Mark Kirkey discusses his career as a production worker, skilled trades toolmaker and UAW member at the Fisher Body Plant in Lansing, MI Mike Fleming: [recorder clicking] [papers rustling] Lansing Fisher Body Historical [background movement] Team. [papers rustling] I'm Mike Fleming. Uh, it is October 14th at 7:15 a.m. [background movement] We have today with us Mr. Mark Kirkey. [creaking] [0:16] Mark, would you state your full name and your address [banging] for the record, please? Mark Kirkey: Mark Robert Kirkey, [background movement] 6940 Mills Highway, Eaton Rapids, Michigan. [background movement] Mike Fleming: [0:27] Uh, [background movement] your marital status? Mark Kirkey: Married. [papers rustling] Mike Fleming: [0:32] Do you have any children, Mark? Mark Kirkey: Five. [background movement] Mike Fleming: [0:35] How about ages? [tapping] [papers rustling] Mark Kirkey: Uh, age 23 to 29. [tapping] Mike Fleming: [0:44] And, uh, your education or military service? [Inaudible 0:49]. [background movement] Mark Kirkey: No military service. Education for apprenticeship, 2 years a college. Mike Fleming: [0:54] Uh, what type of apprenticeship was that? [tapping] What type of apprenticeship was that, sir? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Toolmaker. [tapping] Mike Fleming: Toolmaker. Okay. [tapping] We gonna go around and introduce [tapping] the people in the room. [tapping] Doreen Howard: Doreen Howard. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [papers rustling] Linda Johnson: Linda Johnson. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [papers rustling] John Fedewa: John Fedewa. [tapping] Mike Fleming: [1:14] Mark, I'd like for you to tell me about your – the day [tapping] that you hired in and what department that you hired into. [scraping] [writing] Mark Kirkey: Hm, the day I hired in, I spent a whole week over in Main Street School [laughter]. I never made it into the plant until the week [tapping] after I hired in. [tapping] And I started out in Trim, intermittent relief man. [tapping] I hired in as Production. [tapping] Mike Fleming: [1:42] Do you know what shift that was? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Yeah. First shift. Doreen Howard: [1:45] What, what date was the hire date? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: 11/19/84. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 1:53]. [papers rustling] Doug Rademacher: [1:53] Well why don't you share a quick thing about, uh, [sniffing] that Main Street experience [throat clearing] since that's where you, uh, were initiated to the Fisher Body plant. Mark Kirkey: It was the first – yeah, initiation to GM. I'm thinkin' these fools are nuts. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: There was a lotta that... Mark Kirkey: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: ...sentiment going on – sentiment, so do share. Mark Kirkey: [Inaudible 2:13] I never considered, and I never had anything to do with [it 2:15]. Yeah. [papers rustling] It was kinda crazy. Then I get in here, [papers rustling] and it's totally [tapping] different. So [tapping] they kind of blew it out of – I spent a week, for some reason, [tapping] sitting over in the school with somebody tellin' me how things were gonna be. And I walk in here, and it ain't that way. [laughter] I'm going, well, this is just about like I'm used to. [laughter] [throat clearing] But no, I spent 3 years on the line, [tapping] intermittent relief in utility between [tapping] Soft Trim and Hard Trim. [tapping] And then it was 3 years of fighting to get on Skilled Trade. Doug Rademacher: [2:49] Did you already carry your... Mark Kirkey: I carried my card when I walked in the door. Doug Rademacher: [2:56] So why don't you tell a little bit about your, uh, first day on assembly line. [tapping] Mark Kirkey: It was good. [tapping] [Inaudible 3:04] they pay you to do this? This kinda money? [laughter] I mean it, it [tapping] was just kind of unreal. I, uh, it was a pretty good [tapping] scam as far as I was concerned. Doug Rademacher: [3:15] Well, tell me, what, what did you do prior to walking in to General Motors? Sounds like... Mark Kirkey: Working in a... Doug Rademacher: Sounds like... Mark Kirkey: ...drop forge. Doug Rademacher: Sounds like you worked. [throat clearing] So, uh... Mark Kirkey: Yeah. I worked in a drop forge. [papers rustling] You take – a [tapping] coffee break consisted of goin' to the coffee machine, gettin' a cup of coffee, takin' it back to your bench and then coverin' it with a piece of cardboard or [tapping] somethin' so you didn't get dust in it. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: [3:33] [tapping] Was that a union job also? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Oh yes. Worked for the International Die Sinker Conference. [tapping] [tsk] They had UAW in the shop also. [papers rustling] [tapping] Doug Rademacher: [3:44] [tapping] So you were used to hard labor. [tapping] So... Mark Kirkey: No. I just used to workin'. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: Yeah. Mark Kirkey: Stayin' busy all the time. Not, not necessarily hard labor, just busy all the time. Somethin' to do. If you didn't have somethin' on 1 job to do, you always had 2 or 3 back-up on your bench [tapping] somewhere. [papers rustling] [tapping] And you always had repairs comin' in from [tapping] the Press Floor or Hammer Shop. So... [tapping] Marilyn Coulter: [4:05] Is that where you got your trade? There? Mark Kirkey: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: Drop forge? Mark Kirkey: Yep. It's actually a die-sinker instead of a toolmaker, but in here it's [as a 4:14] toolmaker. Doreen Howard: [4:17] So the environment there was, um, dirty? [background movement] Mark Kirkey: Yeah. [tapping] Mm-hm. [laughter] Doreen Howard: [4:21] Was it loud? [background movement] [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Yeah. Loud. Greasy. [tapping] Doreen Howard: [4:24] And then you came here, and [tapping] – describe the environment that you came into in the Trim Department. [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Quiet for the most part considerin' what I was used to. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: [4:36] What [tapping] about the clothing you could wear? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: That was the nice part. [tapping] I didn't have to worry about gettin' filthy. [tapping] At the drop forge, [tapping] you took a shower before you left. You had to change clothes and everything else 'cause you couldn't wear [tapping] the same clothes day after day. Most a the time you had to change [tapping] clothes in the middle of shift. [laughter] [tapping] Doug Rademacher: So it was a good move for you. Mark Kirkey: Yeah. It was good mo-, well, I had made the move strictly for monetary purposes. [tapping] The Reagan Era, back in '84 of that impasse deal that he come up with, the unions and the companies under negotiations, I was [tapping] lookin' at losin' $3 an hour in pay. [tapping] I walk in here, I lost a buck and a half an hour, but I had – 16 and 18 months I was gonna be back over what I was already at. And I didn't have to worry about gettin' my benefits cut. [tapping] It was kind of a rough [road 5:33] – [tapping] move for me to make with kids and everything else, [tapping] worrying about their insurance and stuff. [tapping] But I had to do somethin'. [tapping] About the same position the [Delphi 5:42] folks are in right now. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: Yeah. It's funny how you say that. [tapping] You brought back the, the Reagan... Mark Kirkey: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: ...and the cuts, and look at where we're at today. Mark Kirkey: It's the same thing. It's where [them laws 5:52] came from. [background movement] Mike Fleming: [5:56] Do you have any family members that work here, Mark? [sniffing] Mark Kirkey: No. Mike Fleming: [6:05] Um, within the skilled trades arena [that it's, uh 6:09], since you made that move back in – what year would – what year did you – '87? Mark Kirkey: '87 I went [inaudible 6:14]. [tapping] Mike Fleming: [6:16] From '87 until now, [tapping] how do you feel the trades have, have come? [tapping] Are they – is it any better than it was then? [tapping] Or [sniffing] describe what you feel the changes have been within your arena from '87 until, [tapping] here we are in '06, almost. Mark Kirkey: Well, there's been good and bad all the way through it. I mean, there's, there's been bosses that [tapping] – it used to be General Motors promoted from within the trades. [tapping] So if you were in a trade, your boss was a [tradesman 6:46]. [tapping] Now it's not so [laughter]. Usually the bosses you have now, they just threw in there because General Motors has got this philosophy that if you're a supervisor, it doesn't matter what you're supervisin'. They just throw you in everywhere. [background movement] [tapping] And they're doing the same thing with engineering staff. So, big deal. [tapping] It's gotten good. It's gotten better. [tapping] I've had my chances to improve it. Right now I'm in a process of tryin' to help improve the situation [sniffing] for the new plant. [tapping] Uh, I like to think that I improved [beeping] at least my area. [beeping] [tapping] [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: [7:27] Mark, can you tell us some of the big impacts that you were able to change at the Fisher Body? Mike Fleming: Yeah. [background movement] Um, the supervisor that I had [background movement] – well, a couple different times [tapping] – it seemed [to 7:42] I always ended up back with him because I – every time I either got changed in an area or got moved around, he seemed to pull his reign in, and I got – ended up workin' for him [laughter]. He was, uh, [tapping] one a the few supervisors that [tapping] knew what he was doin' and let his people do their job. [tapping] And he was good. He'd, uh [tapping] – what he didn't