David Karkau discusses his career as a skilled trades pipefitter and UAW member at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doreen Howard: Um, it is October 17, 2005. We’re in the Lansing Car Assembly. I am Doreen Howard and we will be interviewing Dave Karkau today. [0:14] Um, Dave, could you please say your name and spell your last name and your address for the record, please? David Karkau: Dave Karkau. Doreen Howard: [0:24] Spell your last name. David Karkau: K-a-r-k-a-u. My address is 110061 South Colby Lake Road, Laingsburg, Michigan. Doreen Howard: [0:35] Okay, um, everyone please go around the table and we’ll introduce everyone. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. Doreen Howard: Okay, um, we have some biographical data to collect on you. [0:51] Um, are you married? David Karkau: Yes, I am. Doreen Howard: [0:53] And do you have any children? David Karkau: Yes, I do, two daughters. Doreen Howard: [0:57] Okay, um, do you have any, um, education outside of high school? David Karkau: Yes, I spent four years at LCC. Doreen Howard: Okay. [1:07] And do you have any military service? David Karkau: No, I don’t. Doreen Howard: Okay. Um, let’s start off from the beginning. [1:15] When did you hire in to Fisher Body? David Karkau: I hired in on August 19, 1976. Doreen Howard: 1976. [1:29] Can you describe that very first day when you came to work here? David Karkau: Yeah, it was pretty frightening. I came in for the interview to a Mr. Brooks and that was it, sometime in the morning, 9, 10:00, and I was hired right then and I came back on the second shift which started at, I don’t know, about 2:30, 3:00. I had to come back and go through the medical department and I started that, that evening in the body shop. Doreen Howard: Body shop. Do you recall...? David Karkau: In the jungle. Doreen Howard: In the jungle. [2:06] Explain what the jungle is and why they called it jungle. David Karkau: The jungle was a pretty scary place when you, you came to the plant. It was part of the body shop. It’s where they welded the side frames of the floor pans, where they did most of their welding after the, they tacked the stuff together. It was nothing but a bunch of hoses hanging down with welder guns. There was no automation. It was all done by hand. Doreen Howard: [2:38] And was that where you had your first job in doing welding? David Karkau: Yes, spot welding. Doreen Howard: Spot welding. David Karkau: I did that for just a short time, then I was taken out of there and put in the new building. At that time it was going to be the new paint shop up above but down below it was part of the body shop and we reworked floor pans so I MIG welded down there. That was in ’77 or ’78 I think is when that started or when that building was completed. I was in there before that welding. Doreen Howard: Okay. Michael Fleming: So Dave, when you left the jungle from doing spot welding or resistance welding and went to mig welding, the differences in the two weldings is a little, is, is quite, quite, is quite a difference. [3:31] Explain what you did with those processes. David Karkau: In the spot welding, it was taking a, a, a big gun that was, uh, it was held together with hoses it seemed like but it was a pneumatic gun and electric that would, the jaws would come together on the metal and as it pinched it welded. That was a spot weld. The MIG weld was done with a handheld type torch type, it was a wire feed and that would, uh, I don’t know how I want to explain that, how it fused the metal. It just melted it. Michael Fleming: It fuses the metal. David Karkau: It fuses. Michael Fleming: It melts it together. David Karkau: Right. Michael Fleming: And, and causes it to bond. David Karkau: Melt, melts it with adding metal to it. Michael Fleming: [4:22] But quite a bit of difference in skill level would it not, would you not say? David Karkau: Oh yeah. Running the spot welders, it wasn’t so much a skill running the, the spot weld, it was a technique, but it required skill to do the MIG welding, yes. Doreen Howard: [4:42] Do you recall your, who your supervisor was at that time? David Karkau: Oh geez. You’re taking me way back in time. Jim Aldrich was my supervisor in the jungle, in the body shop. And a guy by the name of Mike, I can’t remember his last name, was the supervisor that I MIG welded with. Doreen Howard: Now when you, you first came in, um, in a lot of the groups they had initiations to the new hires, to the new hires that came in. [5:20] Was there any type of initiation or prank that they pulled on you being a new hire coming in? David Karkau: Geez, I don’t remember any of those as I came in. I know there was some that were, uh, developed later on when, when I was no longer in wire and the new hires came in. I don’t remember when I came in, I don’t. Marilyn Coulter: [5:48] What are some of those ones that got developed? David Karkau: Oh geez. In the art booths, they used to take coffee cups and fill’m up with acetylene, oxygen and acetylene from the torches and tip’m upside down and put’m on a place where somebody is going to MIG weld and they’ll explode. It’s just a big pop. Or back then, back in those days, 30 years ago, we didn’t have plastic lunch buckets, we had metal ones, so working in the art booth is all metal so they would weld your lunch bucket down, weld it shut. Um, there was always something done with sealer, stick it in your lunch bucket or in your gloves, they would put it in your gloves. Um, just little things like that. Marilyn Coulter: Little things to pass the day by. David Karkau: Little things, yeah, to pass the day by. Doreen Howard: So after you left the body shop... David Karkau: Uh-huh. Doreen Howard: ...at some point... David Karkau: Mm-hm. Doreen Howard: [6:55] ...where, where did you go after you were in the body shop and how, how long did you actually stay in the body shop? David Karkau: I stayed in the body shop for probably, oh, let’s see, if I hired in in ’76 it wasn’t until the end of the 80s probably when I left the body shop. Doreen Howard: Okay. David