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GENDER DIFFERENCES IN THE EXPRESSION OF FEELINGS
IN COUPLES THERAPY SESSIONS

By

Julie Bennett Brownell

A DISSERTATION
Submitted to
Michigan State University
In partial fulfillment of the requirements
For the degree of
DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY
Department of Family and Child Ecology

2002

ABSTRACT

GENDER DIFFERENCES IN THE EXPRESSION OF FEELINGS
IN COUPLES THERAPY SESSIONS

By

Julie Bennett Brownell

Social science research suggests that there are gender differences in the
approach to discussion of feelings. One area of difference points to most males
as less skillful and less inclined to discuss feelings than most females. lf male
therapists share these characteristics, this finding has implications for those who
structure training programs for therapists. Transcription form 10 couples therapy
sessions demonstrated several important findings. The overall time devoted to
discussion of feelings was very low, averaging 1 feeling word/feeling expression
(FWIF E) in 13 turns speaking. Female therapists in the study used more FWIF E
and took longer turns as measured by number of words used than their male
counterparts. Male therapists took more turns speaking, but used less of their
turns to discuss feelings. Male clients as a group both spoke less altogether and
spoke less about feelings than both female clients and therapists of both
genders. One of the most intriguing and consistent findings points to an
inclination of both therapists and clients to speak more to the opposite gender
than to the same gender. Expanding the study of gender differences in
discussion of feelings is important to helping practicing therapists to reflect on
their approach to discussion of feelings in couples therapy sessions and for those

designing training programs for therapists.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

I am grateful for the support of my guidance committee, Dr. Dolores Borland-
Hunt, chair, Dr. Robert Lee, Dr. Dennis Keefe, and Dr. Steve Weiland. Your
patience and willingness to mentor me through what was for me a long process
has been invaluable to me. And, although she retired before I was finished, I

appreciate Dr. Norma Bobbitt's guidance through most of the process.

I especially appreciate the assistance I received from my friends, Ellen and
George Leroi, who have always been willing to take the time to give help or
advice when I said I needed it. I thank other friends, Shawn Johnson and
Dorothy Mirkil for prodding and encouraging me. And, I am grateful to Whitney
Brosi who took time to help me even though we don’t know each other well

because that’s the kind of person she is.
I am grateful to all of my professors and my fellow students. You have
challenged me and l have learned a great deal from you. I treasure the

experiences we had together.

And finally, I honor Mary Jo Stibitz, a fellow student and friend. I think often of

Mary Jo and imagine she has been with me through the process.

LIST OF TABLES

Table 1. Description of Sample: Male Therapists’ Cases ................................... 30
Table 2. Description of Sample: Female Therapists’ Cases . ............................. 31

Table 3. Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions ........................... 32

Table 4. Ranked Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions ............................. 33
Table 5. Standard Deviations for Therapist Use and Combined Therapist!

Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions .............................................. 34
Table 6. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions ................................ 35'

Table 7. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions (FW/F E) by
Therapist Gender .............................................................................................. 36

Table 8. Male Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Client
Gender .............................................................................................................. 37

Table 9. Female Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Client
Gender .............................................................................................................. 38

Table 10. Client Response to Male Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling
Expressions ...................................................................................................... 39

Table 11. Client Response to Female Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling
Expressions ...................................................................................................... 41

Table 12. Male Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by

Session Time Segments ................................................................................... 44
Table 13. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Session Time
Segments in Male Therapist Sessions .............................................................. 45
Table 14. Female Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by

Session Time Segments ................................................................................... 46
Table 15. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Session Time
Segments in Female Therapist Sessions .......................................................... 47
Table 16. t-Test for Significance of Therapist Gender. ....................................... 47
Table 17. t-Test for Significance of Client Gender ............................................. 48

Table 19. Use of FWIFE by Group by Time Segment. ....................................... 49

Table 20. Therapist and Client Turns and Feeling Word/Feeling Expression

Use ................................................................................................................... 56
Table 21. Therapist Cross-gender Talk ............................................................ 69
Table 22. Client Cross-gender Talk ................................................................. 69
Table 23. Comparison of Therapist Turns Speaking With Use of Feeling
Words/Feeling Expressions .............................................................................. 70
Table 24. Total Turns Speaking, Total Words and Words Per Turn by

Therapist Gender .............................................................................................. 71
Table 25. Comparison of Client Words and Turns by Therapist Gender ............... 71
Table 26. Comparison of Client Total Turns Speaking and Total Words by

Gender .............................................................................................................. 73
Table 27. Client Words Per Turn ..................................................................... 74
Table 28. Comparison of Total Turns speaking and Total Words by Group .......... 74
Table 29. Ranked Comparison of Words Per Turn ............................................ 75
Table 30. Comparison of Turns and Words by Group. ....................................... 76
Table 31. Ranked Comparison of Feeling Words/Feelings Expression Use,

Turns Speaking and Words Used by Group ...................................................... 77
Table 32. Comparison of Female Client Total Turns and Total Words ................. 78
Table 33. t-Test for Significance of Female Client Use of FWIFE in Sessions

with Male Therapist vs. Sessions with Female Therapists ................................... 78
Table 34. Comparison of Client-to-Client and CIient—to-Therapist Turns

Speaking ........................................................................................................... 84
Table 35. Client Direction of FWIF E ................................................................. 100
Table 36. Comparison of Female and Male Gender Totals ................................ 101
Table 37. Comparison of Words per Turn by Group .......................................... 102

TABLE OF CONTENTS

LIST OF TABLES ...................................................................................................... iv
CHAPTER I PROLOGUE ................................................................................... 1
Scope of the problem ..................................................................................... 1
Purpose Statement ........................................................................................ 3
CHAPTER II REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE .................................................... 4
Male/Female Socialization ............................................................................. 4
Gender Communications ............................................................................... 6
Gender Communications in Therapy .............................................................. 9
Efficacious Therapy ...................................................................................... 13
CHAPTER III RESEARCH METHODOLOGY .................................................... 15
Research Objectives .................................................................................... 15
Research Design .......................................................................................... 16
Research Questions ..................................................................................... 16
Conceptual and Operational Definitions ....................................................... 17
Sampling Process ........................................................................................ 23

Data Collection Procedures ......................................................................... 26

Stage 1 - Pre-test ........................................................................ 26

Stage 2 - Identification and Transcription for Analysis ................. 28

Stage 3 - Analysis of the data ..................................................... 29

Stage 4 - Qualitative analysis of the data .................................... 29

CHAPTER N RESULTS AND DISCUSSION ..................................................... 30
CHAPTER V QUALITATIVE RESULTS ............................................................ 55
CHAPTER Vl SUMMARY AND EPILOGUE ..................................................... 108
APPENDICES ................................................................................................... 111
Appendix A — Pre-test Documentation ....................................................... 1 12
Appendix B - List of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions Counted ............ 122
Appendix C - Transcription of Cases ......................................................... 127
Appendix D - VIdeotape VIewing Checklist ............................................... 193
REFERENCES ................................................................................................... 195

vi

CHAPTER I
PROLOGUE

Scope of the problem

Research on male/female socialization, points to definitive differences in the
socialization of males and females in our society. Among these gender
differences are those involving communication behaviors. Philpot (1991)
concludes that emotional expression is acceptable for women, but not for men in
our capitalistic society. Other researchers have indicated that success for men in
our society is linked to learning suppression of emotionality and to hiding fears,
insecurities, and tender emotions, resulting in failure to self-disclose and to
emotional isolation for males (Chodorow, 1978, Doyle, 1989, Farrell, 1986,
Goldberg, 1976, Miller, 1984, Parson & Bales, 1955). Deborah Tannen, a well
known scholar of gender communications, writes that years of study have led her
to the conclusion that each gender has a communicative style that is akin to a
cultural background. As a consequence, misunderstanding can easily arise in
communication because speakers from different cultures (in this case genders)
have different meanings or interpretations, different linguistic strategies, and
different modes of expression (Tannen, 1994). Using a similar premise, John

Gray’s conceptualization that men and women are from different planets -- Mars

and Venus -- (Gray, 1992) has become very popular with the lay audience,

spawning additional books, seminars, study groups, and television shows.

The differences in male and female communication behaviors are relevant to the
mental health field of couples therapy. Newberry, Alexander, and Turner (1991)
point out that social rules for appropriate behavior are quite clear and may
influence the behavior of therapists. Expert practitioners in the mental health
professions have speculated about the potenb'ally inhibiting or strengthening
effects of different socialization of the genders on therapy (Nut 8. Gottlieb, 1993,
Hare-Mustin & Maraceck, 1992, Warbuton, Newberry, and Alexander, 1989), but

little research has been done to verify these intriguing speculations.

When contemplating gender communication differences, some questions arise.
Are male therapists typical in terms of socialization, finding emotional expression
unacceptable or difficult? If so, does that difficulty have an impact on therapy
sessions conducted by males? Are therapy sessions concluded by females
different from those conducted by males? Do the therapy sessions conducted by
female therapists contain more communication about feelings? Are the males
who become therapists different in their communication behaviors from the

typical male as described by the research?

Purpose Statement

The purpose of the present exploratory study was to investigate whether there
are differences in male and female therapists in the level of discussion of feelings
with their clients in couples therapy sessions. Specifically, It explored the level
usage of feeling words and feeling expressions (FW/F E) in couples therapy
sessions by male and female student therapists. It also sought to determine if
there were differences in the level of usage of FWIF E by male and female clients
in couples therapy sessions. It also considered whether the use of a feeling word
or feeling expression by a therapist elicited a client response that contained a
feeling word or expression thus raising the level of usage of feeling words or
feeling expressions on the part of the clients. And finally, it considered whether
time affects discussion of feelings in a couples therapy session by noting whether

discussion of feelings increased as the session progressed.

CHAPTER II
REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE

The relevant literature forming the basis for this study comes from empirical
research conducted in four areas: Male-female socialization, gender
communications, gender communications in therapy, and efficacious therapy.
While no studies similar to this proposed study were found, there seemed to be
ample indication from these four bodies of research that this kind of study would

be both relevant and informative.

MaleIFemale Socialization

Much of the literature on male-female socialization finds definitive differences in
socialization of the genders that has a marked impact on behaviors and
specifically on communication behaviors. Although researchers use varying
terminology or models to describe the differences, similarities can be found.
Chodorow (1974) writes that males and females in our society are socialized
toward different aims. She indicates males develop relational personalities and
develop toward denial of relationships. It is theorized that males must deny
attachment, particularly dependence on another, and must repress and devalue
femininity (Chodorow, 1974). Males need to define themselves sexually as

separate and different from the primary caretaker. The male child has to draw

boundaries and separate. In an industrial society like ours where the father is
often absent, the definition of what is male is not derived from an intimate daily
life relationship with father, but more from being not like mother. In other words,
maleness is not female. Intimacy for male children implies a sense of loss of self
to another. Female children define themselves as similar to and like mother, so
that there is a sense of connectedness and intimacy implying continuity of self

(Chodorow, 1978).

This view is echoed in psychoanalytic theory. It is posited that there are
profound developmental differences in males and females. Female
identifications with mother develop into images of self in relation to others.
Males, on the other hand, must establish a sense of differences from mother and

give up early identifications and wishes to be like her (Lukton, 1992).

There are other models or terminology conceived to illustrate the male-female
differences. One view is that males are socialized to behave instrumentally or
assertively, and to be in positions of power and trust. In contrast, females are
more likely to be socialized to behave expressively, acting as caregivers, valuing
intimacy in relationships, and emphasizing interpersonal skills (Chodorow, 1974;
Gilligan, 1982; Hare-Mustin & Manacek, 1986; Westkott, 1986). In her seminal
work, Gilligan (1982) theorizes that males make moral decisions based on
abstract principles and see that process as the highest possible level of

functioning. Females put the relationship above the principle, placing higher

value on what is good for maintenance and nurturance of the sense of
connectedness. OItner ( 1974) gives another frame in which to envision gender
differences. She is of the opinion that men are equated with culture and women
are equated with nature. Culture is seen as distinct from and superior to nature
in that culture can transform (socialize or culturalize) nature. Sattel (1983)
expresses the opinion that our society expects boys and then men to devalue
expressiveness because they are expected to grow up and hold positions of
power and prestige. Further, it is an effective exercise of power to give the
appearance that one’s entire behavior is the result of unemotional rationality.

Being impersonal and inexpressive lends "rightness” to decisions and position.

In summary, it seems reasonable to conclude that males and females are
socialized differently in our society, resulting in differences in communication

behaviors.

Gender Communications

An examination of the research in gender communication finds support for the
existence of differences between male and female communication behaviors. A
consistent finding is that women are perceived to be or report being more
expressive communicators (Pruett, 1989). In a meta-analysis of eight studies

using both self and other reports which included communicator style and

biological sex, Pruett found men to be more dominant, dramatic, and contentious,

and women to be more animated, attentive, open, and friendly.

Also relevant to this study is Tannen’s assertion that women give each other a lot
of direct verbal and physical feedback in conversation, and that men don’t
provide each other with ongoing verbal and non-verbal feedback (Tannen, 1990).
This may prove explanatory if this study finds differences in male and female

therapists.

Additional studies verify the existence of differences in communication behaviors.
Aries (1976) found that males develop more ways for expressing competition and
leadership than do females. Females develop more ways to express affection
and interpersonal concern. Another finding of the study was that males in all-
male groups talk very little about themselves or their relationships, while females
in all-female groups share a great deal of information about their feelings and
their relationships. Further, gender of the partner determined interaction patterns
(Carli, 1989). When instructed to influence a partner, it was found that males
exhibited a higher percentage of disagreements with other males than with
females. Disagreements were found to be negatively associated with influence.
Fishman ( 1983), seeking to determine the role of power in daily interactions,
found that women engaged in strategies to produce and maintain conversational
interaction. Female subjects used more questions and attention beginnings

(phrases such as “this is interesting”) and supported male conversation. Men

subjects, on the other hand, relied on statements and expected responses to
them. Men more frequently discouraged interactions than women did. Similarly,
Simkins-Bullock and Wildman (1991) pointed to powerful and powerless

language features, used by powerful (male) and powerless (female) speakers.

Studies aimed at assessing marital communication behaviors also find some
gender differences in communication behaviors. Honeycutt (1989) found that
both married and divorced females believe they have the greater responsibility
for the expression of feelings in their relationships. Both married and divorced
males agreed, attributing the expression of feelings to their partners. White
(1989) determined that marital satisfaction could be differentiated on the basis of
degree of coercive vs. affiliative communication and inferred the data could be
interpreted as attempts of two different sexes to solve problems drawing on their
socialization: males taking control to distance and analyze the situation, and

females maintaining connection long enough to figure out what to do.

Thus the empirical research on male/female socialization and on gender
communication seems to dovetail, both indicating gender differences in
socialization and communication behaviors and some indication of relatedness

between the two.

Gender Communications in Therapy

Review of the literature specific to gender communications in therapy yields both

additional germane findings and the need for additional studies like the one being

proposed in this area. Several studies were found exploring aspects of gender in

relation to family therapy:

Mas, Alexander, and Barton (1995) determined that there were differences in
both the frequency and kind of communications used by mothers, fathers, and

adolescents in family therapy depending on the gender of the therapist.

In a study to determine differences in male and female therapist use of
executive and joining skills, Shields and McDaniel (1992) found that male
therapists talked more than female therapists, that male therapists were more
instrumental and directive than female therapists, and that both the male
therapists and the families they worked with engaged in more battles related
to power and control. That is, families argued about logistics or structure of
treatment, tried to control the direction of treatment, and/or disagreed with the

therapist more frequently when the therapist was male.

In a survey of clinician members of the American Association for Marriage
and Family Therapy and the American Association of Sex Educators,

Counselors, it was determined that therapist gender did not have an effect on

male and female therapists’ prognostic decisions, but that gender did
influence which client characteristics were used to formulate prognostic
decisions. Female therapists used “seriousness of the presenting problem”
and “spouse’s satisfaction with sexual intercourse.” Male therapists used
“wife’s desired frequency of sexual intercourse: and “husband’s sexual

satisfaction” (Zygmond 8: Denton, 1988).

Snell, Hampton, and McManus (1992) sought to determine factors associated
with client willingness to disclose personal information. They found that
women are more willing to disclose personal information and that both men
and women are more willing to disclose such information to a female
counselor. Further, the study found that relational consciousness (defined as
awareness of the dynamic internal features of one’s relationship) predicted

women’s willingness to disclose. The same was not found to be true for men.

In an earlier study contradictory to the above, Stokes, Childs, and Fuehrer
(1981) found males reporting numerically greater willingness to self-disclose.
Disclosure in this study was not determined in a therapeutic context, which

may account for the differing results.

In a review of the literature on gender communication in martial therapy,

O’Donohue and Crouch (1996) point out that we must understand both the

10

client and therapist gender expectations in order to accurately interpret the

role of gender in interactions among them.

A number of expert practitioners have offered their insight on the role of gender
in therapy. In a discussion of personal authority and competence for trainee
female therapists, Reid, McDaniel, Donaldson, and Tellers (1987) caution that
dependent behavior and attitudes are interactional problems that must be
overcome in the process of training. They also offer their observation that women
frequently seem to have difficulty differentiating maintenance and support from
caretaking and over-functioning. Philpot (1991) offers an opinion on gender-
sensitive therapists. He indicates that ideally they are knowledgeable about and

consider:

“...the differing perception of reality for men and women growing
out of biological differences, male/female developmental theory,
socialization in a capitalist/patIiarchal society, value systems, levels
of moral development, role-definitions and real power differentials

in the political, economic and legal arenas” (p. 19).

In an article they describe as both personal and political, Reimers and Dimmock
(1990) discuss gender issues for male therapists from their perspective as male
therapists. They speculate that males are not trained in personal problem

solving as children, which leaves them poor problem solvers as adults in

11

relationships. Calling for additional research, they pose the following questions
as indicative of challenges men, and in particular male therapists, may have

should they want to be effective:

0 Do we want to help the men we meet in therapy to address the issues
of balancing work and family life? Do we want to learn from other
men’s experiences and share what they mean, good and bad?

. Do we really want to know about the experience of women in the
world? Are we prepared to listen when they tell us?

. Can we be caring and affectionate toward gins in therapy without
resorting to seduction? Can we help fathers struggle with expressing
their affection for their daughters? Can we help them empower their

daughters?

Addressing the isomorphism that exists in therapy and supervision of therapy,
Rigazio-Digillio, Anderson, and Kunkler (1995) recommend that supervisors need
to engage in the types of collaborative dialogues that promote multiple ways to
conceptualize and approach gender. Similarly, Roberts (1991) addressing
gender issues in family therapy training, indicates that in order to be effective,
therapists have to work to understand gender at three levels: 1) personal
experiences with gender; 2) gendered interactions in our professional lives, and

3) gender work with clients.

12

Studies to determine preferences for therapist gender may also be relevant to the
proposed study. Pikus and Heavey (1996) found that clients who have a gender
preference believe that therapists of the same gender will understand their
problems better, and that it is easier to talk with a particular gender. Stamler,
Christiansen, Staley, and Macagno-Shang, (1991) found that females were more
likely to express a gender preference and that female clients who saw a female
intake counselor were twice as likely to express a preference, with the opposite

being true for males in the study.

In summary, the literature on gender in therapy supports the importance of

considering gender as a variable, but leaves much as yet unstudied.

Efflcacious Therapy

Finally, it seems necessary to review the literature on therapy to determine
whether understanding and communicating about feelings in therapy is
considered important to an effective result. Many types of therapy exist, some of
which aim to access previously unacknowledged feelings. Often, therapists
assist clients to reprocess experiences in the present in order to construct
previously disavowed emotions (Dandeneau & Johnson, 1994). One type of
therapy, Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) is based precisely on the premise

that identifying and disclosing underlying feelings to a responsive partner is both

13

helpful and effective. EFT outcome research is available and robust in

comparison to some other types of therapy (Greenberg, Elliott, & Letaer, 1994).

The goal of EFT is to access, express, and reprocess emotional responses
underlying each partner’s interaction patterns to increase accessibility and
responsiveness (Johnson 8. Greenberg, 1987). The disclosure of underlying
feelings to a responsive partner has been shown to increase intimacy both at the
time of the occurrence and over time following the occurrence (Dandeneau &
Johnson, 1994). Research relating process to outcome in marital therapy
suggests that therapists should focus on facilitating self-disclosure and
exploration (Johnson 8. Greenberg, 1988). Therapy to facilitate the expression of
emotion was found to be effective as measured by four outcome measures and

self-sustaining as found on two of the measures (Johnson & Greenberg, 1985).

Further, some therapies which discourage the expression of emotion have been
found to be less or ineffective. Cognitive marital therapy (CMT) discourages the
expression of affect in treatment of marital discord and was found to be less
effective for couples (Denton, 1991 ). Integrative systemic therapy has been

found helpful at the time, but less self-sustaining (Goldman 8 Greenberg, 1992).

This study is undertaken with the assumption that exploration of feelings in

couples therapy sessions is important to a satisfactory outcome from therapy.

14

CHAPTER III

RESEARCH METHODOLOGY

Research Objectives

The objective of this study was to determine if therapist gender differences exist

in using feeling words and feeling expressions (FWIFE) during marital therapy

sessions. In addition, the study took note of:

. The impact of using FW/F E on the interactions in therapy sessions.

. Whether the usage of FWIF E increases as the therapy session

progresses.

This determination, if replicated in various settings, would inform the content of

therapy training programs.

Research Design

This was an exploratory descriptive study of therapist gender differences in the

use of FW/F E. The sample studied was small (see Sampling Process below).

15

Therefore, research questions rather than hypotheses were more appropriate to

guide the researcher.

Research Questions

Two major research questions guided this study:

1. How does gender affect the use of FWIFE during a couples therapy

session?

2. Does the use of FWIFE increase through the segments of the session.

More specifically, the study addressed the following questions:

1. Did male therapists use FW/F E less than female therapists in the sample?

2. Did male clients use FWIFE less than female clients?

3. Did male therapists use more FW/F E in interactions with female clients

than in interactions with male clients?

4. Did female therapists use more FWIF E in interactions with female clients

than in interactions with male clients?

16

5. When either a male or a female therapist used a feeling word or feeling
expression, did the female clients respond with a feeling word or feeling

expression?

6. When either a male or a female therapist used a feeling word or feeling
expression, did the male clients respond with a feeling word or feeling

expression?

7. Did the frequency of use of feeling words/feeling expressions by male

therapists and clients increase as the therapy session progressed?

8. Did the frequency of use of feeling words/feeling expressions by female

therapists and clients increase as the therapy session progressed?

Conceptual and Operational Definitions

The terms “emotion” or “feeling” are used often and broadly in psychology and
psychotherapy. The terms tend to be used interchangeably. To illustrate,
Webster’s New World Dictionary defines psychology as the science dealing with
the mind and with mental and emotional processes (p.1086). Pierce (1983)
indicates that feelings are central to all humans and every psychotherapy treats

feelings, aptly summarizing the ubiquitousness of these terms. Because this

17

study used FWIFE as its unit of analysis, it was necessary to narrow the

definitions.

Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) provides the organizing concepts for this
study. As stated earlier, the goal of EFT is to access, express, and reprocess
emotional responses underlying a couple’s interaction patterns to increase the
accessibility and responsiveness the partners have to each other (Johnson &
Greenberg, 1987). EFT also assists in defining the concepts of emotion and
feeling. In EFT there is a distinction made between “emotion” and “feeling”
(Johnson & Greenberg, 1990). Emotions are labeled as primary and are thought
to be anger, sadness, fear, joy, disgust, and surprise. Feelings are more subtle
terms that are useful for finer distinctions of blends of emotions. More

specifically, Johnson and Greenberg say:

“ . . .we use the word feeling to refer to all the finer differentiations
of human affective experience. Feelings are dependent on learning
and are idiosyncratic. Emotions are innate and universal (page

133):

They further elaborate that both feelings and emotions are conscious
experiences. The basic emotions represent innate, universal aspects of the
human experience available to consciousness. The feeling terms represent

individually learned, cultural/social cognitive/emotional syntheses. The more

18

subtle feeling terms (of which there are hundreds) are “useful for finer distinctions

of emotion blends and emotion/cognition integrations” (p. 138).

An important premise in EFT is that primary emotions are rarely in awareness
when a client begins therapy. The goal of therapy is then to bring fliem into
awareness by accessing, expressing, and reprocessing the emotional responses
underlying each partner’s actions and thereby facilitate a shift in these the

actions toward being accessible and responsive to each other.

Since this study measured aspects of the interaction between client and therapist
that is aimed at accessing and expressing emotions and feelings, it was
necessary to further delineate the criteria that caused a therapist or client
utterance to be included or counted as a feeling word or a feeling expression.

The following describes the criteria for inclusion that was utilized for the study:

. Therapists’ utterances were counted when they are designed to elicit or
access a feeling or emotion from a client. Said another way, if the
therapist says something designed to get a client to express something
about an emotional state, the utterance will be counted. Example — the

therapist says, “I wonder what you were feeling when that happened.”

. Therapists’ utterances were counted when they are self-disclosures

describing a feeling or emotion the therapist has or has had. Example —

19

the therapist says, “I sometimes feel very angry when it seems my wife

isn’t listening to me.”

Clients’ utterances were counted when they are relating a feeling or
emotion. Example — the client says, “I feel lost and sad when I think about

that.”

When clients are described feelings but used “we” instead of “I” and the
utterances provide insight to their own feelings, the utterances were

counted. Example — the client says, “We were both feeling very sad.”

Therapists’ and Clients’ utterances were not counted when they begin an
utterance with the words “I feel” but then go on to describe a situation, or
state an idea or an interpretation of something. Determining if the word
“think” can be substituted for the word “feel” helps to identify this kind of
utterance. Such utterances were not counted because they do not give
insight into feelings or emotions. Example - the client says, “I feel that I

need to take action.”

When clients described their partner’s feelings or emotions, rather than

their own, the utterances were not counted. Example -— the client says, “I

felt Joe was angry.”

20

In an effort to determine if the above criteria were sufficient to define the unit of
measurement, FW/F E, the researcher performed a pre-test. The pre-test is

described in the Data Collection section below as Stage 1.

The independent variable in this study is the therapists’ use of FWIF E. The
dependent variable is the clients’ use of FWIFE. The control variables are the

therapist’s gender and the client’s gender.

The following are additional operational definitions needed for this study:

Gender: For the purposes of this study, gender is the observed gender as

opposed to individually determined gender.

Clients: Couples who have utilized at least four therapy sessions at a mid-

western university family and child clinic.

Couples: Two pe0ple, one of whom appears to be male and one of whom
appears to be female, involved in some kind of intimate or

committed relationship including, but not limited to marriage.

Family and Child Clinic: A training facility for the Marriage and Family

Therapy degree program at an AAMFT-accredited mid-westem

university.

21

Master’s-level Therapist: Master's degree student with between one and

five hundred direct client contact hours.

PhD-level Therapist: PhD. student with between five hundred and one

thousand direct client contact hours.

Session Segment #1: The first fifteen minutes of a therapy session.

Session Segment #2: The second fifteen minutes of a therapy session.

Session Segment #3: The third fifteen minutes of a therapy session.

Session Segment #4: The final segment of a therapy session.

Therapist: A graduate student learning marital and family therapy as part

of a master’s practicum or a Ph.D. internship.

Therapy Session: A session including a couple and a therapist. All
sessions used in this study are the fourth session or the fourth
occasion a couple came to the mid-western university family and

child clinic for therapy.

VIdeotaping: It is the policy of this mid-western university family and child
clinic to videotape all client sessions (with written client permission)
for the purposes of Ieaming and supervision. \fIdeotapes of the
intake, first, fourth or tenth, or final sessions are retained for the

purpose of research.

Unit of Transcription and Analysis: Five minutes of each of session

segments 1, 2, 3, and 4 were transcribed for analysis in this study.

Sampling Process

It is the policy of this mid-western university’s family and child clinic that student
therapists videotape therapy sessions with clients. The videotapes are then
reviewed and used by the supervisors of student therapists to guide Ieaming.
VIdeotapes of the intake, first, fourth or tenth, and final sessions with clients are
retained in a videotape library to be used for research purposes. The sample for

this study comes from that videotape library.1

VIdeotapes of fourth sessions were used for this study. The researcher chose to

use the fourth session videotapes for three reasons:

 

1Thedataused inthestudywastakenfromadatabasedeveloped by Dr. DoloreeBorIand-Hunt
with computer assistance from Julie Brownell, Graduate Assistant.

23

. The intake and first sessions with clients at the mid-westem university
family and child clinic follow a largely scripted format that limits the

therapists individual technique;

. By the fourth session it is assumed that rapport has developed

between the therapists and the clients;

. Clients do not always continue therapy for ten sessions. Use of the
tenth session tapes further limited the number of tapes available for the

study.

An inventory of the videotape library revealed videotapes of fourth sessions
existed for five different male therapists. All male therapists for whom there were
videotaped fourth sessions were included in the sample. The five male
therapists included two at the Masters level and three at the PhD. level. In a
COAMFT-accredited degree program such as the one at this mid-westem
university, Masters level therapists have between one and five hundred direct
client contact hours, and Ph.D. level therapists have between five hundred and

one thousand direct client contact hours.

All videotaped therapy sessions conducted by or supervised by the researcher

were eliminated from the videotapes of female therapists. To ensure similar

levels of clinical experience as a therapist, the female therapists were matched to

24

the five male therapists by degree level (Masters or Ph.D.). Two Masters level
females therapists were randomly selected from all the female Masters level
therapists for whom tapes were available. Three Ph.D. level therapists were

randomly selected from the female therapists available.

Because this study concerns differences in gender communication, only therapy
sessions with couples were used. When there was more than one fourth session
tape for a therapist, the tapes were sequenced randomly. A few minutes of each
videotape was then reviewed to determine that the session was with a couple
and that the tape quality seemed sufficient for transcription. If a videotape was
not a therapy session with a couple or could not be heard well, the tape was
eliminated and the next tape in the randomly determined sequence was
reviewed. This process continued until a session with a couple with sufficient

audio quality was identified.

