Sally Grubaugh discusses her career as a production worker and UAW Ergonomics Representative at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doreen Howard: [recorder clicking] [background conversation] This is Doreen Howard. It's [clicking] December 6th, 2005. We're at, [clicking] uh, UAW Local [clicking] 602. Today we will [clicking] be interviewing Sally [Jo 0:10] Grubaugh. [clicking] Um, I'd like everyone to go around the [thumping] room and introduce themselves. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Doreen Howard: Okay. [0:23] Sally, can you please, uh, state your name and spell your last name, please? [background conversation] Sally Grubaugh: Okay. My name is Sally Grubaugh, G-R-U-B-A-U-G-H. [background conversation] Doreen Howard: Okay. [clicking] [0:38] Um, [clicking] [thumping] what's your seniority date, Sally? [thumping] [background movement] Sally Grubaugh: Um, 6/18 of '78 [clicking] was the final [background conversation] date they came up with. [background noises] Doreen Howard: Okay. [0:51] Do you remember your very first day of coming to the plant, and can you recall the [background conversation] circumstances around that day? [thumping] Sally Grubaugh: I, [laughter] yeah, it's like it was yesterday. Um, the circ-, um, walking in the plant [clicking] for the first time and smelling all the smells and hearing all the noises and all the [background conversation] different squeals and motors running and getting, uh – it, it was such a combination of smoke and people. [thumping] I mean, it was like [laughing] plastic smells, rubber smells. And I remember shaking in my boots because I'd never been in a factory environment. So, uh, the circumstances that actually led up to me, uh, coming there was I had been working for private doctors, and, uh, [tsk] I had just gone through a divorce and had 3 [clicking] young children that I needed to support along with myself. So, um, in fact, my mother was up here, and, uh, I was at work, and she said, "Fisher Body's hiring, but you need to get down there." So I took my lunch half hour in my office whites and came into the [inaudible 2:09] entrance, down the steps. And nobody else, of course, was in white [sniffing] like I was, white shoes, white [thumping] slacks, white top. Obviously, you know, I didn't come – I came from a [background movement] different environment. [laughter] And [Jerry Brooks 2:24] was at the table, and, uh, I filled out the form, and he said, uh, "You know this isn't quite like the work you been doing." And I said, [clicking] "Yeah, I realize that, but I've got 3 children to raise now, so I can do anything." [clicking] So about a w-, less than a week, they called me out to come to work. [background conversation] But like I said, when I walked in, [clicking] factory work was nothing I'd ever imagined, you know, after [thumping] bein' [in x-ray 2:51], that I'd be doin'. But I wasn't making enough money. Um, [clicking] in fact, uh, the insurance was gonna start coming outta my paycheck, and I was making $5.25 an hour. [background conversation] So I was awake nights tryin' ta figure out a budget, [background conversation] you know, what I could not do and do do, or [clicking] I was gonna be forced into working 2 jobs... [background conversation] Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...in order to support my family and keep the home I was in. [background conversation] So basically, [thumping] I came to Fisher Body for the wages, um, [background conversation] the pension that I probably would've never had working for private doctors, and the insurance. [background conversation] So and I was willing to work and do anything, [laughter] so... [background conversation] Doreen Howard: S-, so that first day, you said you came in and all the sights and sounds and smells that you were unfamiliar with. [3:45] What department [thumping] did [thumping] they put you in, and, and [clicking] describe a little bit of the job that, [thumping] that they [thumping] put you on. [laughter] [coughing] Sally Grubaugh: Oh, that's a good one. Well the first day, [thumping] it was in the Trim Department. It was on the day shift. [background conversations] The first day, they put me doing [clicking] like a pickup job with another individual. [background movement] In fact, he's, [thumping] he's deceased. I remember who it was. Um, [clicking] [tsk] and I worked that day on this job, and it was just bits and pieces. It wasn't [background movement] anything that, uh, you'd probably label a job [clicking] now, but, you know, it was my first day there. And the one thing [laughter] I remember, for that first month, I didn't vary going in [thumping] and out of the plant. [clicking] If you think, the size of the plant is like how many blocks long, and I thought if I ever get lost, [background noises] I will never find my way [laughter] [clicking] out. So [laughter]... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...I kept the same pattern in and out and didn't vary one leg. But, um, [background conversation] the next, the next day, [background movement] to go on with the story, um, they put me on trunk rubbers, and back in those days, trunk rubbers were like tire rubbers. [clicking] They had a metal cord that went through them. And the fellow that broke me in musta been fighting the job because he, uh – for one thing, I was a female, [thumping] and I don't think he was real thrilled about, you know, breaking in a female on his job. And, um, he showed me the absolute worst way of doing it. That's all I got to say. This was like, I went on the job Tuesday, and we were working Saturdays. Back in those days, it was a lotta overtime, and you were workin' 6 days a week. [clicking] And, um, anyway, [background movement] [tsk] um, you had to – basically, he told me to beat this rubber, um, with my hand and go all the way around [background movement] the circumference. It was every other job. And then you had to cut it to fit through a metal wire, and they gave you these non-ergonomic, great [clicking] big sheers that you had to use 2 hands on to get through that metal. [thumping] And then you [clicking] [bonded it all 6:04] [thumping] together. [thumping] Plus you had to put sealer on prior to that. Well [thumping] by the time Saturday came up, every muscle and part of my body was screaming, but I knew better than to go to Medical. [thumping] I mean, I slept with my arms crossed on [laughter] [clicking] my chest, and by, [thumping] oh, 2 or, 2:00 or whatever it was, I mean, every part of my body – I couldn't hardly get my thumb to even move, you know, on the sealer gun. Well then the folks around me [thumping] started comin' [thumping] up there and helpin' me and showin' me an easier way of doin' it. [thumping] But they let me get through [thumping] those first [laughter] 2 or 3 days struggling like [thumping] crazy, and then they came to my rescue [thumping] when they could see [clicking] that I was really getting frustrating and hurting. Then they came around [clicking] to show me the better way of doing things [clicking] and not to do it the way that I was instructed. So [thumping] I stayed on this job until – course this was like the middle of October. [thumping] You know, the whole thing was to get your 90 days in, [thumping] but what I didn't know at the time was they hired a lot of people and then they laid'm off, gave'm a pink slip before they could get [thumping] that 90 days in. [thumping] So the day before Thanksgiving, when I thought I had everything, I mean, everything was goin' smooth, and I had that job [thumping] right down pat is when I got my slip ta [background movement] go out the door again, [clicking] which was a big surprise to me. But prior to that, I put – [clicking] my supervisor [clicking] had asked me to put [clicking] in a slip for [background movement] supervision 'cause he thought I got along [clicking] with people and I'd make a good supervisor. [background movement] [tsk] So I hung out there for several months, drawing unemployment [thumping] and hating it. The first time in my life I ever had to go in, stand in line, and go to the unemployment [clicking] desk. And people kinda treated you like you were a, somebody that had been on [clicking] em-, [laughing] unemployment all your life, which I hadn't. But then I got a call to come in for an interview for supervision. [tsk] I, this was in January, and, um, I'd been calling back to the plant to see i-, you know, when I was gonna [clicking] come back to work 'cause I was really getting edgy. But, um, f-, uh, I went through this in January, and [clicking] I