Karkau: Actually, I left the body shop, um, let’s, let’s go back on that. I hired in in ’76. In ’79, I, I was, I started my apprenticeship, okay, so I stayed in the body shop for those three years. Um, I started the apprenticeship in ’79. It takes four years, so I finished that in ’83. Doreen Howard: [7:36] And your apprenticeship was for? David Karkau: The apprenticeship was for, in maintenance. Doreen Howard: Maintenance. David Karkau: Pipefitter. Doreen Howard: Pipefitter, okay. David Karkau: And then after I finished that I would bounce around ‘cause I was low seniority. I bounced around to different areas. Doreen Howard: [7:50] Now how did you go from production that you were hired in to, to getting an apprenticeship in skilled trades? David Karkau: Um, what they do is, uh, first of all you, uh, go down to Labor Relations and fill out an application and get your name on the waiting list and then you acquire points through various functions, one working here at Fisher Body was one way, also working changeovers, um, any education that you had that was pertinent to, to the trade you was going in, plus they offered I believe twice a year apprenticeship test and you had, had a score on that, so they added up all your, all your totals and wherever that total put you on the list, is, that’s where you was at. Doreen Howard: Okay. Doug Rademacher: So Dave, you said you went to Lansing Community College. David Karkau: Yes. Doug Rademacher: [8:53] The four years you say you took there, was that a four-year apprentice trade after you hired in to GM? David Karkau: I took some courses before I, I came in to Fisher Body and I also took some courses through the apprenticeship. Doug Rademacher: [9:07] What were the courses you took prior to coming in to Fisher Body and why did you hire in to Fisher Body? David Karkau: Most of my classes that I took prior to were math classes. I liked math. I thought I was going to go somewhere with that. Why I hired in to Fisher Body? Um, I worked at Motor Wheel prior to and, as soon as I got out of high school, and I kind of did not like being inside working in a factory so I quit. I chose not to work there anymore. I worked construction for a short time doing cement work and that was kind of seasonal to where I just worked maybe six months out of the year and it was pretty hard for me to save money or to manage my money to where six months would last me for a whole year. I kind of really needed a job and I heard that this, that Fisher Body was hiring. As much as I did not want to come to a factory, I decided to put my application in not knowing that I’d be hired that day. [laughter] Male: So that day, huh. David Karkau: That day. So that’s how I ended up here. Male: [10:13] So did you hear about the hiring from a friend or people you had that...? David Karkau: I... Male: ...worked in the facility? David Karkau: Yup, my dad worked here back at that time and I was told by him to more or less get my butt down here and put an application in, [laughter] so I did. Doreen Howard: [10:32] Did you have other relatives other than your father who worked here? David Karkau: Not at that time. Doreen Howard: Not at that time. David Karkau: I have a brother that works here, I have a cousin that works here, but at that time back in the early 70s, uh, just my dad. Cheryl McQuaid: [10:46] What did your father do here? David Karkau: He also was a pipefitter. Doreen Howard: Oh, okay, so you had a little bit of background of what was entailed in the pipefitter job. David Karkau: Not really. Doreen Howard: Not really. David Karkau: Um, what he did really didn’t interest me so I didn’t, I had no idea what a pipefitter was until I came here and, and worked changeovers with the guys. I didn’t know what they did. Doreen Howard: [11:14] Explain what a changeover is. David Karkau: Changeover is, uh, when they have a shutdown in the summertime normally for, uh, um, a... Female: Model. David Karkau: ...model change. Um, we always didn’t change the models, you know, metal-wise. You might just change cosmetic things on them, on the vehicle but it was a, it was a downtime that we had in the summertime, usually two weeks in July. Doreen Howard: [11:47] So you left the body shop and you went...? David Karkau: To skilled trades. Doreen Howard: To skilled trades. David Karkau: Yes. Doreen Howard: [11:54] And you were in the apprenticeship program for the pipefitters at that time? David Karkau: Yes, I was. Doreen Howard: [12:01] So describe what your day en-, entailed for a pipefitter. What, what did you do as a pipefitter and what were some of the things that you did during the day as a pipefitter? David Karkau: Okay, [chuckle] uh, during the 40 hours of, of a normal week, um, you would just maintain, um, the facility here depending on where you was at. There’s four areas of the plant. There’s body, paint, trim, and facilities. So if you’re in facilities, you’re going to maintain the facilities, the drinking fountains, the bathrooms, um, any of the pipes. Uh, pipefitter trade technically takes care of all the, any pipes or anything that has any liquids going through, gases, so a facilities guy would be doing that. If you’re in the trim area, the pipefitters [cough] took care of the urethanes, any of the liquids, um, just general maintenance on the things, um, on the machines. If you’re in paint, they would take care of all the paint lines, um, spray, spray machines, spray guns, anything that had to do with the liquids again as the body shop, um, once again the hoses, uh, any of the machines, all of the machines, anything to do with the liquids. Cheryl McQuaid: [13:35] As an apprentice, are you, um, put in one department or do they have you move around in different departments so that you can learn...? David Karkau: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: ...all of the stuff? David Karkau: As an apprentice, you have a list of job descriptions that you’re expected to learn. Um, that’s made up by the apprentice coordinator and Labor Relations, and yes, you spend so many hours, um, in each