Carla Gates discusses her career as a skilled trades electrician and UAW member at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doreen Howard: Doreen Howard. It is October 13, 2005. It is 9:15 a.m. We are in the, uh, labor relations conference room at Fisher Body. Um, we will be interviewing Carla J. Gates. [0:21] Um, Carla, if you could, uh, say your, your name and spell your last name and your address for the record please? Carla Gates: Carla J. Gates. G-a-t-e-s. 2986 Beech Ridge Drive, Lansing, Michigan 48911. Doreen Howard: Okay. And go head... Linda Johnson: And I'm Linda Johnson one of the researchers also here in the room with Carla Gates. Doreen Howard: Okay. Um, let's start out with, um, [0:51] when did you hire in? Carla Gates: September 9, 1976. Doreen Howard: 1976. That's a long time ago. Um, think back on that very first day coming through those doors. [1:08] Give us your impressions of how it felt to come to work for General Motors that first day. Carla Gates: Actually, I go back a little bit farther than that. Doreen Howard: Wow. Carla Gates: When I came in to fill out the application and everybody was hollerin' out the windows when you came into the door wonderin' jeez do I really wanna go to work in this place 'cause it seemed kinda odd. Uh, so just a short time after that, I got a phone call, had to come down, um, Personnel. There was a small group of us, uh, in the office, probably less than 10, and I remember that most of – all but me, uh, they all went to trim, and they sent me to the body shop because they said I looked strong... Doreen Howard: [laughter] Linda Johnson: [laughter] Carla Gates: ...and they needed women in the body shop. Doreen Howard: Hm. Because you looked strong. Oh, that's funny. Um, so body shop. Um... Carla Gates: My impression of the body shop? Doreen Howard: Yeah. [2:06] Tell us a little bit about the body shop at that time. Carla Gates: The body shop was nicknamed the jungle, very appropriately. Uh, there were sparks everywhere. There were gigantic weld guns everywhere. I remember thinking what have I gotten myself into? Uh, it was very, uh, disconcerting. Uh, it was hard to know – everything kind of looked the same, so it was very easy to get lost, uh, and, uh, it, it was overwhelming. Very overwhelming, and scary too because, like I said, sparks were flying everywhere from all the weld equipment. Doreen Howard: Oh. [2:49] That – the first few days that you hired in, um, a lot of the areas, they tend to have, um, new-hire pranks. Did anybody try to pull any pranks on you when, when you first came in? Carla Gates: Well the very, the very first day that I was there, somebody took me out to the area where I was gonna work in, and the boss didn't really have anything to do yet, so he, he asked me ta, to, uh, stock up this bin of these parts, um, the assembly worker was putting on the, on the car. And so I was puttin' these parts in the bin not realizing that there was 2 separate parts and they were 'spose to go in certain places in the bin. So the guy let me get it all loaded and then he called the boss and said, "Hey, these are wrong," so he had to quit doin' his job. And, and I didn't get in trouble. Nobody yelled at me, and they all had a good laugh, but I guess that was probably the first prank, and it didn't take very long to happen, probably within the first 2 hours. Doreen Howard: [laughter] Yeah, yeah, people like doing that kinda stuff. [3:53] So what job did you end up getting put on? Carla Gates: I got a job where I, um, installed the roof bows and then welded the piece in the trunk that held the, uh, hinges for the trunk lid. Doreen Howard: Hm. [4:04] Describe a little bit what a hinge bolt is or... Carla Gates: Uh, the... Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 4:06]. Carla Gates: The roof, it was actually the roof bows were the support structures for the, uh, roof. Doreen Howard: Oh. Okay. Carla Gates: Okay. It's just lay those in there and then, uh, had to step onto the body truck that was carrying the body and, uh, bring your weld gun in there and, and then put some welds in on the, uh, on the piece that was holding the hinges for the trunk lid. Doreen Howard: Oh. Okay. [4:30] So was that, uh, a heavy job pulling that [welding 4:35]? Carla Gates: Oh yeah... Linda Johnson: ...gun? Carla Gates: ...it was pretty heavy. In the morning when you wake up, your hands would be kinda locked into position of the trigger of the gun and then pry them open and then do it again and then you'd pry it open. It'd usually take a little time in the morning before your hands kind of relaxed. Doreen Howard: [4:51] How old were you when you came in to the plant? Carla Gates: Eighteen. Just 18. Doreen Howard: Just 