

Well, I mean, I was on the north side •••

IB:

and all those buildings?

Brown:

Yeah, I was on the north side of the building and taking pictures to
the south.

IB:

Brown:

Um, hum, straight south, right.
•••• ••••
arrived and started taking photographs
emergency vehicles or anything or anyone came and talked to you?

How long do you think you stood there betw.een the time you

Across the tracks •••••• factory

till the time you heard any

Um, there was 36 exposures, three rolls of film, the time it took for
me to drive there and everything,
I unloaded
my cameras because I had run out of film and I had started to back up
and that's when the police officer had drove up and •••

the police didn't come.

IA:

You were already on the way, you were already on •••

Brown:

I was on my WillYto backing out because I had no more film.
was gonna do is go back to the car and continue watching the fire
from there.

What I

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/9.3
Page 12

IB:

So you were sitting in your car?

Brown:

No, I hadn't reached my car yet.

IB:

And he came up to you •••

Brown:

The police officer came up to me and he didn't give me a badge number
or anything
said I was leaving and he says if you don't leave now, I will put you
under arrest for obstruction.

He just told me that I had to leave and I

like that.

IB:

And you were the only one in the parking

lot?

Brown:

and the fire department
I was the only one.
had not come yet and I said, I asked him why and he told me it was
none of my business,
me because

that if I didn't leave then he was gonna arrest

I started asking questions.

The police department

IB:

What kind of questions

did you ask?

Brown:

•

any protection

of the fire and there was no fire trucks on the south side

I asked why the fire went on this long without
the homes that were in the vicinity
intensity
and there was no fire trucks on the north side and by the time the
police officer was there, I don't know if he might of called in
because there was a witness there they would have to call in an~ then
that's when, after he went to his car, then I heard the sirens from
the, from the number one fire department
first ones, I think, to show up.

of the area because of the

right down here, was the

with

IB:

Oh, right down here on Grand?

Brown:

Urn, hum, I think it was number one fire, fire one, I think it was the
number one fire trucks that came out.

IB:

And so he told you to leave.

Brown:

Yes.

I was told to leave or else I'd be arrested.

IB:

Did he ask for your name or anything

like that?

Brown:

No, he took down my license plate number.
did.
you right now, I'm telling you to leave.

That's why he would be able to arrest me.

He said, he told me he

We can come and get

IB:

But he didn't do that until after you started asking him questions?

Brown:

He did not, he did not tell me to, he didn't tell me that he would
why the fire department
arrest me until I started asking questions

•

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•

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Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 13

wasn't there and why the police weren't there and why are these
houses out in the open which.they

could of caught on fire.

IB:

Did he ask you why you were there?

Brown:

Yeah, he did and I told him I was a hobby photographer
very interesting
affiliated

for me to take pictures
with any body and I says'i no.

and he wondered

and it was
if I was

IA:

He had that, are you with a newspaper

or something?

Brown:

IB:

IA:

Yeah, he asked me if I was affiliated
sent me here.
I didn't,

He asked me who
Who, how did I, how did I know the fire was going on.

with anybody.

I looked up in the sky and I seen it.

Isn't that interesting.

I can't believe there weren't more neighbor,
neighborhood

around there.

people from the

Brown:

No.

IB:

You were the only one.

How eerie.

Brown:

IB:

Brown:

It was very eerie.

It was very eerie because that's what I

All the people that are next door or, if they

It was.
couldn't understand.
had, maybe they had called the fire department
never got in contact with the neighbors
afraid because
I had a few month old baby.
was born in July and it was that following
and she
was born July 19~h, '79 and she was only a few months old and I was
bundling

her up to, you know •••

I don't even thing, Jamie

which I don't know.

fall it happened

at that time.

I was more

I

What happened
sent them to be developed.

after, you returned

home.

You got the pictures.

You

Did you, what happened?

