Karen Dunckel discusses her career as a production worker and UAW member at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: This is Cheryl McQuaid. I’m with the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. We’re at the UAW 602 Union Hall Conference Room. It’s December 13th, 2005, approximately 11:15 a.m. We’re preparing to interview Karen Dunckel. First we’re gonna go around the room. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. Doreen Howard: Doreen Howard. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:28] Karen, would you please state your name and spell your last name? Karen Dunckel: Karen S. Dunkel, D-U-N-C-K-E-L. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:36] And what is your address? Karen Dunckel: 436 White Pine Boulevard, Lansing 48917. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:43] And are you married? Do you have children? Karen Dunckel: No, I’m single. I have 3 stepchildren. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:52] And could you tell us a little bit about your educational background? Karen Dunckel: Um, I graduated from Waverly High School, um, took some classes down at LCC, don’t have any type of degree or anything. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:07] Okay. And do you remember – could you tell us what your seniority date is and your memories of walking into the plant the very first time? Karen Dunckel: [tsk] My seniority date is 5/22 of ’78. [throat clearing] Um, [laughter] when I hired in, I was just overwhelmed. Um, [laughter] I don't know if I wanna say this or not, but, um, it was like a meat market. [laughter] That’s exactly what it was. [thumping] I mean, [tapping] someone hollered, the gentleman hollered, “Oh, new meat on the block!” [laughter] and I just went, "Oh my God, what am I doing in here?" That was that. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: [1:50] And what shift did ya hire into? Karen Dunckel: I [clicking] hired in on nights. Cheryl McQuaid: Nights? Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:54] And what job? Karen Dunckel: I was, um, on Door Papers. They kinda used me as Utility Extra Board at the very beginning. [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. [2:06] Why did you come into the factory? Karen Dunckel: [tsk] Why did I come into the factory? [tsk] Uh, it was there. Not having any, um, college education, and they were hiring, and I just came and stayed overnight on the lawn out front at Fisher Body and put my application in. I got there about 2:00 in the morning and camped out with a buncha people and was probably hired 2 weeks later. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:37] And you were raised around the factory. Do you remember, um, do you remember drivin’ by and, and seeing Fisher Body and... Karen Dunckel: Yeah, I remember it being there, existing, ya know, but far as, ya know, paying very much attention to, as a child, what was going on over there or if it affected, ya know, the environment or anything that I lived in, I’d – it was here nor there I guess. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. [3:10] Uh, how long did you do the Door Paper job? Karen Dunckel: [tsk] Um, probably did it for a couple weeks, and then, like I say, they kind of switched me around where they might need somebody... Cheryl McQuaid: [3:26] Do you remember s-... Karen Dunckel ...as like... Cheryl McQuaid: ...do you remember some of the other jobs that you did? Karen Dunckel: Oh yeah, I did a lotta different jobs, um, throughout my whole 25½ years there. Um, let’s see, what did I do after that? I did BX2 Moldings for a long time and, um, did that. What else? Oh my gosh. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [3:51] Karen, can you tell us what a BX2 Molding was and what, what, what you did with it? Karen Dunckel: At that time, a BX2 Molding was the molding on the side of the door, and at that time, they were chrome and ya had little clips, and you had to snap it onto the side of the doors. And then you would also have to take 2 screws to bolt that to secure it besides the clips being on there. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:15] Was it a hard job to do? Karen Dunckel: No. I didn’t feel it was hard. It wasn’t hard for me, but what was for someone else, it coulda been. But no, it wasn’t a difficult job. [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: [4:28] Okay, and after BX2 cr-, Moldings. Karen Dunckel: You guys are really strikin’ back, huh? [laughter] [laughter] Karen Dunckel: [laughter] Tryin’ ta get them pages to turn. Um, I went on Utility for a while and I was in the area where they did, um, tail lights, they installed door glass, they did door rubbers. Um, [tsk] trying to figure out what that one job was. The lights that were on the side? Does anybody remember that? And they went on the... Cheryl McQuaid: [5:04] Is that a [Besa 5:05] light or? Karen Dunckel: [throat clearing] [tsk] That’s a possibility. I can’t recall exactly. But it was the light on the 88s and the Ninety-Eights. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 5:17]... Karen Dunckel: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: You know – Marilyn Coulter. [5:20] Ya know, you said when you came in, they said new meat. So once you became a night shift worker, was there any kind of pranks that were pulled on you, was there any kind of, um, initiation considering – other than being called new meat when you came in? Karen Dunckel: [laughter] No, not at that time can I recall. No. Marilyn Coulter: [5:42] Were there many – wa-, was the age group young people? Old people? People your own age? Karen Dunckel: There was people that were probably 10 years older than me and then people of my own age. Marilyn Coulter: [5:56] So what was the night shift like? Karen Dunckel: The night shift was – it’s hard to describe. [laughter] [laughter] Karen Dunckel: Um, at that time, it was like party. Everybody, a lotta the people were young and it was party time. And I mean even some a the – after work, you’d get together, ya know, there’d be house parties after work, and just, ya know, that party type a life. And oh how things have changed. