Bud Williams, an African American, discusses his career as a UAW production worker and GM manager at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doreen Howard: Okay. Hi, Doreen Howard. I’m with the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. We’re at the Fisher Body plant in the Skill Center Conference Room. Today is October 25, 2005, and we will be interviewing Bud Williams. [0:20] Bud, can you state your name and spell your last name and your address, please. Bud Williams: Uh, Bud Williams. My last name is spelled Williams. Address 410 Elmshaven Drive in Lansing, Michigan 48917. Doreen Howard: And why don’t you guys go ahead and introduce yourselves. Linda Johnson: I’m Linda Johnson. John Fedewa: And I’m John Fedewa. Doreen Howard: Okay, um, we’ll get some of the biographical information out of the way here. [0:54] Um, are you married? Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: [0:58] And do you have any children? Bud Williams: Yes, I have three daughters. Doreen Howard: Okay. [1:01] And did any of your children work here? Bud Williams: No. Doreen Howard: No. Okay. [1:06] Um, do you have, um, any military service? Bud Williams: No, I don’t. Doreen Howard: [1:12] And what is your educational background? Bud Williams: Uh, two years of college. Doreen Howard: Um, I’d like to start with, um, [1:21] can you recall your first day that you were hired in to Fisher Body? Bud Williams: I sure can. Doreen Howard: [1:32] When was that? Bud Williams: That was on September 16, 1964. I was hired in in the Trim Department. My supervisor was Stu [Morrier 1:45]. I worked in installing door rubbers on the old 88s and 98s. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Bud Williams: I, I think I started, yes, I started on the, on the day shift. Doreen Howard: The day shift. Bud Williams: On the day shift, yes. And we were working at the time 10 hours per day and I thought the day would never end. [chuckle] It was quite an experience. I’ve never worked that long, that many hours before. Doreen Howard: [2:28] Now when you hired in what, what brought you to Fisher Body? What was your reasons for coming here? Bud Williams: Well, I was working at the time I was, I was driving a truck for the City and it was, got kind of cold out there, you know, winter, so I thought I’d look for an inside job and I came over and I put in an application at Fisher Body and it seemed like before I got home, good, they called me. Well, I put it in I think on a Monday and they called me like Tuesday, yes. Doreen Howard: Wow. Bud Williams: They called me Tuesday and I came back on Wednesday and I went to work that same day. Doreen Howard: Linda? Linda Johnson: Linda Johnson. [3:23] Bud, how old were you when you came into the plant? Bud Williams: 22. Linda Johnson: [3:25] And were you from Lansing or were you from...? Bud Williams: No, I was from, I came here from, I lived in New York City before I came to Lansing. I originally am from Camden, South Carolina. I left, when I finished school I went to New York City and I left New York City and came to Lansing. Linda Johnson: [3:50] And how old were you when you...? Bud Williams: I was 22. Linda Johnson: ...started here? 22? Bud Williams: 22 years old when I started working. Linda Johnson: [3:55] Did you have a family yet? Bud Williams: No. All alone. Doreen Howard: [4:01] ’64, when, when you hired in in ’64, was there very many blacks that worked here at that time? Bud Williams: Uh, yeah, I would say there was a quite a few, yes. Doreen Howard: There was a large minority working here. Bud Williams: Right. Yes. Doreen Howard: [4:20] Was there a lot of women that worked here at the time? Bud Williams: No, wasn’t very many women. Doreen Howard: Just mostly males. Bud Williams: Mostly men. Doreen Howard: And you, and you worked in Trim. Bud Williams: They had a few women but not very many. Most of the women I think were the ones that got hired during the Korean War. Doreen Howard: The Korean War. Bud Williams: Right. You didn’t have any, any women of my [inaudible 4:46]. Doreen Howard: [4:48] When, when you first hired in, was there any initiations or special pranks that they, they did to you as a new hire? Bud Williams: Uh, um, none that I can remember except during when Thanksgiving came they told me to go downstairs and see Jerry Brooks who used to be the personnel director and he would give me my Thanksgiving turkey and that was a big joke they would pull on all the new hires. [chuckle] Doreen Howard: Okay. [5:26] Um, so the reception that you received was, was a good...? Bud Williams: Yes, very warm... Doreen Howard: ...good reception. Bud Williams: ...reception. Doreen Howard: Good. Um, that first day that when you came in and you said you did door rubbers... Bud Williams: Yes. [sneeze] Doreen Howard: [5:47] ...uh, can you explain what that job is and what you had to actually do? Bud Williams: Yeah, it’s a weather strip that you put around the door to keep the wind and water, dust and things, whatnots from getting in to the cars. Doreen Howard: Uh-huh. Bud Williams: At that time, we put them on with a little hammer. Nowadays, I