know, he'd try to figure out, and he'd let his people do their work. [tapping] He trusted his people. He did – he had a handpicked crew. [tapping] If somebody on his crew wasn't doin' their job, they disappeared [sniffing] to somebody else. He – for some reason, he had that pull. Um, by doin' that, [tapping] it gave me a little bit of more input, a little bit more leeway. [tapping] Um, a couple a guys that I've worked with and teamed up with, uh, it's been great as far as makin' the areas better, settin' up the areas better. [background movement] [tapping] Um, and I also spent 4 years on per diem directly supervising the toolmaker group. [tapping] [papers rustling] And I was put in charge of all the swing metal leaving the plant. Female: Mm-hm. Mark Kirkey: [Outta 8:57] the front-end sheet metals. Both of'm. [tapping] Female: Hm. Cheryl McQuaid: [9:02] So how did you like being [inaudible 9:03] [tapping] – and for those people who don't know what per diem is, can you tell'm what per diem is? Mark Kirkey: Per diem is a supervisor's position, but you're paid hourly. You're not part of the local. You're also not part of management. You're kind of in a limbo. Um, part of it is to see whether or not they [background movement] want you to become permanent or whether you want to stay on it. And it [tapping] has its goods and bads. [tapping] Um, I have to admit [background movement] that I had probably one a the best supervisors to work for [background movement] as a per diem, so that kinda cushioned me a little bit [tapping] because we had some upper management that wasn't too congenial to what we needed to do. So he gave me a little extra push and helped me in the back, [tapping] back end so that I didn't have to fight so much. Mike Fleming: [9:51] Who was that, [sir 9:52]? Mark Kirkey: Mike [Greene 9:54]. [tapping] He was in charge of the engineering group, and they made a big switch. [tapping] And [Gary] [Pennison 10:01] got [tapping] everything in the back end, and Mike, Mike Greene got everything in the front ends. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: [10:06] [tapping] And Mike made it comfortable to work? Or Mike was difficult to work with? Mark Kirkey: I've worked with Mike before. [tapping] Mike is – Mike's very intelligent. [tapping] He's also a fairly good supervisor to work for in that he trusts you and lets you do what you need to do. [tapping] But he'll also, if you come up to him and tell'm you needed help with something, he'll back you. [tapping] So it, it, it helps with those things. Um, he helped – 'cause I had to deal with everything over at the chassis side. If we shipped somethin' over, [background movement] I had to go over and make sure that [tapping] whatever it was that they were hollerin' and screamin' about, I could either fix or give'm an [bump] answer for. And, like I said, it was interesting doing the front end sheet metals. [papers rustling] [thumping] Doreen Howard: I, I'd like you to back up a little bit. [sniffing] [10:57] Um, could you tell me what a toolmaker does? Describe what your daily routine consists of. Mark Kirkey: [laughter] Now, that's kinda hard. Uh, we do all the shimmy as far as the [background movement] metal positioning for the, [tapping] how the car goes together. [tapping] We do [papers rustling] [tapping] – it's kinda of a combination between the trades and who does what on certain things, but basically we rebuilt clamps [background movement], um, the mechanical mechanisms on the clamps. Uh, we build up things, uh, for carriers, for carrying, [tapping] transporting the parts from one spot to another. [tapping] Uh, we master that stuff. Uh, we also do, uh, it's a computer-guided [background movement], uh, measuring tool that we use to make sure that we're building the car properly. [tapping] So we go into a station, and we make sure that all the placement of the NC blocks, which are the net locations for metal is where it belongs. [tapping] Uh, we also do the measuring a the car in [off station in CNM room 12:11] to make sure that what we're building is coming out right. [tapping] Or if we have a problem, we can find it within the build. [tapping] [papers rustling] Have an all-around – I don't know what you would call it, [tapping] uh, kind of [sigh] partly machine repair. [tapping] But we don't have a machine repairer, so it's kind of a combination between millwrights and toolmakers now on who does what. Doug Rademacher: Mark, you were [sniffing] – started out in trim. [12:38] Now, when you got to the body shop and were able to work with the robotics and the, and the big presses and things, did that, uh – something you enjoy doing? [background movement] [tapping] Is that where you got your joy out of [background movement] makin' those things work and fall within its place? Mark Kirkey: Oh, yeah. [tapping] Uh, th-, that's, that's the fun part. It, it's not supposed to be fun havin' the line down, but that's the fun part. [laughter] [tapping] It's when things are broke down. Uh, they