James (Jimmy) Howlett, an African American, discusses his career as a production worker at the Fisher Body plan in Lansing, MI Doreen Howard: Okay, [tsk] uh, it is October 10, 2005. We’re at the Lansing Car Assembly. [tsk] Uh, I am Doreen Howard, and we will be interviewing James Howlett. [tsk] Um, James, [00:16] can you, uh, state your name and spell your last name, please, and your address for the record? [background conversation] James Howlett: My name is James [Alan 00:23] Howlett, H-O-W-L-E-T-T. Doreen Howard: [00:28] And your address? James Howlett: Address: 1020 Boynton Drive, Lansing Michigan 48917. [background conversation] Doreen Howard: Okay. [00:36] And why don’t you guys introduce yourselves? Cheryl McQuaid: I’m ser-, Cheryl McQuaid. Jerri Smith: And I’m Jerri Smith. Doreen Howard: Okay. [background conversation] Um, [tsk] let’s see here. [00:48] What’s your seniority date? [background conversation] James Howlett: February 24, 1970. Doreen Howard: [00:53] And what department do you work in? James Howlett: Environmental Services. Doreen Howard: Oh. Um, have you always worked in Environmental Services? James Howlett: Uh, I’ve worked – no. I’ve worked 30, 31 years in Environmental Services, and I hired in at – originally hired into the Body Shop. Doreen Howard: Okay. [00:15] Can you tell me a little bit about that first day when you hired in? [background conversation] James Howlett: The first day I was hired, I was petrified. I hired into the Body Shop, and the Body Shop was noisy. [background conversation] We had all these many welding guns to work with. It was pretty scary experience. Very loud. [background conversation] Doreen Howard: [1:35] Do, do you remember your supervisor or anyone… James Howlett: Uh, my first supervisor… Doreen Howard: …that, that you worked with? James Howlett: …I worked for was [Walt Beach]. Doreen Howard: Mm- hm. James Howlett: I remember him. He was quite a, quite a supervisor, very loud and flamboyant. [laughter] Doreen Howard: Okay. Um, [tsk] so body shop. James Howlett: Yes. Doreen Howard: [1:55] [tsk] And what exact job were you assigned to at that time? James Howlett: I did spot welding. I, I weld the back, uh, seat panels, and I did some welding along the front of the, uh, [tsk] windshield wiper brackets and, and I, um, I had ta release clamps off the body trucks… Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett …before the job got lifted off. Doreen Howard: [2:24] For someone who doesn’t know what spot welding is, can you kinda describe what you – what it is and what you worked with and materials and things… James Howlett: Well… Doreen Howard: …that surrounded you? James Howlett: Basically you worked with a hammer and 3 or 4 spot welding guns as basically the body is being put together, and you had to weld all these integrated pieces together as the line went, went down the line. Doreen Howard: Okay. [2:46] And was that – is that a large department and was there quite a few people that worked in that department? James Howlett: Yeah, it was quite a few people. I’d say, it was about, [tsk] at least ‘bout 30. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 2:55]. Okay. That’s quite a few. [Inaudible 2:57] Cheryl McQuaid: How long did you do that job? James Howlett: I did that job for about, oh, ‘bout a good year. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 3:06] James Howlett: Then I left the Body Shop and went on to – I did rework in the Salvage Department where they bought stock in, stock that was wrong or cut wrong. We had to rework it, uh, or wasn’t punched in right – certain things that were imperfected from the supplier. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett: We did a lotta rework. Doreen Howard: [3:22] And, and how long did you work in, in the… James Howlett: I did that… Doreen Howard: [inaudible 3:25] James Howlett: …for about a year. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett: And then I got cut off in ’74. During the oil embargo I got laid off… Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett: …for about 5 months and then I leveled off and then I went into Sanitation, Environmental Service in 1974. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 3:42] So… James Howlett: And I’ve been there ever since. Doreen Howard: [3:44] How long did you act-, physically get laid off out of the plant for any length of time during that or did you just switch from 1 department to another? James Howlett: I got laid off for a couple of months and then I ended up eventually leveling off and going to another department. Doreen Howard: Okay. James Howlett: Environmental Services. Doreen Howard: Okay. [4:00] So you came back and at that time started out in Environmental Services? James Howlett: In 1974. Doreen Howard: Okay. [4:07] And tell me, what is Environmental Services and what type of jobs did you perform in that arena? James Howlett: Well, when I, I got in to Environmental Services, it consists of housekeeping or janitorial work which we, you know, cleaned bathrooms and you did a lot of stacking and hauling cardboard