think they’re rolled in. Doreen Howard: [6:14] Was that considered a good job or a not so good job? Bud Williams: No one liked it because you go around with your head, standing on your head all day, your head down. The job wasn’t bad, it was just the idea that you have your head down looking under the bottom of the doors and the cars didn’t ride up on high platforms like they do now for you to do under work. Doreen Howard: So ergonomically it was [inaudible 6:44]. Bud Williams: At that time, yeah, it was, it was a pain ergonomically. Doreen Howard: Okay. [6:50] Um, now how long did you do that job? Bud Williams: I did that probably six months. Doreen Howard: [6:57] And then, then where did you go? Bud Williams: Then from there I moved to a job doing wheelhouse molding which wasn’t, was a little, you moved [phone ringing] from walking on your head to sitting. Doreen Howard: To sitting down, mm-hm. [tape click] Okay, um, [7:22] can you explain a little bit what wheelhouse moldings are...? Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: ...and what that job entailed? Bud Williams: Yes, wheelhouse molding is a chrome molding that would go around the wheel openings on the body on the rear end of the car. At that time, we didn’t have the front end of the car, just the rear end. So you would put the molding on, put it in place, put four clamps on it to hold it in place, drill seven holes and drive seven screws on the same car. Doreen Howard: [8:01] Were those power tools at that time or [inaudible 8:04]? Bud Williams: Yes, they were all electric tools. They didn’t have air tools like we do today. All tools were electric and the, all of the metal shavings from the drill we used to have get your hands all burnt up with them. When you’re drilling, they all fall down on your hands and you just get all burnt up. No one cared at that time. You just stayed and worked. Doreen Howard: I see. [8:38] Now how long did you do that particular job? Bud Williams: Oh, I did that probably a year, yeah, about a year on that job. You ride around on a little stool all day. I don’t know if any of you ever experienced that or not. Doreen Howard: So you sat on a stool and scooched yourself back and forth... Bud Williams: Back and forth. Doreen Howard: ...along with the line. Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: Up underneath the wheel housing. Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: So you could... Bud Williams: Right. Doreen Howard: ...scoot down. Bud Williams: Mm-hm. Doreen Howard: Okay. [9:06] Um, so were you always in Trim? Did you always stay in Trim or did you go to any other departments? Bud Williams: Yes, I always, when I worked production I was always in Trim. [coughing] Doreen Howard: Okay. [9:20] At what point in your career did you make the transition to salary? Bud Williams: That was in 1975. Doreen Howard: ’75. Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: [9:31] And what year did you work when you first started in...? Bud Williams: I also worked in the Trim Department in the glass area, windshield and back lights. Doreen Howard: [Inaudible 9:43] okay. [9:45] And , um, how were you, how were you accepted into the management side of the house coming from...? Bud Williams: It was a very warm reception. I’ve never had any problems. As far as racial problems, there never was any. Doreen Howard: Oh, that’s good. [10:06] Um, during your time here, um, were you ever laid off at all? Bud Williams: The only layoff I had was during the model changeover. Doreen Howard: Model changeover. Bud Williams: Other than that, never laid off. And we used to have some pretty long changeovers, six, they run anywhere from four to eight weeks’ layoff during the model changeover. Doreen Howard: And... Bud Williams: Other than that, we worked all the time, never had a layoff. Doreen Howard: Okay. [10:40] Now did over your, the course of your employment here, I’m interested in some of the changes that occurred in the plant as far as, um, you know, as technology started coming in, um... Bud Williams: Oh, well... Doreen Howard: ...some of the things that, that you saw that happened in the plant that people like myself who didn’t work here during that time what’s some of the differences between the, how manufacturing was set up then to how it’s set up now? Bud Williams: Well, like doing, when I got hired, everything was done by hand. For instance, all of your, your glass we would build it, install it by hand. No automation whatsoever. All of your timekeeping, everything, had a timekeeper used to come around and pick up your cards, take them to payroll or wherever they took’m and record your time from there, bring the cards back every certain time. You had old punch clocks. Everyone that come in had to punch a card. If you didn’t punch your card, you didn’t get paid. There wasn’t no computers so the supervisor didn’t know whether you were here or not, the only reason they know is when you punch your card or if they’re on the line they did because if you weren’t on the job they knew you were absent. And as the years gone by, they went from [inaudible 12:31] into the glass area we got a few robots in there setting, setting windshields and back glass and doing the side glass, putting the urethane on the side glass, quarter glass we called them but some of those didn’t last very long because they didn’t have very much success with them and they went away for a while and then eventually they would come back. But at last it, oh, when transition from I would say it must have been around ’78 when that started and it probably lasted until around ’79, ’80 and that’s when they started making the transition into the body shop with all of the robots doing all of the welding. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Now you said you never worked in the body shop areas at all. Bud Williams: No, I never worked in the body, body or paint. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Bud Williams: ...during that time. Doreen Howard: Um, let’s see here. Um, I didn’t have anything [inaudible 14:06]. [14:11] Being in supervision, Um, did you see any changes as far as the, um, supervisory techniques that were used maybe when you first came in versus the things that they, they do now? Has there been any changes in that arena? Bud Williams: Uh, yes. A big change in the way the, the supervisors taking, uh, [inaudible 14:43] when we first started we called, the supervisors had what do we call, headcount sheets. We had to go out and take headcounts like the teacher did with the students in school manually and the way we do things now is all computer, press a button. We use a computer, we just sit there and as the people punch in, you know, they disappear from your screen. Once they disappear you know everybody is here [chuckle] as opposed to standing there walking down the line and looking to see if they’re here or someone had to come by [inaudible 15:36] she, he or she is here, so big difference, big change. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Linda? Linda Johnson: [15:47] Bud, you were talking about changeover and punching in and out, what did you do for lunch? What was your afternoon break, how did you take it? Bud Williams: Lunchtime working on the line at that time you get a lunch hour or break, you spent it lying down trying to get a little break. That was our, that’s how we spent our lunchtime then as opposed to now people run out to go out, outside or whatever and sit but at that time all we wanted to do was sit down for a few minutes We wanted to get as much rest as you can. Linda Johnson: [16:30] Did you bring lunch from home or did you...? Bud Williams: Yes. Linda Johnson: ...frequent some of the restaurants around the plant? Bud Williams: I brought lunch from home. Sometimes if we didn’t, you go to the cafeteria and at that time the cafeteria was much different than today. You can go up to the cafeteria now and walk right up to the counter and get something to eat. Back then you, you had a line, everyone ate at the cafeteria, so the cafeteria was full. [Inaudible 16:57] want to stand in line so a lot of people brought their, brought their lunch, sit right down on the job and ate. Linda Johnson: [17:10] When you hired in, how much were you making then...? Bud Williams: I... Linda Johnson: ...and before you retired? Bud Williams: I started at $2.55 an hour. Union dues were $5.00 a month. Linda Johnson: [17:24] Did we have a union hall then? Bud Williams: Yes, we still had, union hall is at the same place then as it is now. Linda Johnson: On Michigan Avenue. Bud Williams: Michigan Avenue, Local 602. Male: [17:45] Why did you hire in to Fisher Body? Bud Williams: I was, as I said earlier, I was working for the City of Lansing driving a truck and in the wintertime it got pretty cold out and I wanted to come – we were plowing snow. They call you all time of night, weekends, holidays. Whenever they call you got to go during the winter so I wanted an inside job and that’s when I came over on a Monday and put in an application, Tuesday they called me, and Wednesday I went to work. Doreen Howard: Over the timeframe that you worked here, you’ve met a lot of people. [18:36] Um, can you share any special memories of some of the employees that you worked with and maybe some of the things that you, that you did either during work or after work with any of the friends that you made here? Bud Williams: Oh yes, we, well, we were pretty wild back then. We had a lot, being young, you know, we, nobody was settled. Af-, after work, we would go out after-hour joints or whatever, did whatever you do at after-hour joints. Sometimes we hang out until the next day, spend a lot of our time looking for something to get into. [chuckle] Doreen Howard: Typical young, young men. Bud Williams: Yeah, just typical things that young people do. Doreen Howard: Yeah. Did you ever...? Bud Williams: Uh, minus drugs. We didn’t fool with the drugs back then. Doreen Howard: [19:51] Did you get ever involved with any of the, um, dinners or the retiree parties or, or anything like that during your time? Bud Williams: No. I don’t remember too many retirees’ parties, any of them having any big parties and stuff back then. If they did, I guess I