18. At that time, you said they needed women in the body shop. [5:06] So how were you, what was the reception like being one of the few women that were down there in the body shop at that time? Carla Gates: Well it was kinda interesting 'cause when you would walk through, the guys weren't used to havin' to use the locker room to change their clothes, so you'd walk through and they'd be standin' there in their skivvies puttin' on their coveralls, so I'd just walk by and wave. Doreen Howard: [laughter] Carla Gates: And I didn't get too excited about it and they, they didn't, they didn't care, I didn't care. Um, but, uh, the bosses did put a stop to it shortly after, not just me but as the number of women increased, they, they told'm they had to start usin' the locker room. But you could tell they weren't really accustomed to havin' women around, kinda doin' their own thing. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. [5:50] Now how long did you do that job in body shop? Carla Gates: Um, I, I only stayed on that job the, the first time for about 90 days 'cause at the same time, they were looking for female supervisors and, uh, they asked me if I wanted to be a supervisor, and I really didn't have a good handle on what that meant, but they said I could go to days, and so that was real exciting 'cause I played softball and you couldn't do that on second shift. And, uh, so I said, "Sure, I'll try it." So... Doreen Howard: So you did that for a while. Carla Gates: Yeah. I did that for about 4 years. Doreen Howard: Oh. Okay. So you weren't here very long, and they moved ya into the management. So that was probably, uh, a different experience going from being on the line to the opposite, of being the boss. Carla Gates: Yeah, it was very different. And, uh, they took me from the body shop where I actually understood kinda what was goin' on and, and put me in the [cushion 6:49] room where I didn't have a clue what was goin' on. It was a whole different world. And, uh, I was young enough to be most of the people that worked there's daughter, and fortunately they were all very kind because I didn't know any more about being a supervisor than I knew about being a doctor... Doreen Howard: [laughter] Carla Gates: ...and I couldn't have been a doctor, so. Doreen Howard: Okay. [7:00] So, um, you said you were there about 4 years and then [inaudible 7:12] then, then where did you move into after that? Carla Gates: Well back to, um, workin' production in the body shop. Um, I know I had a job, they had a hot sealer application, um, still in the body framing I believe they called it, for the body shop. Um, and started taking classes to prepare myself for the skilled trades test because I knew workin' on the line wasn't somethin' I wanted to do for my whole life. Doreen Howard: And, um, now [7:42] how long did your, you're currently a skilled trades employee, so how long did it take you from the initial time that you started, um, preparing yourself for, as far as education or the training, how long of a timeframe is it that you had to work on that as far as your training to prepare your, for skilled trades? Carla Gates: Well I actually started goin' to school and stuff to prepare myself to take the test like in 1980. Doreen Howard: Okay. Carla Gates: And so, uh, by the time I – I actually had to take the test more than once, but just continued taking classes and then in 1985, they offered me an apprenticeship in the electrical trade. Doreen Howard: Oh. Doreen Howard: [8:28] Now once you get offered an apprentice, uh, what does that mean and what does that entail with that? Carla Gates: The program can last up to 4 years. Um, in our case, I think most of us graduated in like 3 because there was overtime and it's based, it's an hours-based program. Uh, we took our training at, uh, Lansing Community College, and, um, then we had our, our field training with our electricians here at, in all the different departments in the plant. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. [9:00] Now as far as skilled trades, you said in the body shop you were one of few, uh, how many women were in the skilled trades at that time? Carla Gates: Not many and there's still not many. Um, at the time, um, I remember there being one female electrician and [papers rustling] there were, there was at least one, uh, maintenance supervisor, uh, a female maintenance supervisor that was an electrician. But those are really the only 2 that come to mind. Um, probably 10 or less now. Doreen Howard: [9:45] Um, tell me a little bit about, um, how did the males in that group, uh, receive women comin' in to their arena? Carla Gates: It was, it was interesting. At one, one situation that I remember really well