The videotapes in the sample were copied onto audiotapes before they were

transcribed. VIdeotapes were copied onto audiotapes for two reasons:

1) Audiotaping allows the subsequent use of dictation equipment, the

features of which facilitate transcription;

25

2) Using an audiotape ensured that no damage occurred to the original
videotape as a result of constant stopping and starting during

transcription.

Data Collection Procedures

Data collection for this study occurred in four stages. In Stage 1, a pre-test was
conducted to ensure that the criteria for determining inclusion of session
utterances as FWIF E were tested for sufficiency. ln Stage 2, the sample was
described. In Stage 3, the actual session tapes were analyzed. In Stage 4, an
analysis of the effect of gender and time was conducted. The following are more

detailed descriptions of the four stages of data collection.

Stage 1 - Pre-test

To ensure the sufficiency of the researchers criteria for including a therapist or
client utterance as a feeling word or a feeling expression (described in the

definitions section above, the researcher used the following steps:

. Four videotapes of couple therapy sessions (two from male therapists and
two from female therapists) were selected. The four tapes selected were

not part of the data used in actual study.

. Each videotape was fast-forwarded to approximately the middle of the
tape

. Five minutes of the videotape was copied onto an audiotape

. The four audiotapes were transcribed and three copies of the transcription
were made

. Using one copy of the transcription, the researcher marked utterances to
be included applying the criteria defined for the study

. Having had the experience of trying to apply the criteria for inclusion, the
researcher amended the criteria to increase its effectiveness

. The other two unmarked copies of the transcription were given to two
experienced therapists who had agreed to test the inclusion criteria by
marking FWIFE in a copy of the transcript The two experienced
therapists were also given copies of the inclusion criteria, and the
researcher answered their questions about the pre-test.

. The marked transcripts completed by the two experienced therapists were
compared with that of the researcher. Inter-rater reliability was 79%

. The researcher again amended the criteria for inclusion based on

comments from the therapists who participated in the pre-test.

Pretest transcription is included in the Appendix A.

27

Stage 2 - Identification and Transcription of Time Segments for Analysis

Therapy sessions at the mid-westem university family and child clinic are
intended to be fifty minutes long. In actuality, student therapists are learning to
control session time so that there is variation in total session times. With that in

mind, the following steps were followed for each case:
1. \fIdeotaped therapy sessions were audiotaped onto audiotape #1.
Footage and time for each tape was noted, beginning when the clients
and therapist entered the therapy room and ending when the clients and

therapist left the room.

2. Using total footage the therapy session tape was divided into four equal

segments.

3. The midpoint (in footage) of each segment was determined.

4. Five minutes from the midpoint of each of the four segments was

transferred to audio tape #2.

5. The twenty minutes (the four five minute segments) of audiotape #2 was

transcribed.

28

Stage 3 - Identification and Counting Units of Analysis

Images in this dissertation are presented in color. FW/F E were highlighted in the
transcribed segments by the use of colored fonts. Red was used to indicate

FWIF E that were counted as such. Blue indicates discussion that was situational
in nature and did not fit the criteria for inclusion as a FWIF E. The interaction was
identified as coming from the therapist or each member of the couple, and tallied.

The complete transcription from the 10 cases is found in Appendix C.

Stage 4 - Qualitative Interpretation of the Dam

Following the analysis described above, the researcher watched the videotapes

of the entire sessions several times and recorded her qualitative impressions on

the form found in Appendix D. This qualitative analysis found in Chapter V.

29

CHAPTER IV
RESULTS AND DISCUSSION

Description of the Sample

All of the clients in the sample used for this study appeared to be Caucasian with

the exception of the male partner in Case #M3. That gentleman’s name and

appearance suggested he is an eastern Indian. The therapists were all

Caucasians. The average age of the clients in the sample was 37 years for

males and 35 years for females. The average length of the relationships in the

sample was 7 years. Further information describing the sample is found in Table

1 and Table 2. (The male therapist cases are labeled M1 through M5, and the

female therapist cases are labeled F1 through F5.)

Table 1. Description of Sample: Male Therapists’ Cases

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therapists Clients
Clinical Age Ethnicity Education Length of
Case Experience FC MC FC MC FC MC Relationship

30 36 White White High School High School Unknown

M1 Ph.D. Presenting Problem: ere had affair; husband retaliated by having an affair
28 31 White White Some college Unknown 4.5 years

M2 Ph.D. Presenting Problem: Reduce anger/conflict in the marriage
29 40 White Indian B.A., plus 8.8., plus 2 years

M3 Master’s Presenting Problem: Marital conflict Considering ending marriage

 

 

 

30

Table 1, continued

 

 

 

Therapists Clients
Clinical Age Ethnicity Education Length of
Case Experience FC MC F C MC FC MC Relationship

 

4o 28 White White HighSchool HighSchool 1.5years

 

M4 Master’s Presenting Problem: Court-ordered therapy resulting from domestic assault

 

33 36 White White 8.8. Somecollege 15years

 

M5 Master's Presenting Problem: Difficulty communicating. Differencesin parenting

 

 

 

Avg. 32 34 5.8 years

 

Table 2. Description of Sample: Female Therapists’ Cases

 

 

 

Therapist Clients
Case Clinical Age Ethnicity Education Length of
Experience FC MC FC MC FC MC Relationship

 

31 38 White White Sornecollege HighSchool 7years

 

F1 PhD. Presenting problem: Improve cornmuniceting and parenting

 

40 45 White White Somecollege HighSchool 3years

 

F2 PhD. Presenting problem: Parenting problems between bio-morn and step-morn

 

40 35 White White 8.8. Sornecollege 8years

 

F3 Master’s Presenting problem: Communication, handling stress, not enough time

 

Associate’s

35 41 White White B.A. plus Degree Byears

 

F4 Master’s Presenting problem: MistnIst-wifehadandlair

 

 

 

 

 

 

Associate’s
42 41 White White BA Degree 17years
F5 Master's Presenting problem: Husbandgetsangry
Avg. 38 40 8.8years

 

31

Research Question 1
Do male therapists use feeling words and feeling expressions (FWIFE) more

than female therapists?
Male therapists in this study used fewer FWIF E than the female therapists (see
Table 3). Female therapists used FWIFE 3 times or 12% more than male

therapists.

Table 3. Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions

 

Male Therapists # FWIF E Used Female Therapists #FWIFE Used

 

Case M1 4 Case F 1 2
Case M2 3 Case F2 1
Case M3 6 Case F3 14
Case M4 10 Case F4 0
Case M5 2 Case F5 11
Total Used 25 Total Used 28
% Total 47.2% % Total 52.8%

 

The variation in rates of usage should be noted. One therapist (a female) used
no FWIFE during the 20 minutes transcribed from the session, the lowest usage
in the study. Another female therapist used feeling words and feeling

expressions 14 times in the 20 minutes transcribed, the highest usage in the

32

study. Although female therapists as a group had the higher total use of FWIF E,
five male therapists used more FW/F E than three of the female therapists (see

Table 4).

Table 4. Ranked Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions

 

Therapist Usage # FWIFE Therapist + Client Usage # FW/F E

 

Female - Case F3 14 Female - Case F5 23
Female - Case F5 11 Female — Case F3 22
Male - Case M4 10 Male - Case M4 19
Male - Case M3 6 Male — Case M1 15
Male — Case M1 4 Male — Case M3 11
Male — Case M2 3 Male - Case M5 9
Male - Case M5 2 Male - Case M2 8
Female - Case F 1 2 Female - Case F1 4
Female - Case F2 1 Female - Case F4 2
Female — Case F4 0 Female — Case F2 1

 

There was less variation in the male therapists’ usage of FWIFE. The standard
deviation for the FWIFE usage of the male therapists is 3.16. The standard
deviation for the FWIFE usage of the female therapists is 6.43 reflecting the

greater variation in the female therapists’ use of FWIFE (see Table 5).

Table 5. Standard Deviations for Therapist Use and Combined Therapist/Client

Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions

 

 

Therapist Use Combined Therapist/Client Use
Female Male Therapist Female Male Therapist
Therapist Cases Cases Therapist Cases Cases
Mean 5.60 5.00 10.40 12.40
Std. Deviation 6.43 3.16 1 1.10 4.56

 

 

When FWIFE usage of the therapists and clients is combined, use of FWIF E was
higher in four male therapist sessions than in three female therapist sessions
(see Table 4). Again the usage of FWIF E shows less variation in the male
therapist sessions as shown in standard deviations of 4.56 for the male
therapists with clients and 11.1 for the female therapists with clients (see

Table 5).

Research uestion 2
Do male clients use feeling words and feeling expressions more than female

clients?

Taken as a total group, male clients used FWIFE 22 times or 77% less than
female clients (also combined) who used FWIFE 39 times (see Table 6).

However when the male clients are separated by therapist gender, male clients

in sessions with female therapists used 40% more FWIFE than female clients in

the same sessions (see Table 7).

Table 6. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions

 

Male Clients Female Clients

 

 

 

 

Case M1 1 10
Male Case M2 0 5
Therapist Case M3 2 3
Cases Case M4 3 6
Case M5 2 5
Case F 1 0 2
Female Case F2 0 0
Therapist Case F3 7 1
Cases Case F4 0 2
Case F5 7 5
Total 22 39
% Total 36% 64%

 

Table 7. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions (FWIF E) by Therapist

Gender

 

Female Total Male Total

Therapists FWIFE % Total Therapists FWIFE % Total Total

 

Male Clients 14 (58.3%) Male Clients 8 (21.6%) 22

Female Clients 10 (41.7%) Female Clients 29 (78.4%) 39

 

Total 24 37 61

 

Research uestion 3

Do male therapists use feeling words and feeling expressions in interactions with

female clients more than in interactions with male clients?

Male therapists in this study were egalitarian with respect to using FW/F E with
male clients and with female clients, using 10 FWIF E (40%) with each gender
(see Table 8). Male therapists used FWIFE when speaking with the couple (not

specifically addressing either the male or the female client) 20% of the time.

Table 8. Male Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Client

Gender

 

Clients

 

Male Therapists To Female To Male To Couple

 

 

Case M1 2 2 0
Case M2 2 1 0
Case M3 1 2 3
Case M4 3 5 2
Case M5 2 0 0
Total 10 10 5
% Total 40% 40% 20%

 

Research uestion 4
Do female therapists use feeling words and feeling expressions in interactions

with female clients more than in interactions with male clients?

Female therapists in this study used more FWIF E when speaking to the couple
than when speaking with either the male or female client (see Table 9). It should
be noted that one female therapist used 10 FW/F E when speaking with the
couple, skewing this result and negating its value in generalizing. By contrast,
three other female therapists used no FW/F E when speaking with the couples

and a fourth used only 2 FWIF E with speaking with the couple. Also of note is

37

that when FWIFE were used when speaking with one of the clients by female
therapists, it was 67% more likely the interaction would be directed to the male

client than to the female client.

Table 9. Female Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Client

Gender

 

Clients

 

Female Therapists To Female To Male To Couple

 

 

Case F1 2 0 0
Case F2 1 0 0
Case F3 2 2 10
Case F4 0 0 0
Case F5 1 8 2
Total 6 10 12
% Total 21% 36% 43%

 

Research uestion 5
When a male therapist uses a feeling word or feeling expression, do the clients
respond with a feeling word or feeling expression and does that vary by gender

of client?

The use of a FW/F E by the male therapists did not result in the client responding
with a FWIFE the majority of the time. When male therapists used FWIF E,
clients responded with a FWIF E 7 of 25 times or 28.0% of the time (see Table
10). It was over three times more likely that the clients would not respond with a

FWIFE.

Table 10. Client Response to Male Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling

Expressions

 

Total FWIF E Response
Directed To Response Without

Direction Clients WIth FW/F E FW/F E

 

 

 

MT—>MC 2 1 1
Case M1 MT—)FC 2 1 1
MT—>C o o o
MT->MC 1 o 1
Case M2 MT—>FC 2 1 1
MT—eC 0 0 O
MT—+MC 2 o 2
Case M3 MT—>FC 1 1 0

MT—>C 3 0 3

 

39

Table 10, continued

 

Total FWIFE Response
Directed To Response Without

Direction Clients With FW/F E FWIFE

 

 

 

 

 

MT-—>MC 5 1 4
Case M4 MT—>FC 3 0 3
MT—>C 2 0 2
MT—>MC 0 0 0
Case M5 MT—>FC 2 2 0
MT—sC 0 O 0
MT—>MC 10 2 8
Totals MT—>FC 10 5 5
MT-—)C 5 0 5
Totals - All Cases 25 7 18
% Total 28% 72%

 

In the male therapists’ cases, the female clients were 1.5 times more likely to
respond with a FW/F E than the male clients. Female clients responded with
feeling words or feeling expressions 5 of 10 times. No FWIF E directed to the

couple were responded to with a FWIFE.

40

Research uestion 6
When a female therapist uses a feeling word or feeling expression, do the clients
respond with a feeling word or feeling expression and does that vary by gender

of client?

As with male therapists, the use of a FWIF E by the female therapist did not result
in the client responding with a FWIFE the majority of the time. When female
therapists used FW/F E, clients were over 3 times more likely not to respond with
a FWIFE. Clients responded with FWIFE 6 of 28 times or 21.4% of the time (see

Table 11).

Table 11. Client Response to Female Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling

Expressions

 

Total FWIF E Response
Directed To Response Without
Direction Clients WIth FWIF E FWIFE

 

FT—sFC 2 1 1
Case F1 FT—>MC o o o
FT—sC o o o

41

 

 

 

 

 

 

Table 11, continued
Total FW/F E Response
Directed To Response Without
Direction Clients With FWIFE FWIFE
FT—-)FC 1 0 1
Case F2 FT—)MC 0 0 0
FT—>C 0 0 0
FT—>FC 2 1 1
Case F3 FT—)MC 2 2 O
FT—>C 10 0 10
FT—>F C 0 0 0
Case F4 FT—>MC o o o
FT—)C O 0 0
FT-+FC 1 0 1
Case F5 FT—sMC 8 2 6
FT—>C 2 0 2
FT->FC 6 2 4
Totals FT—sMC 1o 4 6
FT—>C 12 0 12
Totals - All Cases 28 6 22

 

% Total

21%

79%

 

42

The male clients in the female therapist cases were 50% more likely to respond
to a FWIF E than were the female clients. As with male therapist cases, when a

FWIF E was directed to the couple, there were no responses containing FW/F E.

Research uestion 7
Did the frequency of use of feeling words/feeling expressions by male therapists

and clients increase as the therapy session progressed?

Time did not have an impact on the use of FWIFE in the male therapists’
sessions. None of the male therapists had consistently increasing usage of
FWIF E as the session progressed in time (see Table 12). While two of the male
therapists showed an increase in use of FW/F E when comparing the last time
segment to the first time segment of the session, there was not a consistent

pattern of increasing usage from each time segment to the next time segment.

Table 12. Male Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Session

Time Segments

 

Time 1]
Time Time Time Time Time 4

1 2 Change 3 Change 4 Change Change

 

 

Case M1 2 o (2) 0 NC 2 +2 NC
Case M2 0 0 NC 2 +2 1 (1) +1
Case M3 2 4 +2 0 (4) 0 NC (2)
Case M4 2 1 (1 ) 4 +3 3 (1) +1
Case M5 0 2 +2 0 (2) 0 NC NC
Total Male 6 7 +1 6 (1) 6 NC NC

 

Similarly, client usage of FWIFE did not increase consistently as the male
therapists’ sessions progressed in time (see Table 13). Although there was 1
case in which there was an increase in the use of FWIFE comparing the last time
segment to the first time segment, no cases had a consistent pattern of client

FW/FE use from each time segment to the next time segment.

Table 13. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Session Time

Segments in Male Therapist Sessions

 

Time 1]
Time Time Time Time Time 4

1 2 Change 3 Change 4 Change Change

 

 

Case M1 3 4 +1 0 (4) 4 +4 +1
Case M2 1 3 +2 1 (2) 0 (1) (1)
Case M3 2 2 NC 1 (1) 0 (1) (2)
Case M4 3 2 (1) 1 (1) 3 +2 NC
Case M5 4 3 (1 ) 0 (3) 0 NC (4)
Total

Client 13 14 +1 3 (11) 7 +4 (6)

 

Research Question 8
Did the frequency of use of feeling words/feeling expressions by female

therapists and clients increase as the therapy session progressed?

As with the male therapists, there was not a consistent increase in the therapist
use of FW/FE as the female therapists’ sessions progressed in time (see Table
14 and Table 15). Four female therapists’ usage of FWIFE increased when

comparing the first time segment to the last time segment of their sessions, but

again, this does not represent a revealing pattern. Three therapists used less

FW/FE in one of the time segments than they had in the previous time segment,
one had two time segments in which there was no change in the level of usage of
FWIFE, and one used no FWIFE. None of these results represent a consistent
pattern.

Table 14. Female Therapist Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by

Session Time Segments

 

Time 1]
Time Time Time Time Time 4

1 2 Change 3 Change 4 Change Change

 

 

Case F1 0 0 NC 1 +1 1 NC +1
Case F2 0 1 +1 0 (1 ) 0 NC NC
Case F3 3 3 NC 0 (3) 8 +8 +5
Case F4 0 0 NC 0 NC 0 NC Nc
Case F5 1 o (1) 2 +2 8 +6 +7
Total 4 4 NC 3 (1) 17 +14 +13

 

Similarly, the clients in the female therapists’ sessions did not increase the level
of their use of FWIFE as the sessions progressed (see Table 15). The usage of
FWIFE appears sporadic, not showing a consistent pattern in relation to time of

the session.

Table 15. Client Use of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions by Session Time

Segments in Female Therapist Sessions

 

Time 1]
Time Time Time Time Time 4

1 2 Change 3 Change 4 Change Change

 

 

 

Case F1 0 0 NC 2 +2 0 (2) NC
Case F2 0 0 NC 0 NC 0 NC NC
Case F3 2 4 +2 2 (2) 0 (2) (2)
Case F4 2 0 (2) 0 NC 0 NC (2)
Case F5 2 0 (2) 6 +6 4 (2) +2
Total 6 4 (2) 10 +6 4 (6) (2)
Analysis of Gender Effects

The data were further analyzed to determine if gender of the therapist predicted
the use of FWIFE. Using a t-test, therapist gender was not found to be

significant in this exploratory study (see Table 16).

Table 16. t-Test for Significance of Therapist Gender

 

 

 

Total Mean Std. Error 95% Confidence Interval
Therapist t df Sig Difference Difference Lower Upper
FWIFE -.187 5.83 .858 -.60 3.20 -8.49 -7.29

 

47

The same test, a t-test, was used to determine if client gender predicted the use
of FWIFE. Client gender was significant in predicting the use of feeling

words/feeling expressions (see Table 17).

Table 17. t-Test for Significance of Client Gender

 

Mean 95% Confidence Interval

 

 

 

t df Sig Difference Upper Lower
Female Client 4.219 9 .002 3.90 1.81 5.99
Male Client 2.538 9 .032 2.20 .24 4.16
Analysis of Time Effects

As mentioned earlier, no consistent patterns were found the data were further
analyzed to determine if time predicted the use of FW/F E by the therapists or by
the clients. Time did not effect the use of FWIFE by the therapists or by the
clients (see Table 19).

Table 19. Use of FWIFE by Group by Time Segment

 

Time1 Time2 Change Time3 Change Time4 Change

 

 

 

MT 6 7 +1 6 (1) 6 NC
FT 4 4 NC 3 (1) 17 +14
MC 9 5 (4) 5 NC 3 (2)
Fc 10 13 . +3 8 (5) 8 NC
Total 29 29 NC 22 (7) 34 +12
DISCUSSION

Prior research results in socialization and gender communication points to
differences in males and females with respect to communicating about feelings.
Considering those results in relation to additional research results in the areas of
gender communication in therapy and the importance of understanding and
communicating about feelings in couples therapy, the question of whether male
therapists might be less inclined to discuss feelings in couples therapy sessions
arises. This exploratory study looked at the use of FW/F E in ten couples therapy
sessions by therapist and client gender, interactions resulting from the use of

FW/F E, and considered use of FWIFE in relation to the time of the session.

Findings in this exploratory study revealed that although gender of the therapist

was not significant in predicting the use of FW/F E, the gender of the client did

49

predict the client use of FWIF E. Similar to the research in gender
communications indicating that females are generally more likely to discuss
feelings than males, the females clients in this study discussed feelings more
than the males clients in couples therapy sessions. To establish the
generalizability of this result, a larger sample and further testing are necessary.
If replicated, the results have important ramificab'ons for the design of training
programs for mental health professionals. For example, therapists may require

explicit baining to assist male clients with discussion of feelings.

Although therapist gender difference was not statistically significant, female
therapists used more FWIFE than male therapists in this study. The variation
among female therapists in this study was striking and necessitates caution
about conclusions. Future studies with larger sample sizes could determine
whether, as in this study, there is consistently more variability among female
therapists than among male therapists. Again if replicated, these findings would
inform therapist training programs and would necessitate that those supervising

training therapists be alert for this kind of variability among trainees.

The results of this study showed that when the therapists used a FWIFE, clients
responded with a FWIFE less than one-quarter (24.5%) of the time. The clients
of male therapists responded to a FWIFE with a FW/F E 28% of the time; the
clients of female therapists responded with a FWIFE 21% of the time. In other

words, in this exploratory study, there is a negative relationship between

therapist and client usage of FWIFE; the more FW/F E used by the therapists, the

less response of FWIFE from the clients.

Further, when the therapists directed FW/FE to the couple, rather than to one of
the clients in particular, there were no FWIF E responses from clients. These
findings indicate the need for further study. If replicated with other therapists in
other settings, the low number of these paired interactions about feelings may
indicate that therapists are too easily deflected from the discussion of feelings
and may need further training to recognize the deflection and bring the client(s)

back to discussion of feelings.

And finally, no consistent relationship between the time of the session and the
usage of FWIFE was found in this study in either therapist usage or client usage.
The premise for exploring this area was that therapists and clients would need
time to re-establish a level of comfort with each other at the beginning of a
session before exploring sensitive areas such as feelings. If the findings that
time does not have an impact on discussion of feelings were replicated in further
studies, therapists could be trained that feelings may be discussed throughout
the session. If time of the session were found significant in other studies, it
would indicate the need for therapists to learn techniques to put clients at ease

before exploring areas of feeling.

51

Limitations

The small sample used for this exploratory study limits generalization of the
findings. Results of this study do provide interesting ideas for additional

research.

The transcription of the couples therapy sessions yielded an additional limitation
from the sample selected for study. In four of the ten sessions in the study
sample, the therapists spent part of the session attending to a task that had the
effect of structuring the interaction between the therapist and client couple. The

tasks were as follows:

a Two of the female therapists spent part of the therapy sessions reviewing
the scores/results from a battery of tests that had been given to the
couples previous to the session. The tests are given to all couples treated
at this mid-westem university family and child clinic and are designed to
assist the therapists in assessing the couples’ relationship difficulties. The
therapists in these two sessions gave the couples a lot of information and
explanation about the meaningflnterpretation of their responses on the
tests. Explaining the test results meant that the therapist was talking for a

lot of the session time.

52

One female therapist spent almost the entire session using a technique
designed to assist couples with communication problems to communicate
more effectively. The technique, called ”Speaker/Listener” requires the
clients to communicate in a structured way (Gottman, 1976). The
technique is designed to assist couples to describe what they are feeling
and to take ownership of their own feelings, but couples often find the
structure awkward as they are Ieaming it. The couple in this session had
a great deal of difficulty with the technique. This meant that the therapist
frequently had to intervene to remind them to follow the structure of the

technique.

One male therapist spent part of the session constructing a genogram with
the couple. A genogram is a tool used by marital and family therapists to
determine patterns occurring across generations in a family. Constructing
the genogram meant that the therapist asked a lot of specific, closed-
ended questions about aspects of the clients’ families and the clients

responded with short answers containing factual information.

Although undertaking these tasks during the sessions did not preclude
discussion of feelings, the structure imposed by the tasks took precedence and
may have resulted in lower usage of F EWIF E. Eliminating sessions with
structured tasks from the samples used in future studies could provide data that

are more consistent with a typical couples therapy session.

53

It should be noted that the researcher considered and reviewed the data
remaining after removing the above cases with structured tasks from the sample.
Because that meant comparison of only 2 female therapist cases with 4 male

therapist cases, the findings seemed meaningless.

One additional limitation is the nature of the training program at this mid-western
university family and child clinic. Training therapists are encouraged to try out
various theoretical methods of therapy. It is possible that some of the therapists
were trying to use a method of therapy in which the discussion of feelings is not
felt to be important. The researcher is familiar with such approaches and did not
find them evident in any of the sessions in the sample, but structuring a sample

to eliminate that possibility in future studies could provide data that are more

typical.

CHAPTER V
ANALYSIS OF THE STUDY FROM A QUALITATIVE PERSPECTIVE

The data that are the basis for this exploratory study lends itself to additional and
different analyses. Matocha (1992) indicates that when a qualitative research
approach is used, the researcher has the freedom to alter methodology to be
responsive to the emerging patterns of data. Each finding can raise more
questions. Using grounded theory methodology, the researcher found herself
constantly resorting and/or re-categorizing the data to see if a finding
represented an emerging pattern or category of meaning (Rafals and Moon,
1996). The study as originally conceived does not make sufficient use of the
data. More can be understood about therapist/client discussion of feelings from

the data using a qualitative approach.

Additional Findings

The most striking finding in this exploratory study is that very few feeling
words/feeling expressions (FWIFE) were used in the couples therapy sessions
regardless of gender of the therapist or client. The data can be used to put this

finding into a larger context.

The data demonstrated that although the therapists took 513 turns speaking
during the transcribed portions of the couples therapy sessions, they used
FW/F E only 53 times or an average of once in every ten turns speaking (see
Table 20). The clients used 61 FWIFE in 973 turns or an average of once in 16
turns. Further, when therapist and client usage of FWIFE is combined, 1486
turns speaking were taken, and FWIFE were used only 114 times. This result is

an average of one time in every thirteen times someone took a turn speaking.

Table 20. Therapist and Client Turns and Feeling Word/Feeling Expression Use

 

Turns FWIFE Use FWIFE Per Turn

 

 

Male Therapists 277 25 .09
Female Therapists 236 28 .12
Female Clients 530 39 .07
Male Clients 443 22 .05
Total 1486 1 14

 

To elaborate further, the longest discussion of feelings was three turns. In other
words, person #1 spoke about a feeling, person #2 spoke about a feeling, and
person #1 spoke about a feeling again. That occurred only four times in three of

the cases in the study. Those incidences are shown below:

Case M1

 

Female Client:

Male Therapist:

Female Client:

Having to explain everything over and over and, you know.
It’s like you feel like a broken record. It’s like I just want
one person, you know. Like you. I feel comfortable with
you. You know, but then again... Whew!

How are you feeling now? I mean in terms of the suicidal
thoughts, ideas.

Oh. It terrifies me to think that I was like that. It was just
so terrifying to think that, you know. I was just really ready

to, you know...

 

Case M2

 

Male Therapist:

Female Client:

Male Therapist:

What's emotional about it? What‘s, what’s the emotion
that you need to have met?

Well, I guess it would probably depend on the
circumstances. Probably either hurt or anger or
something. I don’t know.

What’s the need that you have that causes you to get

upset? That’s not being met?

 

57

Case F5 - Instance #1

 

Female Therapist:

Male Client:

Female Therapist:

How would you respond to that?

That usually the anger... I think it doesn’t come until we've
tried to... We’ve had this confrontation and I’m trying to do
some explaining or some reasoning. And I feel like it
just... It’s not the point it comes to. It comes to the point
of well who’s in power here. And I feel like I’m not being
listened to, and ahhh...

So it’s affects you more on an emotional level?

 

Case F5 - Instance #2

 

Female Therapist:

Male Client:

Female Therapist:

Whereas FC can deal more with issues and get her anger
out there and leave it and it doesn‘t continue to...

She... I feel like I’m just... When we have a
disagreement, I feel like she's just ignoring me. Saying
well, not only am I going to ignore you, but I'm going to say
that I won’t listen to you because you’re not reasonable.
Where I feel like I am being reasonable. And she's just
setting up this alibi for...

So it evokes some of the...

 

Further examination of the transcription reveals that clients “offered” therapists

opportunities to discuss feelings that were not taken by the therapists. The

following are examples in which the therapist does not respond to or “pick up on”
feelings that are being voiced or offered by me client. These examples represent
instances when the therapist could have encouraged more discussion of feelings

and did not:

Example 1 - Male Therapist Case

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment
Female Client: And so then I left and I’m like Client offers feelings of being
I’m just gonna bag it. I’m tired or discouraged and

tired of it. I’m gonna smash hopeless.

my car against a tree. So I

go back down to the house

and get the rest of my bottle

and tell (male son’s name),

“See you, (male son’s

name). You go call your dad

and have your dad come get

you.” You know, I mean I’m

angry.

Male Therapist: What day was this? Therapist ignores feelings

and asks for more
information about the

situation.

 

59

Example 2- Male Therapist Case

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment
Male Client Yes. I'm terribly frustrated. Client offers that he is
Many little things just sets feeling frustrated,
me off. Mostly everything hopeless, and
gets sad or depressing or discouraged.
negative. Nothing to the
future, nothing’s gonna
change that. Nothing to
look, wait and see things.
Everything’s bleak.

Male Therapist: For you? Therapist does not seem to
understand what the client
means and tries to clarify.

Male Client: No. Her response. Her Client offers that he is

response comes in the form feeling tired of the
of all those and I’m just... situation.
I'm very tired of it.

Male Therapist: Okay, that’s FC’s responses. Therapist does not
comment on either of
feelings client has offered.

Male Client: Right.

Example 2- Male Therapist CaseI continued

 

Speaker

Discussion

Comment

 

Male Therapist:

Okay. How do you feel?
You don’t feel things are
bleak? Or do you feel the

same way?