Did you •••

some telephone
to be developed,
and I had received telephone

I received
pictures
pictures
said, we are, they told me that they had, like investigator
wanting to know how I got the pictures.
Where the pictures
and they were demanding

calls because when I had turned in the
I had put· my name and address on, on the

calls and they wanted,

they
type,
are at

the pictures.

IB:

They actually demanded them.

I want your pictures.

Brown:

They, they, yeah, they called me up and were demanding
and I don't know who it was.

They never left a name •••

the pictures

IB:

They didn't identify themselves?

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 14

Brown:

what had happened

'em as an investigative,

They just identified
investigate
the negatives
me, it should have been the police department
and they did not identify themselves
film that I had taken after I had 'em developed
everything.

and it scared me because

as a witness

you know, to

and that they needed the pictures

and
if anybody would of contacted

and so, being a witness
and so I hid all my
I hid

and everything,

IA:

Did you just have them developed

at a local photography?

Brown:

Meijers., I think it was Meijers.

IA:

IB:

It was Meijers,okay.

That's interesting.
must of known that you had those developed

I guess, I'm wondering

how-they

got, somebody

there or something.

Brown:

Somebody must of looked through the photographs

in the store.

IA:

IB:

IA:

•

Either that or they got your name through the police who had your
license plate number •

Through your license number, that's what I'm thinking.

Yeah, that's probably

it.

Brown:

See, I'm not sure how that happened.

IB:

But at any rate, all of a sudden, did you get more than one phone
call?

Brown:

I received

a couple of phone calls and then, and that was it.

IB:

Sounded like the same person?

Brown:

No, it was a different

person.

IB:

It was?

Brown:

Different

voice.

IA:

What did you tell him?

Brown:

I told him I had nothing.

IA:

You didn't have any pictures.

Brown:

Told him I had nothing •

IB:

Did they believe you, do you think?

•

•

•

•

Sue Ellen Br<llwn
3/2/93
Page 15

Brown:

IB:

Brown:

I think that they might have believed me because the

I think that they thought I might not have the pictures and then I
hid 'em.
telephone calls stopped and that was in the, the last part was right
when I was moving out of the apartment, was the last telephone call I
received and I think that was, oh my gosh, I think that was spring
because I moved out just before the lease was up but I already paid
in advance on my rent and everything
with the apartment building and moved.

so I was all square and legal

So it was a matter of a few months.
think it was from the time you got your pictures developed till you
got your first phone call?

How long a period of time do you

It was very, it seemed like the pictures had come in my

It was about three weeks, I'd say, a month to three, three weeks to a
month.
house, I was putting 'em in these and I started receiving telephone
calls and I hid those pictures and then there was a place in the back
and
of my truck where I hid, I thought I had put all of the negatives
all the rest of the pictures in there and then I had those hidden
because actually those were, I think, the best quality pictures that
I could get out of it because of the type film.
I wasn't, I couldn't
go to the store.

I had to grab the film I had •••

IB:

What you had.

Brown:

Right.

IB:

Did you, do I remember that you were taking a photography

course?

Brown:

IB:

Brown:

Yeah, Norris Singles, I wasn't, I was in, not, not at that time but
Norris Singles back in 1970, I had a '71 Volkswagen
Chevelle station wagon and so in between that time, I was a volunteer
worker for the Northside Action Center and Norris Singles headed up
the photography
and he taught me how to do photography
through that we would gather kids up off the street and give 'em
We taught 'em trades from
something to do and teach 'em a trade.
anywhere from arts and crafts to running a restaurant
down in the
basement of the Northside Action Center and the photography
photography
the dot.

always at 7 o'clock, right on

classes were at nighttime,

and a 1973

department

and the

and

So that's how you happened to have your camera and you knew about the
lenses and you had your film because you were taking part in this
class.

Did Norris see your pictures?

Did you show them to him?

Norris never got to see my pictures.
first fire when the furniture place burned up by the Action Center,
by Northside Action Center, for a class, it happened to be during a
class we were taking so we all stepped out with all of our cameras
and whatever.

