Donald Perry discusses his career as a production worker, booth cleaner, maintenance oiler, and UAW member at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing MI Michael Fleming: Good morning. , uh, we're with the Fisher or-, Fisher Body Oral History Team. , uh, we're at the Greenhouse today and we're gonna interview, um, would you please state your name? Donald Perry: Uh. Michael Fleming: …for the record and spell your last name. Donald Perry: Donald Perry. P-e-r-r-y. Michael Fleming: And today is Friday, the 27th of January at 10:00. [00:24], uh, Mr. Perry, um, what's your address? Donald Perry: 1530 Waverly Road, Holt, Michigan. Michael Fleming: [00:32] Um, your marital status? Donald Perry: Single. Michael Fleming: [00:35], uh, do you have any children? Donald Perry: No. Michael Fleming: [00:38] Um, wer-, where, where were you born, sir? Donald Perry: Uh, Lansing, Michigan. Michael Fleming: [00:44] And your education? Donald Perry: Um, completed high school, some college. Michael Fleming: [00:49] Military experience? Donald Perry: Four years, United States Air Force. Michael Fleming: Okay, I'm gonna go around the room and introduce all our interviewee, uh... [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: ...people that will be helping interviewing today. Could we please start here… Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Michael Fleming: And I'm Michael Fleming. [01:21] Um, Don, uh, when did you hire in to Fisher Body? Donald Perry: Uh, originally it was the end of May of 1972. I worked 1 week, they laid me off, was laid off a week, called me back, worked 93 days, they laid me off again. I went in the air force then. Michael Fleming: [01:30] Um, the – why did you hire in to Fisher Body? Donald Perry: Uh, my parents were pushing me towards it, I had no desire to work in a factory and they pushed me into it and they had some friends that worked at Fisher Body that were foremens and so I went over and filled out the application and within 2 weeks they called me to come in for a physical. Michael Fleming: [01:53], uh, when you hired in, was it a, a pretty intimidating sight to walk into a factory of that size? Donald Perry: Yes, it was. I walked out and I was just in awe of how big it was and I didn't know where to go. I got lost a couple times. [laughter] Michael Fleming: [02:14], uh, so when, when you, when you went in, what was the first thing that, that you did as far as employment? Donald Perry: Uh… Michael Fleming: What was your [inaudible 02:21]. Donald Perry: ...uh, the first job when they brought me in on second shift, I worked with a guy on the cardboard baler and that was for 1 night and the next night I went to third shift in the booth cleaners. Michael Fleming: [02:34] So you went right from production into booth cleaning? Donald Perry: Uh, I went right off the street into booth cleaning. Michael Fleming: [02:39] Okay, right off the street into booth cleaning. Talk about, talk about what a booth cleaner does, please. Donald Perry: Uh, a booth cleaner maintains the booths after production goes down. We go in and clean the floors, clean the paint hoses, walls, whatever might need cleaning from the paint, getting it off, and get it ready for the next day shift to come in. Then on weekends, we clean the pits. Dig those out, whatever, and keep those flowing good. Michael Fleming: [03:10] Was booth cleaning considered a, a preferable – a desirable job or non-desirable? Donald Perry: Uh, a lot of people thought it was desirable because it was third shift and they figured, you know, they could come in, possibly take a nap, whatever. But once they got in there actually doing the work, they realized how hard it was and a lot of'm didn't care for it then. Michael Fleming: [03:34] Um, when, when you – or what, what are, what is your present job at, a [inaudible 03:42]. Donald Perry: Uh, when I left, uh, Fisher Body when they closed it down, I was a maintenance oiler. Michael Fleming: [03:48] Okay, so you left booth cleaning? Donald Perry: Yeah, I was laid off that and, uh, my group [filtered 03:53] down into oilers for seniority purposes – or leveled off into oilers I should say. Michael Fleming: [04:00] Let's go back to when you hired in. How old were you? When you hired in? Donald Perry: Uh, 19, ex-, excuse me, 18. Michael Fleming: 18? [04:11] Um, was that, uh, something that you regret at this point, do you, do – is this something that you were proud of, the fact that you hired in at 18 and, and it worked out well for ya? Donald Perry: Yeah, it seemed to work out really good. Then I really didn't [inaudible 04:28] I fought my parents tooth and nail but I thank'm every day now that I did do it, everything, 'cause the time I – after I was laid off and went in the service, that's when the early 70s oil embargo came, a lotta people lost their jobs or got laid off. Loss seniority and mine kept going from being on military leave. Michael Fleming: [04:49] Wh-, which branch of the service again? Donald Perry: Air force. Michael Fleming: The air force? [04:53], uh, did you get any special skills while you were in the air force? Donald Perry: Uh, I, I trained as an aircraft electrician and everything and I've pursued skilled trades when I got out but they weren't hiring at the time, so I never pursued it any further. I was happy where I was at. Michael Fleming: Sounds, sounds like an interesting trip. Uh, [05:14] when you returned back to the plant after your layoff, you were still a booth cleaner at that time? Donald Perry: Yeah, they took me right into booth cleaners. It was right before changeover, so they needed the people, so they took me right into booth cleanin'. Michael Fleming: [05:26] Don, what's changeover? Let's talk about that. Donald Perry: That is where they do the model change, um, back then it was anywhere from 6 to 8 weeks, depending on the year and that's when maintenance did a thorough cleaning and everything and they did re-tooling whatever might be needed done for the new model run for the next year and my particular job, we did thorough cleanings of the paint booths and arc booths, the welding booths, whatever. Michael Fleming: [05:53] Talk about how long, at that time a, uh, changeover would take versus the later years and how long the length of time changeovers were taking. Donald Perry: Uh, then they averaged anywhere from like say 6 to 8 weeks, but at one point I believe it was in '78, when we moved up to the new paint department, it was off for almost 4 months and today, they average anywhere from 2 to 3 hours. Michael Fleming: A drastic change then… Donald Perry: Yeah. Michael Fleming: …in the way… Donald Perry: Change. Michael Fleming: …in the way that we do business. Donald Perry: Yes sir. Michael Fleming: [06:27] Uh, would you say it's for the better or do you think it's, um, something that's not as, uh, a good of a changeover period? Donald Perry: Uh, in one aspect I think it's for the better but, yet, two, I think it's not good 'cause a lotta a the maintaining of the equipment isn't getting done like it needs to be done. Michael Fleming: Uh, Cheryl McQuaid. Cheryl McQuaid: [06:48] Um, Mr. Perry, you were third shift