Therapist seems to ignore
the feelings the client
mentioned -— frustration
and tiredness -— and asks
him if he feels the same
way as the female client

feels (bleak, the same

 

 

 

 

way).
Example 3 — Female Therapist Case
Speaker Discussion Comment
Male Client: And it’s hard to have them Client offers feelings of

clean it up. I mean, you

know, so... But that’s a little

stressful for me because I

haven’t been able to get in

there and really do what I

want to do. I want to tear out

the doors and the trim. The

window trim. Paint, you

know. And it’s just real hard

61

stress and frustration.

Example 3 - Female Therapist Case, contined

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment
Male Client, to stand up do it all. So I get
confinued:

frustrated and that because I

can’t do that. I know if I was
better and that I could start
doing that and once I get it
done. And then (male child
#1’s name) could move in and
then... Things... You know
the domino effect. Things
start taking care of themselves
and that. So for me that, you
know, is a source of frustration
sometimes. But I guess it’s
going to take time.

Female Therapist: So you had an instance Therapist ignores the
where... You talked a little bit male client’s feelings and
a couple weeks ago about begins to address the
how if you had dishes and you female client on
rushed them to the table at something else this
night. Left something undone. therapist apparently

wants to get covered.

 

Example 4 - Male Therapist Case

 

Speaker

Discussion Comment

 

Female Client:

It didn’t make sense for me Client says twice that she
to get up with her when he was “really ticked.”
was still up. See what I

mean? And then he did say

well, FC, you’re probably

going to have to take care of

her because I have to go to

bed. Well, I was just kind of

expecting that he would

say... you know... bring her

to bed and then he can get

in bed and I would have

taken over. But then that

comment really made me

mad because it was

saying... You know I wake

up anywhere from her 3-5

times a night with her every

night for the last 5 months

ever since she’s been born.

Ever since she’s been with

 

Speaker

Discussion Comment

 

Female Client,
confinued:

Male Therapist

us. And I didn’t feel like that

was balanced... That wasn’t

fair of MC. So I was really

ticked. And he said that l

breached... That I made a

breach in our relationship. I

called him an asshole. I’ve

never called him that before,

but I was... I was really

ticked. I mean I don’t want

to say that you made me call

you that, but...

She just wanted... You Therapist does not comment
thought since he was up he on anger, he comments on
might as well be taking care the situation at the time.

of her and you thought since

you were supposed to be

working tomorrow she

should take care of her.

Example 5 - Female Therapist Case

 

Speaker Discussion

Comment

 

Male Client I feel like I’m going to get the
blame for it though, whereas
I feel the same feelings.

Female Therapist: And that’s... That’s your,
your perception that is to
react defensively to that
because then it seems like,
“Oh, I’m doing something
wrong and she’s just not
going to approve of.”

Male Client: Um hmm. Or I should be
more in charge of my

thoughts.

Client offers his feeling.

Therapist interprets the
client’s feeling as defensive
rather than empathizing

with what he is feeling

Client agrees with
Therapist’s repudiation of

his feeling.

 

In contrast, only 2 examples of therapists persisting in moving the talk of the

session toward discussion of feeling could be found in the data:

65

Example 1 -- Male Therapist Case

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment

Male Therapist Okay. So you went down to Therapist asks male client
Ingham Medical. Let me ask about a feeling.
you again. As you saw what
was going on, tell me how
you felt.

Male Client I hoped I could try and talk Client evades talking about
her into going and get help. how he felt.

Male Therapist Okay, but how did that make Therapist persists in asking
you feel? for the feeling.

Male Client It made me feel like shit. I Client discloses painful

couldn’t live with her. I had
to leave. I couldn’t stay with

her. She beat me.

feeling.

 

Example 2 - Male Therapist Case

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment
Male Therapist What’s going on for you, MC, Therapist notices client is
right now? ”drifting away” and probes
for the reason.
Male Client Just wondering what time it Client confirms he is not
is. focused on the talk going
on in the session.
Male Therapist Oh.

Female Client

Male Therapist

Doesn’t look like any of us
have watches.

That’s right. Well we’ll just
be here till it’s five o’clock.
When she’s saying those
things to you right now,
what’s that like for you?
Record the emotion. What’s

the word for it?

Therapist dismisses the
time factor and directs the
client to name the feelings
he’s having and tells him

how to do it.

 

If we assume that clinical faculty subscribe to the importance of guiding clients to

explore feelings in therapy sessions, the results of this study are cause for

concern. If these results were replicated in other settings, it would become

important for therapists to increase the session time devoted to exploration of

67

feelings. Student therapists, regardless of gender, may need specific
coursework during their degree program that ensures understanding of the
importance of discussing feelings, emphasizes the dynamics inherent in the
discussion of feelings, and teaches techniques to increase client discussion of
feelings. In addition, supervisors of student therapists would need to emphasize
the exploration of feelings when reviewing therapy sessions with their
supervisees. Additional studies in different clinical situations should be done to

determine if results beyond this study persist in indicating such a need.

Cross-gender talk

A second noteworthy finding in this study concerns Interactions with the opposite
gender. The data reveal that therapists and client interact more with the opposite
gender than with the same gender. More specifically, both therapists and clients
used more FW/F E with the opposite gender, took more turns addressing the
opposite gender, and used more total words in talking to the opposite gender
than they did to the same gender (see Table 21 and Table 22). Talking to the

opposite gender is labeled “cross-gender talk” in this study.

Table 21. Therapist Cross-gender Talk

 

 

 

 

# FWIFE % Total # Turns % Total # Words % Total
Therapists —> Opposite- 20 55.6% 222 52.5% 3861 57.5%
gender Clients
Therapists —) Same- 16 44.4% 201 47.5% 2859 42.5%
_gender Clients
TOTALS 36 423 6720
% Higher with opposite Gender 25.0% 10.4% 35.0%

 

Table 22. Client Cross-gender Talk

 

# FWIFE % Total

# Turns % Total # Words % Total

 

 

 

Clients —+ Opposite- 30 75.0% 320 54.1% 8747 61.9%
gender Therapists

Clients —9 Same-gender 10 25.0% 271 45.8% 5387 38.1%
Therapists

TOTALS 40 - 591 - 141 34 —
% Higher with opposite Gender 300.0% 18.1% 62.4%

 

The cross-gender findings in this study may be the most relevant and informative

pattern found and should be further explored in future studies. Minimally, a

replication of this finding in further studies would have an impact on both training

for and conducting couples therapy. Making use of the tendency to talk more

with the opposite gender could become part of therapy technique. For example,

the therapist might point out the tendency and have opposite-gender client

notice/comment on how it seems different to talk with the partner from talking

with the therapist.

More about the therapists

As mentioned in Chapter 4, results in this exploratory study demonstrated that
female therapists used more FWIFE than male therapists. Looking at that finding
in a larger context, the data revealed that although male therapists used less
FW/F E than female therapists, male therapists took 17% more turns speaking
than the female therapists (see Table 23). In this exploratory study, then, male
therapists spoke more often than female therapists, but were less inclined to

speak about feelings.

Table 23. Comparison of Therapist Turns Speaking With Use of Feeling
Words/Feeling Expressions (FWIFE)

 

Turns % Total FWIFE Use %Total

 

 

Male Therapists 277 54.0% 25 47.2%
Female Therapists 236 46.0% 28 52.8%
Total 513 53

 

The finding that the male therapists took more turns speaking than the female
therapists can be further clarified. The data were used to determine whether
taking more turns speaking equates to actually talking more, as turns speaking
might be short or long. The data demonstrated that female therapists used 14%

more total words and had a longer average turn Speaking (see Table 24). Thus

70

although male therapists took more turns speaking than did female therapists,

their turns were shorter as measured by less words.

Table 24. Total Turns Speaking, Total Words and Words Per Turn by Therapist

 

 

 

Gender

Turns Words Wordsfl'urn
Female Therapists 236 6508 27.6
Male Therapists 277 5731 20.7
TOTAL 1486 32564

 

The clients of these male therapists took more turns and spoke more words than
clients of female therapists (see Table 25). This raises at least two questions for
clarification in further research studies: 1) Do clients of male therapists take
more turns and use more words because male therapists are better at listening
than female therapists? And 2) when therapists speak less, does that mean that

clients speak more?

Table 25. Comparison of Client Words and Turns by Therapist Gender

 

Turns % Total Words % Total

 

Clients With Female Therapists 453 47% 9085 45%
Clients with Male Therapists 520 53% 11047 55%

 

71

A clearer picture of the male therapists in the study emerges by looking at other
aspects of the data. Male therapists used less feeling words and feeling
expressions than female therapists. Male therapists took more turns speaking
than female therapists, but their turns were shorter as they used less total words
per turn. A conclusion of this study is that male therapists took more turns
speaking but used fewer of those turns to discuss feelings than did female

therapists.

With a more complete picture of the context in which the therapists used FWIF E,
there is additional support for the finding that therapists, and particularly male
therapists, need additional training on speaking about and encouraging clients to
discuss their feelings. If these findings were replicated in other settings and with
other groups of health care professionals, the supervisors responsible for training
therapists would need to emphasize the discussion of feelings in therapy
sessions, helping supervisees to recognize and take advantage of opportunities

to assist the client in discussing their feelings.

More about male clients

Results in this study showed that male clients as a total group used 77% fewer

FWIFE than did female clients. Calculating he number of turns speaking and the

number of total words give that finding a larger context. In addition to using

72

fewer FWIF E, male clients in this study had 20% fewer turns speaking and spoke
59% fewer total words compared with female clients (see Table 26). Male clients

also had fewer words per turn than did female clients (see Table 27).

Table 26. Comparison of Client Total Turns Speaking and Total Words by

 

 

Gender
Turns % Total Words % Total
Turns Words
Male Clients with Female Therapists 219 22.5% 4024 20.0%
Male Clients with Male Therapists 225 23.0% 3752 18.6%
Sub-total Male Clients 443 45.5% 7776 38.6%

Female Clients with Female Therapists 234 24.0% 5061 25.1%

 

Female Clients with Male Therapists 295 30.4% 7295 36.2%
Sub-total Female Client 530 54.4% 12356 61.4%
Total Clients 973 20132

 

Table 27. Client Words Per Turn

 

 

Words/Turn
Male Clients With Female Therapists 18
Male Clients With Male Therapists 17
Female Clients With Female Therapists 22
Female Clients With Male Therapists 25

 

73

The data also demonstrate that male clients talked less than therapists of either
gender. Male clients had the fewest turns speaking and spoke fewer total words
compared with both male and female therapists (see Table 28). Male clients also
used the fewest words/turn or took shorter turns than the therapists (see table

29).

Table 28. Comparison of Total Turns speaking and Total Words by Group

 

Group Turns % Total Words % Total

 

Female Clients 530 35.7% 12356 38.2%

 

Therapists 51 3 34.5% 12239 37.8%
Male Clients 443 29.8% 7776 24.0%
Total 1486 32371

 

74

Table 29. Ranked Comparison of Words Per Turn

 

 

 

Group Words/Turn Rank
Male Clients With Male Therapists 17 1
Male Clients With Female Therapists 18 2
Male Therapists 21 3
Female Clients With Female Therapists 22 4
Female Clients With Male Therapists 25 5
Female Therapists 28 6
Total Male Client 18 1
Total Female Client 23 2
Total Therapist 24 3

 

By looking at additional comparisons in the data, a more complete picture of the
male clients as the least participative group in couples therapy sessions
emerges. If these findings about male clients were replicated in other studies,
the importance of the need for therapists to encourage and assist male clients to
increase their level of discussion, particularly discussion of feelings, in couples
therapy sessions would be clear. Therapist training could then be structured to

meet this need.

75

More about female clients

In this study, the female clients as a group took 3% more turns and used 2%
more words than therapists as a group did; female clients as a group also took
19% more turns and used 61% more words than did male clients as a group (see

Table 30).

Table 30. Comparison of Turns and Words by Group

 

Group Turns % Total Words % Total

 

Female Clients 529 35.6% 12356 38.2%
Therapists 513 34.5% 12239 37.8%
Male Clients 444 29.9% 7776 24.0%

 

Total 1486 32371

 

AS shown in Table 31, female clients in male therapist sessions were the most
talkative group in the study. They used more FWIF E than any other group. They
also took more turns speaking and used more words than male or female

therapists or male clients.

76

Table 31. Ranked Comparison of Feeling Words/Feelings Expression Use,

Turns Speaking and Words Used by Group

 

FWIFE Rank Turns Rank Words Rank

 

 

Male Clients with Male 8 1 225 2 3752 1
Therapists

Female Clients with Female 10 2 234 3 5061 3
Therapists

Male Clients with Female 14 3 219 1 4024 2
Therapists

Male Therapists 25 4 277 5 5731 4
Female Therapists 28 5 236 4 6508 5
Female Clients with Male 29 6 295 6 7295 6
Therapists

TOTAL 1 14 1486 32371

 

A comparison of female clients in male therapist sessions with female clients in
female therapist sessions reveals several intriguing findings. Female clients in
the male therapist sessions took 26% more turns and used 39% more words
than the female clients in female therapist sessions. And, as shown in Table 32,
female clients in the male therapist sessions also used FWIF E more frequently
(29) than the female clients in the sessions with female therapists (10). This

difference is statistically significant as shown in Table 33.

Table 32. Comparison of Female Client Total Turns and Total Words

 

FWIFE %Female Turns %Female Words %Female

 

 

FWIF E Turns Words
PC with MT 29 74.4% 295 55.8% 7295 59.0%
PC with FT 10 25.6% 234 44.2% 5061 41.0%
Total F C 39 529 12356

 

Table 33. t-Test for Significance of Female Client Use of FW/F E in Sessions with

Male Therapist vs. Sessions with Female Therapists

 

95% Confidence Interval
Mean Std. Error

 

 

FC Total . . .
FWIFE t df Sig Difference Difference Lower Upper
use 2.66 8 .029 3.80 1.43 .51 7.09

 

As shown in Table 32 above, female clients in male therapist sessions used
more FW/F E than their therapists. The data also demonstrate that female clients
in the male therapist sessions directed FW/F E to the male therapists more than
the male therapists directed FW/F E to them. Male therapists directed FW/F E to
their female clients 10 times. Female clients directed the FWIFE to the male
therapists 13 times or 30% more. Of the 29 times female clients used FW/F E, 7
were in response to a male therapist using a FWIF E. In the other 22 incidences,
the female clients directed FWIFE to the therapists 13 times and to their partners

9 times.

78

With a more complete picture of the female clients as a group in this study, it is
clear that the female clients were the most active group in the study. If these
findings were replicated in other studies, they would be an indication that
therapists, but especially male therapists, have to take steps to balance the
amount of discussion that occurs with male and female clients in couples therapy
sessions. Therapists may have to encourage and assist female clients to do
more listening to their male partners while talking less. Replications of these
findings would be important not only to those who structure training programs for
mental health professionals, but might also guide practicing health are

professionals.

More about the therapists and clients in relation to each other

Therapy session time is, of course, limited to about 50 minutes. The length of
turns speaking varied from one word to over 400 words. Two therapists in the
study (one male and one female) talked more than both their clients combined.
The longest turn taken by a male therapist (Case M3) was 457 words and is

shown belovm

Okay, I really want to pursue... Have you finish for me the stuff that

you first started when you came in and then I’ve got the Marital

Satisfaction Inventory which is going to take you about maybe a

79

half hour to finish. And I really want you to do that... So I can
start... Like I say, that’s the one measure that will tell you exactly
what areas you’re having the most difficulty. And I can chart for
you where you’re both at on things like trust and where you are in
different areas of the relationship. I can plot that for you. And then
we can monitor our progress and see which areas you’re both
going in opposite directions. If we work on some things and you
start coming down a little bit and maybe start going the same
direction. Okay? So you can do that next time if you want. If you’ll
come in like maybe a half hour early next Tuesday. And then I
want to get some information from you about your families so we
can work on this... This is called a genogram, by the way. This is
the beginning of a genogram. A genogram is kind of a family tree.
You've probably each seen family trees before. A genogram’s
actually a biological... It’s a model if you’re tracing hereditary traits
and things like that in a family. But we use it a little bit differently. I
want to be able to plot out both of your families and look for areas
where maybe the ways that you feel and the ways that you think
actually didn’t start with just you. It probably came up here
somewhere or with your parents or your grandparents or
somewhere in your family of origin. Okay? And because you, F C,
just didn’t decide one day that you were going to be a pretty

organized person when it comes to moving. You just didn’t decide

80

that. That probably came somewhere from your family and, like
you said, you’ve got this ethic from your family that you work first
and play later. So that’s important to keep track of. And I’m sure
MC has some things up here from his family we could talk about.
So when we put these things on the table like work first and play
later and if MC has something from his family that is totally the
opposite, play first and work later, then we need to work around
that thing. We need to start discussing that. How we put that idea
of his family in with your idea of your family, and come to some
agreement so you guys can get on with your lives with how you

work and play. Okay?

It is interesting to note that twice during this long turn the therapist asks,
rhetorically, if something is “okay?” (see yellow highlights above) but then does
not pause for a response from the clients. Additional detail from the data reveals

more about this male therapist:

c He had highest number of total words of the 10 therapists in the study.
0 He averaged 4 words for every 1 word the clients (combined) spoke.
a The male client in this session had the lowest number of words and the

lowest number of turns speaking of any male client in the study.

81

o The female client in this session had the lowest number of words of any
female client in the study. The female client had the second-to-the-lowest

number of turns speaking of any female in the study.

There is a similar finding among the female therapists. The therapist in Case F4
had the longest turn of the female therapists, and the second (to the above)

longest turn in the study. The turn was 329 words and is Shown belovw

Yup. Absolutely. That’s their job. This is the Family of Origin
Scale. We’ve talked about your families in here. And, the way
this... These are your scores. And FC, yours are highlighted in the
yellow and MC, yours are highlighted in the blue. And what I look
at here is how they line up. Because the areas where there is
greater space, those are the areas that your families of kind of
further apart. But your families were fairty similar in "Clarity of
Expression," and ”Responsibility," and "Respect For Others.” But
there’s a big discrepancy here in "Conflict Resolution." And that
kind of shows up in the communication style that the two of you
have. And that's probably an area that needs attention. But it’s not
like you’re way up here on that. You’re still in the moderate range
which indicates that both your families were pretty functional. In
fact, you’re up above... In the high functioning area. Let’s see.

FC, you’re in "Separation and Loss," and MC, "Mood and Tone,"

yours is above the high range. Generally people that score
consistently high are people that really know how to work these
tests. You know, they’ve been in therapy a long time and they kind
of know what the test is asking. And so whenever we see scores
that are way up in the 19-20 area, we always kind of wonder...
“Cause nobody’s that healthy. You know, so, you know that they’ve
had some therapeutic training or something. And typically people
that are down in this range don’t show up for therapy unless they
are court-mandated to. They are generally pretty dysfunctional and
mostly what we see in here are people who are in the average or
moderate range. For the most part handle things pretty well. So
what we look for in couples is your range discrepancy. And the two
of you are fairly similar. Your families of origin are fairly similar in

111031 areas.

This female therapist has a similar impact on the session:

0 She spoke 2.1 words for every word the clients (combined) spoke.

0 She had the second highest (second to the male therapist discussed
above) total words for a therapist (more than all therapists except the
above)

0 The male client in this session ranked 8th of 10 in total words; the female

client in this session ranked 9th of 10 in total words.

83

This finding appears unrelated to gender, but is germane because it has an
impact on clients’ ability to discuss feelings by limiting the time available to them.
This finding also represents another area in which supervisors of training

therapists must be vigilant.

Another finding in this study related to the use of time during the session is the
amount of discussion that occurred between the clients (without the therapist)
compared to the discussion occurring between the therapist and a client. There
were five cases in the study (3 of the female therapist cases and 2 of the male
therapist cases, highlighted in yellow below) in which the clients took as many or
more turns talking with each other than they did talking with the therapist. In
contrast, there were 2 cases (1 of the female therapist cases and 1 of the male
therapist cases, highlighted in blue below) in which the clients used very few

turns talking to each other (see Table 32).

Table 34. Comparison of CIient—to-Client and CIient—to—Therapist Turns Speaking

 

Male Therapist Cases M1 M2 M3 M4 M5 Total

 

Total Client to Client 42 12 4' ' 49 75 182

Total Client to Therapist 105 51 64 55 63 338

 

 

Female Therapist Cases F1 F2 .. F3 F4 F5 Total

 

Total Client to Therapist 36 65

Total Client to Client 103 L 1 ii 13 42 41 200
I
; 70 41 41 253

 

If the clients are talking more to each other, particularly if that discussion is the

same as they would have outside of the session, the limited time in the therapy

session is not being used productively. The following examples show couples

interacting without the therapist:

Example 1 - Male Therapist Case

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Yeah but supposedly you said before that’s why you’re
upset because I’m not listening to what you’re wanting me
to listen to in the past. And I’m not caring about your
feelings that you express to me at some point.

So why say it again and again and again and again?
Well, why sit there and live unhappy because I’m not
doing something you want me to do when I’m telling
you I don’t know what the hell it is. You’ve got to tell
me again. You just like a It’s gonna get you
nowhere every time you didn’t tell me. That would be
more frustrating for me than where I’m at. At least I
know I express to you all the time and you’re just not
willing to do it or something else is going on. But with

you I have no idea and

 

Example 1 - Male Therapist CaseI continued

 

Female Client,
confinued:

that drives me crazy. You know I’m willing to try to
make things better but you won’t tell me what it is that
you need. And I’ve asked you six million times. And

you won’t tell me.

 

Example 2 - Female Therapist Case

 

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:
Male Client:
Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

I was just wondering if you were going to invite her over or
not. You hadn’t talked to her all week. Pretty nice week so
far.

That’s not why. It’s nice because we make it nice.

Yeah but still... Yeah. That’s probably true. I thought it
was a pretty nice week.

What?

I thought it was a pretty nice week.

Yeah. It was.

Yeah, because we were together without any outside
interference.

So you still think that our relationship is going to be made or
broken because of (cousin’s name).

No, I didn’t say that.

That’s what you’re saying. You’re saying it’s only good if we

don’t talk to her.

Example 2 - Female Therapist CaseI continued

 

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

You’re over-reacting.

No, because I feel so very strongly about them, you know.
Well, you survived all week without having to see her.

I talked to her.

Yeah but it is still you didn’t hang around with her as much as
you did before.

So that doesn’t mean I didn’t want to see her.

Yeah. So. I was just saying I like the situation. You shouldn’t
be getting so up tight about everything. You know... I mean,
that’s my opinion. I thought it was nice. I didn’t say anything
else beyond that. It’s you that brought up the theme of
breaking us up.

You’re the one that said that.

I didn’t say that this time though, did I?

No, but that is what you think.

No. I didn’t. You can’t tell me what I think.

What did you say last time?

I said this time. What I’m talking about is what I said this time.
I said it was nice.

So your feelings have changed or what?

No. I didn’t say that either. You know. I just have to put it out

of my mind. Is what I did. I just didn’t have to think about it.

 

87

Example 3 - Female Therapist Case

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Well, do you understand that? You know what I’m saying. I
feel like I...

I feel like you don’t really care that we’re...

No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait.

That we’re spending a third of our money just to pay interest on
our debts.

No, MC, that’s a gross exaggeration, a gross exaggeration.
First of all, I’m feeling frustrated right now because I feel like I
have a legitimate... I feel it’s okay for me to react to you like,
“My god, you’re going to be gone every Saturday. And not
only Saturday, but Friday night you’re going to be needing to
go to bed early “cause you have to be there at 6:00.” This is an
impact on us. And I feel like you can allow me a reaction. I
had a 5-minute reaction to that. At the most. That’s it. I was

more like, “Ohhhh.”

 

Example 4 - Female Therapist Case

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

I guess I can prove that to you. When I say something to you
that doesn’t involve conflict or emotions or anything, a lot of
times you just don’t even answer me.

For instance?

Example 4 — Female Therapist Case, continued

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

At night when we’re watching TV if I’ll say something to you.
“Oh, I paid that bill today.” Or I whatever. You just don’t
answer me. The only times you really notice is when I get
mad, you know.

I think. You know, I understood what you said. But I think that
And again I’m adding and not answering you. It’s really
hard to do. But I was thinking of something else even though I
heard what she said. I was thinking of something else.

No, you’re deliberately blowing me off.

 

Example 5 - Male Therapist Case

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

I guess I don’t remember it. Because it’s hard for me to go to
bed when we’re still like that. I don’t remember that.

Didn’t you sleep on the couch or lay on the couch or...

No. I don’t remember that at all. Neither one of us has slept
on the couch in a long time.

No. You came back in. You just went out on the couch... You
didn’t...

Oh. I don’t remember.

Well then I’m confused. (Husband back off of his assertion.)

 

89

It is easy to imagine that these interactions mirror the way the couples talk with
each other outside the therapy session. As such, they do not represent
productive use of session time and instead furnish opportunities for therapist

intervention to break a pattern.

In contrast, the following are examples of therapists intervening in an argument

that was occurring in the session and using an aspect of it to teach or model a

new behavior to the clients.

Example 1 - Female Therapist Case

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment
Female Client: You’re the one that said that.
Male Client: I didn’t say that this time
though, did I?
Female Client: No, but that is what you think.
Male Client: No. Ididn’t. You can’t tell me
what I think.
Female Client: What did you say last time?
Male Client: I said this time. What I’m

talking about is what I said this
time. I said it was nice.
Female Client: So your feelings have changed

or what ?

Example 1 - Female Therapist CaseI continued

 

Speaker

Discussion Comment

 

Male Client:

Female Therapist:

Male Client:

No. I didn’t say that either.
You know. I just have to put it
out of my mind. Is what I did.
I just didn’t have to think about
it.
Yeah. What I think MC was Therapist intervenes to
saying was that he just didn’t break up a repetitive
have to think about it over the argument to rephrase
week. That he wasn’t what the male client has
reminded of anything. But I said so that the female
think what FC is getting at is client can hear it better.
that it’s still kind of a sensitive
area. Is that the week was
nice. Not because of
anything that her cousin did
or didn’t do but because of
the two of you...
Right. I thought it was nice
too because we were

together.

91

Example 1 - Female Therapist CaseI continued

 

Speaker

Discussion

Comment

 

Female Therapist:

Well, I think you’re both
making the same point. That
the reason that it worked well
was because the two of you
were doing things together
and doing things with the
family and that was going
well. Independently of
whatever else was going on,

that went well. I don't think

it's going to helpful to analyze

that too much. Just kind of let

it lay and appreciate it and

enjoy it.

Therapist continues to
draw attention to what the
couple is doing that

worked better

 

 

Example 2 - Female Therapist Case

 

Speaker

Discussion Comment

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Not only that, I... That you
don’t care, and that it’s too bad
for me. "Too bad for you, I am
not going to deal with your
issue and I’m going to have my
own way. Forget it." You
know. Give up. I don’t care.
Go to hell.

Well.

Do you understand how that
feels?

I don’t know. No. Not really.
It’d be like a child going...
That’s probably where our
conversations go. Because
we really are being focused
on what the other one’s

saying.

93

Example 2 — Female Therapist CaseI continued

 

Speaker Discussion Comment

 

Female Therapist: Wait a minute. You know that Therapist uses self-
is... When I think of that and disclosure to help the

when I think of when I’ve clients see the impact of

been in situations like that, it’s their pattern of
just very painful to keep going communicating

over and over and over again

Male Client: Shit yes when you only retain
2% of the part of the same
conversation

Female Client: I almost think we’ve become

accustomed of not really

listening to each other.

 

Example 3 - Female Therapgt Case

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment

 

Female Client: No, you’re deliberately
blowing me off.

Male Client: I’m not...

Example 3 — Female Therapist CaseI continued

 

Speaker Discussion Comment

 

Female Therapist: No, no. I think what he says Therapist stops repetitive
is very important. Because argument by helping
what he is saying... female client to

understand what male

client is saying.

Female Client: You’re watching TV. You’re Female client does not
not thinking of anything. listen.
Male Client: It doesn’t matter. I’m still

doing what... I’m still doing
something at the point. Okay,
I’m still...
Female Therapist: He’s taking responsibility for Therapist reiterates her
what he’s doing that stopping point about hearing the

him from listening to you. Did meaning of what the male

you hear him say that? client is saying
Female Client: He’s taking responsibility for Female client doesn’t
what he’s doing? understand.

95

Example 3 - Female Therapist Case, continued

 

Speaker Discussion

Comment

 

Female Therapist: Yeah. He’s already thinking
of something. You know, I
heard what she said but I’m
thinking about this other thing.
And boy, it’s a real tug-of-war.
What I’m hearing is that
people collecting evidence. I
have evidence. I’m going to
prove it to you that this is the

way it happens.

Therapist elaborates her
point again and then
begins to draw attention
to the pattern in the

couples’ argument.

 

Example 4 — Male Therapist Case

 

Speaker Discussion

Comment

 

Female Client: Uhhhl I don’t care what you

had. It doesn’t matter. You

used to be a pig.
Male Client: So I’ve changed.
Female Client: Right. Now I don’t consider

myself a pig. I consider myself
a victim of children.

Male Client: I just...

Example 4 - Male Therag'st CaseI continued

 

Speaker

Discussion

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

You hate the way the car is.

I look at the van as an
investment, not a vehicle.

Oh yeah, well you shouldn’t
look at it that way.

Because we had a negative
equity for years and years. We
didn’t know what it was like
to... We didn’t know what it
was like to make money on a
car. We only knew what it was
like to lose money on a car.
And when we bought the van, I
said let’s keep this van clean
because if we pay it off within 3
years... I thought it was going
to be but it was four. It was a
grand illusion. We’ll make a
profit on this car. So if we keep

it decent. .

