Shirley Sanborn discusses her career as a GM salaried secretary at the Fisher Body plant in Lansing, MI Doreen Howard: [recorder clicking] Okay. [clicking] Linda Johnson: This is [clicking] February 7th. It's [clicking] Mond-, oh, excu-, let's start over. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: It's okay [inaudible 0:08]. [laughter] Linda Johnson: I was [inaudible 0:10]. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: We'll cut that. [laughter] Linda Johnson: It's November 7th, 2005. [clicking] It is [clicking] Tuesday, Monday. Male: [Inaudible 0:17]. [clicking] Female: I'm doin' [whistling] good. [laughter] [clicking] But I know [whistling] I'm here with Shirley Sanborn and the members of the Fisher Body History Team. [clicking] And present today from the team [clicking] includes... Doreen Howard: Doreen Howard. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: Doug Rademacher. [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Marilyn Coulter. John Fedewa: John Fedewa. Cheryl McQuaid: Cheryl McQuaid. [background movement] Linda Johnson: And I'm Linda Johnson, and we're here to interview, as I said, Shirley Sanborn. [creaking] [0:39] Shirley, could you, um, spell your last – state your name and spell your [background movement] last name for me? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Shirley Sanborn, S-A-N-B-O-R-N. [clicking] [creaking] Linda Johnson: [0:48] And [creaking] you live where? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: 13835 Thornapple Drive, Perry, [thumping] Michigan [clicking] 48872. [clicking] Linda Johnson: [0:57] And Shir-, Sh-, Shirley, [clicking] can, um, [tsk] you tell us, um, a little bit about [clicking] yourself, your education, your, um, [clicking] family life [clicking] before [rustling] and when you hired in [thumping] to Fisher Body? Doug Rademacher: Maybe one at a time. Linda Johnson: One at a time. [laughter] Female: One. [background noises] Shirley Sanborn: When I graduated from high school, well Eastern High School, in 1947, I went to work for Interstate Motor Freight Company on [inaudible 1:26] Street. [clicking] I worked there 2 years and, um, [tsk] met my [clicking] future husband there, s-, m-, [Carol McGiven 1:37]. [clicking] [tsk] And, uh, I [clicking] talked on the phone with a man by the name [clicking] of [Clyde Miller 1:44], who worked in Material Control Department, [thumping] and he had a lady in his office that quit workin'. He said, "Why don't you come over and apply for the job?" And I said, "Why not?" I was makin' peanuts at Interstate, you know, [background movement] like 45 cents an hour at that... Linda Johnson: Wow. Shirley Sanborn: ...point in time. [knocking] And, uh, I came over here, and [scratching] they hired me. [clicking] Linda Johnson: What... Shirley Sanborn: I started on July 1st, 1949, and had Monday off for the 4th of July, so... Linda Johnson: What a deal. [laughter] Female: What a deal. [laughter] Linda Johnson: Did they pay better here? [laughter] Shirley Sanborn: $180 a month. Female: Hm. [laughter] [thumping] Linda Johnson: Well that's... Shirley Sanborn: If you call that better. [clanking] Well it was better than I was making. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: And, uh, [laughter] [clicking] then I, uh, I worked in Material Control until, um, well Mike and I got married [scratching] [tsk] in October of '51, [creaking] [clicking] and, um, I was – [thumping] at that point, I was pre-, already [clicking] pregnant at that time. I had my son, [Steven 2:44], in [background movement] May of '52, [clicking] [tsk] and I didn't come ba-, they called me, but I didn't wanna come back to work at that point in time. [tsk] But then [clicking] in 1955 they called, and they had a sick leave replacement for [Caroline Steeb 3:01], who worked in Quality Control at that time. [clicking] So I said, "Okay, why not?" you know. [clicking] Two incomes are better than one. [tsk] [clanking] And, uh, so I came to replace her on sick leave, and then [tsk] they had an opening in, uh, [clanking] what was in the Teletype Room up [clicking] at the north end of the plant. [George Noos 3:22] was the supervisor at that, of that. [clicking] So I went up there and worked in Teletype until [squeaking] George Noos' [clicking] secretary, [Virginia Watkins 3:30], [squeaking] went, left on pregnancy leave. [clicking] [creaking] So I went in and worked for George Noos until [clicking] whenever. [clicking] I don't remember the dates. [clicking] [Tell me. 3:39] [clicking] [Oh, 3:41] '69, I transferred to... Linda Johnson: Yep, [clicking] to Engineering... Shirley Sanborn: Well, you know, they... Linda Johnson: ...[yeah, for 3:45] consolidation... Shirley Sanborn: ...they consolidated the... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...the Sanitation ter-, [clanking] Department and Waste [thumping] Control in with Maintenance. [scratching] [clicking] Linda Johnson: Hm. Shirley Sanborn: And, uh, [scratching] [thumping] [clicking] [tsk] then I – [thumping] the person they had workin' [inaudible 3:58] a kid, a [clicking] man by the name of [John Boris 4:00] was a [background movement] total loser, [clicking] so [clicking] they were tryin' to figure [thumping] out how ta, [laughter] [clicking] how ta [clicking] get rid of him. [thumping] [tsk] They finally succeeded, bought him off, I guess. Linda Johnson: Hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: So then I went into, uh, Engineering and worked [thumping] for s-, [coughing] the engineer at that time was [Lee Reese 4:23]. [clicking] I worked in there with him until, um, [clicking] he retired. [clicking] Then [Leonard Varma 4:31] took over the duties [rustling] there and, and, um, [clicking] that's wh-, where I stayed until I retired. [clicking] Linda Johnson: [4:38] And that was, you [thumping] retired in... Shirley Sanborn: [tsk] I retired officially on January 1st of, [thumping] uh, 1993. [thumping] I left on [clicking] December 1st of '92. [clicking] They had what they [clicking] called a [clicking] golden handshake at that time, so [scratching] [clicking] if I volunteered to retire at that point in time, I got paid like [clicking] $20,000 or something like that, so... Linda Johnson: Oh, great. [throat clearing] Shirley Sanborn: ...but I had to take the [scratching] month without pay. [clicking] Big deal. Linda Johnson: Yeah. Shirley Sanborn: So that's what I did. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: [tsk] So I officially retired on January [scratching] 1st, 1993. Since that time, I've – [clicking] well my mother and dad had a cottage at Littlefield Lake up north. And my [clicking] mother died in June 1995, [clicking] and [tsk] I bought my brother's part of the cottage up there and, and, uh, so now I have a [clicking] cottage at Littlefield Lake where I spend most a the summers. And my son [clicking] bought, built a cottage right next to mine, so we're all up there... Linda Johnson: Oh, that's [thumping] nice. Shirley Sanborn: ...havin' a good time. My son is a teacher at Okemos, and his wife is a teacher at DeWitt. And they have 3 kids, my 3 grandchildren, and that's all I have. [sniffing] Linda Johnson: That's great. [coughing] Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 5:54]. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Oh, yeah, right. [laughter] Marilyn Coulter: You just opened the box. [laughter] Shirley Sanborn: Oh, okay. [laughter] [background conversation] Linda Johnson: Okay. [coughing] [thumping] [6:05] When you came ta work here in [clicking] '49, um, [thumping] how were you treated as a woman working in a plant in a [man's world 6:11]... Shirley Sanborn: Like a peon. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Like a [coughing] peon. [clicking] [coughing] [6:14] Did they have dress codes for you or... [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Well you weren't allowed to wear [clicking] blue jeans or pant suits. You had to wear skirts and blouses and [clicking] [tsk] stuff like that. Linda Johnson: Hm. Shirley Sanborn: They didn't [clicking] l-, let us wear [background movement] pant suits until [tsk] 1970 or thereabouts. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [thumping] Um... Shirley Sanborn: [Then 6:34] there was no blue jeans. I mean, it was strictly... Linda Johnson: Uh-huh. [clicking] [6:37] Dress clothes? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Dressy plant, pant suits. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [background movement] [6:41] And, um, as a [background movement] woman in the plant, did, were you [accorded 6:45] the same – [background movement] when they had parties and stuff, were you [thumping] a participant in it, [throat clearing] or I'd heard from some women that, you know, they would plan a party for a, [clicking] a group of men, but the women in the department [clicking] weren't invited, [clicking] that personnel used to be that way. Shirley Sanborn: Well [background movement] the [clicking] company used to give the women Christmas parties, and, and men weren't invited to those. Linda Johnson: Okay. Shirley Sanborn: [And then 7:11]... Linda Johnson: So [inaudible 7:12]... Shirley Sanborn: ...just women. [clicking] So I guess it evened out. Linda Johnson: All right. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: It didn't – when Oldsmobile gave parties, [give'm 7:18] down at the Civic Center, then everybody went, and they gave... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...out [clicking] turkeys or whatever, but that brings up a whole different subject. Linda Johnson: Yeah. [laughter] Different, different culture. [laughter] Female: [Inaudible 7:29] culture. Linda Johnson: Um, [where was I goin'? 7:34] [background movement] [7:37] When, um [tsk] you first started in here, what, what did you feel like when you walked into the plant, into an assembly plant? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: [tsk] I worked in the office all the while I was here, and if, the only time I went out in the plant was if, [clicking] just nosin' around. Uh, I had no business being out there. Linda Johnson: Oh. [7:57] They let you know that or... Shirley Sanborn: No. Linda Johnson: ...didn't care to? Shirley Sanborn: No. They just – [clicking] well you had to walk, [thumping] at one point in time, you headed from the, [over to 8:04] the front offices at that time, [clicking] and you had to [clicking] walk through a tunnel and past the Paint [Booths 8:10] to get to Building 9 offices... [clicking] Linda Johnson: Oh. Shirley Sanborn: ...so that was about the [thumping] extent of my [clicking] vision in the plant at that... [clicking] Linda Johnson: Well most... Shirley Sanborn: ... point in time. Linda Johnson: ...of this plant's kind of grown up around you over the years. Shirley Sanborn: Oh, yes. Well yeah. They eliminated the whole Paint Department, and [thumping] I worked here during the construction of the whole, [scratching] whole new Body Shop, Paint Shop. [clicking] That was a big deal, really big deal. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [clicking] Working for Mr. Varma [clicking] and... [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Yeah. Most of the people [scratching] came in from [clicking] [Works 8:43] Engineering [and 8:44] [clicking] Fisher Body General Offices, and they did [clicking] most of the contracting and, uh, [clicking] put out the bids. And we had people here from [Works 8:53] Engineering [that – Su-, 8:55] my friend, Su-, well [Susan Sites 8:59] now. She hired in through [– replaced me as 9:01] vacation replacement. Then she stayed on [background movement] as the [clicking] construction clerk type a thing, [clicking] did all that. So [thumping] we worked together, and [clicking] we'd have to prepare all the, all the, uh, [clicking] bid proposals, assemble all the [clicking] stacks and stacks of proposals. And [clicking] then [Frank Malvic 9:25] was a construction engineer at that time, and he'd meet with [clicking] bidders and [scratching] contractors and sh-, show'm what needed to be done and, [thumping] and go on from there. Linda Johnson: Wow. Sounds like a lotta work... [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: It was a lot of work. [thumping] Linda Johnson: ...for 2 people. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Yeah, right. [laughter] Linda Johnson: Women's work. [clicking] [coughing] Shirley Sanborn: Women's work. Well that's what [knocking] Varma told me one time. [knocking] He says, "You make good money for a woman." [laughter] [thumping] I said, "[Well I make 9:53] good money for a man," at that [laughter] point in time, you know. [laughter] [clicking] Female: Yeah. [scratching] Shirley Sanborn: ['Cause I was still – 9:58] when I retired, I was makin' [thumping] $3,000 a month, so [thumping] that wasn't bad [thumping] for a woman. [thumping] [laughter] Not bad for a man, either. [laughter] Linda Johnson: No. [thumping] Still isn't. Shirley Sanborn: Especially outside the plant. [laughter] [clicking] [coughing] Linda Johnson: [10:12] Over the years of, [thumping] uh, women coming into the plant, you were probably, [background movement] there weren't a whole lot of you [knocking] back in 1949, [clicking] were there, [clicking] working? Shirley Sanborn: There were a lot of women here. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Were there? Shirley Sanborn: A lot of women. [background movement] There was probably 40 or 50 women in the company, um, up front and... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: They had all keypunch operators and... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...computer s-, com-, not computer, um, comptroller women that... [clicking] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...they did all the payrolls. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: And they figured it... Linda Johnson: [10:37] All that was done right here? [thumping] Shirley Sanborn: That was done right here, and they did'm all on, [clicking] on [knocking] plant calculators, and... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [scratching] [clicking] Hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...yeah. They had, then they had an Addressograph Room where they [clicking] did all the addressograph stuff and did all the time [thumping] cards and everything. And there [clicking] were a lotta women here at that point... Linda Johnson: [10:54] So that was... Shirley Sanborn: ...in time. Linda Johnson: ...quite a process back then. Shirley Sanborn: Oh, yes. [clicking] Linda Johnson: And... Shirley Sanborn: That was before data processing. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: Before computers. Linda Johnson: So okay. [clicking] [Inaudible 11:06] Doreen Howard. Doreen Howard: [throat clearing] [clicking] [11:11] At what, um, time frame did a lot of the changes come into effect in, [background movement] as far as the data processing and, [scratching] and things like that? Shirley Sanborn: Biggest change came about when they combined Oldsmobile [scratching] and Fisher Body. [clicking] Doreen Howard: [11:25] And what [clicking] was it that, that they [background movement] changed at that time? [scratching] [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Well they started transferring [knocking] people between plants. People that had worked here for [clicking] 25, 30 [knocking] years were suddenly [knocking] shuffled off to Buffalo. [background noises] And, of course, people that worked at Oldsmobile [always 11:39] – [background movement] should I say it? [laughter] Female: Say it, yes. Shirley Sanborn: They always thought they were better than the Fisher Body people [background conversation], so being – [clicking] for them to be transferred over [knocking] to Fisher Body was like [knocking] kick in the seat 'cause they [background conversation] didn't want any part of us, and they were [clicking] [background conversation] better than us... Female: Mm-hm. [background conversation] Shirley Sanborn: ...better than us. Female: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: And they weren't bashful about letting [clicking] you know that [throat clearing] they were [clicking] being [inaudible 12:04] totally. [clicking] Female: Yep. [laughter] I've met... Shirley Sanborn: A lot of hard feelings. I mean... Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...it changed the whole atmosphere... [clicking] Female: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: ...of, of working here. [thumping] It [clicking] went from everybody [knocking] knew each other and, [clicking] and were friends [knocking] and went out after work and had drinks or whatever and, [knocking] and were all, [as they say 12:25], one big happy family, more or less. [background movement] After that, it was dog [clicking] eat dog. [clicking] I mean, mostly [clicking] [background movement] I think more of the men [background movement] because the women weren't too [background movement] much affected... [scratching] Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...directly. [clicking] Female: Mm-hm. [background movement] Shirley Sanborn: But the men took a beating. [thumping] Female: Hm, yep. [thumping] Shirley Sanborn: And we lost a lotta good [thumping] intelligence, [thumping] just like [Works 12:51] Engineering went out in Detroit, [background movement] and [clicking] [knocking] people there, they, uh, knew the plants, how the conveyors went, how [clicking] the plants ran, what worked and what didn't work. [thumping] Their whole [clicking] education just went [clicking] [knocking] and you start from scratch. Linda Johnson: Yep. Shirley Sanborn: Do it wrong again. Linda Johnson: Yep. [laughter] Train somebody new. [knocking] [laughter] Linda Johnson: Mike, did you have a question? Mike Fleming: Yes. Mike Fleming. [13:15] Hi, [scratching] how are you? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Fine, thank you. Mike Fleming: Um, I just, you [coughing] were talking about the $3,000 a month before [that 13:22], and the question I wanted to ask you was how did you feel about the pay equity? 'Cause you started, you know, quite some time ago, and it's been [background movement] 40 years, [clicking] I'm sure. [background movement] [13:30] From the time you started to you, to where you are now, how did you feel about the pay equity between [tsk] men and women? Shirley Sanborn: The pay scale here was a very, very top secret business. Nobody was [clicking] to even say [clicking] what they made or tell anybody else what their salary was, [clicking] period. Female: Mm-hm. [background movement] Shirley Sanborn: I mean, it was a, that was a big no-no. Mike Fleming: [13:59] So whenever they came around and [background movement] gave a raise, [clicking] they would say... [thumping] Shirley Sanborn: You did, you kept your mouth shut. [clicking] [tsk] The raises we got, and I have to say this [but, uh, 14:09] all the time the contracts were signed and everything, the salaried workforce [background movement] got as good, if not somewhat better, [knocking] than the hourly got at that point in time. [thumping] We were never shorted on [coughing] increases along that line until they s-, [thumping] quit giving, uh, hm, well, let's say they quit giving cost of living increases. Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: S-, and they said that would be incorporated in a merit scale program that would [background movement] go on. Well about a year later, they cancelled the merit program, [knocking] so you just got [clicking] [knocking] nothing. Mike Fleming: [14:53] Out of 40 years, did they give you all service awards for every 10, 15, 20, 25 years? Did they give you anything for your service time? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: We got a bracelet with a little – [clicking] I shoulda wore it. [clicking] A little Fisher Coach on it. Female: Hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: And I got one for 5, 10, 15, 25 years I got a clock, [thumping] and 30, you got a little, um, [thumping] [clicking] pendant thing with like jewels in'm. Like 3 diamonds was 40 years or somethin' like that. [background movement] Female: Cool. Shirley Sanborn: So... Male: Right. Shirley Sanborn: ...I still got all that [thumping] crap. [clicking] I'm gonna... Female: [Wear it. 15:28]. [laughter] Linda Johnson: If you wanna donations to the [background movement] museum, we're looking. [coughing] Shirley Sanborn: What museum? [background movement] Linda Johnson: At Michigan State University. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Oh, really? Linda Johnson: They're... Shirley Sanborn: They have a museum [clicking] at Olds Transportation... Linda Johnson: Yes. Shirley Sanborn: ...Museum too. Linda Johnson: Well they'd probably like that too, but we're, uh, [clicking] working in conjunction [with Lansing 15:43]... Shirley Sanborn: I've got a collection of [thumping] model Oldsmobile [thumping] cars dating back from 1957 to 1975. Female: Oh [inaudible 15:48]... Female: Hm. [clicking] Oh, yeah. Shirley Sanborn: You know, it used to set on the counter behind... Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...me. Linda Johnson: Yep. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. Cheryl McQuaid: Oh... Shirley Sanborn: I got them. Cheryl McQuaid: ...that's right. [background movement] Marilyn Coulter: Oh, [thumping] yeah. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Well if you wanna make a donation, [clicking] we can, uh, set it up if – so think about it. [knocking] Shirley Sanborn: Well as I told my son, those model cars, last I heard, they're [clicking] worth about $300 each. [background movement] Linda Johnson: Oh, my. Wow. Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 16:08]... Linda Johnson: He'd probably like'm then. Shirley Sanborn: ...go to my grandson's [clicking] college... Linda Johnson: Oh, yeah, yeah. Shirley Sanborn: ...education. [laughter] [coughing] Linda Johnson: They can only [throat clearing] go up in value. Shirley Sanborn: I have some cups and glasses, so... [laughter] Linda Johnson: Yeah. [laughter] Pictures? Shirley Sanborn: Posters. [laughter] Female: [Inaudible 16:20]. [laughter] Female: Mm-hm. [laughter] [background movement] Linda Johnson: Doug Rademacher. Shirley Sanborn: [Gosh, no. 16:24] [laughter] Doug Rademacher: I wanna go back a moment. You shared that when you came in in '49, [clicking] there were lots of women in the workplace. [background movement] Now [sniffing] I could be wrong, but there was a time right after the war [clicking] that, uh, [clicking] women had filled the workplace here [clicking] during the war, [thumping] and [scratching] then there came a period when the women were being forced out [clicking] [bringin' 16:46] the men back into the [clicking] workplace. [16:48] Did you [clicking] see any of that? Shirley Sanborn: No. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: No? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: 'Cause I, I started [knocking] after the war in [clicking] '49, so by that time – although there are some women in our retirees club that [throat clearing] were here during [thumping] that period a [thumping] time. Not me. Doug Rademacher: Okay. Linda Johnson: Hm. [clicking] Besides, um, [clicking] work, there was some fun times that you were responsible for in your department [clicking] and as well as the [clicking] Fisher Body Women's Club. [clicking] [17:19] Could you tell us [clicking] about some of those? Shirley Sanborn: Well Women's Club used to h-, hold, [clicking] um, [clicking] dances once a, usually once a year, [thumping] and we would have, uh, [clicking] [scratching] poster parties to, a buncha women would get together and make [background movement] posters for the [scratching] dances and, and, uh, [knocking] [clicking] then, [background movement] [clicking] well [inaudible 17:46]. [clicking] I should. They also had style shows. [thumping] Female: Hm. Female: [Oh, fun. 17:50] Shirley Sanborn: I was [thumping] not involved. That was a period a time between the time I left and [thumping] came back when they had most of the style shows, but they [clicking] put on some pretty good shows, [clicking] I understand. [background movement] I went to one and won a purse, so it was [thumping] [all right 18:03]. Linda Johnson: Oh, that's good. [laughter] [knocking] Shirley Sanborn: But, uh, we had, the-, they did that almost [clicking] every year, and [clicking] it was a lotta fun. Linda Johnson: [18:13] Where would they have those at? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Well it used to be the Elks Club... [thumping] Linda Johnson: Okay. Shirley Sanborn: ...when it was down on North Lansing by [scratching] where the Estes Furniture [thumping] used to be. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Hm. [background movement] Shirley Sanborn: The Elks Club [used to be down 18:23]. Then we had [background movement] some at the [clicking] Elks Club when it was on Moores River Drive. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Our department parties were all over. [Brian Wandell 18:31] and I were basically did [clicking] most of those. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: And we had those, oh, we had'm at the Elks Club, and we had'm at the [Forty and Eight 18:40] Club and, uh, the Radisson Hotel [background movement] and a lot of other places. [clicking] But, um, used to be Club Roma out by Laingsburg. [thumping] [clicking] Linda Johnson: I'm not familiar with [clicking] that. [background movement] Doug Rademacher: [Old restaurant 18:56]. Female: Mm-hm. Female: [Inaudible 18:57]. Doug Rademacher: [It's Jambalaya's 18:57]. Female: Oh, [Jambalaya's 18:58]... Shirley Sanborn: Yeah, [Jambalaya's 18:59] now. Female: ['Cause I remember that. 18:59]. Shirley Sanborn: It's changed names [throat clearing] [inaudible 19:00]. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: [Inaudible 19:02]. [thumping] Shirley Sanborn: But we had some good parties, [scratching] really good parties. [scratching] Linda Johnson: Mike Fleming. [scratching] Mike Fleming: [19:08] Did you ever have an opportunity in your job to travel for the [thumping] company or were you always [clicking] here in Lansing? [thumping] Shirley Sanborn: I didn't travel for the company, but I had, uh, [background movement] [thumping] one time, uh, [background movement] [clicking] [Chris Ignash 19:22] and I – she was the [clicking] maintenance clerk. [thumping] She and I went to Buffalo, New York, one time [thumping] on a [clicking] letter writing seminar. [laughter] I think, [clicking] [laughter] well I was supposed to learn how to write letters. [thumping] [laughter] We had a lotta [clicking] fun, but [laughter] that was the only trip I went on. [laughter] But we did learn a lot. [background movement] Linda Johnson: [19:52] Well you also, the Women's Club was responsible for the store in the [clicking] plant? Shirley Sanborn: The store, yes, we... Linda Johnson: [19:57] Like popular with the employees? Shirley Sanborn: ...we set the store [clicking] up and, [thumping] and, uh, [background movement] donated – [knocking] [clicking] the money went to different [background movement] charities around town. We'd, every year, we'd figure out how much money we had and then divvy it up between various organizations like Salvation [clanking] Army and WKAR and [clicking] wha-, whatever... [knocking] Linda Johnson: Oh, yeah, it was... Shirley Sanborn: ...else we thought... Linda Johnson: ..usually quite a list. Shirley Sanborn: ...was a good idea. Yeah, it was quite... Linda Johnson: Like... Shirley Sanborn: ...a list. Linda Johnson: ...twel-, at least 12, [background movement] as I recall. Shirley Sanborn: And we took turns [clanking] manning the store until [knocking] they started putting [inaudible 20:18] [throat clearing] people in there, [background movement] and then we got [knocking] [scratching] relieved of that duty, but, uh... Linda Johnson: [20:34] What'd you sell in the store? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Well a lot of, uh, company logo jackets [background movement] and sweatshirts and [squeaking] [scratching] T-shirts and [squeaking] candy, a lot [thumping] of candy, different kinds of candy and [clicking] whatnots [clicking] that people made, uh, handicraft stuff. If people wanted to bring it in, we'd [thumping] sell it. [clicking] We sold belt buckles and, with the Fisher emblem... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...on'm and [clicking], and, uh. [background movement] [clicking] Linda Johnson: You coulda sold [knocking] a lot of that stuff as the plant was getting ready ta close down. Shirley Sanborn: Oh, I bet. [thumping] [sniffing] [thumping] Linda Johnson: Doreen Howard. Doreen Howard: [21:18] Um, what was a normal [clicking] work day like for you? What, [clicking] what did your day consist of? What time did you start work, and what time did you end work? Shirley Sanborn: [tsk] [clicking] Forty-one years [clicking] I worked here, I started 8:00 in the morning. [tsk] I left at, uh – well we used to get an hour lunch, and then they made that 42 [clicking] minutes, [clicking] so I got outta here at, what, 4:42 or [thumping] whenever that amounted [clicking] to. So basically, I didn't change hours at all. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Hm, that was nice for you. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Yeah. [background movement] [Inaudible 21:53] I lived out by [Frandor 21:54] at that time, [background movement] run home and watch a [clicking] soap opera and come back. [laughter] [Inaudible 22:00] [laughter] fast trip. [laughter] Doreen Howard: [22:04] What was some of the – [thumping] what was some of your daily activities that, that you did every day [clicking] as far as [clicking] [high-pitched sound] your position? [tsk] [thumping] Somethin' that they relied on you [clicking] every day to do, [clicking] certain [clicking] things? Shirley Sanborn: Well when I worked for George Noos, we had [clicking] daily scrap reports, so you'd turn in all the dif-, [thumping] all the plant [background conversation] rejected material type of thing, broken windshields [clicking] and [knocking] scrap this, scrap that, [clicking] and you had to make a daily [throat clearing] scrap report. And then we had a [beeping] report [thumping] [shown on 22:38] windshields, how many [throat clearing] windshields were broken on each shift by [squeaking] [knocking] what process. And, [thumping] [squeaking] [high-pitched sound] and, uh, [door creaking] [thumping] and then, [clicking] then we had all the Sanitation people, and I had kept all their [background movement] daily hours. Every week you'd [thumping] [knocking] add up their hours, and [knocking] then if there was discrepancies in between [knocking] trades, like say the janitors. One janitor had [knocking] more hours [thumping] than the other, [knocking] then they had to jockey back and forth ta [thumping] [knocking] equalize the hours between them. [clanking] Keep track of all the employee – they had these little envelope packets with all their transfer slips and hiring notices and all that stuff in'm. [clicking] And you'd keep track of all those, and when they got transferred to another [thumping] department, [scratching] you'd send all this [creaking] relevant information to the next department. And it [clicking] was busy. [clicking] I didn't have – [clicking] I earned my keep, [laughter] basically. [clicking] Doreen Howard: Sounds like [inaudible 23:43]... Linda Johnson: You needed a rest just to go home and watch a soap opera. [laughter] Shirley Sanborn: Days of [throat clearing] Our Lives, [thumping] As the World Turns. Female: Mm-hm. [thumping] [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: [laughter] [clicking] But, uh, that was when I was in day-, in, in Sanitation and Waste Control. When I [knocking] went out to Engineering, it was a whole different [background movement] ball game. Doreen Howard: Mm-hm. [24:02] What'd [clicking] they expect of you [background movement] from the [clicking] Engineering [thumping] Department that was different from the Sanitation Department? [thumping] [scratching] Shirley Sanborn: Well then they, [clicking] there, you were, [clicking] took care of all the, uh, [background movement] all – there was always construction going on, always, [thumping] [clicking] 12 months a year, someplace, somehow. So that was always making up proposals and running copies and doing all the – [clicking] [I was Varma's 24:29] secretary clerk, so doing all his typing for him, [knocking] writing his [background movement] letters for him and [background movement] editing his [background movement] writings and... [laughter] Doreen Howard: [24:43] So you, you... Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 24:44]... Doreen Howard: ...had a lot more res-, [background movement] job responsibility [clicking] when you moved to the Engineering... Shirley Sanborn: Oh, yes... Doreen Howard: ...as far as... Shirley Sanborn: ...yes. [high-pitched sound] Doreen Howard: ...as the amount of... [knocking] Shirley Sanborn: Yeah. Doreen Howard: ...amount of work you had to do... [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Oh, yeah. Doreen Howard: ...increased. Yeah. Shirley Sanborn: Much more. Linda Johnson: Mike Fleming. [clicking] Mike Fleming: Um, throughout all the time you've been here, 41 years, I'm [background movement] sure [thumping] there's been good and bad. [25:02] Can you think of what you would consider one of the best days that you've had since you've been here at this facility? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: [tsk] January 1st, 1993. [clicking] Mike Fleming: [25:16] Significance? Shirley Sanborn: Day I retired. [laughter] [coughing] No, I [clicking] have to say this. I enjoyed my work [clicking] very much. [clicking] I enjoyed being here. I had a lotta good friends. I did a lotta work, [clicking] and I was praised for it continuously. [knocking] The bosses were very, very good about complimenting [background movement] on my work and how I did it and [clicking] how fast I did it and [clicking] whatever. [thumping] And the engineers, [clicking] the guys in the Engineering office [thumping] were, you know, they'd, they'd give me somethin' to do [thumping] and I'd do it, you know. [thumping] I didn't... Mike Fleming: [25:55] Was there one ... Shirley Sanborn: ...sit around and wonder why. Mike Fleming: ...day, though – but was there [laughter] one day that was, maybe you, there was a – [thumping] it could've been an accident, it could've been a party, [clicking] could've been – [thumping] [26:05] what stands out in your mind most out of 41 years? Nothing particular? Shirley Sanborn: Hm. Mike Fleming: Something had to happen. Shirley Sanborn: [The 26:10] one thing that... Mike Fleming: [Inaudible 26:11]. Shirley Sanborn: ...stands out in my mind is when I got my 25-year clock, and I had to go up to Mr. [Wheatheran's 26:15] office, and he's – I don't know if you knew Mr. Wheatheran or not [laughter] but he is [laughter] [inaudible 26:21]. [thumping] He was funny as a crutch. [clicking] I mean, he tried to put you at ease, but the more he tried to put you at ease, the more uneasy you got, so [laughter], so but, uh, [clicking] that particular [clicking] event stood out in my mind for a long time. [laughter] Mike Fleming: [26:39] So what did he do [thumping] when you, [clicking] when you got the clock? [creaking] [background noises] [clicking] You wanna talk about it [clicking] now? Shirley Sanborn: Uh, when I got what? Mike Fleming: When you got your clock [thumping] and you went... Shirley Sanborn: Oh, no... Mike Fleming: ...to his office... Shirley Sanborn: ...no. Mike Fleming: ...