He could, 'cause a lot of the kids couldn't afford

Norris introduced me to my

• Sue Ellen Brawn

3/2/93
Page 16

cameras· so there was a couple extra cameras and we took pictures
that fire and that's,
first it reminded me of Germany.
flashed back to the war.ehouse, the furniture
took pictures
took pictures

Then I went, no, this is afire.
fire and we
building
of that, too, but Norris Singles got them 'cause he
himself.

of
you know, going at

I think,. how I recognized,

I

IB:

Did he, but he knew you took these pictures?

Brown:

I dan't think Norris Single knew I took those pictures
that was past the time that the Northside
possibly
had closed down because
was renting out the building
that, you know, just to help kids and Norris Singles donated his free
time.

for a dollar a year and things like

Action Center apparently,

That was all volunteer

I think the Northside

at all because

Action Center

work.

IB:

Was he working

for the state Journal at that time?

Brown:

He's working •••

IB:

I know he does now.

He was then, too?

•

Brown:

Yes.

At that time, I think he was in transportation •••

IB:

Oh, is that right?

Brown:

department,

yes.

IB:

Oh, now he's ••••••••••••••

Brown:

Oh.

IB:

He's a nice man.

Brown:

He's gonna criticize

me.

IB:

No, we won't show 'em to him.

Brown:

Oh, show it to him but •••

IB:

He comes down here very often, off and on and does, help ••••••• for
us

Brown:

•

No matter what it is, I'll adjust the camera to where it

Well, he knows that if I've got film I'll just grab it and use it,
you know.
needs to be taken
Norris taught me with black and white.
daughter being born so I wanted color pictures
went into the black and white plus the color and did black and white
photasof

I had color film because my
so I
of my daughter

at that time and color photos and I just

'cause I think I had 400 ASA.

I loved 400 ASA.

my daughter

•

•

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 17

'cause I would have anything

from 64 ASA, I think,
happened to have,
all the way u.p to 400 and I only had three rolls so it could of been
any sort of ASA film speed in there, you know, that I grabbed
and I
don't even know if my camera was actually,
because

really adjusted

I was •••

right

IB:

You were afraid.

Brown:

I was nervous.

IB:

I would have been, too.

Brown:

I was scared.

I was.

IB:

When you first got out there, did you, you had a sense of the fire
being in the center and not having spread as yet.

Brown:

No, it had already had spread.

IB:

Oh, okay.

Brown:

Then I heard the explo, the two explosions
didn't go off at the same time.

It was different.

on each side and they

It was boom ••.

IB:

I see, then the fire really ballooned

up.

Brown:

The second explosion

Yeah.
don't know if he heard it or if there was a call in on it or what.
I don't have a police radio or anything.
don't know.

is when the police officer

arrived and I

I

IB:

It would seem like people would, in the neighborhood
see what you saw.

would see that,

Brown:

Well, yeah, I saw it from a basement

of a apartment building.

IB:

Several blocks away.

Brown:

Yeah, and here there were people right across the street and I was
wondering •••

IB:

Where is everybody.

Brown:

Where, yeah, where is the fire department.
that time of night which was not late, really late at night •••

If it was me and being at

IB:

What was it, early evening or something?
it's dark out •

Oh, no, it had to be dark,

Brown:

It was dark but I don't think ••••

Sue Ellen Brewn
3/2/93
Page 18

IA:

IB:

IA:

IB:

Well, with the winter so •••

Oh, that's right. Winter, it would be dark •••

So it could of been around 6:30, 7 even.

Yeah, it gets dark out •••

Brown: Well, I think..,it was more close around like 9 or 10 o'clock at night.

IB:

Nine or 10 o'clock.
in that area, if that was engulfed yet or whether that spread to that
or whether there might have been fire trucks over on that side.

I wonder, over on the Baker-South Cedar corner,

Brown:

No, there was no fire trucks on either side•••

IB:

Nothing, just quiet.

