Sam McGhee, an African American, discusses his career as UAW production worker and plant security officer at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Cheryl McQuaid: [clicking] This is Cheryl McQuaid. I’m with the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. We’re at the UAW 602 Local Hall in the conference room. Today is December 12th, 2005. It’s approximately 12 noon. We’re preparing to interview Sam McGhee. First, let’s, uh, s-, state the names of everybody else that’s present in the room. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. John Fedewa: [throat clearing] John Fedewa. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:31] Sam, could you state your name and spell your last name please? Sam McGhee: [tsk] My name is Sam McGhee. Last name spelling M-C capital G-H-E-E. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:41] And what is your address? Sam McGhee: [tsk] 4000 Churchill Avenue, Lansing, Michigan, 48911. Cheryl McQuaid: [0:47] And are you married? Do you have children? Sam McGhee: Presently married my first wife [who 0:53] I have 2 children, a boy and a girl. Now I have a second wife who has a daughter, 3 grandchildren, and my first wife, we have 6 grandchildren. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:06] And could you give us a little bit on your educational background? Sam McGhee: Graduated from high school. From high school, I think the rest a my educa-, well, I spent 2 years, uh, junior college in Florida. Johnson Junior College. Then I went into the military and basically everything else in education was through the military. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:26] And where did you go to high school? Sam McGhee: Uh, first it was in, uh, [Inaudible 1:30], Arkansas. I spent 11½ years there. I finished up my 12th grade year in Leesburg, Florida. And that was it. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:44] Um, could you tell us what your seniority date is at Fisher Body and if you remember the first day you walked into the plant. [coughing] Sam McGhee: My seniority date at General Motors was 19th a May, 1971. The day I walked into that plant, I thought it was a total disaster. I could not believe what I’d walked into and once I entertained my first job there, I knew I was into something that I really wasn’t gonna stay in too long. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:22] And why did you walk into that plant? Sam McGhee: Better job. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:27] Better than – where did you used to work? Sam McGhee: Prior to that, I worked at [John Bean 2:31] at a machin-, I was a machinist. And the reason that I left there is because they folded and moved outta town to Arkansas, so I felt now is my chance to get in General Motors, so I better go for it now and I did. And that’s why I ended up there. Cheryl McQuaid: [2:47] How long did it take you to get into General Motors? Was it a long wait or were you hired immediately? Sam McGhee: Three days. Cheryl McQuaid: Three days. [2:58] And what department and what shift did you hire into? Sam McGhee: I hired into the Body Shop on the afternoon shift. Cheryl McQuaid: [3:08] And how old were you? Sam McGhee: At that time, I was, oh, 26. Twenty-six years old. Cheryl McQuaid: [3:17] And what job did they put you in? Sam McGhee: [laughter] Wheel housing. [laughter] Worse job they had down there. [throat clearing] And I know it was the worst job they had down there because that’s what they told me. It was the worst job [coughing] that they had down there. Nobody wanted that job but I hate to say it, I mastered that job. Cheryl McQuaid: [3:36] And what did that job consist of, Sam? Sam McGhee: Uh. Welding the fender onto the body and also weldin’ the back of – then, th-, when they was building the station wagons, we had to weld the back [throat clearing] of the station wagons and the gun that you used to weld the back a the station wagon was almost bigger than me. Cheryl McQuaid: Wow. Sam McGhee: It was very heavy. It was held up by hydraulics but more so by cable spring where you can handle it but once you got started with it, it, it pretty much handled you and you just hung on to it ‘cause quite a few times, I was drug down the line behind station wagons. Cheryl McQuaid: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: Sometimes you just had to reach over and shut off the emergency button because you couldn’t finish the job before it got outta the pit area. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:33] So did you work in a pit? Sam McGhee: Yes. It was down in a pit up under the cars. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:39] What size would you say this pit was that you worked in? Sam McGhee: I would say maybe 10 foot long, maybe 6 to 8 foot wide. Cheryl McQuaid: So you had 10 feet to complete this task. Sam McGhee: Right. Cheryl McQuaid: [4:59] And how long did you do this job? Sam McGhee: Seven months. Cheryl McQuaid: [5:04] And did you go on to another job in the Body [inaudible 5:06]? Sam McGhee: Well, I – a-, after the end a the 7 months, I went to my general supervisor and I told him, I said I can’t do this any longer. I got to find something else that I can do. And that was durin’ the Christmas [throat clearing] break and I don’t know whether – to this day whether he had anything to do with it or whether Security personnel were lookin’ for people and my name came up ‘cause when I came back [after 5:36] Christmas break, I was called down to the front office to the security chief, who was then Dick [Rosen 5:43], and he called me in and talked to me, gave me an interview. And he just basically asked me how would you like to work security? And I said yes. He said okay. Monday mornin’ report to Security. And nobody in the plant could believe it. ‘Cause everybody then wanted to get on Security. That was the job that everybody wanted. They wanna get on Security and – but my – I never went and talked to’m and I think then it was a thing of they went into records and files and they looked for certain people [coughing] and because I had a strong military background, my name came to the top a the list. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [6:31] So at that time, then you went from bein’ an hourly employee in the pit to being a s-, uh, then what was considered s-, a salaried person on Security. Sam McGhee: Well, we really – I went from bein’ a hourly person in the Body Shop to an – at that time, Security was hourly. We weren’t salaried then. We were still hourly. But basically, we worked more under [coughing] salary. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. [6:59] So, um, was there any type of training process that you had to do once [you] [inaudible 7:04]? Sam McGhee: I spent 2 weeks – you did 2 weeks of training. And basically, your training consist of – they would put you with one a the older, experienced Security people and you would go with them all day and work the gates, work the plant, be with them. They would show you how to do the job, how to work the gates, different gates. You’d go from gate to gate with this guy until you complete your 2 weeks. And each day, you would get a different person. Marilyn Coulter: Sam, you said work the floor and work the gate. [7:36] Could you please, um, define what that meant to work the gate or to work the plant please? Sam McGhee: Okay, workin’, workin’ the gates was like – uh, for instance, if you work a body hauling gate where y-, all ya had to do was pull tickets off the body haulin’ trucks takin’ bodies from Fisher to Oldsmobile plant. Or pedestrian gates where people would come in and out and you would check’m in or out. Workin’ the plant was – basically all you did is patrol the plant. Look for fire hazards, look for things out of ordinary, and basically just a presence of being in the plant. Marilyn Coulter: [8:17] How many Security would you say were on staff back then? Sam McGhee: At that time, I think there was about 31 or 32 people. Marilyn Coulter: [8:27] Out of those 31 or 32 people, how many of those were minorities or women? Sam McGhee: At the time I hired in [throat clearing] I can say it was 5. There were 5. Marilyn Coulter: [8:47] Once you made the transition from working on the floor to, uh, bein’ a Security personnel checking people in, how did your past fellow coworkers treat you or was there any difference at all? Sam McGhee: Hm, no. Because a my short time that I had worked in the Body Shop [throat clearing] for only 7 months, nobody really knew me as per se – because I hadn’t been here long enough for everybody to really know me. So it was just like hey, who is this guy that just showed up? He – did they hire’m off the streets or what? Because that question was asked. Because other than the people who worked around me in the Body Show, they were the ones that knew me. Now, the ones who worked with me in the Body Shop, they were in total disbelief because every time they saw me at the gate, they’d say how did you get that job? [laughter] And I says hey, my name came up on the list, guys. Marilyn Coulter: [9:44] Now, was there a financial difference between what you were makin’ on the line versus what you made as a Security personnel? Sam McGhee: Hm, yes, quite a [big 9:52] difference. Marilyn Coulter: [9:55] Was it… Sam McGhee: Considerable… Marilyn Coulter: …considerably… Sam McGhee: …difference. Marilyn Coulter: …more or considerably… Sam McGhee: More. Marilyn Coulter: …less? [Considerably 9:59]… Sam McGhee: More. More on Security. More on Security. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 10:05]. Better job and pay. [laughter] Sam McGhee: Better job and pay. Cheryl McQuaid: [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid. [10:13] Sam, did you have any, uh, family that worked in the plant? Sam McGhee: Prior to me comin’ to Fisher Body, I had 3 cousins who worked in Fisher Body. But other than that, I never had no real close relatives. I had cousins who worked here but that’s about it. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Sam. [throat clearing] [10:38] When you talk about some a the changes that had happened when you went on Security in ’71… Sam McGhee: [Seventy-one 10:44]. Michael Fleming: …until now as far as safety [and the 10:49] issues that you had to deal with because I-, I’m assuming that you had to, uh, write, um, permits to have certain things welded, you had to, uh, make sure that areas were secure. I don’t know if you went through lock boxes or whatever the case is but, uh, certain stuff that had to be done safety-wise within the plant. Talk about some a those changes if you would. Sam McGhee: Okay, back when – uh, when I first come on Security, uh, back then, as a Security person, you did not write [burning 11:22] permits. That was taken care of by the fire inspector. Then, there was a fire inspector and the fire inspector handled all fire procedures, everything. He writ reports, checked jobs before [inaudible 11:37] for safety. We, as Security, didn’t have anything to do with that then. Michael Fleming: [11:44] It evolved into that later? Sam McGhee: Eventually as, as, as it went along, I think they picked up that thing from Oldsmobile because the Security people at Oldsmobile did write permits but they didn’t in Fisher Body building. Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: But we did eventually adopt that thing and they did start to let us write permits and that’s when – then when we g-, [throat clearing] it really got off into the safety aspects of doin’ burning permits, doin’ standby jobs for, um – [inaudible 12:14] what they call emergency cut-and-weld jobs or stuff like that. Michael Fleming: When you, um, [tsk] went into a department – let’s say you got a call for a discharge, employee being discharged. [12:28] Talk about some a those situations [throat clearing] that you were in, handling those individuals. Sam McGhee: Oh, boy. I – uh, yes, quite a few times. [throat clearing] And, and I don’t – I think it was – a lotta times it was I was picked to do that because I, I spent a lotta my time on midnight shift and at that time, the dispatcher would always seemingly find me no matter where I was. Whether I be at the gate, [laughter] he would send somebody [laughter] out to relieve me. If I was in the plant, [throat clearing] I definitely was dispatched to that area. And if there’s a fight, [throat clearing] I mean, th-, they sent me. And a lot-, lot of it had to do with size. My size and appearance showin’ up. And back then, Security was recognized as Security. When they show up, whatever you’re doin’, you better stop. Because back then, you could lose your job for – anything Security wrote you up for, you could lose your job. And even the people in the plant were – I don’t wanna use being afraid but yes, I have to say they were afraid of Security. Because they knew that hey, even though it was just a job you had to do but they were afraid if they get wrote up by Security for maybe smokin’ in a no smokin’ area, sneakin’ outta the plant and gettin’ caught, drinking, stuff like that, they would get time off. And possibly could relate to being fired. Marilyn Coulter: Uh. Marilyn Coulter. [14:11] Sa-, Sam, can you tell us how tall you are please? Sam McGhee: Six foot two. Marilyn Coulter: You’re 6 foot 2 and… Sam McGhee: And back then, I was weighin’ about 235, 240, which I pretty much [maintain] [inaudible 14:20]. Marilyn Coulter: [14:21] Because you were a body builder, [correct] [inaudible 14:23]? Sam McGhee: I, I did work out. Yes. Marilyn Coulter: So just so I can get an idea of how big [you were 14:28]. Michael Fleming: L-, let’s go back to, uh, the discharges and… Jerri Smith: Mike. Michael Fleming: …the, the impor-, Michael Fleming. And the [throat clearing] importance of, um, uh, being able to listen to Security because they had authority back then. You can… Sam McGhee: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: …write’m up. Uh. [14:43] Were there any abuses by Security officers that you know of, uh, b-, because of that? Because certainly that is power. And I, I’m certain that there may have been some instances. Sam McGhee: Other than just dislike because we were Security. I think that was the only thing. Everybody disliked Security because they were Security. And they knew – say hey, wait a minute, these guys can write me up. I can lose my job, so therefore, I just don’t [throat clearing] like Security. Personally, I never had a problem with anybody’s, per se, disliking me. They probably disliked the job that I did but I, I guess I tried myself – within myself, I tried to carry that rapport between myself and the hourly people who worked on the line because those are the people that I had to basically – I was put here to watch them… Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 15:38]. Sam McGhee: …so I tried my best to get along with those people and do my job at the same time. Michael Fleming: [15:42] More so than that, what I meant was there any Security guards that abused their power because they could do these things? Sam McGhee: I would say some did. There were some that used their power and they w‑, I, I felt they would go overboard sometime in some a the things that they do and like [as far as 16:04] consideration for something that a guy did or, or if he’s fightin’, I mean, they would hey, write it up, throw the book at the guy and says hey, shouldn’t a been doin’ it. But we had some that were pretty power struck. Michael Fleming: Now, you said Arkansas. Um. [16:24] When you lived in Arkansas or just whenever you went back, talk about, uh, the channel cats in Ark-, Arkansas. [laughter] I’ve heard a lot about that. Sam McGhee: Oh, that, that is a true statement because I [throat clearing] remember back when – a-, and y-, bein’, bein’ a young teenager back then, I, I was a fisherman. I loved to go fishin’ and my parents at the time used to do what they – they used to go what they call mudding and that’ll be when the water would get low in the summer, it would dry up and it would go to a lowest point around the river or lakes and that’s where all the fish would congregate at and they couldn’t get outta there. So all you’d have to do is just go walkin’ in there and get’m and as you walk in there, the water would get real muddy. So then you just basically go on a blind search and hunt. You just stick your hand down in the mud and whenever you feel one, you just come up with a fish. Marilyn Coulter: [17:26] So did any a those cats ever make it bet-, back to Fisher Body? Sam McGhee: None. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: You never brought them back to the people at Fisher Body. Sam McGhee: No. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: Oh, my goodness. Sam McGhee: No. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Speaking of that, Sam – Cheryl [throat clearing] McQuaid. [17:38] Were you – did you ever, um, participate in any a the dinners at Fisher Body? Sam McGhee: Frequently. I was always invited to dinners in Fisher Body. No matter – even as a Security person, definitely. [coughing] I was a-, and, and basically back then, all of us were. All of Security. But more so Security had a more special relationship with Maintenance Department because back then, we probably – especially on midnight shift, we spent more time in the plant with the Maintenance people than we did anybody because once the line went down, that left Security and Maintenance in the building and we developed a rapport with the Maintenance Department pretty much stronger than anybody in the plant. Marilyn Coulter: S-, Marilyn Coulter. [18:27] Sam, being, um, [tsk] [sighing] a Security person who has gone through many of the changes, um, with the different companies, did you find that the relationship between those people changed as the companies’ Securities changed at all and more people started coming in? Sam McGhee: Hm. Per se, the relationship with me didn’t change because I started here and I probably had been here [longer 19:03] than a lotta the people who were, at that time, still workin’ on the line. I was already [established 19:09]. With the new people who came in with the security force, there was a lot of dislike, there was a lotta doubt of, say, job responsibility or just basically did not know, so therefore, I don’t trust you. You’re not nothing like the old guy. You’re not nothing like the other Security people. And we got that a lot. Marilyn Coulter: [19:36] Did you feel that the respect level was different for Securitas and Pinkertons versus the old General Motors s-, plant security? Sam McGhee: Definitely. Definitely. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. I just wanna say that I was one a those people and I didn’t like them coming in and doing our guys’ work. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: I – so I [would like 20:03] – yes, definitely. There was… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: …lack a respect and… Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Cheryl McQuaid: …they were taking our jobs. [throat clearing] Marilyn Coulter: I think too it seemed like – it’s like you said. There was a difference between you and [Tater 20:17] and [KB 20:18] or other… Sam McGhee: Mm-hm. Marilyn Coulter: …coworkers and the little kids that they brought in that were smaller… Sam McGhee: [True 20:23]. Marilyn Coulter: …because you guys did hold a presence. [throat clearing] I agree with that. [20:27] Now, with that presence, and you were big, were there any kind of – when you came in on the line or when you went into Security, were there any kind of new-hire initiations or pranks or anything that got played to pass the time along? Sam McGhee: Hm. No. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Sam McGhee: O-, other than – uh, within the department, there were. Within the Security department. Like a new person on Security, there were things done to you but it was within the Security ranks. Marilyn Coulter: [20:55] What types of things were done? Sam McGhee: [laughter] Because th-, that, that was a thing that – I guess they – I, I was a sorta jumpy fellow… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: …and they used to pull pranks on me. Like guys used to beat me in the locker room to change clothes at night and somebody would take all my clothes outta my locker and get in my locker. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Ah. Sam McGhee: And when I opened the door, they would come outta my locker. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Hm. Sam McGhee: They would put bells and attach’m to the electricity and take the bell and slide it up under the locker to where my locker is and soon as I opened that door, they would cut the lights out and plug in that bell. [laughter] Those type things but n-, nothing physical but just things that – [laughter] walkin’ through the plant at night, they used to – guys used to catch you in one part a the plant and they’d be another part a the plant what you thought. They’d run over to your area and hide and make weird sounds as you walked down in the dark hallways and stuff like that. [laughter] Sure, there were pranks played. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. [Inaudible 22:01]. Michael Fleming: Mike, Mike Fleming, Sam. Um. [22:04] W-, when you talk about, um, your job and how difficult it could’ve gotten, sh-, talk about when, when the strikes happened within the facility, what, what responsibility you had and what did you have to do for that? Sam McGhee: The main thing we had to do whenever a strike or somethin’ like that happens, safety, fire protection, patrols [heightened 22:31] outside, inside. We were more aware of what was going on with the strikers as to – at – durin’ daytime, durin’ nighttime. What they activity was at all times. And because a the fact that there weren’t anyone in the plant, we had regular patrols more so than normal. Michael Fleming: [23:00] So – and is there a difference in a strike and a lockout? Sam McGhee: [tsk] Uh, basically we do the same thing for both. Basically, we do the same thing. But if it’s a lockout, then all we do is just close up the doors and probably we had 1 entrance and 1 exit. Michael Fleming: [23:17] Have you ever been through a lockout? Sam McGhee: Yes. Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 23:20]. Sam McGhee: One. Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 23:21] talk about the lockout [inaudible 23:22]. Sam McGhee: But, but I, uh, l-, lockouts are – [throat clearing] uh, and i-, and i-, I think [throat clearing] it, it, it lasts probably – they, they call it a lockout and I think it only lasted about 2 or 3 days. And there were nothing we did differently than what we would normally do for a strike other than the fact with a lockout, you secure gates. But with a strike, you leave the gates open but you man those gates to make sure nobody enter in. But that was about the only difference. Michael Fleming: Okay. [24:02] So, um, y-, you, uh, stayed in Security until you retired, right? Sam McGhee: Right. Michael Fleming: There was, there was, uh, plenty of name changes in Security and through the facility. Um. And I’m sure with that came policy change for you all and certainly possibly economic changes for you. [24:31] Talk about some a the changes that you went through from ’71 till you retired and, and, uh, the differences [inaudible 24:38] if ya can. Sam McGhee: Hm. Michael Fleming: A lot of’m [wasn’t 24:42]. Sam McGhee: Q-, quite a few changes. Michael Fleming: Yeah. Sam McGhee: Quite a few changes. F-, uh, starting with maybe plant-wide, uh, changes in structure in the plant itself as far as upgrading from the old plant to new system to the robotic systems and stuff like that. And each time that would change, our job would change and it be-, began to elevate to another level. And it would always entail us doing something else or doing something different or getting something else added to our job at Security as the plant changes or – you know, they would, they would – every time they did something different, we did something different along with our normal operations. Marilyn Coulter: How did th-… Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [25:34] How did the, how did the changes happen [throat clearing] for you in terms of your realm of Security going from General Motors [coughing] to Pinkerton to Securitas? How did that change for you? Sam McGhee: For me, it changed in the fact – I think I b-, I, I went from being just a Security person to being – my title changed, number 1. I became a sergeant in Security but not at a supervisory status. I became sergeant because I was the dispatch operator and that time, they elevated the job to – as a sergeant, so. But my status changed because a the fact that I think I was the only Security person here when they made the switch to Pinkerton in ’93. I was the only regular, full-time Security person who stayed here. Everybody else either left, transitioned out somewhere else. Lot of’m just said no, I’m not gonna work for Pinkerton, so I’ll quit before I do that, so they left. But – so there were 3 of us stayed along with myself, [Leonard Jones 26:57] and Lyle McFadden. And later on, Lyle McFadden left and went to Plant 2. [Lennie 27:04] Jones took over as fire inspector and I was still left the only Security guy still left. So therefore, I became the – how do you wanna say? I think I became the information person for Pinkerton Security operatin’ in Fisher Body. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. Um. [Inaudible 27:30] you guys had, uh, cameras and s-, and, uh, a station where you could view the exterior of the building. As time went on, those cameras got more and more sophisticated, if I’m not mistaken. Uh. [27:44] What are some a the things [laughter] that you could see and have seen with those cameras? Sam McGhee: Cameras. Uh. Once we did start to get cameras and a-, as, as – basically what cameras does is cameras normally take the place of a person, which they started to use that as that because cameras then became our pr-, some of our parkin’ lot patrols instead a havin’ to l-, go out there and walk the parkin’ lot, all we had to do was take the cameras and – yes, the cameras were sophisticated. They were powerful and strong enough that we could see at night inside of a vehicle. They were that sophisticated. And we could – uh, if, if, if – you could almost identify people. You – and basically in my situation, I could just about look and see people walkin’ across the parkin’ lot and I could tell you who they were by the camera. But everybody couldn’t do that because nobody had the knowledge of the people in the plant as I did. Michael Fleming: [28:43] W-, was there ever any situation where the camera would compromise someone to be in a disciplinary action, uh, because of camera? Because of camera? Sam McGhee: A, a lotta times, there were things that, uh, we used the camera for. You, you see people go out with bags or somethin’ and you become suspicious and you watch them. A lotta times it would be shop trucks would exit the plant and sometimes people would take stuff outta the plant on a shop truck, take it to they truck, and put it in they truck. And you become very suspicious when you see this, so you take the camera and follow’m and when they go back up to the gate, you just call out to the gate house, have the security guards stop’m, hold’m there, and the sergeant will go out and says okay, take me back to your truck ‘cause I wanna see what you put in your truck. So there were instances that yes, the cameras were used to – and a lotta times, it was a situation where people outside General Motors system that would come into the lot to vandalize peoples’ cars and stuff and we’ve caught people that way with the cameras. Michael Fleming: Uh, while we’re on that – um, I’m gonna skip from that and go way off the track. [30:03] You – [sighing] um, next door to, uh, Fisher Body is Sexton High School. And it has been said that quite a few members will go on the roof and watch the football games on Friday nights. Um. Explain some a that. I’m sure [inaudible 30:20]. Sam McGhee: Oh, that, that, that did happen. And mostly it was the Maintenance people. People who did not have on-line jobs. Yes, it was the Maintenance people and Security people ‘cause we always had that option. [laughter] Yeah, hey, you go up on the roof and basically our job was to go up there and get those guys off the roof. So therefore, you know, we knew they was up there and we knew what they were doin’ but hey, our thing was okay, guys, you know you’re not supposed to be up here on the roof. Now, I’m gonna tell ya get off the roof and I’m gone. Michael Fleming: [30:57] Was it – did it ever get so good to where they would even bring food or popcorn or whatever? Sam McGhee: [laughter] Sure! [laughter] They, they – th-, the guys – hey, they was goin’ up there to watch a football game and they had pop, they had, you know… Marilyn Coulter: Everything. Sam McGhee: …sandwiches, whatever it took. But yes, it happened. Marilyn Coulter: What… Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [31:20] What would you say would be your best memory of working in the plant here? Sam McGhee: My… Marilyn Coulter: Just one of your best memories. Sam McGhee: There’s too many to try to nail down [throat clearing] one. [coughing] I think my best memory of workin’ in the plant was my rapport with the people in the plant. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sam McGhee: I always had a good rapport with everybody in the plant [throat clearing] and, you know, sure, I had altercations with people in that plant, especially on some disciplinary cases or late comin’ into work, bringin’ alcohol into the plant, and stuff like that but as far as my memory of being – goin’ against somebody or havin’ a – uh, just people in general. Marilyn Coulter: Um. [32:19] Now, did you not meet your second wife here in the plant? Sam McGhee: Yes, I did. [On 32:23] Security. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 32:24] Security. Sam McGhee: Yep. She worked Security on night shift and yeah, that’s how we met. Marilyn Coulter: So – alright, so that was a good memory. [laughter] Let’s continue. [laughter] I know [inaudible 32:35]. Sam McGhee: If, if you wanna say it’s a good memory, okay, that’s a good memory. Marilyn Coulter: I know your [inaudible 32:38]. [laughter] Michael Fleming: M-, Mike Fleming. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 32:40]. Michael Fleming: [32:41] Who was your second, second – what’s her name? And you said she worked security for General Motors? Sam McGhee: A-, a-, a-, then, it was – her name was [Annette Beard 32:46]. Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: And, uh, we met here in the plant [inaudible 32:51] and she was workin’ [inaudible 32:52] b-, matter a fact, she came on as a summer replacement. And that’s how we met ‘cause General M-, uh, they used to bring in summer replacements durin’ the summer and she came in as a summer replacement. Michael Fleming: [33:03] Any other relatives that worked for GM or Security for GM? Sam McGhee: Hm, no, other than some cousins that worked here prior to my coming here but other than that, no. Cheryl McQuaid: Jerri Smith. Jerri Smith: Yes. [throat clearing] You were talking about when you first worked here that people feared you because you had their jobs in your hand and that. [33:16] As you went through the different companies, like you went through Pinkerton and Securitas and all that, do you think the power changed in the different companies you went through? Sam McGhee: Oh, yes. Definitely. Jerri Smith: [33:37] Did it increase… Sam McGhee: D-. Jerri Smith: …decrease? Sam McGhee: The power decreased. And the reason why I know it decreased because the difference of sending Pinkerton Security person to handle a disciplinary case anywhere in the plant or the difference of comin’ down and relievin’ Sam at the desk and sending him. Jerri Smith: Hm. Sam McGhee: Because the minute the supervisor saw me, they relaxed because it’s oh, we got Sam. I’m not worried. But when they send the Pinkerton security person up there, because #1, this guy’s gonna have a tough time finding the place anyway. Number 2, once he get there, he’s not gonna know what to do. The advantage that I held over him was I probably knew who the person was and where they worked at and I knew his supervisor. So it was easier for me to do that but for Pinkerton Security personnel, it never happened. As long as they worked [inaudible 34:43], th-, it never happened. They still never gained a power, they never gained the trust of doin’ the job. Uh, they never gained the trust of respondin’ to emergencies because there were many times that we had complaints that would come back to the office that – what took’m so long. Uh, they was way over here in the Body Shop when they shoulda been upstairs in Trim. Things like that. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [35:15] Now that you’re speaking about the layout of the plant and the Pinkertons and Securitas gettin’ lost, how is – how did you get around the plant? Sam McGhee: It d-, we went from a walkin’ status to a scooter status. At first, with the old security guards, we walked everywhere except on weekends and then we s-, would use the scooters to do what we call security [winds 35:42]. Security winds was when we would walk through the plant and punch the little fire boxes to let the guy at the dispatch desk know that yes, we did go through the Paint area, we did go through Body Shop, we did go through Trim, and we did check all the necessary emergency areas by hittin’ those boxes in those locations. But, uh, other than the getting around – and that was something that was part of your 2-week break-in training is how you learned the plant because you had to learn every building in the plant a-, and which way the line went. Just in case you did have to run an emergency, you would know where to go, the shortest way to get there, and not get locked up and get caught in any break in the line where they would have crosswalks. Cheryl McQuaid: [36:40] So why do you think Securitas and Pinkertons had such – did they not get a 2-week break-in like you did? Why did they have a, a hard time getting to know the layout of the plant? Sam McGhee: Because at the t-, when, when General Motors made the change, it was done, bang [clapping], quickly. And all of a sudden, Pinkerton people showed up and then it was left up to the people who were here, including myself, to teach these new people comin’ in. And it was kinda difficult doin’ that because a the fact that #1, they were brought straight from the streets. The majority of’m had never worked in a factory before. They did not know what to expect, what they were supposed to do, and like from the Pinkerton top level, they were told this is what you gotta do. These people do not do this, these people do not do that. And the General Motors people here just looked at these people and said you must be outta your mind. You don’t know nothing about what’s goin’ on around here. You don’t even know how to get [inaudible 37:54] – most a time, they would have to stop and ask people on the line how to get from the office to the gate. And that’s understandable because that was a big plant and you could get lost. And they got lost quite a few times. Cheryl McQuaid: So they didn’t get the 2-week break-in. Sam McGhee: They, they didn’t – not – no, not, not like the regular Security people got. [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: Nor… Sam McGhee: No. Cheryl McQuaid: …did they have the [throat clearing] respect a the people on the line. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: So and then they were walkin’ into a factory just like you and I when – our first day walkin’ in there. This huge building. So they, they were in a lose-lose situation. Sam McGhee: I, I think so. They were in a lose-lose situation because it, it, it even made it kinda tough for me because I had to answer a lotta questions for the things that they did wrong. And the reason I had to answer those questions because I was the dispatcher. People knew where to find me. All they had to do was jump on the phone and call Sam at the desk and ask why is these guys up here? Why is these guys out here? Why aren’t these guys up here? I called for a lock to be opened 2 hours ago. Why aren’t they here? I had to answer all those questions. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Sam. [throat clearing] Um. Through the transitions and all that and you said it kinda went down, uh, and I’m sure that, uh, w-, when you meant that, [coughing] economically as well. Uh. [39:23] Uniforms, uh, and the cost incurred with your uniforms, was it ever a time where the company took care a that or were you always responsible for your own uniforms? Sam McGhee: With General Motors, they took care of our uniforms. They bought all our uniforms, they had them cleaned, pressed. [throat clearing] The only thing that we had to buy were shoes. They bought winter coats, they bought, uh, outdoor winter gear if we had to go outside. But that was for General Motors. When Pinkerton came on the scene, Pinkerton furnished, uh, I think 4 sets shirts, pants, jacket but you had to have your own stuff cleaned. They didn’t – after they gave it to ya, that was it. So that did change that status. Uh. And it, it pretty much showed because in the dress of the people that came in with Pinkerton, there were no pride in how you wear the uniform, how you present yourself. But it stuck with me. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sam McGhee: People used to always come in, hey, Sam, oh y-, how c-, how come you always look like you do in your uniform and the other guys look so tacky [inaudible 40:57]? I keep tryin’ to tell ya I come from the old school. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: S-, uh, Sam, you told us there were a lot of best days. [41:09] Could you tell us about any of the worst days? Or was there a worst day? One that just st-, stood out in your mind that you just can’t seem to shake? Sam McGhee: Hm. Quite a few. Quite a few. And they had to do with – maybe I would say m-, probably the one that sticks out the most with me was the day – night that the gentlemans died up there in the pit. Marilyn Coulter: [41:38] Can you tell us about that? Sam McGhee: Hm. Marilyn Coulter: [41:40] Were you involved that day? Sam McGhee: I was o-, I was at work that night and by – when I arrived on the scene, it was pretty much just about all over but I was in the plant that night. And, uh, that was probably the, the worst experience that I had in Fisher Body as far as loss of life. And because a the fact of the number and how it happened. It was, it was, it was sorta like the, the whole plant went numb that night. Everybody just stopped. It was like I don’t know what to do. And I think it probably was, [sighing] was at that time was when safety started to escalate itself a-, after that incident because I think they found out that there were some things that they could’ve done safety-wise that woulda prevented some a those deaths. Or some test equipment that they could’ve used prior to going in there. And after that, they did come up with test equipment because after that time, you weren’t allowed to go in a pit nowhere in that plant unless it had been cleared by Safety and Security. And that’s what derived outta that. And it became – I mean, it didn’t make no difference if it was only 3 feet deep and you could stand up in there. You weren’t allowed to go in there until it was completely cleared, ventilated, checked, rechecked, safety equipment on scene in case there was an incident. So it, it, it – that incident brought on a lotta changes within that plant as far as safety, security, and changes within Safety and Security. Michael Fleming: M-, Mike Fleming, Sam. [43:52] While you’re talking about that, can you think of any other fatal or tragic accidents within the plant that you were aware of? Sam McGhee: We had another one up in Trim where the gentleman got, uh, caught in the conveyer line and got killed up there. Uh. Other than that, we, we did have incidents with guys, you know, havin’ heart attacks and dying in the plant. Um. [sighing] But nothing other than those. We’ve – some bad fights. Some that people got a little c-, carried away and some people were hurt and incidents like that but not as many. Marilyn Coulter: Sam… Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. [laughter] [44:40] Can you remember what was maybe one a the funniest [coughing] calls you got called out on? Sam McGhee: I had a funny – uh, y-, I, I d-, I, I don’t say it was funny [throat clearing] but we had this one guy in the plant. Every Friday night [thumping], he would get drunk. [thumping] [throat clearing] He worked on the Wet Deck. He would get drunk and we would have to go up there and get him and take him outta the plant. And the reason why – i-, it, it really wasn’t funny but it got to be a funny thing because it happened every week and it was the [thumping] same [thumping] guy. And it seemed like every time it [thumping] happened, they would figure out a way somehow to get [thumping] me. [laughter] And I think the funniest thing about it is one night, we went up there to get him and he – somehow, he had gotten into some grease [laughter] and we went up there to get him and he was gonna run. He took off running down the hallway and, you know, drunk person tryin’ to run through Fisher Body is dangerous. Cheryl McQuaid: Very dangerous. Sam McGhee: Very dangerous. Well, we was tryin’ to get to him before he hurt himself. Well, I caught him. And I didn’t realize he had all this grease [inaudible 45:58]. That guy rubbed grease all over me. [laughter] And my coworkers literally laughed at me when I walked the guy out. My, my sergeant and I walked the guy outta the [coughing] plant. Matter a fact, we called the police on him that night and they took him downtown. But he put grease all over me. After I come back, I had to go change clothes and my coworkers laughed at me. Michael Fleming: Mike… Sam McGhee: [Inaudible 46:24]. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Sam. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 46:27]. Michael Fleming: Um. [throat clearing] There was – uh, I’m, I’m sure quite a few, um, covert operations within this plant. Undercover drug busts and those types of things. [46:40] Can you talk about some a those incidents that had o-, occurred here? Sam McGhee: Uh. N-, until late but normally – drug interventions were normally not done by Security personnel within the plant. They would always go get somebody else, maybe from Oldsmobile. They’ll bring over Security people within – at staff level over there who were in Security and they would do all the investigation. They’d always bring in somebody who nobody in Fisher Body basically knew. You didn’t know who these people were. And sometimes we didn’t know who they were. But that was something that we normally never had anything to do with because it was always done at a level either outside a the plant or above us. Michael Fleming: [47:34] Did you ever see any drug busts in the actual plant go on as far as, uh, the outside agencies coming in, taking people out? Sam McGhee: Quite a few. Michael Fleming: [47:45] Well, can you talk about [inaudible 47:47]? Sam McGhee: Well, b-, basically what happened is, uh, they – after they would – they would bring in a surveillance team that nobody knew anything about and they’d surveillance for a while and once they determined who was doin’ it, where it was happenin’ at, probably one Friday night, all of a sudden you would see outside agency show up and here comes 4 or 5 guys gettin’ marched outta the plant. And – but that was from long-term surveillance and like you didn’t know nothin’ about it because [inaudible 48:20] what happened is the se-, police would just show up at the front door, walk right by the desk, and they knew exactly where they were goin’ and they knew exactly who they were goin’ after. Michael Fleming: There was one recently. Uh, within the last 5 years if I’m not mistaken. Sam McGhee: Right. The b-, pretty good-sized one ‘cause… Michael Fleming: Y-… Sam McGhee: …they marched… Michael Fleming: [48:39] Tell us about that. Sam McGhee: …[laughter] they m-… [laughter] Michael Fleming: Tell us about that one. Sam McGhee: …they marched quite a few people outta here that night. [laughter] Th-, that was [one] [inaudible 48:45] because I think drugs had gotten to be a big thing in the plant and they were – they knew it was happenin’, they knew who were doin’ it, but they didn’t realize it was as big as it was until they got [inaudible 49:00] in it. And the night that they pulled that one off, they brought quite a few people in here and they took quite a few people outta here. Cheryl McQuaid: [49:08] What is quite a few? Sam McGhee: [laughter] [When 49:10] – I would say close to about 20 people. Jerri Smith: [Inaudible 49:16]. Cheryl McQuaid: Wow. Sam McGhee: It was close to about 20 people. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming. [49:19] Were they – they weren’t – they di-, they didn’t show their faces either, did they, Sam? Sam McGhee: No. Michael Fleming: [49:23] Talk about that, Sam. Sam McGhee: [laughter] They tried to get the people [inaudible 49:29] because they d-, they really didn’t want it to be known that – you know, they didn’t want nobody to know who it was or nothin’ and they didn’t wanna know who it was. But basically, everybody knew who it was. Everybody knew who these people were. They knew who they were. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Had a dragnet inside Fisher Body. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [49:54] So there was, in your opinion, a lot of substance abuse? Drug and alcohol? You saw a lot of it or…? Sam McGhee: On a daily basis, yes. Within the plant, alcohol, uh, especially on night shift. Night shift was always worser at these things than it were on day shift. I don’t know whether because – I, I, I think it had to do with [thumping] y-, your old-timers, supervisors and everything were on day shift. And they pretty much knew their people and the people who were on day shift were the older seniority people. On night shift, you had the younger new hires. You had younger supervisors. So a lotta stuff that went on on night shift – and plus, it – I’d say about the last 15 years, they hired a lotta young people in off the street and with them came drugs, alcohol, um, all kinda different stuff. And that’s when it got to-, got into this thing of sayin’ okay, how do we stop it? And that’s when they’d start bringin’ in surveillances and goin’ through the whole routine of bustin’ people and stuff like that. Cheryl McQuaid: [51:22] So GM did put forth effort to try to stop… Sam McGhee: Right. Th-, yes, they did. Cheryl McQuaid: …that behavior. Sam McGhee: Yes, they did. Because, because a the fact that a lot of the General Motors people themselves started to complain. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: Because they knew it was going on and they just didn’t – they didn’t want it around them because it created a bad atmosphere for the people themselves workin’ around these people. And they said they know it’s goin’ on. And so they started to complain about it and says wait a minute, somebody gotta do somethin’ about this. Every night this guy’s walkin’ up and down the line and I know what he’s doin’ and there ain’t nobody up there checkin’ it out. Little did they know. Marilyn Coulter: [Somebody] [inaudible 52:04]. Cheryl McQuaid: Um. [52:06] Sam, what, what did you see in employees and theft? Did you see much theft and if so, what kind of theft did you see? Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 52:18]. Sam McGhee: Uh, yes, there were theft within the plant and – but basically, it was petty stuff. Uh. Gloves, tape, uh, screws, bolts, nuts. Uh. As far as car parts, small things that they could get in they pocket, like maybe, uh, [sniffing] knobs that come off a interior, w-, or a-, a-, any small objects that they could get in either in they lunch buckets or in they pocket or people used to take stuff and wrap it around they body on the inside and put on the shop coat and walk out with it. But I don’t think – s-, some – it did develop into some major stuff because that’s when people started, uh, puttin’ stuff on shop trucks and takin’ it out to they trucks. Stuff like that did happen. [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: [53:25] Well, I remember years ago hearing about a car theft ring within the, the plant. Sam McGhee: I don’t think there was a car theft ring because we – that… Marilyn Coulter: Thought it was a chassis. [throat clearing] Sam McGhee: …that couldn’t happen in our plant because we only did the body. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. Marilyn Coulter: Thought it was a chassis. Sam McGhee: So that had to be over at Chassis. Marilyn Coulter: Um. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. Marilyn Coulter. [throat clearing] Marilyn Coulter: [53:45] What – if some person was to wrap somethin’ around their body or have something in their pocket, what would cause a Security person to go into their pocket or to check out their body? Sam McGhee: Suspicion or another worker saw this person do this on the line and called down to the gate and says hey, you need to check out so-and-so. And, and per se, we did have a lotta people in that plant that would call down and tell Security hey, this guy’s up here, I saw him puttin’ a whole handful a screws in his pocket. And he later identified the clothing that he had on, what they look like and everything. And the guys used to be surprised, said wait a minute, how did you know that? Your own people told on ya. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: M-¸ Mike Fleming, Sam. Um. [laughter] Uh. Th-, you talk about the people tellin’ on each other. Um. [54:47] What, what are some of the, the bigger things that you can attest to that, that you all caught before it got outta the plant? I mean, was there anything large? Sam McGhee: Parts. Car parts that was possibly s-… Michael Fleming: Radios… Sam McGhee: …stored… Michael Fleming: …[anything] [inaudible 55:09]. Sam McGhee: …somewhere until a later date or maybe till the weekend when ain’t nobody’s in here and then we can take it out. Radios. We found, uh, places where different car parts was stored in a box to later be taken out and stuff like that. But all you do is you just put a surveillance on it and wait for somebody to come pick it up. And that’s how they got caught. But that happened in different occasions where people would stash stuff somewhere to be taken out at a later date. Or a lotta people would just come out – bring it out with the crowd because there was just only so many people you can check at that gate house when they comin’ out goin’ home. When you lookin’ at a hundred people, you can stand on each side of’m and that guy that’s standin’ in the middle, if he flashes his lunch bucket, I did my job. Nothing says that – you know, and it always was a standard thing in Security. You didn’t put your hand on nobody. Michael Fleming: Yeah. Sam McGhee: You did not put your hand on nobody. And – because if you put your hand on’m, you just, you just lost. Now, you could stand in front of’m and the thing about it is, they knew they had lost if they put they hand on you. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sam McGhee: But like I say, if you knew somebody had something like they say and you knew it, you could restrain’m. But you better make sure they got it. You better make sure they got it. Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 56:48]. Sam McGhee: And that did happen a lotta times. Michael Fleming: Sam, I got one for ya. And just do the best ya can with this one. [clicking] [56:59] How many locks have you popped in your tenure at Fisher Body? Sam McGhee: None. I never had to. Michael Fleming: Okay. Sam McGhee: I n-, uh, that was done because anytime you pop a lock, it was either done by a sergeant or a supervisor. But Security was always there to witness it. [coughing] The only way you would pop a lock, even if you know something was in it… Michael Fleming: [57:32] Have you witnessed [inaudible 57:33]? Sam McGhee: I wit-, I witnessed a bunch of’m. [laughter] Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 57:35]. Sam McGhee: I witnessed a bunch of’m… Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 57:37]. Sam McGhee: …bein’ popped. [laughter] Michael Fleming: I, I asked if [inaudible 57:39]. Sam McGhee: But I never had to do it myself. Michael Fleming: Yeah. Sam McGhee: But I witnessed a bunch of’m bein’ popped. Cheryl McQuaid: [I wanna] [inaudible 57:43]. Sam McGhee: Because they, they, they had – it was, it was on a suspect or [throat clearing] something was told or something that was seen and they go pop it. And most times, they would find what they were lookin’ for. Cheryl McQuaid: Um. Cheryl McQuaid. [57:59] Could you explain what pop a lock means? Sam McGhee: That means cuttin’ somebody’s lock off with them not there. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter. Marilyn Coulter: [58:10] When you pop a lock, who are the individuals that have to be present when you do that? Sam McGhee: Hm, most times, it’s only a, a, a supervisor of that area… Michael Fleming: Committeeman. Sam McGhee: …and a committeeman and Security. Marilyn Coulter: Security. Okay. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [58:33] What types a things are they looking for when they pop the lock? Sam McGhee: Lotta [inaudible 58:37] drugs, alcohol, uh, things – uh, drill motors that they use on the line. People would put’m in they lockers. And, and that was part of a theft because people used to steal drill motors. The, the, the drill motors that they used on they jobs, they used to come up gone all the time. Michael Fleming: M-, Mike Fleming. Sam McGhee: And a lotta times, they were in lockers. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Sam. [59:03] Can you remember any large amount of substance or anything illegal found in a locker, uh, that, that was, uh, brought to, to you guys’ attention that ya had to go and get? Sam McGhee: I wouldn’t say a large amount. And when you say large amount, but, uh, small amounts, yes. And normally when it’s found, it’s normally taken down, tagged, kept in Security locked area until that person shows up back to work and then he was called in by his supervisor, committeeman, and Security and they sit down and they discussed it as to why it was in there, what was the purpose of it. And lotta times, y-, you either got fired or you got time off… Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn… Cheryl McQuaid: Marilyn Coulter. Sam McGhee: …depending on what it was. Marilyn Coulter: Um, Sam, you said that oft times, you found more drugs on the second shift. [1:00:05] Was there any department that you found it was more prevalent to have to have locks popped than others or any particular time s-, spring – frame? Sam McGhee: No. Marilyn Coulter: It’s just pretty much random. Sam McGhee: Pretty much random but more so on night shift than on day shift. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:00:21] Was is mostly on Friday night compared to Monday night? Cheryl McQuaid. Sorry. Sam McGhee: Uh. Monday nights were always a bad night because comin’ back off the weekends, people were a little bit sluggish, they a little bit out of it. They’ve been out on the weekend. Thursday nights, pay night, Friday nights, pay night, and basically Thursday nights and Friday nights was when they would go across the street to Harry’s Bar and have a few drinks too many and come back and we – then we s-, we could almost look forward to on Thursday nights and Friday night, we would be takin’ somebody outta the plant. Whether they be drunk, whether they be fighting, or what. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:01:10] Did you ever just not allow the employees to come back into the plant? Sam McGhee: A lotta times. If we felt that they were too drunk to perform their jobs on the line, we could make that decision and all you’d do is call the supervisor down to the gate and says I’m sorry, we’re not gonna let him back in ‘cause he’s too drunk. But then they would – then we would leave – either leave it up to the committeeman or Labor Relations or Security. Before they would turn him loose out on the road, they would try to find him a ride home. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: Call his – some – his folks, his wife, husband, whatever; somebody to come pick him up. Cheryl McQuaid: Michael Fleming. Michael Fleming: Sam, I’m gonna take ya back a ways. 1971. [1:01:59] And in the ’70s and very early ’80s, there was a lotta stock in this plant, which created a lot of probably, uh, vermin as well as people that lived in this plant in beds and whatnot. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:02:16]. Michael Fleming: [1:02:16] Talk about some a those, uh [inaudible 1:02:18]. Sam McGhee: We’ve alw-, I think – back, back then, in the ’70s, yes, we did have people who literally lived in this plant. And I don’t n-, I don’t think it was because a the fact that they did not have a place. It was the fact that they chose to live here in this plant for some reason. I don’t know why. [laughter] But, uh, yes, we used to, we used to walk through the plant at night on winds and we knew that we could go up in certain – go up in the [inaudible 1:02:52] area up in those roof area and you could always find somebody layin’ up there in a bed. Because it, it became somethin’ like a sa-, a safety matter because we had people in the plant who, say, per se, worked in Maintenance or worked in [Booth 1:03:09] Cleaners, that they time start did not start until the line went down. So these people had to go somewhere until maybe – if they come in at 10:00 at night and the line don’t shut down till 1 or 2, these people are [stationaried 1:03:26] in that plant somewhere, so they go anywhere in the plant and go to sleep. But still, even on weekends, there were people that never left this plant on weekends. No more than just g-, maybe [laughter] go out and get’m somethin’ to eat and, and, you know, and they would c-, always come back in before the lines went down or they would – when the line went down, they go out, get’m somethin’ to eat, come back in the plant. And you knew it. You knew it. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. Sam McGhee: And when they did catch’m, they would [inaudible 1:04:05] okay, you gotta get outta here. [laughter] You gotta get outta here. And they would leave for a while but they would find a way to get back in. Cheryl McQuaid: Jerri Smith. Jerri Smith: [1:04:15] Were these employees? Sam McGhee: Employees. They were employees. They were employees that worked [laughter] on the line literally. [throat clearing] And I c-, I, I n-, we could – never could understand it either. Good workers on the line. [coughing] But for some reason, they just [thumping] [couldn’t find] [inaudible 1:04:32]. Michael Fleming: Uh. Mike Fleming. One more, uh, asset – facet to that. [1:04:39] What was the largest animal you ever found within this facility? Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:04:43]. Sam McGhee: Largest? Michael Fleming: You know, be it a cat, uh, you know, [inaudible 1:04:50]. Sam McGhee: Deer. Michael Fleming: Okay. Sam McGhee: We had a deer up in here once. Michael Fleming: Okay. Sam McGhee: We [definitely] [inaudible 1:04:55]. Raccoons lived in here. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: Pigeons lived in here. Marilyn Coulter: Rats. [laughter] Sam McGhee: Cats. Rats lived in that plant. Michael Fleming: [1:05:05] How big [are 1:05:05] the rats [inaudible 1:05:06]. Sam McGhee: Now, now, the rats, uh, I’m a tell you. There were some big rats in this plant. [laughter] There were some big rats in Fisher Body. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: ‘Cause I’m tellin’ you, when you walkin’ around here at 3 and 4:00 in the mornin’ and you walk by a barrel and all of a sudden, something come up outta [throat clearing] that barrel, you don’t ask questions. Security or no Security, lights [laughter] [a stick 1:05:31], whatever. Uh-huh, you don’t ask questions. [laughter] You just [thumping] – you run down the aisle a ways [laughter] and try to find you a light and turn it on because you’re not goin’ back [inaudible 1:05:39]. [laughter] It, i-, it w-, it was kinda scary sometimes to walk through this p-, walk through that plant at night. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: It was really scary because when they shut off all them lights, that place becomes dark… Michael Fleming: Hm. Sam McGhee: …and if you don’t know where you goin’, you, you could [get] [inaudible 1:05:56]. Matter a fact, I s-, I, I still got that scar today [laughter] on my finger where I crossed a line in the Body Shop one night walkin’ the winds and I crossed a line and if you know anything about the Body Shop… Michael Fleming: [Inaudible 1:06:10]. Sam McGhee: …the metal before it is, uh, grind down or prepped for, for the work bein’ done on it, that metal is razor sharp… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: …and I stepped across the line one night and I sorta got off balance and I reach over and grab the car to balance myself and I sliced my finger. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:06:31]. Sam McGhee: I mean, that, that was – I mean, people used to be walkin’ through the plant and just walk up against stuff and, and get a nasty cut from things like that. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:06:41]. Sam McGhee: But yes, animals – but the deer was the biggest animal that we [thumping] had up in the plant. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:06:47] And where was the deer? I’m sorry. Cheryl McQuaid. Sam McGhee: It ca-, if you were – the gate 4 area. I don’t know if you’re aware of the gate [4 area 1:06:57] but it was at the southwest corner of the plant. And somehow – that was where the trucks would come in and out for body shippin’. And those gates normally stayed open till 3, 4:00 in the mornin’. And even after that, they never got closed, so a deer just somehow got – wandered up in there and once he got inside a that fence, he couldn’t figure out how to get out and he ran straight up that ramp up in the plant down through the Body Shop. [laughter] And we just knew that by the time he got outta there, he was gonna be dead. But finally, he d-, they – we got around in there and kind of guided him back to the outside. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. [1:07:41] Was this during working hours or at… Sam McGhee: No. Jerri Smith: …night? Sam McGhee: The plant was down. Jerri Smith: Whew. Sam McGhee: It was after, [laughter] it was after the line had [laughter] shut down. Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:07:50]. Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, Sam. Y-, you worked with a lotta people in your tenure here. [1:07:57] Do you remember a guy named [Jeff Boldrich 1:07:58]? Sam McGhee: [laughter] Yes, I do. Michael Fleming: [1:08:02] You wanna talk [laughter] a little bit about Jeff Boldrich? Sam McGhee: Oh, Jeff, Jeff. Jeff came here as a new hire but Jeff was very, very high-strung person and he was, he was true Security. He had a thing for people who drank alcohol and people who did drugs. And Jeff would do everything in his power to make sure that you didn’t do that with him around. And he would go out of his way to catch you. Drugs or alcohol, he had a thing. Now, they thought maybe – some people thought he might – w-, he overdid his job. To this day, I don’t think he was – he overdid his job but he was just a little bit more high-strung at it than others were. Michael Fleming: [1:08:57] Did he actually get on top a the roof to watch people as they crossed the street that you can remember? Sam McGhee: All Security people did that. Michael Fleming: Okay. Sam McGhee: All of us at some time or another was placed in a situation on the roof to actually watch somebody… Michael Fleming: But [inaudible 1:09:13]… Sam McGhee: …or placed in a p-, specific spot to watch a certain person… Michael Fleming: Okay. Sam McGhee: …within the plant. Michael Fleming: Sure. Well, here’s a question and [inaudible 1:09:24]. [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Um. Sam, Marilyn Coulter. [sniffing] There was a lot of changes that happened in Fisher Body and, um, you talked about, um, some a the other contrabands. Um. Smoking, once again, became contraband in the plant. There was designated areas. [1:09:44] How did that work for Security? Sam McGhee: Basically, it worked for s-, Security the same as it worked for anybody else ‘cause what-, whatever decision that they came out with for the s-, no smokin’, it became the same thing to us because it, it stopped us from smokin’ in the gate houses. We couldn’t smoke in the gate houses no more. And basically, our thing – well, we really couldn’t smoke around the gates period after they went to that thing. They just said no, you’re not gonna smoke anywhere unless you’re on break, in the cafeteria, or you would be – go to the designated smokin’ areas around the plant. Because if we didn’t, then we couldn’t enforce it. Marilyn Coulter: So… Sam McGhee: So we had to be the first ones that abide by it. Marilyn Coulter: [1:10:30] Did you have to enforce it a lot on the floor? Sam McGhee: It was kinda tough for a lotta people who, who were – who had been smokin’ probably all they life that just [coughing] says hey, [throat clearing] I’m not goin’ outside in the cold just to smoke a cigarette. And the l-, and, you know, it became – you know, once they couldn’t smoke inside a the plant anywhere, some people did brave the cold and go out there and smoke. Th-, you know, they, they had to have it. But we tried to enforce it wherever we saw someone smokin’. [Inaudible 1:11:00] hey, you gotta [throat clearing] put it out. [throat clearing] Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: But I don’t think it came down to the fact that you actually had – we actually wrote anybody up for smokin’. [coughing] It was just a warning. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Another thing – some things that people don’t know about Security. I know Security, um – well, even before I go there. [1:11:20] Do you keep in touch with any of your other fellow Security guys that have retired? Sam McGhee: Sure. Since, uh, [since we retired 1:11:25] every, every – I think every – once a month, I think it’s now on a first Thursday or third, third Thursday a the month, some a the older guys still get together a-, at one a the restaurants here in town and they have breakfast together. But it’s not but about, uh, less than 10, I would say, that I know [throat clearing] of that’s [around here 1:11:52]. Marilyn Coulter: [Really 1:11:53]? Okay, um, you – there were some other things that the Security did for the community. [1:12:00] D-, th-, um, do you remember any a types a things that you did for some a the neighboring schools? Sam McGhee: Hm. I think d-, d-, d-, durin’, durin’ the Christmas holidays, I think we used to do – we did, we did fruit baskets and stuff like that. We would get together as a Security force and we’d do fruit baskets and stuff like that… Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Sam McGhee: …for Christmas or [throat clearing] Thanksgiving, we’d do – we’d pick out, uh, maybe 2 or 3 different families and we’d buy Thanksgivin’ dinners for. That was some a the things. And that was things that w-, we did within ourselves on Security or we would do it in conjunction with, maybe, Labor Relations or with Safety or some other group… Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sam McGhee: …that we’d be a part of in doin’ things. Marilyn Coulter: [1:12:48] Did you guys also help the Verlinden children in terms of getting… Sam McGhee: We, we did the… Marilyn Coulter: …[inaudible 1:12:52]? Sam McGhee: …we did the crosswalk for the Verlinden children. That was a [coughing] – that was one of our jobs. Marilyn Coulter: [1:12:58] Now, I noticed that there was a red sign that said stop and go. Was that something that was made by Secu-, by skilled trades people here in the plant? Was it something that was purchased? Sam McGhee: I think it made by the skilled trades people within the plant for – specifically for Security. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. [1:13:15] And how long – when did that practice start and how long did it continue? Sam McGhee: Oh. [sighing] They were doin’ that when I hired in. And they did it [throat clearing] right up until probably ’93 just before Pink-, I mean, [inaudible 1:13:33] Pinkerton came in. Marilyn Coulter: Okay. Um. There’s a lotta things that people do in the community. I know that you’re very community oriented. [1:13:41] Can you tell us some a the things that Sam McGhee does for the community outside of Fisher Body? Sam McGhee: [laughter] [tsk] Other than – I guess if you say – if you include my coachin’ aspects, I [coached 1:13:55] [coughing] in the city of Lansing for the last 30-some-odd years and I’m very much inclined dealing with young people in football, baseball, softball. I [had 1:14:11] my own womens’ softball team in Lansing. I played on various mens’ baseball, softball teams in Lansing. I work – I’m a member of the Capitol Lodge #8 Masonics, member of the Trinity ME Church and the Sons of Allen there. I also [coached 1:14:34] basketball at Trinity Church. Uh. I’m involved with the – I’m on the education and issue team for the mayor’s race and diversity program. Uh. Other than that, it’s about it. [Yeah 1:14:58]. Cheryl McQuaid: That’s a lot. Marilyn Coulter: That’s quite a bit. [Inaudible] [someone 1:15:00]. [laughter] [throat clearing] So – and you said you were retired. Sam McGhee: I am retired. Marilyn Coulter: Only from Fisher Body. Um. Sam, you worked here for over 30 years and, um, [coughing] now Fisher Body is getting ready to close. It s-, went through a lot of name changes and, um, it’s closing now. [1:15:22] What do you feel about that? Sam McGhee: Being retired, it does not affect me but I think because of the many [throat clearing] people that I met throughout my 30-some-odd years, I think I have a somewhat down feeling about some a the people that are still here that possibly could maybe lose their jobs or get displaced somewhere else and I, I guess even since I retired or since the last 10 years that I spent in Fisher Body, I saw a lot of displacement. I saw a lotta people leave here, go to other cities, go to other states, [throat clearing] and I guess I s-, I sorta felt bad for those people because I, I think I sorta thought the same situation would happen to Security when General Motors got rid of their security force and then brought Pinkerton in. I – we had mixed feelings when that happened to us, so I guess I sorta had a feeling for – now for the people now who are goin’ through this transition of, saying – havin’ a plant shut down [coughing] up under you and you got to get displaced. It’s an adjustment and it’s same adjustment I had to make comin’ from General Motors Security to Pinkerton Security. But thank goodness [coughing] I was still protected by GM, so therefore, it – the reason why it didn’t bother me, ‘cause my pay status didn’t change. My pay status escalated when Pinkerton came in because a the position that I was in and because of who I was comin’ from where I was. That’s how General Motors protected me. And they protected me for those 10 years and says hey, he might work for you but we gonna pay him. He will have the authority and when they first come in, I did have the opportunity to pick my own job because of who I was and where I came from and that’s how I ended up as a dispatcher. That was – I chose that job. Matter a fact, that’s what brought me off a midnight shift ‘cause I had worked midnights for 22 years. And my last 10 years in there, I worked dispatch. [coughing] Michael Fleming: Mike Fleming, S-, Sam. [throat clearing] You worked dispatch down by the main gate. Um. I, I, I wanted to ask about after 9/11, certainly we, we all had, uh, a lot more awareness of, of our, uh, our patriotism and where we were in this world and security got tighter. I don’t know – there were some flower pots out in front of the building. [1:18:34] Were those there before 9/11? Sam McGhee: No. Michael Fleming: [1:18:38] Can you talk about that? Sam McGhee: Those flower pots were put there to [throat clearing] stop anybody from running a car [inaudible] [down 1:18:44] them steps into s-, that buildin’. That was exactly reason why they were put there. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sam McGhee: For that specific reason. And, you know, I, I th-, everybody on Security knew why those flower pots were put there. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Sam McGhee: And, you know, I, I guess in my wildest dreams, I never thought about a car running down those steps but I guess, hey, th-, nobody ever thought of 9/11 either but who knows. But that was one a the security measures that was taken as far as a security measure a people runnin’ something up those steps or in that front door [inaudible 1:19:22]. Michael Fleming: [1:19:23] Kind of explain how big those pots were because I, I found it one day. I just noticed when I came in, I could hardly walk by them. [Inaudible 1:19:30]. Sam McGhee: I think them pots was about [throat clearing] 3 to 4 foot tall and about 5 to 6 foot in diameter. They were big. Michael Fleming: [1:19:40] What other security… Marilyn Coulter: [Inaudible 1:19:42]. Michael Fleming: …uh, precautions were taken in the building for n-, f-, since 9/11? Sam McGhee: Uh. Back then, the lunch box checks got – we b-, they, they – we were told that we would go on a 100-percent check of lunch buckets. We were told that. But, uh, [throat clearing] like I always said, to check 100 percent of, say, thousands a people comin’ outta the plant at night goin’ home, who’s – half of’m are walkin’ real fast, some’s are running, some’s just takin’ they time. But that was the thing that we were told after 9/11 is that hey, everything is 100-percent check. Even our checks of vehicles coming in and outta the plant, at random time, we can randomly anytime stop any truck comin’ in there and do a 100-percent check of that truck, which means the driver comes out, we go through the cab completely, look in every box, we open the back door, go through the material before it gets on the dock. And a lotta times, the stuff – [inaudible 1:20:59] we do t-, random checks of stuff comin’ outta the plant. Stuff comin’ outta the plant we do [inaudible 1:20:04]. Af-, after 9/11, it was – I mean, e-, even th-, when they put the revolvin’ d-, gates in there, that’s when they went with the thing of checkin’ peoples’ [cards 1:21:15], uh, you had to give your social security number, where you worked at, and tell all a this before you could get in. Or you’d gimme your name and I’d have to go through the computer and bring you up on the computer and identify you [throat clearing] before I could let you in. That became – that was after 9/11. So it, uh, it changed considerably. Cheryl McQuaid: [1:21:39] Sam, is there anything that you’d like to share with us that we’ve not asked you? Sam McGhee: I think you just about covered everything. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Well, then, we’d like to say thank you… Marilyn Coulter: Thank you. Cheryl McQuaid: …so much. Michael Fleming: Thank you, Sam. Jerri Smith: Yes… Marilyn Coulter: Thank you. Jerri Smith: …thank you. Sam McGhee: Sure. [clicking] /ad