area. You spend so many hours going to school. Um, you have no overtime. You’re not allowed to, to work overtime unless all the journeymen are working. [throat clearing] Excuse me. Back then, if I remember, we was kind of in a, in a slow time so we didn’t, we didn’t have a lot of overtime. Um, yeah, you have to go to all the areas so it’s, it’s broken down like the body shop, you would have more hours in the body shop than you would in, in the facility arena and maybe second you would have up in paint depending on the workload, how much work was involved. Cheryl McQuaid: [14:51] What area did you like the most? David Karkau: Um, I kind of, I really don’t have one area. They’re all different. You learn something, you do something different in each area. Um, the construction part I liked that. You got to, I was able to use my math that I thought I’d never be able to use. Um, in, in, in the body shop, it’s more of a hands-on mechanical type deal, so your mechanical abilities are, are used out there. Um, paint, that’s the place to stay away from unless you like when you mix all the colors together they all come out purple, so unless you’re in to purple paint, it’s the place to stay away from. Michael Fleming: Dave, um, in the skilled trades arena they have what we call lines of demarcation. [15:49] Explain the lines of demarcation and how you as a pipefitter interact with other trades to get a particular job done. David Karkau: Okay, lines of demarcation is the, is a distinct, uh, divider, if you want to say, between the trades. Um, which means electric, electricians do not do pipefitting work. Pipefitters do not do electrical work. Millwrights do not do electrical work. We don’t – we all have our own job descriptions, okay, and they’re all defined. They’re in black and white. Um, if you’re on a job and it requires the work of an electrician and a pipefitter, you work together. You do your, your part of the job, the electrician does his part of the job. You do not do each other’s work. That’s something that as we, as I came in to the apprenticeship that, that’s taught to you right from the beginning, so there is a distinct division between all the trades. Michael Fleming: And if I’m not mistaken Dave, a lot of this is more so for safety reasons than... David Karkau: Safety reasons. Michael Fleming: ...anything else. David Karkau: Yes. Safety reasons, um, your personal, your own personal protection, and I would imagine the protection of any and everybody around you as well as machinery. You don’t want to damage that. You don’t want to hurt yourself. Yes. Cheryl McQuaid: When you hired in this was known as Fisher Body. David Karkau: Yes, it was. Cheryl McQuaid: [17:29] Do you, do you have any feelings about the name changes that occurred, um, what it was like working for Fisher Body compared to BOC, LCA? Have you noticed any big changes in the building itself? David Karkau: I don’t think the building itself has changed because of the, of the name changes. Um, we’ve had additions put on the building but that doesn’t have anything to do with the change of the building, or the change of the names. Um, before we changed to – was it BOC first...? Female: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. David Karkau: ...which was Buick, Olds, Cadillac, okay, it was Fisher Body. Um, at that time I think there was only two Fisher Body’s left. I think we were one and Flint was one and then when we changed, I don’t know if they, if Flint changed before we did. I think we changed before Flint so it left one Fisher Body. And, yeah, we worked here for – that was changed in the 80s I think, middle 80s, so it went 10 years, Um, I mean it didn’t change anything that we did. It just, um, the only thing I see really changed was, was the name signs on the front of the building and the end of the building it was changed. Doreen Howard: [18:58] What was your personal feelings about the name changes and what do you call the building today? David Karkau: Today, I still refer to it as Fisher Body. A lot of people refer to it as Plant 6. Um, I, I still call it Fisher Body, which I think most people that hired in back when I did probably do. The newer hires probably BOC, probably LCA, whatever. Um, it’s still Fisher Body to me. What was the second part of your question? Doreen Howard: [19:39] Um, what’s your feelings on...? David Karkau: Oh. You know, back them I probably had a feeling when it changed. Right now I don’t remember. [laughter] Um, there’s been so much going on lately that [chuckle] I don’t, I don’t know if I have a feeling. I probably did then but I don’t now. Michael Fleming: Dave, um, [throat clearing] most of the jobs in the big three are considered jobs with the golden handcuffs. [20:09] Uh, can you talk a little bit about the benefits that you have received by working here from then versus now and the amount of money that you have garnered at the most, at the height of your career? What was the most you’ve ever made within this facility? David Karkau: That’s a lot of questions you asked me. Um, I guess I’ll start from the first or the, the end of your questions. The most money I’ve ever made, I didn’t quite make 100,000 one year but I was very, very close. That was on the third shift. Um, I don’t remember what I, what I started out at as an apprentice. I can remember when I worked at Motor Wheel it was $4.41, I remember that number. I don’t remember what it was here. Um, what are some of the other questions, the benefits? Michael Fleming: Benefits that you’ve received. David Karkau: Um. Michael Fleming: [21:06] You know, such as your educational opportunities, you know, your healthcare, you know, what do you think about those things? David Karkau: Well, uh, the benefits, if you don’t have benefits you probably don’t know what, what I’m talking about but to have benefits, um, to be able to go to the hospital and not have to pay for this, to be able to go to the, to the dentist, take your kids in to have braces, um, yeah, those, those are worth their weight in gold. Um, hopefully we’ll – through the 29 