97

Comment

Example 4 - Male Therapist CaseI continued

 

Speaker

Discussion Comment

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Male Therapist:

I know. But I’m not letting them
eat chocolate syrup and red
pop. Cheerios ain’t like that.
I’m not saying it can’t all be
cleaned. I just... Anyway...
Well I was just going to say it’s
interesting that a few minutes
ago when I asked about who
needed to be more tolerant.
Then you both thought of the
other one right away. I think
you did, or that’s what I saw.
So... And that’s the big
challenge in doing the
(inaudible) when you’re
stressed or angry it’s very easy
to get frustrated and so you
want to blame it on somebody.
It’s very hard to say, “What’s
my role in this? What can I do

to kind of change this whole

 

 

Speaker Discussion Comment
Male Therapist, pattern?” So that’s the Therapist intervenes to
conhnued:

challenge. But one thing you comment on the process of
guys are both doing well the interaction he is seeing
tonight and other times is that

you are taking responsibility.

You are speaking for yourself.

You’re saying, “I felt this way.”

And a whole lot of couples

have the hardest time with that.

You guys do it well.

 

Therapists in the study could have intervened in a manner similar to the above

three examples more frequently during the sessions to assist the clients in

improving their communicating or listening behaviors. This finding if replicated

informs the need for additional training and supervision.

Further examination of the data related to the use of FWIF E revealed that FWIFE

were directed by the clients to therapists 40 of the total 114 times or 35% of the

instances in which FWIFE were used in the study (see table 35). 22 were

directed by female clients to the therapists and 18 were directed by male clients

to therapists.

Table 35. Client Direction of FWIFE

 

Cases T——>MC T—)FC T—sC FC—sT MC—>T FC—)MC MC—>FC Total

 

 

FT 10 6 12 2 10 8 4 52
MT 10 10 5 20 8 9 O 62
Total 20 16 17 22 18 17 4 114
% Total 17% 14% 15% 19% 16% 15% 4%

 

Table 35 also shows that:

. FWIFE were directed from one client to the other client (with no therapist
involvement) 21 of 114 (18.4%) of the total times FWIFE were used.

. 17 of the 21 FW/F E (81%) directed by one client to the other were female
clients addressing male clients.

. Examination of the 21 FWIFE revealed no responses containing a FW/F E.
In other words, when one client directed a FWIFE to the other client in the
session, that action did not evoke discussion of feeling from the other

partner.

These findings reinforce previously mentioned findings that the therapists in this
study did not emphasize discussion of feelings in the couples therapy sessions.
The clients used FW/F E expressions to the therapist or to each other 61 times.

The therapists used FWIF E to the clients individually or to the couple 53 times or
15% less. Assuming a therapeutic orientation to encouraging discussion of

feelings, these findings represent opportunities when therapists could have

100

assisted couples to delve deeper into discussion of feelings and to attend to each

other’s discussion of feelings.

More about gender

When the data are sorted to look at gender regardless of position (client or

therapist) they reveal that females used 43% more FW/F E, took 6% more turns

speaking and used 40% more total words (see Table 36).

Table 36. Comparison of Female and Male Gender Totals

 

Female
F C FT Total % of MC MT Total Male % Total
Female Total Male of Total All

 

FW/F E 39 28 67 58.8% 22 25 47 41.2% 1 14
Turns 529 236 765 51 .5% 444 277 721 48.5% 1486
Words 12356 6508 18864 58.3% 7766 5731 1 3507 41 .7% 32571

 

In addition, female clients and female therapists averaged almost the same
number of words per turn (see Table 37). When female therapists and female
clients are combined, their words per turn are 32% higher than male therapist

and clients combined.

101

Table 37. Comparison of Words per Turn by Group

 

Group Words/Tum

 

Total Male Client 17.6

Total Male Therapist 20.7

Total Female Client 23.3
Total Therapist 23.9
All Male 18.7
All Female 24.7

 

The preponderance of female communication in general and communication
about feelings in particular found in this study echoes previous research

reviewed for this study.

Additional Limitations of the Study Using a Qualitative Approach

Because of the dearth of research on this topic, it was necessary for the
researcher to design criteria for feeling words and feeling expressions that would
be included in the quantification. That criteria can be found in Chapter III under

Conceptual and Operational Definitions.

Having closely studied the transcription of 20 minutes from 10 couples therapy

sessions, it seems that the criteria may have been too narrowly defined. There

102

were frequent examples in the data when it was clear that a client or, less
frequently, a therapist was trying to describe the way slhe felt, but either was not
clear what the feeling was or did not readily have the vocabulary or words to
describe it. An example for each case is shown below in which the word “feeling”
or some form if it is used or a feeling is described from each case that was not

counted because it did not fit the criteria:

 

Male Therapist Cases:

Case M1

Male Therapist: Sober up and you’ll feel better.

Male Client: You had guilt.

Female Client: No, but I made it better because I figured this way I would

stop everybody’s pain. I would stop hurting everybody.
Male Therapist: FC, I think you can get on a medication that will make you

feel as normal, I think as MC and I feel right now

 

 

Case M2

Female Client: And I just, you know, I need to be able to tell you howl
feel about what you’re doing with him when I see this or
whatever.

Male Client: You just said you feel very independent.

 

103

Case M3

 

 

Male Client: Because everything seems to make him mad.
Male Therapist: The barrier is made up of a lot of anger and all that stuff.
Case M4

 

Female Client:

But that comment really made me mad because it was
saying... You know I wake up anywhere from 3—5 times a

night with her every night since she’s been with us.

 

Male Client: But it doesn’t... She don’t feel like... It doesn’t seem like
she is... Since we’ve been married and stuff it doesn’t
seem like she’s... Standing over me like that, you know.

Case M5

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Male Therapist:

Do you see why? What made me angry.
And you’re like mad...
You’re saying, “I felt this way.” And a whole lot of couples

have the hardest time with that.

 

104

Female Therapist Cases

Case F1

 

Female Client:

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Client:

That’s when he tells me how he feels. I tell him that he’s
not feeling that way. He just don’t care.

I wonder how it would feel to you if, you know... The way
I feel is by what happens. But number one, immediately
you just shut up

The way I feel you don’t understand.

Do you understand how that feels?

 

Case F2

 

Male Client:

Female Client:

I express myself or my feelings when I need to but I don’t
go on and on.

And I feel like it’s on purpose. I swear!

 

Case F3

 

Female Client:

Female Therapist:

Male Client:

It makes me feel that he has a good time with me.

When you have the feeling that he’s depressed, what
happens?

And I don’t know if that’s how every parent feels with their
kid at that age or not. But we just feel like he’s still tired

SO...

 

105

Case F4

 

Male Client:

Female Client:

Female Therapist:

I feel, ummm, you know, just getting by without arguing is
a good step.

He’s definitely got an attitude, you know. Sullen all the
time and he’s... I mean not all the time, but there’s time
when he, you know, you can teel he doesn’t want to listen
to me anymore.

That neither of you feel that your families of origin were

extremely dysfunctional anyway.

 

Case F5

 

Female Client:

Male Client:

Female Therapist:

Male Client:

Just off the top of my head, I feel like MC doesn’t assert
himself a lot.

No, no. But it feels like its’ the sort of things that she
would have done.

Normal anger is being held down till it builds to a point of
intensity.

I feel like you push me over the edge...

 

Since part of a therapist’s role is to teach clients how to talk about their feelings,

and since clients often come to therapy with problems communicating, clients

often make somewhat awkward attempts to identify their feelings. Some of these

attempts to express a feeling may be appropriate to consider for inclusion. If

106

future studies of expression of feelings and emotion are undertaken, it may be

wise to broaden the criteria.

107

CHAPTER VI
SUMMARY AND EPILOGUE

This was an exploratory descriptive study of therapist gender differences in the

discussion of feelings in couples therapy sessions. The sample studied was

small and may not be generalized. The quantitative and qualitative data derived

in the study indicate the following:

The amount of discussion of feelings in this sample was low, averaging 1
instance for every 13 times one of the clients or the therapist in the
couples therapy session took a turn speaking. Although various methods
of therapy vary in their emphasis on and value for discussion of feelings,
these results seem extremely low. The low level of discussion of feelings

must be kept in mind when considering the following results.

Given the previous research in several social science areas indicating that
males are less inclined and perhaps less skilled at discussing feelings, this
study sought to determine if male therapists might also be so
characterized. As a group, female therapists in this study did discuss
feelings more than the male therapists did. This finding, however, is
complicated by relatively large variation among the female therapists. All
5 male therapists actually discussed feelings more than 3 female

therapists, making a conclusion from this data even more precarious.

108

When clients and therapists are grouped together by gender, the females
in this study were both more inclined to talk and to talk about feelings. In

this sense, this study agrees with previous research.

Male clients as a group were least likely both to talk and to talk about
feelings. As measured by total words, the male clients in female therapist
cases were more inclined to talk than those in sessions with male
therapists. The male clients used 75% more FWIFE in sessions with

female therapists than the male clients in sessions with male therapists.

Female clients were more talkative than male clients. Not only did female
clients as a group take 19% more turns speaking than male clients as a
group, they used 61% more words and 77% more FWIFE, all of which

means less time available male clients to speak.

The female clients in the male therapists’ cases were the most talkative
group. Female clients in sessions with male therapists took 26% more
turns Speaking, used 39% more words, and used 190% more FWIF E than

did female clients.

109

. Both the therapists and clients in this study devoted more of their interactions
to the opposite gender. This finding is intriguing. If replicated, it has many

implications for both practicing therapists and those who train therapists.

The findings in this exploratory study indicate the need for further research to
determine if these findings are consistent in other settings with other therapists.
If replicated, these findings have important implications for the design of training
programs for therapists and would guide the supervisors of training therapists.
The findings may also have implications for practicing therapists. The low level
of discussion of feelings in this study, regardless of gender of therapist, is
dismaying if you assume, as this researcher does, the need for successful
therapy to include accessing and expressing feelings in order to understand and

manage the impact of those feelings on relationships with others.

110

APPENDICES

111

APPENDIX A

Pre-Test Document

112

#45 behemwwww wwwwNNNNNNNNNN-b-l—l—t-l—t-l—l—l—h

 

Ere-test - Researcher

 

19%
FT: Last week , (MC), when we did this, one of the goals that I had for

FT:

(F C) was that she felt you knew what it was like for her when this
occurred. Whatever event it was we were talking about last week.
So I am wondering, do you feel as if she knows what it’s like for you
when this happens now after talking with her?

No.
No? Why is... why is that?

I don’t think she could just totally black out what that is -- I guess a
defense she probably learned when she was a young kid. But she
can’t do it now because it’s something she never did before since
then. She blacked out her whole childhood.

So I’m wondering what you can say to her to help her understand
what it is like to be you when this happens.

Iwish I knew what to say. Idon’t remember specific incidents. You
know, If you could ask about certain incidents in the past, originally.

With (FC)? With when you were little, or...

Pretty much.

Did you say in the past?

In the past. In general...

Ever?

Ya. I remember a couple of ‘em and that’s where I totally lost
control. I’m yelling. She’d see me angry probably twice and that’s
not usually at home that I’d get angry like that. I’d just stay calm.
She’d think I’m ignoring everything in the world, but I’m just staying
calm.

Okay so you have this -- (FC) comes at you. You have this reaction

that you make a decision, based on that reaction, to ignore or not to
ignore. And that reaction that you have, those feelings that you have

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MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

are familiar. Because that’s what happened in the past. Correct?
Okay. So when you said you can’t remember the different
incidences like whether you were...

What caused them.

Right.

Right.

Right. What she was talking about or events surrounding them but
I’m wondering if you can tell me how the feelings with that reaction

are similar? What makes it the same as the others?

The tone of voice, the general attitude, the person who’s doing it,
wrath occasionally. The loud tone of voice, I think.

Okay. What, how would you describe that tone of voice.
Angry or upset.

Okay, so this angry and upset tone of voice triggers a reaction in
you. And that reaction is a familiar feeling. Been there before. What
about that is familiar.

That’s whenever I usually shut down like that. That’s all of it.

I guess I’m seeing a missing piece. And I'm just, you know, wanting
you to clarify it for me... and maybe you can correct me if I am
wrong. What I’m seeing is here’s this angry tone of voice that comes
at me. And something happens -- I make a choice in my head. And
my reaction to what happens inside of me is shut down. What just
happened inside of me? Why did I choose that?

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Tape #2

MT:
FC:
MC:
FC:
MC:
FC:
MC:
F C:
MT:
MC:
MT:

MC:

MC:
MT:
FC:
MT:
FC:

MT:

Why was Sunday good?

What was Sunday?

We hosted my family. It was good, wasn’t it?

Yes, because I was doing what you want me to. They didn't like it.
What didn’t?

They didn’t want to be there. They didn’t want to be at our house.
That’s not true. She thinks they didn’t want to come over.

They left so quickly.

Well why did it work well between you guys?

We didn’t argue. We didn’t fight Everything was preplanned.

You didn’t argue and fight today. You just had a couple
:iitszggfeements until you got here to argue. So you did Sunday just

We knew about it in advance. They came for an hour and a half.

Well what about you guys? Because you knew in advance, was that
helpful? Did you talk about what you would do?

What did happen?

Yeah. Did you disagree about this? Whose guests were they?
They were MC’s guests.

And so did he take charge?

Even as I was cooking... We had them for brunch so I prepared the
food and the table and everything.

And then, you sort of survived things...

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FC:

MT:
FC:
MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

MT:
MC:

MT

FC:
MT:

No I guess whatever we had planned in advance... You know it’s ,a
meal I often make -- french toast with a fruit salad or whatever. 'You
know, and coffee and juice. And there was nothing like that I didn’t
offer that I should have I guess. Or it wasn’t like he had a thought all
of a sudden we have this let’s offer them. He didn’t offer them his
mother’s cookies.

Did that spark some argument?

What if I had offered them you mom’s cookies.

I wouldn’t say a word, you know, definitely not when they’re present.
Maybe until we go out for a big fight

You’d be very upset then.

I’d be very upset because I’m not eating them myself. My mom
made them for me. 1’m not eating themfor me -—-1’m not eating
them, you know, for us. But only for her friends to try some.

They’re very....

You know they’re delicious. They are all delicious you must admit.
Everyone who has them says they’re heavenly.

I’m sure that they are.

He says that very cynically.

I’m not cynical... I’m just... I just can’t stop thinking about this whole
process that you guys go through because I know you do it well a lot
of times and I’m trying to figure out...

How we manage to do something without fighting?

No, no I know you manage do that. I’m just trying to figure out what
purpose you guys get out of fighting over small things.

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Tag #3

MC:

FT:

MC:
FC:
MC:
FC:
MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

I’ve gotten it out. So it’s out. It’s like I don't think about it anymore. I
don’t worry about it. I don’t know. I just got it out.

Wow!

I was pretty calm this weekend, wasn’t I?

Yes.

I thought I felt calm.

Ya.

Um it’s um like that always. I also, I feel like I don't have anything
else to say now. I got it out. So I’m totally relaxed. Especially since
I did.

What has been occupying your thoughts, then?

Well it’s taken a long time but I’m understanding that you have to be
patient. And, just take this area — I can understand -- it’s hard to
grasp that amount. After going through the hell that we went
through, it just takes time to rebuild the relationship and get it back
on solid footing. To rebuild the trust and the faith, and you know, it’s
just going to take time. I can see where... Go back and see more
cleany where we’re progressing. It’s like that.

There’s a more solid foundation that way?

I feel more comfortable with it. I guess I can understand I’m really

bonng.

FC:

MC:

FC:
MC:
FC:

Ya.

And I’m really boring. It took a long time to see. The value of it and
that it will take time to see the progressions. I now understand. It’s
easier to understand the feelings.

It’s easier to understand my feelings?

Ya. It’s easier for me to understand...

Ya

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MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:
FC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

That, um, just because something’s not going my way or the way I
expect it, it doesn’t mean it is going wrong or going bad.

Ya.

Okay it’s another option there I’m starting to see.
Wonderful.

(Laughing)

For real.

You like that. May I ask what helped enlighten you? What do you
think it was that triggered the understanding?

Part of it comes from, you know, about six months of talking to
people who were trying to hammer this into me.

And we finally hit you hard enough that...

And, um, FC’s been, especially since, especially since last Thursday,
but also I could see it over the past several weeks where she’s been
building up to this. Where, urn, FC feels more comfortable with me.
And as FC said in the very beginning, as I hold back, she has the
tendency to follow. And um, so she feels... she’s been more... um...
she’s been a little more touching and caring and that’s been real
comfortable, you know for me. Makes me feel real good. It's like I
can look, I can see, I can see how the little steps are helping to just
to build relationship. You know I couldn’t see that before.
Understand what was going on at the time behind what I was maybe
seeing or hearing. The graphic that was going on behind it. I had
too many assumptions about her feelings that l was thinking things
about it. Several discoveries in my own mind.

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Tag #4

MC:

FC:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MC:
FC:

MT:
FC:
MC:
FC:

Ya, you should have told me and reminded me about it and I would
have said okay, let’s plan Labor Day weekend. Let’s ah get Chuck
and the kids and everything and get that group campsite again and
everything and we’ll go. I mean I would like to go too. It’s not
something I don’t want to do. You know...

(Mumbles something.)
What was that?

I said we can’t do everything. We’re moving one weekend. Then the
weekend after we move classes start. And the week after that is
Labor Day. Then the weekend after that he’s taking a week off of
classes to go to Tennessee. So, you know, you can’t do it all.

Yeah. As you talk about it you give the impression... You said it in a
way that it’s all about Eric and I’m wondering what it felt like to you.

Well, all summer long he’s been extremely busy. Your children have
been acting out The program’s done and instead of spending time
with his children — which they don’t see him a lot and spending time
with me, he’s going away with his friends. It’s just getting back to the
old mentality that they used to have where everything focused on
MC. MC’s career. MC’s schooling. MC’S time. Because he had
been being really good about family and chores and everything, but
the summer got screwed up with a project and that took awhile, and
he’s off with friends.

I don’t understand why this one thing means I’m not trying.

It’s not that. It’s just it’s taking up the time that would have been
Spent as our family trip and now our family trip is not going to
happen.

I was wondering where do you feel like that leaves you?

Well I just feel...

She feels it leaves her at home with the kids with me away.

Yah I just feel like as the summer culminated, then the break. In the
end it’s for him because his summer was stressful.

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MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FT:

MC:

What's that like?

It’s just a little frustrating. Because I went okay well, yes, he has had
a hard summer, but so did I have a hard summer. You know it just...
it feels like him -- his importance takes over again as opposed to
mutual enjoyment.

And his importance takes over -— what does that mean?
It just means that I’m just stuck with the kids.

His importance takes over and as far as who you are in the
relationship and who you are as a person...

I’m number two. You know it’s not we’re here and the kids are here, .
it’s MC, then FC, and then the kids.

A one-down position.

That’s why when we found out about the trip I was very excited
because it would just be us together. No children, no family, nothing.
Just us together. And I was very excited about that and l was
excited that it was a cruise because everything was right there. I
didn’t have to drive from a hotel to a restaurant to go out. Nothing.
Because it was just all right there. And he was just like, “Yah,
okay”... It was like no excitement. No anything. Just the fact that
we were going to spend time together. Nothing.

And when you don’t see the excitement. When you don’t see it or
hear it in his voice, does that play into this feeling that I’m number
two, no excitement?

Well yeah, it seems like number 10 was his hiking trip and this was
just like a 5. You know, like, “okay cool.” Like, “Great. Glad you’re
going with me.” You know.

So it kind of where you’re at on his scale of importance.

Yah. Kind of ruins the excitement of going on vacation and the other
person is just like whatever, not happy, not excited or anything.

It’s not that I’m not happy or excited. It’s just... I mean you can kind
of... that’s the thing. You have to try to understand my position. Like
I’m trying to explain to you. It’s like you know that I’m really into the
backpacking, stuff like that. Going on these hiking trips, right. That’s
something that I know. That’s something that I can get excited about

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FC:
MC:

very easily because I know it. I’ve done it. It’s with people that I
don’t ever even see. That I haven’t even seen more than like 5 days
in the last 5 years.

But that was their fault because they won’t come up or anything.

That’s not what I’m talking about. That’s why I’m saying this.
Because it’s like that. But on cruises —- that’s not, you know,
something that I don’t know anything about, or anything like that. It’s
not that I mean that I’m not excited. It’s just that I don’t have that
same level of connection with that.

121

APPENDIX B

List of Feeling Words/Feeling Expressions Counted in Study

122

LIST OF FEELING WORDSIFEELING EXPRESSIONS COUNTED IN STUDY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Case F1

F0 I feel like you’re saying, “Shut up. Too bad. It’s your problem.” That’s how
I feel

FT I feel

PC I feel like you might as well say the words out of your mouth. Shut up. I
don’t care. It’s your problem. You’re alone. That’s how it feels when you
shut down or you just don’t even answer me

FT Would that feel better for him to say that to you

Case F2

I FT I I could tell, FC, that you were very upset

Case F3

FT Mentioned you’re feelirLg secure

FC It makes me feel, ummm... It makes me feel secure

MC Well then I’m confused

FT Feel more comfortable

FT I’m a little bit concerned

FT It feels different to you

MC Right. It’s a feeling

FT And how do you know he’s depressed? What gives you that feeling that
he’s depressed

FT How does that make you feel to know that she thinks you’re a lot more fun
to be with

MC That makes me feel good

MC Personally I’ve been very frustrated

MC I’ve been feeling pretty good about us

MC That’s a little stressful for me

MC I get frustrated

FT Feelipgblamed and they’re feeling on the defensive

FT Feelim like they have to protect themselves

FT How I feel; This is how I feel; I feel angry

FT And I feel hurt

FT You feel insecure; May never feel

FT You feel heard; You feel each other is hearigg your needs and concerns

FT It’s a better feeling You’re feeling better

FT However it feels good to you to do it

Case F4

F C I feel so very stronglyabout them

F C So your feeligqs have changed or what

 

 

123

 

 

 

Case F5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FT May have felt that nobody was really terribly concerned about his position

MC I never really felt close to people or attached to anybody, so...

MC I have the feeling it’s already too late. I’ve already missed out on too
much, so I’m going to have to make up for it

MC I kind of feel like if I have to work Saturdays that’s not really my choice, for
one thing

FT But will it relieve you? It will be rewarding to yo for the sense that there’s
less stress on you of having these debts

PC I feel like I...

FC I’m feelipg frustrated right now because I feel like I have afigitimate...

FT So in other words, you would like for him to express some empathy for
those feelings you're having

MC I feel like I’m going to get the blame for it though whereas I feel the same
feelings

PC I have a little frustration with this

PC I’m happy for you

FT I sense from what you expressed in your feelings about your relationship is
that you want some control back in your life. You feel as though maybe
you’ve given too much of it over. And maybe you didn’t see yourself as
having a major part in giving that control over. But now you want more
input into decision making

FT How would you respond to that

MC And I feel like it’s just... It’s not the point it comes to. It comes to the point
of well, who’s in power here. And I feel like I’m not beipg listened to

FT So it affects you more on an emotional level

FT Whereas F C can deal more with issues and get her anger out there and
leave it and it doesn’t continue to...

MC I feel like I’mjust... Where I feel I am being reasonable

FT So it evokes some of the...

FT Okay, so it brings up some of the sensitivities that you have to not feeling
valued as a person. And that comes across in the conflict

MC Lget angry

FC I feel that...

FT I care

FT That you do care, that you do value each other

Case M1

FC I’m tired of it

FC I’m angry

MT Tell me how you felt

MT Okay but how did it make you feel

MC It made me feel like shit

FC That’s the ways I was feeling

F C A little guilt too; there was guilt; a lot of guilt built up

 

 

124

 

 

IL ..I LILH - E IAIIKIINKIEI N ......L

( FWKIMFILHIIIILIIIILIIIIL

Case M1, continued

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FC Nobody loves me; Nobody cares; They do love me; They do care

FC I’m pissed at him

FC I feel comfortable with you

MT How are you feeling now

FC It terrifies me to think that l was like that

FC I’m being caused pain

MT You feel like

PC I feel comfortable with you. I do feel comfortable

Case M2

FC I’Lget angry; I’ll usually get angry

FC Do you feel like you have any independence from me

FC I feel completely independent

FC I feel independent

MT What's, what’s the emotion that need to have met

FC Probably either hurt or anger or something

MT What’s the need that you have that causes you to get upset? That's not
being met

MT Are there times when you feel safe

Case M3

MC I’m terribly frustrated

MC I'm very tired of it

MT How do you feel? You don’t feel things are blear? Or do you feel the
same way

MT You feel safe; does that seem like it hits home for your view

FC I’m upset

MT You’re feeling that there is just, between the two of you, there’s so much
anger that you’re not to a point where solution is; A0901; Angfl He feels

MT I’m wondering if I were to chart how you feel about your relationship; Your
feelings are pretty low

MT How about you

F C I don’t care

FC Do you feel that

Case M4

MC Lgot resentful

MT So you had an attack of guilt. On of those gilt trips

FC I was really ticked. l was really ticked

MT So you’re both pissed off at each other... Upset. You were throwing your
left-hand curved ball and you’re coming back with anger.

FC I felt that that was a veryunfair comment

FC l was jealous

 

 

125

 

 

 

 

Case M4, continued

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MT You mean there’s more comfort in the relationship

MC Trust. More trust

MT And it’s difficult for you

MT So when you’re feeling happy and he’s feeling down... I’m wondering
what that would be like

MT I’m wondering if her mood affects you

MT You just want to be in a bad mood

MC I’m down

FC I’m kind of tired of hearing it

MT What’igxiingg for you, MC, right now

MT What’s that like for you? Record the emotion. What’s the word for it

FC I would feel real insignificant or feel like really nervous about my abilities or
somethigg

MT He’s feelingdown. You’re feeling down. Being down

Case M5

FC I was mad

FC I’m just like cooked

MC I’m even more tired. I’m tired. I’m tired

MC I’m feeling_good

MT You got mad because he was mad

FC I didn’t get mad

FC I’m tired. Tired.

MT So you feel kind of fried after having the kids all evening

PC I feel very fried some nights

 

 

126

 

APPENDIX C

Transcription of Cases

127

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC-FemeIeCIienLFT-FemaIeTherapist,MC-MaIeCIient

FC: That’swhenhetellsmehowhefeels, Itellhimthathe’snotfeelingthatway. Hejust don’t
care.

FT: Askhimifthat’s... Didlgetallofit?

FC: Didlgetallofit?

MC:Yep. AtsomepointJdon’twanttocommunimte. Andlalreadyknonwherethe
conversation’sgoing.

FC: That. lagree with that.

PI”: Whatdidyouhearmesay. Askherwhatsheheard.

FC: At some point you don't want to communicate...

MC:Doyou understand?

FT: Yes. Whatdidyouhearmesay?

MC:Whatdidyouhearmesay?

FC: Thatatthat pointwhenlsayyou reallydon’tfeelthatwayandyoujustdon’tsare. Then
you’re done talking. You don’t want to talk anymore. You shut down.

FI': Didlgetitall?

FC: Didlgetitall?

MC: Yep.

FC: Mypointexactly. Ifldon’tagreewithyou,thenyoudon’twanttotalkaboutitbeeausewe
don’tagree. Youalwaysgetyourownwayregardlees.

MC:Iunderstand you. Iunderstandwhatyou’re saying.

FT: VWTatdidyouhearhersay?

szmathamn’sanagumeretweenusbewseslehashaopinbnaMIhave
mine. Andthere’snohappyrneeting point. Andthat’sbasicallywhatshesaid. That...

FT: Didlgetitall?

MC:DidIgetitaII?

FC: Iguess, you know... Iguessthat’sit. I... You know... Whenyousaythingsbacklguess
itjustsoundssodifferent.

FT: Whaareyouhearing. That’simportant.

MC: Yedt.

FT: That’simportant. Whatareyouhearinghimsay. Hemaynotbesayingthesarnething
thatyou’lesaying.

FC: Yeah. Itwasin differentwordsandlguessldon’tthinkithas... Idon’tknowifithasthe
sarnemeaningornot. Themeaning is immediately you knowwhetherlagreeordisagree
withyou. NIdifIdisagreewithyothenyoushutnghtdombewuseyoudon’tmrflto
talkaboutit. Because you knowthere’s going to have tobesomemediation there. And
that’snotgonnahappen. Andthat’swhenlcomebackwith,“Youdon’twe.”

MC: Now, what makes your decision? Or what is your argument over doing it the way that I talk
toyouaboutit? Didyouget 'rtaII?

FC: What... Yeah.

FT: You want to knoafl

FC: YouwarfltoknoerafsmyargumeMoverhavingflIearenamflieotherside?

MG Yeah.

FT: You’re adring her to be the speaker now.

MC: Yeah.

128

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: Myargumentisthatifitendsonthenorthhandsideoflhemad... Numberoneit’snotin
themiddieofthehayfield. Whichisthat’sprettysrnallanyway. Soittakesoffpartofthe
hayfield. Numbertwo...

Fl': Tryandkeepitshort.

FC: Thesecondreasoniswithitonthenorthside... Thenorthsidedipsdownandsopeople
drivingbywouldbelookingdownonit. Sotheycouldseeverywellthearenawhat’sgoing
onfrornboth directions. lfitwasonthesouthside,theycouldn’tseeitcomingfromthe
northbemusethehouseandallthetreesareinthewaymumberone. Andnumbertwo.
onthenorth—handsideitwouldhavetositbackfaranditwouldbeuphighandalotof
people would missitjust for that reason. And number three, Ithink it’s windier over there
andyouknowandthat’swherelwantedit. Didyougetthat?

MC: Yeah.

FT: Okaythen...

FC: Didyougetthat?

MC: Yep.

FT: Whatdidyouhearmesay?

FC: Whatdidyouhearmesay?

MC:Thatyouwantedittobeonthenorthsideit’sdounlowerandpeopleandseeitbetter.
Andonthe south side you said it's gonnabeinthemiddleofthehayfield which it’snot
gonna be, you know...

FT: That’sediting.

MC:Andthat you think it’swindieroverthereandpeople mn'tseeitaswell.

FT: Didlgetitall?

MC: Didlgetitall?

FC: Yeah. With peoplenotseeingaswell, they can... Thatwayeverybody goingbywould
seeitfrornboth directions allthetime. It’s very visible right there.

MC: Okay. Handit over here.

