Richard (Dick) Sandborn discusses his career as a production worker and UAW Local 602 President at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doug Rademacher: This is the Lansing Fisher Body Historical Team. Today, we’re here to interview Richard L. Sandborn. Richard Sandborn: C, C. Doug Rademacher: Richard C. Sandborn. Richard Sandborn: Sandborn. Doug Rademacher: Uh, today is April 26. We’re in the Local 602 Conference Room and the time is [coughing] approximately 10:30 a.m. Um, first we’ll introduce the team. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Jerri Smith: Jerri Smith. Doug Rademacher: And I’m Doug Rademacher. Today again we’re interviewing Mr. Sandborn. [0:32] Will you please state your name and spell it for us? Richard Sandborn: Richard C. Sandborn, R-i-c-h-a-r-d C. S-a-n-d-b-o-r-n. Doug Rademacher: [0:42] And what is your address? Richard Sandborn: 3653 East Grand River, Portland, Michigan 48875. Doug Rademacher: [0:51] Are you married? Richard Sandborn: Yes. Doug Rademacher: [0:53] Do you have children? Richard Sandborn: Yes. [chuckling] Four, four, I have two boys, two girls. Doug Rademacher: [1:00] Where were you born and raised? Richard Sandborn: [chuckling] I was born a half mile from where I live right now from my mother’s house and dad’s house. Doug Rademacher: And that would be... Richard Sandborn: And I was raised there. Doug Rademacher: [1:11] Portland? Richard Sandborn: In Portland, Michigan. Doug Rademacher: And, uh... Richard Sandborn: Well, four – actually, four miles west of Portland, Michigan on East Grand River Avenue. Doug Rademacher: [1:21] And would you tell me what did your parents do for a living? Richard Sandborn: Farmers, farmer and my wife – uh, my mother was a homemaker. She raised 13 kids, six brothers and six sisters. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: And you’re 13th? Richard Sandborn: Thirteen. I... Doug Rademacher: Uh... Richard Sandborn: No. I was the middle one, six older and six younger. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: [1:43] What is your education level? Richard Sandborn: High school in Portland. Doug Rademacher: [1:49] Richard, were you ever in the military? Richard Sandborn: No, I wasn’t. I was going to go when a buddy of mine was going to go too. Then we got down to – this was during the Korean War. We got down to Detroit ready to take our physical and he got notice his dad had a heart attack. Well, he wouldn’t go, so I wouldn’t go. I came back, which I’m probably maybe lucky, you know, I might not be here. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: Well, we’re lucky to have you here today, that’s for sure. Um, you said your parents were farmers. [2:17] What did you do before you hired in to Fisher Body? Richard Sandborn: Uh, worked on a farm for, uh, C.W. Neff Farm they called it. He was a big, big shot in General Motors. In fact, he built C.W. Neff School out here in Grand Ledge. It was named after him and everything. And I worked there for three years and if I remember right, I think we got, I got $100 a month plus my milk and butter and meat. I was working in the morning we’d be milking 50 head of cows till night every... Male: Hm. Richard Sandborn: ...every day, seven days a week, for my brother who, um, kinda managed the farm. Doug Rademacher: [3:11] And did you live on this farm or did you still...? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. We lived on the farm. In that time I weighed 134 pounds and I wore the same shoes to church and stuff that we wore in the barn. Doug Rademacher: And what duties...? Richard Sandborn: [chuckling] That’s how rough it was. Doug Rademacher: [3:25] What duties did you do on the farm? Did, did you take turns covering different, different duties or was it the same one all the time? Richard Sandborn: Always we’d [inaudible 3:33] milkin’ Guernsey cows. We had a whole herd of them, 50 of’m. And the guy, like I said, he was a big General Motors executive. So he’d come out every morning, he’d check the barn out. We had to put lime down, we had to clean the barn, the stables, everything had to be white, everything had to be white. And then he’d go and check where we had the milkers with his hands and stuff, make sure everything was clean. Doug Rademacher: And you say he was with General Motors, [3:58] was he in our Fisher facility or was he...? Richard Sandborn: No. [Inaudible 4:00] in Buffalo, New York. He designed the Buffalo plant in Buffalo, New York. He helped to invent the, I think it was what they called the valve buttress at that time. He was one of the inventors of that. He drew a heavy [inaudible 4:13], a lot of money from GM, so that’s why he could afford to donate that school out there. Doug Rademacher: Hm. Interesting. Richard Sandborn: It’s still, I think it’s still out in Grand Ledge as far as I know. I don’t know if it’s still named C.W. Neff School but it was. Doug Rademacher: Okay. [4:31] [sniffling] [throat clearing] Would you please tell us why did you hire in to Fisher Body? Richard Sandborn: Oh, can I say something more before I...? Doug Rademacher: Oh, say anything you’d like. Richard Sandborn: After that, I went to, uh, REO to work, REO Motors and I worked down there for two years in the Lawnmower Division, uh, piece work, welding hubs in lawnmowers. Of course, they had the truck plant and stuff there, motor plant, and they went on strike and I had three little kids. My wife and I had three little kids at home, I couldn’t afford to strike very long and all they’d give us – there’s no benefits. There were no strike benefits. They’d give you some doughnuts, some apple cider and that was it, so I, I left there and went, come into Fisher Body [chuckling] because I couldn’t – I, I, I’m lucky I did make the change, you know, ‘cause I had retired along with a lot of them other guys who had, didn’t get a lot of benefits at REO. Doug Rademacher: No. That didn’t end up [inaudible 5:25]. Richard Sandborn: Or lost them later I guess anyway. [sniffling] Doug Rademacher: So you talk about the strike, [5:30] can you tell us when did you hire in to Fisher Body? Richard Sandborn: 5/15/55. Doug Rademacher: [5:40] How did you know they were hiring? Richard Sandborn: I think they had, if I remember right, I think they had notices out that they were, they were, they needed help then. They hi-, hired a lot of people in late ’54 and ’55. Doug Rademacher: [5:57] Do you have any other family members that worked at Fisher Body? Richard Sandborn: I have a son-in-law that works there, [Dave Fisher 6:02] in the Paint Department. And [throat clearing] I had my one, my youngest son who is now a retired athletic director from Flint, football coach or, yeah, football and track coach, he worked there for two days in the Trim department and somebody found out that he was my son and I was president of the union, I guess didn’t like him or something for some reason, swung a motor down the line on the trails, hit him side of the head [inaudible 6:33] knocked him out, he quit after two days. [chuckling] Female: Oh. Oh my. Richard Sandborn: You know, there was things going on then that if they got wind of who you were, some people didn’t care much for the union. Doug Rademacher: Well, that sounds like some story we’re going to have to hear about. Richard Sandborn: [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: Cheryl McQuaid. Cheryl McQuaid: [6:52] What year was that when your son hired in? Richard Sandborn: Oh. I have to figure the year. I would think around ’72 or somewhere ‘cause he, he got out of school [inaudible 7:11] 30, 30 [inaudible 7:13]. I think it would be ’71, ’72 in there. I couldn’t, I, I couldn’t say for sure... Doug Rademacher: Yeah. Richard Sandborn: ...’cause... Doug Rademacher: Okay. [7:22] Well, how old were you when you hired in to the Fisher Plant? Richard Sandborn: [chuckling] I’m 75 now and I hired in in ’55. I was born in ’31. That would make... Doug Rademacher: ’31. Richard Sandborn: 24. Doug Rademacher: 24. Richard Sandborn: 24. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Well... Richard Sandborn: I mean the first, actually to get back to when the first job I ever had wasn’t really on the farm. [coughing] [throat clearing] I worked on a, a tiling machine laying tile for [inaudible 7:49] farm tile around the different areas and stuff, you know. And there was another deal there somebody looked over at me because we were laying tile and I was what you call riding the shoe behind, you know, and we could only lay 8 each tile and we had 10 each we had to lay that day, so I had to lay it outside the shoe, what they call a shoe trench, you know, and I was layin’ outside and all of a sudden the banks come in on me and God or somebody looked over me because I happened to be standing up when it happened and it caught, caught me right up to here. And there was only, there was only two guys there, only one of them had a shovel [inaudible 8:27] a spade and they started digging. The guy that had to run the machine he told me, he says don’t move, don’t try to breathe, just breathe, you know, but don’t try to get yourself out because you’ll get more pressure on you. And I survived it all right but if I had been bent over, I’d have been dead. So close, you know, you don’t know when your time is. They never laid tile after outside that shoe again after that. Even if they banked the wall up, they still wouldn’t, wouldn’t do that. Doug Rademacher: [8:57] You called it a shoe or a chute? Richard Sandborn: Shoe, a shoe, they called it a shoe. You ride it ‘cause your feet are on the bottom and you ride backwards, you kick the [inaudible 9:06] together with your shoe, see, so that’s why that called it a shoe. It’s four foot, you know, three or four foot deep down in the ground and stuff. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Richard Sandborn: That was for 75 cents an hour. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: [9:21] What shift and department did you hire in to? Richard Sandborn: Body Shop and I worked in the solder wheel. I think they called it 4C, Group 4C. Metal finish area was 4B. I think solder was 4C, just beyond where they put the solder on it and then we grind it off, you know. Doug Rademacher: [9:44] And you, were you fortunate to have the first shift or second shift? Richard Sandborn: Swing shift. [coughing] Doug Rademacher: [9:50] What does that mean? Richard Sandborn: We all drea-, we all dreaded that. You worked four weeks days, four weeks nights and then they voted one time to extend it to five weeks days, five weeks nights. Then they voted it out. That was always a political issue with everybody too. You had your older seniority people who naturally wanted to stay on days, you know, and you had your younger seniority people who felt that wasn’t fair ‘cause they had worked straight, you know, they had to work straight nights so that’s why you had the swing shift. Doug Rademacher: S-... Richard Sandborn: They’d get more, the night shift would get more voters out, you know, so they voted for the swing shift. Doug Rademacher: Well, that’s... Richard Sandborn: That was quite a few years too. Doug Rademacher: So it all went back to... Richard Sandborn: Till you started run in, you know, you run into a lot of problems, family problems and stuff, people have to swing. You had a lot more people gettin’ sick and stuff because your environment’s different, you know, when you swing shifts [inaudible 10:41], so then they went back to straight shifts. Doug Rademacher: Hm. [10:46] And do you remember which year that was that they voted in the straight shifts, hm? Richard Sandborn: I think Joe Santoro was president if I remember. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Well, we’re going to get a little nostalgic on you. [11:01] I want you to think back, how was it to, to, uh, get an application at, at that time? Did you have to stand in line or was, was there a different method? Richard Sandborn: [Inaudible 11:13]. No. You’d go right in and get an application, easy. No problem at all. You didn’t have to be referred by your brother or dad or anybody, you know. I went in and got it, got in there and then a week later they’d call you or maybe sometime hire you the same day. You’d be interviewed. They had some people who were pretty good. Others, management people they were #1, you know, bad guys. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: [11:43] Well, will you share with us your first day? Can you remember walking in the doors of Fisher Body? You said you came from a REO, uh, Lawnmower line, so you’ve done a little assembly work. What was it like to walk in and see an auto assembly [coughing] plant and what was your first day like? Richard Sandborn: Scared. You know, I was a farm boy, always been more or less born a farm boy all my life, you know. I was petrified. I didn’t know whether I could find the department. I didn’t know where, if I’d find my way back to the vehicle or not [chuckling] in the parking lot. It was bad. Then I got, once I got on the job, then, of course, I was assigned to the body shop, uh, to grind and solder. Where do you think I went? Trim department. They put me up there [chuckling] and kept me on different, different type of jobs up in the Trim department probably for, I don’t know, two weeks. I never saw the body shop for about two weeks. Then they finally moved – when they had enough help up there to do – I was fillin’ in kinda, you know, me and other guys, you know. When they got enough help, then they put me back down in the booth wearin’ a hood, which I got on the day I retired. I, I got it right at home in my basement. They gave me... Female: S-... Richard Sandborn: ...the Labor Relations department gave it to me because I was a high committeeman at that time, you know, and past president of the Local, so they felt they owed me something. I didn’t know they was going to do it [chuckling] but they did. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: [13:25] Well, early on then you, um, you hired into Body but they put you right up into Trim or did you...? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: ...work one day in the Body? Richard Sandborn: No, I never worked at all. Doug Rademacher: [13:32] So you, so you, you were taken up... Richard Sandborn: Well, they just told me... Doug Rademacher: ...by a supervisor or how did they pick you to take you to Trim? Richard Sandborn: They just told me when I got, I reported down in the body shop. Doug Rademacher: Mm-hm. Richard Sandborn: Then they just, a su-, supervisor took me up there. Hell, I, I couldn’t find my way up there, you know, [chuckling] I didn’t know where to go. And I was up there. They had me report up there to the same foreman for a while. Then he would, he would loan me out, the foreman up there, to other areas within the Trim department. I don’t remember whether it was A or B line, which line I was on for sure or not. I know I was up there. I dreaded it... Doug Rademacher: So [inaudible 14:08]. Richard Sandborn: ...‘cause I wanted a regular job, you know. Doug Rademacher: Uh-huh. Richard Sandborn: I didn’t want to be stuck all over the place. Doug Rademacher: But you got to see the Trim department. Um, different people view the different, uh, areas of the plant. There’s Body, Paint and Trim. You got to see Trim, uh, then they took you to Body Shop. [14:28] Can you tell me the first day of going down to Body Shop? Richard Sandborn: Yeah, I went down there and I think [Bill McGoveney 14:35] was my supervisor and [John McGinley 14:39] was the superintendent down in the body shop. He was a hell of a nice guy. The reason I’m saying that ‘cause I got to know him. You don’t mind me sayin’ hell do you? [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: No, no. Say anything you want. Richard Sandborn: Uh. Doug Rademacher: Really, this is, uh, just a piece of history. Richard Sandborn: ‘Cause I did a lot of negotiatin’ with him, see for, uh, when I was chairman of the shop committee for one term over there. I negotiated with him and then when I was president for nine years I did a lot of negotiating with him too, so. You get to know a lot of the higher ups, you know, plant managers and, uh, superintendents. Doug Rademacher: [15:12] Can you tell me how the job differed, you know, the body shop job that you got put on, what was that like? Uh, you said you put a hood on but you worked up in Trim. Richard Sandborn: Yeah, well, I felt more relaxed and enjoyed it more even though I had a hood over my head. I was on the B line which pumps air. I don’t know if you’re familiar with what, what the body shop used to be like [inaudible 15:37] anything like that today or not, pumped air into your face so you could breathe, you know. And we had cotton battin’ for earplugs and then we got gloves. Should, should’ve got’m every two or three days but a lot of times if you get a hole in your glove, you’d ask for new gloves, the supervisor would bring you a roll of tape, you take off a chunk and you tape it up and continue your job. That’s – and, and then I worked in the booth with water underneath me, a pit, there’s a pit underneath with, uh, a pit full water, you know. I couldn’t stand so I had to squat ‘cause I was grinding the rockers on it, what they call the rocker panels all the way across there. And after, a-, after I did that for about a year, I’m really gettin’ ahead of myself but after I did it for about a year I had a hernia and I had to go on sick leave on account of that. And they had two other guys had hernias too, so they finally decided they could lower that, you know, their smart engineers decided they can lower that level where you wouldn’t have to squat every time at 62 cars an hour, you know, squat down and up, up and down. Not only on the front part of the rocker but in the middle and the rear, three times you had to squat. They lowered that pit and then all we had to do was, was right in front of us, you know, and they lowered the water level. They waited till three guys had a hernia. Which I filed, by the way, I had workman’s comp on it. Doug Rademacher: Yeah. I heard you say sick leave and I was going to ask you that, so it was deemed work related and you were able to collect worker’s comp. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: Now... Richard Sandborn: I should have did one other thing. I should have had these all taken care of too. I should have filed workman’s comp and I didn’t do that. I regret it right now ‘cause it’s costin’ me $700 every so often to get new hearing aids. Doug Rademacher: I was going to say you said these... Richard Sandborn: If I had workmen’s comp, they’d pay for it right today. Doug Rademacher: ..he’s, uh... Richard Sandborn: So, I... Doug Rademacher: ...pointing to his ears, so, uh, speaking of, uh, the hearing aid he’s wearing. [17:42] Um, definitely work related, huh? Richard Sandborn: [chuckling] Yeah. [Inaudible 17:46]. Doug Rademacher: Cheryl McQuaid. Cheryl McQuaid: You said you were grinding the solder. Richard Sandborn: Mm-hm. Cheryl McQuaid: [17:51] How big was the machine you had to squat up and down with? Was it on a pulley, was it...? Richard Sandborn: It’s on a pull-, overhead pulley. It developed, uh, I think 30,000 rpm or something, electrical machine, you know, the machine was runnin’ off electrical. Big grinder, you pull it down and grind your spot off, you know, and then let, release it back up and then pull it back down for the next part. Of course, when you grind lead, I was grinding lead and I got lead poisoning. That’s one of my problems I, I still get, livin’ with it right today with my kidneys ‘cause I, I got taken out of the booth three different times on account of lead poisoning. And I got taken out a couple times because I knew how to, to shaft them, you know. I knew how to get high lead when I didn’t have high lead. [chuckling] Cheryl McQuaid: [18:45] And did they have you, um, medically checked for lead? Richard Sandborn: Oh yes. We had coveralls [inaudible 18:52] that had, had one pocket here, you know, that it clipped over, you know. You only had one pocket, [coughing] [inaudible 19:01]. And back then, they, everybody smoked, you know. Well, we couldn’t get anybody a lot of times to relieve us or stuff, so we’d carry our cigarettes inside of here and then when the line would stop for an instant, we’d light up, pull our hood off ‘cause there was no lead flyin’ you know, and light up. Well, them cigarettes over a period of time, years, you know, they had a little bit of lead on them, you know, and that’s one of the reasons why we get some lead poisoning out of’m. But we, I mean sometimes we couldn’t get nobody to relieve us. We, we’d do things that actually would, you should get fired for. If we got caught doin’ them, they’re gonna fire you. If you couldn’t get, uh, uh, somebody to relieve you, we was on a curve, just before they come to a curve, we’d stick these rag wheels in the, in the line. [coughing] We call’m rag wheels, the grinding wheel, you know, about this big around like [inaudible 19:55]. Cheryl McQuaid: [19:56] About three inches around? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. And when, when the [inaudible 19:59] come around the corner, it would trip the dog, what they called the dog on it, you know, that little clip deal, and they’d come together. Well, that meant Skilled Trades had to come out there [chuckling] and do some work, you know. It would take about 10 minutes, so we’d get our, we’d get our relief that way. We had our, we had different guys assigned within the booth to pull this all the time so they couldn’t catch us ‘cause they even had a supervisor outside trying to watch and see what was causin’ it but we was one step ahead of’m. Cheryl McQuaid: So that would afford you a little bit of breakdown time so that you could run to the bathroom [coughing] or have a cigarette. [20:36] How did you fudge it so that... Richard Sandborn: No. We, we, we had people who, who didn’t have time to go to the bathroom. I see’m where they, they took a leak right there, right down in the water ‘cause they couldn’t, wouldn’t get a guy in there. They might wait 15, 20 minutes and nobody would come in. There’d be guys standing out there with the foreman but usually the relief, relief man was the foreman’s pet or something, you know, normally back in them days. He’d go in whenever he damn felt like it, you know. Doug Rademacher: So teacher’s pet isn’t just school. They had it... Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: ...in the plant too. Richard Sandborn: You bet they did, yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Now you said that you could fudge your lead levels. [21:13] How would you do that? So it looked like... Richard Sandborn: Coffee. Cheryl McQuaid: ...you had... Richard Sandborn: Coffee put, put it up higher. Cheryl McQuaid: Really? Richard Sandborn: It was always high anyway, you know, fairly high from working in the environment but we found out coffee would. We had a Dr. [Oshner 21:30] who was our doctor there. He, he was there for, god, I don’t know, probably 30 years and they had a nurse there, uh, [Joe Burch 21:40], who ended up superintendent or, uh, yeah, superintendent of the body shop, that was, uh, nurse was his wife and stuff. He knew about some of the stuff was going on but he never said anything ‘cause he was a good guy, Joe was. Some of your supervisors were good guys. They’d work with you and try to help you but others, probably the same way nowadays. Cheryl McQuaid: [22:04] So if your lead was high, what did they do to get it lower? Richard Sandborn: They kept your rate of pay the same and sent you back in the jungle, in the body shop. Cheryl McQuaid: Out of the lead booth but [coughing] in the jungle. Richard Sandborn: And jobs where you really worked your butt off too. Cheryl McQuaid: [22:21] So you were kind of disciplined for high-, having high lead they gave you an undesirable job? Richard Sandborn: Oh yeah. You got the most undesirable job. You didn’t get an offline job. They had offline spot welders too but they’d stick you right in the line. The one I got was for a supervisor [Ray Robson 22:36] at that time and – is it all right to get in on some of this? Male: Oh yeah, sure. Richard Sandborn: And he had – I’d get in, I was where they dropped what they called the floor pan under the, where the line first started, you know, under the frame itself there. I had to get up in the trunk of the car, you step off the step, get up in the trunk, weld around the rear, rear window, get back down off, run around to the front, weld across the front. I mean there was nobody, nobody wanted the job, you know. They’d stick you on that. They figured that would get you over, make sure you’d correct your lead problem, you know, quicker. You wouldn’t fake it and stuff, you know what I mean. [chuckling] Cheryl McQuaid: And you did that 60 plus times an hour. Richard Sandborn: Oh yeah. And, uh, once again, you’d, I’d wear gloves out e-, every day I’d had gloves be worn out. I’d ask for a new pair of gloves, once again I got that black tape. Uh, [Harold Tap 23:40] was the foreman back there. He – they called him Cowboy. He was a terrible guy. They had another guy, [Don Clark 23:46] was supervisor back there offline spot weld. He was a real nice guy. Everybody liked him. His family lives out here in Grand Ledge I think. Cheryl McQuaid: [23:54] Now when you had to do around the back window and then run around the front of the car and do the front windshield area, was that spot welding or mig welding? Richard Sandborn: Spot welding with a gun. You had to pull a heavy gun down, you know. It wasn’t no light gun. You had to pull it down and you had to have them spots, you know, not that far but [inaudible 24:14] so far apart and you had to move with it. If you goofed a little bit, got’m too far apart or not far, not close enough, then they’d get after you. Cheryl McQuaid: I can’t even imagine you had enough time to do all that. Richard Sandborn: You sweated. You sweatin’. Like I say, I weighed 135 pounds. [chuckling] Cheryl McQuaid: And then you were hoppin’ up and down off the car. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Off the, off that flatbed, you know, that the body rides on, yeah, and then gettin’ in to the trunk which is greasy and slippery and everything else, you know, and get back up. Cheryl McQuaid: And raw metal. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Sounds like a nightmare. Richard Sandborn: That was something that if you didn’t really need the money and stuff, you’d quit maybe, you know. But if you got four kids and stuff and need the money, I had to have it, you know. It wasn’t something I’d want to make a career out of to start out with. [chuckling] Cheryl McQuaid: [25:09] And how long would you have to do so-, that type of work, that type of job before they would allow you back into the booth? Richard Sandborn: Well, they usually keep you out like, oh, two weeks or so, then they run you down to the hospital for another check, uh, blood. They take blood out of you and your level was normal, you’d be back down, then they’d put you back on your old job. You always got your old job back, always give you your old job. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. You said the jungle and you worked, it was hard work. [25:43] Who worked in the jungle regularly and who taught you how to do those jobs and can you describe what a jungle means? What does it look like? Richard Sandborn: Just, uh, looked like a lot of heavy machines and stuff, sparks flying all over the place, you know, and, and welding. It was – you, you said mig welding. Well, this was more or less just plain welding back then and, and a lot of people had problems with their eyes over that, you know, with welding, you know, because they didn’t provide the proper shields and stuff for you, you know. And it was made up of I would say probably two-thirds of’m were black people that was back there, minority people that worked in that area. Some, uh, some of us whites but most of it was people like myself who had lead poisoning or some people that they just wanted to shaft around, move’m around the body shop. Doug Rademacher: And you said you worked up in Trim. [26:48] Were the minorities, Hispanics, blacks, were they kept in particular areas or did you see’m in Trim? Richard Sandborn: No. Never, I never even noticed them up in Trim much. There were some up there but I never happened to know someone. Doug Rademacher: Cheryl McQuaid. Cheryl McQuaid: You mentioned that you first, when you first hired in you were assigned body shop but you worked in Trim for a couple weeks and you hated it. [27:12] What was it about Trim that you didn’t like other than it not being your regular job? Were the jobs hard? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. The jobs were hard. I just couldn’t, for some reason I couldn’t keep up and do the, do the things they had me doin’, reachin’ my hand in over a sharp metal or something, you know, to put a piece of the trim on or somethin’. I just couldn’t do it right, catchin’ hell all the time from supervisors. And I just didn’t – and different job every day, number one. Not the same job two days in a row and that, when I’d leave home I didn’t know what I was going to do. That alone kind of petrifies you, you know, ‘cause you, you don’t know whether you’re gonna be able to – I always wanted to do my fair day’s work, you know, and do a good job but I just couldn’t do it up there. Cheryl McQuaid: [27:53] And was that the norm to put somebody on a different job every day? Doesn’t it take a while to learn a job or? Richard Sandborn: Well, I don’t think it was normal but they, they did it with a lot of people, though, you know. Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. Richard, you said you came from Portland. [28:14] Can you tell me what it was like to drive back in the 50s, the, uh, 20, 30 miles one way to get to General Motors, the Fisher plant? Richard Sandborn: Well, when it was on the night shift it was a lot of fun. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: [28:34] And why is that? Richard Sandborn: When we got out of work. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: Oh. Richard Sandborn: Uh, usually there was, I’d ride with, we’d take turns three or four of us ride together. A guy by the name of [Hitchcock Galinaitis 28:46] we’d take turns driving back and forth and also, of course, Saginaw had nothin’ then. We’d come [inaudible 28:55] Saginaw down to Fisher with no problem at all. The only problem might be was your jet plant and some of them gettin’ in and outta work but there was no, no businesses out there then. It was all farm land basically all the way to Grand Ledge. And then after we’d get outta work, we’d get out of work sometime 2:00, we knew we had to come to work nine, ten hours, which would be 3, you’d call the – oh what did they call it? [Inaudible 29:22], uh, right by [inaudible 29:23] airport, [inaudible 29:24] Elks Club out there by the airport. Doug Rademacher: Yep. It’s still there. Richard Sandborn: Uh, is it? Well, it used to be Airport Bar, wasn’t it? Doug Rademacher: Airport Tavern is still there, mm-hm. Richard Sandborn: Airport Tavern, okay. We’d call out there and order our refreshments and he’d have’m waitin’ for us. He had a dog by the name of Bonnie I remember. We used to when we’d get out regular hours we’d stop [inaudible 29:44]. We run into a lot of different people there. I remember one night we run into a guy that invited us over to his house. We got over there and he was Governor G. Mennen Williams’ pilot and he had all kinds of food for us in his basement and had a real blast for us, all the beer and whisky we wanted to drink. [chuckling] This was 3:00 in the morning but he was just welcoming, you know, working people, see. He was, in my opinion, he was one of our best governors we ever had, G. Mennen Williams, for the workin’ man. Doug Rademacher: We definitely need that. Richard Sandborn: We’re inheritin’ right now all the stuff John Engler screwed us for years. Doug Rademacher: Don’t we got our hands full right now trying to keep every job we’ve got. Richard Sandborn: Yep. Doug Rademacher: [30:36] Um, did you hire in by yourself or did you hire in with a group of people? Richard Sandborn: I hired in by, by myself. [sniffling] Doug Rademacher: Okay. Richard Sandborn: There was people hired, you know, a week or two ahead of me but I hired in that same day [inaudible 30:46] by myself. Doug Rademacher: [30:53] When you first started, were there new hire initiations or pranks that were played on the, the worker back then? Richard Sandborn: No. I don’t – not really. Of course, they couldn’t play mu-, well, sometimes in the booth they could play pranks like shut your air off, you know, put a piece of wire or somethin’ so you couldn’t breathe for a while, [laughter] find out what it was and you had to take the wire out. Or yeah, and also some of the metal finishers who worked beyond us thought we wasn’t grindin’ enough solder off so when we would take our break they would take our little holes that goes into our hood, they’d put some water in that damn thing [laughter] then so when we would plug it into the air, you know, what we got, a little bit... Female: [Inaudible 31:41]. Richard Sandborn: ...inside of our face shield. We had a shield, you know, in front of it. That was all wet. We’d have to have a rag and wipe it all off so we could see the work. That happened [inaudible 31:50]. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Richard Sandborn: Or sometimes we would put stuff on the seam after we got done too to make sure it would kind of mess it up for the metal finisher too, like [inaudible 32:03]. [coughing] [laughter] They had some pranks. Doug Rademacher: I think the word is paybacks are hell, right? Cheryl McQuaid: Right. Doug Rademacher: Um, you’ve shared some of the places you’ve worked and, uh, some of the things that you had to, they gave you to wear as far as protective equipment and so forth. [32:28] What was the environment when you hired in and did you see it change over the years as you worked? Richard Sandborn: What do you mean the environment? Doug Rademacher: Uh, the work environment. You said you had cotton for your ears. [32:41] When did you see...? Richard Sandborn: Oh. Doug Rademacher: ...changes in...? Richard Sandborn: Oh that probably, oh I’d say probably ’61, somewhere in there, before they started givin’ us ear plugs. Doug Rademacher: [32:54] And did you get gloves instead of tape at that time? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. I think it was about then when we negotiated the gloves for us, yeah, in that area where we didn’t have to – we had to buy our own gloves to start it with, you know. They negotiated gloves for everybody and extra pairs and stuff, the committee did. Doug Rademacher: [33:12] [Inaudible 33:11] how did they do that? How did they, how did you pay for it, out of your paycheck, was it deducted or did you...? Richard Sandborn: They deducted, yeah. Doug Rademacher: [33:17] Did you have to pay? Richard Sandborn: It had a, I know it had some listing in there for, you know, so much for your coveralls for, uh, one pair of coveralls a week or if you worked in the booth you had to change’m every day but they still only charged you for one pair. They did give you the other four pairs if you worked five days. Of course, then, then it was 10 and 11, five nights and days [inaudible 33:39]. [coughing] A lot of that was overtime. Doug Rademacher: Now this was good money. Richard Sandborn: Oh yeah. $1.75 an hour. That was it. Paid a lot in overtime. Then come to, uh, 19-, I think it was ’58 I was laid off for one year. They didn’t sell cars at all in ’57 and ’58, didn’t sell very good. And I lived in a tenant house and I went around and painted by hand, painted barns for a dollar an hour. Doug Rademacher: You lived in a tent house, now were you [inaudible 34:19]. Richard Sandborn: Tenant house, in a tenant house. Doug Rademacher: Oh, tenant house, oh. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [34:22] And you were married and had the kids then? Richard Sandborn: Four kids, yeah. I had to survive. We didn’t get – I think we got $35 a week. Male: Unemployment. Richard Sandborn: No, no. [Inaudible 34:32] itself, you know, you just didn’t have it. You had to survive on what you had. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: Now you had coworkers and you developed friendships after workin’ in the same area for a long period of time. [34:46] Did you consider your coworkers brothers and sisters or did it come to a time where you felt that? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. There were some of’m, yeah, yeah. Some of’m, uh, I’d stop over their place, you know, and we’d have a beer or something. We never really run around together too much other than one couple we did a lot [inaudible 35:04]. [throat clearing] We still had one couple we had a place down in Florida in the same park. He died not too long ago. In our park down there we had four people from Fisher Body that retired and it’s only a 21 place, 21 units, and I’m the only one that’s still alive. All the others [chuckling] died. Doug Rademacher: [35:26] And you just returned home from, uh, your, uh... Richard Sandborn: Four months. Doug Rademacher: ...winter stay down there? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Four months. Doug Rademacher: Well, wel-, welcome back. Richard Sandborn: Just outside of, uh, uh, Orlando right on Highway 27, right in the middle of the state, south of I-4. Doug Rademacher: Cheryl McQuaid. Cheryl McQuaid: [35:44] Sir, when you first hired in, when did you, when were you introduced to your UAW committeeman, shop committee person? Were they out on the floor walking around introducing themselves? How did you become familiar with the UAW? Richard Sandborn: I’m, I’m thinkin’, maybe I’m wrong, I’m thinkin’ they, they wore a button. They all had, they had to wear some kind of button indicatin’ that they was. There was no benefit reps or nothin’, you know. It was just a district committeeman, alternate committeeman and the top committeeman. They wore a button indicatin’ what they were ‘cause I’ve got some of’m [inaudible 36:26]. Cheryl McQuaid: And did you... Richard Sandborn: They, they, they wouldn’t, they didn’t actually introduce themselves, you know, more or less and management [coughing] [inaudible 36:37] introduce them neither, you know. They let you know you had union representation but that was it. Cheryl McQuaid: [36:43] Do you remember the first time you need to, needed to use your union representation? Richard Sandborn: No, I don’t, to tell you the truth. I know I did many a time. [chuckling] Cheryl McQuaid: [36:55] How long did you stay in the soldering booth, the lead booth? Richard Sandborn: Uh, off and on, 30.1 years. Cheryl McQuaid: Really? Richard Sandborn: Subtractin’ all the time I was president of the local. I was workin’ in the booth when I retired. Never advanced out of the booth as far as working on the job, you know. Cheryl McQuaid: [37:21] You just, you liked the job? You never put in transfers or? Richard Sandborn: Well, I was normally, thanks to the people in my area who voted for me, I was either a district alternate committeeman, [coughing] a district committeeman, a shop committeeman or a zone committeeman or the president of the Local. So I could be thankful for the union that I spent the majority of my time was union activities, you know. I, I mean I was on, on the floor in there, I’d seen a lot of stuff on the floor as a district committeeman, some good and some bad. I was under some committee, top committeeman that were terrific people and there were some that weren’t worth a damn, you know. With – I imagine that happens anytime, you know. [chuckling] [sniffling] Doug Rademacher: [38:12] Would you please, uh, tell us a little bit about how you got involved with the union? You said they didn’t approach you. Tell us... Richard Sandborn: Have you, have you interviewed Lloyd Cain yet? Cheryl McQuaid: No. Doug Rademacher: No. We haven’t gotten Lloyd yet. Richard Sandborn: Oh. Okay. He’s how, he’s [inaudible 38:26] I got involved. Doug Rademacher: [38:28] Well, tell us about that. Richard Sandborn: Well, I’m gettin’ ahead of myself. He, he, he’s the one that got me involved as far as bein’ president of the Local. You want me to go back to the other alternate committeeman and district before? Doug Rademacher: All right. Richard Sandborn: [Inaudible 38:41]. Doug Rademacher: [38:41] What made you want to be an alternate or a committeeman? Richard Sandborn: I just felt it was something, you know, that looked interesting to me and, and I, I felt the people needed representation, you know, somebody to talk for them. I didn’t – I can’t remember who the guy was that I run against. I didn’t think he was doin’ his job, so I just run and won. Doug Rademacher: Okay, now... Richard Sandborn: Now many a time when we had, we’d have a committeeman in the front of the body shop and one in the back. When they’d have a cutback, then they’d go by seniority and one of them committeemen you might lose your job for three or four months or a year or something then you’d have to go back to work on your job, the district committeemen. Doug Rademacher: And you served as an... Richard Sandborn: And you had... Doug Rademacher: ...alternate. Richard Sandborn: ...you had to go back into work. If you didn’t have a call, you was in there wearin’ a hood. You better have, that foreman better, you know, [inaudible 39:37] took the calls, he’d have, uh, names on the people, you better have a legitimate reason to get out there and take that call. [Inaudible 39:45] 8 hours, your, your butt’s right back on the line for the next 2 ½ hours if they go 10 ½ hours. There’s no hanging out in the Work Center [inaudible 39:53]. You know what I’m talking about? Doug Rademacher: Oh yeah. I do know what you’re sayin’ here. And, uh... Richard Sandborn: And they would, they would make damn sure, you know. Management wasn’t easy with union at all. It was hard fought everything we had to do. Doug Rademacher: So you felt, uh, the people needed a voice, you ran and thought you could do a better job and you got elected, you moved up to committeeman. [40:20] Um, did you consider shop chair and then what made you...? Richard Sandborn: No, no. Doug Rademacher: ...run for president? Richard Sandborn: Well, uh, I got appointed as a shop committeeman for the, for the night shift, you know. The, the other committeeman [inaudible 40:34] district and shop committeeman and I was part-time shop committeeman, you know, not, not where I could serve on the executive board or nothin’ but I was shop committeeman there and then, uh, that was that. And then I was trustee of the Local at the time, 19-, hm. I was talkin’ to my wife about this too. [chuckling] 1966 I was trustee of the Local and Lloyd Cain talked me into or sixty-, sixty-, ’65 he talked me into runnin’ for vice president with him. I said, “Lloyd, are you gonna, you gonna” – because there was an openin’ coming up on the staff. I said, “You’re gonna be around here, ain’t you? You ain’t gonna be goin’ down to staff and stuff and dump this on me because I, I just got this farm where I’m at now.” And I was farmin’ too, you know, and I didn’t want a job that would tie me up a lot. He said, “Oh yeah, I’ll finish up the one term.” Well, he was, if you look on your wall out here, you see [inaudible 41:39] six months and he dumped the presidency on me and I – he called me and he had to, he had to call me into the union hall to convince me to take the presidency ‘cause I was about ready to drop out of it all together then, so then I went on to become president. Doug Rademacher: And I do look at that picture up there and I you were re-elected three times after that. Richard Sandborn: Four times. Doug Rademacher: Four times. Richard Sandborn: Joe Santoro run against me, [inaudible 42:08], a guy by the name of [Charlie Harper 42:11] who still works at, works at Fisher Body. He’s got a place out here in Eagle sellin’ cars and stuff [inaudible 42:18] who died not too long ago. Doug Rademacher: [Inaudible 42:23]. Richard Sandborn: Ex-foreman or ex-supervisor at one time. Doug Rademacher: So Lloyd left you that and, um... Richard Sandborn: Yeah. And I, I, I’ve told him about that many times. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: [42:35] You, you still speak to Lloyd? Richard Sandborn: [Inaudible 42:35]. [laughter] Yeah. Doug Rademacher: But you must... Richard Sandborn: We, we had some terrific International Union reps. I don’t know what the caliber of’m today but I know for a while we didn’t have the best around but we had [inaudible 42:48] from 652. He was a fighter for the people in the plant. I mean he’d get right down there nose to nose for you, do anything. And Jim Ramey, who is still active in the Democrat Party and stuff, he’s a tremendous guy. I really liked both of’m. I think they’re terrific people. Even though where they’re from, another Local 652, I don’t think you could beat’m. In fact I seen him the other day, Jim Ramey, on TV runnin’ Walmart down, terrific, you know. [chuckling] Yeah. Doug Rademacher: Still fighting the battle... Richard Sandborn: Still fighting for the people. Doug Rademacher: ...for the working man. Richard Sandborn: And the Democrat Party. There’s nobody, anybody more dedicated than he was. [coughing] [clicking] Doug Rademacher: [43:31] Um, can you share with us, uh, as we go back inside the plant in a, on a regular day, what did you do for lunch? You said you rode in with people. Did you guys do lunch together? Richard Sandborn: Uh, we brown bagged it, you know, put it in a paper sack. [Inaudible 43:49] you, you could go to the cafeteria if you wanted to get sick later on or somethin’, you know. Most people didn’t want to really go there. Doug Rademacher: You say... Richard Sandborn: The food wasn’t that good. Doug Rademacher: The food [chuckling] wasn’t that good. If you wanted to get sick later, huh, that’s pretty good. Richard Sandborn: [44:03] Where was it located, the cafeteria? Richard Sandborn: It was up on, uh, well, at first it was on the ground floor. It was on the ground floor for a while then they moved it upstairs there. You had to go up that escalator by the body shop office right up there. [coughing] There was some people that I’m sure that used to get away with a lot of stuff, guys on the line some of’m would cover [coughing] for another guy’s job [inaudible 44:31] be up there playing cards maybe sometimes or over at Harry’s taking a double lunch hour, you know, if you go out in the body shop, come back in Trim. That was a common thing in some areas especially if you have [coughing] a supervisor [inaudible 44:44]. [coughing] I never could do it bein’ the union guy, you know, but I knew guys that did it [sniffling] because that was their pets, you know. Doug Rademacher: Well, you just shared... Richard Sandborn: We called’m brown nosers or I don’t know what you call’m nowadays but we called’m different things. [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: You just shared about extended lunches. There’s a place across the street that’s from the Fisher Body plant. It’s been there ever since it was, uh, Durant Motor Works. It was called Harry’s. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [45:14] Can you tell about Harry’s Place? Did you ever go there and, and what went, what went on there and talk about that a minute? Richard Sandborn: [chuckling] You ever go there, Doug? [chuckling] Doug Rademacher: Absolutely. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. I went there different times. [sniffling] Usually I went there not when I was workin’ too much. I went over there at different times when I was president of the union and stuff or, uh, chairman of the shop committee we’d go over there, you know, sit around the table, talk and stuff. I even had a few beers, maybe a good hamburger. They used to have good hamburgers over there, good food. I think the guy’s name was Gus, am I right? Is that the guy that used to run it, one of’m? Doug Rademacher: Gus was one of’m. Yeah. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. He was a real, real nice guy. Then a lotta times we would go down to the Irish Pub. We’d, uh, hung out down there a lot. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Richard Sandborn: But I never went over there when I was workin’ on the line though, very seldom. I, in fact, I, I didn’t believe in it, you know, goin’ over there and taking a double lunch hour ‘cause I didn’t think you should do that. Not for – not act like [inaudible 46:25] guy but I just didn’t think it was right that you should be doin’ that. Doug Rademacher: You wanted to provide for your family, so there’s no reason to get caught doin’ somethin’ where you could jeopardize that. Richard Sandborn: Oh, there was a lot of things that people used to do to get jeopardized for stealing. I’ve run into that a lot when I was chairman of the shop committee or president of the Local. I had many a person come up here to the, the union hall, break down and cry ‘cause they’d lost their job, wanted it back. Sometimes they’d bring their wife with them or kids, [inaudible 47:00] make you cry to have to give’m the good news or bad news, you know, whichever it happened to be. It was rough. Doug Rademacher: [47:09] Can you remember a particular not necessarily name but can you remember a time where you helped someone that stands out in your mind? Richard Sandborn: Yeah. I helped a lot of’m, an awful lot in 1970 during the strike, which was ni-, ni-, 90-some days. We had, we had one guy, I can say his name ‘cause he passed away now, I don’t think he would care, [Gus Galinaitis 47:35] was his name. He worked in, uh, he was a, he lived on East Grand River about five, six miles from me. I didn’t know him real good but he was, uh, from Lithuania and he had a hard life and stuff and so I would kinda – he was in the sanitation department ridin’ one of them sweepers around, you know. Male: I know who he is. Richard Sandborn: Do you know him? Male: Yeah. Richard Sandborn: Remember? Oh. Male: Yeah. Richard Sandborn: Okay, so you know. And he’d been there I think he had just a little over 30 years and I knew he had a little problem. He’s, he’s a little light-fingered, you know. And he was a terrific guy for sellin’ you pop on the night shift, third shift. He’d bring a case. He’d go to Horrocks Market out here in Saginaw and he’d buy pop at a real cheap price and bring it in and sell the cans of pop, you know, to the guys on the line then he’d take the empties back in a big plastic bag, huge plastic bag. And one night for some reason I think they knew what was goin’ on but for some reason somebody either ratted on him or Plant Protection or somebody wanted to turn him in. They stopped him at the gate, made him open the bag up and in the center of the bag where the police in there couldn’t see, you know, guards, was a big air motor come out of the Paint department. So they immediately held him up there then they went out and searched his home and he had quite a few different things out there, so they fired him right on the spot, you know. And we, we couldn’t get his job back but we finally got management – I wasn’t, I wasn’t chairman then. I think [Bob Sanders 49:22] was chairman then. But they got management to agree to let him have his full retirement, which meant a hell of a lot to him, you know. Although he’s passed away now at an early age, he enjoyed quite a few years of [inaudible 49:35] retirement. He always [inaudible 49:36] the union up too. He was, he was kind of a funny talker. He, he was an alcoholic to start out with but he took the cure and went through it. Turned out