was one of the older guys, and I, you know, older was a relative term [inaudible 10:10] I was much younger then and he probably wasn't as old as I thought. But I'm guessin' he was 62, and he had been in the trade for a long time and he was in the area where they did construction and I was assigned to work with him and we had to run a lotta wire, a lotta heavy, big wire on a job. And, and I, I don't know what he was thinkin' but I think he was concerned that I, that we were gonna be able to get this done. So I was convinced that no matter what, I was gonna be bustin' my butt, we were gonna do it, and he was gonna be proud of me by the time the day was over. And, uh, sure enough, um, you know, we worked together, everything went really well. And I was pretty young so I was strong enough to be able to keep up with the [inaudible 10:53] and stuff. And, uh, and by the time the day was over, he said, he said, "I was concerned, but I'm not now." And, uh, and, and I, I, I mean I felt like I just accomplished a major milestone because, you know, you get the, you get the blessing of the older guys and everybody else kind of falls in line because they all respected them. So, you know, if this guy's sayin', "Hey, she's all right," then you know, you know, you're gonna be all right. Because they kinda look out for ya too. And sure enough, that is what happened. Doreen Howard: [11:39] Now as an electrician, are you assigned to one specific area or do you go throughout the plant wherever your assignments take you or how does that work? Carla Gates: Traditionally, you, uh, you're either assigned to like the body shop, the paint department, the trim department. The only time that you might end up going anywhere is if you're assigned to the facilities group, and they would answer building maintenance electrical calls, which isn't an area that I chose to spend time in other than my apprenticeship. So most of my time was with the body shop. Doreen Howard: The body shop. So one way or the other, you pretty much stuck close to that body shop. Carla Gates: Yeah. Doreen Howard: Yeah. Carla Gates: It's familiar. Doreen Howard: Okay. [12:13] Were you ever, um, on any, uh, layoffs or any – at any time during your timeframe here? Carla Gates: Right when we topped out of our apprenticeship program, uh, we got laid off, and I'm thinkin' that musta been '88 and I was laid off for about 6 weeks. Um, it's the one time I remember. And then I was, when I was finishing my degree at MSU in '92, um, I think we were off for about 6 months. And, um, both times, uh, knowing that the chance a comin' back was very good that it wasn't a permanent situation. But the, uh, 6-month layoff allowed me to, uh, finish my degree much sooner than I had anticipated, and I was actually very grateful for the time. Doreen Howard: [13:09] What is your degree in? Carla Gates: Uh, it was a degree in psychology. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Linda Johnson: [13:16] Did – now is that unusual for the skilled trades to be off for an extended timeframe. Because usually, it seems like they always – when everybody else was laid off, they still had a lot of skilled trades people still here in the facility working. Carla Gates: And I think as a trades person, you probably have less likelihood of bein' laid off, but it's certainly, as technology increases [inaudible 13:44], you know, either increase or decrease the needs to trades people depending on what the technology is. So, but... Doreen Howard: [13:53] And you, you have found that to be true from the time when you first got on the trades till now that they made a lot of cutbacks in the amount of people due to technology? Carla Gates: Well it's, um, certainly ya do more with less people, um, and, you know, the trouble-shooting techniques have changed. Um, you have computer, um, laptops to assist where you used to have to do everything by hand. Now you have electronics to help. So, um, it's decreased the amount of, uh, travel time and, and, um, the actual time it takes to find problems. So, um, there's definitely been a decrease in the number of trades personnel and, and especially will be for Delta. Doreen Howard: [14:45] Now, um, do you have a partner that you work with in your trade? Carla Gates: Um, actually a lot of the time that I spent as an electrician in the body shop and front end sheet metal, it was a one-person station. So there wasn't, uh, there wasn't a partner per se, but if there was an issue that you couldn't deal with, there were troubleshooters you could call for backup and assistance. Doreen Howard: [15:13] Hm. Now on a, on a normal, average day, take me through a scenario what your typical day would be like. What were some of the things that you