FI': Areyoudonewiththespeakerpilloufi

FC: Iguessso.

MC: Alright. Alright. Ifyouhadto compare... Apafiureiswhereyouputananimalintoandit

grazes,okay. Anditneedsxamountofroomtorunaround. Doyouagreethatthenorth

pasture is not very large. Do you understand?

You'reasking me...

: You’re addngmeifthenorth pasture is very large? Yeah. There’salotofpastureout

back.

:Northpaaure. Rightbesidethehouse.

:Ummmmm

You’reasking me...

: You're askingmeif thenorthpasture is very large.

:You...

No,it’snotneallarge.

:O.kay lgotit. Youdonothaveaconceptofsize.

:’..ldontbelleve.

MO: I don’t believeyou have a concept of size peryour telling methat you don’t understand
size.

FT: Whatdidyouhearmesay?

FC: You don’t think it'sasgood...

FT: Whatdidyouhearmesay?

8.391

35358966

129

MC:
FC:
MC:

FC:

MC
FC:
MC

FC:

FC:

MC:
: People an... I mean it's biological. It’s not anything... Some people have better

FC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

FC:

FC:

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

What did you hear me say?

You don’t think I have a good compt of size.

Yes. If you were to put an arena in there, the size of it would diminish your pasture. So
that wouldn’t be of use. And if you’re going to have other animals in that pasture, you don’t
take another animal into the same pasture and work it. Did you get what I said?

Umhmm. If you going to have an animal in that pasture. you don’t take another animals in
there and work “em.

:Because...

Didlgetitall?

:Yes. Alright. Andthesouthpasturel’mnotgoingtoputitintothecenterofthefield. I’m

going to put it on the side of the field. Okay. Your exposure isjust as much people
comingfrorntl'lenorthasitispeoplecomingfromthesorth. You haveasignoutthat
says “horse boarding.” You’ll have a fence out there. Hopefully we’ll have other horses
around there. At that point you’re going to get too much exposure. You’re going to have
more than you want. Alright. And you need a flat... She knows where I’m coming from.
No, I’ve already lost part of it.

: Alright. Okay.

You’ve explained a lot of things. I can’t...
That’s...

memories. And we have to practice in terms of memories. But in terms of listening,
especially when it’s emotional...

: There’s certain things too. If it’s numbers or reading, FC’s much more... She understands

it. Okay. If it’s thinking out a Situation like cutting a piece of timber or bailing hay —
mechanical things — that’s my expertise. Because that’s what I do every day. And I think
of those things.

: Okay. Soyou’resaying...
MC:

And marketing. I think of marketing stuff all the time.
I guess I canprovethattoyou. When I saysomethingtoyouthatdoesn’t involveconflict
or emotions or anything, a lot of times you just don’t even answer me.

: For instance?

At night when we’re watching TV if I'll say something to you. “Oh, I paid that bill today.”
Or I whatever. You just don’t answer me. The only times you really notice is Men I get
mad, you know.

I think. You know, I understood what you said. But I think that And again I’m adding
and not answering you. It’s really hard to do. But I was thinking of something else even
though I heard what she said. I was thinking of something else.

No, you’re deliberately blowing me off.

: What? Whatwasthepurpose...
MC:
: No, no. Ithinkwhathesaysisveryimportant. Becausewhatheissaying...
MC:

I’m not...

I’m telling the truth right now.
You’re watching TV. You're not thinking of anything.

: It doesn’t matter. I’m still doing Miat... I’m still doing something at the point. Okay, I’m

still...

: He’s taking responsibility for what he’s doing that stopping him from listening to you. Did

you hear him say that?
He’s taking responsibility for what he’s doing?

130

FC:

FC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:
FT:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FC:

MC:

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

Yeah. He’s already thinking of something. You know, I heard what she said but I'm
thinking about this other thing. And boy, it’s a real tug-of-war. What I’m hearing is that
people collecting evidence. I have evidence. I'm going to prove it to you that this is the
way it happens.

That’s not as important...

And communication's out the window. Think of it this way. If I say to you...

Well I wonder how it would feel to you if, you know... The way I feel is by what happens.
By number one, immediately you just shut up. You refuse to communicate about it so...
Okay so, even if you don’t say it, I feel like you're saying, “Shut up. Too bad. It's your
problem." That‘s howl feel.

What did you hear her say?

What did you hear me say?

That was a very good statement. Very good. In terms of owning it.

:Thathowdoyou... Howyou... Howyou feel whenyousaysomething tomeand I don't

respond or act as if I don’t quite hear what you're saying or I don’t care. Is that about what
you said.

: Yeah. The part about what happens. But how do I... The way I feel you don't understand.

When you shut down or you don’t answer me...

: I feel...
: I feel like you might as well say the words out of your mouth. Shut up. ldon't care. It's

your problem. You‘re alone. That’s how it feels when you shut down or you just don‘t even
answer me.

:Whatdidyou hearmesay?
:Whatdidyou hearmesay?
MC:

That you feel that when I don't ansvier you, it makes you feel like... That I don’t care when
I’m shutting down, I guess. I don’t respond.

Not only that, I... That you don’t care, and that it’s too bad for me. "Too bad for you, I am
not going to deal with your issue and I'm going to have my own way. Forget it." You know.
Give up. I don’t care. Go to hell.

Well.

Do you understand how that feels?

I don't know. No. Not really.

It’d be like a child going...

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Before you try and convince him, he says he doesn't
understand how that feels and...

You know, maybe I should do that to you. Maybe then you'd understand.

I don't know. I’m really having a hard time right now listening now. I guess. I don’t know.
I'm just telling you.

Well I’m gonna feel that way. I... I understand some of it. It's really funny. You’re sitting
there saying something and I catch on just a little.

That’s probably where our conversations go. Because we really are being focused on what
the other one's saying.

Wait a minute. You know that is... When I think of that and when I think of when I’ve
been in situations like that, it’s just very painful to keep going over and over and over again

Shit yes when you only retain 2% of the part of the same conversation

I almost think we've become accustomed of not really listening to each other.
Yeah. I agree. ‘Cause...

131

TI
0

TI
0

easesaaeaaey

52":

85955?

FC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

FC:

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

: Because other people... Where there’s no emotion. Where there’s no nothing. They can

talktomeforanhourandIcanprobablytellyouprettymucheverythingtheysay.

:Firstofallweneedto havesomecommunicationwiththekidstofindoutMtatisgoingon
with them.
Okay.
:Weneedtofindoutwhattheproblem is.
Okay. What is she asking right there?
: To have some communication with the kids to find out what’s going on.
:Butheknowsithopeless,just Iikeme. ‘Causethey’ll shut upand notsayaword.
: No...
' That’s why we never work out anything. He’s...
: Okay. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. I disagree.
Okay.
:So many times I've tried... Yeah I know, you’ve got to go...
We’ve got just a few more minutes.
: I’ve tried practicing what FI' and stuff has taught us and I’ve said, you know, let them talk,

and stuff. You know and... And sometimes you disagree because you’re upset too over
that. Over the issue.

: Idisagreewithwhat?
:Withtryingto... Tryingto... Youwantananswer... Youwantthekidstoanswer

immediately what you’re asking too. And sometimes you’re talking right over top of what
they‘re trying to say. And that’s why (male child's name) won’t communicate with you.
And you’re talking for (male child’s name).

: This is a two-way copy. (Male child’s name) and I both talking.

That’s because you and I both knowvmat he’s buffaloing...
Wait a minute. There’s a difference between you saying...

: This is what (Male child’s name) told me.
: You're automatically agreeing with (male child’s name) and that's what I do period. Not

that, you know, by the way, (male child’s name) has told me that he feels this way
because

: Would that feel better for him to say that to you?

Yes. Because I would believe what (male child’s name) says. Not hm MC perceives what
(male child’s name)’s saying to MC.

: That’s what (male child’s name) was talking about.

I should beableto makemyowndecisionsbywhat hesaystoyou.
That's what (Me child’s name) said to me.
By this time you’ve made the decision and you’re putting the verdict on me.

:Dothetwoofyousee howpouerfulwordsare?
MC:
: There’s quite a few examples.

Definitely.

Wellwhat’smentioned... Youknow. Justaswesathereandlsayonethingandhehears
another... Well you takesomebodysaying somethingtosornebodyelse. Somebody
maldngtheirdecisionsandthentellingflteomerpersonMiatmeythink. Notexactlywhat
theotherperson said.

Ohyeah. Didyoueverplaythatgamewhereyou...

: Yes. Soyou mightnoteven reallyberight. Andifyou... Andevenifyouarerightor

wrong, it still may not help (male child’s name) because it still may not be the real... What
(male child’s name) is getting at.

132

 

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

MC: Sohowareyougoingtoflnditout?

FC:

Well I guess (male child’s name) and I would have to talk to it. But see, I don’t even
realize it. Because you've already made your judgement to tell me what you think, not
what (male child’s name) said.

MC: That’s what (male child’s name) said.

FC:

Whatdidhesay?

MC: (Male child’s name) says that you’re too judgmental and you don’t ever believe what he is

FT:

FC:

FT:

FC:

FT:

FC:
MC:
FC:

FT:

MC:

FC:

8.3.13 31

.1153

FC:
FT:

MC:

trying to tell you.

So maybe the two, you and (male child’s name) should talk about this. Or maybe you
could go to (male child’s name) and see how.... If this is really howr...

The only problem with (male child’s name) is that he lies through his teeth all the time.

But it’s going to be real importantthatthetwoofyou get these skills down...

But howrwould we... I mean it’s like... I would have to spend probably 15 minutes thinking
about every sentence first to try to...

Andthat’sokay.

Changeitaround.

It‘s just short subjects. Like one... Like one little subject...

Iguess... You know... Whatweneedtofocusonishowwe feel. Notwrhatyou'vedone

to me. How you make me feel when you do this.

Like we could... Like through the issue of (female child’s name) and (male child’s name)...
We could talk about everything that (female child’s name) does or doesn’t do and how MC
has responded to it.

Right.

That’s not important.

: And we could talk about (male child’s name) and what he has done and howyou have

respondedto himand howMC hasrespondedtohimandvisaversa. All that’snotthe
issue. The real issue is I feel like our kids are not being treated fairly.

: Fairly. They’re not.
MC:

Alright.

How an we make sure that we are each treating both (female child’s name) and (male
child’s name) in a fair way. Because you know, one’s a parent biologically. The other one
is a step-parent. Pseudo-step—parent. So. ..

:That’snotevenwhylthinkhedoesit.

Well, for whatever reason.

: I think he does it because (female child’s name) is a girl and she could do... Commit

murder and it would be fine. (Male child’s name) is a boy and he needs to pay hell.
It could be a male/female thing. It could be values. It could be a lot of things.

: A lot of things.

But what are we going to do to try and make it fair. Should we make it fair? Do you
believe it should be fair between them? Do you feel like it should be fair between them? If
you both agreethal it should befairthen it should be pretty simple on coming upwith
something. Now if one person has a different belief. No I think it should be different
because of this and this and this. Because they’re male/female. Because one’s older and
one’s younger. Because one is more responsible and the other one isn’t. Whatever the
reasons are. Then we start understanding...

I think it’s very obvious that everybody in this world should be treated equal and fairly.
Different people... That is your belief, FC.

That isn’t the way it is.

133

CASE F1 TRANSCRIPTION

FT: Andthatisveryvery relevant.

FC: You don’t believe that, do you?

FT: Buttherearea Iotofpeoplewhodon't believethat.

MC: No.

FT: That you wouldn't give the same rights to one person...

MC: And I’m not talking just our kids either...

FC: No. No. I’m not talking... Rights! It depends on what you consider rights and what you
consider privileges or responsibilities.

FT: And that’s how...

F : Obviously you shouldn’t give a drunk the responsibility of running a corporation. Okay.

FT: And that’s kind of what we’re talking about...

MC: But that’s what the statement you said, so you were.

FC: No. No. I’m talking about treating people fairly and equally.

FT: Butthenyou needtogointoinwhatareasarewegoingtotreatttemfairlyand...

MC: Right. There’s a lot, you know you.

FC: Well, how about judgement and punishment and discipline.

FI': Andthcsearecn‘tical areas. Andseehmthatkeepsitveryspeciflcandveryfocused.
Tonight we’re just going to deal with responsibilities. Tonight we’re just going to deal with
leisure activities.

134

CASE F2 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: MC - Male Client, FC - Female Client, FT - Female Therapist

MC: No

FC: I would have like to have been but I don’t think that would have assisted.

MC:Thepersontheresaidthatthosetwoshould nevertalktoeach other.

FT: The person that was at this meeting?

MC: Yes. Right after, you know, what was discussed and so...

FT: What... I mean howdid itstartout ? Hasitalwaysbeendifticulttotalkwith her. Because
I wanted to... This was one of the things we discussed, you know. We were leading into
something I wanted to get a better handle on. I sensed that there you knowr... I was
sensing something uncomfortable but you started to avoid me and I couldn’t get a handle
on the interactions between the two of you. So can you give me a little bit... Help me
understand, you know, how it evolved or...

MC:IwasaIwaysthatway, I guecs. Shealwaysthought I shouldtalkalotrnorethan I did. I’m
just not that kind of person, I guecs. I don’t know. lexprecs myselfor my feelings when I
needtobut l don’tgoon and on, I guess. I don’t chit-chat, I guess. That’swhat I’mtrying
to say.

FC: He does too chitchat.

MC: I don’t have the problem with FC. Sol guess maybe it wasn’t all my fault.

FT: When you separated with the children, you attempted to... I mean with the divorce, was it
just really difficult to... It took the divorce decree to set up parameters or...

MC:WeII itwasjust kindofwenttothenorrnal situation, I guess. Whenshemovedout, I
would see them on the weekend.

FT: So it wasn’t spelled out officially that you wrould see them on mkends, she’d have them
during the week and then...

MC: No. I would have them every otterweekend.

FT: Right.

MC: I didn’t see them all that much.

FT: Oh. So initially it was you that had them every other weekend.

MC: Yah.

FT: Okay. Sowhenthatstartedtochange?

MC:Well, shedecidedshewasgoingto moveoutand l don'tknowwhalsheexpected meto
do. So I filed for divorce.

FI’: Sure. Uh huh.

MC: And reconciliation was out of the question. So I filed. And that surprised her. That I had
donethat. Soitevolvedandbecameacustodycaseandshehasthemafewmoredays
tten I do, but not a lot.

FT: Solnthedivorcecaseitsaysthatyouwill havejointcustody?

MC: Joint Iegd and joint physical.

FT: (lnaudible)

MC: Yes.

FT: And so nowthe outcome ofthis hearing... You said many things were talked about... Can
youtell rnea littlebitaboutwhatwastalked about?

MC: Well we talked about the medical problems that we discussed.

FT: Whatwastheresponseon herparttothat?

MC:WeIl shethought FCwasoveneactingandlwastryingtogetoutofthatbysaying people
aren’t the same. She may be more wnsitive than she is. That doesn’t mean she’s
overreacting.

135

mean

CASE F2 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: I guess I need to say something too. I intervened and those children were taking
medicine. Theywereillwithstrep. Andthelasttimeshedidcomeoverandshewas
coughing and she was ill and she didn’t have strep. That was the first instance she did not.
And I think I had every right. Because she would send the child with medication without
telling anyone. Then she would send her to school with medication which is not

FT: She’s infected, right?

FC: Bothofthern. Both ofthem.

FT: Both?

FC: Both. I mean so she not only really put those children in jeopardy by putting them and
thinking they’re adults and can do it on their own, but other children who have access or
could possibly haveaccesstothe lunch bucketand start... You know. You knovvhawkids
are. And not only that, but then her negligence of telling them that if they did have strep
shewould takethern. Notjustwhenlsaid they’vegotit, I’m sure, butshehadtakenthem m
andtheyhadhadstrepalso. AndnottellusandsendthemoverandtheyhadnotMnon
antibiotics for even 24 hours. You know, I mean I had every right. I’m sorry. I was not
overreacting. I was being practical.

FI': And you have a medical orientation, you know, to handle that.

FC: It’s a common sense orientation l’ m talking about.

Fr: ltbecomesverymuchtheexpectationthatthetwohousesaredifferentforthegids.

MC: It rs. Extremely. That rs true. I think they’ve adjusted pretty well.

FC: (Female child #1’ s name) hasn’t though.

MC: Well, I know she hasn’t. She has these stories. These honor stories about this or that
goings on or this or something happening to us or things that were said. But I think that’s. ..

You knowyou can hear or get feelings from children. And if it gets to be a habit. You
knowwhen she’s proddingthernforinformationwhether it’scorrectoraskmorequestions.
There’s a lot to play with. And (female child name)'s old enough that she's Ieamed that.

FC: She plays us.

MC: She plays us and it’s not... She’s a very bright girl. I think she... That’s a way for her to
get attention too. And when her mother...

FC: She knows it.

MC: She babies that girt way too much, you know, and...

FT: So that's something...

MC: Tantrurns are okay. Go ahead and...

FC: Oh man. I’ve never seen a 10 year old girl throw themselves because they couldn’t go
out. I mean it was storming. It was raining. She’s wranted to go out. I mean... Wanted to
down the street. Well, you know, personally I’m afraid of the storms. You can get struck
by lightening or, you know, it’s cold out and you can get a cold. She threw herself down
and threw a tantrum like I’ve ever seen in my life.

FI’: This wrasjust recently?

FC: This was when we first... I first moved in.

FT: Okay. Sothiswasaperiodwlenthereweretantrums.

FC: She’ll sulk. But she knows that that’s not acceptable behavior. If you have something to
sayoryou’vegotagoodmasonwhyyouwenttodowhatyouwanttodo. But ifit’sjust
notacceptableandshehastostayhome, thenshe’ll sulka lot.

ii

1%

CASE F2 TRANSCRIPTION

FT: Itsoundslike,youknow, thattherewasaperiodoftimewhenparentingwesagroupof
people. It was really just laissez faire. I mean they just let the kids do their own thing and
they will rear themselves, you know. And it’s sounds like that’s how your ex-wife is rearing
her kids. You know, they can potty train themselves when they get ready to and they can
throw temper tantrums if they would like to. You know, I nmn it's just sort of whatever
they do is behavior that is tolerated.

FC: Well, that’s kind of... That came out from (female child as name) saying that, you know.
“My mom said that’s okay.“ And the rationale behind it and it’s like... I told her, "I don’t
think so. Not here.”

FT: Iwonderhowyou respondedtothat.

FC: I just... Just what I said. I don’t think so. Not here. You know. No. That’s not amptable
here.

FT: Ummm

MC: (Female child 12’s name). I think that’s a real problem with... (Female child #1 name)
keeps telling me that...

FC: I think she’s... Well, lwrant to... I brought it. I’d say that except she... I get the
impression she slighted at home and that...

MC: Well, that’s the thing...

FC: And that (female child #1’s name) is way up here and (female child #2’s name) is way
down here.

FT: Well, this incident, you know. I could tell, FC, that you were very upset.

FC: Oh. Shemadernecry. Shemademecrywhenlheard her. Thegirl mademecry.

FT: Because she was upw.

FC: She was upset.

FT: Didthiscomeup, youknow, inthemeeting? You know, theneedsofthechildmntohave
the parents attending school functions?

MC: No. It didn’t... That didn’t come up.

FT: Okay. Iguessshewassototallyengrossed in herschoolthatshedidn’t haveanytimefor
the children. Is that what happened?

FC: (Female child #1’s name) is always on time. I don’t think... I’d say within the past year. I
kind of get the impression that (female child #2’3 name) doesn’t want to go. There are
times (female child #2’3 name)... Sometimes she just... She really doesn’t went to go.
Sometimes she’ll get excited. Sometimes she doesn’t. MC tries to... He was always
(inmdible). And sometimes I think he tries to manipulate their thoughts. I don’t really
care. I don’t want to hear it. I’ll say, “Did you have fun?” I won’t say, “What did you do?
What do you think?“

FT: So you ask more global questions?

FC: And that’s it.

FT: And they‘ve Ieamed not to volunteer a wrhole bunch?

MC: They do on their own sometimes, you know. They’ll say things.

FC: (Ex-husband’s name) just tries to be... You know, he does little things. I think he does.
To try to know what’s going on. It’s in his personality. And umm he did have an episode
wherehehad him convincedthathewesgoingtogeta$90090—cart Andguesswho’s
goingtopayforit. ltwesn’tgoingtobehimmditwrasgoingtobeus. Youknow,andl
hadtositdownandmlkto him. Anexplainabwtwortdngforthingsandworidngtoward
things. And I had to (inaudible).

FT: (lnaudible)

137

FC:

FT:
FC:

FT:

CASE F2 TRANSCRIPTION

Butthenhetries tousethatmanipulative thing Iikewithoutsaying, "Ask your mother."
Sornehowhehasawayofconvincinghimthatheisgonnadothat. SothenMenhe
comeshorneand it’s like they’re gonnadothis for me Andit’slike, ahhhh,ldon’t think so.
That'sanice thing to want to believe.

Yeah. That’skindofhowlhadtoput'rttohim. Andtrytogethimtoseetherealisticpart,
youknow. lflgaveyouhalf,youknow,wouldyouworkforhalfofit? lfyouwouldwork
forhalfofitlmighthelpyouormorethanthat. Imighthelpyouhelpatsornepoint.
Givethemproblemsolvingsolutionstorcachagoal.

MC: Thatwasaboutthetimewestartedtore—sidethehouse. Andhewasupset. Hewasin

FT:

tears. Andlwentuptotalkto him Itold himiflhadthemoney, Iwouldn’tjustgiveitto
him. Butlhadawayforhimtomakesomethingtmerdsthatifwantedto. Theirpartwas
asltookthesidingoffthehousetotakethebacldngoffsowecouldrecycleit. Andhe
couldhavewhatwegotfrornthat.

(lnaudible).

MC:Andthatsortofgothisfocusbacktowhereitshould be. Andhedidthat. Andnowhe’s

FT:
FC:

FT:

FC:
: That would be... I can understand howyou would feel that. Well, we’ve got just a little

FC:

Fr:

looking forotherwaysto make money.

What a nice summer thing.
Butitwasdifficultforustoworkthatwtafterhecamebackwithallofthatpropaganda,
you know.

So it sounds like both these Ex’s are leaving some dilemmas for you to have to work out.
And I just feel like it’s on purpose. I swear!

time and I wanted to take some time with the children. But I just wanted to take and show
you the results of...

:Iwanted you to havethistoobecausethatwrassomethingthatlhad...
:Thankyou. Okay. lsthatsomethingthatyou’dratherdonmvormaybewewndothis

nexttime? Doyouwanttogooverthesewhenlhavethechildmn’srewltsnexttime? Is
this something youwanttodonow?

: I don’t have to.

: I’ll keep that and I’ll bring it next time for you to tell me about. This, the couples, the
relationship...

: Oh no. Terrible aren’t we? You’re going to tell us how bad?

: You’re delightful. I mean I’m reading these and going. “Oh, how nice. This is such a nice

couple to work with.“ You both score very high on “Cohesion." Being together on things.
That was one or two standard deviations above the norm which is like only 2 or 3% of
people go higher than that.

:Ohso...

So it says that you support each other in the couple relationship. “Satisfaction.” You both
rated very high on satisfaction with the relationship. And you both identified some areas of
dissatisfaction. It’s amazing. You both are answering so similar I thought did they do this
together?

We did not.

I know you didn’t. You think very much alike' In a lot of areas.

MC:Ithinkitmighthelp. Maybeyoucouldshedsomeligl'rton... Asfaras(femalechild#1’s

name and female child #23 name)’ 3 situation. Bear in mind that I never prodded them for
information on their lives with their mother, analyzed their mother. I’m conwrned about
intruding on that. I don't want to do that.

138

FT:

CASE F2 TRANSCRIPTION

No, no. That’s very wise. You need to keep doing that. I think it’s malty important for
them right now that they have a totally separate person that they can relate to. If I would...
I would use... With the children it would be play therapy. And basically children talk
through toys and play much louder than they talk with words. I think it would be beneficial
toseetlem. l’mgoingtoknowmoreexactlywherethesituationiswhenwegetthe
teacher’s reports and I compare their reports with your reports. I do went to go over that
with you next week. I think... I do think I definitely went to see (female child #1's name)
tonight. You know just from what I’ve seen at this point and just thinking about your
concern that you’ve expressed. The other two also. I'm just not quite sure how to go
about... I don’t want to single one out or single another one out. I don't know howto
exactlygoaboutthis. Unlesswedid ita halfan hourwithtwoandtwo. Youalmcstneed
at least a halfan hour. Which child... Which onesdoyou want to come in, thetwo of
you?

MC: Well (femde child #1's name) obviously has the most problems because it becomes

FC:

attitude when she first comes back. She’s unbearable now. She’s anogant. It’s a drastic
change for her to have to accept coming to our house. Whether she’s resentful or
whatever. She has the worst problems.

: That's... Just let me reassure you. They have done multiple studies on step families. And

often24 hoursbeforethechild hastogototheotherfamily...

: It happens.

And24 hoursattertheygetback...

: Her frustration comes out.

Yes.

:Andwehavetocopewith it.

And this is why when there's switching it’s hard to stabilize it. I think there’s a couple other
things I want to go into with you. So maybe next week I will just... If next week the two of
you will just come again and then we’ll solidify and see... I’ll have those teacher’s reports.
And then after that we’ll break it up into the children. We will talk about parenting and that

wayyoucansupportmeinthetherepyroleandlcansupportyouintheparentingrole.
Oh.

MC: Oh okay.

FT:

FC:
FT:
FC:
FT:

lamgoingtobringthemuptoletthemseethatvideo. Igotitsetuphere. lpromised
them

Dowegettowatchthemordowehavetoleave?
You canwatch ifyou like.

They gm to watch us.
Remember how they were acting?

FC: Terrible.

FT:

They were just making funny faces in front. If you’d like to go downstairs and just tell them
to come up here, I’ll... Thank you.

139

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FT - Female Therapist, FC - Female Client, MC - Male Client

FT: What's that doing to your sense of security? You’ve said in here. Mentioned
you‘re feeling secure?

FC: It makes me feel, ummm... It makes me feel secure. It makes me feel that he
has a good time with me. That he enjoys being with me. Because he’s not so
down all the time — in a bad mood. You know, I can be... You know, if you like
who you’re with and you...

FT: Um hmm.

FC: You have more fun. You enjoy yourself. You're yourself.

FT: What do you think is happening different nowf? Or what do you see has changed
that is causing him, his mood to be better?

FC: I don’t know. Everything is still the same in our lives. I just think that MC’s really
really trying.

FT: Okay. Remember the last time you were here and you felt like things were going
better? And I tried to get you to predict a relapse. To predict what happens if.
The “what if' kind of thing. And you were thinking about making a contract with
each other as to what you would do if you felt a fight coming on or things
escalated. Did you try doing that or did you think about that?

MC: Ummmm, yeah. We thought about it a little bit. Actually, we did have a little fall-
out there. That night you went to bed mad.

FC: I don't remember.

MC: Ummm. We more or less decided that, you know. That we would try and work it
out within, you know, an hours time frame or something like that. And if it gets
too late into the night or it gets to where it’s not productive, then maybe we’d just
would be better off sleeping on it. Sleeping together. Just, you know,
understanding that, and, you know, in the morning feeling more refreshed and
better able to talk and understand and you know... Other than late at night which
sometimes it gets and you get a little tired too, you know. So that’s kind of what I
got out of it. I think... I think that’s what she got out of it too. A little bit.

FC: I guess I don't remember it. Because it's hard for me to go to bed when we're still
like that. I don't remember that.

MC: Didn't you sleep on the couch or lay on the couch or...

FC: No. I don’t remember that at all. Neither one of us has slept on the couch in a
long time.

MC: No. You came back in. You just went out on the couch. You didn’t...

FC: Oh. I don't remember.

MC: Well then I‘m confused.

FT: Well, it's just that kind of thing that I wanted you to think about together and talk
about predicting that. So that you feel more comfortable about it if that happens,
what are we going to do about it? Instead of like now everything’s going along
real great and that’s really good. But I’m kind of... I'm a little bit concerned just
because it’s difficult for you to explain to me what's better or different or what’s
changed. And because of that, I know you're trying harder right now. Ummm. In
a year from now and you're not coming here anymore and things seem to be
resolved and you’re not coming here and you have one of these flare-ups. Do
youseewhat l’mtryingtogetat?

FC: Um hmm.

140

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

FT: That’s what I’d like you to think about. When are... One of the questions I
wranted to ask you is that... You talk a lot about being close and feeling close.
And when you’re not feeling close, that’s when you seem be a little bit more on
edge and fights occur for you more often. That’s what I’ve heard you say. How
do you knowwhen that feeling happens? What’s going on when you're not
feeling as close? And what are you going to do to prevent that?

MC: Ummm. I guess maybe not being close a lot of times is just doing our own thing
throughthedayandnothavlngachancetospendwitheachother. Andthenyou
go a period of two or three days where you’ve really been tired. She’s doing the
dinner. I’m watching the kids. We eat for a few minutes. You know, we read the
stories. The kids are to bed. We’re tired. We watch TV. We don’t talk. We go
to sleep. Some routine like that for a few days. And, you know, no touching,
no... I mean not no touching.

FT: Yeah.

MC: Limited touching. Limited intimacy. Leads to, you know, I guecs maybe not
feeling as close to that person. And then if something is said. Something is
taken wrong. Somebody gets mad. Since you’re not as close, you know, you feel
a little more distant. You don’t ummm... You know, you feel more defensive.

FT: Um hmm.

MC:Iguessthat’skindofsomeofit.

FT: It feels different for you.

MC: Right. It's a feeling.

FC: Differences I’ve seen... Like he’s been more ummm... He’s been more fun to be
around. You know, laughing, smiling, not seeming as depressed.

FT: When you have the feeling that he’s depressed, what happens?

FC: Inside of me?

FT: Inside of you. And how do you know he’s depressed? What gives you that
feeling that he‘s depressed?

