Doug Sleep discusses his career at REO Motor Car Company and Diamond REO Trucks, Inc. 6/22/2004 Shirley Bradley: Here we go again. Douglas Sleep: Okay. Shirley Bradley: I hope we haven’t lost anything. We were just saying that Mr. Sleep worked in the export department, just in case that thing screwed up and, uh, he helped block the military trucks onto the flatbed railroad cars for export. Okay, let’s see, so… Douglas Sleep: There were, there were, I didn’t do this but there were other people in the export department that would take a regular commercial truck and tear it completely apart, put them in huge boxes like an 8 x 8 box. You know, 1 would have to be big enough at least for the cab because they’d take the cab off. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: They’d take it all apart as much as they could take apart. Take the rails and wheels off and they’d box them all up and ship them to foreign countries. Shirley Bradley: [0:45] Everything went in 1 box but it was…? Douglas Sleep: Well, several boxes. Shirley Bradley: Oh, several boxes for a truck. Douglas Sleep: Several boxes. They’d tear’m down and get’m in small boxes or as big a box as they could… Shirley Bradley: Uh-huh. Douglas Sleep: …that they could still ship and they might be 10 x 10 and the rails had to be shipped separate because they had to leave the frame together. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: Other than that, they’d tear everything off from it they could, the wheels, the brakes, everything that they could get off there, then it would be shipped. And they were all right-hand drive trucks that, that were going to foreign countries. Shirley Bradley: Oh, foreign countries. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Gee, you know, I’m thinking of people receiving them over there, I hope they knew how to put’m together. Douglas Sleep: Well… Shirley Bradley: [Inaudible 1:19]. Douglas Sleep: They would get quite a few, so they must have had… Shirley Bradley: They must have known. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: [1:23] And I imagine were there any representatives from REO Truck Division that were over there? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, they must have had some people in that part of the countries or other countries that were selling them, yeah. Shirley Bradley: Kind of could be the go-to person. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. They were custom-made trucks for particular jobs. Shirley Bradley: Oh, I see. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And we had pretty good business in there. They’d probably tear down a truck, this is just off the top of my head… Shirley Bradley: Mm-hm. Douglas Sleep: …but I would say every week they’d probably tear a truck down and ship it out. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: Box it up and ship it out. Shirley Bradley: It’s interesting. Build it up and tear it down. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. They had to put it together, test it and drive it, and then they’d tear it apart and box it up and send it overseas. Shirley Bradley: I wonder how many of those arrived, they probably all arrived in great condition. Douglas Sleep: I would assume so. Shirley Bradley: Boxed… Douglas Sleep: But I would have no way of knowing that. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Boxed up that well, I would think so. [2:09] Um, so from the export department you went to…? Douglas Sleep: Service Department 88. Shirley Bradley: [2:16] In Building 88? Douglas Sleep: No. Department 88. Shirley Bradley: Department 88. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: [2:21] And what did you do there? Douglas Sleep: Well, the service department was a department where they, if somebody needed parts for their trucks, they’d order the parts and we would procure them and, and box them up, whatever, however they needed to be boxed or packaged or whatever. We’d package’m and ship’m to the dealer who would then sell. And my job for the most part, I worked with an old, Charlie [Gillespie 2:46] was his name. He was an older fellow and, uh, he just did his own thing and nobody bothered him. Einar Johnson was the supervisor. Shirley Bradley: [2:56] Mynard? Douglas Sleep: Einar. Shirley Bradley: Oh. I’m sorry. Ein maybe. Douglas Sleep: A-r, I believe. Shirley Bradley: A-r, Einar, oh, Einar, oh, sounds like a nice German name. And his last name was… Douglas Sleep: Johnson. Shirley Bradley: Johnson. Oh. [chuckle] So it may be Swedish. Douglas Sleep: I’m not sure. Shirley Bradley: I’m not sure either, but. Douglas Sleep: But Charlie I worked with him for a month or 2 and, and he took care of boxing up all the engines and transmissions and he’d custom make the boxes for each individual part that was going out or transmission or motor. But the majority of the time I spent I was sent out in the shop to locate the parts and I would bring them back. They’d give us tickets indicating how many parts you needed and you had to go out and find’m and some of them were pretty difficult to find. Shirley Bradley: [3:41] Oh, they were? Why was that? Douglas Sleep: Well, they weren’t parts that were used an awful lot because they were older vehicles in some cases, so… Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: You had to spend some time. You had to get, it took a knack to get the handle on how to do it. You had to go back to inventories and find out maybe where the part was inventoried and see if it was still laying in that particular spot. 90% of it was pretty easy to find but there were problems finding some of them. Shirley Bradley: Now these were people that had trucks and needed a new part for it or a dealer that needed… Douglas Sleep: Right. Just like you to a Chevy dealer and say you need a new antenna for your car or something. Shirley Bradley: Oh, okay. Douglas Sleep: So we’d find the parts for them and send them, send them to the dealer and then the dealer would sell them. That was… Shirley Bradley: That was the way it went. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Um, let’s see. [4:27] From service department you went to…? Douglas Sleep: I went to maintenance department. Shirley Bradley: Maintenance. Douglas Sleep: Gosh, I can’t remember the number of the maintenance department now that I spent 3, 4 years there. Shirley Bradley: Oh, that’s okay. [4:39] Um, who did you work for there? Douglas Sleep: Uh, let’s see. Who was it? Oh gosh. I can see his, oh, he was an old timer. I can see his face and see that hat he wore but I… Shirley Bradley: [4:56] He wore a special hat maybe? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, well, he had the old felt hat type thing. Shirley Bradley: Oh, like something out of the 30s. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: And he wore it every day. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. He, majority of the maintenance department was skilled trades and we were just a small part of it. There was only like 4 of us that were laborers and all the rest of them were skilled trades… Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: …electricians, plumbers, and stuff. And we would assist the carpenters, maybe we’d help them pour cement, or maybe the painters help them clean a surface, or the millwrights we might help them by handling some of the steel or helping them. Well, we dug a lot of holes let’s put it that way for the, for the concrete and for repair work for the plumbers and stuff, so. Shirley Bradley: In the building, in the complex. Douglas Sleep: In the building and on the, on the property outside. If a main was broken, a water main was broken, we’d fix that. We’d do the digging anyway and the plumbers would do the fixing, but. And we repaired a lot of floors. There were a lot of wood floors. Every time it rained, the floors would bubble up, they’d swell up and bubble up and we’d have to tear them apart and take a hatchet and chip the parts down and re-fix the floors. Shirley Bradley: Oh my gosh. [chuckle] Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Did a lot of air hammer work. Shirley Bradley: [6:10] Did you? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: That would be on the floors or on the…? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, on the floors, yeah. If you had something that had to be replaced or going to do some more cement work maybe in the pressroom or whatever or if they were going to put a post in someplace, we’d [inaudible 6:22] the post ourselves but skilled tradesmen have to do that. But if they ran short on millwrights or something, they’d assign us to work with the millwright or a plumber, so. Shirley Bradley: [6:30] Now what does a millwright do? I’m a little puzzled. I know what a plumber does. Douglas Sleep: That’s what my son is at GM. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: A millwright is like a carpenter only he uses steel. They would build any, any assembly lines, any lines that carried parts. They would design them… Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: …and put them together. If they had rollers on them, they’d attach the rollers. But they, they designed the steel and put the steel up and have it welded together, so they’re kind of the construction people inside the plant. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: Anything, if they had to have a big piece of machinery [inaudible 7:05] a millwright would build the machinery, so they were the heavy construction guys inside the plant. On the outside you’d see them walking on the, on the building just you could see the steelworkers that’s basically what a millwright is. Shirley Bradley: Oh, okay. Douglas Sleep: But… Shirley Bradley: Oh, well, that clears it up for me. Douglas Sleep: But they do a lot of different things inside the plant besides just doing the construction because there’s not a lot of construction in most plants. But if they changed the line, they’d redesign the line and then they’d put it up, so we would help them with that from time to time. Shirley Bradley: It sounds like, and as I recall, the plant, of course, was very old. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: The building itself was very old. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: And I, I’ve heard stories about the wooden floors that were soaked with oil and… Douglas Sleep: Right. And that’s where we would repair them if it rained, if, you know, the gutters ran over and the rain came in on the plant floors, they’d swell up. They might, they might get 4, 5 feet high. Shirley Bradley: [7:54] Is that right? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Oh my goodness. Douglas Sleep: I mean it might only be one spot about 15 feet... Shirley Bradley: Mm-hm. Where the rain was coming in. Douglas Sleep: …yeah, 15 feet long and, and 10 feet wide. Shirley Bradley: I’m picturing people trying to work at their production line or their machine or whatever… Douglas Sleep: Well, yeah. Shirley Bradley: …and the rain is coming in on them. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. It didn’t rain a lot in the places where there was machinery and stuff, let’s put it that way. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: I mean they took care of that stuff right away. Shirley Bradley: The roof was different there. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, but there was a lot of, there was a lot of area in the plant so any area that was open where they got rain, we’d take care of that. Shirley Bradley: It was a very… Douglas Sleep: A lot of times if it got too bad with the floors, they’d just tear them out and throw cement on the floors. Shirley Bradley: [8:30] Oh really? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: [8:31] They could do that? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. They’d just tear a big chunk of the area out. If they were having problems with rain in an area, they’d just pull it out. Shirley Bradley: [8:38] The factory was all on 1 level all the whole entire complex do you think, Washington, Baker, Cedar? Douglas Sleep: Hm. Shirley Bradley: [8:45] I mean it wasn’t 2-story was it, or was it? Douglas Sleep: There were, there were different building where they had stories, yes. Shirley Bradley: Oh, there were? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. The majority, all of production basically was on 1 story for the most part. There would be some welding like up in 43A which was the second floor. And then there were several places for storage, all the storage areas were, let’s see, 3 floors I think is as high as it went… Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: …1303, 1302, 1301. Shirley Bradley: Okay. Douglas Sleep: But all the storage areas were up on the second or third floors. Not a lot of production except on the cab line was up on the second floor as I recall. Shirley Bradley: It’s interesting. I never thought about that before. Douglas Sleep: And the cabs would float down, not float down but they’d be on an assembly line. Shirley Bradley: [9:25] There was a ramp or something? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Assembly line like I described where they would build a line overhead and they’d be on a rail and come right down into the… Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: …main production line. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Interesting. My mother worked there too and my dad at one time and I’m wishing now I could have had a chance to go inside and see it, you know, so. Douglas Sleep: When did she work there? Shirley Bradley: Uh, she worked there during the war. Douglas Sleep: Okay. Shirley Bradley: Um, she had a tough time getting in because as soon as war was declared, she needed a better job and she went over and sat in the personnel office for a long time and they wouldn’t call her in to be interviewed so she kept going back, going back, and going back. Finally, whoever the personnel manager was at that time or an assistant was a man… Douglas Sleep: Uh-huh. Shirley Bradley: …he finally said, oh, all right. He got tired of seeing her sitting out there I guess in the other room with all the dusty, old magazines and cigarette ashtrays overflowing. And he, so he, she said to him I know you’re going to have to hire women ‘cause the men are going to be going, you know. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: He finally gave in. His first idea was, lady, you belong, you know, at home. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: [throat clearing] And, of course, after that… Douglas Sleep: The war changed that. Shirley Bradley: History changed, yeah, changed everything. But she worked on the receiving dock during the war. And then after the war, after the strikes and all that was settled and coal, steel, and railroad and whatever else, then she was called back ‘cause I guess they got a new military contract or commercial contract, I’m not sure what, and then she was there again for a while and then she ended up in the lawnmower division. Douglas Sleep: Okay. The lawnmower division was gone when I got there. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Oh yeah. This was in the… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Well, it would have been early 50s. Douglas Sleep: I used to see lawnmower parts once in a while in all my… Shirley Bradley: [11:01] Did you? Douglas Sleep: …poking around looking for things. They would still get inventoried and be on the inventory list, but. Shirley Bradley: It never occurred to me as a kid, lawnmowers in a truck plant, you know, kids don’t think about that sort of thing... Douglas Sleep: Yeah, right. Shirley Bradley: …but yeah. Um, let’s see. Okay. In the maintenance department, so you pretty well described what you did there. [11:25] And let’s see, any kind of training that you had before you went to REO that fit you for working or they…? Douglas Sleep: No. Basically… Shirley Bradley: … just on the job? Douglas Sleep: Basically, I went right out of high school right to REO for the most part, yeah. I had a little short-term job in between but it was a short one. Shirley Bradley: [11:38] Do you have any idea, can you remember any kind of what you made per hour? You weren’t on salary were you or were you? Douglas Sleep: It seems to me I hired in at $2.38 an hour in 1961. Shirley Bradley: [11:50] And that was pretty good then, wasn’t it? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Yup, that was basically the same amount of money that GM was paying. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Oh, that’s interesting. Thank you. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. We were pretty close. We were on par with everything there as GM was. Shirley Bradley: [12:04] And benefits, hospitalization? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Yeah. I had benefits, vacation time, yup, everything, was probably better benefits than we have now. [chuckle] Shirley Bradley: Could be, could be. [12:15] Um, did you ever have the occasion to go down to the first aid department? Douglas Sleep: Oh yeah. Yeah, I went there several times. Shirley Bradley: [12:21] Did you? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. I mean nothing serious. Shirley Bradley: Just… Douglas Sleep: I head a nick here, there, you know, but I was… Shirley Bradley: Steel slivers or whatever. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. I’d get banged up one way or another, scratch here or there, but. Shirley Bradley: [12:32] It was nice to have that right there on site, wasn’t it? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, it was, yeah. Shirley Bradley: Um… Douglas Sleep: I can’t remember her name right now. Shirley Bradley: [Ardith Pappen 12:38]. Douglas Sleep: [Ardith Pappen 12:38], yeah, right. Shirley Bradley: Everybody speaks so highly of her. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: I met her and we wanted to interview her in ’92, um, and she was perfectly willing but we didn’t know it at the time, she was very ill. Douglas Sleep: Oh. Shirley Bradley: And she had to keep going – whenever we’d get ready to interview her, she couldn’t do it and now as I look back on it discovering that she was quite ill, she had to go in for treatments and whatever so that… Douglas Sleep: Oh. She was, she was really nice. Shirley Bradley: Oh, bless her heart. And, uh, all the taped interviews that I did in ’92 with Lisa Fine were here and then they got moved around a lot and ended up [Doris Doll 13:10] had, I took them to her finally so they wouldn’t get lost, then Doris passed away and her husband Mack had them but he couldn’t remember where he had them and I didn’t want to bother him right away after she passed away so I let it go a couple months then he couldn’t find them and [Ardith 13:23] found them for us and brought them back down here and then she passed away just a week or 2 after. Douglas Sleep: Wow. Shirley Bradley: God bless her. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. She was, everybody liked [Ardith 13:30]. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: I’ve heard such – and I met her a couple of times at the REO girls’ luncheons and really a lovely woman. Um, okay, let’s see. Douglas Sleep: I think it was about that time I got started in union activities when I was in – so I was union steward there for 2 or 3 years and then when I transferred to the, uh, what do they call it, stock department, I was a stock chaser. Shirley Bradley: Hm. [14:02] What does a stock chaser do? Douglas Sleep: Well, similar to what I was doing in service, you provided all the parts for all the assembly lines. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: You had to go out and procure all the parts, find all the parts. The only thing different when you’re a stock chaser, you for the most part you were just dealing with one specific area. Like I was, at one point in time I was, well, the first part, the first job I got I think it was in the press division. I worked in the press division. All I did was drive trucks, uh. Shirley Bradley: [14:30] A stock truck? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. A stock truck, fork trucks basically. Shirley Bradley: Forklift, yeah. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And then you would just move parts from, from one press to another and then you take them to a storage area when they were completed pressed out. And after that, I think I spent 6 months there and then I went to the axle department and I provided a portion of the axle department with, with stock, U-bolts, whatever it might be, you know, to keep the semi lines running. Shirley Bradley: So they could keep running. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: You put them in big bins or something… Douglas Sleep: Put them in bins. Shirley Bradley: …and they could just reach their parts. Douglas Sleep: Right, so you put them in a place where, well, they were all designed to have a specific area. And then a lot of times there were specialty trucks coming down the line so sometimes you had to get specialty parts, you know. Each truck was different per se. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: I mean there were a lot of standard parts that went into each truck but each truck had different U-bolts, different drag links. Shirley Bradley: According to their purpose. Douglas Sleep: Right, yeah. What… Shirley Bradley: Who was going to buy them. Douglas Sleep: What they were buying, who was buying it and what they were buying them for so there were a lot of different trucks. Everything was custom made basically. Shirley Bradley: [15:29] Did you ever see any of the owners who had ordered those trucks? Douglas Sleep: No, I can’t say that I ever seen any of them, no, no. Shirley Bradley: Sometimes I guess there had been some that have come to the, come to the factory… Douglas Sleep: Oh, I’m sure there were. Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …to see what was being built. Douglas Sleep: And probably at that point in time I got elected to the bargaining committee, so I… Shirley Bradley: [15:45] And did you like that? Douglas Sleep: Oh yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: [15:47] Did you? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, I liked it. It was, it was a little stressful for me ‘cause I was kind of young and I took a lot of things too close to, I carried it on my heart I guess some of them too, too close. I never had a guy released. The biggest part is not having anybody fired that you were representing. I probably represented 500 people and for me it was a full-time job. It was negotiating. It was – that’s all I did was do union activities, try to settle complaints. Shirley Bradley: Oh, somebody would come to you, a worker with a complaint. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: And then you were to… Douglas Sleep: I, I would either write a grievance if we couldn’t settle it with the supervisor or the superintendent and we’d write a grievance and try to settle it out later. But 90% of the time – the superintendent of the stock department was Lowell Leverett. That was the biggest area I represented. I represented Maintenance and Export and Service. I had a pretty, pretty big area but the majority of the time I was able to work things out with Lowell Leverett, saved a lot of grievances for him and a lot of problems for me. Shirley Bradley: [16:43] What was his name again? Douglas Sleep: Lowell Leverett. Shirley Bradley: Lowell. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. He would be a good person to contact too. Shirley Bradley: Leverett. Douglas Sleep: L-e-v-e-r-e-t-t. Shirley Bradley: Oh, 2 T’s. Okay. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Um, so a person, a worker comes to you and they got a problem they couldn’t handle. Douglas Sleep: Right. Shirley Bradley: They couldn’t get any satisfaction from their department. Douglas Sleep: If they didn’t feel the foreman was treating them fairly or somebody did some work that should have been done by us, a supervisor or another employee. Or a lot of it was discipline, if they get disciplined for something, I would try to intercede and, and have the discipline removed or reduced or negotiate. Shirley Bradley: Find out… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Find out what maybe. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Try to settle the problem if I could keep it from getting into writing. As I say, Lowell and I worked pretty well together and he, he made arrangements in several cases to reduce the, the suspensions or whatever. Shirley Bradley: Mm-hm. Douglas Sleep: Everybody for the most part was pretty happy. Shirley Bradley: Good. Douglas Sleep: It worked out pretty good, yeah. Shirley Bradley: Great. Well, that’s a, that should have been satisfying in a way for you. Douglas Sleep: It was. It just… Shirley Bradley: Except for… Douglas Sleep: Well, the problem was the ones that were – I spent 90% of my time with 10% of the people and 10% of my time with 90% of the people. And the 10%, the 10% of the people, the ones who were in trouble all the time, were never satisfied with the work you were doing. I mean you might, they might want to give’m 2 weeks off and you get it reduced to 2 days and they didn’t feel it was, the 2 days was even proper, you know. You just couldn’t make those 10% happy no matter what you did. The other 90% were always happy and they always did their job but most of the time I spent my time with people who didn’t want to work or had drinking problems or absentee problems. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: You know, it would have been an awful easy job if it wasn’t for those 10% of the people there. [chuckle] They wouldn’t really have needed me, you know. ‘Cause most people especially at REO were awful good people but in a plant that big you had some that had some alcoholic problems and I sat on the alcoholic committee for a while and that was… Shirley Bradley: [18:43] Oh there was a committee for that? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And I was only 23 years old at the time so it was a… Shirley Bradley: Oh, just a young fellow. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. I was probably the youngest one that was ever elected to the job, so. It was, it had it’s – I developed high blood pressure at that time. I don’t know if that was… Shirley Bradley: [18:59] At that age? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yup. I don’t know if that was the result of it or not, but. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: It was rewarding at times sitting on negotiations and getting somebody out of trouble and solve problems ahead of time. I mean several times Lowell would call me and say you got somebody who has been drinking too much down in Export. You better get him home before somebody gets in trouble. It would be easier for me to just go over there and get that guy and say let’s get out of here. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: Somebody knows what the problem is. You better get out of here now before you get suspended. Shirley Bradley: [19:26] So you would take him home perhaps or? Douglas Sleep: Right, right. Shirley Bradley: Make sure he got there. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. So a lot, I could say a lot of our problems were settled in between him and I as opposed to some supervisors or superintendents that just wanted to you might say nail somebody but I had a pretty easy job in that respect. And negotiations, I really enjoyed negotiations, negotiating for contracts. That was, that was fun. Shirley Bradley: [19:51] Uh, what goes into negotiating contracts? You have to work between the workers and the management or? Douglas Sleep: Just the bargaining committee sat down with International and we’d, we would negotiate with the, either the lawyers if they hired lawyers or the personnel department or sometimes the president would come in or the plant manager which was [Clair Laudenslager 20:11]. I negotiated with him a couple different times and Everhardus, Herm Everhardus was the personnel director. Shirley Bradley: Everhardus. Douglas Sleep: Herm Everhardus, yeah. He was an All American out of University of Michigan. Shirley Bradley: Herm I suppose is Herman. Douglas Sleep: Herman, yeah. Herman Everhardus. He was an All American Football player. Shirley Bradley: He was? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. He is married to I believe a Kellogg girl. Shirley Bradley: From the Kellogg? Douglas Sleep: Family. Shirley Bradley: In Battle Creek. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Oh, interesting. Douglas Sleep: He probably really didn’t need the job, it just was something for him to do. Shirley Bradley: Everybody needs to be useful. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: [20:52] Um, can you recall any of the big, would this be during a strike period you’d be negotiating or? Douglas Sleep: Well, the strike was always an option but we never, we never did go on strike with any of the negotiating contracts we had. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: We were able to settle them ahead of time. Shirley Bradley: That’s good, isn’t it? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. We came close just before I got on the bargaining committee. White Motors had acquired REO and White Motors wanted us to go out on strike, the union from White Motors, but we ended up not going on strike. That was something Roger Foster – the employees wanted to go on strike, Roger Foster got in front of a meeting of 2000 people and I never seen a guy talk so long in my life. He convinced them. The International reps couldn’t convince the people not to go out on strike but Roger spent 15 minutes up on the stage I think it was over at Sexton High School. He had them eating out of his hand before he left there. We ended up not going on strike. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: I never – I always said the guy could be governor of Michigan if he ever set his mind to it but he was happy enough just to be the president of REO… Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: …of the union anyway. Shirley Bradley: Of the union. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: He sounds like a very nice… Douglas Sleep: Oh, he’s a… Shirley Bradley: …very valuable person for the company… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …if he could do that, uh. Douglas Sleep: So I spent, oh gosh, I think it was 8 years on the bargaining committee, 6 to 8 years. Shirley Bradley: Oh, you were there a long time on… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …on bargaining. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And then I ran for the chairman of the bargaining committee and lost the election. At that point in time, I had to go back to work. Shirley Bradley: You didn’t kiss enough babies. [chuckle] Douglas Sleep: I guess not. Shirley Bradley: Shake enough hands. Douglas Sleep: I guess not. I guess not. It was a close election but I ended up losing, which is one of those things that happens, I guess. If you’re going to try and move up, you got to take the chance. Shirley Bradley: That’s, yeah, true. Douglas Sleep: And I always wanted to go in the International Union, that’s what I was hoping to do because I got started so young [inaudible 22:44]. Shirley Bradley: ‘Cause you had a long time, a future. Douglas Sleep: Right, right. Shirley Bradley: Sure. Douglas Sleep: But it didn’t work out and I went back to, at that point, I went to back to working on the, back to the stock department or the stock division. I had to go to, let’s see, I think I went to back to chasing stock and, and that’s when they were going through some hard times. Shirley Bradley: [23:05] Because of? Douglas Sleep: That was – Cappaert owned it at that point in time and the guy selling parts to him, the vendors wouldn’t sell him any parts. They had to store all the parts over at John Bean, all the big parts. The engines, the transmissions, the axles, they all had to be stored in a separate building in case the company went under ‘cause he wasn’t paying any of the vendors. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: And they couldn’t get a transmission or an engine ahead of time unless they paid for it or they put it over in that other building. Shirley Bradley: So that was… Douglas Sleep: That was separate from REO. Shirley Bradley: Separate from REO. Douglas Sleep: They, they were renting the building and they were storing the bigger… Shirley Bradley: [23:48] Whose decision was that, was that Cappaert’s to put those over there? Douglas Sleep: Well, just he, he… Shirley Bradley: [23:51] Or he didn’t know about it or? Douglas Sleep: No, he didn’t have any choice I don’t think. He couldn’t get the parts unless they stored them in a separate building. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: ‘Cause the vendors wouldn’t sell them. Shirley Bradley: Oh, oh, I see. If it said John Bean on it… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …they wouldn’t… Douglas Sleep: It wasn’t on Cappaert, it wasn’t on… Shirley Bradley: It wasn’t… Douglas Sleep: …Diamond REO’s property so if, if they went under… Shirley Bradley: So they felt… Douglas Sleep: …they could still go back and get those parts because they were on separate property. Shirley Bradley: I see, so they could finish up some trucks. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Some they were building and I was, I had to go out, me and 1 other guy they assigned us to go out and find each individual parts to see if they had the transmission, the axle, the engine, all the major parts, the drag links, even some of the drag links and some of the specific parts that they need for each individual truck a couple days ahead of time. Shirley Bradley: [24:32] Drag what? Douglas Sleep: Drag links, they go on the… Shirley Bradley: [24:34] Links? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Okay. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. It’s like a tie rod basically on a car but only about 6 times bigger. Shirley Bradley: Oh. [chuckle] Douglas Sleep: But we had to go out and find all the major parts to make sure they could build a truck because there were, you know… Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: …like 3 or 4 days ahead of time to see what trucks they could build and so me and another guy were doing that for about 6 months. And then the cutbacks came even further and then I got transferred to the, uh, the rail dock which is right alongside Export. Shirley Bradley: Mm-hm. Douglas Sleep: And they laid off so many people, I had to run a mobile crane which was a 4-wheel, 4-wheel drive crane that steered both wheels, front and back steered, and you had to lift up the frame rails from down below the dock and lift them up with a crane and drive them down to the other end of the dock and get them on a rail. And that’s where the trucks really got started from that frame rail, you know. Shirley Bradley: Oh, that was from the bottom up then. Douglas Sleep: Right. And that was… Shirley Bradley: [25:40] Did you like doing that? Douglas Sleep: Well, I didn’t mind it ‘cause you weren’t under any major pressure. You could keep ahead without any problem but it was a little bit dangerous because there was… Shirley Bradley: I was wondering about that. Douglas Sleep: You could drive right off the dock. There was no way to stop you from going off the dock or if you got… Shirley Bradley: Really? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. There was no – there was a cement dock and there were no side supports. You were just… Shirley Bradley: Hung out there. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. You may… Shirley Bradley: [26:03] What kind of a drop was that? Douglas Sleep: Oh, about a 7, 8-foot drop. Shirley Bradley: Enough to have that thing… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …fall down on top of you. Douglas Sleep: Oh yeah. If the, if the, if the crane was to fall on you or you fall on those rails, it would definitely would kill you. Shirley Bradley: Oh heavens. Douglas Sleep: And if you picked up too heavy a package of rails, you know, the rails came in, they were all bound together probably I’d say about 16 at a time. You had to, you had to move them out there without tipping over the, the [chuckle] crane as well so it was a little bit dangerous but… Shirley Bradley: It sounds like that. Douglas Sleep: …I worked with a guy that was pretty well at it and when he was off I had to, I had to drive it myself. I had to stand up and drive it. Shirley Bradley: Oh, you stood up to do this thing. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. You stood up on it and drove it with, your hand controlled the speed and your foot controlled the brake. It was a unique piece of machinery. Shirley Bradley: That sounds like a job just learning to coordinate. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Being me, I would forget which one to push and I’d be in trouble. Douglas Sleep: Well, it took some getting used to. I drove a bullnose before, which is a similar type of operation with your feet and with your hands. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: So I had done that type of thing before but carrying frame rails, lifting them up 15 feet off the ground and having it swing up there, you know, it’s a little bit different. Shirley Bradley: I’m not, for anybody listening to this, you’re talking frame rails. [27:25] Frame rails are what? Douglas Sleep: Are the sides, are, well, they’d be steel, they might run anywhere from 20 to 30 feet long and they would be about 8 inches, 10 inches wide and I’d say 3/8 or more thick, maybe ¼ inch or more thick. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: It’s basically the sides of the truck, everything goes to the frame rails. Shirley Bradley: This is the sides of the frame. Douglas Sleep: Sides, yeah, this is the frame. Shirley Bradley: And everything hooks to that. Douglas Sleep: Every, this is basically the frame. Shirley Bradley: Okay. Douglas Sleep: It’s a frame and then they just, they take it inside and then they, they have patterns laid out, each individual one where the frame layout man would mark it out and then it would go from the frame layout area to the drills and it would have holes drilled in it so there was a way to attach everything to the frame. Shirley Bradley: [Inaudible 28:13] together. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: So you brought them in and then just put them down. Douglas Sleep: Put them on rollers. Shirley Bradley: Oh, on rollers, okay. Douglas Sleep: And then they would roll them into the frame layout area and then a guy would lay them out. The guy, he had to be pretty good with blueprints. Shirley Bradley: [28:28] Did he? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And they would stamp them. They’d, they’d pinprick them so they knew where the drill bits were supposed to fit. Shirley Bradley: Where to put the holes. [chuckle] Douglas Sleep: Right, right. And then they’d mark, take chalk and mark around them so they knew which size hole to put in each one, so it was quite a process there. Shirley Bradley: Huh. And that was the beginning of the truck. Douglas Sleep: That was the start of it, right. Shirley Bradley: Oh, that’s interesting. That’s interesting. It would be such, I don’t know if fun is the word I want here but it would be so interesting to go in and see that happening. Douglas Sleep: It was a, it was a spectacular place to work. Shirley Bradley: [28:59] Was it really? Douglas Sleep: Yes, it was. Shirley Bradley: That’s what I wanted to ask you next. [29:01] Looking back, what are your thoughts? Douglas Sleep: Well, it was almost like a family. Everybody liked each other. Everybody worked together and most of the people didn’t have to kill themselves but everybody gave a pretty fair day’s piece of work for, for their wages. There were some that would goof off without any question. Shirley Bradley: You can find that anywhere. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Douglas Sleep: But everybody for the most part worked pretty well together. There are some that had to work a whole lot harder than others, those guys on the main line but after they got a little bit of time then they could get off the main line. Shirley Bradley: That’s production line? Douglas Sleep: Right. Production line. But, as today’s standards and what I hear from other places and GM and stuff, I think for the most part, people worked, gave a pretty good day’s piece of work for their wages. Shirley Bradley: [29:45] And you were there then when the doors closed? Douglas Sleep: Yup, I was there when, well, I wasn’t there the last few days when it was closed but I was one of… Shirley Bradley: Toward the end. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. I was there on the last major layoff. Everything that was done after I was there was just shipping parts out and stuff and tearing the place down basically. Shirley Bradley: [30:01] So you knew it was coming, did you [inaudible 30:03]? Douglas Sleep: Well, I didn’t, I didn’t really believe it when it happened. Shirley Bradley: Is that right? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. ‘Cause I think it was, oh, what was it, it was like April 4th I’m going to guess… Shirley Bradley: Mm-hm. Douglas Sleep: …was the big layoff. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: As I, as I recall, and I thought, well, I’ve never been off work here in my life. I packed up the kids and we went to Disneyland. I thought I’m going to have a paid vacation. I’m going to get unemployment and I’ll come back in a couple months and probably be back to work. Shirley Bradley: You think another contract maybe. Douglas Sleep: Well, they had put a lot of money into the place in different parts. Shirley Bradley: Oh they had? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. They… Shirley Bradley: [30:43] Into what? Repairs for the building or? Douglas Sleep: They bought some new equipment and some repairs in the building and… Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: …did a lot of cleanup and paint work and they bought a lot of equipment. I thought maybe this place is going to make it but I didn’t realize how he had leveraged the place, you know. Even though I worked in stock there for a while, seeing how they had to order the parts, I still thought something was going to happen. I just thought it was – they were making money every year. I thought they were doing a good job. Shirley Bradley: And you were pretty sure you would have a job to come back to. Douglas Sleep: I thought I was going back. It took me 6 months to realize I wasn’t going back to work. Shirley Bradley: Oh. [31:15] So when you came back to Lansing to go back to work, what kind of conditions did you find? People were emptying out their drawers or? Douglas Sleep: Well, I never, I don’t think I ever went back into the plant after I got laid off. Shirley Bradley: Okay. Douglas Sleep: I don’t believe I ever did. Shirley Bradley: Okay. You knew. You had gotten word or something… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …by then. Douglas Sleep: Well, by then, when some of the people I knew that were telling me what they were shipping out while I was gone, I finally realized after about 6 months that I wasn’t going back to work so I better start looking for… Shirley Bradley: Nobody ever called back. Douglas Sleep: No. I never was called back. No. Shirley Bradley: That was a sad day. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: I think one of the saddest was when they tore the clubhouse down. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: I know people several years ago when we did a, well, ’91 and ’92, we had a REO reunion down here and we put out a big blanket ad and called people, anybody that worked for REO come on down, we want to have a REO day and get to know you and if you’d like to be, if you’d like to talk about your experience, we’ll take your name and address and phone number and follow up and we did. I think almost to a person they all said they tore the clubhouse down. It was like your, your childhood home… Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: …was suddenly gone from the face of the earth. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. That was a big thing. That was, I mean, I enjoyed the clubhouse but the generation before me that worked there that were 20 years older than me, that was a big part of Lansing. Shirley Bradley: Oh yeah. Douglas Sleep: I heard a lot of stories about it and stuff. We used to negotiate our contracts upstairs in the clubhouse. Shirley Bradley: [32:37] Oh, you did? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: That was where that was done. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. When we got down to the final part or if we had arbitration hearings, we would do that up there. Shirley Bradley: [32:44] Was the union…? Douglas Sleep: In the wheel, I think they called it the wheel room or whatever. Shirley Bradley: The, yeah, oh yeah. Douglas Sleep: Is that what they called it? Shirley Bradley: Something like that. I should know. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Yeah, but anyway, I know where you mean. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Douglas Sleep: Oh. Shirley Bradley: [32:59] Are there any last thoughts here, something I didn’t cover that you’d like to talk about? Douglas Sleep: Well, one of the, one of the, one of the experiences I had, I was on the bargaining committee, me and the president and 1 other guy got fired. Shirley Bradley: [33:14] Really? For what? Douglas Sleep: Well, they never, they never, uh, it was Cappaert that was trying to break the union. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: And he figured if he got rid of Roger Foster, me, and, oh, a guy in the office, I can’t think of his name right now, he was chairman of the office. He figured if they got rid of us 3, maybe they could break the union and have things their way a little bit more. But we spent a week out, our names hit the newspaper and stuff but I guess they finally decided that they didn’t really have any grounds so they brought us all back to work after a week. Shirley Bradley: Not I’m sorry, we misunderstood or anything. Douglas Sleep: No. Shirley Bradley: Just get back in here, huh? Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. I guess that was probably one of the more unique experiences. But I have a lot, a lot of good experiences there. Shirley Bradley: With a lot of good folks. Douglas Sleep: A lot of good people. Shirley Bradley: And you probably still see… Douglas Sleep: I see some of them from time to time. I golf with one of them once in a while, Tom [Barkley 34:09] and I see him mostly probably 2 or 3 times a week out on the golf course. I don’t golf with him but I see him out there. Shirley Bradley: You see him out there. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And I, I can’t go anyplace, I go to hockey games at Michigan State every year and I always see half a dozen people there so you just really can’t go anyplace without running into somebody. Shirley Bradley: It’s like family again. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Douglas Sleep: It was a close, close-knit group really. Everybody was, I just I wish I could have retired from there. I really do. It’s just… Shirley Bradley: [34:37] Where did you go from there after…? Douglas Sleep: I went to Cata. That’s how Sandy Draggoo… Shirley Bradley: Oh, that’s how Sandy knows you. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: Sandy Draggoo. Douglas Sleep: I worked there for about 24 years. I retired 4 years ago. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: I retired at 58, so. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: So I’ve been pretty lucky I guess. And [Clair Laudenslager 34:54] who had run the company at the end, he hired quite a few people from, from the REO that he knew that he figured were good employees. Shirley Bradley: [35:01] And did he hire you or? Douglas Sleep: Uh, actually through his daughter. She helped me get in there. Shirley Bradley: [35:07] Is that Charmin, Charmaine? Douglas Sleep: No, it was Dawn. Shirley Bradley: Dawn. Douglas Sleep: And then Sandy Draggoo actually hired me. Shirley Bradley: Oh. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And another fellow, a president of the union turned my name in down there but between Sandy and Dawn and Jim Kramer I was able to get in there and it worked out pretty good for me. Shirley Bradley: Good. Douglas Sleep: I didn’t like driving but it still worked out pretty good. I liked to eat, you know, and stuff like that. Shirley Bradley: You got a family to support. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. I got kids in school and stuff, so. Shirley Bradley: You bet. Douglas Sleep: It worked out well for me, really. Shirley Bradley: Good, glad to hear it. Um, Sandy spoke a lot of [Clair Laudenslager 35:41] and his name has come up through the years with interviews I’ve done and I almost always… Douglas Sleep: He treated the employees really well, really well. Shirley Bradley: That’s the picture I got from her… Douglas Sleep: He treated, he treated… Shirley Bradley: …that he was tough but he was fair. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, he was tough. He was extremely tough. He went a bit tougher on the supervisors and stuff. He, he ruled kind of with an iron fist in that respect with the supervisors. But for the employees, if somebody walked through if they wanted to talk to him, he, he would talk to them. If they had a complaint, he’d listen to it. But he really treated the employees, he figured the employees were the backbone of the place and he did the same thing with CATA when he got over there. He took over Cata, he treated the employees, he had all the employees in his back pocket, so he knew how to start from the ground floor. Shirley Bradley: Hm. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. He, he was well loved down at the REO and Cata both. Shirley Bradley: That’s good to know. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. It’s hard to find a guy in that capacity that was that well liked but… Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Douglas Sleep: …he did it from the old school standpoint not the new school standpoint but he was well liked. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. I think she mentioned that he got fired several times and hired back. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. And they’d always hire him back ‘cause if they got problems, they’d hire him back ‘cause he could get things squared away and get the people… Shirley Bradley: Nobody else could do it. Douglas Sleep: Right. Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Well… Douglas Sleep: As a matter of fact, one other story. Shirley Bradley: Oh good, good. Douglas Sleep: Uh, in regard to him, Cappaert wanted to fire him, he locked, he locked all the gates, put chains around all the gates and for some reason he was after [Clair 37:11]. I don’t know the particulars of that but I was serving as chairman of the bargaining committee at that time on a temporary basis and I contacted Roger Foster the president and we went over to [Clair’s 37:24] office and told him we were concerned about the employees being locked in. Shirley Bradley: Oh, they were locked in. Douglas Sleep: Inside, yeah. They wanted to do special inventory or something and I don’t know exactly what Mr. Cappaert’s plans were but we didn’t see any reason for our employees to be locked in, in case something went wrong. So he told us to, you open them gates any way you can. He says that’s your responsibility and, and I’ll stand behind you on that. So Roger Foster was able to make some pretty good political points in that respect ‘cause we went from one place to another and telling all the employees to cut them chains off or take some bolt cutters. He says we’re giving you authority to do it, so [chuckle] we went around and cut all the chains off all the doors. We never heard anything from Cappaert or anybody else but we had… Shirley Bradley: Probably he was afraid to say anything. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: He probably didn’t think anybody would do that. Douglas Sleep: Yeah, yeah. Shirley Bradley: It probably never occurred to him. Douglas Sleep: We took on the challenge. I guess maybe that’s why he tried to fire us later, I don’t know. Shirley Bradley: It could have been. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: It could have been. Douglas Sleep: But that was an interesting story. That was fun. [chuckle] Yeah. And I was just a kid. It was a little spooky for me. I was probably only about 25 at the time when it happened, 27 I guess. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. [chuckle] Yeah. I’ve heard from some of the gals that worked in the offices said, one in particular said she, like you, had thought things were going to get better and when she went to work that day there was a chain on the door, a padlock on the door. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: She said I just sat down and cried. And I’ve heard of other people who were too old to get a job somewhere else and they had their money in their pension fund thinking they could retire and they’d have that pension and didn’t, it was gone. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: And I’ve heard of suicides. Douglas Sleep: The pension, yeah, there were some suicides. There was some – the pensions were guaranteed but everybody lost a considerable amount. We were the first company under the Act of Congress to have our pensions guaranteed. Shirley Bradley: Oh really? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. But, uh, in my case it was supposed to be like $62 a month when I turned 65. Shirley Bradley: [39:24] $62 a month? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Which I was lucky I was able to get mine out and put in a, in an IRA and I’ve made considerably more money than that already. Shirley Bradley: But you were able to get yours out before… Douglas Sleep: Some were, yeah. It took me a long time. I had to call Washington several times. I, I bugged them for 9 months. I got to know everybody down there. Finally, I just got a hold of the right gal and she took care of it for me. Shirley Bradley: Really? Douglas Sleep: Yeah. I don’t know how it worked. I don’t know why but, but those that couldn’t get theirs out, they, like my father-in-law I think his, he had 33 years in there. I think he was living on $300 a month. It just was devastating for them. Shirley Bradley: Oh, absolutely. And you don’t get another job at that age. Douglas Sleep: Right, right. He had to, he went to take on a janitor job for 3 or 4 years at Waverly Schools and… Shirley Bradley: Oh. Oh, Waverly. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. That got him by for a while but it was, it was pretty tough. I, I’ve seen some guys that never recovered from it. I’ve seen others that made a fortune, so it worked both ways. Shirley Bradley: Yeah. Douglas Sleep: More got hurt than got helped, let’s put it that way. Shirley Bradley: That’s, yeah, that was really tragic as I look back on it. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Shirley Bradley: Well, Lisa Fine has written a book and it just came off the press and it’s about REO. Douglas Sleep: Uh-huh. Shirley Bradley: And thank you very much. Douglas Sleep: Yeah. Okay. Shirley Bradley: Thank you very much for the interview. And here it is, June 22, 2004, and I’ve been talking to Doug Sleep. /mlc