years that I’ve been here I don’t think we’ve lost any benefits. Um, if, if anything they’ve gotten better, um, or stayed the same but I don’t think we’ve lost any of them, which is great. Um, my whole family has benefited from that. Marilyn Coulter: Dave. David Karkau: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [22:01] And I know that you said that you made close to 100,000 in one year but can you let the people know what that, what was required of you to make that type of money...? David Karkau: Oh yeah. Marilyn Coulter: ...in terms of hours, in terms of what you had to do? David Karkau: Sure. Um, in order to achieve that amount, I worked seven days a week. Probably the only time I had off was my vacation time, which probably at that time was three weeks. Um, there would probably be some, uh, 10-hour days in there and there was probably the third shift premium in there, which is 10%. Marilyn Coulter: [22:50] Was there a downside to that as far as your family was concerned? David Karkau: Oh, big time. You don’t realize that until after you stop working that, um, not only to your, downside to your family, which they grow up and you don’t see, um, you don’t spend a lot of time with them and then when you do spend time, uh, you’re tired. That was one of the, the two things. The tiredness was something that really affected me. You don’t know that until you see somebody else, um, some of your fellow workers that you’re working with, you know, when you take a couple weeks’ vacation or a week’s vacation you come back in and you see them dragging, well, you’re just like them. So yeah, two things, health, I’m sure health-wise, uh, not a good idea. Um, at the present time we’re just working 40 hours and that seems pretty good so you, you feel like you have a little more energy. But yeah, it took its toll on my family. My girls grew up and I guess I felt as though – I mean the overtime was optional, you don’t have to work it. In the beginning I think we did. We had blackout periods during changeovers and we had what they called Plan A and Plan – I think it was just called Plan A where in order to have a Saturday off you had to work two prior to. Sundays were always optional. Marilyn Coulter: [24:16] And that’s what a blackout period is? David Karkau: No, the blackout period is so many weeks before changeover and so many weeks after. Marilyn Coulter: And that meant you couldn’t [inaudible 24:25]. David Karkau: You could not take any time off before. Michael Fleming: Until production got up to... David Karkau: Right. There were so many weeks before, before changeover was the blackout period and so many weeks after the start of production when they come back from the model change or changeover, so there was probably 12 weeks in there where you could not take time off. Doreen Howard: [24:46] And why? David Karkau: You would, you would be disciplined for it. Doreen Howard: [24:49] Why did they have such a blackout period? David Karkau: They needed those people, they needed all the maintenance people there to perform their, their jobs on the equipment to ensure, uh, the model would, would run, would go down the assembly line. Marilyn Coulter: [25:06] So because you spent so much time inside the plant with your coworkers, um, did it become a second family for you? David Karkau: Pretty much, yes, it did. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. David Karkau: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [25:16] So what types of things did you guys do as an in-plant family? David Karkau: Anything and everything we did as an in-plant family was done here in-plant. We didn’t have time to go anyplace else. Um, you probably really don’t want to hear those stories. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Only if you want to tell’m. David Karkau: You know, what we would do is on, um, a lot of, I can remember a lot of times in the summertime on, on weekends, especially Sundays, uh, our families would come up, um, bring a picnic, bring a lunch, um, and we’d have three or four families do that. Um, and we’d sit right out in front right on the lawn and have a picnic, bring your kids, um. Doreen Howard: That’s nice. David Karkau: We’ve done that. We’ve went over to the little park, I don’t know what the name of that park is right over here by the little school off Verlinden. Um, we’ve sat there and had a picnic. Doreen Howard: At least try to get a little bit of time in with your family at some point. David Karkau: Yeah, if you want to call that quality time but back then we didn’t have a lot of time off. Doreen Howard: [26:26] Did you guys have like in-plant dinners or retirement parties or what did you guys do during lunch other than little picnics? David Karkau: Um, we had in-plant parties and we involved all the skilled trades. The skilled trades kind of stuck together. There was kind of somewhat of a dividing line between production and skilled trades. We just kind of stuck together. And, yeah, we’d have parties, uh, retirement parties, um, and these, when I first came in to trades, all these parties were home-cooked food and as time went on as people retired, um, the older ones when they left, the younger ones it seemed like, uh, the home-cooked food started leaving. Um, we would, in the end I guess to, to make a long story short, you’d be buying pizza and have pizza parties where in the beginning we’d have home-cooked. And, and during our Christmas breaks, um, we’d put on the Christmas party, which was a pretty big to-do thing and for two weeks we had refrigerators that we kept the food in and so for – it didn’t last two weeks but for three or four days afterwards ‘cause we were all here still, um, we had more parties. Doreen Howard: [28:06] You, you touched base a little bit about the changes in the people’s attitudes and I guess and, um, explain a little bit more about the differences that, that you saw between the people that came in in your generation compared to the new hires that came in years later. You touched a little bit upon that. David Karkau: Okay. Um, when I