FC: Hejust kind ofmopesaround. Hejust doesn’ttalkatall. And ahh, you know, he
snapsback. Hesnapsalot. Iflsaysomethinghesnapsandgetsvery
defensive. You know I’ll say something. He’ll go, “Well, I didn’t dothat.‘ And I’ll
go, “I didn’t say you did do that.” You know, that’s not what I said. Like, you
know, he gets real defensive ummm like ummm go away if you’re going to be so
grouchy. Go play golf with your friends. Go away. You know. But, like he’s
beenalotmorefuntobearound.

FT: Have you told him that?

FC: Ummm. I don’t know. I don’t think I have.

MC: I don't think so. I don't really remember per se her saying that to me.

FT: How does that make you feel to know that she thinks you’re a lot more fun to be
with?

MC: That makes me feel good.

FC: He was, ummm, cracking a lot of jokes the other night. And I told him, you
know... I told him that he was being fun and it was fun and everthing. And then
hegotuptogotothebathroom andwhen hecame back, you know, hewastired
and he wanted to go to sleep.

FT: Umhmm.

FC: You know it was like you’re not fun anymore.

MC: Yeah, yeah.

141

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: I’m done wn'th the bathroom, it’s time to go to sleep. So...

FT: It’skindofneatwhenyou notice littlethings likethatabouteachother, to leteach
otherknowthat. Becausea lotoftimeswegive feedbackwhen each otheris
doing things that we don’t like. But a lot of times we forget to give feedback when
they’re doing things that we like. So if she’s been more relaxed and happier and
that makes you feel good, it’s good to let her know that and visa versa. If he’s
been morefunandfunnier, it’sgoodto let people knowthat. ‘Causethat’sthe
thing that keeps those feelings going. You’re talking about the closeness and
feeling close. Maybe you haven’t been able to be close. But just a small
compliment like that saying, “Gosh I’ve really noticed this past week we’ve had a
really busyweek, butyou’vebeeninareallygoodmoodandthat reallykeepsme
up and makes me feel really close to you.” Just giving that little verbal feedback.
Sometimes the way to keep that closenecs there without needing to feel it
physically... Or, like you mentioned. Sometimes you don’t have the time to be
closeand intimateandtouching. Thenthat’skindofaway
to do that closeness.

MC: Yeah. Just taking things a little on the lighter side.

FT: Umhmm.

MC:’Causereallyit’sbeenkindofhardlately. Becauseofmyleg hasn‘tenabledme
todoalotofthingsorhelparoundthehouse. And FC’sbeendoingalotofthings
aroundthehouse Andlknowit’shardonher. But, you know, andthatcouldbe
a situation where we’re both tired and one thing is said. And we’re tired and we’re
just, you know. Andallofasuddensornebodysnapsandthenyouget
defensive and a fewwords are passed. It’s not a big fight, but you have bad
feelings. And that right there is had to patch up. Nobody wrants to give in. On
that. So umm, it like it’s been kind of hard lately in that aspect. And I knowthat
personally I've been very very frustrated. It’s been hard to mlk around like this
foramonth. Togoto Floridaonvacation and belikethat. And notbeabletorun
and do all the things that I like to do and that. So that’s been really frustrating.

So it...

FT: Um hmm.

MC: I’ve been feeling pretty good about us, you know. Because we’ve been getting
alongandit’s,youknow, beenkindofhardtakingcareofournephewforaweek
there when his mother and dad were having...

FC: Yeah. That (nephew’s name) thing has been going on for a couple weeks...

MC: A couple melts.

FC: And then we. So MC was bringing them home every night “cause he’s Mn
going to the babysitter with his Gmndma. So MC was bringing them home every
day sothey could, you know, stay overthere and help herand not pick him up till
late.

FT: Um hmm. An extra kid makes a big difference.

MC: One extra kid.

FT: Oh yeah.

142

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

MC: Yeah, he’s you know... He’s a little over a year younger than (male child #1’s
name). And you know (male child #1's name) is, you know, five now. So he's a
little more... You know, you don’t have to watch him as much. You can watch
him go over to the next door neighbor's and go in the yard and then come back in
and, you know, sit down for ten or fifteen minutes before we go out and see. Vlfrth
him you can’t do that so it takes a little more time.

FT: How do you think you could get him to dress himself?

FC: Well, we got to get him to bed earlier at night.

MC: Well, see, you... I mean that's hard too. lt’sjust... We work and we eat and he
playsalittle, andyou know... Andhe’shadahardtimeatschool.

FC: That would create more stress for us if (male child #1 ’3 name) had to be in bed
and be done by 8:30. Like we have...

FT: That’s pretty earty though too.

FC: He needs... He could sleep for twelve hours. He gets... He runs all the time.
Really hyper. He runs. (Male child #1’s name), we try, like on a weekend...

MC: Yeah, like we try to have him in by 9:00.

FC: 9:00 with everything done.

MC: ‘Cause wejust feel that too that that’s, you know, that’s about a good time.

FT: Sure.

MC: Especially since he gets... When we get up in the morning and he’s just zonked
out and wewake him up, you know...

FT: Umhmm.

MC:AndIdon’tknowifthat’showeveryparentfeelswriththeirkidatthatageornot.
But we just feel like he’s still tired so...

FC: We get him up at a quarter to seven.

MC: So it’s ahh...

FC: But he’s just kind of 3... He’s kind of spoiled. If we ask him to do something, a
lot of times he’ll say, “I don’t went to.“ “(Male child #1’s name), 90 do it" And
he’ll ignore you.

MC: There’s... The thing is if that’s our fault.

FC: Yeah.

MC: He’s spoiled. So...

FC: Whereas (male child #2’3 name), I don’t know. (Male child 12’s name) is always
going in the bedroom and straightening up. He’s always... He says to me, “You
wanttocomeinthebedroomandhelpmeclean?‘ No. Notthathereallydoes
anything constmctive, but he thinks he is cleaning up.

FT: Sure.

FC: l-le putsthingsall in a big pile in a comer, you know. Putsthreeorfourthings In a
tackle box under his bed. He does it like that. But he... He likes to do chores.

FT: Um hmm.

FC: He can get out the vacuum and plug it in and...

MC: I suppose we could give him chores. I mean give him actual chores to do.

FC: That's something we could start. “Cause (male child #1’s name) been talking
about wanting an allowance.

FT: So when he does his chores, he’s rewarded for his work.

MC: We just... We feel toothat itwill be a little easierwten I get bathrooms and
(male child #1’s name) room done and get him in it. We have a bedroom now
that’s just junk. You knowwith...

143

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

FT: Thenthey’lleach havetheirown room?

MC: They’ll each have their own room. Yeah. We have bunkbeds in there. It’s a
mess because theyjust... Boys... You know kids that age get things out...

FC: It’s a small room and they’ve got all their junk in there.

MC: And it’s hard to have them clean it up. I mean, you know, so... But that's a little
stressful for me becauselhaven’t bsenabletogetinthereand reallydowhatl
want to do. I want to tearout the doors and the trim. Thewindowtrint Paint,
you know. And it’s just real hard to stand up do it all. So I get frustrated and that
becauselcan’tdothat. Iknowiflwasbetterandthatlcouldstartdoingthatand
once I get it done. And then (male child #1’s name) could move in and then...
Things... You know the domino effect. Things start taking care of themselves
and that. So for me that, you know, is a source of frustration sometimes. But I
guess it’s going to take time. .

FT: Soyou hadan instancewhere... Youtalkedalittlebitacoupleweeksagoabout
howifyou haddishesandyou rushedthemtothetableat night. Leftsomething
undone.

FC: Ummm.

MC: The other night we kind of left it. Now how do you mean? Just something that we
figured was something thatwe normally do but...

FT: We’re talking about if we left the dishes. PC doesn’t like to leave the dishes that
night. And then the next morning. We’re kind of talking Saturday. Friday night,
Saturday morning thing where you’re all in bed. In that she wouldn‘t feel like
getting up to do it And you would say, “I will help you.“ Or, you know, “Relax.”
Or... And the kids get you up early anyway. And we talked about having the kids
gogettheirowncereal and lettingyou relaxalittle bit.

MC: Right. Right.

FT: Hasany...

FC: That... I don’t think that...

MC: Mother’s day.

FC: Yeah, Mother’s... Well it’s because of Mother’s day. Mother’s day only comes
once a year.

MC: Well, I know it but it’s something.

FT: I’m meant her doing it voluntarily. Not as a gift, but her just feeling okay about
not doing something.

MC: Oh. Okay.

FC: I guess... I guess... lguessthat it hasn’t really come up.

FT: Okay.

FC: lguessbecausethatcausethekitchen hasn’tbeenasbigamessbecausel’ve
been bringing food home.

144

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

FC:
FT:
FC:
FT:
FC:
FT

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

Well, it sounds like you agree to disagree on that issue. But even if it is brought
up once a year, it might be something that if you feel more like you have a
resolution for it. it won’t be an issue. It won’t be that sensitive issue that you will
bring up and... That's what I was talking about as far as having a plan so that
when you have your next fight, the more things that you are able to resolve when
you are not fighting, be able to talk them over, the less things you’ll have to bring
up when you fight. And if you remember to try to remember to fight fair... When
I talk about fighting fair I mean you don’t bring up the past. You don't bring up the
past issues. You fight about the issue at hand. And you don't blame. And you
use “I' statements. That’s fighting fairly. I think I mentioned that to you before.

: You don't use we or you? It’s just all l’s?

It’s “l' statements and you can use "we." But when you say, "You make me do
this. You make me feel. You don't have the right to." And if it’s you, you, you,
the person is feeling blamed and they’re feeling on the defensive. And they‘re
feeling like they have to protect themselves. And many times it’s more difficult to
listen when you’re being attacked all the time. And I'm not saying that you're not
going to have times when, you know, you really piss me off or something like that.
I mean that’s just the way life is.

Right.

But if you consciously think about well what is it that I'm mad about. Well, he did
this and this is how I feel because of it. So instead of blaming him, it's this is how
I feel because whatever. You’d dowhatever. I feel angry and | feel hurt. Lotsof
times you feel insecure. I’m not liking howthis is going. I'm not liking howl am
feeling. I’m not liking howthe house looks. I'm not liking... And that way you
can say we kinds of things. We need to talk about it. We need to decide what
we’re going to do about this. We need to have some conflict resolution. We
need to problem solve. The we comes in in what can we do about it. That makes
fighting a little bit more fair when we don’t bring up past issues. But if that's a
thing that keeps coming up and it's an unresolved thing that might be helpful and
it may never be resolved completely. You may never feel like either of you have
completely made your point. And, like I’m right...

Right.

But as long as you feel heard, as long as you feel each other is hearing your
needs and concerns, you can empathize with each other a little bit more. Putting
yourself in each other‘s shoes. Being able to kind of step outside yourself and
observe. Observe yourself as a couple. And what’s going on and what those
unresolved issues are abort. That makes it much more helpful. It's a better
feeling. You’re feeling better about the situation.

I see what you mean. I think that would probably be good.

Okay. Well, we can do that next time. But we don't have to do that next time. If
you guys would like to work on something different next time, we’ll do that.

We can... We can go ahead and make our list.

Okay.

I’d like to make our list separately.

Okay.

‘Cause I don’t want to give him any ideas.

: Okay. Why don't you decide what you’d like to do. You can make a separate list

and you can make a together list. You could do both.

145

FC:
FC:
FC:

' That’s alright. Two weeks is alright?

FC: Yeah. (Male child #Q’s name) has a spring concert on Wednesday night.

FC:

FC:

CASE F3 TRANSCRIPTION

Okay.

However it feels good to you to do it.

Okay
Okeydoke. See you next week.

Well, FT, we can’t come next week.

Oh, will he sing?

Yeah. Kindergarten through fifth graders sing. And then the seventh and eighth

graders put on a little play.

: Awww. Okay.
And than (male child #1) has like a baseball game on Thursday night. So...
: Busy family.
FC:

: Springtime is always very busy.

Yeah this is baseball season.

146

CASE F4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC - Female Client, MC - Male Client, FT - Female Therapist

MC:

Fr.

MC:

FC:

MC:

FT.

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FT:
FC:

MC:

FT:
FC:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:
FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

Well we talked and we drank some wine that one night.

Last Monday?

WasitlastMonday? Idon’t knowwhen itvvas.

We go to lunch?

No. You wanted to go with (relative's name).

You really wanted to work out.

Yeah. We went to work out.

So you have had some time together?

Yeah. A little. Because she knows where I’m going to go do the stair stepper.

Uh huh.

Yeah. We spent time together. We went out Saturday night. I went to the footbdl game
earlier.

The MSU football game?

Yeah.

I saw it on TV.

Um hmm. Sad loss.

They were leading almost the whole game.

Uh huh.

It was pretty intense.

They were awful. They couldn’t do anything. They just let them score.

We do some talking at night when we are laying in bed too. We talk abort (inaudible).
Do things go any better? In terms of talking?

Uh huh.

Yeah, I guess. I mean, we didn’t have any major arguments or anything.

Have you tried the reflective listening at all?

I guess we’re... I feel, ummm, you know, just getting by without arguing is a good step.
How has it been for you, FC?

Good. He’s still wanting time to ourselves. Talking to my cousin. He says, “You’re not
going to invite her over are you?“ That’s the only thing. I wasn’t even talking to him, you
know. lwastalkingtoheronthephone. HetumsontheTVand istryingtohearus.

I wasjust wondering if you were going to invite her over or not. You hadn’t talked to her
all week. Pretty nice week so far.

That’s not why. It’s nice because we make it nice.

Yeah but still... Yeah. That’s probably true. I thought itwasa pretty nice week.
What?

I thought it was a pretty nice week.

Yah. It was.

Yeah, because we were together without any outside interference.

So you still think that our relationship is going to be made or broken because of (cousin’s
name).

No, I didn’t say that.

That’s what you’re saying. You’re saying it’s only good if we don’t talk to her.

You’re over-reacting.

No, because I feel so very strongly about them, you know.

Well, you survived all week without having to see her.

I talked to her.

147

CASE F4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC - Female Client, MC - Hale Client. FT - Female Therapist

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FT:

MC:
FT: Well, I think you’re both making the same point. That the reason that it worked well was

MC:

FC:

MC:

€745

Yeah but it is still you didn't hang around with her as much as you did before.
Sothatdoesn'tmean l didn'twanttosee her.

Yeah. So. I was just saying I like the situation. You shouldn’t be getting so up tight about
everything. You know... I mean, that’s my opinion. I thought it was nice. I didn’t say
anything elsebeyondthat. lt’syouthat brought upthethemeofbeaking usup.

You're the one that said that.

I didn’t say that this time though, did I?

No, but that is what you think.

No. I didn’t. You can’t tell me what I think.

What did you say last time?

I said this time. What I’m talking about is what I said this time. I said it was nice.

30 your feelings have changed or what ?

No. Ididn’tsaythateither. You know. ljusthavetoputitortofmymind. Iswhatldid.
I just didn't have to think abort it.

Yah. What I think MC was saying was that he just didn’t have to think about it over the
week. That he wasn’t reminded of anything. But I think what FC is getting at is that it's
still kindofasensitivearea. lsthattheweekwasnice. Ndbecarseofanythingthather
cousin did or didn't do but because of the two of you...

Right. I thought it was nice too because we were together.

becausethetwoofyouweredoing thingstogetherand doing thingswiththefamilyand
thatwasgoingwell. Independentlyofwhateverelsewasgoing on, thatwentwell. I don’t
thinkit’sgoingtohelpfultoandyzethattoomuch. Justkindofletitlayandmpreciateit
and enjoy it.

Yeah. That’swhat I wasdoing. ljustthorghtitwasa niceweek.

It was.

Well, I’ve been going through all of those testing materials.

We flunked, right?

Well, lthinkpeoplehavetheideathatthisisapasslfail kindofthing. What itisisjust
information about how you were feeling the day that you were... That you did this. And it
can change anytime. This isnot This is a lot of information, but it’s sort of uptoyouto
kindoff'rll meinonwhyyouchosetheanswersthatyou did andwecanseehowaccurate
the test scores reflect the way that you understand your relationship and your functioning.
You both have the same ideas that your families for the most part had. And, what you’ve
said in hereandwhatwe’vetalkedaboutistheproblem reallycentersaroundtletwoof
you and one part of your relationship. But overall, the family is in pretty good share it
looks like ummmm in terrnsofthewaythingsarenow. Andyourkidsareatthepoint
where they're still manageable. They haven’t really hit adolescence.

:Wehadthemtostartvvithso...

Your oldest is...

: Thirteen. He’s definitely starting to get that attitude, you know. Sullen all the time and

he’s... I mean notall thetime, butthere’stimeswhen he, you know, you can tell that he
doesn't want to listen to me anymore. We don’t know how he is. We don't know...
There’s no possible way to knowwhat he's thinking, you know. You can see that right in
hiseyes. You canseeitand I canjust rememberfromwhat I did.

148

CASE F4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC - Female Client, MC - Male Client, FT - Female Therapist

FT:

3%

953%

MC:

FC:

FC:

Yah. That indicates... This piece of the assessment, we would, if your son were to come
in, we would give him the adolescent version. So that we would punch his score in on
here someplace. But often what happens when you have a parent who is very centripetal,
who's very focused on the family... When you have an adolescent, it causes a lot of
difficulty because the adolescent is ready to go out and explore the world and they want to
kind of get a little more freedom from the family. A little more autonomy. And they often
end up kind of at odds with parents. Particularly if one parent is very focused on family.
Whereyou are. And I think FC hastheadvantageofbeing a little morecentrifugal ora
little more flexible in terms of looking outside the family. That she may be able to relate to
yoursoninawaythatyoumightnotbeabletobecauseyourexpectationsaremoreto
stick with the family.

: Ummm.

Sothatmightbesornethingthatwewould explore lateron in tennsoflooking atthe
overall family function, berause I knowthatwe have kind oftouched onthat. Thatthat is
a somewhat of an issue in terms of FC’s relationship with your son. And down the line we
might be able to talk about how to promote wablishing a relationship with him that’s a
little different. He’s getting older now and he doesn't. probably doesn’t want the parenting
but he still needs the adult supervision in his life.

: Nodoubt.

Yeah. Theyneedthatforalongtime. Althoughtheydon'twantit.

: Um hmm. You give ‘em a little bit afraid of freedom and they take a mile.

Yup. Absolutely. That's their job. This is the Family of Origin Scale. We’ve talked
about your families in here. And, the way this . . . These are your scores. And FC. yours
are highlighted in the yellow and MC, yours are highlighted in the blue. And what I look at
hereishowthey lineup. Becausetheareaswherethereisgreaterspace, thosearethe
areas that your families of kind of further apart. But your families were fairly similar in
"Clarity of Expression," and "Responsibility," and ”Respect For Others." But there's a big
discrepancy herein ”Conflict Resolution.“ And that kind of shows up in the
cornmunlcation style that the two of you have. And that’s probably an area that needs
attention. But it’s not like you’re way up Mrs on that. You’re still in the moderate range
which indicates that both your families were pretty funaional. In fact, you're up above...
In the high functioning area. Let's see. FC, you’re in ”Separation and Loss," and MC,
”Mood and Tone." yours is above the high range. Generally, people that score
consistently high are people that really know how to work these tests. You know, they’ve
beenintherapyalongtimeandtheykindofknowwhatthetestisasking. Andso
wheneverwesee scoresthatareway up inthe 19—20 area, wealways kind ofwonder...
‘Cause nobody’sthat healthy. You know, so, you knowthatthey’ve had sornetherapeutic
training or something. And typirally people that are down in this range don’t show up for
therapy unless they are court-mandated to. They are generally pretty dysfunctional and
mostlywhatweseein hereare peoplewhoareintheaverageormoderate range. Forthe
most part handlethingsprettywell. Sowhatwelookfor in couples isyourrange
discrepancy. And the two of you are fairly simila. Your families of origin are fairly similar
in most areas.

Well, maybeso, butitgetspretty badwhenwe’renottoo...

When?

: Recent times.

I don’t think so.

149

CASE F4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC - Female Client, MC - Male Client, FT - Female Therapist

MC:

FT:

.115

I do. You may not... You may think it’s... lthinkwe werejust as bad. You know, we’re
arguing and you’ll go back and shut the door, or I’ll walk out and we stop talking. We
never resolve anything. But we’re stopping it.

As long aswe are on this topic, lwant to get this... This is the MS]. This is the one you
did last week. And this one kind of is more specific about communication problems and
conflict and if there’s conflict over child rearing. And it just kind of covers the whole thing.
And problem solving communication... I want to get this right, so let me get my “cheat
sheet" out here. You guys scored above the 65. Here’s the 65. This is pretty high. And
high elevations on problem solving communication indicates marital tension. Surprise,
surprise. There is likely to exist a long accumulation of unresolved differences so that any
minor incident may precipitate a major crisis. Distress is likely to have generalized across
abroad rangeofareasincluding financesand rnaritallparental roles. Andasyouwere...

: Finances... Oh my god...

Yeah. You know that really reflects more specifically some of the problem solving. So I
went to look at the scores here, this gray sea is mixed. All the gray areas are mixed
scoring and the white is you and FC’s score. And so the two of you are very aligned in
terms of the way you perceive this. Your score’s 29 and the MOS score is 31 so that you
arenotthatfarapart inttewaythatyouperceiveit. Andagain, that’soreofthoseareas
where at least you agree that you’re in the sane relationship. You both kind of perceive
that your problem solving abilities or skills are pretty much in agmment.

: That doesn't mean that we solve problems very well.

ltdoesn‘trreanthatyousolvetheproblems,butitrreansthatyouarebothaware.
There’ssomeinstanceswhereyou might have... And normally it'sthewn'fe. The wife
mightbewayuphereandthehusbandmayberightdownherebecausehedoesn’tsee
anyproblem. It’s like if yourmotherand fatherweretodothis, your father mightnotsee
anyproblernatall. Becausehemakesadecisionandthat’sit. Noproblem. Andvery
oftenthat’swhatwe’llseein coupleswhoare... Well, actually,whathappens isthewife
dragstlehusbandtothermy. Andtlehusbandgoes,“Wedon’thaveanyproblems.”
Andshe’sattheendofherrope. Andherscsrewillbewayupthere. Andhisscorevvill
bedown. Andsowhenyouseeadiscrepancylikethat,it’salotharder
togetthatonepersontomove. Butinyourinstancebecausethetwoofyou... lrrean
youareboth awarethatyouhave difficulty solving problems. Solthinkthatthatn'eans
that’sanareawecanworkonandthatyoubothwouldbemotivatedtoworkon. Whereas
sonepeople would just say, “Well, Idon't haveanyproblems." Andwrouldn’t even
addressthat. So,inaway,eventhoughthescoreishigh,it’sgoodthatthetwoofyou
havescoredinalignrrent.

MC: Yeah.

150

CASE F4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC - Female Client, MC - Male Client, FT - Female Therapist

FT:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

FC:

I like to use the Family of Origin Scale with the MS! because a lot of the things that
come up in the family of origin sort of translate into problems later on with the family. This
set you guys can take home with you. This has... I have to keep all the other stuff. But
these are the questions and categories, and if you have a chance this week, you could go
over this and see if there’s anything you think you ought to talk about. All it is is it’s a
breakdown ofthequestionsthatyouansweedonfliesesleandwhatareastheyare
concernedwith. And l’vejust... Yourscoresshowing again mostlyintheaveragerange—
average to high range — so it indicates that your perception of your families of origin is
adequate. That you didn't... That neither one of you feel that your families of origin were
extremely dysfunctional anyway. That there were some needs that were getting met in
your family of origin. Does that make sense to you both?

: What does the high mean?

loftengothroughtheBSlwithpeople. Thetwoofyouaresonon—symptomaticthatwe
don’tneedtospendmuchtirrewithit. lrreanyoubothhadlotsofzeros. didn’teven
bothertoscoreitbecauseFC,youmighthavehadoneortwoandMCyouhadore.l
mean it’ssolowthat obviously whatever is goingonisnotcausing youalotofphysical
symptomsoralotof... You don’t have... You haven’tdevelopedanyphobiasofparanoia
oranything like that. lmean that’swhatthis is all abort.

: What’s it ealled? BSI?

Brief Symptom Inventory. And this is just a list of questions. “How much were you
distressed by nervousness or shakinecs inside? Faintness or dizziness? Thoughts of
ending your life? Poor appetite? Suddenly scared or lonely” It's just a list of different
things. And both of you were... I mean you had a few FC, that said “a little bit.” But most
of it was “not at all” for you and I don’t think I’m concerned until I get people who are
abovetle moderate range. Whoare scoring lotsofthreesorfourswhich istypicallywhat
I get initially. But this was very low for both of you. Now this also, I think, changes.
Because there may be... Sometimes you get somebodythe right day and they're gonna
mark a four where the next day it might be a one. So this is not something that is forever
and always. This was on this particular day, the two of you did not display any real
symptoms. Sol’m notreallyconcenedthateitheroneofyou isonthevergeofa nervous
breakdown or anything like that. That’s sort of what this is. Screening for people being
Wessedoranxiousorphobicinsomeway. So I’mjustnotconcerred. Whateveris
troubling the two of you in terms of your relationship, it’s not manifesting in any physical
symptoms. That’s good news. I thought it was good news. I hope you think it's good
news. Do you think it‘s accurate? Is that a surprise to you? Did you think...

: I'm not having physical problems.

We’rejust kind of... Ourstomachswere kind ofupset. We had... We weren’t eating that
much. I think that was like the biggest thing and we were kind of like wow...

I think your stomach was more upset and I wasn’t having stomach problems.

Okay, then you didn’t sleep.

No

You said you weren’t eating. You were saying, “Oh, I think I got an ulcer.” Don’t you
remember that?

Yeah, maybe...

Yeahhhh.

Well...

Forget it! Well, but I think that was the biggest thing. You know, that...

151

CASE F4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: FC - Female Client, MC - Male Client, FT - Female Therapist

FT:
FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:
FT:
FC:

Fr
FC
FT:
FC
MC

FT:

MC:

FT:

MC:

FT:

Just the tension?
Yeah. Well, hopefully... Well, Ithink...
We ate good over Thanksgiving.

Yeah. We ate a lot.

Well we had shrimp

Ywi. Ummm. That was good. We had the last of the shrimp.

And that apple thing you made.

Oh yeah. I made a Bavarian Apple Torte.

Ohh. Wow.

Really good. First time. The kids helped. They were peeling the apples. They did all the
apples. Cause it’s surprising how much apples you need. They said you only needed
what... four cups. But that’s, you know... A bowl like that.

: Um hmm.
: But that’s a lot of apples. The kids did a good job, didn’t they?

Everybody enjoyed it, huh?

: Yeah. It carneoutgood. But we’re overthat now.
:Youhavetowrorkitoff. Havetoworkout. Didn’tworkoutashardaslcould. lusually

work out. During my lunch hour I work out. Ordinarily. But after being so relaxed on tle
weekendandtryingtogetmotivatedtogetagoodworkort.

Um hmm.

Andtrytodowhatlusuallydo.

And you walk to the refrigerator. Powenwalk.

No, you tell the kids to go get me something.

They need the exercise.

152

CASE F5 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: MC - Male Client, FT - Female Therapist, FC - Female Client

MC:Orjust impressed mewhen I did hearabout it.

FT: Sure.

MC: And maybe there was some bitterness too.

FT: Um hmm. Okay. let’s see. "Range of Feelings.” You both scored up in this area so
expressive families. Ummmm, "Conflict Resolution.” In this area you rated your family in
empathy very high. Whereas MC tended to drop down in tie sense of empathy given to
on another in the family. It's in the average range. Certainly, you know, I mean you don’t
see them as not being empathic to one another but certainly not way up here where it is
obviously a strength would be.

FC: Um hmm. It’s interesting too. I can’t remember specifically this test, but, ummm, how can
lsaythis? Doyouflndtlratflrere’smuchofadifferencesonefinesbetmnchildhood
and adulthood? Like, I’m just wondering, like ummm, empathy for instmce. I think of your
folks as pretty able to give empathy. But as a child you might not have felt that way. Do
you knowwhat I am saying?

FT: Uh huh.

FC: I’m not trying to figure this out... I was just curious. I couldn’t remember the actual test.
Whetleritwaslikeas I wasgrowing upthiswashowithappenedor...

FT: Pretty much.

FC: Or my family is...

FT: Pretty much as you’re growing up.

FC: Okay. Yeah, I was just curious. I couldn’t remember.

FT: But you’re seeing... You're answering those questions as an adult, but you're
mnembering the way you felt growing up. Your childhood.

FC: Ummm

FT: So... And it may be that, you know, MC is kind ofthe ortsider in the family. May have felt
that nobody was really terribly concerned about his position. I’m putting words in your
mouth, but that’s, you know, when you’re... I’m kind of questioning it.

MC: The trust.

FT: Yeah, yeah.

MC: Might show that.

FT: Year.

FC: I had neverreallythoughtabout it until I thinkourlast sessionorttesession beforethat. If
you didn’t ask for a lot or if you didn't demand a lot, if... And I'm not saying you should
have, ldon’trrean itthatway, butthat Ijust neverthoughtofitthatway. Thatitcould
correoutthatway. Thatyou know, ifyouweren’tpaida lotofattentionto, butthenyou
weren’t a real demanding kind of kid.

MC:Yeahandlthinkwhenlwasababythatljustneverkindoflearredtoattachmyselftoone
person. Or, ahhh, oh I don’t know, maybe I... Maybe that happens before you're6 weeks
old, I don’t know. Ijust knowthatl moved arounda lotand ahhh, it probably hasthesame
effectonapersonasmoving aroundallthetirrefrom housetohousewhileyouare
growing up and going through school. It’s probably similar. I never really felt close to
people or attached to anybody, 50...

FT: And you never really demanded that anybody pay attention to you.

MC: No.

153

FT:

CASE F5 TRANSCRIPTION

Oryourneedsoryourwants. Somaybeatthattimeyoudidn’tknowwhattheywere
sitter. Youknow,itwasjustamatterofifljustkeepsilentthingsvvillkindoffallintoplace
withoutyou mcldngtleboatlikeyourbrothersweredoing obviously. Theyweregetting
attentionandmaybethatwasnegative in someways.