was too busy doing my own thing ‘cause [inaudible 20:18] even notice. Doreen Howard: Um. Bud Williams: I never [inaudible 20:24]. Doreen Howard: Linda? Linda Johnson: [20:25] Bud, do you have a good memory of Fisher Body that will always stick in your mind? Bud Williams: Uh, yes. I, I do. The fact that I got a good inside job, I had good, uh, benefits even though then they weren’t as good as they are today but still they were good, better than what I had before I came and those, those kind of things will always stick right in my mind, you know, being inside where I wanted to be working. Linda Johnson: [21:15] [chuckle] Did you have a favorite job in the plant? Bud Williams: Yes, utility job. I’ve always liked that. Linda Johnson: [21:26] And your worst job was? Bud Williams: Door rubbers. [laughter] Doreen Howard: Doug? Doug Rademacher: [21:36] Why was door rubbers the worst job for you? Bud Williams: Because you had to walk along on your head all day, your head down, during this time you had to walk with your head down and looking underneath the door. You had to put the door rubbers on with a hammer at that time. You hammered from the center of the door all the way around and the top of the door the door rubber was rolled in, that part was good but when you got ready to hammer it in so you’re looking down, laying on your head. Doug Rademacher: [22:14] Didn’t they, didn’t they have plastic nails...? Bud Williams: Yes. Doug Rademacher: ...that you pounded into...? Bud Williams: Yes. Doug Rademacher: ...separate holes? You had to line those up. Bud Williams: Right. Doug Rademacher: You definitely... Bud Williams: And you break one of those then you got to let somebody know. They would very easily pop, brittle, they pop off very easy and once you pop one off you got to tell somebody about it or then the rubber goes down loose and you get water leaks. Doreen Howard: You touched base on benefits. [22:47] Is there any benefit that you think, um, helped you more than, than another during your time here or that you see as, um...? Bud Williams: Uh. Doreen Howard: ...an outstanding benefit that you would have...? Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: ...not maybe gotten somewhere else? Bud Williams: Hospitalization. Doreen Howard: Hospital. Bud Williams: Yes. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. That’s a definite [inaudible 23:13]. Bud Williams: Yes. Hospitalization is definitely a big benefit. Doreen Howard: [23:20] Were you ever able to, um, did your kids have the opportunity to utilize any of the, the benefits...? Bud Williams: Um. Doreen Howard: ...that were offered through General Motors? Bud Williams: Yes, I had one had an opportunity to but she didn’t go through with it. We got the – it was back in ’84 when we had the, uh, General Motors had a program for minority and women to go to college. Doreen Howard: Oh. Bud Williams: And one of my daughters got the, had the opportunity. Well, she took it and she started college but then she dropped out. General Motors was paying for her four years of school. Doreen Howard: Oh. Bud Williams: And... Doreen Howard: That was a nice opportunity. Bud Williams: It didn’t cost me a dime but she started and about two months I think and dropped out. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Linda? Cheryl? Cheryl McQuaid: Bud, I’ve known you since the day I hired I’ve known Bud, um, and you’ve always, um, been a well-liked, well-respected supervisor. [24:40] what would you say were some of the things, um, that you did that made the people like you so much as compared to another supervisor? Bud Williams: Well, one thing, I came off the line and I think if the supervisor come up through the ranks, you know, if you don’t forget where you came from then it makes you a better supervisor. Some, some can forget pretty easily. Some of them if you didn’t come off the line, why you just didn’t know, but I came up through the ranks. And you treat people the way you would like to be treated, everybody like human beings instead of I’m the boss and you’re the worker, do as I say. That’s not the way I looked at it. It’s everybody’s problem, let’s solve it together. And they’ve always worked for me. I never had a problem like, like some people did. Yes, we had our share, yes. Doreen Howard: Doug? Doug Rademacher: [25:52] But when you worked on the line, did you develop brother and sister attitude with your coworkers? Bud Williams: Yes, definitely. Doug Rademacher: [26:02] Can you explain what that feeling is and what it’s like to work in a group of people? Bud Williams: Oh, very, very good. Uh, working, working with others has always been a, a pleasure rather the old cutthroat, backstabbing type. I’ve always found it a lot better to get along with your coworker, work real well with them and the day goes by good, the weeks, even the years, some of them real good and get along with. Even though back then we, we covered each other, each other a lot better than today people seems to, seems to say, well, it’s your job, you do it. But back then we didn’t what you call squeal on people, we didn’t do that. We would