[to get it 26:49]. Shirley Sanborn: That was kind of an, [clicking] kind of an afterthought, basically. [laughter] Female: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: No. Female: ['Cause 26:56]... Shirley Sanborn: He was a good guy. [clicking] He was funny. [creaking] I used to replace his secretary when she was gone. Her name was [Pearl Pretty 27:01]. [coughing] [laughter] [clicking] You'd go in there to replace her, and here's [big 27:08] Wheatheran sittin' at her typewriter typing up his own letters. [laughter] [throat clearing] [Inaudible 27:13]. Female: [Inaudible 27:14]. [background movement] Shirley Sanborn: [Uh, he wasn't 27:15] plant manager [inaudible 27:15]. But the plant manager, [background movement] [clicking] Mr. [Trump 27:19] came out and told him, [inaudible 27:20] says, [laughter] "We don't pay you to type letters." [laughter] [clicking] Uh, but, uh, and we had a good time. [clicking] I mean, basically it was a family. Everybody was [clicking] polite, kind. [background movement] There were a few... [knocking] [thumping] Mike Fleming: [27:39] What did you think about [clicking] the name changes... Shirley Sanborn: ...assholes around, but... Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...they're here, everywhere... Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...you know. [clicking] [thumping] Linda Johnson: [27:44] Did you ever have anyone [clicking] in the maintenance organization build anything special for you, like a government job, you know, maybe, uh, something for your desk or [thumping] something for your cottage or... Shirley Sanborn: No [inaudible 27:56]... Linda Johnson: ...anything like that, any... [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: No. The only thing I had built for me was a [thumping] little plastic thing they kept my [clicking] cars in [clicking] to sit on the... Linda Johnson: Oh, yeah, [knocking] uh-huh... Shirley Sanborn: ...sit on the counter... Linda Johnson: ...mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...behind me. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: This little [clicking] [slidey 28:06] thing that... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...held all the cars. [scratching] [thumping] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: And that wasn't built for me particularly. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [background movement] Shirley Sanborn: No, no way. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [clicking] Doug Rademacher. Shirley Sanborn: I can't say that for everybody, but that's... [laughter] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: So you're speaking about some cars. [28:24] What, what are these cars, and how many do you have, and who – [clicking] were they put together? Did you put them... Shirley Sanborn: They were put, [background movement] they were put out by the Oldsmobile Public Relations Department [clicking] and the Oldsmobile Women's Club. [thumping] And what they are are a model [clicking] car about [scratching] so big, uh, the exact replica of a Oldsmobile. [clicking] Underbody, [clicking] the, the [clicking] doors didn't open, but the, the whole thing is a [scraping] [clicking] exact replica of a car that was built at that time. Doug Rademacher: [28:56] So they're between 10 and 12 inches long? Shirley Sanborn: Yeah, about [clicking] 10 inches. [clanking] And I have, [clicking] uh, uh, from '57 to '75. [clicking] Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: And I've got a couple [clicking] of extras in there, [clicking] so 20. Doug Rademacher: Yeah. Female: Hm. Shirley Sanborn: And they sit... Female: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [29:20] And these are all models of [background movement] vehicles built... Female: [Inaudible 29:21]... Doug Rademacher: ...here at Lansing? Shirley Sanborn: Yep. [thumping] Includin' the Toronado and... [clanking] Female: Mm-hm. Doug Rademacher: [29:28] Station wagon [clanking] [from the 29:28]... Shirley Sanborn: Station... Doug Rademacher: ...4-4-2s. Shirley Sanborn: ...wagon [inaudible 29:30]. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: Yeah. Female: Wow. Female: Yeah. Shirley Sanborn: Yep. [background movement] Doug Rademacher: Interesting. [clanking] Female: Yep. Mike Fleming: [29:33] Did you put them together yourself? [clanking] Female: [No 28:35]. Shirley Sanborn: [Pardon? 29:35]. [background movement] Mike Fleming: [29:36] Did you put them together yourself or did they come already assembled? [sighing] [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: I had some myself, and then they came, uh, [tsk] oh, various. Uh, one a the former plant engineers, [Bob McKinstry 29:48], had a [clanking] row of'm and, uh, then [knocking] Lee Reese had a row of'm, and then there was somebody else that had some. They were all upstairs in the, in the display case in the [thumping] aisle that went past the cafeteria. Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: And they ended up down in [John Rosen's 30:08] office, [clicking] and he called [knocking] one time, and I don't know [clicking] why. They were, took all those display cases down and did whatever with'm. [clanking] And he calls, and he said, uh, he had all these model cars upstairs. He says, uh, "Does anybody want'm or you want me to chuck'm?" [clanking] I said, "I want'm." Female: Hm. Shirley Sanborn: So he hauled'm down to me, and they were all dusty, dirty, [clicking] crappy, [clicking] abused. Female: Mm-hm. [background movement] Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: So I took'm in the restroom and washed'm off. [laughter] [background movement] Linda Johnson: [30:40] You made'm all shiny again? Shirley Sanborn: Got'm all shiny again and had'm all lined up on [background movement] the counter behind me [clanking] there, and, uh, [clicking] and [clicking] I don't [inaudible 30:48] who brought it up, but I think it was [Dan McClane 30:49]. He says, "I can have [clicking] you a case built for [clicking] those." And [clicking] 'cause people kept comin' by and wantin' to steal'm. [clicking] Female: Mm-hm. [throat clearing] Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 30:58] nailed down sometimes. Female: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: But, uh, [laughter] [clicking] anyway, Dan had that case built [clicking] for me, and I had a padlo-, had a lock on it, so that... Female: Hm. Shirley Sanborn: ...preserved'm. Then when I retired, told Leonard Varma I wanted to, I wanted to take those cars. And he said, "Oh, you don't want those old things." I said, "Yes, I do." [clanking] "Yeah, no you don't." [clanking] I said, "Well okay." [tsk] So I left, and he went on vacation, and I came in and got'm. [laughter] [clicking] [rustling] Linda Johnson: Well Dan... Shirley Sanborn: With the... Linda Johnson: ...was the one... Shirley Sanborn: ...with the help of a couple other people. [thumping] Linda Johnson: ...that brought those, uh, notebooks to our attention. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Mm-hm. There's a Women's Club book or Girl's Club [clicking] albums around here someplace... [clicking] Linda Johnson: I haven't... Shirley Sanborn: ...but maybe they got tossed... Linda Johnson: ...I don't know. Shirley Sanborn: ...I don't know. Linda Johnson: I don't know... Shirley Sanborn: Maybe [Terry Weston 31:50]... Linda Johnson: ...[inaudible 31:50]... Shirley Sanborn: ...took'm home with her. I don't know. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Cheryl McQuaid. [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: You've mentioned that you worked [thumping] with, um, Leonard Varma. [31:58] What was he like to work for? Shirley Sanborn: Super. Cheryl McQuaid: [32:01] Was he? Good boss? Shirley Sanborn: Good boss. [background movement] [clicking] Yep, very good boss. [background movement] Cheryl McQuaid: I know the one thing I always heard about Leonard Varma was if you [thumping] asked him what a project was gonna cost, he always said, "It'll cost what it costs." Shirley Sanborn: Yep. Cheryl McQuaid: That was his saying, [huh? 32:16] Shirley Sanborn: Figure what it cost and [clicking] add 10%. [clicking] [laughter] He, he had, at that point in time, he had – so [clicking] his hair was [still red 32:25], and he had a temper [clicking] that he [clicking] would lose [scraping] occasionally, but, um, [clicking] never to me. [clicking] Never to me, no. We got along fine. [background movement] [thumping] Linda Johnson: Doreen Howard. [thumping] Doreen Howard: You were here during the [thumping] name changes of the plant. It went from Fisher [scraping] Body to BOC. [32:47] Were you here during the BOC... Shirley Sanborn: No, BOP. Doreen Howard: BOP? [clicking] [clanking] Shirley Sanborn: Then BOC. Doreen Howard: Then BOC? Okay. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Buick, Olds, Pontiac. Doreen Howard: Oh, okay. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Then Buick, Olds, Cadillac. [clicking] Doreen Howard: Okay. Male: And then LCA. Doreen Howard: [33:01] And then [clanking] were you here from, [clicking] when it went to the [background movement] LCA? Shirley Sanborn: Oh, yes. Doreen Howard: Okay. [clicking] [33:07] How did you feel about these name changes and... Shirley Sanborn: I thought it was ridiculous. Doreen Howard: [33:10] And [laughter] what do you to re-, refer to the plant? How do you refer to this [clanking] building? Shirley Sanborn: Fisher Body. Doreen Howard: [squeaking] [clanking] [33:17] Do you have any, um, [clicking] [thumping] special memories or, or anything [knocking] about the building [clicking] that's dear to your heart or anything? Shirley Sanborn: Nah, no. I... Doreen Howard: [clicking] Uh... Shirley Sanborn: ...sat at the same desk [scraping] for 40 years, uh, [coughing] not quite, but... [clicking] [laughter] [clicking] Marilyn Coulter: Uh, at, in 1949 – Marilyn Coulter, [throat clearing] [just a 33:39] question. [33:40] Was, what about the women's facilities? I know they've had to, um, [clicking] they've had to put more out on the floor. Wo-, did, [snapping] did women who worked in the office, did they have the same number [thumping] of facilities as the men did? Shirley Sanborn: There was one restroom. Marilyn Coulter: [33:51] Just one restroom? Shirley Sanborn: One for men, one for women. [background movement] That's all there was [up in 33:56] the main office area. Marilyn Coulter: [Okay. All right. 33:57] [background movement] Linda Johnson: Doug Rademacher. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: There used to be a garden [clicking] of flowers and bushes that made up the Fisher Body Coach out in front. Shirley Sanborn: Yeah. Doug Rademacher: [34:09] Was that here the day you hired in, or do you know when that was created? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: It was there when I hired in, and it [clicking] was there until [background movement] th-, they decided it cost too much to maintain, basically. Linda Johnson: Do you know [when that 34:23]... Shirley Sanborn: We used to have gardeners who used to work in the department I worked in [thumping] for the Waste Control Salvage Sanitation. [background movement] They'd go out there [clicking] and [pick 34:32] all the, [clicking] all the flowers, pl-, planted'm every spring. And [clicking] then they, they had a chalk diagram that they [clanking] put down [clanking] in the spring, and then they'd [background movement] plant these flowers [clicking] according to the diagram. And then they'd, all summer long, they were out there [squeaking] clippin' and [clicking] clippin' and [clicking] clippin' and clippin' and [laughter] clippin' and... [laughter] [thumping] [throat clearing] Female: [Inaudible 34:57]. [clicking] [knocking] Shirley Sanborn: But [coughing] yeah, it was, uh – people came from all over to take pictures of that thing. Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: All over. [background movement] Doug Rademacher: I grew up 3 blocks from here, and I just, [scratching] that was something I'll always remember and [scratching] couldn't believe they took [clicking] it out. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: Oh, I know. That's such a, [scraping] such a shame. Female: Mm-hm. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: I mean, what the hell, you know. I mean, [thumping] I mean, these guys worked – they were gardeners, but they didn't [clicking] [throat clearing] spend all their time clippin'. [clicking] They mowed the yards, picked up trash, [coughing] all the rest of the [knocking] gardening stuff. [scraping] You know, [clicking] was not my decision. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: Well you said [clanking] people came from all over. [clicking] Do you... Shirley Sanborn: I mean, other countries, even. Doug Rademacher: That's what I was wonderin'. [35:37] Do you know, [for example 35:39]... Shirley Sanborn: Not specifically, no, but [thumping] I know they did. They were out there takin' [knocking] pictures all the time. Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 35:46]. [laughter] [clicking] Doug Rademacher: Well it was, it was beautiful. Shirley Sanborn: It was. [throat clearing] It was unusual. I mean, you have a, [knocking] you have a picture of a [knocking] s-, coach in the center of this thing and, and all the different colors that the, [background movement] the flowers were all different colors to go with the coach. [clicking] So it was, uh, [knocking] it was beautiful. [high-pitched sound] Doug Rademacher: It was. Shirley Sanborn: It really was. [background movement] [thumping] Linda Johnson: [36:11] Well is there anything I haven't asked you or my cohorts haven't asked you? Doug Rademacher? Doug Rademacher: I'll ask another [clicking] question. Linda Johnson: Okay. Doug Rademacher: You shared that, um, [sniffing] after [clicking] contracts that your wages were always increased according to the gains made by the union. [36:29] Could you share a little bit [thumping] about [sniffing] what you think [scraping] about unions and did you... Shirley Sanborn: I think they're the greatest thing since [scraping] mashed potatoes. [clicking] I mean, at that [background movement] point in time, if it hadn't been for the union, we wouldn't