got called up in February and told I was selected [clicking] to go through supervision training. [clicking] So in March I started that, and, um, [clicking] fortunately that gave me some time onto my plant time that I wasn't getting being laid off 'cause I hadn't gotten called back. So I went [thumping] through 3 months of training, and that's how I wound up with June of [clicking] '78 seniority. At the end of the supervision training, I was asked – well they were [clicking] telling me they would put me on per diem, but they already had preselected the people they wanted to go on. I'll just put it that way. So I saw no security in that, and I – and they wanted me to go on, and I said, [clicking] "No, I don't wanna go on per diem." [clicking] [tsk] And, um, it was [Frank Mie 9:18]. He was quite a [thumping] person. [laughter] And, uh, I said, "No, I wanna [thumping] go back to the line." So I had ta sign a statement that I didn't want supervision, that I wanted to go back [thumping] to the line. So that's what I did come July after changeover. I wasn't clued in enough to [clicking] know that you could work changeover and [thumping] gain some time. So I went back to the line, [thumping] and I felt a lot more secure that I had a union, and I had somebody to back me up, and I wasn't gonna be used back and forth. The other [thumping] thing that I think I realized through the training was [clicking] I was a people person. And I could see that there weren't that many females in supervision back in those days, and I just didn't see any future of me getting any farther than a first-line supervisor [clicking] because I would fight for the people on the floor. [laughter] And I don't think I would've gotten very far, but [maybe 10:17] years of doing that. So I went back to work on the line, [clicking] and I, and I worked on the line for [clicking] a little over 9 years before I got the Ergonomics position, so. [tsk] And that was wonderful. [laughter] Doreen Howard: [10:33] And you said you'd [clicking] started in Ergonomics [clicking] in what year? [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: 1987. [thumping] One of the first 2 people. [clicking] Actually, Ron Grubaugh, [clicking] who I'm not related to, [laughter] he, uh, was working in – [clicking] I mean, he and I were the first 2 people put on Ergonomics. [tsk] [clicking] And we basically were flying by the seat of our pants for a couple [clicking] a years, [clicking] 2 or 3 years, before they actually put into effect a kind [clicking] of dictated or, you know, program that came from. But I think [thumping] we got a lot accomplished in those 3 years. We, [thumping] we made a lotta major improvements. Um, one example was, and there may be people that disagree with me, but at the time, they had Makitas [clicking] all over. They had Makita motors, and we were driving self-tapping screws with Makitas. Now [clicking] the good thing about Makitas was you could move with'm and not be, [clicking] you know, limited to, to a whatever foot-long, and I can't [laughter] remember, 8-foot, [laughter] 10-foot, whatever the dimensions [thumping] were at that time. They had long hoses on the floor. [clicking] Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: I mean, [laughter] all over the place... Doreen Howard: Now what... Sally Grubaugh: ...you know. Doreen Howard: [11:55]...what is a Makita? Can you... Sally Grubaugh: Makita... Doreen Howard: ...explain what it is? Sally Grubaugh: ...is a battery-powered tool. I remember they were green. I mean, they were all over the place. People liked'm because they could move with'm and not be [clicking] limited by that hose. But the problem was, [thumping] you know, they weren't powerful enough to drive some of the things that they, they were doing. And, and, uh, we replaced'm with some [clicking] good air tools, unless they were people that really needed that mobility, [clicking] like repair people and stuff. But we could see that the figures were going down [clicking] significantly from just that change and getting some good air motors. And w-, we went all the way through Trim [thumping] [clicking] getting different motors, an-, and, [clicking] uh, devising some plans, um, starting to work on other things. But that was the, probably the first major [thumping] thing we did. In the Body Shop, one of the biggest problems down there was silicon bronze and all the back picking and stuff, and that was a major injury, um, s-, area. [thumping] And, um, [clicking] uh, there wasn't a whole lot. [clicking] Basically, what they did was they threw people at it, and throwing people at it and not being able to fix it, we had tons of injuries. But that's the way that th-, they did things in those days. [clicking] So, um, the posture was awkward. They actually had to reach [background movement] [clicking] inside the car with a back pick and a hammer [clicking] to get the seam that was on the inside [clicking] of the [sail 13:39] area, which would be the back [thumping] upper quarter, and back pick and even out that seam. [clicking] So there were lots and lots of injuries. [clicking] And once that went away, we thought, "Well good. We're never gonna have this problem again." [clicking] But in the wisdom of upper engineering, [laughter] we got that problem back. But it wasn't back picking, but it was grinding off the silicon bronze seam, and that was just in recent years. And guess what? [thumping] We had more injuries. So [clicking] sometimes there's wisdom [clicking] in history that people don't [clicking] seem to grasp or m-, maybe, um, the engineers that came up with this plan were not aware [clicking] of all the history and injuries. Now the people in this plant, maybe not management, but [clicking] were well aware of what [background movement] happened during those early days. But, um, [clicking] you know, um, sometimes things [clicking] like that get overlooked, so... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: And even modern technology didn't take all of it away, [sniffing] so [clicking] robotic sprayers, end controls [clicking] and stuff that were supposed to, you know, check that so we wouldn't have as much grinding to do. Well it didn't always work out as planned. [clicking] The people still were the people that still had to clean up those seams and fill'm in an-, and [clicking] make'm so we had a quality car goin' out the door, [tsk] so... Doreen Howard: [15:20] N-, over your time frame of being in the Ergonomics Department, how did that department change, [thumping] um, over time? And you said [thumping] you started out with 2 people... Sally Grubaugh: Yeah. Doreen Howard: ...in that [thumping] department. [15:33] And it's [throat clearing] quite a large department at this time, is it not? Sally Grubaugh: [Nah, or... 15:38] Doreen Howard: Or no? [background conversation] [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: No, but we started with 2, and then we put on a third [clicking] person later. Um, [tsk], uh, and then at one time, we had to go out there and analyze every single job in the plant, so we put on some ergonomic monitors as well because we had to do checklists [clicking] on every job... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...in the plant. And at the time, this was in the, um, [thumping] early 90s. So that was an awesome job and an awesome task, you know, to go out [clicking] and see where we were at ergonomically [clicking] by checklist. Doreen Howard: Hm. Sally Grubaugh: I think those checklists a lot of times [clicking] failed in some respects to show really what was happening out there. Even... Doreen Howard: Hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...the current checklist fails that. But, um, it's – let me see. At the time, I think we had 3, um, Ergonomics representatives, and [then we had 15:40] 3 monitors... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...to, uh, get that job done. [clicking] And then after that job [clicking] was completed, then the [clicking] monitors went away, and we went back to 3 people. And we've [clicking] had people and lost people or people got, [thumping] you know, went outta there and came into there. So, um, [throat clearing] at the [clicking] very end [laughter] of the car assembly run, I was the only person left there for a number of months. Uh, [clicking] one person came on for a few months but went over to Delta, but basically the last [clicking] year or so, I was the one tryin' ta [clicking] cover most of... Doreen Howard: Hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...along with the salary Ergonomics person, ta cover [thumping] the plant. So it was kind of a depressing but awesome [laughter] [clicking] task. Doreen Howard: Doug? Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. [clicking] Sally, I've worked in there 27 years with you and, of course, uh, [background movement] appreciate all you have done. I was just curious, could you [thumping] talk about – you said you hired in on the assembly line, you got a chance to come back and, and learn about how they do [clicking] front line supervision. Sally Grubaugh: Mm-hm. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: Then you got this opportunity to go into this ergonomics field... Sally Grubaugh: Hm. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: ...and there were no guidelines at the start. But [clicking] I had a number of jobs, and I know, uh, it had to be very stressful. I know that you were tryin' ta help people, but can you talk about the type of, um – [clicking] [tsk] when you would walk up to a job where someone has said that this job is hurting them. [18:22] I know many times you were [clicking] faced with people that were angry and stuff. Can you talk about that? [background movement] Sally Grubaugh: Well, you know, I worked on that line, so believe me, I believed in those people out on that line. And I had a, um, high respect that, you know, I was a resource. [clicking] And I can only remember one time that I actually told an individual that, you know, I would come back [clicking] once he settled down because he was absolutely just, you know, just not able to talk to him. And I explained [clicking] to him I was there as a resource to help him, but, um, I realized that he must have a problem, but, you know. [background movement] But that was the only individual that I really had to walk away from. I think [clicking] what people need [clicking] is that respect [clicking] to sit them down [clicking] and find out what's actually going on and what the problem is. Sometimes it was an ergonomics issue. Sometimes it was not. It was a job loading issue or whatever, but, you know, people deserve that time and that investment to go out and, uh, hear them out and see what you could do to fix the problem. [clicking] So, um, you know, there's a – [thumping] a lot of times it was th-, they – you were the first person that finally was there that they can vent [clicking] or listen to them. [clicking] And by the time possibly you got there, [background movement] they had gone through other resources and were [thumping] completely frustrated, you know, [thumping] whether it was a supervisor, whether it was Engineering, you know. And of all th-, [thumping] of all the issues I think that I heard the [clicking] most of were parts that were [in spec 20:12], meaning, you know, that there's a cert-, [thumping] certain area [clicking] where the vendors are [thumping] allowed to run these parts. Now if you get parts at one end, you can [background movement] probably put them on very [thumping] easily. But if they're on the other end of those guidelines, [thumping] you're literally [clicking] squeezing, hammering, and pushing them on. Well many times [clicking] they were told those parts were [in spec 20:41], you know. So [coughing] but they were on the [background movement] one extreme side. [clicking] And if there's anything [background movement] I, I think that anybody could do – I mean, there were times I couldn't do anything because that was what you would run into, and, [thumping] and you'd go in there and ask Engineering, "Can you close up those [specs 21:02]? [background movement] Can you get it down to this end? [clicking] Can you keep'm [thumping] within these limits?" [thumping] Well no. [thumping] They tried to, [clicking] but that doesn't mean that's what's comin' in that day, [thumping] you know. And they'd try to go out and find good parts and [thumping] put'm on the line, but in the meantime, after a day or two of getting these bad quality parts, you've got 3, 4 or half a dozen people down to Medical [clicking] because they can't do it that way and do it without hurting themselves. Doug Rademacher: You know, Sally, you said that [creaking] you recognized, as did management, recognized problems in the build process, and they just kept [clicking] throwing bodies at it, and you'd get injuries, and then they'd throw more [clicking] bodies at it rather than – [clicking] you just said how difficult it was to get a change in a part or something. [21:46] So [clicking] the – [clicking] can you give someone that's never been in an assembly plant or built a car, just the – you were talkin' about the frustration, but is there like a timeline [clicking] when you recognized a problem and the amount of [clicking] work that went into changing it, is – [clicking] there was something called a 6-month letter. I just was wondering, you know... Sally Grubaugh: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: ...I went through that myself, so I was wondering if you could maybe [clicking] share about that. So when a person is [thumping] at the, at the end... Sally Grubaugh: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: ...of their wits, [thumping] and they're struggling to do a job, [clicking] and yet you're given this, [clicking] what they call is a... Sally Grubaugh: Six-month timeline, yes. Actually, that was to give people, or [thumping] Engineering the opportunity to put some changes in with a 6-month [clicking] limit, you know, to allow them time. [clicking] That doesn't mean we didn't have more injuries, but that was the way it was set up with the Ergonomics Program. [clicking] Um, later on and more recently, um, there was still kind of a 6-month time frame, but platform, which I mean Engineering above the plant level. [clicking] Once we opened a job that we said that we had an ergonomics [clicking] problem and we stated that problem, whether it was Engineering or [clicking] not, they kept track of, you know, if we had a solution to the problem, how long that time frame was [background movement] to get that solution done, [clicking] you know. So they st-, stayed on top of the managers and the plan to then rectify or resolve this problem and know where this was going. Before that, it was like a turkey shoot, you know. [clicking] I mean, some people just didn't take Ergonomics that seriously, and there were many times I came back to that office and just wanna tear [laughter] things apart or tear [laughter] managers apart. They'd tell you one thing and then [clicking] not act on it or tell their upper, [thumping] say, plant manager [creaking] something totally different than wh-, what was actually happening. [background movement] And they allowed us 1 meeting a month in a staff meeting [clicking] that you felt like very not welcome – they wanted to get you in and out of there – to let them know what was goin' on with Ergonomics. [clicking] And, um, you know, you didn't often get a warm, fuzzy feeling. [clicking] You know, you tried ta present to them, but they didn't wanna hear too many details. They wanted you in there and out of there, and about the only time you got into details was if the union asked you [clicking] questions about what was goin' on or you volunteered some information, you know. [clicking] But, um, [tinkling] [tsk] that's where the 6-month time frame – and that was frustrating for a lot of people because it was like, you know, you'd try to look for other avenues [clicking] of getting it done besides this [thumping] 6-month time frame a lotta times. And there was a lot of times I didn't take no as an answer. If somebody told me no, then I was gonna find somebody else that would help work with me and try to get, whether it was a supervisor, whether it was an engineer, I didn't care who it was. If they could do it and help me, [clicking] you know, get it fixed in a faster time frame, then I was willing to run with it. But there was a lot of times that that didn't happen half as fast or even, you know, as what [clicking] I would've like happen. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: [25:30] Was there ever a time where you [thumping] approached Skilled Trades and t-, took a task on yourself rather than following the procedure? Sally Grubaugh: [laughter] Oh, yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Well I mean, [thumping] you know, when, yes. [throat clearing] Go grab somebody and say, "Hey," [clicking] you know. There were tools and [clicking] stuff that I had made that, you know, ta help put in parts that weren't goin' in easy. And, [clicking] and I think another frustration I had was when we made these small tools and things, they never ca-, kept any record [clicking] that we'd made these tools and had another one standing by [thumping] so they can make more as we needed'm. [clicking] I put in a suggestion to the effect [clicking] that they keep track and have a print or something in there so when we went back there, I wouldn't have ta – [clicking] well I got smart and started keepin' a few on my desk because, you know, the people would hand'm out and they'd be [thumping] gone. They'd move on, but they'd keep the tools with'm, [laughter] [background movement] you know. [sniffing] But then you go back to Tooling, "Well gee, can you bring me another one because I don't know what we made 'cause so and so made it." [thumping] And I'm goin' like [sighing] [thumping] well why didn't we keep a print or something so we knew what we had made so we're not back out there, you know, [background movement] reinventing the wheel, so to speak. [background movement] So, uh, I put in a suggestion. That was [thumping] turned down. [clicking] It cost too much money to do [clicking] that, even though the other plant on the other side had done it [clicking] all the time. In fact, toolmakers had told me. [laughter] But, you know, so much for life. So I just managed to keep, try to keep at least one of those tools on my desk so I could, you know, or a half dozen so I'd have more ahead so I could have'm to hand out. [background movement] Doug Rademacher: Sally, um, [clicking] Doreen had referred to it earlier, [clicking] uh, about the changes you've seen. As far as ergonomics, the corporation and the union, they say the, [clicking] th-, their job, one is to get you home safely. They want you to go home the way you came in. [27:43] Did you see, uh, [sniffing] a time [clicking] in history where [clicking] that actually took place? I know we have our monthly [background movement] safety review on how [clicking] not to burn down your home or how not to trip over something, but [clicking] did you, did you feel [clicking] there was a time when [clicking] there was a true effort put into [clicking] caring about the worker on the line? Sally Grubaugh: [sighing] [laughter] [clicking] Oh, goodness. [sighing] [clicking] I wanted to believe there were people that really truly cared about that worker on that line [clicking] because I was representing them. [background movement] You know, [thumping] there were many times [clicking] where I felt just the opposite. In fact, there were many time – I even got laughed at [background movement] when I got upset by one individual [background conversation] and... Female: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...was laughing at me. And if there was ever a time I wanted to meet somebody out in the parking lot and put my, you know, boxing – well there was more than one, but [thumping] that – this has been more recently, you know, after we went through the effort of finally getting something in place after [background movement] years, and then [sighing] he shipped this equipment to the other side, and our people [laughter] – they weren't even gonna put it up. They were gonna ship it to the other side, you know, on the other system. A-, and [background movement] I called him up, and I asked him, "Is this true?" And, "Oh, yeah. Yep, we're movin' it over there now." And [thumping] I said, "Well you know, we need the other – we built this equipment for the other system as well." [thumping] And "Well, you know, we're not gonna spend the money ta put it up and then take it down in a month or two." So, uh, that was about the time I wrote [thumping] a letter to the, uh, plant manager [thumping] and said, "You know what? [clicking] People don't deserve to be treated like this." [background movement] The only problem that came back to bite me [background movement] by the time they got it [background movement] hung up there, [clicking] [tsk] the people were so mad about losing their jobs that they didn't wanna use the equipment now, so [laughter] [thumping] you know. [laughter] Sometimes you feel like [clicking] you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. But, you know, the effort was there, [clicking] and, uh, [clicking] and like I said, there were [thumping] several times that I just, I knew there was no getting to some individuals because it was like beam me up, Scotty. There's no sign of intelligent life here. [background movement] So I couldn't beat any [laughter] sense into'm, but I still had a job to do [clicking] for those people on the floor. [clicking] And you don't know how [background movement] many times I just went back there so frustrated I was in tears, and I was angry, and I, [thumping] you know. [clicking] I didn't know what to do or what resource I had, [background conversation] you know. And, [background movement] you know, [clicking] sometimes I felt I was the only one in this boat, [thumping] you know, 'cause I had to do the job, [background movement] you know. And [tsk] I got it done the best I could with the resources I had. That's all I can say. But no, I don't think that that statement about the safety [throat clearing] is always pertaining to the ergonomics portion of repetitive workload [clicking] and recovery time issues that nobody even wants to hear about anymore. But I do [throat clearing] believe if, if [thumping] they keep cutting jobs out, and that's the only significant way of cutting costs, [background movement] then we're in big trouble because they're gonna hurt more people in the process and burn'm out sooner, unless they can [clicking] guarantee good parts and good things for those times that they're saying that people can get that job done. [scraping] Because people cannot get that job done if they're struggling [clicking] on that assembly line to get, [clicking] to do the job that they would do in a heartbeat 150% if they had the re-, [clicking] right resources and right equipment. [clicking] And that I believe [thumping] as much as, you know, all the years I worked doin' it. [background movement] I believe that. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: [tsk] Well this is a, a good [thumping] story and where you're going, and I understand [tsk] that you're talking, you know, you're [background movement] gonna retire now. [clicking] But I wanna go into some thoughts and make you go to a place in happy time. [32:18] Can you talk about some good times [laughter] you had? [laughter] Times with the people, friends you've made, [scraping] things that happened... Sally Grubaugh: I'm... Doug Rademacher: ...on a, [clicking] maybe a weekly basis that were kinda fun? [clicking] [scratching] Sally Grubaugh: Actually, the most fun I had was when I worked on the assembly line [laughter] and, uh, the camaraderie. [clicking] I miss that, [thumping] you know, and the job I did. Um, [tsk] we had all kinds a – I mean, there was all kinds of, [thumping] um, [clicking] people out there. I remember one in particular, [sniffing] [tsk] and the people that they brought in on tours, and God love'm. I think, you know, I don't think they sometimes really realized that we were people [thumping] just like them workin' on the line. They didn't know what – but there were some, there were some people that tried to make, make it out like we were animals. [laughter] And there was one in particular. [laughter] As soon as that tour bus would go by, he'd reach over – this was a guy – [thumping] and he would kiss another guy. So this [clicking] poor tour bus would see this, [laughter] and you could see the expression [laughter] [thumping] on those people's face. [laughter] [thumping] They were goin', [thumping] "Oh, no," you know. [laughter] But it was just this one particular [clicking] individual was just a crack-up, and uh, [sniffing] 'cause, uh, [sniffing] we never know what to expect outta him. But usually [background movement] it was something you could laugh at [laughter] and just go those people really must think we're animals in here now, you know, [laughter] [inaudible 34:00] doin' that. [clicking] But, um, [sniffing] oh, shoot. There were – [sighing] I'm tryin' ta think back those first 9 or so years. Um, I look forward to [clicking] comin' into the plant. I look forward to bein' around the people. I did on Ergonomics too. I mean, I think [sighing] I enjoyed goin-, for the most part, talking to the people and communicating to [thumping] the people out there. [thumping] That was what made me go. It still does. That's why I'm gonna have to find myself a part-time job [background movement] out there doin' somethin' somewhere [clicking] and, uh, [clicking] bein' appreciated [background movement] somewhere, [sniffing] so I'm gonna do that. [clicking] But talkin' to the people, [clicking] interacting with the people, and doin' what I could do for the people [background noises] all those years was what kept me goin'. When I was on empty, [scratching] you know, there was always those individuals when you're runnin' on empty that would fu-, [laughter] you know, that would give you a hug or when you're ready to throw in the towel, and God knows I was [laughter] I don't know how [thumping] many times. But, um, you know, there was that somebody said somethin' [clicking] that revived all that frustration, and you [clicking] said, "You know what? I'm goin' out there, [clicking] and I'm not takin' no for an answer, and I'm gonna hit it again," you know. [sniffing] But, uh, [clicking] there were fun times, but those – [laughter] I think most of the fun times were those first 9 years when I was out there and kidding around and, [clicking] and, [clicking] oh, somebody [clicking] had music on and they, they, you know, [clicking] uh, dancin' around, you know, when the [clicking] line'd go down or, or, which wasn't that often after so many years. But, [background conversation] [tsk] you know, there was a lotta good times, and there's a lotta really super [thumping] good, good people out there. So, um, [tsk] you know, that's why I still continue to believe in the people out there from all [clicking] facets of life, from all [clicking] ethnic backgrounds. I mean, it, it, it's – [sighing] I met all kinds of people, and that was great. Doug Rademacher: I wanna ask you [clicking] before, uh – I know the ladies wanna get into this [background movement] interview a little bit, but I want you to talk about the union [clicking] and [clicking] what's [clicking] the union's – [sniffing] [clicking] what did you see in the union? You saw many different union reps, um. [laughter] The... Sally Grubaugh: Tons. Doug Rademacher: ...the style of representation has changed. [clicking] [36:39] What do you think about [background movement] the union and its efforts to help the worker? [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: Hm. [tsk] I think, [thumping], uh, there again you're dealing with different individuals, [clicking] you know. And, uh, uh, [thumping] I guess I'd say, to be honest, I think, uh, some people have their own agendas, [clicking] [laughter] you know, politically to be re-elected, and some people were out there doin' what they needed to do. [clicking] So has the style changed? Has the politics gone away? [clicking] No, it never will. Um, I think there were some really [background movement] good people in there that did the job, you know, and did – were out there for the benefit of those people on the floor and would do anything for them. [clicking] And, uh, there were some people that I think were cruising, [laughter] you know, that they did what they had to do, [clicking] but I don't think, um, sometimes their motives or their – they had other agendas. But [background movement] I, that's just my own personal. But, I mean, I went – I worked with I don't know how many union people. [background movement] I think I'll have to say for the most part, mo-, people started in, [clicking] [background conversation] you know, wanting to do what they could, but because of some limitations to what they can do and how you work [clicking] with – and, and the limitations of the managers you're working with. [clicking]. Because if the manager doesn't [clicking] believe in this or that [clicking] or the people on that floor being other [background movement] than robots, you know, you're not gonna get anywhere with that particular manager, unless you go over their head [background conversation] and explain what's not happening there [coughing] [thumping]. But I think a lot of the time, we didn't have the opportunity to get back to the union [thumping] or the, for the union to check in and say, "Well [background conversation] sit down and have a cup of coffee with you and find out what's really goin' on." [clicking] In more recent times, you didn't have that opportunity. [clicking] You just did your job, don't ask questions, and just produce what, [clicking] whatever you're asked to produce, so [clicking] you know. Sometimes I think there were some gains, and sometimes I think we went backwards. [thumping] [background conversation] So that's only my personal opinion, [coughing] but I believe, [background conversation] I believe if things had happened differently, then I'd be over at Delta right now [background conversation] instead of retiring. [clicking] But I got burned out, and nobody asked me why or how the job was going, [clicking] you know. I had to rely on salaried folks to get some things done where I couldn't rely on the union [clicking] folks. [coughing] So [clicking] you know, and nobody re-, really ever came to me and asked me after 18 years of experience if [throat clearing] that was [clicking] anything they could use over there. So [creaking] that's the truth. Doreen Howard: Doreen Howard. Um, Fisher Body [clicking] has always been called the capital of quality. [tsk] [40:01] How do you feel about that statement in – [thumping] from the ergonomics aspect of it? And... [background movement] Sally Grubaugh: Fisher Body has always, you know – the sad thing is that plant's going down. [background movement] It's gonna be destroyed. I can't take my kids over there. Well my kids have been there, but my grandkids or even future grandchildren, [clicking] uh, over there and say, "This is where your grandmother worked and before that her father worked before World War II," which I didn't find out until I came to work here. [clicking] But, um, as far as a capital of quality, [throat clearing] I believe in the people of Lansing, the workforce that has been disrupted and split up and sent all over the, you know, due to the circumstances and the changing times, Oldsmobile going away, although we're fortunate they have 2 new plants. [background movement] Um, but that quality is with those people on that assembly line. It's not the people should be supporting them, [background movement] the managers, [thumping] you know, and supporting them with products, um, quality parts and things so that they can produce, [background movement] you know, these quality products. [clicking] And there are some limitations to [clicking] just how much you can get out of these people without literally breaking [clicking] them. So I hope at some time, some point in time that somebody gets smart and decides that maybe, um, [clicking] you know, maybe loading jobs and reducing jobs isn't the only where, where things can be cut or, or, [throat clearing] you know. You're gonna have to look at other areas. [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [clicking] Sally, do you [clicking] – you mentioned that you did trunk rubbers. [laughter] [41:54] Um, do you remember some of the other jobs you did, [background conversation] and did you ever do any jobs that were ergonomically incorrect? [background conversation] Sally Grubaugh: [laughter] Oh, my goodness. [clicking] I've, um, [background movement] got a thumb here that, back in the, uh, Cushion Room, that, um, hog ringing. [clicking] [laughter] There were plenty a jobs that were, would not have been considered [clicking] correct, [clicking] so, um, [clicking] that I did. Regulators, [clicking] um, [background conversation] you know, we worked very hard [clicking] to get that Door Line set up, [clicking] get doors off, proving that we had an injury history because of trying to be in those doors [clicking] and accommodate [clicking] those arms goin' in those small [background movement] holes that, you know. There were, there were a lotta awkward, hard postures. So we got the Door Line set up to alleviate some of that, you know, and get a better height situation. And then lo and behold, somebody comes up with the idea of puttin' the doors back on the car and putting the rear door, of all [creaking] of'm, back on the car where you've got the least amount a room. [clicking] So, um, [beeping] you know, there were things, and I, I guess that was another one of the frustrating – you get things done, you know. There's such a thing as lessons learned. [clicking] Well apparently, [clicking] whoever comes up with some of these bright ideas never had any lessons learned. They thought it was gonna be a cost savings, [background movement] even though we presented [clicking] to staff. I did-, I wasn't a part of that. The presentation was made, the numbers