did on a typical day? Carla Gates: My, my day would start in the afternoon 'cause I was a second shift employee for the most part. Um, you'd arrive before the production, uh, people. Make sure all their equipment was, um, up and running and, uh, uh, for, um, stud weld guns and they had parts called collets that had to be changed so that the studs would stay where they were supposed to until they were actually used. And, um, like I said, make sure all their equipment was ready to go when they go here. And then I was on-demand maintenance for any trouble that they had during the evening, uh, if something wasn't workin' right, uh, if it just didn't feel right or anything that I could do to make their night, uh, go better was – you know, I enjoyed makin' their life easier and, and they, in turn, made my life easier because we all got along really well, and, you know, their equipment worked and we were all happy. Doreen Howard: That was, um, the next question that I was going to talk about. Um, [16:31] talk a little bit about the relationship between the skilled trades and the production people and your feelings on that. Carla Gates: The majority of the production people and I got along very well. My, my concern, um, the concerns I do have were when, uh, production people tried to do skilled trades jobs insofar as the things they were doing were dangerous not just, uh, "I don't want you do to it because it's my job," it's "I don't want you to do it because you could really hurt yourself and not realize what you're doing." And, you know, they pay me to take that risk, you know, why would you wanna risk your life to do that? [throat clearing] Yeah. People not understanding that by virtue of their actions that, that they could be fatally injured. So I would get very fustrated with that situation to the point that I physically, more than one time, moved a non-maintenance person out of the way so I could do my job. But it was definitely the minority and not the majority and, and just a couple of individuals that, that they were slow to learn that but eventually did learn, [after they didn't] [inaudible 17:43] get hurt and that, you know, they needed to call the proper people to fix their equipment and not just try to do it themself. Doreen Howard: [17:53] Um, talk a little bit about the safety background and training and some of the different things that you personally had to go through, um, in order ta keep up with changing regulations or whatever it is that you needed to do in order to perform your job. Carla Gates: Over the, uh, the last 20 years, um, there, there definitely has been a lot, especially in the electrical field as far as arc flash hazards and special clothing and special gloves and, um, knowing where to stand when ya, when ya throw a breaker or dealing with high voltage. Uh, initially, I mean, they, if they needed to turn off the high-voltage breakers, you just did it. Now you have to have special clothes and, uh, special training and, um, situations that, that were probably pretty dangerous and nobody knew, you know, you just did it because you, it was part of your job. Now you know that you have to have, you know, special clothing in the event that there's any kind of an arc flash because the damage from that, you may look like there's nothing wrong when, when you first get an electrical burn, but the, um, after 2 or 3, days, the damage starts to present itself. Your skin dies because you don't have blood supply. Your, your internal organs are all damaged and, uh, it's, it's not something you wanna have happen. Uh, that's why, that's why the – it's important to have training to do your job and that, that people that aren't trained that shouldn't do it and, um, – we have, we have now even wears special gloves you have to ear if you're dealing with, uh, 50 volts [inaudible 19:38] voltage or higher. Uh. So. But safety is very much an issue for electricians. Doreen Howard: [19:51] Um, tell me a little bit about, um, camaraderie and friendships that you developed over your time here. Carla Gates: Trades or everything? Doreen Howard: [20:04] Just with trades people, with production [inaudible 20:07], people you encounter throughout our day. Do you have any special, um, friends or people that you do hobbies with here in the plant or outside the plant you guys have [inaudible 20:19] friends? Carla Gates: Um, you know, you don't, you don't realize how important the people you work with are until you don't see'm for a while. When I was in training, uh, I was over at Building 66, so I didn't see the people every day that, that I was used to workin' with. And the days I'd come back to the body shop, I, I mean it would take me probably a good hour to get from the door just