Frances Barnhart 3-12-92 Page 1 IA: Interview with Frances Barnhart on March 12, 1992, Thursday afternoon, 2:00 p.m. at her home at 555 Norman Street in Lansing, 48910. Testing, interview with Frances Barnhart. • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 1 IB: This is Shirley Bradley and Lisa Fine. We are at the home of Frances Barnhart, 555 Norman Street, Lansing, Michigan and we are going to be talking to her about her memories of the Reo Motor Car Company. And this is March 9, 1993. our interviews by getting some background information about the individuals who did the Reo. And actually you were already starting to tell us a little bit about urn, all the different people in your family or your husband's family that worked there. Um, you weren't from Lansing then? Were you from .... Okay we usually just start Barnhart: Oh yes, I've lived in Lansing all my life. IB: Okay, so you were born here? Barnhart: Oh yeah. IB: But not in this particular neighborhood. Barnhart: No, not in this particular neighborhood. No. IB: Where did you grow up in Lansing? • Barnhart: Over on Bement Street. IB: Okay. husband? Did any of your family work at the Reo as well or just your Barnhart: Not my immediate family. IB: Not your immediate family. Barnhart: I had an uncle that worked for Reo years ago. IB: Okay. Barnhart: When they were making cars. During the Depression when they had the Reo clUbhouse and I used to come over there to the movies. IB: As a child you did that? Barnhart: As a child, yes. IB: Yeah. still went over to the Reo to participate in the So even though your father, mother and so forth didn't, you Barnhart: Some of the people, the men in the neighborhood worked Oh yeah. at the Reo and, of course, they had passes to get info the clubhouse, so we would kind of gang up and get in there . • • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 2 IB: Sneak in? You aren't the first person who has told us that. they snuck in to see the movies. Barnhart: We weren't supposed to be there, but we got in anyway. IB: Ah huh, ah huh. Um, and you went to school in Lansing too? Barnhart: Ah huh. IB: Which high school did you go to? Barnhart: Oh I went to ah, Pattengill IB: Okay. Barnhart: That 's a junior high. IB: Oh, Pattengill, okay. Barnhart: (can't hear, have volume all the way up) IB: Okay. Barnhart: And the Old Central. IB: And then, oh. Ah huh. And when did you, did you start working at Reo after school or were there some other jobs in between? Barnhart: Oh I started working at Reo in 1942. IB: Okay. (loud hum) During the war? Barnhart: Right. IB: Okay. Um, what did you do before you worked at Reo? started working there? Before you Barnhart: I worked at Kresges. IB: Behind the counter? Barnhart: Well yeah, just all of it. Back then you were all over. I was in charge of different departments. IB: Oh really? Barnhart: At different times. IB: Ah huh, okay. • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 3 Barnhart: And ah, I worked there for about eleven years. IB: Okay, and you started working at Reo in 1942. Barnhart: Right. IB: Why did you, did you shift because of the war? to work in the defense industry? Because you wanted Barnhart: To make more money. IB: To make more money. you would be making at Kresge. (laughter) Okay. Alright. A lot more than Barnhart: Rd ght; . IA: Yeah, it must have been quite a change going from Kresge's ddrne store to the factory. What impressed you at first when you first walked into the factory? • Barnhart: Well, it ah, of course, having worked in the dollar store and being familiar with selling tools, hardware and things of that nature it did not scare me so much because I was familiar with machinery and handling the tools, but of course, they were a lot much bigger than anything that I had seen. And ah, so ah, and, of course, when I first went to Reo, I did when you first went in there why you went and you did bench work like burring IB: Burring? Barnhart: all the small parts had to be sanded by hand or .... take the burrs off from the ..... IB: IA: Just to rub them down. Little rough places or Barnhart: I worked there for a while and then they put me on machines. of the time that I ah, from 1942 until end of the war in 1945, I worked on machines. Most IB: IA: Starting at burring and then on machines. What department were you in? Were in in the same department the entire time? Barnhart: I was in the Navy Department. IA: In the Navy Department. • • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 4 IB: IA: Oh the Navy. That's where they made bomb fuses. Barnhart: Right. IA: And so that's what you worked on? Barnhart: That's what I worked on. the shop. I worked on just about every machine in IA: Did you find it difficult to run the machines? like it? It doesn't sound Barnhart: No, it didn't bother me. IA: They gave you a training period? Barnhart: Well, not too much. Here is the machine you work on. IB: So but did somebody show you want to do? Barnhart: Somebody would show you what to do, but after that why there' wasn't any of them that was that difficult for me. one machine that I refused to work on. There was only IA: What was that? Barnhart: And that was a threading machine. they were like cylinders and you put the threads on the outside of this machine and that scared me. And that was threading, well IA: It did? Barnhart: Because I could see my fingers IB: Fingers going through it? Oh dear. Barnhart: That machine, I refused to