to be a hell of a good guy. He had a brother, [Bill Galinaitis 49:47] who worked out in, uh, where was it? Material Control I think. He’s still alive. He’s still alive. In fact, he used – him and Gus and Bill used to, we’d, we always felt sorry for him so my wife and I when we’d go to the Fisher reunion, they, they got a place down in East Bay in Florida about, about 100 miles away, about 40 miles from Bradenton. We’d go down there and we’d pick these two guys up because we felt sorry for them, you know, that, that kind of was underprivileged people, you know, [inaudible 50:20]. We’d take him to that picnic. They enjoyed that. I never [inaudible 50:25]. We’d all have to furnish our own meat and stuff or food there, you know. Not – we’d bring meat for additional. I think the union paid for part of the meat and stuff. Uh, Bill and Gus would buy Kentucky Fried Chicken, you know, real fresh chicken, a bucket of it, and then when we got to where the meetin’ was, they’d have you open the trunk up and they had a little cooler deal, they’d take half of that out, put it in the cooler for themselves for later. [chuckling] I never forget that. They always did that. You know, them little things you don’t, you don’t forget but where I laid a screwdriver down yesterday I don’t know where it is, you know. Doug Rademacher: Yeah. [chuckling] [51:09] So, um, what was the worst thing that ever happened under your presidency that you can remember? Richard Sandborn: I think the 1970 strike. That was terrible. We had people, uh, I can’t tell, quote their names from the International Union that kinda wanted to make you go right by the book. You know, if they didn’t come in and perform their duty, it was over the strike committee, you know, the funds and stuff, they had, they wouldn’t get no, no check. And that’s, you know, we’d, we’d kinda review every case where they had hardships and stuff, we’d try to cover for everybody 100%, you know, because we figured, hey, we were payin’ in the International Union Fu-, Strike Fund all the time, why shouldn’t all, all of’m get it? And it was kind of a constant fight with the – and even some of the people in, uh, that run, uh, oh, I don’t – not community service, whatever they call it here in Lansing now. Doug Rademacher: Uh... Richard Sandborn: [Inaudible 52:10] was head of it one time. He was a fairly good guy but this guy ahead wasn’t too good. They were kind of, when you refer people over there for help, you know, we didn’t feel they would give’m a fair shake and stuff. It always seemed to be like 652 got whatever they wanted and we’d get what was left if there was anything, wheat in the chaff, you know, all them deals. That’s the way we always felt anyway. I did as a [inaudible 52:35]. Doug Rademacher: [52:36] Did you ever have any battles with the International on the – as far as trying to, uh, do the best job for your [inaudible 52:43]? Richard Sandborn: Well, we had 30 and Out, we had to fight for that. We had to speak at the conventions for it, you know, when they had their different conventions. And, uh, well, first we had to get – it started out about Flint, Jack Wagner. I don’t know if anybody remember him. He was the, uh, guy that was, uh, runnin’ against [Don Ellis 53:03] for regional director who used – I think, I don’t know, I think he’s passed away now, Don Ellis but Jack kinda stirred it up on 30 and Out. He was what they called a rabble-rouser. Come out of, uh, five-, 599 I think it is, Flint, the Buick Local anyway. Doug Rademacher: Right. Richard Sandborn: And he kept stirrin’ this up at different conventions we had and stuff and finally they, they got enough pressure on there and asked the union to start down to 30 and Out. We got buttons. We had everything. We got it all organized and they got it in negotiation. That’s one reason that I, when I retired I said I was, was gonna, I was gonna practice what I preach. I had 30.1 years and I left. I physically and mentally I could have stayed for another 10 years but I didn’t believe I should do it. I had a lot of other union officers who stayed right there. Some of them stayed 40, 50 years. Doug Rademacher: Well, it’s a major concern for us in the upcoming, uh, negotiations is whether or not they’re going to try to go after that 30 and Out, so I appreciate all you did to, to, uh, establish it and hopefully we can retain it. Richard Sandborn: You guys got a rough job ahead of you. I, I feel for you ‘cause it, it isn’t the union’s fault or it isn’t totally management’s fault. All you got to do is go right down to Washington D.C. and you’ll find out whose fault it is, just like with the gas prices right nowadays. It’s, it’s just terrible, you know, and the prices [inaudible 54:34] go up but if you’re a retired guy or if you’re just drawing a 40-hour check and maybe they take a $5.00 pay cut, uh, which Delphi I guess they’re gonna try to get them to do. And they all, there’s on news comin’ in that they, uh, one International Union I guess walked out their electrical workers or somethin’ I heard that today. It’s rough and there’s a lot of people like you say [inaudible 54:59] earlier there, they got resentment against the union. They think the unions give way too much but, hey, the union had to do a lot of this to even have anything, survive. You could point, in my opinion, you could point all the way back when Ronald Reagan was president with the air controllers. That started the whole damn thing. They walked out. What did he do? Fired’m all, hired all scabs. Doug Rademacher: Yes. That’s [inaudible 55:22]. Richard Sandborn: And that trick-, and he had that old trickle-down effect, yeah. But yet I watch a TV show the other day and they had four presidents on there, they had Abraham Lincoln, Ronald Reagan, Jack Kennedy and FDR and who do you think was the most popular president of them? This gal who was a contestant she figured FDR and I did too. Ronald Reagan [chuckling] was the most popular president ‘cause he was a movie star and all that horse [swearing]. Doug Rademacher: TV exposure. Well, I’m going to lead you back to a little, uh... Richard Sandborn: I’m gettin’ carried away [inaudible 55:55]. Doug Rademacher: That’s all right. [chuckling] Um, Lansing Fisher Body was recognized as the Capital of Quality, uh, not only around the country but around the world. [56:09] What do you think was the key to that? Richard Sandborn: Well, their workforce is the main thing, you know. They had good workers. There’s no doubt about it. You, you had a few that were, didn’t wanna come to work maybe, you know, but the, the union negotiated the relief agreement and extra [inaudible 56:27], you know, and covered things for jobs and I think that helps a lot. But mostly your workforce and as time progressed I think you had a little bit better management too than what they used to be. Doug Rademacher: Uh, you drove up today, I don’t know had you seen it before but the place is coming down now. The, uh, machines... Richard Sandborn: I want a brick. Doug Rademacher: ...are out there and, uh – you want a brick. [56:54] Tell me what’s it, what’s it feel like after having put your 30 years in and to see it this way now? Richard Sandborn: Rough really ‘cause I used to – when I was a shop committeeman and top committeeman naturally you got to work [inaudible 57:10] especially top committeeman, chairman, you know, and I used to go out on 3X out there where you could work, uh, look at the floor there and see [inaudible 57:22] playin’ football and all that. And I was there when the whole front of the plant was all tore out and the whole brand new front was put in. In fact, I got pictures of that and if I find it I’ll, I’ll bring’m into you, you know. It was – and the fact that it’s gone it’s just you can’t really believe it, you know. When you got a, a badge, I got a badge at home, you know, when I was hired in, that little old badge, the union card yet. I still got my union card. Makes you [inaudible 57:54] cry sometimes, you know. And I keep tryin’ to tell some of the younger ones, like my son-in-law hired in in ’81, you might better start lookin’ around. I said, hey, when that stock market from GM goes down, when I was there and I had stock in General Motors and I retired and I [inaudible 58:17] need some money ‘cause we just bought a, I didn’t want to do it but my wife wanted to buy a cottage up at Crystal Lake and you imagine buying one when you drop 50,000 a year I was makin then ‘cause I was workin’ all kinds of hours, you know, down to 25, 20, 25. [chuckling] That I never thought I could swing, you know, but we did. Doug Rademacher: So you’ve enjoyed your retirement. Um, well, we’ve