booth cleaner and you did your deep cleaning during changeovers, so you worked all the changeovers? Donald Perry: Yeah. I had one changeover off in the 30-something years I've been there. We worked in 7 days a week during the changeovers. Cheryl McQuaid: [07:06] How much different was the deep cleaning compared to just the everyday cleaning? Donald Perry: A lot, 'cause you ended up climbing into the air ducts and the size of the booths you'd have to hand scrape the paint off them and everything. [Inaudible 07:19] more get in with putty knives and scrape them out good. Cheryl McQuaid: [07:26] And what is the size of a pit? Donald Perry: Uh. Cheryl McQuaid: I'm sure they must vary in size, but… Donald Perry: The original ones when I hired in was about, they had them in stages, they were usually about 4 to 5 foot deep, anywhere from 4 to 5 foot square but the ones they have now were like 25 to 30 foot deep, probably 20 to 30 foot square and you actually had to go right in and stand in the sludge and stuff to start digging them out or washing down, whatever. Cheryl McQuaid: [07:57] When you first hired in and it's different… Donald Perry: Well then, even now, I guess they do it differently but back then you'd have to climb right in. That was one a the first instances I had of a memory was, I was 19, all gung-ho, I could jump in and start right doing it and everything and I sunk into the sludge up to my waist almost… Cheryl McQuaid: [laughter] Donald Perry: …got my boots stuck. I had to get a guy on each arm and pull me right out to get me out. Cheryl McQuaid: [laughter] Michael Fleming: Oh man. Donald Perry: They were just laughing their butts off. Michael Fleming: I bet. Cheryl McQuaid: I bet it was something they'd seen before. Donald Perry: Yeah, yeah. They knew what was coming and everything. They just let me do it. Cheryl McQuaid: [08:32] As kind of a prank? Donald Perry: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh. [laughter] Donald Perry: And everything. My – they had to dig my boots outta the sludge because they stayed in and I didn't, so. Cheryl McQuaid: [08:39] So what kind of safety training did you get for that job? Donald Perry: Back then they didn't have no safety training at all. It wasn't until the 3 booth cleaners got killed that they initiated the safety training process and I was there in the plant the night that happened. Cheryl McQuaid: [08:57] Can you talk to us about that? Donald Perry: Uh, I had just went into oiler group about 3 months prior to that and they had recalled me back to booth cleaning and I turned'm down and I was in Body Shop doing my job and I had my radio on and I heard the foreman had passed away, the call on the radio that he needed help. So I took off, went up there and when I got up there they had him, all 3, out of the pit laying on the floor doing CPR and whatnot on'm. And I just stood around. That's all we could do 'cause the EMS crew was there by then, and we just stood around and watched them and then they took'm all out on a gurney and probably an hour later we had been told they had all passed away. Cheryl McQuaid: [09:40] So at – while you were watching that, did you ever think, my goodness, I've been working down there. Donald Perry: Actually, that come across my mind first thing because the last time that pit they'd died in was cleaned myself and the foreman that died had been the ones to clean it. And that just freaked me right out. If I'd a went back into booth cleaning, I'd a been the one there doing it with them. Cheryl McQuaid: [10:06] Did – before that happened, did you ever think that – did, did the – were there ever any fumes that you were curious about or? Donald Perry: Just your normal paint fumes like you paint in your house and stuff and we never gave it any thought. We just got in, did the job, and got out and never thought twice about it and stuff and from what I was told, uh, what happened that night is – they had shut the circulation pumps off and, uh, paint had crusted over and the fumes had built up in it and one of'm stepped into it and the fumes come up and knocked him out and then they drowned into the sludge. Then the foreman, he had seen it and he yelled in – down to get help, and he went down in to help'm out and he got overcome by the fumes too and passed out. Cheryl McQuaid: [10:54] So you knew all these gentleman? Donald Perry: Yeah. They were all good friends. Dick Claeys, the first one that passed away, he was one of the first people I worked with when I was in booth cleaning and Bob Ward, the foreman, he was my foreman when I was in it, booth cleaners, and Roger Tackett, the third one, he was, uh, supplementary to come in for changeover to help'm. He was a production person who supplemented in for changeover to help and I bowled with him, so he was a good friend too. Cheryl McQuaid: [11:27] So you – at this point you were an oiler though? Donald Perry: Yeah, I was an oiler for about 3, 3 or 4 months at the time that happened. It was a rough go of it. It was a hard time on everybody. Michael Fleming: Um, Mike Fleming, [11:42], uh, Don, um, throughout all this, um, you, you – the, the end result after that tragic accident, was there any safety training that they implemented that you know of or this is [inaudible 11:57] confined spaces if I'm not correct… Donald Perry: Yes. Michael Fleming: …did they do anything to, to help bring awareness about that? Donald Perry: Uh, after OSHA had come in and investigated it, they set up a policy for training everybody for confined space and safety equipment to wear and all that when you go in the pit and everything. [throat clearing] Donald Perry: And even I, in my oiler job, I had to have training for it because there was other areas we went in in the plant for greasing our equipment that we had to get in pits and whatnot. So everybody in the plant skill trades, maintenance, everybody was then started getting trained on safety – confined space entry and whatnot. Michael Fleming: [12:39] Don, have you ever heard the term "indirect labor" or a group of individuals that are not directly tied to working on the automobile? Donald Perry: Uh, yeah. Michael Fleming: Um, and, and I'm sure you've been referred to as that as an oiler? Donald Perry: Yeah. Michael Fleming: How do you feel about that? What – what is your take on that as far as the value that you add to the product and, and how it makes you feel that your someone thinks that you're not? Um… Donald Perry: Well we've been called bottom of the barrel, low man on the totem pole, all such a different terminology but I figure the job I do was needed to keep the equipment running or to keep the booths clean, otherwise production wouldn't be able to run 'cause everything would be building up and everything. I just took it in stride. I just figured I was one of the lucky ones that had, uh, a supposed easy job that some of'm thought and everything, but – like again – once they got in and seen what I actually did do, they didn't want no part of it. So I felt lucky because I was pretty much my own boss. I could come and go as I wished. If I needed a break, I'd take it and everything. So I felt fortunate to be in