brought a unit in, in [papers rustling] '91, [tapping] and 85 percent of the group went, "No, I ain't workin' on that." [tapping] Or, "No, I don't know how to work on that." Or, "No, I'm not going near it." [laughter] [tapping] And there was a few of us – uh, at the time, there was basically – I think there was 4 of us that got involved in it, worked with an outside company that brought it in. It took us 6 months to get it runnin' properly, [tapping] but when we got it runnin', it'd run great, [papers rustling] [background movement] and it was everybody's nightmare. Because that's what held [Car Track 13:44] [background movement] 80 percent of the time – the [Utica 13:47] tool. [laughter] And in processes they've changed – they've brought in new [sniffing] tools since then. We've changed the Utica tools, I think, th-, total of 3 times. We've had 3 different systems in here. And bein' on Car Track that whole time, [tapping] I got to be the go-to guy for it. Mike Fleming: [14:12] [tapping] Talk about what a Utica tool does to the [vehicle 14:15]. Cheryl McQuaid: [14:15] And what's Car Track? Mark Kirkey: Well, Car Track is where all the sheet metal gets put together before it [tapping] goes to front end. Uh, put your [side 14:24] rings, your roofs, your quarters, your fenders – well, fenders don't get on [but 14:29] your motor compartment. [tapping] It builds everything except for your fenders and your swing metal, which is doors, hoods, and deck lids. It puts it all together. It's a combination of where the side rings are build up, [tapping] underbody's build up, and it puts it all together. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: So, knowing in the past, many years ago, [background movement] [tapping] men put those parts together and did those well. It's pretty amazing that... Mark Kirkey: Yeah, it was a different process. Yeah. Before '84 it was done with gates and this and that. Car Track was a tube system, tube drive system, that it started in one end, and when it came out the other end, it was all welded together, which I think at the time was somethin' like 3 or 400 welds from [papers rustling] one start of Car Track to the end of it. And the original Utica tool did 28 pierces in 1 shot. [background movement] It had 2 – [tapping] it had a front [bridge 15:30], rear bridge, and 2 side units. [tapping] 'Cause at that time we pierced for the doors, for the door hinges. So, and it was held up by airbags, [background movement] [tapping] balanced by airbags. [laughter] Female: Wow. Doug Rademacher: Very hard to control. Mark Kirkey: Yes. Female: [It was hard 15:47]. Mark Kirkey: Yes. It was, it was – well, it wasn't so much hard to control. [tapping] It was hard to get it back [background movement] once it crashed. And all it would take was a punched brake [tapping] or an electrician pushed the wrong button, uh, because the logic on it [background movement] wasn't real great. Um, they never did get that straightened out. Even the unit we have in here today isn't that great as far as the logic. I've had to write SOPs and, uh... Female: [16:17] What's an SOP? Mark Kirkey: Standard operating procedure [laughter]. Um, I've had to write the SOPs for going in and working on a tool. I've also had to write the SOPs for troubleshooting the tool [tapping] because I've tried, or actually, I did try. [tapping] I wasn't given the ov-, the time to do it as far as overtime 'cause I wanted to take 2 electricians, 2 toolmakers, and a pipefitter on weekends, on a Saturday, and train'm on how to run that tool. I got to do it 2 Saturdays, and they cut the funding as far as overtime for it. [background movement] Mike Fleming: [16:58] [tapping] How many toolmakers is there in the group? Mark Kirkey: Well, [sigh], tryin' to think. [tapping] Total, I think, there is 26 or 27. But right now general assembly's gonna be [background movement] 1 short, and body shop is gonna be about 4 short for their original numbers. Female: [Do you 17:24]... Mark Kirkey: So we've – and we've come down. When I first come into the group in '87, it was 62. Male: Wow. Female: Wow. [whistle] Female: [17:32] Do you, um, work in groups? [tapping] Or do you work by yourself when you... Mark Kirkey: We generally work by ourselves. [tapping] We had a specific area that we covered. [papers rustling] [tapping] Um, we've always been position. We had people in tool room, [background movement] people on the floor. Each area – [tapping] each person had their own area. [background movement] Uh, we had the [CNM 17:32] room and the [Zeiss 17:53] room. We had people over there. Um, and if we needed help, we always had the other [background movement] you'd get help from [scraping] because we always run 2 lines so you had, [background movement] had somebody that was doing the same thing but on another system. Doug Rademacher: [18:08] Would you share [inaudible 18:08] – [CNM 18:09] and the Zeiss – would you explain those two? Mark Kirkey: Those are the measuring devices which we check the