Brown:

because I drove, I drove down to the one side and that's why I
decided that that would be, the south side would be a bad area to
take pictures •••

IB:

'Cause the wind was coming •••

Brown:

because the flames were comin' towards me and where I was taking
pictures ae, the flames were going up and then going to the south.

IB:

I understand.

Brown: And I, so I stayed on the north side to •••

IB:

So really, you had been all the way around that •••

Brown:

I went all the way around the block before I started taking pictures.

IB:

You went down Cedar, down Baker and back up Washington and over by
the depot so you went around that whole area.

Brown:

Yeah, I went down, well, I come down Washington and went down Baker
and went up on Cedar and then I illegally made a left hand turn over
there by •••

IB:

We'll expunge that from the record.

Brown:

That's alright. They can't get me now.

That's a long time ago.

IB:

Statute's run out •

•

•

•

•

•

•

Sue EllenB.rown
3/2/93
Page 19

Brown:

Yeah, the statute of limitations kind a freed me from that but I made
an illegal turn to get back on to that area and come around and there
was no fire trucks.

IB:

So you really had been all around that complex.

Brown:

I went all around it first before I •••

18:

That is so strange.

Brown:

took pictures and that's when, that's when all this started.
the s.preading had already, it was already spreading because I could
see the fire in, on the sides here •••

Then

18:

IA:

Like.

e__ •••••••••••

e :••••

Oh, oh, I see.

Brown:

on the sides, I could see it running on the sides.
it was before, actually before the explosions.

See, here's where

IB:

Oh, this is before and this is after, okay •

Brown:

And then, and then this is right when the explosion happened. This
started building up really big and then this explosion happened.
waited for the explosion because I had to go back inside.
went out and took a picture and that was my first shot of the, this
would be actually, this would be the south side or the west side •••

Then I

I

IB:

The west side, yeah.

Brown:

of the building and then I don't have the, the rest of the pictures
were on the east side and I did not get them but it just kept on
building but you can see by the pictures how long I was there with
those pictures because some pictures were taken out.
these because I felt that these were the best pictures representing,
you know, the fire in progress.

I had, only had

Right, right.

IB:

IA:

had a few in between but these were the

Brown:

Right, there is a lot of pictures in between that •••

IB:

You must of been there, I'm thinking at least a half hour before
anybody showed up.

Brown:

I was there, well, it took me, it had to taken me at least five or
ten minutes to get my baby and me prepared to get into the car to go
and then the driving time to find it and hitting your one way

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 20

streets, you got to go this way, then you're turning left and then
I'm turning right and then I'm turning left and then I, I wanted to
go and survey the whole surrounding
and the only way
I could do that was to bring myself back up onto Cedar and come back
around.

of the building

IB:

Right, right, exactly.

Brown:

And so I had to even go out of my way and then come, filter my way
back in on the road to be able to do it, you know, to be able to take
the pictures and decide which would be the best, how I could get
these pictures with the lens that I had grabbed •••

IB:

I think you did a good job.

Brown:

•

IB:

IA:

Which one, you know, how am I going to take these pictures
wanted to be able to see, I wanted to be able to get the pictures to
where it would show, I think this is an illegal fire.
feeling when I was there, the fire was intentionally
care now whoever comes and asks me about it because I didn't, you
know, I wasn't around when it started but I was there and nobody else
was because if, if so, these pictures would be able to tell you if
there was a fire truck in this vicinity and there wasn't because I
was back from the tracks.

set and I don't

I had the

and I

It's incredible,

isn't it.

Well, you're not the only one that's suggested that possibility.
Other people we've talked to sort of roll their eyes and go, you
,know.

IB:

I think it's a very real possibility.

Brown:

I, I kind a have, I don't know why but I kind a half have it in my
mind if General Motors didn't have something to do with it because of
the word going around that they wanted to use the property
proving grounds.

for

IA:

Wow.

This is a quick way to clear it out.

Brown:

Right.