asked a lot of things. [58:46] Is there anything we’ve missed today that you’d like to share? And what, what do you want to tell the young people? Richard Sandborn: I, I think a lot, a lot of the 1970s strike I think when I was lucky enough to be president of the Local though sometimes it used to bother me a lot because I’ve seen a lot of things that people sacrificed for, you know, lost a lot of money but they got a lot of benefits for the people back then. We had to set the pattern. And GM was the target and usually, uh, the union don’t like to take on GM very often because it’s awful costly when they take on GM for a strike and they try to I’m sure keep away from but that time they did and they, they, I thought they gained a tremendous amount of stuff. It’s bad that we have to start losing some of that but in the same time you got to be able to at least have somethin’ work for us because the total amount of what I’ve read in the newspapers and stuff and heard, total amount of people unionized is going down tremendously. And you, then you got a spinoff here of other unions that got out of the mainstream, the Teamsters and three or four others are formin’ their other little agreement. Gonna I understand put out a big notice indicatin’ how these millionaire or billionaires are gettin’ paid off, you know, which is I think good and I think the UAW ought to be pushin’ that issue more of the, the big, and the Democrat Party too instead of sometimes sittin’ idly by. When I happened to watch this morning when Bush was talkin’ to on TV – not that I like to watch Bush ‘cause I hate the guy to watch. He’s just a sarcastic SOB to me. Reid, who’s head of the Democrat Party, and Bush was talkin’ about the, uh, price of gas and stuff, what’s Reid doin’? Noddin’ his damn head yes, you know, more or less agreein’. I know he’s sittin’ by the president but why don’t he just sat there not sayin’, not, you know, not nod your head at least ‘cause to me it makes me think he’s kinda goin’ along with him in the background and I don’t see him out there talkin’ too much against. Some of’m now are startin’ too, you know. You got Senator Kennedy, Ted Kennedy. And the Kennedys to me was the only thing there ever was. I worshipped them. I remember going home after work crying the day he died, he got shot. I’ve seen him at conventions, President Kennedy and I’ve see Bobby Kennedy, Ted Kennedy, they all addressed the conventions. But I think gettin’ back to what you [inaudible 61:23] me what I had, was the most, one of the most best things I’ve ever seen was Walter Reuther. That was when they started Black Lake up there. We was one of the first bunch that went up there and we went in there at the Black Lake Educational Center. I was president of the Local then, [John Lewis 61:43] was financial secretary. We went in there and the first thing they did, they make, they made us all put on hardhats and Walter walked around there with Emil Mazey who was financial secretary then ‘cause they had Mazey’s Bar. I don’t know if that’s still there yet. Jerri Smith: Yep. Richard Sandborn: Is it? Jerri Smith: Yep. [chuckling] Richard Sandborn: And we got to visit that but we was just amazed, the union presidents, at the way that was designed that, number one, no paint then. No paint nowhere and they had everything was built around the trees, you know, everything was built around the trees. We were right there when they, they were still finishin’ the buildings yet. That to me really impressed me and I thought the world of Walter Reuther. And I always thought the government used, it was unfair when they went after his brother, Victor Reuther, you know. And then when Walter and May Reuther got killed in a plane crash that, that bothered me a lot too. I got, you know, I ate dinners, you know, in the same area with them different times. And there was never another leader like Walter Reuther. I always think the closest one to him was Leonard Woodcock. Some of’m that were leaders, Owen Bieber, I didn’t have too much use for him. I thought he was a company man. Am I speakin’ out of turn [inaudible 63:00]? Doug Rademacher: No. You’re welcome to say anything you like. Richard Sandborn: Some of them higher ups I didn’t feel, uh, took the average workers point of view too strong. And I did, one other thing we did get to do when I was a shop chairman what I thought was quite interesting, we had one guy on the sh-, shop committee named [Ralph Best 63:19], he, uh, knew [Ken Bidwell 63:22] who was plant manager at that time, he had a place out in Arizona. Jerri Smith: We’re reachin’ 20. Cheryl McQuaid: Okay. Keep goin’, go on. Richard Sandborn: He had a place out in Arizona and, uh, they wanted, uh, he wanted us to go to, to play golf with the, with the plant manager ‘cause he, he knew him pretty well, you know. We went up to his house and thank god he wasn’t there that day ‘cause most of us didn’t want to go play golf with the plant manager [chuckling] bein’ union official but there’s , there’s always them little side things, you know. But we enjoyed, uh, the union, uh, really made me, uh, uh – a farm boy I’m talkin’ about, you know, come from a Republican family. My dad was [inaudible 64:10] and never started drawin’ a social security check till he was 72 years old. Made me look at a different point of view. Because I got lucky enough, I always kept track, I got enough time in there, I went to 21 different states, you know, as flyin’ all over the country, you know. There’s one thing Walter Reuther would never take you, he would never go to Florida, no way, because that was where the head of AFL-CIO was then and they was, I think it was George Meany if I’m not mistaken. I think he was the head of it and they, they lived lavishly down there, you know. Walter said, “Uh-uh, you guys ain’t gonna do that.” We went to other places, Chicago. We got to go to San Francisco, to LA, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Cleveland. A lot of stories about them places. [chuckling] A lot of tickets, [chuckling] some of them he paid for you. [chuckling] I remember makin’ a U-turn in Philadelphia. Wife said I couldn’t. The shop chairman, Bob Sanders, his wife with him, I made a U-turn. I wasn’t supposed to make a U-turn. They wrote me out a ticket and told me, I had Michigan plates on, I had to pay it [inaudible 65:23] time. I didn’t pay it and I ain’t paid it yet but I talked to a guy down [inaudible 65:29] the park I’m at from Pennsylvania. He says if you ever got, get stopped in Pennsylvania again, you pay it... Doug Rademacher: [Inaudible 65:35]. Richard Sandborn: ...’cause it will be on your record. [laughter] You’ll pay the interest probably. That’s just a side note, you know. Doug Rademacher: Well, you’ve put a lot of years in and we definitely appreciate your interview and all you’ve done for the labor movement and taken the time. You just got back from your, your vacation or your, your winter home and we appreciate you comin’ on in and hope to see you at, uh, the Christmas parties and the picnics and continue to be active and supportin’ us and... Richard Sandborn: I don’t know. Doug Rademacher: ...we’ll continue to do our part. Richard Sandborn: I don’t know if Dorothy would want me [inaudible 66:08]. Cheryl McQuaid: [laughter] I’m sure she does. Thank you, sir. Male: Thank you. Richard Sandborn: Yeah. It’s just been a lot of fun. Um, um, for the union, uh, union can never do you any more than it has for me, you know. It’s just been tremendous. I owe everything to them that I got now, a lot of, most of it. I got a, I got a cottage at Crystal Lake. I got a [inaudible 66:34] new motorhome or a mobile home I mean in Florida. And I got a hundred and, 140 acres of land and I still farm 40 acres of it, combine my corn with a two-row combine, the only one in Ionia County. I rent out most of it but I still, I raise sheep. I got a bunch of sheep around there. I enjoy it. Doug Rademacher: Well, it’s definitely been [inaudible 67:01]. Jerri Smith: Thank you. Yes. Richard Sandborn: Last year, when I came back from Florida I had a pacemaker put in me twice. [chuckling] Now hopefully this thing is straightened out. Doug Rademacher: Well, you keep tickin’ and, and we’ll keep, we’ll keep, uh... Richard Sandborn: [Inaudible 67:14]. Doug Rademacher: ...we’ll keep workin’ for you. Richard Sandborn: I didn’t mean to hold you up all this time. Doug Rademacher: Oh no. Jerri Smith: We’ve enjoyed it. Thank you. John Fedewa: Thank you. Doug Rademacher: Appreciate you giving us time. Richard Sandborn: I enjoyed lettin’ it out. Doug Rademacher: Oh, it’s great to have you. Richard Sandborn: I appreciate having your offer. /mlc