MC: Ummm

H”:

FC:

FT:
FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:
FT:

You may have Ieamed from their experiencesthat it’s bestjust not to ask fora lot of
attention. I don’t know. I’m wondering how that’s affected the relationship that you two
have. Doyoufindthathehasrepeatedsomeofthosepattemsofnotaskingforalot. 0f
not asserting himself for his own needs throughout the relationship that you’re had?

Just off the top of my head. I feel like MC doesn’t mu himself a lot. It’s not like he’s
demanding. I guess there’s a difference between assertive and demanding.

Uh huh.

He isn’t demanding a lot, except that when he does want something, it’s like I haven’t
asked for anything so I want this now! That’s just off the top of my head.

It’s already too late.

Too late?

Well it’sthen l have the feeling it’s already too late. I’ve already missed out on too much,
so I’m going to have to make up for it.

Well, see, I differ with you. I feel that you don’t try. I think years ago when (male child’s
name) was little or (female child’s narre) was little, we used to really think out on
Saturdays, for instance. We would make a list of what was reasonable today and what
wasn’t. And we would kind of prioritize it a little. And say well, how about if you do this this
morning and I’ll do that this afternoon. Whatever. I mean I that was a long time ago. It
didn’t always worked perfectly smoothly, but I feel like you do just kind of... That youjust
have given up on that. That you just don’t eke time to do that.

That’s true. That I don’t plan...

Yeah, and at the end of Saturday or Sunday you’re really pissed at everybody around you
because your weekend has been kind of crummy. And I’m saying I didn’t do anything to
make your weekend crummy. What did you want to do? I guess I’m asking you to take
more initiative. Not nececsarily. Sometimes you do that, sometimes you just say, "Well
now I’m going somewhere.” And that to me is like the flip side of it. It’s either black or
white. Not this gray area where we could figure out. And then I’m like, ”Gee this doesn’t
workoutformerightnowthatyoujusttakeoff. lwasgoingtogodogroceryshoppingor
something like that for supper tonight." That’s a rare time, but it’s like how about that gray
areawherewe plan itouta little bitmoreand figureoutwhatworksforbothofus?

Well, like it must be very common for everybody not to have time to do anything that they
want to. I mean, let’s be so... Idon’t know. What everyone else does this...

Yeah. Idon'teither. I havetoadmit it. I don’tknowhowotherpeopleworkthat.

I know. And you’ve got a busy family. You’ve got four kids, so... But when you start
finding that it’s breaking down and your feelings about being in the relationship, that’s a
time to reexamine and say the costs here are greater than the sacrifice I’m making. And
what do we have to do to change it. And it might be something as black and white as
sitting down and communicating at tie breakfast table or whatever. This is what I would
like to do today. It’s important enough to me to prioritize it. And, you know, each of you do
that. Andtlen, you know, lookatwhatcanyou putofftill anothertime.

: Uh huh.
: So it sounds like you guys did that quite effectively before.

154

CASE F5 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: Yeah, as long as my memory’s right.

MC: We used to make lists, yeah. Then the lad 5 years or so lists have been kind of a... You
don’t like lists anymore.

FC: Theway you say that and I say... It just blows me away. You’re doing it right now. I have
never unliked lists. And I don’t know what it is. You have said this to me before. And I
said I don’t know where you get this.

MC: Ummm.

FC: Did I stop you from making lists over tle lad 5 years?

MC: I think you’ve thrown them away or something.

FC: No. That That That is not true whatsoever. You couldn't find it and I was to blame.

MC: No. Well, I’ll try to keep better track of them.

FT: So tle lid idea worked for awhile and then it kind of fell by the wayside. Which is pretty
typical-

FC: Yeah. It worked for quite awhile, really. I mean... And it wasn’t necessarily a lid that was
ajointlist. You know, I mean sometinesyou hadyourlid and I had mine. Andthenwe
would figure out well, you do the morning and I’ll do the afternoon or something.

FT: Well even ifyoujudverbalize it, you know, andyou don't put itdown on paperunlessyou
know, there’s discrepancies between the way that you receive one another’s
communication about it and then later there’s some unhappiness about well, you know, this
isn’t the way it was intended. But if you can communicate and you fully understand what
the other person intends to do, you might be able to negotiate time.

FC: Uh huh.

FT: Around those things.

FC: Uh huh. It may be worth trying, or sornahing like that you know.

FT: You know, going backtotheladsessionwhereyou guysweredoingsorrecornmunication
skills. Practicing. We never really addressed the issue that you are talking about. And I
wondered ifthetwoofyouramebacktogetherandtalked about itwhenyou metagain.

FC: We didn’t. About the issue with...

FT: The kids...

FC: Thekidsand likeforindanceiflsaysomethingthat’saeprimandandyousaysorrething
along with it.

MC:I kind of feel like if I have to work Saturdays that’s not really my choice, for one thing. I
mean notentirely my choice. Notmychoicetohavethese... Thesedebts, you
understand me?

FC: Right. Well I know that.

FT: But it will relieve you? It will be rewarding to you from the sense that there’s less stress on
you of having these debts.

MC:Ummm. But itappearsthattherewon’tbeasmuch rewardforFCthat l’mworkingon
Saturdays.

FT: Yah.

MC: But...

FC: Well, doyou understand that? You knowwhat I’m saying. I feel like I...

MC:| feel like you don’t really care that we’re...

FC: No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait.

MC: That we’re spending a third of our money jud to pay intered on our debts.

155

FC:

FT:
FC:
FT:
FC:

CASE F5 TRANSCRIPTION

No, MC, that's a gross exaggeration, a gross exaggeration. First of all, I’m feeling
frustrated right now because I feel like I have a legitimate... I feel it’s okay for me to react
to you like. “My god, you're going to be gone every Saturday. And not only Saturday, but
Friday night you're going to be needing to go to bed early ‘cause you have to be there at
6:00.” This is an impact on us. And | feel like you can allow me a reaction. I had a 5-
minute reaction to that. At the most. That’s it. I was more like, “Ohhhh.”

So in other words, you would like for him to express some empathy for those feelings
you're having.

Yes and let me have them. I mean, we'll work it out. I’m not saying let’s. you know...
Yes.

You know, quit the job or anything.

MC:I feel like I‘m going to get the blame for though whereas I feel the same feelings.

FT:

And that’s... That’s your, your perception that is to react defensively to that because then
it seems like, “Oh, I'm doing something wrong she's not going to approve of."

MC: Um hmm. Or I should be more in charge of my thoughts.

FC:

FT:
FC:

No. It's more of... It's more sometimes I have a little frustration with this because I'm. and
I think I’ve told you this. I'm really glad that you're: a) working, b) that you kind of like this
work. Like you said to me lad week... Maybe we talked about this. He said to me one
night. “For what it’s worth, you know, I look forward to going to work." And I said, “That is
worth a lot.” I said, “I‘m happy for you. That’s fantastic.‘ You know, and I said... And
then I tried to say, "Like when you have a down day," I said, you know, that down days are
wally normal. It’s okay to not have up days everyday. Everybody has “em. You know, I
try to be supportive of this. But one thing I guess I have to get off my chest here is you’re
expected to work from 7:004:30, okay, Monday through Friday. 6:00—2:00 on Saturday.
And they have one week vacation.

Uh huh.

:Andso I havealittlebitofachipon myshoulder. Notatyou. Butwhenyoutoldmewhen
you interviewed for this job you said it might be Saturdays a half day. Half days to me
means 4 hours. That’sjust a rough idea I get in my head. So when you said to mejust
now it's from 6—2:00. I did have a reaction to that. That’s an entire day. And | feel like you
are mad at me because I had this normal reaction like, “Shit, he's going to be gone 6 days
of the week.” You know? I mean...

But I'm wondering too if you weren’t already anticipating that kind of a reaction.

on, I'm sure he was.

MC: Yeah. I didn't want to tell her.

FT:
FC:

Yeah.

But see... And I understand that. But FT, this was something that happens a lot. Not a
lot, but it has come up occasionally. Is that I’m not allowed to have feelings about this kind
of thing. That I’m supposed to support it. Because he already feels bad about it. And so,
"I already feel bad, so don’t react." And I’m saying. “Hey, I’m human.” This does impact
on all ofus. And I feel like I should be able to react to something like this. And alsotrust
me that we will work it out. That I will calm down. But give me...

MC:You really do come across to me as blaming though. Like, like I should have known ahead

FC

FT:

of time that it was 8 hours instead of a half a day. Or I should get my facts straight. Or
that I shouldn’t have taken a job without knowing for sure what I was going to be doing.
:Well I don't mean to... And I don't...
Does she say this?

MC: No, no. But it feels like it’s the sort of things that she would have done.

CASE F5 TRANSCRIPTION

FT: So there's an anticipation of what she would do. I think that your job may be to try to
surprise each other. You can no longer anticipate what the others going to do. You know,
and perhaps finding a different way to approach the subject.

FT: I sense from what you expressed in your feelings about your relationship is that you want
some control back in your life. You feel as though maybe you given too much of it over.
And maybe you didn't see yourself as having a major part in giving that control over. But
now you want more input into decision making.

MC: Yes. Yeah. I just need to speak up more.

FT: Yes. And that will come with communication as well. Okay. Well, let's leave it at that.
And umm you might want be thinking too if there are any other goals that you want really
to work on besides the area of communication.

FC: You know, ahhh. The one area... And I hate to bring it up because it's a very sensitive
area, but one thing that I really deal... Have a hard time with... And that's in the
communication area, is ummm, to put it bluntly, MC's level of anger. Okay. His intensity
of anger.

FT: Uh huh.

FC: I do have a real hard time with that and I’m not trying to point the finger, but it . . . I just
have a hard time with it.

FT: Is it sonething that seems to be periodic? In other words, that maybe some of it’s being
held down. Normal anger is being held down till it builds to a point of intensity. And then it
kind of... Then it’s very apparent?

FC: I don't know.

FT: Okay.

FC: Ummmm. Ummmm. You know, If we have a disagreement that gets... That we're just
gettingnowherewith... Ummmm. Ahhhh. Ijust... I... You get real angry.

FT: Uh huh.

FC: Ummm. And I jud don't deal with it very well. I gusas I was thinking hejust has a really
bad temper.

FT: How would you respond to that?

MC: That usually the anger... I think it doesn't come until we've tried to... We’ve had this
confrontation and I’m trying to do some explaining or some reasoning. And I feel like it
just... It's not the point it comes to. It comes to the point of well who's in power here. And
I feel like I’m not being listened to, and ahhh...

FT: So it‘s affects you more on an emotional level?

MC: Uh huh.

FT: Whereas FC can deal more with issues and get her anger out there and leave it and it
doesn't continue to...

MC: She... I feel like I'm just... When we have a disagreement, | feel like she‘s just ignoring
me. Saying well, not only am I going to ignore you, but I'm going to say that I won't listen
to you because you‘re not reasonable. Where I feel like I am being reasonable. And she's
just setting up this alibi for...

FT: So it evokes some of the...

MC: Not having to listen to me.

FT: Okay, so it brings up some of the sensitivities that you have to not feeling valued as a
person. And that comes across in the conflict.

MC: Ummm. You know, it’s not even that... It turns from the issue that caused the problem.
It tums from that to the discussion or it’s not the discussion but the interaction we have
from that.

157

CASE F5 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: Well, yeah. It gets distracted really quickly.

MC: I don’t think...

FC: Sometimes.

MC:I don't get angry right away. I feel like you push me over the edge and then I get angry
because I can't get anywhere with you. I can’t even talk about it with you.

FC: Well, I don't really agree. I feel that...

MC: Bemuse you have your mind made up and...

FC: No. I feel that the talking part... It doesn’t stay the talking part for very long and treat each
other kind ofcivilly. Vlfith some... And it gets kind of mean and all I...

MC: I don't think it’s civil just to say, "Well, when it gets down to it I know it’s right and you
don't."

FC: No I don't do that.

MC: Well, you do that.

FC: Idon’t. I... How many times have I said to you we can disagree 1000% on this. It’s okay
if we disagree.

FT: Agree to disagree.

FC: Well, let's at least first figure out what... Let’s at least get to that point. We never even
get to that point.

FT: See if you have a balance going on where you can indicate to each at other times, you
know. you truly are valuable to me. I care. It would be much easier to address conflict.

FC: That’s true.

FT: Because if there’s only conflict, that’s only one message. I’m not valued and therefore this
isjust another piece of evidence of it. So if you can communicate to one another, you
know, that you do care, that you do value each other, then you can get beyond the conflict.
Gettheconflictintoaspherewhereit‘sjustthat. Adisagreernent. And itdoesn't reflect
upon personally who I am in this relationship.

FC: Ummm, I think we have argued less lately and that could be, you know. one reason why. I
think we are trying to get closer together and have more confidence and that helps.

158

CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: MT - Male Therapist, FC - Female Client. I” - Male Client

MT: Have you-all ever had an argument that got physical?

FC: Not really.

MC: For a month.

F C: Yeah.

MC: But she never hit me before.

MT: Right.

MC: For a month now she comes out swinging. There’s no more words. Argument of words.
It’s fists.

MT: Okay. Was that the first time she attacked you?

MC: Oh no, no.

FC: No, it’s not the first time. I’ve been attacking him quite a bit in the last month.

MT: In the last month

FC: Yeah.

MT: Okay. Go ahead with your story.

FC: 80 (male son’s name), like I said, (male son’s name) started crying because he didn’t want
to go with us, you know, and my nephew's sitting there and he’s telling (male son's name),
you know. "There's nothing wrong with it.’ You know, and, 'All they're gonna do is ask you
some questions.’ And (male son’s name)'s like, ‘No, no.” And I says, “Well I’ll mil daddy.
Daddy..." And (male son’s name) is saying, ‘No, don’t call daddy, he'll make me go.’ And I
said, ‘Well you need... You talk...’ ‘Cause I knew then when he said that MC could get
(male child’s name), you know. So...

MT: Now where did you want to get (male son’s name) to 90?

FC: Well (male son's name) has to go see... (Male son’s name) has to. He has to go see
somebody and be tested for his reading.

MT: Okay.

MC: No, not now he don’t.

FC: Not now he don’t?

MC: I talked to his teacher.

FC: Well that’s...

MC: They think all the problem is is....

FC: A lot has to do with me. What is happening to me is what is happening to (male son’s
name).

MT: Oh, I hape they’re not putting too much of this on you. But go ahead.

FC: No, but umm, so I called MC up and his dad said he was sleeping. And that automatically
set me off, to think that he’s sleeping, you know. And then I says, “Well, I need to talk to
him.” So they go down and get him. And MC gets on the phone and I try to pass it to (male
son’s name) and (male son’s name) won’t talk to him. No way, no how would he talk to MC.
You know, ‘cause he's crying. So I get back on the phone and I says 'He don't want to talk
to you.” And I don't know what MC said to me but he set me off and I said, "Forget it!” And
I just hung up on him. So I'm setting there and I’m drinking a little bit more, you know, and
then I wait about 15 minutes, and then I’m like this is shit. And I... And then I go down
there. And then I start in on him. I didn’t start hitting you, though? I never hit you that
time.

MC: Yeah you did.

FC: Where’d I hit you?

MC: You hit me right here in the arm.

FC: Oh.

159

CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

MC: It was black and blue.

FC: I don't remember that.

MT: Were you drunk, F C?

FC: Oh yeah.

MT: Were you drunk? Were you drunk when you grabbed him in the groin?

FC: Oh yeah. Oh no, not that time. Yeah, we were. Yup, I was drunk. Yup.

MT: Okay. .

FC: And so then I left and I’m like I’m just gonna bag it. I’m tired of it. I’m gonna smash my car
against a tree. So I go back down to the house and get the rest of my bottle and tell (male
son’s name), 'See you, (male son’s name). You go call your dad and have your dad come
get you.” You know, I mean I‘m angry.

MT: What day was this?

FC: This was Monday.

MT: Monday.

FC: Monday. So I get my bottle and I go by their house. And I’m like, shit I’m gonna come
back and I’m gonna let him know, you know, that when he finds me again I’m gonna be out
in that front yard in a tree.

MT: You stopped by where he is?

FC: Yeah, so I went back again and then I just started causing a major scene and stuff, you
know. And then when I got ready to go and then they wouldn't let me go, you know. His
mom was going to get in the car with me, you know. If I’m gonna take my life then I’m
gonna take hers with me, you know.

MT: I thought you were close to his parents?

FC: I am. I am. That’s why she wouldn't let me go without her.

MT: Good.

FC: You know, so she said if I'm gonna take my life, then I’m gonna take hers with her. You
know, she wouldn’t let me get in my car. So by that time then they had called my brother.
And then they called the cops. Well and then my brother’s telling me that I need to go to
jail. You know, and I... And MC’s... I guess MC had been talking to the cops and telling
‘em take me somewhere, you know. Where I can get help. And my brother comes up to
me and tells me that I need to go to jail and sit in a jail cell and, you know, and think about
this shit.

MT: Sober up and you’ll feel better?

FC: Yeah. Um humm. So the next thing I know I got the cops trying to put handcuffs on me
and shit. They had me down on the ground and they finally got the handcuffs on me.

MT: You were resisting?

MC: Oh yeah.

FC: Well, of course I’m gonna resist. I don’t need to go to jail. You know. It’s like I wasn’t
doing anything wrong, you know. At that point I was just...

MT: Hold on a minute cause I really do need to hear this. What were you doing? What were
you thinking as you were witnessing this what must look like insanity?

MC: When they came, they talked to me first. And they asked me... The cops asked me, says
well, “If we take her somewhere, will you admit her for psychiatric help?” I go, ”Yeah. Let's
go. I’ll ride with her. That’s why you're here.”

MT: Were you sober?

MC: Oh yeah. I was sober,

FC: Yeah he was.

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MC:And uh, next thing I know we go over and talk to her brother and she’s in handcuffs going to
jail. Okay. Okay. Did you know we took her... What was it, about a month ago now. We
took her to Ingham Medical. I don't think we ever told you that.

MT: I don't think I read anything on your...

MC:Yeah, me and my ma and her girlfriend took her down to Ingham Medical a month ago
'cause she wanted to end her life. And we got her talked into going down there.

MT: Was this before or after the shotgun in the mouth thing?

MC: This was before the shotgun.

MT: Okay.

FC: This was why we come to you. Because I made the appointment at that place.

MC: Right. Yeah, they gave us your...

MT: Oh. okay.

FC: That was why I made the appointment.

MT: Okay. So you went down to Ingham Medical. Let me ask you again. As you saw what was
going on, tell me how you felt.

MC: I hoped I could try and talk her into going and get help.

MT: Okay, but how did it make you feel?

MC: It made me feel like shit. I couldn’t live with her. I had to leave. I couldn’t stay with her.
She beat me.

MC: It could be. It happened two years ago that I wasn't close to her all this and that. That's
why we're here. We’re trying to get close. But...

MT: I know.

MC: Why she's doing what she's doing I don't know.

MT: Okay. I don't either. And I don't think she does either right now. And, you know, we
obviously will deal with that. I just wanted to get a better idea of... Perhaps how you
understand what you're seeing. How deeply FC's affected by being married to you. Do you
know what I am saying? Okay. If you heard blame in that, I apologize and I don't think
that’s true. I just think that it points to the significance of something that she needs.
Something I think you need too. Okay?

MC: What's that?

MT: A marriage where you are not being chased around the house and being assaulted and
abused.

MC: I know that I can’t live like that.

MT: A marriage where she feels like she can come to you in a rational way and maybe you
could share... I hate that word... Maybe you can be deeper with her, if you know what I
mean.

MC: Be what?

MT: Deeper. Emotionally. More there. Connected with her.

FC: Oh, these last few days, MC has... I mean MC’s been so good, I mean so supportive. I
mean it’s like...

MC: I've been supportive to you through the whole thing, I thought...

FC: Well, yeah you have. But. to me, at that point, you caused it all in my eyes. You're the
one... Then... Not now. But I'm just talking, if you would have asked me Friday night, if
you would have asked me Saturday, you would have caused it all. You were to blame for
everything, you know. That’s the way I was feeling.

MC:You know what I thought? At one time I thought maybe you were having guilt for what you
did.

FC: No.

MC:That's why you understand. You had guilt.

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CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: It was. A little guilt too. It was that too. It was for the fact that I did go to somebody else
and I didn't come to you first and say, “Hey, look, you’re either going to start giving me what
I need or I’m gonna leave you, you know. Yeah, there was guilt. There has been a lot of
guilt built up to that. Definitely. I know what you are saying.

MT: I just want to be sure you’re okay to go on.

FC: Oh yeah.

MT: Yeah?

FC: Yeah. They gave me an EEG today and the shit that’s in my hair is driving me crazy

MT: I’ve never had one of those. What do they do?

FC: They just put 23 little wires hooked into your head, you know?

MT: 23?

FC: Yeah there’s 23. And then they take brain waves... It's a... It takes the brain waves and
makes a little pattern there, you know. And that stuff... And he come got me right after
they had it done. So it’s like so gross.

MT: Are your brain waves okay?

FC: Yeah, so far. I guess. And they're doing a CAT scan on me Friday.

MT: Okay.

FC: Just to make sure they got me on the right stuff. Because I had an accident in February of
'92. A severe one. My head bent the steering wheel. So that's how hard I hit.

MT: Geez.

FC: 80 when I told them that today. So that's why they're doing... Just to make sure that they,
you know, I ain't got no tumors or anything like that that could be throwing me off balance.
There’s this book that they gave me that has pictures.

MT: Well, I'm glad they gave you something that you can look at and identify with...

FC: Oh yeah. Definitely.

MT: What happened... What happened after the police had you in 'cuffs.

FC: Yeah, so I was setting in jail for what... Five or six hours. And the whole time I’m thinking,
“See, nobody loves me. Nobody cares.” You know, this is what I kept, you know,
convincing myself. One minute I’d say, "No, they do love me. They do care.” You know,
and the next minute it's like... I mean my mind would jump back and forth towards it. And
then all week, you know, basically I would be alright for a moment, you know, and then,
especially when he wasn't there during the day. If he wasn't around me, and of course he's
at work, you know. So I'm fighting with myself. One minute I’m pissed at him and the next
minute I’m not, you know. And I go back and forth with it with myself. And by the time he
gets home, I'm basically pretty, you know...

MC: By the time I get home I don't know where you're at.

FC: You know. You know. And then...

MT: Now. Because... Sony, I want to make sure that I'm on the same page as you guys in
terms of the timeframe. Are we just talking basically the last month?

FC: You wouldn’t have known, though. You wouldn’t have known. I was in the garage. You
wouldn't have known. By the time you would have... By the time I would have stopped
talking to you, you wouldn’t have known.

MC: Yeah but I'd already called your mother and told her it was in her ballpark now.

FC: So. Well, they would have got there too late too.

MT: What do you mean by that? You’d ccll her mother to say. ”It was in your ballpark?”

MC:Yeah.

FC: Because he couldn't do any more. He had... You know, I’d already...

MC:I can’t handle her. Every other day she wants to kill herself, you know.

MT: Okay.

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CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

F C: So this time I was able to do it. There was more crying about it. How I was going to do it.

MT: You had... You were pretty serious.

FC: Yeah. I was there and then all of a sudden um, l’d gotten sick. I was like, whoa all these
fumes and the car and everything, you know. And I’m sitting there, and I’m like... And I'm
trying to get back to the door because this time by then, you know, everything had really
gotten into my system. So I’m sitting there at the door and I’m like, do I want to do this or
not, you know. The next thing I know here comes (sister’s name) and all of ‘em. (Female
friend’s name) looking in the door at me. And break my door, my garage door down and
they pulled me out. And then from that point on....

MT: Are these the two that came by that night when you had the shotgun. Were these the same
two?

FC: No that was my sisters that came by that night. But (Female friend’s name) has been there
through everything.

MT: Yeah. Okay.

FC: (Sister's name) is real... ‘Cause (female friend’s name) had called me when l was in the
garage. That's why... Oh okay. “Cause (Female Friend's Name) had called me when l
was in the garage and asked me for a ride to work. And I said, ”No, I can’t give you a ride
to work.” And I hung up on her. And she knew something in my voice right then and there.
So she called (sister‘s name) up and that’s why they come over to the house. I didn't tell
them to come over to the house, but they just heard something in my voice.

MT: You’re still in the garage?

FC: Yeah. I'm in the garage. “Cause I got a cordless phone.

MT: Okay.

FC: 80 that’s why when I was going to talk to MC on the telephone... While I was in there, I just
wanted to, you know, let him know that this was it. You know?

MT: So they dragged you out of the garage.

MC:And you left notes in your car too. Did you know that?

FC: Uh huh.

MT: What did you want people to know? What did you want to convey in that suicide note?

FC: Idon’t... Idon't remember what was in ‘em. I mean I don’t. Do you know?

MC: I’ve got it.

FC: Do you got it?

MT: What do you think she was trying to say in her suicide note?

FC: The hospital has 'em.

MC:I made a copy for them.

FC: Oh.

MC: I think the cops has got ‘em. I think (name of a township) got one of ‘em.

FC: Oh. Oh boy.

MC: Well that’s who... I had to get it from them. (Name of a township). They had it and I had
to go get it from them that night.

MT: I don’t want to put too much emphasis on that. But is there any way I can get a copy. You
might be able to bring copies in next time. Just for the files. So I could get a sense of
where you were at that time. I could get a better idea if I can read...

MC: You know you left one in your car too?

FC: No. I didn’t know there was one in my car.

MC: Yeah. You were going nuts and (sister's name) found it. She found it in your car. I don’t
know what it said. It was only maybe four sentences. Five sentences. But you didn't even
have your name on it or nothing. You didn’t sign it.

MT: Okay. So...

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CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: But, from that point there... From that time on and then they were like... They took me
to... I guess they took me to the police station. From the police station they took me to
Sparrow. From Sparrow to like Ingham Medical Emergency, or I mean their one place that
I had went to to get your number here. And then from there I went to St. Lawrence. And I
been in St. Lawrence ever since.

MT: They took you to the police first?

F C: Yeah, because they couldn’t revive me. (Mother's Name) and (Step Father‘s Name) did.
They took me ‘cause they couldn’t revive me.

MT: You were unconscious.

FC: Yeah.

MT: 80 you don’t remember this?

FC: No, no.

MC: It wasn’t (Mother's name) and (Stepfathers name) who took you.

F C: Who was it?

MC: It was (female friend's name) and (sister's name).

FC: Oh. (female friend's name) and (sisters name) took me?

MC: Yeah.

FC: Oh, I can’t.... I’m sure I don’t know. My goodness, maybe you should tell this part.

MT: You went to the hospital?

FC: I remember waking up in the ambulance. I remember waking up in the ambulance. They
tied my hands down.

MC: (Sister’s name) and (female friend's name) was throwing you in the car taking you when
your mother and all them showed up. So they went and followed you over there evidently.
And (Mother’s name) rode in the ambulance from there.

MT: So you went from your place in an ambulance to the hospital?

F C: No. I went from my place to the police station...

MC: Right around the comer.

(Township name) Township is right around the corner from us. And then, ‘cause I
remember waking up in the ambulance and then he told me something, so I'm trying, you
know. I remember (Sister's Name) saying, ”She’s strong. She's strong.” So the next thing
I know they’re tying me up. From that point on, everybody kept tying me up. Everyone
wants to tie me up. When they tied me at Sparrow they were, you know, they... I told “em
I’d be good. You know, I said, ”Just don’t tie me up no more. I’ll be good.” You know, and
then one minute I’d turn on MC and the next minute I was sweet to him. And MC’s like,
shit, you know. He didn't know if he was coming or going. And so, and then they were
going to tie me up because I wasn't, you know... They weren’t going to let him stay in there
with me, you know. Or he couldn’t stay with me because I was being such a bitch. You
know, and so... And then I told the nurse, the one nurse that I’d always been real honest
with her, you know, times we were there. I says, ”Please. I promise. I already

FC: told you I'll be good." She said, “Okay.” You know, so... And then this other male nurse,
they’re like, okay. So the next thing I know here comes this bitch of a doctor and she says,
"I said tie her up." And I'm like... And I'm getting ready... And I started ripping my IV out...
And I'm ready for a fight. 'Cause you’re not tying me up. You know, and M08 like, 'It’s
gonna take more than just what you've got in here.” And so the doctor’s like, ”Alright, fine
then.” You know. So they didn’t tie me up. And I was fine, you know?

MT: Um hmm.

164

 

CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: How can you sleep in a hospital? Especially when you've got all these weirdos. And
you’ve got this woman next to you who one minute is getting up and down and crying and
screaming and laughing and, you know. In the middle of the night and stuff. And you want
me to sleep? You know. Excuse me, how can you sleep?

MT: Ah, you're, ah, you're getting therapy at the hospital during the daytime?

FC: Yeah. I’ve got, what, four doctors. That you know. And so I’m supposed to be getting out
Friday. I was supposed to get out today, but then they when I told them about the hit on the
head I had they wanted to do the CAT scan, EEG on me. So they can't get the CAT scan
till Friday, so I can't get out until Friday.

MT: Have you talked to the counselor?

FC: Yeah.

MT: Okay.

FC: (Counselor's Name), she’s the counselor there. Or the Social worker. And she's got me an
appointment over at Ingham Medical with ahhh a psychologist, I guess. Somebody that’s
going to have to be able to prescribe me my medications.

MT: A Psychiatrist?

FC: Yeah.

MT: Okay.

FC: So. I guess I get to talk to him tomorrow. I’m just so tired of talking to all these people.

MT: Oh, I’ll bet.

FC: Having to explain everything over and over and, you know. It’s like you feel like a broken
record. It's like I just want one person, you know. Like you. I feel comfortable with you.
You know, but then again... Whewl

MT: How are you feeling now? I mean in terms of the suicidal thoughts, ideas.

FC: Oh. It terrifies me to think that I was like that. It was just so terrifying to think that, you
know. I wasjust really ready to, you know...

MT: Yeah.

FC: Toss it all away.