car with. We take the CAD data, [tapping] [take 18:18] points on it, figure out where something needs to be checked, and we can verify whether or not it was checked [inaudible 18:24] according to the original design. [tapping] And it tells us if we have a problem as far as the sheet metal coming in or the way we're building it. Doreen Howard: [18:36] [tapping] So when you came in, in '84 [papers rustling] to the present, um, [tapping] what changes have you seen in the processes that the toolmakers did before versus, versus now? Mark Kirkey: Well, in '8 – '87, um, [tapping] we were workin' mostly with weld guns and presses and stuff. [tapping] Most of our job had to do with pulling weld guns out, changing pivot pens, bushings, stuff like that, to where today, uh, it got down to where we were running clamps, troubleshooting whether something was being built properly or something wasn't working right. We got to figure out how to use – how to get it to work right. [tapping] Uh, processes have changed, probably tenfold, as far as from where we started. It's like the difference between [papers rustling] drivin' a [tapping] car right now and the old stone age Fl-, [laughter] – Flintstone-type cars. [coughing] [tapping] And it's changed that much in processes. [squeaking] And it's gonna make another leap that's even greater. [background movement] Doreen Howard: [19:44] So technology has contributed a lot to that... Mark Kirkey: Technology is... Doreen Howard: [arena 19:47]? Mark Kirkey: ...being awesome [laughter]. Mike Fleming: One reason why you went from 62 to, [tapping] uh, 29 maybe? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: No [laughter]. That was a management decision. Mike Fleming: So you feel there is a need for more toolmakers. Mark Kirkey: Yeah. It was a management decision. [tapping] They've [background movement] – and this isn't to bang on any specific group, [tapping] but we've had managers and supervision that think that the floor needs to be run by electricians. [tapping] Female: [Oh, okay 20:22]. Mark Kirkey: [tapping] And your toolmaker groups, your pipefitter group, and your millwright groups have all gotten cut right down to bare minimums or less. And they do the brunt of the work. But we seem to have a lot of gray areas that doesn't seem to be addressed properly... Female: [Inaudible 20:42]. Mark Kirkey: ...as far as who's supposed to do what. And we have some things that I don't agree with. They made [Weimers 20:52], electricians, and all the Weimer did was rebuild the weld gun. That's not electrical [laughter]. That's a machine repair group or a toolmaker group. It's a mechanical group, not electrical. [background movement] Mike Fleming: [21:08] [tapping] Talk to me about your early years and, uh, when you came in, and anyone that came in to your group. [thud] [tapping] Were there any initiations [paper rustling] or pranks [sniffing] that you all did to a new member within the group [when they first started 21:20]? Mark Kirkey: No. No. This isn't, this isn't like a college deal. [tapping] We didn't do any initiations. You had different things, you know. You'd get workin' on weekends and stuff, and people pickin' on people, and you're gettin' to learn people, but there's no initiations. [sniffing] Cheryl McQuaid: [21:39] How about when you first hired in on the line? Didn't you – what was the difference from hiring in on the line and then going to the trade? [tapping] Did that help your relationship with the assembly line hourly worker more or... Mark Kirkey: Well, I don't know if it helped my relationship with'm. It gave me a better perspective as [background movement] far as they were concerned, [tapping] which means when they started talkin', I knew what they were talkin' about. [tapping] Also had more concern that I knew what they're doin' chasin' that chain, that it needs a be a little easier for'm, and if I can make it easier, that's a better way to do it. So... Doug Rademacher: [tapping] Well, you kinda said it when you first came in to the plant that you thought the, workin' the line was, was, uh, sounded like a vacation to you compared to your – the foundry or forge that you said you were workin' – forge? Mark Kirkey: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: So now – [tapping] but now you say you respect the fact that people chased the chain. Mark Kirkey: Right. Doug Rademacher: [22:33] [tapping] Can you elaborate a little more on that? Mark Kirkey: My problem is, I can't stand anything that's brain-dead. And if you ask me, the way they want to run [background movement] production is brain-dead. They don't allow the operators to do what they wanna do or how they wanna do it. All they're concerned about [tapping] is doin' it as a robot. And chasin' the chain is brain numbing [laughter]. Yeah. It was, it was a vacation compared to what I did, but it drove me frickin' nuts [laughter]. [tapping] That's one reason why I stayed on intermittent relief, and when I went from that and got reduced out, I went to utility. I got to do a different job every night [laughter]. [tapping] And I could usually learn a job in about a half an hour, at most. And I've gone – I've – when I worked out of hard trim, I worked up in paint, I worked out here in the body shop in the old weld [booth 23:31]. I'd never [made 23:32] welded before, [papers rustling] [tapping] and I went out and made welded roof seams one night [laughter]. So I enjoyed it. Doug Rademacher: [23:40] So you liked variety? Mark Kirkey: Yep. Doug Rademacher: [23:42] And this plant offered you that? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Yeah. [tapping] Yeah, as far as the utility was concerned. And when I was as – on the toolmaker group, oh, uh, probably about 4 years into it, I ended up bein' the utility, 'cause they needed somebody to cover here, somebody to cover there for vacations or absenteeism or sick leaves. I got to cover it. So I didn't get to do the same job all the time that way either. So I got well rounded on the floor as well. Doug Rademacher: Well, you said doing 1 job drove you crazy or chasin' the chain. [24:15] Did you feel that was – there was a, there was a group of people that would think that, uh, you were stuck to that line. But you said you had opportunity. Can you – is there a lot of opportunity in, in an assembly plant with General Motors? Mark Kirkey: There is if you wanna do it. There's people out there that don't mind doin' that. They want the same job every day. [tapping] They wanna do the same thing. They don't wanna rotate like they're askin' them to rotate. There're also people that are like me. They don't wanna stay on the same position every day. They wanna move around. [background movement] And I don't know how you compensate for both, but, [tapping] for me, I need to move around. I can't do the – you know, doin' it 2 or 3 days in a row or somethin' like that. But we're talkin' months, weeks, years on end doin' the same job every day. I can't do that. I get brain numb. I get bored. I don't wanna come to work [laughter]. [tapping] And all I think about is getting out of work when I'm doin' that. Mike Fleming: [25:14] [tapping] Um, talk about what it is you doin' currently, and are you – is, is, um, you-, what capacity do you [inaudible 25:26]? What, what is your job? What do you, what are you doing now? Mark Kirkey: My job right now is parts acquisition [laughter]. If there's somethin' in the plant that the new plant needs, I find it. Female: Hm. Mark Kirkey: [tapping] Um, I like to think I got a nice little acquisition crew, that we all work together. I have – right now I have 2 toolmakers and electrician that I work with. [background movement] [tapping] We're the only ones left in the plant from the body shop as far as workin' on the floor. They call me. They ask me for specific items. I either go order it or I go out in the shop and find it or one of the electricians – or the electrician and the millwrights do it. [tapping] Uh, my job is to make sure that the life over in LDT for those guys is as easy as I can make it. Mike Fleming: [26:17] LDT – what's LDT? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: That's the new plant. Lansing [sniffing] Delta Township. Female: [26:24] [tapping] Can you give me, um, your feelings on the closing of the plant, and, and lookin' around and seeing everything gone and the people gone? Mark Kirkey: I'm gonna miss it. [tapping] It's a shoehorn process in here, but that's what made it kind of interesting, figuring out how to get somethin' to work within [inaudible] [streets 26:45] that we had. I'm gonna miss some of the set-ups that we had as far as people and organization, workin' with production people. It's – there's enjoyable times. There was bad times. It's like anything else. [tapping] Um, I enjoy workin' with the people. I always got along with the production groups. Um, I guess that's why I enjoyed bein' on per diem the way I was. I got to work with the production group. I got to work with my toolmakers, and I actually think I [background movement] – at least I hope I did, at least the way they acted – I gained some respect outta the toolmakers. That I got a bunch a junk when I first [tapping] got on there 'cause they gave me a bunch a crap for goin' on it, but after a while, the guys wanted to work for me. Partly 'cause I knew what they were doin'. I knew what they had to go through, and I also let'm do their job. I didn't tell'm how to do it. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: [27:48] So was it, uh, somethin' you enjoy doin' as a per diem? Did you want to stay on? Or did [background movement] management decide they didn't have an opening for you? Mark Kirkey: No. [tapping] I had to get laid off. Doug Rademacher: So you were in a layoff. [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Yeah. Which I wasn't supposed to be [laughter]. Doug Rademacher: [28:02] You wanna talk about that? Mark Kirkey: We won't go into that. Doug Rademacher: [28:03] You don't want to do that? Mark Kirkey: We don't wanna go into that. No. Uh... Doug Rademacher: You're [sayin' it 28:06] unjust, though. Mark Kirkey: No. It wasn't that. It was outta line. And General Motors paid for it. [papers rustling] Cheryl McQuaid: [28:19] Do you have a special memory, um, workin' here that you can share with us? Somethin' just unforgettable about this place. [background movement] Mark Kirkey: Oh, boy [laughter]. Doug Rademacher: Well, you can give a couple. Cheryl McQuaid: Yeah [laughter]. Mark Kirkey: Well, I give one that isn't, uh, I guess you can get away with it now. [tapping] You can say it now 'cause they, uh, most of them guys aren't around. [papers rustling] Uh, come in here one Saturday. [tapping] They had a bunch a work to get done. And most of us got all our work done within the first hour or so. Poor planning. They figured an 8-hour job for an hour and a half. So we had a bunch of us in here, and I think at the time there was – geez [papers rustling] – I think there was 12 or 14 of us on second shift. [tapping] And it was a hot summer day. It was, ah, [laughter] [tapping] a little too hot, and before we knew it, we had guys runnin' around with trucks and [laughter] fire extinguishers... [tapping] Female: Oh. Mark Kirkey: ...[hid 29:29] underneath things. And when they'd go by somebody, they'd get squirted. And pretty soon you'd have people up in the steel squirtin' at ya when you went drivin' by and – [laughter]. So it was [laughter] – it got to be a regular fire extinguisher war that night. [tapping] [laughter] Nobody got hurt. Nobody, you know, got into any trouble. All we did was [background movement] get wet. Doug Rademacher: The work was done, and the, and the plant became a playground, almost. [tapping] An enclosed playground. Mark Kirkey: Yep. Female: They did a little cleaning. Mark Kirkey: We cleaned. Yes. [laughter] Yeah. We kinda washed things down a little bit [background movement], includin' ourselves. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: Did your group, uh – [tapping] on those occasions, did you guys have dinners or something that you did, uh, on a regular basis? [tapping] Or only for holidays? Mark Kirkey: Dinners and stuff were usually done in areas. [tapping] Um, usually what happened was, because you worked in a specific area, there might be [papers rustling] 10, there might be 30 production people that work in that area. But you also had, um, electricians. [papers rustling] You had a pipefitter that covered your area. Um, you had millwrights that worked outta that area or came into that area. [tapping] And they'd have somethin' come up, like a holiday would be comin' up or somethin' like that. And everybody would just kinda get together for that area, and they'd have their own little meal. And you'd have a bunch of'm goin' on through the whole plant, 'cause each area did their own little thing. Um, as far as the group – no. [tapping] The toolmakers kinda – if you worked in an area, you went with'm. And if you didn't have an area, you got pulled in by somebody. [laughter] So you didn't get missed out anyway. [papers rustling] Mike Fleming: [31:19] You mentioned that you came here strictly for monetary, um, reasons. [tapping] Um, talk about the most you made within a year and your [inaudible 31:31]. [coughing] What were they like? [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Well, let's see. First when I – when I first came here, I got to take the time off durin' the summer, which was nice [laughter]. 'Cause I was on production, I got to take the shuttin' down time. [tapping] And the last year that I was on production, we were on a 6-week shutdown, and I built an addition on my house. [tapping] Had it all done before I come back to work. That was the last time I got a chance to do that [laughter]. 'Cause I went on skilled trades after that, I didn't get time off. Doug Rademacher: [32:06] [When 32:06] you called it a shutdown, now that would be a model changeover? Mark Kirkey: Yeah. [Inaudible 32:10] normal sh-, summer shutdown. It's a model change. Um, and went anywhere from 6 to 12 weeks [thumping]. I've seen it go longer. I've seen it go shorter. [background movement] Doug Rademacher: [32:20] And how's that done now? Mark Kirkey: Now it's done on a fly. Uh, you get the 2 weeks [tapping] durin' down, and that's it. [tapping] That General Motors has their normal shutdown, and you do it on the fly. Some of it, uh, [papers rustling] they shut certain spots down and start makin' the changes before the [papers rustling] line even shuts down. [papers rustling] Or they move it off to another area and make the change. The new systems, you won't have to do that. It's just a programming changing software. Female: Hm. [tapping] Mark Kirkey: So there isn't even gonna be any mechanical changes for the most part. At least not for quite a while. Mike Fleming: [33:02] [papers rustling] So, again, um, what was the most that you made within a year? And, and I'm sure some of it, when you get in trades