not. I imagine it was probably something wrong. I don’t remember if it was right or wrong at that time but we didn’t no matter what it was, we didn’t tell on anyone. A guy walk off the job to go to the bathroom or something, everybody jump in and cover his job and today you won’t have that. He’s gone, he’s gone. Nobody is going to touch it. But we covered for everyone like a blanket. We wouldn’t tell nothing. It’s a lot different from the way we do things than how things are done today. Doreen Howard: [27:49] When, when you hired in it was called Fisher Body at that time? Bud Williams: Yes, Fisher Body. Doreen Howard: And we went through name changes over the time period that you were employed here. Bud Williams: Yes, [inaudible 28:03]. Doreen Howard: [28:03] Um, what was your reaction to some of the changes, the name changes that we went through and can you give me your feelings toward that? Bud Williams: Well, when they first changed it from Fisher Body to BOC we, we, well, I guess we really didn’t have any real bad feelings about it but people just wondered why would they do that. Why would they change it to BOC when we never, never built those particular cars, any car that would begin with those letters BOC. We never had that, never. At that time, we built the, the Olds and the Chevy I think when they started the BOC, the Buick, the Olds and the Chevy. They never had the BOC there. It’s supposed to have been Buick, Olds, and Cadillac but Cadillac was never there. We had the Buick, the Olds. That never happened until they started building the Cadillac across town but I never did. Doreen Howard: Doug? Doug Rademacher: You said you didn’t think much of it when it changed to BOC. [29:25] At the time when the corporation decided to interact or interchange the supervisors from across town to Fisher Body, what was your feeling about that? Bud Williams: Now that was something that we, we really had a problem with was every, every supervisor that came from the other side over this, over here they seemed to got promoted before anybody over here did and we really had a problem with that. Doreen Howard: Hm. Bud Williams: It caused, caused a lot of animosity b-, between the salary people but I guess we got over it but it still happened. We didn’t like it at all. We didn’t want to go over to that side. They didn’t want to come over here because all of us had the seniority and they didn’t. Over there they had the seniority meant 20 years or better. They come over here like five or six years when they come up to one of us, how much seniority do you got? I was hired in ’64, he got hired in ’67, ’68. Well, they didn’t like that ‘cause that knocked them way down on seniority. We didn’t like it because it seemed like they got promoted over us and they did. Doug Rademacher: [30:59] Can I, can I ask was that, did the, um, not only, not only the front line supervisor but did all the superintendents and everything interchange too is that why possibly the...? Bud Williams: Yes. Doug Rademacher: [31:11] Is that why maybe the, the promotions came to those that traveled with the, with the new superintendents...? Bud Williams: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: ...and so forth? Bud Williams: Yes, that’s the way it happened. Doug Rademacher: [31:22] Was that plant-wide? Bud Williams: It was pretty much plant-wide, yes. Doug Rademacher: [31:30] Is that still going on today, that same group now that we’re...? Bud Williams: Well, it’s hard to say it’s the same group because now you don’t know where they’re coming from. Now they come from everywhere, all, even different states and it’s not just from across town. Doug Rademacher: [31:52] Do you recognize supervisors from other states being promoted earlier or is it...? Bud Williams: No, most of them, most of them come with the, with the promotion already. Doreen Howard: [32:10] Bud, when did you retire? Bud Williams: I retired, uh, April 1, 2000. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. [32:20] And then you came back as a contract employee? Bud Williams: Yes, I came back, uh, in July, July 10, 2000, with the intention of working just two weeks doing the, doing the changeover in, in 2000. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. Bud Williams: And I’m still here. Doreen Howard: And you will continue to work until this plant is completely.... Bud Williams: Until this plant is closed. Doreen Howard: Closed. Bud Williams: Yes, complete. Right now they tell me my last day will be November 30. Doreen Howard: Doug? Doug Rademacher: [32:58] Bud, so you retired and then General Motors contacted you at home or did you know you were going to be re-invited back? Bud Williams: They contact me at home and asked me would I come in to work for the two weeks downtown to help them out. Doug Rademacher: And you had only been off since April and now this was the July downtime. Bud Williams: This was the July downtime, yes. Doug Rademacher: [33:25] And did you miss the place already? Bud Williams: Yes, I did. I had missed it already. In fact, I was sort of happy to come back for a little while because I really don’t do a