and stacking cardboard on, and getting and loading pallets up. We had a lot of pallets at that time and, uh, sweeping, sweeping certain areas. My area then originally was in the Body Shop, so I did a lot of that. And cleaned the [inaudible 4:40] ‘cause I was in the soldering area so we had to clean and lift up [inaudible 4:44] solder that was done on jobs that they solder and it fell on the, on the, uh, floor. So I had to take care of that so… Doreen Howard: So, [4:53] was there a particular department that you did the sanitation for or did you work throughout the plant in different areas? James Howlett: Eventually I did, then I went into Utility so then that’s – I spread it out and did myriad jobs then so I was on Utility for quite a few years, ‘bout 10, 12 years on utility. Cheryl McQuaid: [5:14] You started out in Body Shop and then you went into… James Howlett: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: …Utility. Doreen Howard: Um, tell me a little bit about the – how you felt about the transition of going from the production department in – arena to the Sanitation arena, the, the pros and cons and the differences between the, the groups. James Howlett: Well, the difference is, you don’t have to work as steady as you did when you’re on production. Sanitation was pretty much, you know, you had a lot of time as opposed to standing on a line all day and doing a job all day. It was mainly task orienated so it was not like a repetitive job like we do working on a line and you performed a certain task, cleaning bathrooms and lifting pallets, consistent sweeping. And, uh, you pretty much had a flexible schedule in terms of free time. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 6:05]. So not, not as hard on your, your body… James Howlett: Right. Doreen Howard: …physically then… James Howard: Strenuously… Doreen Howard: …as demanding. James Howlett: …not as hard on you. Less demanding. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Uh, [tsk] let’s see here. [6:18] Um, we said that, uh, you were laid off before? James Howlett: Mm-hm. [tsk] Doreen Howard: And for just a couple of months. [6:27] Do, do you have any idea what the layoff was for? Why you were laid off for? James Howlett: Um, reduction force. I got laid off back in ’74 [stammers] and ’75 due to reduction force because of oil embargo. Doreen Howard: Uh, the oil embargo. James Howlett: And I did remember I previously got laid off again back in ’81, ’82. There was a recession. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett: I was forced out of group for, uh, about 6 months. I ended up going to the Cushion Room. Doreen Howard: Oh. James Howlett: I worked there for about 5 or 6 months and eventually back in ’84 I came back into Sanitation so I wasn’t very much out of Sanitation, Environmental Service for very long. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. [7:04] Um, kind of on the same to-, line, um, not necessarily layoffs, but were you ever in-, involved in, in any strikes. Was there any strikes, uh, that happened during… James Howlett: Yes. Doreen Howard: …your time here? James Howlett: When I hired in, in, uh, February of 1970, that was the year when the contract that was going on in, in September of 1970, and we went off on the strike because of that and the strike was mainly over pensions. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 7:32]. James Howlett: At that time, it was a pension issue, and we want out on strike and we were on strike 67 days. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 7:39]. James Howlett: I can remember that experience. It was a long ordeal. I had not been here ‘bout 6 or 7 months and we went on strike and that was for the pension and, of course, we stayed on strike ‘til 67, 67 days until the strike was settled. Doreen Howard: That’s a – That was a long, quite a long strike. James Howlett: Yes, it was quite a experience, humbling experience. Doreen Howard: Yes. It would be. [8:01] Uh, going back to, um, [tsk] the Sanitation Department, and, uh, could you tell me a little bit about the department as far as was there any initiation into that group or even when you came in your very first day, when you went to Body Shop? Was there an initiation into the production group as far as pranks or any type of things that they did to the new hire people that came into their groups at that time? James Howlett: Well, I guess the biggest prank is they throw you out there in the area [laughter] and you had to figure out what area that you had to do ‘cause the area was split up by boundaries, but a lot of times they didn’t tell you those boundaries. So you had to kinda learn from your comrades that were in that particular area, how, how far your area extended. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett: So they kinda throw you to the wolves… [laughter] James Howlett …so to speak. [laughter] Doreen Howard: Here’s your job. Go find it. James Howlett: Yeah, here’s your job. You take it. Now you figure it out. [laughter] Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 9:01]. James Howlett: So a lot of it was touch and go, but you know, ya, ya learn after you develop a camaraderie with the, uh, your fellow workers ‘bout where your particular job end and started. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Uh, you talked a little bit about camaraderie. [9:15] Uh, is there any, uh personnel here that you got to be good friends with, whi-, while you have been here? James Howlett: I, I got friends with a number of people here, particularly the, ya know, your coworkers that you worked with over the years, and your supervisors. It – there was some supervisors that kinda had a positive affect on me that were really I thought was great supervisors, both professionally and on a human standpoint. Doreen Howard: Tell me a little bit about'm. James Howlett: I can think of, uh, 1 particular, when I worked in the Body Shop. His name was [Ray Perez]. I originally worked in his department. I moved from 1 department over to his department. He worked in Side Frames, and he was a very fair foreman. He got along with his employees good. If you did his job – did your job, he didn’t mess wit’ you. He, you know, had a lot of dinners in his department, and he just treated his people well, you know. You did your job. He didn’t bother you. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 10:13]. James Howlett: And he was one of my favorites and then I had, uh, [tsk] another supervisor, [Al Kelly]. He was one of the first black supervisors in Environmental Services, and he was fair. You know, you did your job, you know. He didn’t mess wit’ ya, you know. And he had – and if ever you need help in your job, he was there to help ya. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible]. James Howlett: And just fellow workers along the way, you know. You meet a lot of people, their names I can’t even describe. They cross your path over the 35 years that I’ve been here. [laughter] James Howlett: There’s a lot of-, there’s a lot of good employees. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 10:47] Um, [tsk] I would like you to, uh, describe if any, if there were any comparisons from when you first hired in to the present that, um, [tsk] where, any situations where your race may have come into play at any time while you were working here. [11:12] Has that ever been an issue, in, in any of the jobs that you have been in? James Howlett: No, I really can’t say as it ever been an issue for me. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 11:18]. James Howlett: I never had any problems where I worked all those years as far as race. I think the only biggest question that came in the race is when, uh, back in, uh, [tsk] I think it, yeah, 1976, was a big issue of race came in. That was the year that before that time, [tsk] male employees would clean male bathrooms. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 11:43]. James Howlett: Female employees would clean female bathrooms. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 11:46]. James Howlett: Well they changed that then under the E-, Equal Rights Amendment. Now they made jobs that were both men and women could do'm equally and, uh, I can recall when I first started cleaning women’s bathroom. Women was very upset, very mad. They didn’t like it. [laughter] I – A man coming in cleaning women’s toilets, and that caused quite a ruckus for quite a long time. Pe-, women would complain. They went to the Union Hall. They were complaining, “Hey, why we got a man? How come a woman couldn’t do that?” But then again women had to clean men’s bathrooms so it was kind of a problem as far as, uh, gender, gender discrimination ‘cause they didn’t – they were intimidated, you know. Women – men never had cleaned women’s bathroom so the women were frightened, kind of intimidated. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 12:33]. James Howlett: So it took a long time for them to adjust. Doreen Howard: Uh, changes are not… James Howlett: Yeah. Doreen Howard …necessarily the easiest for people to accept. James Howlett: No, it’s not. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 12:42]. As far as our facility, uh, [tsk] you’ve worked here for so many years. [tsk] [12:53] How do you feel about the, the plant closing and, and there’s hardly anyone here now, and they’re still cleaning and trying to make the [tsk] surroundings nice for the people that are left behind here still. Um… James Howlett: Well it’s a bitter – bittersweet experience. I mean, the, the friendships that you formed here at this plant produced the most cars, you know, in the capital city of the world. We produced more cars than anybody and to see it shut down now, it’s kind of a sad experience for me, to see this plant not building any more cars. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 13:31]. James Howlett: You know, particularly when it – the fact that it is 1 of the most antiquated plants in the whole GM system, yet we produced the most cars. So it’s kind of sad experience and to see it end, shut, and cars never being built again here. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 13:46]. [13:47] Um, [tsk] if you were to offer any words of wisdom to a new employee that’s going to be, uh, coming in and possibly working at the Delta Plant, what, what would you offer for words of wisdom? James Howlett: Well I will say that ya, ya have to learn to change with the, the times are different. We’re living in a global competitive world now, and you have to have the ability to want to adapt and change. You have to be flexible because our business slowly evolving every day. Every day it’s changing so you had, you had to build it. It really changed and have the ability to work in teams. That’s the most important… [coughing] James Howlett: …thing, to get away from the petty differences and personalities and realize that our major goal is to produce a car and produce it at the best quality and I guess that’s the biggest thing, to be able to adapt to change. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 14:43] [14:45] Um, over your time that you have been here, uh, has there been anything that has just st-, stuck with you in your mind that has been so funny that – or just unusual that it stands out, something that you wanna tell us? James Howlett: I guess the most funniest, humorous thing is, is when I, uh, worked here, the first week that I worked here, and I received my check. And I hired in at $3.51 an hour, and I made $150 check. When I first got that check, I was scared. I thought the boss had made a mistake, that I got $150 for a paycheck for a whole week. I, [stammers] it was funny because I never believed that I could make that kind of money. I didn’t make that kind of money when I first come in, and I asked the boss, “Is something wrong? Is this check right?” He says, “Sure it’s right.” I says, “ God, that seemed like too much money.” He says, “Well if you want to give some of it back, I’ll take it.” [laughter] James Howlett: He says, “That’s your check.” Cheryl McQuaid: Jimmy you were here when the plant was known as Fisher Body. It was Fisher Body. James Howlett: Right. Cheryl McQuaid: And you’ve seen it change to BOC and then to LCA. [16:02] What are your thoughts on that? What did you think when all that was happening? James Howlett: Well I thought about, a lot like a lot of people, you know, when they – it, it changed and it – the identity of the Fisher name is synonymous with the whole industry at that time. I mean, Fisher was just every car had emblem, Body by Fisher, on it, and to see it change, it was just unbelievable. I just thought it lost its identity, to lose that Fisher name. But as you know, and then to lose the building of the 98s and the Vista Cruisers and all the big cars that we made, ‘cause we lost all that. When they went into the LCA, back in what, ’84 I think, it’s approximately around there. So it was kind of a shocking experience when we thought that many of us had been here said, “This place is crazy to get rid of your bread and butter cars that we built. We built those 98s and those 88s and Vista Cruisers.” We made a lot o’ money and we thought the company was headed into wrong direction. Well needless to say the company was right because we made a lot of Grand Ams. We made a lot of Buicks, a lot of Cavaliers, so sometimes change always – sometimes it seems wrong but at that particular time it worked out for the best for us. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 17:19]. [17:21] Um,[tsk] was there any, um, [tsk] other members of your family that work here or any relatives that you have that work here? James Howlett: Uh, I had a, I had a sister retired on the Oldsmobile. She had 30 years. She retired in 1967, no 1997. Excuse me. Then I had a brother-in-law that worked up in Paint. He retired outta here 3 years ago. He had almost 40 years. Doreen Howard: Oh. James Howlett: Then I got a brother that works in Material here. Hired in 1978 so… Doreen Howard: Oh. James Howlett …those were about the only close relatives I have that worked within General Motors. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 17:55] That’s quite a few people that, that work [inaudible 17:59] so… Cheryl McQuaid: [18:01] How old were you when you hired in? James Howlett: I was 20, 20 years old. A little young kid. Cheryl McQuaid: [18:07] Did you grow up in this neighborhood? Where did you grow up? James Howlett: I grew up in the Oldsmobile, the [inaudible 18:11] Street area, right where the main plant, the Chassis is. Doreen Howard: Oh, okay. James Howlett: I grew up in there until they started buying those houses out in the late 6-, 70s, that they bought all that property out so I am a lifelong resident. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 18:30] a little bit of background on – [18:33] did you ever know what people were doing in those – the [inaudible 18:37] when you were younger? Did you ever wanna – did you think of that [inaudible 18:41] I want to work there someday or was there, you know… James Howlett: No… Doreen Howard: …not necessarily? James Howlett: …no, I never thought about it. I never thought about really working here. You know, a lot of people retired. Of course I graduated from Lansing Sexton so a lotta kids that got out of school ended up coming over here, but at that particular time, I, I had aspirations of wanting to be a car mechanic so I got into that field for a while, and then I found out that I – this field doesn’t really suit me so I decided a lot of my friends were going into General Motors. I said, “Well, I’m, I’m going to go into work in a factory,” but I never envisioned myself coming in and working at a factory. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 19:18] [background conversation] Um, [19:23] is there, um [inaudible 19:26] Jerri Smith: [19:27] How much did the plant change in… Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 19:29] Jerri Smith: …all the years you’ve been here? It’s like when you first came in compared to what it is now. James Howlett: Well when I first came in you hired in and – like when I hired in the Body Shop, everybody was required to go down and get a hammer and get it [inaudible 19:42] and shaped like an anvil, a spiked anvil, and you, you put your coveralls on. They told me, “Well hey you’re hired here to work. We don’t wanna hear your personal problems or issue. We want – expect you on the job every day,” and that was it. And that’s it. Ya know, they – your job was to work and that was it. And I see now it’s greatly changed. I mean, you know, you had to go find your way to the body shop. You didn’t know where you were going. You had to search and ask people where to go or where the hospital was or where the cafeteria was. You kind of had to learn all that on your own. To file for unemployment, sub pay, all that, you know, you pretty much had to learn on your own, or, or through your comrades, and now I see the change as, as the years progress. You know, you – we got the Family Work Life Department that helps people with personal problems and issues. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 20:37]. James Howlett: Now they go through orientation, where people come in and get a chance a week to go to their union and be shown around the parts of the plant, where to find the, the hospital and where to find certain places within the plant. They got union awareness. I mean, they got a myriad of different things that, that we didn’t have, ya know. You got physical therapy reimbursement where you can go and do physical fitness and get reimbursed. I mean, there’s a lotta things now that they’re concerned that if the help that worked there now than years ago they didn’t have those things. Doreen Howard: Um, you touched base on, uh, do with the negotiated benefits that are – that we’ve accumulated over the years. [21:21] Is there any, um, particular benefit that you yourself have been able to use – utilize and, um, [tsk] which one do you feel is one of our better benefits? James Howlett: I tell you, that’s, uh, that can go into a myriad. [laughter] James Howlett: I think the number 1 is the pension. When I first hired in, they fought and struck for $600 a month pension. That was the issue back then. Thirty years and be able to retire at 30 years regardless of age. That was first instituted in 1970. Before year, it was the age cap and they didn’t get paid that much pension so that was something that we, or I’ve benefited by and a lot of other workers have benefited – increased pensions. You got cost of living. I mean, you got Legal Aid Services. That stands out to me as a very good benefit. You got 401K program started. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 22:14]. James Howlett: So there’s a lot of good healthy benefit that we got during the years that I certainly am grateful for. Doreen Howard: Um, [tsk] you, uh, we’ve talked before and you said you had, uh, children that you have put through college. James Howlett: Mm-hm. Doreen Howard: [22:34][tsk] Has that benefit, uh, with the General Motors dependent, uh, scholarships been of use? James Howlett: Uh, on, 1, 1, 1 year, it, it benefited, but the other years I could not get it because of the fact that I paid most of it. They had a certain limit of – as far as tuition, how much they would pay. There’s a cap on that which I didn’t know, but they had benefited me. I mean, I, I’ve [inaudible 23:04] enriched by it and profited by it. And just to have a good wage paying job benefited. To be able to have a job that afforded me the opportunity to send her to college was a big help. Doreen Howard: Um, you also touched base a little bit on, um, [tsk] the union. [23:22] Have you been to any union meetings or you ever been active in the union at all? James Howlett: Uh, no, not really. I haven’t been to very few union meetings. No, I’ve not been a active participant within union meetings. No. Doreen Howard: [23:39] Um, [tsk] um, [tsk] is there any, um, [tsk] thing else that you, you can think of that you, you want to tell us about, something that we haven’t touched on, that you wanted to share with us? James Howlett: Uh, like I said, I’ve enjoyed my 35 years that I’ve been here. I have been happy