hired in there was very little automation, so everything was done manually, okay. Even the workers, I mean, it was a physical, it was manual, physical labor to work on equipment. We didn’t have all these hoists. I mean we had some things but we didn’t have the, the mechanical ability to do a lot of this stuff. It was all done manual, okay, using your, your body I guess you might say as opposed to nowadays, um, there’s more automation. Um, it requires probably less physical work to, to work on things now than, than it did back then. Um, I think what I look at now, if you look at the trades people, the amount of people in the trades is, is diminishing except for the electricians. Their numbers are growing, which kind of shows me that we, we’re in the age of the computers and all this and all the machinery is, is computerized now, full of robots. Um, we lost a lot of people in the body shop when, when we brought robots in so, um, that required more maintenance people. But now to even show you what they’ve done with the robots, when the robots first come in they was hydraulic, some electricity on them and some hydraulic on them and some air on them. Now the robots that come in are all electric, the guns work off electricity. The, the clamping motions are all electric. They have servo valves in them. Um, there’s no hydraulics anymore. There’s, there’s no, no air on them, no water, just electric. Doreen Howard: [30:37] So that’s eliminating some of the skills that’s necessary to maintain them? David Karkau: Yes, it is. [throat clearing] Doreen Howard: Thus reducing the trades employees all, all around. David Karkau: Yes. It’s reducing skilled trades by doing that too. Michael Fleming: [30:50] Dave, very, very briefly explain what servos are. David Karkau: A servo you’re getting into a territory that I don’t know that much about because it’s electrical but it’s, it’s a, it’s, um – well, you got me on a good one there. I’m not even going to explain it because I’d probably explain it wrong. Doreen Howard: Okay, um. Cheryl McQuaid: You touched also that there was a division between the hourly and the skilled trades. [31:23] Why do you think there was a division there? And I guess I’d just like to hear a little bit more about that division. David Karkau: I think in my eyes there’s a division because I think that as a production person you’re with production people all the time. You’re surrounded by production people, okay. Um, the only time you see a maintenance person is when they have to come fix something, so they don’t get to intertwine, intermingle with each other that much so I don’t think their relationships are that close. I don’t know if it’s really a dividing line but it’s just, um, they just don’t get to spend a lot of time together so, um, they’re not really acquainted with each other, um, as you would be if you was working next to somebody each and every day. Cheryl McQuaid: What do you think the feeling is, um, from – you’ve played both sides. You, you were hourly when you first hired in and then you became skilled trades. [32:33] How do you think the skilled trades views the hourly production worker? David Karkau: How does the skilled trades view the hourly? I don’t know, um, how everybody feels on that. I can tell you how I feel or how I view the production people. I used to be one of them, so I know where they’re coming from when they have something that’s not right. Um, I know that until you fix it and fix it right or fix it the way that they want it, it may not be right but whatever it takes to make them happy, that’s what you have to do, so. Um, like I said, I used to be one of them, so I know where they’re coming from. Cheryl McQuaid: [33:19] And do you think that’s the, how most skilled trades feel about the...? David Karkau: I would think so. I would hope so. I don’t know if that’s true but I would hope so. I mean if you keep the production people happy, you’re happy. Marilyn Coulter: Um, Dave, um. David Karkau: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: [33:40] Uh, since you’ve been here for so long, have you ever been active in your local union? David Karkau: Yes, I have. Marilyn Coulter: [33:46] What types of activity have you done with that? David Karkau: Um, I don’t, okay, active, I don’t do, I haven’t done any, any activities. Um, I, I have a job now. It’s, it’s union-appointed. I guess it’s a joint appointment through management and union, um. Doreen Howard: [34:07] What is your title and...? David Karkau: That is called subcontracting and planning. Marilyn Coulter: So you’re doing what’s called a non-traditional job right now. David Karkau: Um, yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [34:19] So is this the first time you’ve been active in the union or were you just active in going to meetings? How were you active? David Karkau: I’m active in going to meetings, yeah. Marilyn Coulter: That’s good. [34:29] And, um, as you’ve been involved in, with that, um, how, um, do you think the union involvement has changed over the years? David Karkau: That’s a good question. I don’t know what the union involvement was before I started going. Um, I think I’ve been going to union meetings for about eight or nine years. Uh, it’s hard to answer that... Marilyn Coulter: Okay. David Karkau: ...because I don’t know what it was like before. Marilyn Coulter: [35:03] So, um, do you participate in the, um, political and social activities with the union? David Karkau: Uh, no. I don’t do any of the political, um, the social, no. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Well, now I know with skilled trades and the union involved, I know skilled trades always seemed to be a big voting force during election time. [35:25] Would you think that that’s because of your strong brotherhood that you had? David Karkau: I would think so. I would hope, I would hope it is, yeah. Doreen Howard: You started to touch base on your current job. [35:39] Um, can you explain what it is that you do, um, at this time, what your job is and what it entails? David Karkau: It’s called subcontracting and planning. It’s, um, it’s a job where I interface between, um, management and union and what I, I guess my main objectives are to keep all the skilled trades work in the plant that’s possible, so I’m kind of the skilled trades’ voice in decision making with, with the managers. Michael Fleming: [36:20] Another place where you get to use your math, Dave? David Karkau: Uh, yeah. [laughter] I get to use my math. [chuckle] Marilyn Coulter: [36:26] So you’re kind of an in-sourcer, huh? David Karkau: Yeah. Michael Fleming: [36:29] Uh, can you talk about the math that you use as far as I’m sure we have bids and contracts and stuff like that? David Karkau: It’s working with numbers, with monies, with bids, with manpower, um, yeah. Doreen Howard: So let me see if I have that, this right. Your job is to try to keep as many of our skilled trades people working and keep them employed and not bring outside contractors in for those jobs. David Karkau: Correct. Doreen Howard: Okay. So you say that you’re really not that heavily involved in your union. It sounds like you would be quite involved with your union because you’re representing your fellow union workers and, and helping to maintain their, their jobs. David Karkau: Yes, saying it that way or putting it that way, yes, I guess I would be. Marilyn Coulter: You’re a piece of the puzzle. Doreen Howard: Yeah. David Karkau: I’m a piece of the puzzle, right. I don’t, I didn’t, I guess I didn’t look at it that way but yeah. Linda Johnson: [37:38] How many outside contractors have you kept out of here? David Karkau: All of them. [laughter] There’s, uh, most people don’t know, um, I don’t know numbers. I just know that since I started this job that, um, it’s very rare that we do have contractors come in the plant here at Fisher Body. Now that this plant is closing, um, we have new challenges at the Delta plant, which is going to be a real nightmare for a while but we, our, our goal is to keep all of them out. Um, we didn’t achieve that goal but we got pretty close to it. We got more and more work for, for our, for our skilled trades, more and more of the jobs stayed in-house. Doreen Howard: [38:31] Now were you involved at all with, um, the Delta project in helping to retain any of the work that’s, that was going to be shipped to other factories or given to other contract, outside contractors? Were you involved in, in that? David Karkau: I’m in the process of being involved with that as we speak. Um, there’s – I deal with the skilled trades so if you’re, if, I think part of your question was referring to production. I don’t deal with production. I think they have somebody else that does that. Doreen Howard: Okay. David Karkau: Um, but yes, with the skilled trades we’re in the process of, of working on, um, the jobs that, uh, we have to fulfill with, with the type of work that we’re doing. Yes, we’ve, we’re in the process of hiring some skilled trades because we need, uh, we have more work, more areas to cover than what we have people, so. Doreen Howard: That’s a good thing. That’s good. Michael Fleming: [39:39] Another question becomes here is will we do an area hire? Will we see new social security numbers? How are we going to do that? Do you have any idea? David Karkau: Um, that’s in the hands of the skilled trade zone and the, and the shop chair. I don’t know. Yes, we will be seeing new social security numbers. Um, I don’t know how we’re getting them. I think some of them are coming from area hire. Um, we’re going to, we’re going to take care of our own people, which when we go to the Delta plant they broke the skilled trades down to core and noncore. The core trades are the electricians, pipefitters, millwrights, and toolmakers. The noncore are the carpenters, the tinters, and truck repair, and small tool repair. The noncores will not be going as their trades, whatever their trade is they will not be going over to Delta as that trade. Instead, we worked out a deal with management that we will be putting on, we will be offering 38 people which encompasses those four noncore trades the EIT program, and that’s Employee In Training, so we’re going to do that. And we’re working on, um, apprentices but I don’t think they’re going to be affected. We’re not going to get any apprentices until the year 2007, but we’re working on that, so we’re not just taking our people and putting them out the door. We’re kind of... Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 41:20]. David Karkau: ...taking them under our wing and going with them. Michael Fleming: It sounds as though the trades has a very bright future. David Karkau: Yeah, yeah, we’re doing okay, I think, I hope. Doreen Howard: [41:29] So they’re hoping to retrain some of the people that they have in order to retain them in other skills? David Karkau: Yes. What our main objective was to employ these people, not put them in the jobs bank, not lay them off but to give them an opportunity to finish out their careers, uh, with General Motors. Um, so by offering them the, the program, the EIT programs, hopefully they can cash in on that and finish out their career, whatever, however long it will be. Doreen Howard: [42:09] Um, going back to our facility, give me your personal feelings on the closing of Fisher Body. David Karkau: That was a sad day when they announced that. Um, couple years ago they come by and told everybody that the plant will be closing. Well, two years ago I think we all thought, yeah right, we’ve heard this before. Um, we’ve gotten other cars in, it just, it just didn’t happen. And when the day finally came and I think we, we lost a line first. There was a buildup to this before the doors actually closed. Um, I think they slowed the lines down, then they, they shut a line right off, and then I think then everybody started, hey, this really might happen. And then when the day came it was actually a year earlier than what it was supposed to be and so it was kind of a shock, a bigger shock. I mean you come to work and they’re going to tell you, they did tell us that in two weeks, I think it was two weeks or three weeks that the doors will be closing and they did. And it was kind of, it was a real shock. It was kind of an empty feeling for a lot of people, myself included, what are we going to do now, where are we going, so. Doreen Howard: [43:40] What kind of vehicles do you drive? [sneezing] David Karkau: [chuckle] Really? Doreen Howard: Yeah. Do you, do you drive, have you...? David Karkau: Mine are all, mine are all GM. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. David Karkau: I’d hate to be the guy sitting here that had to tell you Isuzu or something. [laughter] Mine are all GM. They’ve always been GM except for one vehicle in ’79 I bought a Ford but other than that, they’ve all been GM. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: [44:06] Can you talk about some of the ones you had were they manufactured here in the past? David Karkau: Um, what did I buy that, I – no, I don’t think any of mine were manufactured here. I had a Chevette and that was, we didn’t build those here and, uh, but I do remember guys that, that did order cars that we built here back in the, in the late 70s, um, which was 88s and 98s and the Toronado and you could go up front and get your number of your vehicle and you could go find it out in the body shop. He’d tell you when it was going to be, what shift, what time it was going to be made and you could track that through. And for all, I, I swear, for all the guys that did that when it come time, you know, put a couple more welds here, put a couple more there but – up in the sealer, up in paint, um, hey, put some more sealer here, add a little more there, so that did go on with everybody, everybody that tracked their cars through, make sure there’s no runs in the paint, which normally there isn’t. They usually do a pretty good job of painting. Cheryl McQuaid: Extra deadener in the trunk. David Karkau: Yes, yes. Doreen Howard: All the extra things for people, yeah. David Karkau: A little extra, yeah. But that was, I didn’t have any that I chased through but there, there was people that did. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 45:32]. [45:35] Um, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we haven’t touched base on at all today? David Karkau: Uh, geez, I don’t know what it would be. My most favorable moment here... Doreen Howard: Yeah. David Karkau: ...is the day that, um, I’ve had a lot of them but the day that I graduated from apprenticeship. First, I think the, the very first one is the day I was accepted as an, as an apprentice [sneezing] because that was a, that was quite an ordeal back then, taking the test, working changeovers, doing anything and everything you could do to get extra points to, the more points you had, the farther up the list you went. And it was discouraging, there was myself and a guy by the name of Bruce [Shoop 46:24], which is in Tennessee now. He’s at the Saturn plant. But we both come on as pipefitters but we had to wait quite some time. Back then they was in, um, for some reason there was a shortage of journeymen and they had to hire a couple of them, three or four, I don’t know, but we had to wait, um, until the apprentice committee in the national, uh, local or national union, national would approve us to go on so there, it wasn’t like you just got your numbers up to the top of the list and you went on. You had, we had to wait for openings and so that was kind of discouraging having to wait but the day I heard that I was, that I was going on was a good moment and the day I graduated that was a real good moment. Jerri Smith: [47:18] Did they do anything special for you for graduation? David Karkau: Oh, if I remember, which I probably don’t, but I think we all went over across the street to Harry’s and, and had a beer and celebrated. Male: [47:32] Did, did the corporation give you anything for certain anniversaries as you worked here? David Karkau: Yeah, I was just going to go back on that one. You asked me if they did anything when I graduated. That’s what the guys, I think all of us just went over there and had a couple beers and just celebrated. But the Company gave me, oh geez, I think there was some, there was a wallet I remember, the certificate of where you completed your apprenticeship, um, it seemed like there was something else. But during the years that I’d been here, yes, we’ve all gotten, uh, um, I don’t know, milestones that we’ve hit here. I don’t know, I don’t remember what they all are. I’ve got quite a collection of that stuff, which probably a lot of people do, coasters, um, bookmarks, um, yeah, we’ve – jackets. Um, I thought I had a one-of-a-kind jacket. I guess I do in here. Um, yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve gotten different things. Cheryl McQuaid: [48:41] Do you remember your favorite boss? David Karkau: My favorite boss, how could anybody have a favorite boss? [laughter] Um, probably if I was to answer that, I don’t know if I had a favorite boss. Cheryl McQuaid: [49:00] How about least favorite? David Karkau: A least favorite, yeah, all of them. [laughter] Probably [Darryl Story 49:08] would be, um, one of the guys that I looked up to as a boss. Um, when I came in as a helper before the apprenticeship when I still worked in the body shop, um, on production, we came in to help the, the journeymen during the changeover times and, uh, I worked with [Darryl Story 49:35] and I learned quite a bit. He was one of the first ones I worked with that’s probably why, um, I remember him the most and then he went on salary later as a, as a pipefitter boss so we still had that tie as a, as a worker and now he’s a boss but we still had a pretty good relationship, so he’s, he’s a pretty good [inaudible 49:57]. Cheryl McQuaid: So he started hourly and went on to salary. David Karkau: Yes, he did, yes. [throat clearing] Doreen Howard: Earlier on you touched base on a few of the pranks and things like that. [50:10] Do you have any more fun stories to tell us? David Karkau: Oh geez. Doreen Howard: [50:13] Or anything funny that happened