to where I needed to go 'cause there were so many people that I hadn't seen and you just have ta talk to them all and catch back up and visit. So, um, just know so many people. You can't go anywhere, anywhere, even if it's outta town, without runnin' into somebody that you know and work with that, you know, you have to have a conversation with and – but, um, I have probably, um, a small handful of friends that, that I deal with not only inside the plant but outside the plant as well. Um, my best friend was one a the troubleshooters when I was first an electrician, and we've been friends, I've been friends with his whole family. I watched his kids go from bein' kids to bein' adults and watchin' his granddaughter now become, you know, a kindergartener. So, you know, we've been good buddies now for 20 years and, uh... Doreen Howard: And part of the family. Carla Gates: Yeah. Yeah. It's a merging of family, you know. Doreen Howard: Hm. Carla Gates: So they're part of our family, we're part of theirs, and we're all part of the, you know, GM family. Doreen Howard: All right. [21:48] Um, now that our plant is closed and, give me a little bit of your feelings of the closure of our plant and, and what that means to you. Carla Gates: It's gonna be difficulty. I, uh, I have mixed emotions about bein' here when, when they start to tear it apart. I, uh, it's gonna be a significant day, but I don't know if I wanna see it. I do, but I don't, you know? This is, this – I spent more time here than anyplace ever, you know? Twenty-nine years is – I haven't had, I haven't had my house for 29 years, I've never been in one school for anywhere close to that, so, I mean, it's like home. It's, it'll be hard. Doreen Howard: A significant part of your life was spent here. Carla Gates: Yeah. Oh absolutely. Linda Johnson: [22:40] Will you be here when they're doing it? Is that part of your job? Carla Gates: Um, no, I'll already be at Delta, um, the Delta plant. So I won't have to be one of the ones tearin' it apart. That would, that would be exceptionally tough. I don't know if I could do that. I, that would be like hurtin' your mom, you know. I, I, I don't think I could do that. Doreen Howard: Um. Yes. Carla Gates: So. Doreen Howard: Um, you touched a little bit on the Delta plant. Um, you said you were going to continue over there. Um, [23:10] what will you be doing at the Delta plant when you get out there? Carla Gates: Um, I will be in the body shop again, um, as one of the team members. Um, I think they have 5 teams in the body shop. I'm not sure, uh, which area I'll be in. Not real familiar with them all yet. Um, and, and we're 'spose to rotate through all the areas anyway, so, uh, I look forward to the challenge. It's gonna be different. It's gonna be exciting. Uh, it, it'll be different than everything's so new versus some of the challenges because things were older. Doreen Howard: [23:53] Um, is there anything at all that, that you've wanted to talk about that you might wanna touch base on that we haven't talked about? Carla Gates: Oh, um, you said you like pranks... Doreen Howard: Yes I do like pranks. Carla Gates: ...so I'll, I'll share. I don't know if you'd really call it a prank – [throat clearing] excuse me – but the weld, the weld guns in the body shop were water cooled, and, uh, it didn't take most of us very long to figure out that if ya hit a piece a paper with the weld guns, the welding caps would stick and come off and so then you had a really nice high-pressured squirt gun that you could douse just about anybody you wanted with water if they were anywhere close. So our favorite trick was if we saw paper in the area we were supposed to be welding, you had to aim for it and hit it so you could pull that cap and, and spray somebody – accidentally, of course... Doreen Howard: [laughter] Carla Gates: ...that was close by. And, uh, the favorite time, of course, was when the supervisor was in the maintenance crib just on the other side of where the job was and, of course, you had to aim the gun away from the work area so the supervisor would get wet, and that was always kind of fun. They were pretty good natured about it. [laughter] Carla Gates: They knew what you were doin', but they took it in stride, and they would come out and scold you but not very hard. Doreen Howard: [25:11] Did you ever get involved in, um, any of the dinners or any of the other... Carla Gates: Absolutely. Doreen Howard: ...lunchtime activities? Some people did Bible studies or card games or, or anything like that. Did you do, what did you do for your lunches? Carla Gates: Um, jeez, boy that's a long time ago. Um, actually, at one time, and, and they put a stop to this pretty quick, but they let us do it for