the department I was in. Michael Fleming: [13:52] The booth cleaners themselves, um, you see a lot of high seniority people come into that group and like you say, once they realize what they really have to do, they get out as fast as they can. Is that, is that something that you've seen? Donald Perry: Yeah, a lot of them do but a lot of them were farmers too, so they come in and hopefully ta – be able to take a nap so they can get out and do their job and then go home and plow their fields or whatever too. Michael Fleming: So it was… Donald Perry: [A lotta 14:18] reason that a lot of'm comin' in… Michael Fleming: …it was a job for – of convenience for some? Donald Perry: Yeah, yeah exactly. Michael Fleming: [14:31] Um, did you, um, when you came in – we'll go back to when you came in. Why don't we just talk about the oiling job? Who broke you in as an oiler? How, how – what happened? Donald Perry: Uh, uh, I got reduced out of booth cleaning and I, uh, leveled off into oilers, and the guy that broke me in was named Ken [Spiegel 14:50], he was about 5 years lower seniority than I was and he broke me in along with his partner he was working with at the time and showed me the gist of the job for about a week and then me and his old partner, Joe Garza, was on our own. Back then, we – each – there was 4 of us on third shift and we each, 2 of us had each had a line and I did what they called s-, A line back then, which is C-Body Shop now. We went – started in the Body Shop, went through Paint and Trim, did it all over a month period of time. They'd break it off into certain jobs certain days and we greased it all, but as the time went by, they got more oilers in the group and we was all, uh, put into a certain department that covers that specific area. Michael Fleming: [15:41] Let's, let's talk about – now you, you, you're usin' grease guns and oil cans and all types of things to keep, uh, machinery lubricated. What, what did you – what else did you do with those things? Is – was there any type of, uh, initiation into that group? Was there anything that you all did for fun to one another or someone that didn't know any better? Uh, talk about some of those things that, that possibly [could've happened 16:04]. Donald Perry: Uh, well, one instance that happened to me was we had a pump that we was pumpin' oil in a bottle – an air bottle they called it for a cylinder. I was usin' the pump and the hose blew, I got oil sprayed all over me and people kinda laughed about that. But as far as us doing fun things to other ones, we pretty much didn't do that in our group 'cause it could be hazardous at times with different chemicals and whatnot. We used the oils and hydraulic oils, different types a greases we had to use and stuff, so we was pretty diligent on that, pulling pranks on other ones like that with that stuff. Michael Fleming: Okay. So now you, you talked about hydraulics. Now hydraulics are, are – some of'm are heated. Donald Perry: Yeah. Michael Fleming: [16:57] Um, and I'm sure the one that happened to you, had you seen anybody else have a hydraulic incident that was, um, probably not a very good thing to see, I'm sure? Donald Perry: Uh, personally, I'd never seen one happen but a friend a mine told me about one this morning, in fact, where a line busted and sprayed a guy and it crystallized his shirt. Michael Fleming: [17:17] Crystallized his shirt? Donald Perry: Yeah. It was a hot hydraulic and when it hit him, he said he had to rip his shirt off and run to the hospital but she said it crystallized his shirt. She was tellin' me that this morning at the [inaudible 17:28] office. Michael Fleming: [17:30] How much pressure are some of those lines under about? Do you have any idea? Donald Perry: Oh, some of'm depending on what they were operating could be up to a 100 PSIs, pounds per square inch. Michael Fleming: [17:42] That's quite a bit a pressure isn't it? Donald Perry: Yeah, it is. Michael Fleming: Thanks. Um. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. I'm a – I'm just amazed that you hired in right to the third shift. Um… Donald Perry: That is a rarity to have that happen, right into put in maintenance off of the street. Cheryl McQuaid: [18:12] …I worked day shift, I worked second shift. I never spent any time on third shift and it's gotta be so much different than the day shift and the second shift. Could you tell me a little bit about what's going on in the plant on second shift. Do ya see any animals? Donald Perry: Uh, yeah, one area we went to over in Building 22 where the trash compactors and stuff were, we went in there one night to fill up the hydraulics and I looked down and there was like a foot-and-a-half rat down in the pit. [laughter] Donald Perry: And let me tell ya, I left that place right now. [laughter] Donald Perry: And we seen raccoons in the plant, a – stray cats have come in. They come in looking for food and whatnot and possums now and then and everything, but we had a deer come in one night, I believe. I, I heard about it, but I didn't see it. They said there was a deer in there one night. Yeah, we had all kinds a weird events going on during the night. Marilyn Coulter: [19:06] Marilyn Coulter. What time did your shift start? [throat clearing] Donald Perry: Uh, when I first hired in, it was 11 to 7:30 then a few years down the road they switched it 10 to 6:30 a.m. and it went different times. Just whatever the need might be. Then weekends a lotta times they'd bring us in at second shift 3 to 11:30. Marilyn Coulter: [19:26] So now, you, when you started at 11, you know, the line was still running, what did you do prior to… Donald Perry: Well that was… Marilyn Coulter: [inaudible 19:38]? Donald Perry: …the shock to me when I first hired in. So I'd come in and go see the boss and everything and then everybody disappeared and I had no idea where they were, I just sat there by the old [glaze booths then 19:51] and sat there for 3 hours not knowing what to do, where to go or anything and then all of a sudden everybody would reappear... [laughter] Donald Perry: …and everything and I said wait, something ain't right, so, uh, they finally got me in the groove of it and told me that's when they go take their naps or whatever and everything. They all had a little specific area they went and hid in and stuff. So I got to where I'd nap now and then but not often. I'd go out and started meeting people and talkin' to'm and exploring the plant and finding, you know, seein' different areas of what they do and how they build the cars and everything. Marilyn Coulter: [20:28] Now given the factor that you came into that department right off the street, um, and that was an odd thing to happen, that normally did not happen? Donald Perry: Back then it was, yes, 'cause normally they brought ya in right to production. Marilyn Coulter: [20:46] And, and, but that being the case, how did the fellows treat you knowin' you came right in off the street into what was considered – even though it was a nasty job – it was a preferred job? Donald Perry: Most of'm were pretty supportive of me. We had a few that kinda gave me the cold shoulder at first but they got over it eventually and everything. I got more flack mostly from production people… [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Donald Perry: ...at that time, you know, how'd you get so lucky to hire right in off the street into something like that. Marilyn Coulter: [21:11] Now – I'm – and I shouldn't – I just wanna take you back a little bit a-, actually quite a bit. You said that your parents had you come in here. If you were in the community – I mean – what did – had – did you know anything about the plant prior to coming in? Donald Perry: My father worked at Oldsmobile in what was now known as the chassis side, and he worked swing shift back then like 6 weeks on days, 6 weeks on second, 6 weeks on third and just by his attitude when he'd come home, how tired he was, grouchy sometimes and everything, I didn't want no part of it. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [21:52] So that was just the way you didn't like the way it seemed like it made him… Donald Perry: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: …like the type of person… Donald Perry: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: …it made him. Donald Perry: Yeah. And far as what they did in the factory and all that, I had no knowledge of that whatsoever. Marilyn Coulter: [22:00] All you thought was it made him a tired, grumpy person? Donald Perry: Yeah and that they made cars. That's all I knew about. Marilyn Coulter: And that's all you knew. So when you came into that… Donald Perry: Yeah. And then when I walked in and seen the process of it, even 34 years later, I'm still fascinated watching it progress starting from pieces of metal into what they make. Marilyn Coulter: [22:22] So, um, being fascinated by that and then knowing the importance of what it is that you do because you help the [wheel to run 22:29], right? Donald Perry: Yes ma'am, I do. Marilyn Coulter: [22:35] Keepin' it goin', um, what was the sizes of the teams that you worked in? [Inaudible]. Donald Perry: When I was a booth cleaner – is – there was probably back in the beginning 40 to 50 people in the group and we were in teams of like 4 to 5 per booth. Marilyn Coulter: [22:51] Now were, were, were maintenance personnel, were they primarily all men or were there woman in [inaudible]? Donald Perry: Back then they were strictly men and, um, the women didn't start coming in ta even skilled trades until probably the mid 80s. Marilyn Coulter: [23:06] All right. And now are there, are there women booth cleaners? Donald Perry: Uh, to my knowledge, there's still not, no ladies – or women in booth cleanin'. Marilyn Coulter: [23:14] And are there any female oilers? Donald Perry: No. Marilyn Coulter: [23:17] No. And do you think that's because it's – why do you think that is? Donald Perry: I, truthfully, I don't know if anybody's – if any woman's ever put in for the job or not or if it's just some restriction they might have of not allowing woman because of the type a work. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Donald Perry; Because there is a lot of climbing and digging and heavy lifting and whatnot involved in it. So I don't if that plays a part in it or what it might be. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. [23:42] Now because you work with toxic chemicals and things like that and, do you guys have to take any kinda special physicals every now and then [inaudible]? Donald Perry: Yeah, they give us yearly physicals. We do the breath test and hearing test, all that good stuff, every year. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Donald Perry: And they check everything out and they do chest x-rays and all that on ya to make sure everything's [needs 24:07] to be where it is. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. So okay. Michael Fleming: [24:13] Don, you did mention the fact that you were laid off and went into the service. Have you ever been in a strike when, when the plant was on strike? Donald Perry: Uh, the first one we were on I believe was in the late 70s, early 80s. I was on Body Shop production then. We walked off the line at midnight and we were back the next morning, or the day shift was back the next morning. Then, uh, probably 3 contracts ago, I believe, we went out locally for 3 days and then went back. Michael Fleming: [24:54] Okay. Um, the supervisors, you mentioned that you pretty much, um, supervised yourself and knew what you had to do – so did you have a good supervisor when you did have to interact? Donald Perry: Um, most of'm overall, the worst ones I had was when I was on production but maintenance supervisors were fantastic. Booth cleaners were really good and then, once I went into oilers, I hate to say it but most of'm didn't have no idea what we did. We had maintenance – skills trade supervisors, so they just gave us our preventative maintenance sheets every month and said you know what to do, go do it. So we went out and did our job and turned'm in when we were done. Michael Fleming: Uh, Jerri Smith. Jerri Smith: [25:38] Yeah, Don, you were saying that you got 34 years in. Do you plan on going out to the new plant? Donald Smith: Yes, I – of right now, I'm scheduled to go on the [material line 25:46] third shift and I plan on being there probably until I'm 55 and then I plan on retiring. Cheryl McQuaid: [25:58] Cheryl McQuaid. Um, you mentioned when you first... [throat clearing] Cheryl McQuaid: ...went into the oiler group, you would sit for about 3 hours… Donald Perry: Well that was in booth cleaners. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh, that boo – booth cleaners? Donald Perry; Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Because you couldn't do anything while production was running? Donald Perry: No, not while production was running. Cheryl McQuaid: And you mentioned that the other people on your team would disappear... Donald Perry: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: ...and come to find out they were in little sleeping nooks and… Donald Perry: Some were, some were just out visiting, doing other things. Cheryl McQuaid: [26:25] Where did they go to sleep at? Donald Perry: Uh, different areas. Some went on top of the booths. Some went in – on top of the fake ceilings, false ceilings I believe they called'm. Some just went in a corner and found a chair and sit in and nodded out. Just wherever they could find a spot. Michael Fleming: [26:58] Uh, Don, there was, um, a lot of, uh, activities that go on around the plant and one of'm was, they always had, uh, high school football games. Um, did you ever get a chance to watch any of those football games or did you know any folks that went up and watched those? Donald Perry: Yeah I must confess I did a couple times went up on the roof and watched'm. [laughter] Michael Fleming: [27:08] So excuse me, explain... [throat clearing] Michael Fleming: ...I don't know if we heard that or not. You went where to watch them? And explain about that a little bit. Donald Perry: Uh, well at one point, they had the big double doors when they built the new paint department open, we could sit there and watch'm but other times I went up on top of the roof and watched them for 15, 