work on. IA: It was dangerous, you had to put your hands. in some of the working parts? Barnhart: No, but it is scary. IA: Oh. Had other people been hurt on that machine? Barnhart: Not that I know of, but I just had a fear of that machine . IA: Sure. • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 5 Barnhart: Of course, in my working there I had seen .... IB: IA: Accidents. Had you really? Barnhart: Yeah. IA: Were there a lot of women in the department with you? Barnhart: Oh yes, most all of them were women. Because the men were gone. IB: So you had a group of ladies that you worked with? Barnhart: Most, well not all the time. I worked with a lot of men. When I was working on the machines, And in groups I would work with men. IB: IA: Sometimes with men, yeah. Can I just back up a second. I was just curious how you picked the Reo to work in, because obviously there was other war work going on in town? Barnhart: Well to tell you the truth, why because my brother-in-law was the head of the personnel department. IA: Your brother-in-law was the head of the personnel at Reo? Barnhart: Right. IA: What was his name? Barnhart: Theodore Lamond. IA: how do you spell that last name? Barnhart: Lam 0 n d. IA: IB: Just like it sounds. And Lamond, so he was the head of personnel? Barnhart: Right. IB: So you figured you had an in. And you Barnhart: Why he told me they were hiring down there, so I went down . IB: Okay. And you didn't have any trouble getting in. • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 6 Barnhart: I didn't have any, I had to wait my turn, but which was 24 hours. IA: Oh really, what did you have to go and sit in the personnel office? Barnhart: No, I just went in in the morning and had my physical or it really wasn't 24 hours. They said can you come back at 4:00 and go to work. IB: Wow. And they gave you a physical there? Barnhart: Right. IB: And the first day Barnhart: Well most of .itwas there. And then you had to go downtown to the, I think it was Dr. DeVries office for part of it. But ah, most of it was done at the hospital. IB: Ah huh. Barnhart: IB: Was he the company doctor, that Dr. DeVries? Barnhart: I think so, yeah. IB: And you were familiar with Reo already because you had gone Barnhart: Oh yeah, but it was my first experience of ever being in a shop. IB: In a shop at all? Barnhart: Yeah. And that was a little bit scary. IB: Do you remember how much you made when you first went in? Barnhart: Yeah, 65 cents an hour. IB: Okay. And Barnhart: And after three months then you got 75 cents an hour. IB: Ah huh and how much was that in comparison to what you were getting at Kresge when you left? Barnhart: Ah, IS: You don't remember exactly how much you got at Kresge huh. • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 7 Barnhart: Yes, $18.50 a week. IB: IA: Oh okay, so I'd have two figure it out, okay. And that was for a 40 hour week at Kresges? Barnhart: More than 40, we worked Saturdays. IB: Oh is that right? Like Monday through Saturday. Barnhart: Well towards the end they got or ..... would give us a day off, you now, 1 think 48 hours. worked 54 hours a week for a lot less than that. During the Depression we (can't hear) IB: 1 see. And you felt fortunate, actually probably that you had, had that job. Barnhart: Very, very fortunate. Anybody that had a job during the Depression was very fortunate. IB: Yeah. you still single? Now when you worked at Kresge were you married yet or were Barnhart: we leave my personal life out of it. IB: If you'd like. Barnhart: Okay. IB: Sure, no problem. helping to support a family or you were just on your own, but if you don't want to answer that it is fine. The only reason I'm curious is that if you were Barnhart: You turn that off and I can tell you. IB: Okay. Barnhart: But I don't want, that is not for publication (Tape off.) IA: Shirley and I are both very curious about urn,what it was like for women to work in the shop in Reo during World War II. And we haven't found too many people like yourself who were there, so urn, that's why Shirley was asking what it was like when you first entered there, how did you feel about the difference between working in a shop and working in a, you know, a place like Kresge. Urn,what your relationships was like, what it was like how the men treated you when you walked in. Because obviously women weren't So it was a new kind of a thing . there before. • • • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 8 Barnhart: Oh I never could say that ah, I was ever treated with disrespect. IA: Okay. Barnhart: Because they had to depend on the women to do the work and so I urn, well it is just like everything. the way you want it to, but if I had anything to say they know about it and no because I'll tell you the truth it was harder working with wo~en than it was. ........ don't make me out a . Um, it was harder to work with the women than it was men, I think, Everything doesn't always go IA: With men? Because it was just business. Barnhart: I was, they treated me with . IA: Ah huh, ah huh, that's good. Barnhart: And many times I would be the only woman working with four or five men. IA: Ah huh, and that wasn't ever a problem? Barnhart: But I had to hold up my end of it. IA: IB: Right. You couldn't be asking for help, you needed Barnhart: Oh no. favoritism as far as I was concerned. If you couldn't do the job, you didn't, there was no IA: Did ah, were there times when some of the women just couldn't do it and were send out of the department or do you recall? Are most of the women that worked there were able to cut the mustard so-to- speak? Barnhart: Most of them ah, from my viewpoint they were, there was enough work there that they could find something for somebody to do. IA: To do. Barnhart: Because if they couldn't do anything more than inspection work which was just sitting down and checking parts, why anybody could do that. Because they had the gauges and everything to work with and but now with me on the machines, why lots of times I had to do my own setup work and IA: Oh you did. • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 9 Barnhart: So, because it was something that I was interested in machines and having w~rked selling hardware and selling ah, tools, it was not foreign to me. When they talked about different kinds of tools, I knew what they were talking about. IA: Did you have to go get your own stock to work on this machine? Barnhart: No most of the time the stockmen brought the stock to the machine. IA: So you just went in and your stock was there and you started in. You had a production figure every hour, did you? Barnhart: Well toward the end, when I first started working there we worked ah as a day rate, hourly rate IA: Oh. Barnhart: and then they put in piece work. IA: They did? Barnhart: So every job was priced . IA: Was that because you changed job or they just changed the way that they paid? Barnhart: They changed the whole system. IA: They changed the system. Barnhart: To increase production they, that was my op1n10n anyway that by putting it on piece work they could get more p.roductLon, IA: Because obviously the more pieces you could turn out, the more you would make at the end of the week. Barnhart: Right. IA: And you could make more money that way if you worked harder too. Barnhart: Right. But you hadn't dare make turn in too much or they'd cut the rates down. IA: Oh. So did you discuss Barnhart: No they set a time IA: Efficiency expert . Barnhart: Right. • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 10 IB: And nobody likes that do they? Barnhart: They send somebody in and retime your job if they thought that you were goofing off too much. the restroom or too much time to visit or too much time away from the job, they knew it and they'd have somebody come in and retime your job for you. why you could Because they figured if you had that much time, If you had too much time to spend at . IA: Do,you remember who you worked for, who your supervisor was? Barnhart: Hum. IA: Or the people that Barnhart: I can't, I couldn't tell you. IA: That's alright. I was just curious. Barnhart: If I heard their names, why but to, um, I had some real good bosses and I had some ... IA: You did. Barnhart: But most as I say most of them were . IA: Did you have to wear a special protective clothing, did you wear a badge? Barnhart: Oh yeah, we all had badges and ah, we all, all the women had to wear hair nets and ah, because I had at one point I was on the safety committee and that was part of my job. anything extra or anything for it, but in every group they'd have someone appointed to watch out for the safety of other people and I would have to see that they kept or had their hair nets on. I didn't get IA: For the electricity the static electricity? Barnhart: Right. And you could not wear gloves. IA: Oh really? Barnhart: Because, especially you could wear gloves if you were doing inspection work, but on the machines you could not wear gloves because I know from my own personal experience I was working on a job and I had gloves on and the glove got caught in the drill press and I . IB: Oh dear. • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 11 IA: And you had your hand cut. Barnhart: Yeah, and ah, so ah, that's why you could not wear IB: It is dangerous. Barnhart: very dangerous because in just a split second why a drill going at that high rate of speed to catch a thread or anything on those gloves and chu, they'd be gone. IA: How about jewelry, you had to take off your jewelry? Barnhart: Oh you couldn't wear jewelry. IA: Right. for the sparks? And ah, did you have to wear special things on your feet Barnhart: No . IA: Nothing on'your feet. Okay, because I've seen . Barnhart: Everybody wore urn,you couldn't wear a lot of loose clothing. IA: Yeah, overalls or coveralls that kind of thing. Barnhart: Yeah, slacks and blouses. IA: That's when women started wearing slacks more. Barnhart: Right. IA: Wasn't that? Before that it was housedresses. Barnhart: That's really done away with the housedresses. IA: It was the beginning. anything like that? Did you have to wear steel toed shoes or Barnhart: Ah not when I worked there, but I guess later. Of course, our work, the work in our department was not really that, they were mostly small pieces. IA: So you didn't have to worry something big and heavy falling on your foot. Barnhart: That's right. But I guess later on, they had to wear safety shoes and they and when I worked there, they didn't have to wear safety glasses, but I guess later they had to. IA: Or any kind of ear protection, earplugs or anything for noise? Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 12 Barnhart: I never had anything, not that I know of. IB: What about the union, did you have to join the union? Barnhart: Oh yes. After three months, after three, I think it was three months you had to join the union. Which was good .... ah, people today in spite of what the union is criticized for would not have what they have today if it were not for the unions. that they IA: Were there any grievances or troubles or anything that you participated in with respect to the union or was it just simply a matter of paying your dues and Barnhart: One time we went, they went on strike, but this was not during the war, this was after IA: After the war. Barnhart: Right. IA: Was that the wildcat strike, there was one in '46 or '47? Was that the one? Barnhart: Yeah, I think so. IA: Okay. Barnhart: No it was um, after that. IA: It was even after that, okay. Barnhart: Well it was about, it was probably about '47. IA: Okay. Barnhart: Yeah, because that was when I was working in the lawn mower department, after the war. IA: Okay. Barnhart: But during the war we didn't have any. IA: Any grievances or um, reasons to contact the union about anything that happened to you in the shop or anything like that? Barnhart: IA: Nothing like that. • • • • • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 13 Barnhart: No any problems that I had all I had to do was go to the foreman, I could work it out. IA: With the foreman? Not even the steward or the committee member or anything like that. Barnhart: Oh there were times when you would talk to them, but I As I said any real serious problems, if I had anything Right. never had. to say ... to the boss IA: What about the working conditions, did you have adequate place to have your lunch, bathroom facilities, what was just the, was it Barnhart: Oh they had a big restroom. IA: For women? Barnhart: Oh yeah. IA: Oh. Did they make that new for the women coming in for the war? Barnhart: I think so because I remember them remodeling . IA: Okay. Barnhart: No they had a place for women for restroom and a place for women to eat. IA: Was it away from your work area? Barnhart: Oh yes~ Well it was yes it was on the second floor. We worked on the first floor. Well the second floor during the war was used for, that's where they assembled bomb fuses. I'm not familiar with that. I never worked up there. IA: Were there women up there? Barnhart: Oh yes. IA: There were women, it was all women? Barnhart: Ah huh, that's where my sist;erworked up there. IB: Oh your sister worked up there. Barnhart: Ah huh. IA: The Navy Department in relationship to where it was in the building, would that have been say the Washington Baker area? • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 14 Barnhart: It was in the 6 and 700 block on, it was from Baker Street, that whole building. building used to be. Washington was the Navy'Department. and 700 building. lawn mower department. Well it was down to the where the old office The first building there on facing Those were the Navy. And then later it was the Those two buildings it was 6 IA: Oh the lawn mower department later went in to what had been the Navy Department. Barnhart: Right. IA: Oh. Barnhart: We were on we were off for about a year. IA: Oh. Barnhart: And ah, then they started up the lawn mower department and ah, • IA: IB: then most of us, well I guess anybody that worked in the Navy Department according to their seniority was called back to work and 'ah,I was one of them and worked in the lawn mower department until rhey sold it to the Motor Wheel. Motor Wheel. Um, Can I just ask one thing ..... Motor Wheel. the ages of the women who worked during the war. people that we've talked to were UDl, very young, in their teens. Um, I'm curious about Because the only Barnhart: Most of them, we had a few of oh it was a very few of ah, older women that had worked at the Reo before the war and then for a period of time they did not work and then, of course, starting when the Navy Department started up, why they called them IA: They didn't work during the Depression? Barnhart: They didn't. IA: They did, they were out during the Depression? are saying? Is that what you Barnhart: Well like most men or women that worked during the Depression if they got Qne or two days a week, why they were IA: I see and then they got called back. Barnhart: Yeah . IA: When the production started. • • Frances Barnhart 3/9/93 Page 15 Barnhart: Yeah. IA: Um, in different types of things probably. women in Reo before were in upholstery and wiring and Because a lot of the Barnhart: But they were WD, some of them were working on machines and There wasn't too many though. Yeah. some of them were working on Most of them were, well let's see forties , Well I was in my IA: Oh I would have guessed a lot younger than that. Okay. Barnhart: I'm 84 now. IA: IB: IA: You surprise me. We didn't expect that. Oh my goodness. IB:• IA: IB: IA: I thought she was going to say ... Yeah, (laughter) I was thinking someplace along the late 60s or .~. Oh my goodness. During the war did they have, do you remember bond drive, war bond drives? Did they come through the factory Barnhart: They had bond drives, but I don't remember too much about them. IA: I was just wondering if they just aut'Omatically expected you and deduced the bond from your Barnhart: Oh yeah, we all bought, or to my knowledge at least, I did and I think most everybody did had bond deductions from their paycheck. IA: Like one a month or some such thing? Barnhart: Yeah, so much every payday was taken out IA: Oh okay. Barnhart: • And that was just automatic and then when you get a for bonds. bond paid for why they'd send it to you. That's a go0