IB:

It's like burning down an old house.
maybe even safer because it was an old, old facility, maybe even
safer than having someone in there trying to take the bricks down
and •••

It's cheaper than having to, or

Brown:

It would cost, it could cost 'em too much money to have the building
torn down •••

•

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 21

IB:

Oh, I'm sure •••

Brown:

as if to collect insurance on a burnt building.

IB:

I wish I had a couple, some of the bricks from it.
here in the Museum.

We do have 'em

Brown: "Do ya?

IB:

Yeah, in fact, the front walk that you came up and the facade on the
building, that's all Reo brick and we've got several cart loads of
'em out in back but at the time they said, anybody that, I think it
was in the paper, anybody that wants bricks from the, you know, the
factory up to a certain time can go and get 'em •••

Brown:

I remember that.

IB:

And then they found out that the people here in •••••• were trying to
create a museum and so they said, you can have all those bricks you
want if they'll be of any use to you so, and this was in May,
Mother's Day, Sue Miller who was later on to become a director,
and her husband and their children went out there and picked up
bricks and loaded 'em all day long.

she

Brown:

I've heard about that but I didn't go and collect any bricks.

IB:

Well, if you want a brick, I'll get you one.

•

Brown:

Oh, I'd love to have one.

IB:

I'll get you one before you go.

Brown:

I would love to have one.

IA:

I have one question actually that's not related to the fire but I was
noticing when you were trying to figure out when things happened, you
did by what car you had and you also said earlier about how you
always wanted to build cars.
So, I'm just really curious, you know,
where this love of cars came from 'cause normally you think about it
and I know that sounds really sexist but normally you think about it
for men.
You don't usually think about, I mean, women like nice cars, you
know, fancy cars •••

You know, that men are into cars and they're into trucks.

Brown:

Well, I got a truck out there.

I drive a truck •

IA:

•

think about ••••••••••••• or wanting to get their

•••••••••••••••••
hands dirty with cars or, it just seems different.
curious where it came from with you, if you think it came from your
dad working in car, well, it was really a truck •••

So I'm just

•

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 22

Brown:

It was basically
a tomboy for one thing and I started a savings account and, to buy my
first new car and •••

At one point, I was just a, you know, I'm

factory.

IB:

You were in high school then?

Brown:

NO, I was 10 years old when I started saving for a car.

IB:

IA:

Oh, I think that's wonderful.

I've never heard· that from anybody.

I didn't have my first car till I was 30 so it's really different
me e· e·

••••••••••••••••

for

IB:

I had to get married and divorced

and then get a car.

Brown:

Mike Denman from, up there at, up north, he' has M & M Wrecker
Mike Denman is, which we love to death, is like a brother,
my first thrill ride on Vickeryville
fast and I loved it and •••

Road, on a gravel road, real

and
he gave me

IA:

This was when you were real young?

Brown:

Yeah, and I says, I'm gonna be a race car driver.
car from the ground up.

I'm gonnabuild

my

IB:

Oh., isn' t that interesting.

Brown:

And then I went into drag racing.

IB:

You did!?

Brown:

Yes, yeah •••

IB:

You've done drag racing?

Brown:

I wat;1,yeah, I was with Al Moon Independence

Racing Team.

IB:

on, no kidding.

Brown:

And Al Moon, Dick Griffin,
don't know what they do now.
a lost track.
Shop, Roy Johnson.

Griffith,

he used to own the Go Shop, I

Since I moved out of Lansing,

I've kind
Speed

I used to be affiliated

type buyer for Johnson's

IB:

Oh, did you?

Brown:

•

The guy with the cigar in his mouth and that guy can talk, he can eat
with a cigar in his mouth.
listening

to his Las Vegas trips, too, and I, my first marriage,

He's great.

He's great.

I love

Doug

•

•

•

Sue Elle,nBrawn
3/2/93
Page 23

Hammel ink, I ended up racing cars with him and getting
team.

in the racing

IB:

There's a Pete Hammel ink, isn't there?

Brown:

I'm not sure.

I know that •••

IA:

IB:

Brown:

••••••••••••••••

that name, too.

We have.