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Michael... Karen Dunckel: Thank God. Cheryl McQuaid: Michael Fleming. Karen Dunckel: [coughing] Michael Fleming: [6:33] Uh, [throat clearing] you, you, you talked about n-, when you said you came in, new meat. Uh, that’s considered a catcall or some type of what we would [paper crinkling] consider harassment. How long did it take before you noticed, [paper crinkling] after you’d been here for a while, that that sort of thing kinda went away or did it stay? Karen Dunckel: [tsk] There was things – I guess it depend on it on the individual, [tsk] far as like with me because I was one, I didn’t take no crap. [laughter] So I mean, I stood up for myself, you know, and so I didn’t get affected by maybe the se-, sexual harassment aspect of it. [talking in background] Um, yeah, you would do your little [tsk] playin’ around and stuff like that, but it was never on a serious, ya know, matter, so it was [talking in background] – I think if you just stood up for yourself, then they realized that – some a the men in there realized that, hey, you’re not gonna tolerate this and they’re gonna treat you with respect. Michael Fleming: Okay. Um, you, you talked about when you first, uh, [background noises] got your education, you took some classes at LCC. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: [7:42] Um, y-, were you able to utilize your, [throat clearing] your benefits, uh, through General Motors to that [end and then 7:49] your negotiated benefits to take those classes or did you have to pay for them yourself? Karen Dunckel: Uh, no, I paid for those myself ‘cause that was back like in 70-, after I graduated. [talking in background] During grad-, uh, s-, high school and then after graduation. Michael Fleming: [8:05] You do have stepchildren, you said? Karen Dunckel: Yes. Michael Fleming: [8:08] Are any of’m goin’ to junior college or college? [talking in background] Karen Dunckel: Um, no. Michael Fleming: Okay. [8:14] So you haven’t had a chance to utilize your [TAP 8:16] for anything? Karen Dunckel: No. Michael Fleming: Okay. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [8:20] Uh, Karen, I wanted to go back to, um, when you hired in. Did you hire in in the Trim Shop, in the, on the, on the B Line? [throat clearing] I believe it was the B Line and the A Line back then. [clicking] Do you – can you tell me about the area that you hired into? And then I also wanna know were there very many women on the night shift? Karen Dunckel: I hired into the Trim Shop, and I believe it was the A System [tapping] at that time, but both lines were on the same floor. Um, yeah, there was, there was quite a few women. I don’t – of course there was more men than there was women, ya know? Um, I don't know, maybe a 30 percent? [tsk] That’s my guess – 30 percent over 70 percent male. Marilyn Coulter: [9:10] Um, one question I would like to ask about: what about the facilities? As far as the restrooms. Were there a lot of restrooms there for women? Karen Dunckel: What I recall, it was sufficient. I mean, there was – even for the men and the women, I don’t think there was enough facilities. Marilyn Coulter: [All right 9:32]. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [9:35] Karen, how old were you when you hired in? Karen Dunckel: I was 21. Marilyn Coulter: [All right 9:41]. Karen Dunckel: [throat clearing] A very young, naïve 21. [laughter] [laughter] Karen Dunckel: And I grew up fast from bein’ in there. [laughter] Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. [9:56] Um, were you ever involved in layoffs or strikes that we had here? Karen Dunckel: Um, I was involved in, what I can recall, 1 layoff, and that was in 1984 when we went to the Grand Am, and I was laid off indefinitely, um, and that was a scary situation for me, but I was only off for like 2 months. Michael Fleming: [10:22] Why was it so scary? Would you like to share that? Karen Dunckel: Um, it was scary for me because the fact of not having any other background, didn’t know what I was going to do, and if I was not going to be called back to my employer at that time. Michael Fleming: [10:39] How ‘bout strikes? Were you involved in any of the strikes that we had that you can remember? Karen Dunckel: No, not that I recall. There was one later on, I believe. Wasn’t there? Michael Fleming: Y-, there was a couple, but we, we’ll, we’ll go past that. Karen Dunckel: Oh, okay. Michael Fleming: [10:58] You spoke about when the Grand Am [inaudible 11:00]. [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: What type a vehicle do you drive? If I, if I can ask you. Karen Dunckel: At this point? Michael Fleming: Yes. Karen Dunckel: I drive a, uh, GMC Yukon. Michael Fleming: [11:10] Have you traditionally had GM vehicles or... Karen Dunckel: No. Michael Fleming: [11:14] What type a vehicles were you drivin’? Karen Dunckel: Um, my first vehicle – well, I’ve always had GM products, I guess I should say. Michael Fleming: That what I was [wondering if you could 11:24] [inaudible 11:25]... Karen Dunckel: Yup. And I had a 1980 Chevy Malibu, I had a Camaro IROC. Michael Fleming: Oh wow. [Inaudible 11:32]... Karen Dunckel: And – no, it wasn’t nice. Michael Fleming: You didn’t like it? John Fedewa: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: No. Michael Fleming: You didn’t? Karen Dunckel: They bought it back from me, matter of fact. Michael Fleming: Okay. John Fedewa: [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: Okay. Karen Dunckel: And – under the Lemon Law. Um, and then I went to, um, Grand Ams, and I had a ’89 Grand Am, a ’93 Grand Am that they bought back, um, and then I had a ’94 Grand Am, and I just got rid a that a year and a 1/2 ago and my niece has that, and that’s – I h-, bought the GMC. 2003. Yukon. Michael Fleming: [12:06] Well how do ya like that one? Karen Dunckel: I like it. I wish it got better gas mileage, of course, just like anybody... Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: ...else drivin’ a SUV, but I like it. Michael Fleming: Uh... Cheryl McQuaid: Doreen Howard. Doreen Howard: [12:18] I want to take you back a little bit. You said that when you hired in that you were a naïve 21-year-old and that you learned a lot of different things. Can you talk a little bit about the culture of the plant and how that’s changed over your time frame from when you first started till the present? [cough] Karen Dunckel: How it’s changed. Mm. [papers shuffling] It just changed far as, I guess the way I look at it, the supervisors. Back then, when ya hired in, they were more laid back. They were the older time supervisors, um, and they just, I don't know, they seemed to work with the people better, some of’m, and then in the latter part when I was there, um, they had the contract supervisors, and that was a tough situation, I think, for everybody, just the simple fact of they were just, how do I want to put it, they didn’t know what was goin’ on and they didn’t know how to respond to the people on the line. Um, they just went basically more with a upper-management type a thing. Um, thing changed far as the partying aspect. Well, I don’t know for sure, because I went to days after a couple years of seniority. Um, it changed for me. It’s that growing up type a thing. Um, you didn’t see or hear it, about it as much. I didn’t, anyways. Just a change of lifestyle. Um, far as the ergonomic issues that changed in the plant, they started the program. I’m not sure as of what date they started this, but I think that helped in a sense, but I think a lot of it was a little too late, [throat clearing] ‘cause you had a older workforce and they worked for so many years doing these jobs and not doing a rotating process like they’re trying to, uh, put into effect nowadays, um, and a lotta people are already hurt or injured, and so that’s why I s-, believe that it’s just too late. Um, some of it, far as the er-, ergonomic issues, I can give you an example. I was on a job that they were putting a job together with a bunch of things, taking off work from one a-, one employee to – [throat clearing] ‘cause they were overloaded, apparently, and I was 11 inches too short for the job, and my supervisor told me, he says, “Well, we’re gonna have to disqualify you,” and my explanation was you’re not hurtin’ my feelings by doing that. You’re doin’ me a favor. If you can’t give me what I need to do the job properly so I don’t injure or hurt myself or the next person, then disqualify me. Ya know? So I think there was – and they did end up building a ramp to c-, accommodate. Um, but, ya know, so those were some a the changes that I seen, ya know, in the time that I was there. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. [15:39] Eh, some a the culture that you all had or comradery you had, which is part of culture, when it came to parties... Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: ...uh, birthdays... Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: ...uh, anniversaries, uh, talk about the old supervisors when you all had parties versus getting closer and closer to the newer and the contract ones. Which were the better times for you? Karen Dunckel: Which was the better times far as for... Michael Fleming: Just the, just the cul-, yeah, the cultural [inaudible 16:10]... Karen Dunckel: [throat clearing] [click] Michael Fleming: ...that you had and, you know, those types of, of things. Which, which do you think were, were the better? Karen Dunckel: I think it was probably better in the earlier years than in the later years. Um, I’m referring back... [tap] Karen Dunckel: ...into the ’80s, um, far as the supervisors working with you and allowing you to go around if you were the organizer for a Christmas dinner or Thanksgiving or whatever, um, and I say that because I had a supervisor in the – 1999 I believe it was, and I was doing a retirement dinner for 6 retirees, organizing it... [jingling] Michael Fleming: [Wow 16:49]. Karen Dunckel: ...and the... John Fedewa: [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...supervisor I had at that time stated that I had a take a vacation day the day of the retirement. He could not guarantee me to get off of the line to do this... [shuffling] Karen Dunckel: ...to put this dinner on, and so the 6 retirees – I took my vacation day, and the 6 retirees, after the fact, they, uh, went up to him and gave him a wrath of stuff [laughter] and he ended up giving me vacation day back. Michael Fleming: Sure. Karen Dunckel: So, ya know. So I could say, back in the older days, in the late ’70s, early ’80s, I believe that the supervisors seemed to work with you a little bit better. Michael Fleming: [17:33] Did you all have an opportunity to cook in your departments then or did you, could you not cook back then or whatever? ‘Cause it got to where I think at one point. Karen Dunckel: Exactly. Yeah, w-, I prepared chicken in a big ol’ roaster and different things like that, ya know, so yes... Michael Fleming: Right here in the, right here in the Plant, right? Karen Dunckel: Right in the Plant, yes. Michael Fleming: [Mm-hm 17:52]. Karen Dunckel: Yup, right in the Plant. And I know that they frowned on a lot it, a lot of that. There was, at the latter part, people who would bring in breakfast burritos that their wifes would make and, um, they were tryin’ to stop that and they kinda had to h-, they didn’t stop it because they kinda hid it and slid it by, ya know? So... Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 18:12]. [18:12] How was the, the cafeteria back then versus now? [Did 18:16]... Karen Dunckel: Well, I can’t real-, I don’t really have an opinion on that, just the simple fact because I never attended [laughter] the cafeteria very much. John Fedewa: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: Um, only basically what I would go up there and get was, would be a salad, when I would frequent the cafeteria. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [18:35] Karen, do you remember any partners, um, or people that you worked with that had a big impact on your life? Karen Dunckel: Good or bad? No. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Either or. [laughter] Karen Dunckel: [laughter] No, I can’t say that there was any that was, ya know, really bad. Um, I can remember one partner I had, I was on, um, front-end panels and that job that I was on, I probably shoulda never been on it because I got hurt on it, and I had men who came up that were 6 feet tall, 200-and-some pounds, and wanted to bump me because they were gonna have to go to nights, and that was why I took the job, ‘cause I didn’t wanna go back to nights. And this was in the ’90s. And they, uh, said, “You can have this job. What’re you doin’ on this job? You don’t belong on this job.” I mean, and they were right, ya know, because it was too much of a job, uh, for me to handle. But I did it, I hung in there. Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: I was just, hey, ain’t nobody gonna out-show me, ya know? John Fedewa: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: And, um, so the partner that I had on that job, he was really helpful, ya know, to me and, um, not just, uh, doin’ the job, but just far as makin’ the day go by fast, just really, ya know, it was a fun partner. I mean, I had a lotta fun partners, but I guess he’s the one that stands out most to me, ya know? [tap] [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: [20:18] Karen, do you remember any of the... [tap] Cheryl McQuaid: ...collections that were taken up for people in the Plant? Um, oh, sometimes it was a house fire, or any of those types of types of things? Karen Dunckel: Oh yeah, there was always collections that were bein’ taken up. If there was someone who’d lost a family member, you’d have a card. It might be just in that department that you always, ya know, supported took up a collection. Um, there was other big major collections that were done actually at the door, um, for like deaths or, um, I can – my sister, she was involved in a big collection. Her 6-year-old daughter had gotten Guillain-Barre Syndrome, which, um, attacks the nervous system, and she just went totally down, um, and she couldn’t walk. It’s – it gives you paralysis. And so they took up a collection for her, and then they had a article in the [Line 21:19] Times and, um, all that stuff, but – so yeah, there was a lot of that that went on... [coughing] Karen Dunckel: ...for supporting each other. It was almost like, ya know, workin’ in there, it was like one big family. Ya know, there was a lotta support of each other, um, just a lotta good times. You met a lotta good people, ya know, and all that. So there was a lotta that that went on. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [21:44] Uh, Karen, um, you said that it was like a b-, a big family. Can you say – tell me what types of things did you do for lunch when you worked there? John Fedewa: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: Well, in my younger years, I used to go over to Harry’s... [laughter] Karen Dunckel: ...across the street, which was a bar, and they served food too. But, um, or they... John Fedewa: [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...had you go out in the parkin’ lot or get in your car and run down to the store or, um – but after that, as I matured, as I might say [laughter], I would just stay in at lunch. I did a lotta playing cards with other people that I worked with on my lunch hour. Um, that or just sittin’ and conversing. Marilyn Coulter: [22:27] What types of cards did you play? Karen Dunckel: Cribbage, basically. Played cribbage. Marilyn Coulter: [22:33] Now, the people that you worked with, did any of them become extended friends outside of the plant and did ya do any things with these people outside the plant? Karen Dunckel: Oh yes. Yup. Marilyn Coulter: [22:45] What types of things did you do outside? Karen Dunckel: Oh, would invite’m to my house to have different types of parties, um, like home interior parties, uh, and I can say back in the younger days, it was the party-parties; ya know, the alcohol and different things like that. But um, but yeah, just like home interior parties, party-like parties, um, now I do some [Arvon 23:12] parties, um, just different things like that. Goin’ out to the bars with friends. Marilyn Coulter: [23:20] Um, isn’t – if I’m not mistaken, isn’t there a group of you that for a while, I don’t know if you still do it, but you used to go on camping trips? Made it a annual camping trip that you did with some a the coworkers... Karen Dunckel: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: ...[inaudible 23:32]? Karen Dunckel: There was a few years, um, that there was like 10 or 12 of us girls that we’d go camping and we’d spending the weekend camping and canoeing and different things like that or we’d get together and, um, maybe at the Christmastime and go down to Frankenmuth or Brenner’s and different things like that. Yup. Cheryl McQuaid: Doreen Howard. Doreen Howard: [23:55] Um, you were hired in when the Plant was called Fisher Body, correct? Karen Dunckel: Correct. Doreen Howard: [24:00] Um, how do you... [throat clearing] Doreen Howard: ...feel about the name changes that occurred over your timeframe being there? Karen Dunckel: The name changes, they changed but I never changed; it was Fisher Body to me. It’ll always be Fisher Body. [gulping] [rattling] Doreen Howard: [24:18] And, um, they consider Fisher Body... [crunching] Doreen Howard: ...the Capital of Quality. What do you feel makes... [pencil scratching] Doreen Howard: ...that statement true? [crunching] [papers shuffling] Karen Dunckel: There’s probably some parts of it that I could agree with far as Capital Quality, um, but I guess I seen a lotta things that I disagreed with with building the vehicle and the different products... [pencil scratching] Karen Dunckel: ...that we had to use, the materials, um, and they, uh, sent us to all these classes back in the ’90s on different things – way things were going to change... [pen scratching] Karen Dunckel: ...and they weren’t gonna be the quantity, it was gonna be the quality, and I guess me, as an employee, it really discouraged me, those classes, because I go back to the line and there was things that I saw that, yes, maybe the average customer would not see that I wouldn’t want on my car. [pen clicking] Karen Dunckel: Ya know? So they always was preaching to me... Michael Fleming: [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...my opinion: quality, quality, quality, but I don’t feel that that was always their number 1 goal. [knocking] Cheryl McQuaid: Michael Fleming. Michael Fleming: [25:39] Um, you, you... Karen Dunckel: [cough] Michael Fleming: ...when you came in, can, can you remember how much you made an hour... [gulping] Michael Fleming: ...when you first hired in? [rattling] Michael Fleming: Or round about [maybe 25:51]? Karen Dunckel: No, I can’t e-, I don’t remember. Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 25:56]. Karen Dunckel: Uh-uh. [sniffling] Michael Fleming: Um, do you – did you work any changeovers? Karen Dunckel: No. [laughter] [laughter] John Fedewa: No. [laughter] Karen Dunckel: No. [laughter] It was like when I got my time outta there, I wanted outta there. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Uh, Marilyn Coulter. Karen Dunckel: [cough] Marilyn Coulter: [26:14] Karen... Karen Dunckel: Excuse me. Marilyn Coulter: ...you worked nights and you worked on the line. What types of things did people do or did you do to get through the night? Did ya have radios? Do-, did ya just talk to your coworkers? How did ya get through the nights, being young and on the line? Karen Dunckel: I had the radio. I always have had to have my radio. Ya know? It’s just keeps ya goin’. [throat clearing] And now I hear at the new plant they’re gonna get rid of it? That’s sad. ‘Cause it just motivated me and kept me, me goin’ and kept your mind on something other than just that same repetitive type of thing. Plus, also you would have that partner that you could converse with... Michael Fleming: [thoat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...ya know, or the person down the line 3 or 4 jobs, be hollerin’ back and forth. Marilyn Coulter: [26:59] Did you, um, ever hear the radio – what was known as the radio wars? Karen Dunckel: Radio wars? Oh yeah, radio wars. Marilyn Coulter: [27:06] Can you describe what those were? Karen Dunckel: The radio wars were where there was all these different stations that everybody would be playin’ because everybody had their own type of music that they would like to listen to, and then there was ones who would kick it up and then the other person couldn’t hear theirs, and so it was back and forth type of thing of who’s gonna win out the battle [laughter] so they could hear the radio. But I think back in the early days, it... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...wasn’t as prevalent, I think, as in the later years. [pencil scratching] Marilyn Coulter: [Okay 27:41]. Do you remember any of the – or was there any... [tap] Marilyn Coulter: ...in-plant vending? Like did people buy Christmas products, cookies, any things like that? Did you buy any a that stuff? Anything that you... Karen Dunckel: You mean from... Marilyn Coulter: ...bought? Karen Dunckel: ...other employers... [tap] Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: ...that were – would sell it... [papers shuffling] Karen Dunckel: ...for their children or stuff? Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: Oh yes. [pen scratching] Karen Dunckel: Yup. Somebody would always be bringin’ in, especially around the holidays, for the kids to l-, go to camp or for their band or whatever, for the schools, um, and yeah, purchase the, the products. Yup, lotta that. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [28:17] Karen, do you remember... [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: ...any supervisor that, um, you really liked or didn’t like, and why? Karen Dunckel: Yeah, there was a few supervisors back in the older days that I really liked, ya know, um, and then some... [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...that I’d go head-to-head with, you betcha. [laughter] John Fedewa: [Inaudible 28:40]. Cheryl McQuaid: [28:40] What made a good supervisor? Karen Dunckel: I guess, to me, someone who was understanding, who gave you respect, um, and just that would listen to your problems and your issues that maybe that you had with your job, ya know? Cheryl McQuaid: Doreen Howard. Doreen Howard: [29:07] Um, what’s one of your best memories of Fisher Body? [gulping] Karen Dunckel: One a my best memories. Oh my goodness. I know I gotta have some. No, just kidding. [laughter] [laughter] John Fedewa: [Was it all bad 29:24]? Karen Dunckel: [laughter] No, I think it was, um, probably just the people. Ya know, I’m out of there now and I think it’s just the, the people, the comradit-, that we had. I mean, even though there was a certain amount of separation, ya know, in 2000, ya know, or a little before that, a certain amount, but I think it was just, ya know, the friendships. I mean, I don’t – are you lookin’ for something specific? Oh, okay. [papers shuffling] Karen Dunckel: I can think of a lotta things back, um, in the early ’80s where people would play pranks on each other, and for some ungodly reason – I worked by Door Rubbers, just before Water Test, and they would throw me in the trunk and send me all the way [laughter] in the car down through Water Test. John Fedewa: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: [chucking] And it was just, ya know, those fun little things that they would do, and they-, someone else would cover your job, but, uh, probably that’s, that’s one memory, crazy memory that I remember. [papers shuffling] Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. [30:43] Um, we, we talked a little bit about it earlier, but, uh, do you have any family members that work for General Motors? Karen Dunckel: Yes, I do. Michael Fleming: Um... Karen Dunckel: I have, uh, two sisters that work there. Michael Fleming: [30:55] What, which, which plant? Karen Dunckel: Um, the one, she first hired in at Oldsmobile, but then she was, uh, laid off and had the option to come over to, uh, Fisher, and she came over there, I believe it was in 1983, and then I have another sister that hired in there in 1981. Michael Fleming: [31:15] And so, when you all... [beeping] Michael Fleming: ...have an opportunity to get together as family, do you all have an... [clicking] Michael Fleming: ...opportunity to talk a little bit about r-, times that you had... [rattling] Michael Fleming: ...at Fisher Body? What kinda conversations go on when ya have like Thanksgiving dinner together or somethin’? [rattling] Karen Dunckel: Um, there’s times that we discuss it, but there’s n-... [rattling] Karen Dunckel: ...I mean in different situations and what’s goin’ on, especially seeing I’m outta there now... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...I try to... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...ya know, find out what’s goin’ on, what the hearsay is through them... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...um, what they’re doin’, because they’re laid off right now, um, but, um, we never really... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...well, with my one sister, I guess you could say that... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...we discuss a lotta negative things, ya know? [laughter] [laughter] Karen Dunckel: Maybe I shouldn’t be [laughter] recording this... Michael Fleming: Oh no, [inaudible 32:04]... Karen Dunckel: ...if it’s gonna be... Female: [No, no, no 32:03]. Michael Fleming: ...no... Karen Dunckel: ...put out because you might not like that very well. [laughter] Michael Fleming: If those are the things that impacted you, certainly talk about them. Karen Dunckel: [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: I mean, that’s just quite all right. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: Doreen Howard. Doreen Howard: [32:15] Um, you said that you’re not in the Plant right now, and... [rattling] [clicking] Doreen Howard: ...would you want to discuss the – your... [rattling] Doreen Howard: ...what happened as to why, why... [rattling] Doreen Howard: ...you’re not in the Plant... [clicking] Doreen Howard: ...at all? Karen Dunckel: I’m not in there because I went out on a medical. Um, in 2003, they finally put me out on, uh, medical disability, um... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...from some a the jobs that, like I say, I probably shouldn’t have been doing that I did do, uh, my back and my wrist and my elbows, um – and they just said, “Hey, you’re just no good to us no more, so see ya.” [chuckle] So I said okay. Doreen Howard: [32:57] You, you touched base, uh, a little bit earlier... [clicking] Doreen Howard: ...about, uh, some a the ergonomic issues, and you said you... [tap] Doreen Howard: ...you think that the, the ergonomics... [clicking] Doreen Howard: ...has helped to change some a these jobs that, that you were hurt on at all? Karen Dunckel: Has it changed? Doreen Howard: Yeah. Karen Dunckel: The particular jobs? Doreen Howard: Yeah, or... Karen Dunckel: Oh, at that time... Doreen Howard: ...[if anything changed 33:16]. Karen Dunckel: ...I don’t even think it was implemented at the time, uh, when the f-, first injury with my back occurred, um, and then, far as my hands, no, there wasn’t a whole lot that ergonomics, ya know, I felt at that time... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...basically there’s no changes that they could make. I mean, I heard that a lot from ergonomics on some a the jobs. Ya know, it’s all the way it is and that’s the way it is. [throat clearing] And I’m just a firm believer there’s some people that can handle that type of work and that repetitiveness and then there’s others that are gonna break down sooner and quicker than other people are. Doreen Howard: For, um, the people who are not here to see you, um, you’re a very tiny and petite woman and that may play into some of the, the issues. [34:14] Do you feel that being of small stature and-, had a lot to do with problems? Karen Dunckel: Yeah, I believe there is a possibility of some a that, but I also s-, wonder about your genes, just the way – ya know, and it has to do with the way that you’re built, your structure, if... [thump] Karen Dunckel: ...you were made to do... Doreen Howard: [Yeah 34:36]. Karen Dunckel: ...some a that type of work. Ya know, because like I say, there was some jobs that I was on that were – I had men come up and say, “What are you doin’ on this job?” They didn’t even wanna do the job, ya know? And then I had another job where I was crawling in and out of the vehicle to do h-, uh, headliner, which is the headliner on top a the roof on the inside of the vehicle and putting the lights on up there, and being 5’3” and 3/4... John Fedewa: [whispering] [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...you had a step up to get up into that vehicle. You had no ramp. I had no ramp at that time and, um, had to step up, and it was probably about a 3 1/2 to 4-foot step-up into the vehicle... [thump] [rattling] Karen Dunckel: ...and then I had to sit right on the metal, no seat, sit on a metal – the tunnel in the middle of the car. Raw metal. [thump] Karen Dunckel: Just sit on it. So it was like, yeah, so there’s just a lotta different things... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...that probably through the years, the 25 1/2 years... [papers shuffling] Karen Dunckel: ...that I was employed there, that affected me and prolly affected a lotta other people, I’m sure. Cheryl McQuaid: Michael Fleming. Michael Fleming: [35:48] Would you like to talk a little bit about, um, [throat clearing] when they – your – maybe the last time that you were 179’d, went to Medical, and then your therapy [route 35:59], if they had you do any therapy in the Plant? Karen Dunckel: Yeah, I did therapy, um... Michael Fleming: And 179, for the record, is, is a, um, an interview where they... Karen Dunckel: Have a no job available with-, within restrictions of what you have for your disabilities. [clicking] Karen Dunckel: Um, so back to the question again? What did... Michael Fleming: Just talk about the last time that you can remember bein’ 179’d... [tapping] Michael Fleming: ...um, what trip you took from there. [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: I’m sure you had to go to the Medical Department or wherever they 179’d you to. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: But usually you go to the Medical Department ‘cause you have-, can’t have no place to go, and then they exit you... Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: ...or either you go through se-, therapy. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: [36:41] Or even talk about – any a the time you did therapy, was it any good for you here? Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Um, I was on, um, restriction and the medical had put me on restriction, um, a couple different times. Back the last time and what I basically went out for was the elbow-, elbows and the wrist, and, um, went to Medical, they put me on restriction, went out onto the line, they gave me restricted jobs. Um, so I worked like basically off-line doin’ rework type a thing and that. Yes, I went through physical therapy right there in the Plant; that was through Ingham Medical. Um, there w-, they built these solid casts for my hands and I couldn’t even – they were hard plastic and I had a hard time just functioning, ya know, to do the job in these casts that I had to wear while I was doing these rework jobs, and, um, then they would put – I went to – they sent me, Fisher Body sent me to a specialist, a hand specialist, and I had cortisone injections, um, I had, uh – couldn’t have any more a those because I had like, I don’t know if you’d call it allergic reaction or whatever, and I ended up gettin’ atrophy in my wrist where the muscles and the, uh, tendons, everything was collapsing, it was deteriorating, and I only had two injections in each hand. So, um, that was basically – and then at that point in time, after that, um, they said that it wasn’t going to get any better even if I had the surgery because it could just come back if I kept doing the same type of things. So, um, they decided to 179, and that’s where the management meets with the union and they put you out the door. Michael Fleming: [38:37] And so from there, you ended up retiring. Karen