20 minutes, see who was winnin'. Michael Fleming: [27:29] Were there are other people there? Donald Perry: Oh yeah, there was lots of production people, trades people. Production people would come up on their breaks and check'm out and then trades people would come up every now and then and watch'm. Michael Fleming: [27:40] Did they have popcorn and pop 'n stuff? Donald Perry: Not unless you brought it yourself. [laughter] Michael Fleming: Okay. [laughter] Donald Perry: Even caught a couple foremans up there one day watchin'm. Michael Fleming: Did ya? That was a pretty good deal that, uh, you go up and get – it's a great vantage point from up there… Donald Perry: Yes it is. Michael Fleming: …to see it. Yeah. Donald Perry: A birds eye view of it. Michael Fleming: [27:56] Yeah. Any other things that you know of that went on in there that, uh, only the, uh, what we would call indirect labor folks would know about and production people didn't. Were there things that went on inside there that we didn't know anything about? Donald Perry: Uh, about the only thing I'm aware of is the areas the production people were not aware were in the plant 'cause I could take people out there and get'm lost under the ovens or out on the catwalks whatever and it'd be hard for'm to find their way back. Michael Fleming: Okay. All right. Donald Perry: Because there was a lot of area where the conveyors went that they had no idea were there... Michael Fleming: Mm-hm. Donald Perry: …and everything, but as far as any activity-type stuff, I can't recall any that they might have that the production people weren't aware of. Michael Fleming: [28:46] Wh – did the oilers combine with any other group or did they stay to themselves when they came to having, um, dinners, uh, celebrations of birthdays, of holidays, be it Christmas or Easter? Donald Perry: Uh, normally we, on third shift, we got with the trades people and had just one big dinner or whatever. Michael Fleming: [29:08] Talk about those dinners when you first came in until the time you got relieved. Did they get better? Did they get worse? Were there more people involved at a certain point? Donald Perry: Well actually I believe they got better because when I first hired in, I don't recall them ever having'm. And once I – we moved up into the new paint department and stuff, I noticed they started havin'm more and a few times I actually set'm up myself. They put me in charge of'm and everything, so they actually got better over time. Michael Fleming: [29:36] So if you were, um, coordinating the dinners, what, what types of dinners did you coor – what did you, what did you… Donald Perry: Uh, we had birthday dinners. One guy [throat clearing], excuse me. One trades guy [throat clearing], excuse me, one guy turned 50, so we threw'm a surprise birthday party and, uh, we usually had everybody bring in a dish to pass and then we would, uh, everybody'd chip in a certain amount a money for the meat. We'd have ham or turkey, whatever, and, uh, it turned out pretty good. Michael Fleming: [30:12] Okay. How about benefits? Like for someone that might have had a house fire, someone that might've had, uh, someone sick in their family? How about – did you have any of those where people collected money to help anybody? Donald Perry: Yeah. One instance was Mike [Quinterri 30:26], he was an electrician in Underbody, he got injured at work and, uh, it was pretty bad. He had his ear just about ripped off and some other injuries and myself and Carl [May 30:39], another oiler and, uh, John Anthony, the benefits rep, we got together and, uh, set up a benefit dinner for him. Had hotdogs and potato salad and that type a thing. We ended up raisin', between the 3 dinners we threw, about $6000 for'm. Michael Fleming: Excellent. Donald Perry: We took it over and gave him. He was in tears when he seen it. Michael Fleming: [31:02] Here's the thing, did you – that, that was somethin' that was pretty common in there, wasn't it? Donald Perry: Yes, it was. Michael Fleming: [31:07] Uh, would you say that was part of the culture of Fisher Body, the way that the family felt of each other in there [inaudible], or they thought each other as a family? Donald Perry: Yeah, I really do, 'cause, uh, it was like walking in and havin' a second family 'cause everybody would watch out for everybody. If you needed help on your job, if someone could, they'd run over to help ya and, uh, like you say, if someone got injured, it was like the whole plant was there to back'm up and support'm through their recovery. Marilyn Coulter: [31:41] Marilyn Coulter. Um, Mike, you said – I mean… [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: [31:46] Excuse me, Don, you said that, um, Mike Quinterri had his ear ripped off – did, did this happen at home? Did it happen in the plant? What happened? Donald Perry: Um, no, it happened in C-Underbody. He – one a the presses they had then went and broke down. He went up above it ta see what the problem was, and from my understanding, he rech in with a stick to hit a switch to trigger it to go again and the stick got called – caught into something and pulled him right into the press and pulled him down and threw him back out onto the catwalk when it come up, and it ripped his ear off. It was still hanging on but it ripped it partially off and did some other injuries. He broke his jaw, I believe, and had some other injuries. But one a the production people below the catwalk heard someone [throat clearing], excuse me – heard a noise and looked up and blood was dripping down onto the floor by his work station [throat clearing] and that's when they, uh, got EMTs out there and took – rushed him down to medical and took him to St. Lawrence Hospital and we went up and seen him afterwards and he was in critical condition and, uh, he recovered from it very well. Michael Fleming: [33:01] Mike Fleming. Uh, what's an EMT? Donald Perry: Uh, emergency medical technician. Michael Fleming: [33:07] We have those throughout the plant do we? Donald Perry: Uh, then we didn't. It was, uh, back then it was mostly plant security and whatever foreman or maintenance person might be around at the time. But then they formed a ERT group, which is emergency response team, and they go on all emergency calls now. Marilyn Coulter: [33:30] No-, Marilyn Coulter. Now – is that team made up of – who's that team made up of? Or do you know? Donald Perry: Uh, they have production people, maintenance people, uh, foremans, uh, security guards, whoever wants to volunteer and go through the training for it. Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Cheryl McQuaid: [33:47] Cheryl McQuaid. You mentioned that for the benefit dinner for Mike Quinterri you raised like $6000? That's quite the benefit dinner. You can tell us a little bit about that and how you were able to raise that much money? Donald Perry: Yeah, uh, originally, when we first started to do it, there were several of us that planned it and we had it up in Paint Department and we, uh, John Anthony got some polish dogs, hotdogs, whatnot, donated them. We had people donate different dishes to pass and we took donations for it and I believe that time we raised about $2500 at that particular dinner and then we got wind that the Body Shop people were upset 'cause we had it in Paint 'cause Mike worked in Body Shop, so we organized another one for Body Shop and I believe on that one we raised another 1500 to 2000 and then Trim people were upset because we were so far away from them so we ended up organizing another one for Trim Department and raised another couple thousand for that and we put it all – and pooled it all together and too it over to'm at home. And him and his wife just busted out in tears they were so shocked by it. But that, to me, that's part of what the GM people are all about. When someone is down and out, we all get together and help'm out. Cheryl McQuaid: [35:11] Um, Cheryl McQuaid still. I'm sorry, you, uh, you touched on the environmental conditions of the third shift and I guess I'd like you to – I, I never worked third shift. Third shift, whenever I went in there and the lights were off, the place was extremely eerie to me. And I guess I'd like to know what it was like hiring right in on the third shift and I'm sure you were able to get used to it but it's still a diff-, different than any – anything else that any of us have experienced. If you could tell us a little bit more about that shift. Donald Perry: Uh, yeah, when I first hired in, uh, the setup of the plant was totally different than what it is now, but when production went home, it got really quiet and nobody around and then all of a sudden the workers appear. But back then I was real nervous about venturing out too far so I pretty much stayed in my area but as the time went over, I started venturing out more and everything and, uh, got to know the place and once production went home, about all you heard was air leaks and fans goin' or the heater kickin' on, whatever. And it's real eerie at first hearing all these strange noises you aren't used to and everything and I'd always jump around and look and see what was behind me or somethin'. But you grow to get used to it and everything and then when you don't hear it, you know somethin's wrong because it's spose to be a noise there, and it's not. So you start looking for trouble, problems or something to correct. Michael Fleming: [36:56] Mike Fleming, Don, um, when you, um, you got 34 years in here and there's been an awful lotta name changes over there like BOC, LCA, um, and I don't know what else had been changed to, what, what do you think about the name changes that were in the plant? Donald Perry: Well, when I hired in, it was, uh, called Fisher Body and as you say, it changed from that, after about 10 years it went to BOC, which was Buick-Olds-Cadillac. And then from that it went ta LCA, which was Lansing Car Assembly, and to me with all the name changes, it's still Fisher Body. It always will be even once they tear the building down, it's still gonna be Fisher Body in my memories. Marilyn Coulter: [37:56] Mm. Uh, Marilyn Coulter. I just wanted to go right back for a second to the building. Was there ever a time in there – I know we had power outages and things like that – were you – did you – were you ever in the building during those and...? Donald Perry: Uh, there was a couple times we were there when the power went out but the most significant power outage was when they had the East Coast power grid go down. I wasn't there when it happened but we got called into work that night and at the gate they gave us flashlights to use to see our way through and we got in there and it was dead silent. Nothing. No lights. No air anything, and that was real eerie and stuff. We made our way inta – to get inta our coveralls and we went down to the maintenance office and they guided us out to the parking lot by the powerhouse and we sat there for pretty much the whole night 'cause they thought they'd be getting power back. They didn't realize how significant of a power outage it was and, uh, we stayed there the whole night out in the parking lot. Thank goodness it was summer. [laughter] Donald Perry: And, uh, went home the next morning and the second night they had told us to come back in. We went in and same thing, went and sit out in the parking lot. Other – the – thing different, we didn't change into our work clothes. We just went out and sat out in the parking lot and the third night we come in and they let us go home finally at lunch and I believe the day after that's when the power come back on. Marilyn Coulter: [39:20] Mm. But – now speaking of lunch, third shift, um, how did you have your lunch and your breaks? I mean was the cafeteria open? What did you do for lunch? Donald Perry: When I first hired in, they had a little, uh, cafeteria set up in the main cafeteria that whatever production was left over from production they'd put in there for us. And they had a lady, Cheryl [Trayer 39:43] who ran that for us and everything. So we had a hot meal then. Then they had our wagons that'd come around on break times with snacks and pop and whatnot on it, so I was able to get stuff off that. But as time went on, they did away with that and put in vending machines, so that was about all we had ta get our lunch out of if we didn't bring somethin' in for ourselves. Marilyn Coulter: [40:07]So now, Mike, just back up. So now first of all, what was wagon and they had wagons for you on third shift? Donald Perry: Uh, well production-wise, 'cause their last wagon come around about our break time. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Donald Perry: And a wagon was a little cart that had – they had, uh, trays on'm with ice and pop on'm and Twinkies, cupcakes, that type a thing on it. Chips, whatever you might want for a snack. And they'd come around different times of the night and in the morning when about time we'd go home is when the morning one would, one would come out for production. Marilyn Coulter: [40:38] And so for your lunchtime, for a period of time you had a small cafeteria that you ate whatever was on the menu for that day from the cafeteria and now, do I understand you right, where that went away and you guys just had vending machines? Donald Perry: Yeah, eventually that went away. They closed it down and… Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Donald Perry: …they, uh, tried keepin' the, uh, main cafeteria open for production up until 1:00, so third shift could at least get up there and try to get a burger or somethin'. I guess the response from the third shift people were so low they ended up closin' it up at 11. So we were then put to the vending machines if we wanted something to eat. Marilyn Coulter: Oh, or you had to bring your own. Donald Perry: Or bring our own lunch in. Marilyn Coulter: [41:21] Oh. So now did you – were you able to get a longer lunch hour if you had to bring your own in? Or was it the same? Donald Perry: No, it was the same, 3 to 3:30 was our lunch break. Marilyn Coulter: [42:34] Okay. Now, um, you went in from booth cleaning to oilers and you initially hired in in what year? Donald Perry: Uh, 1972. Marilyn Coulter: In '72. So at that time, that's when both lines were still together. How did or did it not affect you having the, the lines