or? David Karkau: Well, I think I mentioned earlier about or somebody asked me if any pranks were pulled on me when I came in and I don’t remember those. I remember some of the ones that I pulled on... Doreen Howard: Other. David Karkau: ...other people. Doreen Howard: Okay, let’s hear those. [laughter] David Karkau: Well, when I went, when I went up in paint as a journeyman pipefitter after leaving the body shop it was a new area to me and we had a new crib we had to organize so I was in charge of that. So by organizing the new crib, we got us a, one of these white boards that you can use one of those, use the erasable felt tip markers on. Well, that board was supposed to be used for breakdowns if we was leaving, it was communication between the shifts of the pipefitters in that crib and I would write different messages on the board for, uh, for all. The, the new hires they were instructed through the message board to go to the union hall, this was around Christmastime, to pick up their, uh, Christmas hams, um, which we didn’t pass out but they got those, were instructed to go there. I would put on there, um, it wasn’t really pranks but I, I called the board show time and, uh, at 9:00 I’d, I’d write a time on the board where people could come by. And, and I think a lot of times you’d hear maintenance, people would say maintenance all they do is they sit on their ass. Well, we put the board up or had the board there and show time so at 9:00 they could come by and watch us work. We’d have pump rebuild class or something and it got to where we had quite a few people coming by. So they’re not really – the prank thing with the, with the new hires going to the union hall that was, that, that, uh, so the committeemen tell me that raised a lot of problems with, with them because they, they endured quite a few committee calls with that. Then there’s the normal pranks that the maintenance guys play on each other, um, water fights in the summertime with the fire extinguishers. Um, I think, uh, if I remember, riding around in trim on hot days and you’ll see, uh, the, um, production people complaining that the fans aren’t working or you’re not getting enough air or something and, uh, the maintenance people would have to go clean them, which would be a millwright or something, and it was always nice just to go up and tap on the fan while he was working on it or just before he started working on it we would do that. Doreen Howard: Get dust all over him. David Karkau: Oh yeah, it was all dust, yeah, kind of a sooty type deal. Doreen Howard: [chuckle] They probably didn’t appreciate that a whole lot. David Karkau: No, nobody did but [laughter] it’s things that we did. Doreen Howard: Uh, and sticky. David Karkau: There’s probably more but I can’t remember all of it. Doreen Howard: [53:32] Okay, well, in wrapping up here, um, is there any words of wisdom that you could offer to the new people that will be coming in? David Karkau: Words of wisdom, just come to work every day. Doreen Howard: Work every day. David Karkau: Yeah, come to work every day and don’t forget your families. Don’t bring them to work every day. [laughter] But just remember that you have families. Doreen Howard: Okay. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you Dave. Doreen Howard: Yes. Jerri Smith: Thank you. Michael Fleming: Dave, thank you very much. [tape clicked off] [54:11] Dave, um, had you been through any strikes here at Fisher Body? David Karkau: Yeah, I think there’s only been one since I’ve been here and I think that was back in, uh, just shortly after I hired in back in ’78, ’79 maybe, somewhere in there, ’78 probably. Michael Fleming: [54:32] Uh, can you talk about the things you did through the strike and what happened? What was the...? David Karkau: Well, from what I can remember, um, I think we actually walked out because I think, I, I know I went like a night or two nights before the deadline, whatever that was, and we put together strike signs at the union hall where we stapled the fronts and the halves together and then slid the, the piece of wood in between them and stapled that to the wood. We made, I don’t know, hundreds of those and we put them in, we stacked them in the back of pickups I remember that. And then the day that we walked out and I’m not sure why we walked out if it was a 30-and-out issue, I’m not sure but I don’t know if it was 30-and-out. I think it might have been local demands that we was after. Um, I’m not really sure but, yeah, we passed those out. I, I remember doing that. Michael Fleming: [55:37] Do you know how long you stayed out? David Karkau: Oh, it wasn’t very long. Um, I don’t remember but it, it wasn’t a lengthy strike I know that. Michael Fleming: [55:44] Did you receive any strike pay, you know what that was at the time? David Karkau: Um, I don’t remember if I received that or not but I know it wasn’t very much. And I might have. We might have been out long enough to, to get some strike pay ‘cause now that you bring that up because that, that number wasn’t very much and it seems like we, it seems like I was worried about because the strike pay was so little that you couldn’t stay out for very long, you know, and, and afford to be out. Back then, uh, most of us, I, I don’t know if I’m speaking for, for most of us but speaking for myself, wasn’t able to save money. I mean the money I was making, I was, I was spending for my family, so yeah, a strike would have definitely, definitely hurt. The strike pay was not very much. How much I drew, I don’t remember, I really don’t. Michael Fleming: [56:42] But if it had been any longer you think you would have probably had to look for another job or what would you have done? David Karkau: Well, I wasn’t to that point but I’m sure that would cross somebody’s mind that, um, yeah, if you’re going to be out for, for months, um, yeah, you may have to look for another job. Um, I don’t remember. That’s 29 years ago [inaudible 57:04], [laughter] a long time ago. Michael Fleming: Well, Dave, I want to thank you for, for sharing that with us. /mlc