Dunckel: Yes, I was on, um, Workman’s Comp for a year, from 2002 until 2003, and in June in 2000 of 3, they decided to give me a Medical. Michael Fleming: [38:55] Just one more question. Did you have a very good time dealin’ – did you have a very good time dealing with the Medical Department, the doctors in there? Can you think of a doctor that you liked least than you did another? What, what was your, what was your... Karen Dunckel: [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: ...doctor experience like in the Medical Department? Karen Dunckel: Um, in the early years, if you ever had to go down there far as just if you didn’t feel well or this, that or the other thing, the doctors in the Medical Department were very, very bad... [tap] Karen Dunckel: ...and I can’t tell you exactly when it changed. When my experience changed with Medical was back in probably 2000, and Dr. [Layton Closs 39:37], who was up at Medical, she is excellent, ya know, and I think she just cared about the people and she understood, ya know, um, what was goin’ on with all this work that was bein’ put onto employees and they were, ya know, getting injured and whatnot, and I think I also seen some a the nurses that had been there for some time, their basic attitude changed, and one of’m that I don’t even know what her real name is, we, everybody just called her Sarge because she used to be so hardcore, but she even changed her basic outlook when people would come up there to get... [thump] Karen Dunckel: ...treatment, because I think she finally understood that these people and the way they’re putting – loading the jobs down, these people are really getting hurt and they’re really getting injured... Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: ...ya know, and we need to be looking out for these people much more. So I seen the shift of... [thump] Karen Dunckel: ...from years prior to a-... [thump] Karen Dunckel: ...late in the 2000s that they were more understanding, ya know, and not more on the management type a side and GM side, and they were seeing that people were really coming down there with a... [thump] Karen Dunckel: ...um, complaint that was sincere. Michael Fleming: You were on day shift. Karen Dunckel: Correct. Michael Fleming: That’s why you had... Female: [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: ...Dr. [Layton and Closs 40:58]. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: So you were very blessed to have Layton and Closs. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn... Marilyn Coulter: [Um 41:04]... Cheryl McQuaid: ...Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [41:05] Just to give people an idea, can you tell us, um, on the average how many hours you worked a week? I mean, were you – did you work Saturdays? Sundays? Did you work 6 days? 5 days? How, how many days a week did you work and how many hours did you work back then when you were working steady? Karen Dunckel: When I was working steady? It would vary. It would... [clicking] Karen Dunckel: ...depend on, um, you know, how the production was and how the vehicles were selling. There was times that I had worked 10 hours, ya know, and the line would never stop and the next shift would come in. Ya know, it was very few times, but – ya know, and there was years that we ha-, worked 6 days a week... [rattling] Karen Dunckel: ...ya know, and 9 hours a day. [clicking] Karen Dunckel: And then in the latter part, then of course things kind of went on a slump and, and we didn’t get-, see as much overtime as what we used to. Marilyn Coulter: [Okay 41:56]. Cheryl McQuaid: [41:56] Karen, is there anything that we’ve not asked you that you’d to discuss with us or tell us about? Karen Dunckel: Not that I can think of this time. Michael Fleming: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: Mike’s gotta-, Mike’s [laughter] gotta jar my memory here again. [laughter] [laughter] Karen Dunckel: [laughter] He did that earlier. Michael Fleming: Well, Karen, I’ll tell ya, you, you, you’re givin’ an excellent interview. [42:22] Um, I’d like to ask you... [papers shuffling] Michael Fleming: ...about, um, the people that you worked with before you retired, just that group of folk, that core group a people that you worked with. Do you all keep, keep in touch? Have you talked to any of those people at all? Karen Dunckel: There’s, there’s a few, yeah, that I do, and some that have retired, um, that I keep in touch with and, um, that they were like my brothers or maybe my dads when I hired in because they kinda took me under their wing because I was that naïve little individual [chuckle], ya know, and said, “Oh, watch out for that one, watch out for that one.” [chuckle] But yup. Michael Fleming: [43:03] Can you, um, uh, identify with the fact that now that you’re not working that you really did have a little bit of stress on you as far as havin’ to get up and be there at a certain and have c-, certain stuff done? Did it – do you feel better that you actually [don’t 43:20] have the, the pressure of havin’ to come into punch in? [background voices] Karen Dunckel: Um, yeah, because it’s like the people that say, “Boy, I don’t know what I’m gonna do when I retire,” I don’t understand that. [chucking] Karen Dunckel: I actually do not. John Fedewa: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: It’s like I guess they need to get a life... John Fedewa: [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...ya know, because it’s like I don’t have any problem stayin’ busy. Um, so, yeah, because now I can do it at a little bit different schedule instead of, ya know... Female: [Mm-hm 43:50]. Karen Dunckel: ...tryin’ to schedule it in on a work schedule. Michael Fleming: Absolutely. Well, I’m, I’m... Marilyn Coulter? Marilyn Coulter: [43:57] Um, Karen, you put your time in at Fisher Body, and it-, [then change its name but it’s always 44:03] gonna be, and now, we know that this building has since been sold and we’re going to a new facility. How do you feel about the building closing and gonna be demolitioned? Karen Dunckel: How do I feel about that? I feel that it’s pretty sad. It’s been there for so long. Um, but I guess it’s – you have to look at it it’s the time for change and hopefully it’s a good change and things will progress for GM and for the people that are still there. And, um, ‘bout the new plant, I hear some things that I don’t like and I know I wouldn’t wanna have to go in there, and those things are ya can’t have any water at your bench, you can’t have a radio, you can’t – ya know, it’s like you can’t, you can’t, you can’t, and it’s like come on, what are you doing, ya know? You can’t confine people, so I guess is what I’m sayin’ and tell’m you can’t do this and you can’t do that; you gotta give’m a little bit a leniency. ‘Cause I’d go nuts if I was workin’ in there and I didn’t have my radio to get me by for 8, 9 hours... Marilyn Coulter: Now, were... Karen Dunckel: ...and singin’ and beat-boppin’. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [45:12] Were you working there when the smoking ban took place? Male: [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: Yes, I was; at the very end of it, yes. Marilyn Coulter: [45:20] How did that change affect you and your coworkers who were smokers? Karen Dunckel: Well, I’m a smoke-, smoker, unfortunately, on-again-off-again, and, uh, I guess I look at it, I’m a smoker but... [tapping] Karen Dunckel: ...I can go into a restaurant and I don’t understand smokers that go into a restaurant and can’t have their meal, then when they get done, go outside the vehi-, building and smoke. So it’s like that’s just me. Everybody’s different. Um, far as I didn’t have – at work, ya know, you had to go longer, which, hey, that was fine, but I just feel that, I don't know, it’s prolly for everybody’s benefit, even me being a smoker, to be helpful, to be a non-smoking plant. But like this [Waco 46:11]? Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: They have gone way too far. Ya know? It’s like you can’t even smoke at home. Now wait a minute, you can’t tell me, you bein’ my employer, tell me what I can do on my own time. I’m sorry. [thumping] [throat clearing] Marilyn Coulter: [So 46:26] one other question. [46:28] Were you ever involved in any other union activities, be it a-, on any of the committees or any of the functions that they had? Karen Dunckel: Far as being a helping hand, volunteering? Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: No, sorry, I haven’t. Marilyn Coulter: Did you ever attend any? Karen Dunckel: Yeah, I’ve attended the, uh, picnics and different things like that, yup. Marilyn Coulter: [Okay 46:49]. [Inaudible 46:52]. Cheryl McQuaid: Ch-, Cheryl McQuaid. [46:55] Karen, when we first hired in, we were... Karen Dunckel: [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: ...told 90 days before you had any union representation. Karen Dunckel: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: Did – how, how were you introduced to your union representation? Do you remember your union bein’ a part of the scene? Karen Dunckel: Boy, you guys are really askin’ me to rack up them dead brain cells, aren’t ya? [laughter] John Fedewa: It’s good for ya. Cheryl McQuaid: [laughter] Karen Dunckel: Um, it’s like – I can’t recall, Cheryl. I really don’t recall. I would take up too much time tryin’ to turn them pages probably. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Ah. Michael Fleming: [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Um... Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [47:39] Um, during the time that you were here, they-, [and you said 47:42] they had a lotta different training things. [clicking] One a the things that they did start was Employee Involvement. Um, how did you feel about that when they had the different types of Employee Involvement in making decisions about the [car 47:55] and were you a part of any of those groups? Karen Dunckel: Yeah, I, um... John Fedewa: [throat clearing] Karen Dunckel: ...well as far as, ya know, because they tried to introduce everybody, uh, to get involved far as the employee, but I still [tap] believe [tap] that management [tap] did not [tap] want to listen. Ya know? It’s like [tapping] they would listen, but did-, they didn’t hear. They still when it come down, it was strictly that was the way it was going to be. Marilyn Coulter: [Okay 48:23]. Well, with that, the else-, the other thing I want – that – one final question I wanted to ask. [48:33] Um, did you think that working in the Plant for women changed during the course versus coming in and bein’ a piece of meat and retiring? Did it, did the environment change for women in the plant? Karen Dunckel: I think it did, but I also think that there’s a certain aspect, ya know, it’s like you’ve got to carry yourself in a certain way no matter where you’re at and respect yourself in order to receive respect. So I think that, ya know, that is the biggest aspect of it; you, yourself, as a individual. And I think there was some changes, ya know, other than not just within, with it-, a female, but I think some a the other, ya know, with the males or whatever and just the environment for women, but there was still a lot of men that firmly believed in the latter part that it wasn’t a place where a wom-, a woman belonged [throat clearing] in the first place workin’. But I think that changed a little bit, ya know, over the years, but when I first hired in there, ya know, it was like... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Karen Dunckel: ...“You don’t belong in here. What’re you doin’ here?” Some of’m. Not all of the men in there, but just some of them had that basic attitude. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [49:55] And my last and final question is, I know that you were injured inside the plant. Were you ever a part of the Sheltered Workshop, and if so, can you explain what the Shelter was? Karen Dunckel: The Sheltered Work Group? No, I was never put into the Sheltered Work Group. It was a group of people that had been injured in the plant and they had specific jobs that they would do off the line. Um, I don’t, I don’t recall ever bein’ actually classified in that, um, but one thing I can say about that program, there was a lotta people on the line that would call these individuals lame, lazy, uh... John Fedewa: [coughing] Karen Dunckel: ...[Jerry’s Kids 50:43], you name it; they categorized’m, and it used to just irk me, because the simple fact is, just like I would tell other employees, until you’re in that individual’s shoes [throat clearing] do not stand there and say that, ya know, they’re about nothin’, because that’s what it is. You have no idea what they are going through. Marilyn Coulter: [throat clearing] Thank you. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you very much, Karen. Michael Fleming: Thank you, Karen. Jerri Smith: Thank you. Karen Dunckel: You’re welcome. /rt