a got squat. Female: [Inaudible 36:43]... Shirley Sanborn: And we knew it. I mean, there was no getting around it. [clanking] [clicking] Everybody knew that. [clanking] If they didn't, they were stupid. Female: [Mm-hm 36:53]. [background movement] [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: There was a lot of those around too, but [laughter] [inaudible 36:57]. No, I think, uh, you know, I, I'm – depresses me greatly to see the [throat clearing] [clicking] things that the unions go through nowadays with a lot of, [background movement] lot of things, [clicking] Delphi, for example. Used to be Ternstedt back when I hired in. Matter a fact, [thumping] the guy that ran the Ternstedt desk in Material Control is the guy that suggested I come [thumping] over here and get hired, so. [laughter] [clicking] Doug Rademacher: Grateful to him, [I assume 37:29]. [background noises] Shirley Sanborn: Yeah. [laughter] Female: Mm-hm. Doreen Howard: [37:33] So you were here for when they struck for [scraping] [clicking] 30-and-out [clicking] back in the, what was that? About seventy... Doug Rademacher: The u-, the union... Doreen Howard: ...four? Female: [Inaudible 37:40]... Doug Rademacher: It was, [clicking] I think that was the '69, [scraping] when they walk, walked out for the 30-and-out. The union asked for 30 years of service [thumping] to retire. [clicking] [37:50] Do you remember that? Shirley Sanborn: I don't remember that specifically, but my brother [clicking] worked in the Paint Shop, and he [clicking] retired [thumping] with 30-and-out, so he [squeaking] retired [in '48 37:57] [inaudible 37:58]. [clicking] [laughter] Male: Hm. Shirley Sanborn: I mean, [laughter] I mean, [laughter] [thumping] [clicking] and then he's been gripin' ever since about all the money he doesn't get. [laughter] Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. [38:10] Do you have any... Shirley Sanborn: [What do you expect? 38:10] Linda Johnson: ...other family members that worked here besides [clicking] your brother? What was your brother's name? [throat clearing] Shirley Sanborn: Frank Kobel. Linda Johnson: Frank Kobel? Shirley Sanborn: K-O-B-E-L. [clicking] He's now living in Florida with, [clicking] he's got 3 children that [clicking] live down there, and his wife died a couple years ago, so he's, uh... Linda Johnson: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: S-, anything else? [clicking] Linda Johnson: [38:34] If you, have I – is there anything else you'd wanna share that we haven't asked you? [background movement] Shirley Sanborn: Well if you wanna know why my name is Sanborn, not McGiven. Linda Johnson: Yeah. [laughter] [38:44] But yeah, why is that? [laughter] Shirley Sanborn: It's because my son's father and I were divorced, and I remarried a guy named [John 38:50] Sanborn, who was a [clicking] pipefitter welder for the local... Linda Johnson: Oh. Shirley Sanborn: ...288. Female: Oh. [clicking] Female: [Inaudible 38:55]. Shirley Sanborn: [No 38:56] [background noises] and, [clicking] but he's, he's dead now too. Female: Oh. Shirley Sanborn: They're all dead. [clicking] [laughter] They're all dead. [laughter] Linda Johnson: You outlive'm all. Shirley Sanborn: All dead. [clicking] Female: [Hm 39:05]. Shirley Sanborn: So it's just me and my son [clicking] and his wife and 3 kids. Linda Johnson: [39:08] How old are those grandchildren? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: The oldest is 16, four-, and the next boy is 14, and the girl is 13. [clicking] They all go to DeWitt. Linda Johnson: Cheryl McQuaid. Cheryl McQuaid: [39:21] How did you meet Mr. Sanborn? Shirley Sanborn: The bowling alley. [clicking] Cheryl McQuaid: [39:25] Were you on a bowling team or... Shirley Sanborn: Yeah. Women's – [clicking] Fisher Body Women's Team. [laughter] Cheryl McQuaid: Oh, how fun. Linda Johnson: Do you have a... Shirley Sanborn: He wasn't... Linda Johnson: ...picture of you? Shirley Sanborn: ...he was, uh, on the [thumping] construction team. Linda Johnson: That's another thing we'd like, [clicking] a picture of a Fisher [clicking] Body bowling team and [background movement] their Fisher Body shirts. [clanking] [39:40] You got somethin' like that? [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: I don't know for certain. I'd have to – [clanking] I've got 26 photo albums [clicking] full a pictures... Linda Johnson: Oh, my. Shirley Sanborn: ...at home. Marilyn Coulter: [Yes 39:54]. [clicking] Linda Johnson: Well think about that. We were looking for somethin' like... Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 39:57]... Linda Johnson: ...that. Shirley Sanborn: ...if you could find the [clanking] Women's Club [creaking] album, [knocking] it might have something. I'm not sure about that. [background movement] Cheryl McQuaid: [40:05] Is that how the bowling team came about? Was that part of the Women's Club or... Shirley Sanborn: No. It was just a buncha [background movement] women got together and uh, [clicking] made a bowling team, or league [inaudible 40:15]... Cheryl McQuaid: So it was... Shirley Sanborn: ...we had... Cheryl McQuaid: ...all co-workers, [huh? 40:17]. Shirley Sanborn: ...we had 4 or si-, [what we have, 40:19] [thumping], 6, 6 teams or something like that. Linda Johnson: Doug [throat clearing] Rademacher. [thumping] Doug Rademacher: You said you had a great time working here. You had good friends. [40:33] Has your friendships carried over into your [background movement] life after Fisher Body? Shirley Sanborn: Not really, no. [clicking] Doug Rademacher: [40:38] You said that you meet with the gals, so can you tell us about that? Shirley Sanborn: Well I meet with'm once a month, but we're, [clicking] we're [clicking] friends but not buddies. [clicking] [background noises] There's a difference. [laughter] Doug Rademacher: [Okay. 40:52] [thumping] [laughter] Shirley Sanborn: No. The, [clicking] my, my one – I'm probably a lot different than a lotta women. I had very few close friends. [clicking] My closest friend moved to Wyoming last year, which would [clanking] pull us apart. [laughter] Linda Johnson: That's a distance. [laughter] Female: Yeah, that's a distance. [coughing] Shirley Sanborn: [clicking] Other than that, um... [clicking] Female: Mm-hm. Shirley Sanborn: No. [clicking] [thumping] [clicking] Yeah, I, I've learned to live alone. I've lived alone now for th-, [clicking] 39 years. [background movement] Female: Wow. Female: Wow. [creaking] Shirley Sanborn: And I don't mind my own company, so you know, no problem. Doug Rademacher: We don't mind your company either. Female: We don't mind. [laughter] Shirley Sanborn: No problem. [laughter] Female: [Inaudible 41:46]. [clicking] Shirley Sanborn: But, uh... [clicking] Linda Johnson: Well thank you... Marilyn Coulter: Yes. Linda Johnson: ...for comin' here today. [clicking] Mike Fleming: Yes, thank [clicking] you... Shirley Sanborn: [Inaudible 41:51]... Mike Fleming: ...very much. Linda Johnson: It's great to see you [throat clearing] again. Cheryl McQuaid: Thank you, Shirley. Marilyn Coulter: Yeah. Mike Fleming: Thank you [inaudible 41:53]. Female: [Inaudible 41:44]. [recorder clicking] /lk