I know that there's a George Keenan that worked over here at the
Diamond Reo and I'm not sure if he's dead or if he's alive but he
and •••
used to work over there and he married my ex-mother-in-law

IB:

So you've been around vehicles
you were very little.

and it's been part of your life since

Brown:

It's been a, only my life.
at the Fisher Body plant, I thought

I was in heaven.

I, the day, I walked

into General Motors

IB:

Is that right?

Brown:

I was in pure heaven.

I thought
my butt off.
glass.
all night long, I walked out when the day shift was walkin'

I never, I would work
If a foreman came out to me and said, Sue, we're out of

We need door glass built up, I worked that night shift plus

I built cars.

in.

IB:

Made sure they had their stock.

Brown:

And made sure they had their stock.
line and work me anywhere.
easy to me and it was, it's my first love and I think •••

Foremens

I could, I just was so, the cars came so

could pull me off the

IA:

Did you start working there after high school?
to get into the shop.

No?

It took a while

IB:

When did you hire in?

Brown:

1981, over on, that was •••

IB:

So your little girls was two or so~ething.

Brown:

A year, about a year and a half old.

IB:

And you got into the, where did you start over there?

Brown:

I started as miscellaneous
putting
inside the car and I went from trim, I've worked most of the wire

in •••••• screws, inside the car before the interior was

••••• with Gordon Shepard and I was

•

•

Sue Ellen BrGwn
3/2/93
Page 24

department, glass department.
which is a government safety job and I used to put in the safety pads
and the clip that held the windshield •••

In fact, my last job was NVSS job

IB:

Around the windshield •••

Brown:

in there and I've painted cars and •••

IB:

You've painted cars?

Brown:

Yes.

IB:

That's what my dad did.

Brown:

I worked in the paint department.

IB:

My dad did there at the Fisher Body all of his life. He loved to
talk to you.

Brown: Oh ••••

IB:

I think you had a much better paint situation than he had •

Brown:

That's when they, yeah, he did not, we, I don't think we had the lead
content in there but they made sure that when I did go up into the
paint department over at General Motors that they says, are you able
to have babies and I said, no, not any more and •••

IB:

Oh, they did?

Brown:

Yeah.

IB:

Because of the lead in the paint?

Brown:

I'm not sure why.

I'm not sure why.

IA:

That's illegal now to ask.

Brown:

Yeah, but, well, I just don't know why.

IA:

No, I know, but it's illegal now. They can't ask that.
I mean, now
the thing is if a woman can't go in there who's gonna have children,
nobody should be allowed to go in there.

Brown:

Right.

IB:

IA:

•

That's right •

It's not good for anybody.

•

•

•

Sue E.llenBrown
3/2/93
Page 25

Brown:

And so I was a woman that would not be able to have children
so •••

anymore

IB:

They felt it was safe •••

Brown:

For me to go in •••

IB:

you wouldn't

be having any medical

claims.

Brown:

Oh, well, we've had explosions

over there.

IA:

Oh, gosh.

Brown:

Yeah.

I got blown right out of the paint booth.

IB:

In the paint department?

Brown:

I got blown right out of the paint booth.

Yeah.
system stopped and they, instead of having the paint department
of open, now it's kind a closed in and tunneled
through there •

The ventilation

now.

You should go

kind

IB:

Is it?

Brown:

Yeah, and we were inside Qf booths and what I was doing was, I was
spraying around the door jambs and I was spraying the floor and I was
spraying the sides and I was putting the heat treatment,
over the top of a heat treatment
my gun every second car instead of waiting
once an hour because
gun cleaned that you would have spurts comin' out and it wouldn't
a smooth paint job.

for the guy come around
I felt if you didn't have your

that was in there and I would clean

if you didn't,

painting

be

IB:

Makes sense to me.

Brown:

And you have to have a rhythm and you have to be smooth with that or
else you will have runs.

IA:

Did you have to wear like a space suit when you were working?

Brown:

Um, no, no safety equipment,
equipment.
bandanna,
safety equipment.