and model changeovers attributed to some of that. Mark Kirkey: Uh, I made $106,000. [tapping] Mike Fleming: [33:19] So... Female: [Inaudible 33:19]. Mike Fleming: ...was it worth comin' to General Motors to [background movement] come to work [inaudible 33:23]? Mark Kirkey: Oh, yeah. Like I said, it, uh, it was a monetary reason. I took a cut in pay when I first come, but I knew it was gonna change. [background movement] But yeah. [papers rustling] I mean, and that was – that $104,000 was quite a long time ago too. That was about [background movement] 8 years ago. Female: That's serious cash. Mark Kirkey: Yeah. When you're talkin' I had over 3,000 hours that year. Doreen Howard: [33:49] Now, what shift did you say that you worked on? Mark Kirkey: Second shift for the most part. [tapping] Female: [33:54] And you worked primarily 7 days? Mark Kirkey: Uh, we worked 8 years for 7 days. [tapping] Female: [Oh 33:58]. Doreen Howard: [34:01] Give me your thoughts [tapping] on, um, [background movement] the new plant. [tapping] Um, you said that you were going to be moving up there. Just give me your thoughts and expectations for the new plant. [tapping] Mark Kirkey: Actually, it's almost like the Main Street School issue [laughter]. I'm getting all this GMS training [throat clearing], and we're gonna get out there, and I know it's gonna fall down. [tapping] But it's not gonna fall down because of the people. It's gonna fall down because a management. [tapping] Main Street School [issue 34:33], and every time they've tried to [tapping] redo this empowerment to the people on the floor. Every time it's fallen down, it's because management hasn't totally bought into it. Either the floor management hasn't done it or they're upper management didn't back'm on it. And they get into this mentality we've gotta have production. Forget about quality. [throat clearing] [tapping] And then they start screamin' because the quality is bad. Well, let us shut it down and fix it right, and we won't build junk. But we'll see. I told'm I'd have an open mind until they changed it. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: I'm with ya on that. [35:11] Would you share again about – [tapping] you said it was hard on your family when you made the move... [tapping] Mark Kirkey: No. It wasn't hard on'm. I was worried about makin' the move. Because I was goin' from havin' full insurance and everything else, and I had, at that time, 3 young kids at home. And I was worried about it because I wasn't gonna have any insurance for the first 6 months [laughter]. Doug Rademacher: [35:37] You mean the 90 day? Or was it 6 months? Mark Kirkey: No, 6 months. You don't get – you didn't get insurance or anything for the first 6 months. Then you got a little bit every 6 months 'til you got your 18 months in, and then you got your full coverage. And because I hired in, in production, I started out at 85 percent instead of full rate. If I'd a come in to the skilled trades group, I'd a started out at full, full rate. [background movement] But because there was a hassle in tryin' to get in here, I actually hired in through the unemployment office. I stood out in line [tapping] [coughing] with the other 2500 people that were [laughter] tryin' to get a job that day, [tapping] and I happened to be about number 250 in line. [laughter] Mike Fleming: Wow. Doreen Howard: [36:22] [tapping] Well, in, um, wrapping up here, is there any final thoughts that, that you would like to share with us that we haven't touched on? Anything that you th-, that you want to talk about? And, um, give us your final thoughts of – an overview of the plant and, and your feelings of [inaudible 36:44]. Mark Kirkey: Oh, it's a good place. It's been a good place to work. [tapping] I've had a lot of good times here. I've enjoyed my work. I've had some bad times. I don't mind it, but I'll miss it. I think this is somethin' that shouldn't of been closed up. They coulda kept it goin', [tapping] but I – still not understanding the accountants way of doing things. How you can take and say this was the most inefficient system in the corporation when we built more cars than anybody else and more efficiently is – just doesn't make sense to me. But the accountants are runnin' it, so I guess we don't have a choice [laughter]. Cheryl McQuaid: Mark, thank you so much. Well, I think all of us could... Female: Hm. Cheryl McQuaid: ...sit here and listen and talk to you for another hour. Mark Kirkey: [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: I appreciate the opportunity. Doug Rademacher: And we know you were committed to someone at 8:00. Mark Kirkey: Oh that's – like I, like I said, it's kind of a variance, but this is one of the issues that I gotta do right now, and he needs somethin' over at the plant, and he's gotta come up with it. [tapping] Doug Rademacher: Well, I look forward to workin' with ya out at the new facility. Female: Thank you. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you. Female: Thank you. /em