a while – is I was a softball player and there was a fella that was a fast-pitch softball pitcher for one of the local teams. And so he would practice pitchin', and I would catch for'm out in the body shop, and they didn't seem to think that was a good idea with all the metal, but we did it for a while and it was pretty fun. Um, I don't, I probably, I probably just ate lunch. I didn't do anything too exciting, but, um, dinner... Linda Johnson: [26:05] How 'bout... Carla Gates: ...go 'head. Linda Johnson: ...how 'bout those dinners maintenance was famous for having at the holidays, you know, where they'd take up the whole aisle way and they'd bring in all their retirees? Carla Gates: Um, the, the holiday dinners were great because it gave you a chance to see all the retirees that had, not, well probably not all but a lot of the reti-, people that had retired would come back in and you'd see'm and, you know, fortunately, you know, if they were able to be there, they were in pretty good health and it was nice to see them and know that they were enjoyin' their retirement and, uh, I mean it just, it's, I just, that sense of family. I mean, it was not only with maintenance but like with, with all the people here. I mean that's just the overwhelming thing I could think of is it's just been... Linda Johnson: [26:55] Were you known for a favorite dish to bring to one of these? Carla Gates: Hmmmm... Linda Johnson: That they'd say, "Carla, bring...?" Doreen Howard: [laughter] Carla Gates: No. I, I, I, cooking is not my strength... Doreen Howard: [laughter] Carla Gates: ...so, um... Linda Johnson: [Inaudible 27:04] cakes? Carla Gates: Um, actually, um, yeah. My mom was a better-known cook than I was. They, she could send in stuff that people enjoyed a lot. Um, cakes and, and muffins and stuff. Um, but the thing that I did like to do was just remember events, like people's birthday, you know, and do, and do something. Even if it wasn't a huge party. Um, bring in a cake and just make sure that their day was noticed and everybody knew it was a special day for'm. I had fun with that. Doreen Howard: [27:38] Um, you have a few different organizations and volunteer activities outside of the plant, um, can you go into a little bit of what you do for outside activities? Carla Gates: Well lately, um, my schooling has been a predominant activity, uh, my master's degree, which is nearly finished. But, um, prior to the beginning of that, I was very active with, um, the Fast Break Club, which is the fundraising group for MSU women's basketball. And, um, I was a very avid supporter, um, for that group for many years, and I got my nieces, who are now 21 and 26, uh, very involved with them at, you know, they were 4 or 5, so they spent their whole life supporting MSU women's basketball with their aunt thinking that was just very cool because they go to attend all sorts of functions with the players and, and see some really good role models for, um, for young women. Um, and it was, I think it was, benefited them immensely, and I know I enjoyed it. And, uh, and here last year they were at the Final Four. Doreen Howard: Yeah. Carla Gates: So you can't ask for any more than that. Doreen Howard: [28:57] In wrapping up here, um, is there any, uh, words of wisdom that, that you could offer to maybe some of the new people. I know that when we go to the Delta plant we may be getting some, some new people in there. Um, being a woman in the skill trades arena, some words of wisdom to new people coming in who may wish to get into that arena. Carla Gates: Um [sighing], education. I, I mean, education to me is extremely important. Um, GM UAW benefit is [inaudible 29:34]. It pays for classes. You can never have too much education. Nobody can ever take it away from you. Um, take the test, uh. You know, if you get an opportunity to go in skill trades, do it. Um, you know, remember you can always learn something from everybody even if you don't necessarily like who that person is, um, they can always teach you something. Um, have an open mind. Um, know you're gonna work hard. I mean, because it's not always easy. Um, sometimes people won't like you just because you're a woman. I think that's probably less and less now, but it can still happen, but I think if you just do your job and say, "Hey, you know, I'm here, I'm gonna work, I'm gonna do my job," um, that's, that's what we're all about. We're, we're all here, we all have a job to do, and, and, uh, get an education, and it get it done. That's... Doreen Howard: Very good. All right. Well thank you very much for your time. We appreciate talking with you and it's been very nice. Carla Gates: Thank you. Doreen Howard: Thank you. Linda Johnson: Thank you, Carla. /kj