change when they went from being both on the same floor to separate floors. Did that change your job? How did it affect what you did? Donald Perry: Uh, about the only way it changed is we just had to do more walking and then that's when they brought more guys into our group so they split us up and so many guys did one line and so many guys did the other line... Marilyn Coulter: Mm. Donald Perry: ...and everything, but we just did a lot more walkin' then. Marilyn Coulter: [42:14] And, um, supervisors. You said that, um, some of'm didn't know what you did, um, a couple things. What made a good supervisor, what made a bad supervisor for you? And how did it change as we got closer to the end of our time here? Donald Perry: Uh, a good supervisor was one that says or told me they knew I did my work and they trusted me as doing it and, uh, just told me to go out on my own because they knew it'd get done. A bad supervisor to me was one that some a the other guys might be screwing off not doing their work, let'm get away with it and then I would have to go back or me or some a the other guys and do their job to keep the line runnin' and that's happened on more than one occasion, sad to say. Marilyn Coulter: [43:10] Hm. So, um, how has the supervisor techniques changed or are they pretty much the same standard? Donald Perry: Uh, I'd say they're pretty much the same 'cause some of'm get in there and know what the boss... [throat clearing] Donald Perry: ...likes or whatever and talks to'm, sports or whatever they might be interested in and gets in buddy-buddy with'm and gets away with a lot more than some of us do. [coughing] Michael Fleming: [43:35] Um, Don, I wanna talk to you about – we're talkin' third shift here – the wages. When you hired in, your, your wages that you made shift premium and hours. You did an awful lotta hours. Talk about that – could you talk about that for us? Donald Perry: Uh, yeah, when I hired in, in '72, my base rate was $5.25 an hour, I believe. I still have my paycheck stub at home. Michael Fleming: Really. Donald Perry: And shift premium on third shift, we got 10% shift premium and second shift we got 5%. And hours back then, we did a lot of 6 days and a few 7 days and then changeover time we did 7 days straight through however long it might be. And at one point when we got the 4-month shutdown, I worked 68 days straight without a day off and I was finally setting in the parking lot waitin' to go in and one a my friends come up and looks and said, "Get the heck outta here. Go home." So I says, okay, pulled my finger, and says okay and I'm gone. [laughter] Michael Fleming: [laughter] Donald Perry: And I went home and took a night off and I called my boss to let him know I wasn't coming in. He says I wondered when you was finally gonna take a day off. Michael Fleming: [44:47] So you went from $5.25 in '72 to what you [inaudible] – what is it now? Donald Perry: Uh, I believe it's $27 something an hour right now. Michael Fleming: At the height, uh, like you said, you did 68 hours straight, but at the height of what we – what you would consider, um, wages and earnings, what was the most that you ever made in 1 year at Fisher Body. Donald Perry: Uh, oh, I believe it was abou – about 78,000 and I had taken my vacation time tha – that year and everything too. Michael Fleming: [45:22] That was with vacations that you made that [inaudible]. Donald Perry: Yeah, taking time off for vacations and stuff. Michael Fleming: [45:28] So what, what, what would be one a your, um, best-bargained benefits that the UAW bargained for you? Uh, other than obviously wages, um, what would be one of them? Donald Perry: Uh, I believe healthcare, prescription coverage, eye coverage, that type a thing, dental, 'cause I see a lot of people when I go to get a prescription and stuff forking out $200 to $300 for 1 or 2 prescriptions and I'm payin' $10 for them, that really makes you wake up and appreciate that benefit as being negotiated for us. Michael Fleming: [46:05] Mm-hm. Do you view, uh, your co-workers as your brothers and sisters? Donald Perry: Uh, for the most part, yeah, 'cause we all get along really good and everything and I do view'm that way, they're like part a my family. Michael Fleming: [46:20] Any particular... [coughing] Michael Fleming: ...long-lasting relationships or friendships that you've taken outside of the plant since you worked there? Donald Perry: Yeah, I have my friend, Carol Cooper, we met in early 80s and she's my best friend right now. So we've known each other about 25 years. A couple a the booth cleaners I've worked with early on, I met'm and we're still friends 25, 30 years later. Hang out and do a lot together. Michael Fleming: [46:47] Is there any groups of people that you particularly hang with other than the oilers or inside of the oilers or that may play instruments, do Bible studies, or any kind of focus group activity inside a the plant? Donald Perry: No, I never – bein' on third shift, we really didn't have a lot of that. I went around and talked to a lot of production people but none a the ones I knew on production were really involved in anything like that – or got into. Michael Fleming: [47:19] Okay. Um, we had a smoking policy or a ban on smoking inside a the plant and then they went to these little rooms or whatnot, if you are – or not – or are not a smoker, did it have any impact on you? Donald Perry: Well, I'm not a smoker, so that, that aspect didn't really affect me. But I think it was unfair that they banned it in the plant because a the people that did smoke, that they [inaudible 47:44] have the right to do it. But at the same time, when they banned it, I thought it was kind of ironic because they had all the smoke comin' from the weld guns and robots in Body Shop and to me that would be more hazardous to your health than what smoke from cigarettes and stuff would do. Michael Fleming: [48:01] Um, have you ever participated within your local union? Donald Perry: Uh, a few times, yeah. Interview: [48:10] Uh, would you like to elaborate on some a the things you've done? Donald Perry: Uh, well, I went, uh, worked at the union picnic a couple times and gone to meetings here and there and stuff. Again, working third shift, it was hard to get the time schedule straight with the times they had stuff scheduled and stuff for my sleeping and whatnot. Interview: [48:28] Do you vote for your leadership? Donald Perry: Yes, I did. I vote every election. Michael Fleming: [48:39] Um, let's see. How about you – TAP – you know a TAP is a tuition assistance program that's offered as a benefit. Have you or any of your family members had an opportunity to use any of it? Donald Perry: Yeah, actually I have. I went, uh, to Lansing Community College and took massage therapy classes. So now I'm a massage therapist on the side. [laughter] Michael Fleming: Well, Don, we want to have you elaborate on that... [laughter] Michael Fleming: ...and I'm gonna start with Jerri Smith and we'll go around the room. [throat clearing] Jerri Smith: [49:09] I was gonna say, when this, uh, interview's over could we get some samples of the massage therapy? [laughter] Donald Perry: Sure, not a problem. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: So... Michael Fleming: Miss Cheryl McQuaid, go 'head. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh, I had nothin', thank you. Michael Fleming: Marilyn. Marilyn Coulter: [49:20] Um, I, so you doing massage therapy now and that's something that you do while – as a – as a…? Donald Perry: I do it as a side job. It got me into it because one of the ladies that worked for [Jimmy Surette 49:33] took classes on it and had been talkin' to me and I'd go up and down the line and talk to my friends and stuff and started givin'm shoulder rubs and stuff and they'd come up, "You're in the wrong profession, you need to do this." So the closer I got to retirement, I started thinkin' about possibilities a somethin' I might like to do afterwards and so I figured I'd take one class and see if I liked it. So I signed up for it through TAP, tuition assistance program, and, uh, took the whole first class, massage class, and just fell in love with it. So I ended up taking 12 classes, I believe it was of different areas that do with massage therapy. Marilyn Coulter: [50:10] So now you're a certified masseuse? Donald Perry: Uh, uh, I'm not certified 'cause I felt I wasn't going to do it as a full-time income... [throat clearing] Donald Perry: ...so just as a side thing, so I never got my certification on it. Marilyn Coulter: Hm. Donald Perry: But I still do it. I got a good clientele build up. Marilyn Coulter: Oh. Okay. Michael Fleming: [50:56] Mike Fleming. Don, that – that's really a great story to hear that 'cause most men don't go into that field and, uh, it – it's, it's one that we, um, could use with all the musculoskeletal, um, injuries and repetitive motion injuries that we get [inaudible 50:47]. I don't think you'll ever need to look for – you, you – job security is gonna be there. Um, have you ever participated in any activities outside of the plant? What do you do community-wise or…? Donald Perry: Uh, I was doing Meals on Wheels for about 9 years delivering meals to shut-ins and senior citizens that couldn't get out. And I continued doing it until I got put on day shift when the plant started closing and I wasn't able to anymore. But now I'm also involved in Special Olympics and actually we're getting ready to leave next Tuesday to go up to Traverse City for winter games. Michael Fleming: Very good Don. Marilyn Coulter: That's awesome. Michael Fleming: It is. Marilyn Coulter: [51:31] So, um, how long have you been with Special Olympics? Donald Perry: A year. Marilyn Coulter: A year? Donald Perry: Yes. Marilyn Coulter: [51:35] And so, um, what is that you do with the children? Donald Perry: Uh, right now, my job basically consists of being a chaperone for'm. I go out, like the winter games, we go up and we have to make sure they get to their events on time and we have 3 athletes in each room, so we [got 51:53] pretty much their guardian for the time that they're up there and stuff. We take'm to their events and take'm and make sure they get their dinner or get their meds or whatever they might need. Marilyn Coulter: [52:09] Now, I know right now, um, you and some of your co-workers are doing something special as far makin' some things for some people for next winter aren't you? Donald Perry: Uh, yes, we are, at the Jobs Bank office in Dewitt we're – make – crocheting hats and scarfs and whatnot and we're donatin'm to rescue mission and some of'm are being donated ta Sparrow Hospital Maternity Ward for newborns. The ladies there got me into it and I'm poppin'm out right and left [inaudible 52:35]. [papers rustling] Marilyn Coulter: [52:40] Hm. Um, and what you said right now, is, is you said some things that, um, about workers and number one is that they're there for their co-workers and for the community, and, um, working there, there're some things about your co- – fe – fellow co-workers along with yourself that the people in the community don't know as far as maybe their education, as far as what they do for outside community? Donald Perry: Uh, I believe so. Everybody thinks that I get this thrown at me a lot, that you work at GM, you got a easy job, you make lots a money, that type of thing, but they really don't realize that a lot of'm are very high college educated and a lot of'm [loud background noise] do, do community service. We got a lot from the bank and community service right now doing the jobs and, uh, even like we hear of someone being injured or somethin' or having a disease or whatnot, we'll take a collection up for'm and send to'm. A lot of people help out at schools for tutoring and whatnot. And a lot a public just don't see that part of us. Marilyn Coulter: And a lot of them have taken their crafts and made businesses out of'm so they help there… Donald Perry: Yeah. Marilyn Coulter: All right. Michael Fleming: [54:00] Mike Fleming, Don. Um, okay [sighing] can you remember or what was your best memory of the Fisher Body plant? Donald Perry: Uh, I think the best one I can think of is the togetherness of all the people, making friends and being like one big family. And again, it goes back to if someone was in need, everybody'd be there to help out in whatever aspect they could. And then again, uh, just the knowledge of being able to see a car develop from pieces of metal into a full-fledged car was amazing to me and still is today. Michael Fleming: [54:49] What would be considered your worst memory of Fisher Body? Donald Perry: I believe when the booth cleaners got killed 'cause that will be with me forever. Marilyn Coulter: [55:26] Marilyn Coulter. Um, you were an oiler and a booth cleaner and, you know, right know we're in the transition to going to the new facility and, um, Fisher Body, as we all love and know it, is now gone, even as of yesterday, they took the signs down, which means the building's coming down. Being from Lansing, working there for 34 years, how does that make you feel? Donald Perry: Really sad 'cause Lansing has always been known as the capital of Oldsmobile and everything, in fact the last day I was in the plant, I just drove around and was lookin' at everything and it actually brought tears to my eyes because it's been over half of my life I spent in that building and it was really a sad part of – like – part of Lansing history is being torn down. And it's just a hard pill to swallow as they say. I know it's all part of progress and we're going into a new facility, state-of-the-art facility, but still this has been home to me for 34 years. I actually – I think I spent more time in Fisher Body building than I have at my own house over the years. But it's real sad losing – it's like I'm losing a part of my life and everything but it's all part of progress I guess. Marilyn Coulter: Mm-hm. Michael Fleming: [56:26] Mike Fleming, Don. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you would like to speak about? Donald Perry: Uh, no, nothing that I can think of offhand. Michael Fleming: Well we want to thank you for coming in and interviewing with us. Donald Perry: Uh, you're more than welcome. Thank you for having me. Michael Fleming: Thank you, Don. Thank you, Don. /ds