lot on the outside so, yes, I missed it already. Doug Rademacher: [33:44] And your decision to stay until the end here, is that another part of the reason that you stayed this long? Bud Williams: Right. Doug Rademacher: You want to see this thing through. Bud Williams: Yes. Doug Rademacher: [33:55] What’s your feeling about the Fisher plant closing forever? Bud Williams: Oh, I, I feel – when it first was announced that they was closing, you know, it, it hurt but then I realized that actually they’re not closing, all they’re doing is just moving to a different location so it’s better than some of the places where they’re closing right down. Actually, they’ll be going to a new, new home. Yes, we’ll miss this building because this for the last 41 years this was home for me. In fact, I spent more time here than I did at home. So yeah, we didn’t like it but once you look at it on the positive side, you know, they’re just moving across town. Doug Rademacher: [34:52] In that respect, 41 years even though the building, the corporation changed names, what’s this building called to you? Bud Williams: Fisher Body. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: [35:04] And so my question to you is you just said the building is going away but...? Bud Williams: The memories. Doug Rademacher: ...the new building is it really just an extension of Fisher Body? Bud Williams: No. Not, not to me because I won’t be going over there. I know I’m probably not even allowed to go in there. You know, they got so many restrictions, you know, and after working 41 years then they go over there and you’re not, you can’t get in there. It seems like we should be able to walk in when we get ready like, like I do here but I don’t know. Time changes, I’d go over and probably have to be strip-searched to go in. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: You’re probably right. Doreen Howard: [36:00] Um, with the closing here and the new plant starting out, what words of wisdom would you offer to some of the new supervisors that are coming on board at the new plant and what, what would you say to them? Bud Williams: Uh, treat your people right and they’ll take care of you every time. You got a good group, treat them right, you don’t have to worry about the job being done and being done right. They will take care of you. Doreen Howard: [36:46] Is there anything that you can remember at all, something special to you that you want to tell us about that we haven’t covered at all today? Bud Williams: Um, no, I can’t think of any. No. Doreen Howard: No? Okay. Doug Rademacher: Bud, I had one more question. Bud Williams: Okay. Doug Rademacher: [37:14] What’s the most rewarding moment that you were able to impact a coworker’s life here either on the job or at home? Was there a time when a person had a problem and you were able to help? Is there anything that holds in your memory on that? Bud Williams: Uh, yes. There was a, there was a guy that I can’t even remember his name, anyway, there was a guy that used to work for me in the paint shop and this poor guy was on the verge of being fired and he, he did, he had a lot of vacation time and I guess he was sort of on the, I would say he was, he was illiterate and he didn’t, he didn’t know nothing about his vacation time or anything and he would get sick. And he was actually, the guy was actually sick, nobody ever believed him. He’d take so much time off and he would say I’m sick, I’m sick. Until I ran into the guy one day in the streets and he didn’t know I was there and I saw the guy, he was sick. He was out on the sidewalk, he was vomiting and they called an ambulance, the storeowner did, took him to the hospital. And three or four days after that he came back to work and told me he was sick but he would never, you know, bring a doctor’s statement or anything. He’d just work but he didn’t understand. And if I hadn’t seen that, I probably would have gone along with everything everybody else but seeing that then that I took care of the guy and convinced everybody else that the guy actually was sick ‘cause I went to see him over at the hospital. He was in the hospital and he was actually sick and I found out later that the poor guy had cancer. He survived it. He’s a survivor. He’s still living today and this happened back I think was in ’89 when that happened. The guy is still living today and he’s still working there. Doreen Howard: Hm. Bud Williams: Yeah. I was glad I was able, I was coming out of the store when I saw this for some reason that was, that was one of them moments I’ll never forget. But the poor guy would have been fired. You come in, you take them into an interview, he’d just sit there, wouldn’t say a word. Whatever anybody did to him, it was okay. Even [inaudible 40:33] didn’t know anything about him. He, he never would talk. He just let you do whatever but now he, he thanks me every time he see me now. Doug Rademacher: And I thank you too. Linda Johnson: Thank you Bud. Bud Williams: All right. Doreen Howard: Thanks a lot Bud. [throat clearing] Doug Rademacher: It’s been a pleasure interviewing you. Bud Williams: Thank you. /mlc