with General Motors. General Motors has been 1 of the best places that I have to work. I have enjoyed the friendships all during the years, in particularly, back in the 70s where we used to have bowling leagues, meaning foremans and supervisors would get together and we had bowling leagues. And we had pool leagues, and we had golf leagues during the 70s, and those were kinda the most enjoyable times that I had during the years and of course when they reorganized, that kinda got lost in the shuffle. Company reorganized and structurally changed the dynamics of the process and how things worked. I mean, there was, years ago, the foremans would set their jobs up but then when they reorganized, industrial engineering did all that. So it kind of lost its cohesiveness between the employees and I kind of felt disappointed by that, that we didn’t have that close friendship with management and employees any more. But uh, I am just thankful and grateful for the benefits, for the opportunity to be able to work in 1 plant and not have to go to 4 or 5 different plants that built, I think, 1 of the best quality jobs in the world that we built here over the years. We’ve won so many quality awards and banners and J.D. Powers Award. Those are the things that, in my memory, strike out as very enjoyable experience. Doreen Howard: [tsk] [25:29] Now, are you going to be continuing on to the Delta Plant? [background conversation] James Howlett: I’m gonna go over there. I don’t know how long… [laughter] James Howlett …I’m gonna stay, but I want to be able to leave this plant and say that I did physically go to the new plant. So I am looking forward and excited about that. I’ll never forget this plant though, even though we’re going to something new to me, this has still been 1 of the best plants in the world to work for. But I’m looking for the opportunity to go there. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 25:58]. All right. Well, well thank you very much for your interview. We truly appreciate it. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you Jimmy. James Howlett: You welcome. Jerri Smith: Thank you Jimmy. James Howlett: You guys are good. Doreen Howard: Um, Jimmy I have 1 other question that I wanted to ask you. [26:13] Do you remember when women came into the Body Shop? James Howlett: Yes, I can recall, 1976, women first hired at the Body Shop and to observe'm, it was quite a, as I felt, they felt like I felt. The Body Shop was a very intimidating place. You had a lot of smoke, a lot of noise, lot of spot welding guns. It was very physical and demanding work, and, uh, to see the looks on their face, they were like me. They were very scared. They were very apprehensive, but yet they were energetic to, to rise to the challenge and do the work. Back then, ya had a lotta utility and ya had a lotta other people there that would help you to perform the job, but that was quite an experience to see the women come in to the body shop. Doreen Howard: [26:56] So what time frame was that, when they [inaudible 27:00] … James Howlett: Back in 1976. Doreen Howard: Okay. [27:02] And prior to that, were women working in other parts of the plant, or, or… James Howlett: There was no woman working in the, within the Body Shop at that time, and there was very few women – the women that worked, most of'm worked in Paint, in the Paint Department, and there were a couple of women on the Sanitation or Environmental Service as is now called, but, uh, then, uh, the majority of women came in prior and years later, and that was in 1978, ’77 and ’78, they hired quite a few number of women that came out to the plant to work so… Doreen Howard: [27:39] So what was, um, [tsk] the majority of the males – what were their feelings do you think when the women started to come in, into the work place? James Howlett: Well just like it is now. You ha-, had some certain biases and prejudices that men felt women should not be in there doing men’s job ‘cause they was particularly a male dominated profession at that time. A lot of men didn’t like it. They didn’t like the idea of women coming in doing men’s work or taking the jobs from men so they were pretty – some of'm were pretty angry. There were some that didn’t mind it – didn’t mind it [inaudible 28:16] hey they doing the same work as we do. They can do it so… Doreen Howard: [28:20] Has that changed in your time here or do you still see a lot of the same prejudices that there… James Howlett: [Inaudible 28:26] to, to some degree, you still see some prejudice but basically it’s changed because there is some work that women can do better than men because their dex-, dex-, dexterity,… Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. James Howlett: …their ability to handle hands so there were certain jobs women did better than men, like your door wire jobs so, yeah, there’s still some prejudice but for the most part, they pretty much accepted it. Doreen Howard: Okay. All right. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you Jimmy. Female: Thank you. James Howlett: You’re quite welcome. /rm