were [clicking] pulled up to show [thumping] how much we had saved in injuries [thumping] with having that Door Line. And they still went ahead and put that door back on the car [clicking] because they were determined there was a cost savings there. [background movement] And I think they proved out that [clicking] that cost savings was not [clicking] what they had. [recorder clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: Sally, could you tell us a little bit more [background movement] about the [clicking] first – [clicking] I'm sorry, Cheryl McQuaid. [laughter] [44:09] Sally, would you tell us a little bit more about the first [clicking] 9 years? Um, [clicking] you talked about [clicking] trunk rubbers and bein' in the Cushion Room, hog ringin'. [clicking] Could you tell us a little bit [clicking] about maybe your first supervisor or your favorite supervisor [thumping] and why he was a favorite supervisor? [background conversation] [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: Okay. Well I did have some favorite supervisors, and the one [clicking] that I remember probably the most [thumping] was, um, [tsk] [background movement] Bob [laughter] – I'm tryin' ta think [thumping] of his last name is. [thumping] His son [clicking] works up in Paint. [Blummer 44:45]. Cheryl McQuaid: Blummer? [thumping] Sally Grubaugh: Blummer. [clicking] Um, in fact, I was laid off for a [thumping] time, and Bob made sure that he [clicking] got me in his area. [background movement] And this was a time when we [clicking] were in Trim, and we had this great big Bertha press [background conversation] up there wh-, that was broken down more than it ever worked. And, um, [clicking] Bob was a character. [clicking] Um, we were out there hand [background movement] beating out, cutting out holes [clicking] with like a [clicking] maul [thumping] and a cutting – finally they [clicking], Skilled Trades come in, come up with these tools that we had ta [background movement] literally beat [clicking] holes out because this press wasn't workin' a good majority of the time. And, um, [thumping] I mean, we were workin' our butts off [clicking] to try to keep the line going. But Bob was the kind of person, you'd do anything for him, you know. And he'd come over there, and, you know, we'd be jokin' around, [background movement] and we were doin' our job, and, but, you know, he, he would come over and tell jokes and, and, you know, keep us stimulated, and we'd tell him, and he'd – you know, he was the kind a person that knew his people. [background movement] He would [clicking] bring you a cup a coffee and sit down with you and ask you how things were goin' at home [clicking] and didn't treat you like you were just [background conversation] a robot that was there to do a certain job and certain things, you know. [thumping] He wanted to know what was goin' on with the real you and [background movement] what was goin' on with the family and what, [thumping] you know, kind a activities that the kids were in and, and, [background conversation] you know. He was just a warm and [clicking] funny [clicking] and [clicking] great guy to work for because he looked out for you, [background movement] you know. And, um, [background conversation] [tsk] as far as [clicking] a bad supervisor, [background movement] I guess those were the [thumping] supervisors that, that treated you like you were [clicking] not a human being, that didn't care, [thumping] you know, [clicking] for – [thumping] you know, everybody has a bad day, [thumping] and everybody comes in there. They could've been [clicking] up all night with their kids. I don't know how many times I went to work when I got, [clicking] only had 2 or 3 hours of sleep because my kids were sick, and it was only me. [scratching] I was a single parent, [sniffing] you know. And I'd take that half hour of what we were supposed to have lunch break and [thumping] sleep so I could get through the next 3 hours. But, um, there were, there were just some individuals that were flat-out from the book, didn't [sniffing] care, you know. And, [clicking] um, you know, they wouldn't listen to you when you had a problem, [clicking] and I don't [clicking] mean a personal problem. I mean a problem that you were having with parts or whatever was happening at the time. They wouldn't react to it, you know. You were putting [clicking] them to a little more worker effort than they wanted to do. And I guess that would be the kind a supervisor that I didn't [thumping] want because I think anybody in there would work 150% if they had the supervisor that was really taking the time to make sure they were getting good parts or, [background conversation] or, you know, was in tune with that individual, [background movement] so to speak, and knew what they could, you know. [clicking] How you treat people, if you treat people with respect, and almost 99% of the time, you're gonna get that [clicking] respect back, so. [creaking] Cheryl McQuaid: [48:28] Do you remember a partner that [clicking] sticks out in your mind, um, that maybe they did somethin' that you just can't believe that [clicking] they were that thoughtful or, [clicking] or what made a good partner? Sally Grubaugh: [tsk] Oh, I had a lotta good partners [background movement] over those 9 years. I really did. [clicking] Um, [thumping] I had a lot more than I had bad partners, so [laughter] that was fortunate for me. [thumping] Um, [clicking] I guess [clicking] one a the – [sighing] the one that I can't forget, uh, [Nancy Falen 49:00] [background movement] back in the Cushion Room. [clicking] [tsk] And, um – [thumping] oh, here's a humorous [scratching] thing I just thought of too. [background movement] [laughter] One night, I came in with, [clicking] with glasses on, [clicking] and what I real-, didn't realize they were my [clicking] son's glasses. Remember the old, dark, [clicking] black – all the shop glasses [tinkling] looked the same, you know. [laughter] They were these big, thick, plastic [clicking] frames and then the lens. Well [thumping] I had accidentally picked up my son's glasses, [clicking] and my job was to read off a number to get it on the line [background movement] for the cushions. So I, that was important [background movement] that I was gettin' the right frame out there for these [clicking] cushions. Well I was havin' a heck of a time seeing. [laughter] And I didn't realize it. Um, [clicking] the supervisor, and it was [Carla Gates 49:51], way back when, come up there, and she said, "Sally, [clicking] [thumping] you're getting these numbers [thumping] wrong." And I'm goin' like [thumping] I don't know what's goin' on. Well it was these – I didn't wear prescription glasses at the time, and these were prescrip-, and I'm going like [thumping] darn these th-, you know. And then I realized, I took'm off, and I could see that they were prescription, and I'm goin' [thumping] no wonder. I, [laughter] you know. [laughter] And she laughed about that. Once I got – [thumping] she got me another pair a regular glasses, and once I got those on, I was rollin'. [clicking] But before that, you know, [clicking] those were, the numbers were fuzzy and stuff, and I had missed, [background movement] you know, 2 or 3 of, [clicking] of the number that I needed to read, you know, and put it on the line, [clicking] but then here it was my son's glasses. [laughter] And so. [laughter]. But goin' back to my partner [clicking] there. Nancy was my partner on the [clicking] line, and she knew that I was gettin', [clicking] not getting that much sleep with, [background movement] [thumping] you know, the family that I had and gettin'm off ta school, and then I was lucky ta [scratching] lay back down for an hour or 2. So I was gettin' maybe, [clicking] at the most, 4 or 5 hours' sleep a night and sometimes less. So she would let me sleep for that half hour, and then she'd wake me up to make sure I was awake enough to get goin' again. And I remember [clicking] there were nights when I got outta there that I had ta literally roll that window down to get home, to drive even just to DeWitt [clicking] to keep myself awake so I didn't fall asleep at the wheel. Um, back in those days, they didn't have childcare [background movement] providers, and I went through, [thumping] on that shift, I don't know how many babysitters I went through. You know, I'd no more than get [thumping] somebody in there with my kids and, [background movement] you know, [thumping] um, [laughter] they'd be gone or they'd find another job or, you know, they're moving or they had to do somethin' else. So [background