We made our own safety
around my head and I'd put a
because we had a hard time over at Fisher Body getting

I would wear a bandanna

had at all.

IB:

You did?

Brown:

My foreman died because of a dip tank and I refused the

Oh, yeah.
job.
work the change over.

We had a three day change over and they asked me if I·wanted to

I'd get extra money and I always worked the

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 26

change overs and I says, well, sure. What are we gonna do, you know.
Bea
short change over, well, why not work it, you know, and get the
extra bucks.

IB:

Sure, time and a half.

Brown:

Well, you got to go down into a, like a tank and clean it out and I
says, well, where's my safety harnesses
says, none and three men died that weekend.

and everything

else and he

IB:

Were there fumes in there like methane

fumes •••

Brown:

That killed them.
foreman
Ward was his name and he died trying to save his two workers
down there.

was a black
'cause there's a bunch of Wards in there and but ah, William
he sent

Yes, Mr. Ward was,he

It killed

'em.

IB:

Oh, my.

•

Brown:

IB:

And one went to the hospital
body absorbed the poison.
two guys were.
they shut down the line for one minute of silence and then we were
back to work.

I just knew that, my gosh, my foreman died and then

I think pretty much, I don't know who the

and I think he lived maybe a day.

His

I guess I'm wondering,
your pictures,
gone or •••

when your father heard about the fire and saw

what, did he make any comments

about the Reo being

Brown:

No.

He •••

IB:

Of course, it had been closed anyway for say eight years.

Brown:

He goes, oh, ·my gosh and, you know, oh, you· know.
Dad's not very well with, you know, talking

Right.
that was it.
know, like the words and all but I think, I think there was some
thought
thought went into it but a reaction
hard to •••••••••••

If you'd look at his eyes, you could see some

off from management

into it.

is really

And then
about, you

IB:

Is that right?

Brown:

Yes.
are.

Management
They're kind a real cold.

is real hard to figure out.

,

Not really, but they

IB:

A little separate

from, separated ••••

Brown:

They're separated,
separate themselves

they have to, yeah, it's their job, you know, to
in the union and to

from the employees

actually

•

Sue Ellen Brown
3/2/93
Page 27

get their paperwork
from ••••

done and so they kind of separate themselves

IA:

Did your sisters, you had sisters, right?

Brown:

Urn, hum.

IA:

Did they have the same kind of interest in cars that you had?

Brown:

No, no.

IA:

They did different

things?

Brown:

They're, yeah, I have one sister that lives out in California.
I'd never seen Sibyl.

Yeah.
We're all adopted so we're not blood related.
I never seen the first girl that was adopted into the family.
moved out when, she found her real brother out in California
was about 16 years old and then Ruth Thomas, my folks brought her
into the home because she was from an abused family and she kept on
being over at mom and dad's house so the woman came over and said,
you can have her and so Ruth was in our family.
Ruth.
sure where Jo was adopted.
or else born in Ypsilanti
Detroit.

The two girls had left before Jo or I were adopted and I'm not

I think she was adopted out of Ypsilanti

area and I was born in Wayne County,

I never got to meet

She
when she

IA:

And she's the one that's in California?

Brown:

JoAnne, I don't know where she's at.

I'm not sure where she's at.

IB:

So you're kind of the last •••

Brown:

I'm the last of •••

IB:

Are you the one that's closer to your parents,

it sounds like.

Brown:

Yeah, I see them, I'm only about 20 minutes
moved up north, I'm only about 20 minutes,
them and I swore, I wanted always move 20 minutes closer to Phoenix,
Arizona and ended up the other way, some how, because the price of
the house sounded real good.

from them now since I
I'm 20 minutes north of

IB:

And you may get to do that some day, you never know.

Brown:

Oh, I plan on it.
golf, PGA or whatever they call it •

I hope that I can get my husband into the senior

IA:

Oh, he's a golfer.

•

•

•

•

•

•

Sue Ellen S.rown
3/2/93
P.age 28

Brown:

Well, he likes to golf and that's always been his dream sol
when he retired, we'd get a bigger, heavier duty truck and get a
fifth wheel and grab his golf clubs and let him go to town.

figured

IA:

Do you still work down at the •••

Brown:

My job was taken away from me by the local 602 and by management.
This is a sad story.
There was a, a petition being passed around the
factory to try and fire a co-worker and because of the General Motors
rules and the local 602 rules, that is totally, you can't, that's not
a right thing to do.

That's the wrong thing to do.

IA:

Why did they want to fire this person?

Brown:

This person was a safety hazard in the shop but you should go through
the safety •••

IA:

Right, you should go through the channels, yeah.

Brown:

Go through the channels and they weren't going through the channels
and they called Tim Shade a asshole on paper •••

IB:

Was he, he was, who was, what was his position?

Brown:

Tim Shade was a material driver.

IB:

Material driver.

Brown:

He kept on messin' up.
would go allover.

IB:

Was this on purpose?

He'd tip over my bench on me and my tools

Brown:

Yeah, yeah, and the, Lansing BOC didn't care about it, you know.
They put him back in trucking school or whatever but I wouldn't
a petition and, because they wanted your name and social security
number and I felt that if this was a very illegal petition,
I was not
going to sign it and I said no and Beverly Taylor, Gary Walker, Julie
Houser and Charlie Kaiser all beat me up and I am on permanent
disability
because Local 602, Ron Perry was zone and they wouldn't even give me
a union call or a committee call because it's automatic that if
somebody comes up and beats you up, you've got a week out the door.
I never got back in because I wouldn't sign the petition.

and will never be able to get back into the shop again

sign

IS:

And the union wanted this person •••

Brown:

The union, no, the union, the union would rather have him in there
than somebody that is actually legal and in the right and doing their
job and that's why General Motors is falling apart today is because

Sue Ellen 8~,()wn
3/2/93
Page 29

like, well,

h.QW they're,

Qf
five times from the plant.
He's back inside the plant.
can't get back to work.

we got Larry Johnson.
The last one was on an embezzlement.
All I did was say no to a petition

He's been fired

and I

IB:

Which you didn't feel was fair.

Brown:

It was an illegal petition.

IB:

It was illegal and you didn't want to be a part of it.

Brown:

No, I didn't because
put my name and social security number down there.

I felt that they could come back and sue me if I

IB:

Oh, I see, so you were protecting

yourself

in a way, too.

Brown:

Right, and then Gary Walker and Julie Howers and Beverly Taylor and
Charlie Kaiser, Charlie Kaiser was standing
gettin' beat up by all these people.

and watching

while I was

•

IB:

And nobody did anything to help you?

Brown:

Management,
was my foreman.

management

and a line worker, this was my foreman, one

IB:

And they did nothing to help you?

The union didn't try to help you?

Brown:

No, I paid union dues and nobody helped me.

IB:

Did you go to the union to ask •••

Brown:

I asked for help and they would not help me.
every time I, 'cause I was, my back was damaged,
into physical
physical
back because they wouldn't

pay for my medical

bills.

therapy, General Motors would pull me out of my

therapy and I ended up having to pay General Motors

$18,000

They wouldn't

let me,

every time I went

IA:

Do you think there's some other reason that they didn't want you to
be there besides the petition?
excuse?

Do you think it might of been an

Brown:

IA:

•

I don't know why.
I say, foremenswould
Socier had me, George Holland,
Mullens

is the one that •••

I was a good worker.

I was there every day.

Like

grab me off the line and carry me on, Charlie

Ron Siebold or, yeah, Siebold and Bill

that there was, that they should have,
Right, and I'm not suggesting
you know, that there was anything wrong with your work and everything
but maybe they just didn't want •••

Sue Ellen&rG;wn
3/2/93
Page 31

inside the plant down in body shop.
tin inside of the forman's (end side 1)

A guy was throwing the tobacco

•

•

•

,

(