movement] I went through all kinds of babysitters, and, um, [background movement] uh, Nancy knew, [thumping] you know. I, it, it was tough there for a while when I had really small kids, and, uh, you know. She was right there ta [background movement] encourage me and be there to [clicking] wake me up and, you know, [scratching] get me a cup of coffee and stick it in my face so that I could [thumping] get a little jump-start there again to do the next 3 or 4 hours to get me outta there. So I'd have to – and she stood up with me when we got married too, [clicking] so... Doreen Howard: Marilyn Coulter. [thumping] Marilyn Coulter: Now, I, um – Marilyn Coulter. [52:35] So speaking of when you got married, you [clicking] met your husband here, yes? [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: Oh, yeah. [laughter] The second – [clicking] well I didn't [thumping] meet him the second day, but [clicking] I was put right next to him or [clicking] his group of, um, what were they doing? [clicking] Door rubbers. They were doing – there was like 4 of'm, an-, and my husband [clicking] now was one a those door rubber people. [clicking] [tsk] And, uh, [clicking] you know, um, of course, at the time, there were no – [laughter] he was just one of those, those – when I hired in, everybody was growin' this real scruffy beard, and [thumping] I'm goin' like man, these [clicking] men are [scratching] scruffy lookin', 'cause they just had, you know, a couple a days of growth on their face, and I'm goin' like ew, you know. [laughter] So he was in the process of growin' his first beard, [clicking] you know. But, uh, he was one of the individuals that came to my rescue [clicking] that I told them about before, tryin' to install those, [clicking] uh, trunk rubbers. And, um, they even had bets going that I found out later on as, [clicking] as the rumors go around the plant that are [clicking] not always the most accurate. But bets that I would not be able to cut the job because I was such, looked like such a wuss when I hired in there, comin' right straight out of a doctor's office, you know. And, um, [sniffing] [tsk] [background movement] you know, there was all kinds a rumors goin' about – um, they did have it accurate that I was divorced. They [clicking] had some, uh, [clicking] age they didn't have accurate, which was to my benefit. Um, [laughter] uh, kids, I think they knew that I had some [clicking] children. And the other rumor that went [scratching] around was that [clicking] I cheated on my husband, and that's why I was divorced. I mean, [background movement] all the typical [clicking] things that get, you know, [clicking] heated up and spread over the plant. [thumping] And the betting was the one thing I got after him. [background movement] I said, "You were one of those people that had bet that I wasn't gonna make it on [laughter] this line." [thumping] And I was determined I don't care whether I hurt or not. I was gonna make it, [clicking] so... Marilyn Coulter: [54:54] How did that work for you, [clicking] working in a building the same [thumping] place that your husband [clicking] worked at? [background movement] [tsk] Or future husband? [thumping] Sally Grubaugh: Oh, [sighing] I mean, we didn't always work [clicking] in the same areas. Like I was in the Cushion [clicking] Room, he was in Trim. [clicking] Um, I went to Paint for a while [clicking] because of my seniority. He had 13 years ahead of me in seniority. [clicking] So, um, [clicking] actually, you know, we were best buddies, I mean, for years even before we got married. Um, we had lunch together, we played cards [background movement] with the guys together, although he never wanted to be my partner [clicking] [laughter] 'cause I made too many [laughter] [thumping] dumb euchre mistakes. [background movement] But, um, eventually I could play euchre right along with the guys, [so he 55:43] was one a the guys. We'd always spend our lunch half hour playing [clicking] cards, and I was usually the [scratching] only gal there at the [clicking] table, but I learned a lot in those days. [laughter] Maybe not so much bein' a great euchre player, but [laughter] those guys were very [background movement] entertaining. [laughter] [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: But, um, [clicking] okay. [recorder clicking] [56:08] Sally, how would you say working in Fisher Body for women was? Bein' a woman in Fisher Body. What was that like? [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: Well I had a very awesome, responsible job, but I think, um, you know, it's still a man's world. [background movement] It's still [clicking], most of the decisions, [clicking] um – look at the Shop Committee. You've got all men. [sniffing] Um, [background movement] a lot of decisions are based [clicking] on men's thoughts and values, and I, I still [background movement] don't think there's equality as far as believing that [clicking] we are as equal in intelligence [clicking] or processes or being able to handle jobs. I mean, I don't know [background movement] how many times I've heard other individuals make the statement, "She's way in over her head," [clicking] on top of their conclusion that we're more emotional, [clicking] so therefore, [clicking] we do not handle [clicking] ourselves [background movement] as well as they do, and we are not as capable of doing things [clicking] as they are. And [tsk] you know, um, I think [clicking] they are not probably considered [background movement] [thumping] for some [thumping] areas because of the gender, whereas they think, you know, [clicking] it's just they think that men are more capable of doing things, and I think that's hogwash. [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [57:42] [tsk] Do you think that [well, see, 57:43] number 1, because as far as with our Shop Committee, those are elected positions by the workforce, and even though it is a gender mix, it's still predominantly men working there, so that's why those men are [background movement] the ones who get elected for those positions because [background movement] most of the voting public [clicking] are the men work-, male workers? [background movement] Sally Grubaugh: [tsk] Well I think [clicking] women are more intimidated to run [clicking] against [clicking] some of these individuals because they've [background movement] got the experien-, well they don't have the experience because [clicking] it's been predominantly men. [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sally Grubaugh: And I think, [clicking] uh, I think a lot of [clicking] women would probably, [clicking] um, if, if given, [clicking] you know, more consideration, [clicking] I think they would... Marilyn Coulter: [58:33] The opportunity, they could stand? Sally Grubaugh: Right. [clicking] You know, and, and I don't think those opportunities are levied out on an even playing field. I'm sorry, but, [clicking] but that's what I've... Marilyn Coulter: S-... Sally Grubaugh: ...seen. Marilyn Coulter: [58:43] So with you feeling like that [clicking] and with some of the [thumping] young people coming in now, because we [clicking] still have some workers who are, [clicking] um, 10 years, 5 years, what would you like – [background movement] wh-, what's the one thing you'd like to ha-, see those young female workers [clicking] try to do now? Sally Grubaugh: [tsk] [clicking] I would say, [clicking] you know, don't sell yourself short. [thumping] You know, go out there. You knew, know you can handle a job, you know, even if you start small in an area that maybe not as, um, [clicking] notable or, you know. But start with something, even, you know, getting into the union and getting on some of the committees. [background movement] Um, [clicking] now that was one thing. I was never on [clicking] a committee, but I, [background movement] I think I had my [clicking] hands full on [laughter] other things most of the time. [thumping] But, um, [clicking] you know, start getting involved and, you know, even in your community, [clicking] you know, that you are capable of doing big things. [clicking] And, [clicking] you know, those kind a things will get some attention when being considered [clicking] for some of these, uh, [thumping] union positions. But don't ever sell yourself short. But, um, [thumping] and, you know, I think [clicking] you have to promote yourself. You know, I, [clicking] I don't think I promoted myself because I felt like the job that I did [clicking] should be based on, [clicking] you know, serving those people. But sometimes the political ramifications [thumping] do not give you any push towards being on the [background movement] equal playing fields. [scratching] So, um, you have to sometimes blow your or-, own horn, [clicking] and, uh, you know, because [clicking] people sometimes don't re-, [background movement] recognize some a the, some of the effort and some of the real frustration you had in doing, [clicking] you know, what you had to do. Marilyn Coulter: [1:00:50] Sally, [clicking] in working on the line [background movement] during those 9 years, [clicking] and you worked in the departments, n-, [clicking] I know you worked with Nancy, but on the average, how many women were [clicking] on the line working with you in your groups? [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: [tsk] Actually, huh. [clicking] There was quite a few women... Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...I mean, that were brought in the [background movement] same time I was, [clicking] and that was back in the late [clicking] 70s. So, um, [clicking] there was a lot more women in the plant then. Marilyn Coulter: [1:01:18] But in your specific area, your [clicking] working area – like [clicking] if you were in an area of 35 people, [clicking] how many of those 35 were women that you could see that you were, that you could communicate with? [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: Oh, probably maybe [thumping] a half dozen outta the area... [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:01:36]. Sally Grubaugh: ...I mean, yeah. Um, I never had any problems [clicking] communicating with women. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: Yeah, hm. [laughter] Sally Grubaugh: You know? And I didn't have that many problems [clicking] communicating with... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...men, either. Marilyn Coulter: [tsk] Yeah, I, [laughter] I know... [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: But... [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: ...for some women, [clicking] they've worked in [clicking] areas, and for [clicking] maybe 6 or 8 people [thumping] around'm, they [clicking] might've been the only female... Sally Grubaugh: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: ...and that might have had somethin' to do [clicking] with the way women functioned [clicking] in the plant. Maybe they didn't feel [clicking] that they could do the job or [background movement] things like that. Sally Grubaugh: [tsk] Well [background conversation] [clicking] I, you know, [sighing] [thumping] there's power in numbers. So um, [tsk] I think, I think that's what you gotta keep in mind. I mean, uh, women [clicking] can move mountains, and I see women in this union [clicking] that are, [thumping] they, they are the silent [background conversation] caretakers back here that always set up all the different functions, and whether it's the Christmas function or [clicking] the function you were a part [thumping] of all [clicking] these years... [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...um, [thumping], you know, it's the women that are doin' a lot of the heavy duty work [thumping] that are... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...doin' this. Now I'm not sure that, that the [clicking] women are always getting the recognition for that. Some cases they are, [clicking] and some cases they aren't. But, um, [background conversation] it's always the women in the union [background conversation] that I think have carried maybe a wee bit heavier load... Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...but maybe not have gotten the recognition through the years. Marilyn Coulter: Um, [clicking] last thing. [scratching] Um, [clicking] you talked about union activity. [clicking] [1:03:18] When you came [clicking] in here, [clicking] did you get any kind of [clicking] union orientation or learn [clicking] any women, any history, like the Women's Auxiliary, who [clicking] did carry the union? Sally Grubaugh: No. The [clicking] only thing I remember that was mentioned [clicking] about the union was signing the paper for union dues and that [laughter] they were gonna take, you know, the monthly union [thumping] dues out, which was 2 hours of your paycheck and that, you know, that there were union meetings available. But they didn't [clicking] really promote the union, you know... Marilyn Coulter: [But 1:03:51]... Sally Grubaugh: ...and so other than, [clicking] you know, when you got on the line, people would tell you, "Well if you have a problem, then you can call [thumping] your committee man." No, there was no schooling... Marilyn Coulter: Like they have now. [thumping] Sally Grubaugh: ...like they have now [background conversation] that, you know, the [clicking] union's available for this resource and that resource. Now, of course, there was no Ergonomics [laughing] back then. [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: [1:04:13] So [laughing] good things have happened, though. Sally Grubaugh: Yeah. There have been [background movement] lots of good things happening. [clicking] Doreen Howard: [tsk] Doreen Howard. [clicking] Um, you were here during all the different name changes [thumping] that [thumping] the plant went through. [1:04:26] What, what's your feelings [clicking] of the different name changes, and what do you go [clicking] by? [clicking] What do you call the [knocking] plant? Sally Grubaugh: Fisher [clicking] Body and, you know, it's always gonna be Fisher Body to me because I hired in [clicking] when my dad worked at Fisher Body, and now I was working at Fisher Body. I wish I had all the money that they put into makin' all these name changes... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...when somebody came up with [laughter] this idea overnight that we were now gonna become, [background conversation] you know, Lansing [clicking] Car Assembly [clicking] or... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...I mean, I [clicking] couldn't even keep up with the name changes. I, you know, normally I just said, [background movement] "Fisher Body Plant 6," something. And they go, "Oh, yeah. Well Fisher Body, I know that." [clicking] Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: LCA Body Plant? Uh, you know, [laughter] people on the outside didn't, [background movement] you know, keep up with the [background movement] changes either... Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Sally Grubaugh: ...so. [background movement] Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. [tsk] [recorder clicking] Uh, this is Doreen Howard. [clicking] [1:05:27] Um, Sally, is there anything that you wanted to talk about [thumping] today that we haven't asked you about at all? Sally Grubaugh: [tsk] Well I kinda touched on it [clicking] basically, but to let it – I think it's a big, [thumping] a really big thing to let people know they're appreciated. [background movement] You know, because a lotta times, [creaking] you know, unless you tell [thumping] them, you know, they don't know that. And, and [clicking] it makes a big difference, whether it be a supervisor, a union official, a manager, to let people know [background movement] that they're doin' a good job and that you really appreciate their efforts. And if it takes 5 minutes to just pull'm aside and let them know that. [tsk] You know, a cup a coffee doesn't hurt [background movement] or, [thumping] you know, because [clicking] most people have put [background movement] in a lot more than anybody ever would ever realize out there, [clicking] and I think that would make a world of difference in people's attitude out there in any position, whether they're a line worker [background movement] or [clicking] one of these appointed people or, [clicking] you know... Marilyn Coulter: Or a manager. [clicking] Sally Grubaugh: A manager, exactly. The managers [clicking] don't, I mean, other than their reviews [clicking] a-, and just to let'm know that during that course a time that they're doin' a good job, [background movement] you know. I think people are people. They pull their pants on the same, [thumping] they have hearts, they have souls and, you know, that, [background conversation] keepin' that spirit and keepin' [clicking] things up is what's gonna keep this company in business... [background conversation] Marilyn Coulter: [Yeah... 1:07:07] Sally Grubaugh: ...so... Marilyn Coulter: Thank you, Sally. Doreen Howard: All right. Well [clicking] thank you... Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you, Sally. Doreen Howard: ...for your interview. [sighing] [recorder clicking] /lk