MT: And, MC, you make a good point too. You know, when people that, I don't think they stop
long enough or often enough to think about how that’s going to destroy the lives of a lot of
other people.

FC: Yeah. But Ijust... l ummm made it better...

MC: You were just thinking of yourself... .

FC: No, but I made it better by me because I figured this way I would stop everybody‘s pain, I
would stop hurting everybody. You know. I can't think of the word I want to use, but it was
like I wasjustifying...

MT: Right. You were rationalizing.

FC: Yeah, I was. You know, but... What am I doing now? You know. All's I’m doing now is
hurting everybody and I‘m being caused pain. So this way I'm not going to cause any more
pain and I'm not going to have any more pain. You know. And it made sense to me. You
know. It did. At that time it made sense to me.

MT: Yeah.

FC: Now it don't, you know. But... (audible sigh)

MT: What are you most concerned about right now?

FC: Right now? My kids.

MT: Okay. What do you mean?

FC: Because they, I mean, they're on an emotional roller coaster ride right now. You know.
Being able to get them back on track and just let them know that mom’s not going to flip out
again. You know.

165

 

CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

MT: Yeah. Boy. that’s a big one.

FC: Mom's been flipping out so much here lately, it’s like, you know. So that’s the... 'Cause I
know MC... MC knows... I mean he can... I mean he’s been so strong and he know that
I’m trying, you know, but with the kids... They’re too young yet to really, you know, be able
to handle this all. So they’re my biggest worry right now. You know, how they're going to
come out of this emotionally. 'Cause I done it a lot. Definitely.

MT: Well. Gee whiz. Sounds like you’ve got some choices. You know. We can continue
meeting like this on Monday evenings at 7:00. You know, I’m available to you. And I think
that we can get some good things accomplished.

FC: Urn hmm.

MT: But, you know you said a few minutes ago, and I can really appreciate that too, that you
feel like you’re having to tell the story to everybody in the world —- psychologists and
psychiatrists. ..

F C: Yeah.

MT: It kind of hurts your brain after awhile.

F C: Yeah.

MT: And I think it is important that you find one or possibly two people that can kind of like take
a flashlight in the dark and say I think you need to be on this path over here.

FC: Yeah.

MT: 80 I'll let you to decide that. If you want to continue doing this. MC, I think it would be
terrific if you could be in here too for most of this. Because I think right now the
emphasis...

MC: Oh, I’ll be here all the time.

MT: Okay.

MC: That’s it we decide to come at all.

MT: Okay. Okay.

MC: Really what we need to do is get someone to talk to her kids right now.

FC: Would you be, I mean...

MT: Sure. Yeah. I talk with kids all the time.

MC: We promised to have a... You know, they want to know why we're coming here...

MT: Okay. You want to bring your kids and you --- the four of you -- your whole family?

FC: Orjust them. Whatever you think would be... Just the two kids by themselves, or just,
whatever...

MT: Yeah.

FC: However you think that it might be...

MC: That’s what they told us up at the hospital too. It’d be nice to...

FC: To let the kids be involved in this.

MT: I just don’t want the kids involved too soon. But if, you know, if your kids are starting to do
bad in school, or you're starting to notice behaviors that are really concerning you.

FC: Oh, (Son’s name) is, yes. Especially now.

MT: Okay. Let’s get the kids. If you guys decide to come back next time... Because if...

FC: Will you then... Like if I don’t have to... I mean like do I have to go see everybody else? I
mean, can you...

MT: FC, I think if you can get on a medication that will make you feel as normal, I think as MC
and I feel right now...

FC: Um hmm.

MT: 80 that you’re more rational.

FC: Because I do. I feel comfortable with you. I do feel comfortable. And I... Just like I said.
I’m just so tired of telling my whole story over and over.

166

 

CASE M1 TRANSCRIPTION

MT: I understand.
MC:And he knows more about it than anyone else.
FC: Yeah. But you don’t know everything

167

CASE M2 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: MC - Male Client, MT - Male Therapist, FC - Female Client

MC:

I’m not sure. I think more of a nececsity. I think um... It’s getting to the point where he’s
having problems with school and so forth so it’s becoming a necessity where before it
wasn’t... The necessity wasn't there so we stuck more probably to what your ideas were.

MT: Okay.

11
Q

Orlthinkmorebeforelwasdoingmostofthedecision—makingandhewaskindof
backgroundmore.

MT: Okay. Sowitl'isomeofthechallengeshe’spresentedatschool, it’skindofbroughtyou

ESBSBSES§

SE5

3
0

together in dealing with some of those things then.

:Wellit’sbroughtustogetherinthefactwetoknowsomethingneedstobedone.
: Okay.

:We’renotthatnecemrilytotathogetheronwheretogowithhimyet.

: All right. Sure. Yeah.

EspeciallynowbecauseMC’swith himmorethanlamwithmynewjob.

: Okay.

MC’sreallyhavingtogetahandleonsomestufilikethat. Sowereallyneedit.

: How'sthatworking? Foryou tospendmoretime with him thanyouhave been?
:ltworksfinewhenwe’redoingit. Ukeayearorsoagoshetookasecondjobforawhile

and like shewasworking nightsand (male child’s name) and I weretogether all thetime
andthatwasfineforthemostpart.

: When you’re with (male child’s name) and you’re dealing with (male child’s name) you get

along okay. You guys do fine?

: When it becomes regular. Yeah.
: Okay. WhenyougetadiancetogetreacquaiMedmdadjustedandngetthingsset

things up like you want it to be.

: Yeah.

MT: Now, how does that differ when you’re alone with (male child’s name), you’re one-on-one

S

fiéiéfififififi

withhiminequalsenseasopposedtowhenFC'saroundandyou'redealingwithhim?

: Well, hmmm, basically it probably just has to do with, you know, if she hasn’t been around

forawhileandwegetintoaroutinethenshealmostmessesuptheroutine. Notthatthat’s
aproblem,Mwhenshecomesinandflenandshedoesn’tseemtoeverwemtofdlow
throughwithwhatwe’ve alreadygotgoing.

Okay.

:Itwouldbelikeaproblem.

Okay.

:Ummm. Moresothanprobablythananythingelse. Andlgetirritatedsolkindofquit.

Youkindofbackoutofit?

Youdoit.

Youbackoutandyou kindofthnowitbackovertoFCthen.
Yeah.

Whenthathappens, howdoyourespondtothat?

168

FC:

i

i

5

85 $55

3% iii

CASE M2 TRANSCRIPTION

Ummm. Well, wually I’ll get angry and I’ll say, “No, that's not what needs to happen
here.” You knowljustneedto... It’seithersituationwherelcatchthetail endof
something and it’s something I don’t agree with or, or um I’m just having a conversation
with (male child’s name) and I don’t knorv that they‘ve already discussed something and
I’m telling him something else. And then if he does react like that I say, “Well fine, screw
it. I’m not doing this anymore.” Or whatever and then I’ll usually get angry and say,
“That‘s ridiculous. You know there’s no reason for you to react like that. I just didn’t knorv
whatwasgoing on.” And Ijust, you know, I needtobeabletotellyou horvl feel abort
what you’re doing with him when I see this or whatever.

: He’s going along and you kind of come in and acting somewhat in ignorance, not knowing

what’sbeengoingon,whatyouguyshavedealtwn‘th. Lackofknouledge. Notmeaning
you're stupid, FC, it’s just lack of knowledge, your lack of understanding what they've
agreed with and then MC’s perception is that its being changed.

: Well, it’s my perspective, but I think (gives name of male child #1) responds a lot better

wlen you’re consistent with him and so forth and then I, you know like you know it's just
thattheremight besomeplaceswhereit’sokaytoactacertainwayand other places
where it’s not. But he doesn’t understand the difference. So he’s pretty much trying to get
what he wants both places even if it’s not totally necessary, you knorv, all the time. But
that'swhenshegets madatmewhen shethinks I'm beingtoohardon himorsomething
like that. Gets irritated and she goes, “Fine!” Well, you know.."

Let me make a comment that’s kind of reflective of this conversation, this part of the
conversation. The fact that you summarized about 15 years of some major research that
wasdoneoncouplesattheUniversityof Denver. Andtheyspent big bucks, lotsoftime,
and a winole bunch of effort. And they kind of pulled all together. And what they've come
upwith ina nutshell isthefactthatthedifferencesareokay. But howyou handlethe
differencas is the issue. And, umm, that is the issue. How you handle differences in the
relationship. It is okay to be different. Is it okay for you guys to be different?

: That’s quite a compliment she gave you. Did you realize that?
:Ummm. Notreally. Well, Iguessshehassaidthatbefore, butnotquiteinthosewords

WMisthelevelofdependencyyouguyshaveononeanother? Howdoyoudependon
eachother?

Ahhhh...
Well,ldependonhimtohelpmeoutwith(malechild'sname)inmyworksituation. Idon't
knowsomuchaboutbeingdependentalthoughlum... Iamveryawrareummmthathe’s
extremelyimportantasa... Asmylife partnerorwhatever. You knolv, lwouldreally miss
having him there. Or just with the day-to-day things.

What... Maybedependencymingikeoneofdnsesomefimesnegafiveconnoatimsto
where...Or,orconnotationstoit. Maybeanotherwordlikeequality. Howdoyouguys
cooperate?

:lthinkmaybeweshouldkindofcooperatealittlemore.

Alright. Thatmaybetrue. Buthoivdoyoucooperate? Inwhatwaysdoyoucooperate?

:WdlwewopaatemMiereve’reheadedfinanddlyandoherbiggerissueswepretty

much cooperate on, I think

Okay.

We cooperate with our household responsibilities. We probably have to be reminded
abort the relationship.

Okay.

169

 

FC:

MT:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

FC:

MC:

MC:

FC:

FC:

MT:

MT:
MC:

CASE M2 TRANSCRIPTION

Seemslikeit. Wesplitthestuffupandweeachdoourpartinseparateareas. Idothe
bills and all the financial and he does all the remodeling and all the household stuff with
me.

On the opposite side of that, how do you experience, how would you describe your level of
independence? Your time. Your freedom from one another?

I don’t know I don't think...

Do you feel like you have any independence from me?

Not a lot. I don’t think we’re all that independent. I mean we’re independent... I don't
What do you think independent is? See, I feel completely independent. Norv, are you

defining independent as, you know, how often you go out with the guys?
: No

How are you defining it?
Our life I... I... our life is very dependent on each other, don't you think?
: Yeah.

You just said you feel very independent.
No, I mean as a person, I feel independent. I mean I have my ownjob and my orvn
friends. Just like you do. You know, things that you do outside the marriage

: That reflects, you know, a sense of you each have your own... Your own lives and you

have some social relationships that are separate from each other. Umm. But yet you still
are connected.

By the marriage and the relationship. But I don't feel we kind of, like I have in the past. I
mean I don't... sometimes like when he's in Iowa and I'm sure stuff's coming up in the
backyard, or I don't knorv what I’m doing with the lawn mower and I'm trying to ride the
tractor around that's when I feel like I need a husband. But for the most part I feel like I
could probably do pretty much anything if I had to and I have never felt like that.

When MC came in your life he did give you a lot of freedom. He didn’t start doing things
for you. You know, that may or may not have been a conscious choice on his part. But,
was there a conscious choice on your part somewhere along the way that said I'm going to
beindependent? I'mnotgoingtobesodependentaslwas.

What's surprising about it?

Well, I ahhhh... ‘Cause I don’t think we are. Ummm. Seems to me like a lot of times
when she starts getting like to arguing. I mean, or something. She starts getting her
exaggerating a lot and it gets to the point where Well... What she's discussing with me
doesn't make any sense any more. It's like we’re no longer dealing with... The issue’s
beensofarblownortofproportionorsornethingthatldon’tknorvhoutodealwithit
anymore.

MT: Does FC bring in other issues?

: Actually she... not too much.... She's pretty good at not. you know she complains about

me doing that quite a lot. But um not too much.

MT: Okay. You've nailed what for you guys is an important issue. To focus on the issue at

MC:

FC:

hand without bringing other things into it. That gets you sidetracked.

I think both. A lot of times I have problems even discussing it because I think she's ccrries
it so far that we no longer have a picture of what the problem is.

I think it's trying so hard. That it’s just the fact that it's something I feel strongly about and
then I'm going to, you knorv, go overboard with it because it‘s emotional to me.

What’s emotional about it? What’s, what's the emotion that you need to have met?

170

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FC:

FC:

535555535

FC:

5

333535 55.5

CASE M2 TRANSCRIPTION

Well, I guecs it would probably depend on the circumstances. Probably either hurt or
anger or something. I don't know.

: What’s the need that you have that causes you to get upset? That’s not being met?

Alotoftimesit’sjustthatheactslikehedoesn’tcarewhatlsaid.

: So for you the core thing is not being heard. If you were heard, and knewyou were heard,

thatwould takea Iotofthe heatout ofthiswholething. Howcan MC let you knowr? I’m
notasking you whetherit is rational or reasonableornot. But howcould he let you know
that you’ve been heard?

Probably just tell me.

:Giveyouthecuethatheheardyou.

Yeah. He should probably... One thing that I don’t like is, probably ‘cause of the way I was
raised, is I think it‘s really disrespectful if you’re not looking at somebody when they are
talking to you. And if he umm... He’s, you know, acting like he could ccre less about what
I’m talking about that implies to me that I’m not being head. Even if he's, you know, he’s
just sitting there like, ”Oh alright, I’m listening to you.:" I guess I would appreciate if he
could, you know, act like he's caring about what I’m talking to him about, even if it’s
something he’s heard six million times. You know, it’s something I need to get off my
chestorexprecsto him. It’simportantto me. Ifhecould, you know, Iookat meand
acknowledgethe fact, and then say‘Okay, I hearwhatyou’re saying and I understand
what you mean. It’s important to you”

: So his body language that says ‘I’m listening” or ”I’m not listening.”

Uh huh.

:Likejustthefactthathelooksornotlooks.

Uh huh.

: He’s sitting facing you at this point in time.

Uh huh.

: That’s important, isn't it?

Uh huh.

:WhathappenedinmepastwhenyouambeinglookedatMensoneoeistalldngmyou

oryouweretalking to someone. Whatisthatall abort?
Ohhhh. Wewereusually punishedwhenwewerenotlookingatmystep—dadwhenwe
talked to him.

:l'mnotsurelunderstand.

Well ifmydadwashaving conversationwithusasfarasareprimand orwhateverthe
situationmaybe. itwouldberepeatedoverandoveragain.

:Isityoucan’ttellher,oryoudon'twanttotellher,oryou’rehesitanttotellherbecauseof

wrhat reaction it might create?
Yes.

: Yes to all of the above?
: Yes. No it’s not. It’s... I.... It’s not that I can’t tell her. I don’t think that’s the main issue.

Asmuchasitisl’mhedtantofwhat’sgoingtohappenwhenltell her.
Sothere’saquestionofyorrsafety.
Yes.

: Do I risk saying this?

Beeause... Yeah.

Yeah but supposedly you said before that's why you’re upset because I’m not listening to
what you're wanting me to listen to in the past. And I'm not caring about your feelings that
you exprecstomeat somepoint.

171

 

MC:
FC:

FC:

MF:

FC:

MC:

CASE M2 TRANSCRIPTION

So why say it again and again and again and again?

Well, why sit there and live unhappy because I’m not doing something you want me to do
when I’m telling you I don’t know what the hell it is. You’ve got to tell me again. You just
like a It’s gonna get you nowhere every time you didn’t tell me. That would be more
frustrating for me than where I’m at. At least I know I express to you all the time and
you’re just not willing to do it or something else is going on. But with you I have no idea
and that drives me crazy. You know I’m willing to try to make things better but you won’t
tell me what it is that you need. And I’ve asked you six million times. And you won’t tell
me

: How can you each make it safe for each other? Are there times when you feel safe raising

questions? Raising issues?

Ummm. Idon’t know. Idon’t knowif it’ssafesomuchorjustalotofthings Ijustdon’t
bring up any more just because he gets so upset that it’s easier just not to discuss them. I
hope it’s not. I don’t think I ever felt a time when I could talk to MC about... Except it’s not
really safe except for I know if I bring it up he's going to ignore me or say nothing so I don't
bring it up.

Again I think you guys have a similarity here. You guys are experiencing the same thing
but you’re handling it differently. What I hear is that you’re both needing and wanting from
the other one. Acknowledgement of what you’re saying. That it’s important for me to hear
it. I’m not getting that. You’re not getting it fiorn FC when she keeps saying things over
and over and over. And you’re saying I’ve already said that. And you’re not getting it
when heshutsdown. Soyou’re both askingeachotterfortheverysamething. lsthat
true? You're saying, “Hear what I’m saying. Listen to me.” And you’re saying, “I need for
you to hear me. Listen.” It’s the same thing.

Um hmm.

:Sohowcanyougiveeachotherwhatyouneed? CanyougivethattoMC. Ifyouwereto

give him your ears without talking, just listening.

But it’s more than just listening. You know, it's actually acting on something. You know I
could sit here and listen to her all day. I'd like to see something resolved come out of that
talk. Rather than just have the talk again two days later. I’d rather see something
resolved during that talk and see something acted on it.

MT: Right. You’re right. There needs to be follow-through. But the first step is being able to

1.,
.Q

listen. Being able to hear. Right?
Um hmm.

MT: Then the next step is acting. FC, I’m going to make a very stereotypical statement. She

5% 5.33

probably doesn’t want you to do anything, per se. She probably just wants you to listen,
even if it’s listening to the same thing. Right?
Um hmm.

: You are a doer. A problem solver. Right? You’re a kind of You’re a get—it-done guy. If

there’s something here to fix, l’II fix it.

: Or at least make an effort.
: Sure. And you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing if you didn’t if you didn't have that kind

of respect in terms ofyour career. Your own profession. And that gets in yorr... In our
way of being able to relate to a female who really wants us to listen. Is that what it is?
Um hmm. I think so.

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CASE M2 TRANSCRIPTION

MT: Butontheotherhand,therearetimestoothatMCwantssomethingstobedonetoo.
That he’s asking for. That he needssomethings tobeacted on. Sowhen MC listens, and
againit’soneofthose... Whatdoyounwdtobeactedonrightnow? Whatdoyouneed
from meright now/2 lsthataquestion you could askeach other from time to time?

FC: Umhmm.

MT: If you could do it,doit. If you can’t, then youknowlreally wantdothat but rightnowl just
can’tdothat. I’mnotabletomeetthatneed,butlunderstandwhatyouaresaying. What
you’reaskingfor. Thatwayhecanknowthatyoucare. Okay? Iwishlcouldgiveyoua
magicone,two,three.

 

173

CASE M3 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: MC - Male Client, MT - Male Therapist, FC - Female Client

MC: Well, like I said, we didn't select any time and put a tag and title to it. This is like you know
some special hour or something. It just... Things were just going along, or moving

MT: Okay.

MC: Without any, you know, interruptions or any disagreement or disapproval or anything. And
Sundayeveningwespent mostofthetimetrying to pumpthewateroutofthepool cover
andthat’showmostthetimewasspent.

MT: Okay. Ummmm, what’s the last time the two of you did something together that you really
enjoyed?

MC: I can’t think of one.

MT: FC, how about you?

FC: When we went to Washington?

MT: How long ago was that?

FC: Three years.

MT: Three years ago. That’s the last time you can remember doing something?

FC: He doesn’t like to do anything.

MT: Okay, well fromyourperspective?

FC: So we don’t do anything. So there’s nothing to remember.

MT: Soyou haven’t like gone out to dinner and had a good time, or...

MC: We do that. It’s just... I just... I don’t think it’s all that wonderful or memorable or has a
lasting impression on her. We just can’t do that that often.

MT: Um hmm.

MC: (lnaudible)

MT: Okay.

MC: Likelasttime, you know. You remember. Wewentortfordessertatsomefancy
reoaurant in Okemcs.

FC: That was nice.

MT: Hoard that 90?

MC: All right.

FC: All right.

MT: Does your relationship serve any purpose besides just um the utility of being married.
What I mean lsthat, do you feel matinyourrelationshipyou reallygettoenjoyeachother
as individuals, as social people. Ummm who like to do things together. Or do you just
kind ofcomehorne, dowhatneedstobedoneathome becauseyou haveto livethere.
Goto work. Come home. Goto work. Come home. But very little interaction between.
Andwhatinteractionyoudohaveisrelatedtoworkorrelatedtosomethingwiththehoee.
or... What kind of relationship do you basically have?

MC: Badcally that.

FC: Lately that’s what I like to have.

MT: Okay. So why do you like to have that kind of relationship?

FC: Because anything else seems to make him mad. He yells at me if we do anything else.
Try to do anything else.

MT: Doyoudoa lotofyelling?

MC: No. Disagree, but no. The yelling part comes after some conversation.

MT: And does it like escalate or...

174

CASE M3 TRANSCRIPTION

MC: Yes. l‘m terribly frustrated. Many little things just sets me off. Mostly everything gets sad
or depressing or negative. Nothing to the future, nothing’s gonna change that. Nothing to
look, wait and see things. Everything‘s bleak.

MT: For you?

MC: No. Her response. Her response comes in the form of all those and l'm just... l'm very
tired of it.

MT: Okay, that’s FC's responses.

MC: Right.

MT: Okay. How do you feel? You don‘t feel things are bleak? Or do you feel the same way?

MC: No. I think I have a very rough time kwping my head straight. And not to have that mode
of thinking.

MT: Okay.

MC: l'm having a much difficult time coping with her or any dealings with it.

MT: Okay. Sometimeswhen people are depressed orwhen people are stressed... And you
may find that you do this to some degree... Some people do it more than others... But
when you're stressed or under a lot of pressure or when you’re depressed you tend to not
want to do things that require a lot of thinking. Or things that require a lot of planning and
preparation. Or things that, you know, making decisions that have any long-term
consequences. And the reason is, is bewuse that when... Kind of a way to protect
yourself from getting into trouble and making a decision that may be to costly when you
don't feel you've got all your faculties together for thinking. That you just kind of go around
to another level where there are simple things to deal with. You know, simple tasks. You
know you ssn clan the house bewuse you know how to vacuum the floor and dust and
you know all the routines and it doesn't really require anything. You can just do that. And
that's all there is to it. And you avoid, you know, tackling problems
that might lead to conflict. Because, you want to avoid conflict. So you just stick to what
you feel is safe. So sometimes when people are depressed, they just sen move into that
way of thinking. They want simple things. They want, you know, just a very narrow focus.
They don't want to do long-term planning. They don't want to tackle any heavy issues.
Does that seem like it hits home for your view?

MC: Yeah.

FC: I know what you mean about that. I do. And l’m aware enough of that. That’s would not
be the reason why l’m upset. I mean it's a little bit upsetting and everything, but he literally
satthereandwatchedmepackandwatchedmemoveand promisedmethathewould
help me unpack. And then he's watching me do that again. And I think no matter what my
frame of mind was, that would really really bug me.

MT: Right. But how do you cope with that? How do you get over that? Either you confront
somebodyaboutthatandthencometoasolution, arriveatsomekindofsolution. Ordo
you...

FC: I can't arrive at a solution by myself.

175

v—

CASE M3 TRANSCRIPTION

MT: That'swhat I'm saying. You‘re feeling that there is just, between the two of you, there‘s so
much anger that you're not to a point where solution is... Whereyou're finding a solution
and putting a band-aid on. This over here is not going to save something from happening
over here. You're still going to have to put band-aids all over the place. And then that’s
not even going to be a very solid structure. Ummm so... And I can understand, and I've
heard you say many times how very angry you are about the move and everything related
to the move. And I've heard MC say that he has some anger about the move and how he
feels it was handled and like I said before, last week when we made the... I, you know,
showed you the different levels of communicating and the meaning that things have. That
probably had a lot beneath it besides just the move itself and how it was handled. There's
probably a lot more there... Trust in each other, thinking about your future plans together,
things like that have not even been
touched on. And l’m wondering if I were to chart how you feel about your relationship
today, I would imagine your feelings are pretty low compared to what they were Friday. Is
that accurate?

FC: Yeah.

MC: (lnaudible)

MT: That's not necessarily to be considered bad. Or contrary to what we're trying to do. I
assume there will be setbacks. But it probably seems like every time you go up a little bit,
you go further down or you're always down and you still haven't gotten to a point yet where
you're feeling very comfortable with your relationship. And, when's the last time you have
had a break from each other? When you've been separated from each other?

FC: A couple weeks?

MC: Just for one week?

MT: But other than that you haven't had any space from each other and the move certainly
made you feel very close to somebody bewuse you’re practically on top of each other
trying to find things and, you know, all that. Before that time, when was the lag time
you’ve been separated from each other?

MC: Probably two weeks prior to that. Two weeks prior to that.

MT: So other than that you've only spent like a few days or a week apart from each other, other
than let's say a weekend or a business trip or something.

FC: I know he had to go away in September for a couple of nights and then... And then just...
You haven't gone anywhere, have you?

MC: Just that.

MT: Hmmm. Your situation is kind of such that you don't have very much opportunity to get
space from each other when you need it. Since you don't have a lot of family up here and
I don't know how old your... How close you are to your friends... If you're able to go visit
thernormaybestayvviththern. Butwoulditbepossiblethatyou mightgetsornespace
fromsachotherlikespendingaweekendawayoracoupledaysawayfromeachother?

FC: Um humm.

MT: What do you think, MC? Is that a good idea? Do you think it would be possible?

FC: Yeah.

MC: I don't know whether that would be helpful or not, but I’d welcome that.

MT: Pardon?

MC: I don’t know whether that would be helpful or not but I’d welcome that.

MT: Okay. You'd welcome a break. How about you?

FC: Idon‘t care.

MC: That's the routine. She goes to sleep in five minutes.

176

CASE M3 TRANSCRIPTION

MT: Okay. Well find somethingthatyoubothlikeandbewilling to compromise. Just simple

musicselection. Okay? lfyousandottetJhenyoucanjustputalittlecheckmarkinthat
box andsaythat’soneweaccomplished. Okay?

FC: That’sthe pointwherewe’re at.

MT:Whydoyousaythat?

:lt’sprettypatheticwehavetobeproudofagreeingonacassette.

:Well, given what you said already that you’ve been disagreeing about quite a fewthings...

: Yeah, you’re right.

:You have to start counting little things. 4

: Ijust neverthoughtofthatone. You’re right, though.

:Andno. It’snotentirely pathetic because it’s just isawayof whittlingdownatthat barrier
betweenthetwoofyou. ThatbarrierismadeupofaIotofangerandallthatstuffinthe
pasthowever long thishasbeen going on. Okay. Soifwehavetowhittleitatiny pieces
atatime,we’lldothat. Wecandothat. Andifyoucen’tagreeonthemusic,oneperson
pickthemusicgoingthereandonepersonpickthemusicgoingback. Andevenifone
falls asleep,youstill listen toitbecausethat'sacompromise. Okay? If you’re willingtodo
thatforherand she’s willing to do... If you’re willing to listen tohermusicononeway,
she’llbewillingto listen toyoursontheother. Okay? lfyoucandothat.... Thenit’s
something you can do. Okay? Andifyou can orchestrate getting sornetimeawayfrorn
eachotherthisweekend,andtrytohaveagoodtime. lfthat'spcssibleJlendoit. Maybe
thatwillbringustoabetterpointwhenyoucomenextweekandwecansitdownandroll
upour shirtsleevesalittlebitfurther thanwedid tonight. Okay?

Sowe’renot... Not... Notusingtheskillsthatyoulearnhere. Soyoucanstarttakingthis
stuffhome. Andworkingonit. lsthatpcssible?

FC: Whichpart?

MT: Allofit.

FC: Do you feel that?

MC: Yeah, it’s possible.

MT:Andyou,FC?

FC: Idon't know. We neverseeeachother.

MTzYeahbutyoudon’thavetohavetoseeeachother. You’renotatthepointofbetweennow

andthenexttime. lthasnothingtodown'thseeingeachother.

FC: Butyou saidabouttakingthingshomeandvorkingonthem overthe...

MT: Butthat‘safternextmek
FC: Okay,soalllhavetodoisgetaway?

MTzAllyouhavetodoisgetawayfromeachother.

FC: lcsndothat.

MT: lfywcandosoneconstmdivenoseeingeachotherasopposedtonotseeingeach

otheroravoidingeachother, let’sdoitconstructively if you’re going todoit. Make sense?

FC: Ithink.

535833

177

MT:

MT
FC:
MT

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:
MC:
MT:
MC:
MT:

FC:

MT:

CASE M3 TRANSCRIPTION

Okay, I really went to pursue... Have you finish for me the stuffthat you first started when
you came in and then I've got the Marital Satisfaction Inventory which is going to take
you about maybe a half hour to finish. And I really want you to do that... Sol can start...
Like I say, that's the one measure that will tell you exactly what areas you’re having the
most difficulty. And I can chart for you where you’re both at on things like trust and where
you are in different areas of the relationship. I can plot that for you. And then we sari
monitor our progress and see which area you’re both going in opposite directions. If we
workonsornethingsandyoustartcomingdownalittlebitandmaybestartgoingthesame
direction. Okay? So you an do that next time if you want. If you’ll come in like maybe a
halfhoureartynextTuesday. Andthen l wanttogetsomeinformation from youabout
your families so we can work on this... This is salted a genogram, by theway. This is the
beginning of a genogram. A genogram’s kind of like a family

: a family tree. You've probably each seen family trees before. A genogram’s actudly a

biological... It’s a model if you’re tracing hereditary traits and things like that in a family.
Butweuseita little bit differently. lwenttobeabletoplotoutbothofyourfamiliesand
lookforareaswhere maybethewaysthatyou feel andthewaysthatyouthinkactually
didn’t startwithjust you. It probably come up heresornewhereorwith your parentsoryour
grandparents or somewlere in your family of origin. Okay? And because you, FC, just
didn’tdeddeonedaythatyouweregoingtobeaprettyorganized personwhen itcornesto
moving. You just didn’t decide that. That probably same somewhere from your family
and, like you said, you’ve got this ethic from your family that you work first and play later.
So that’s important to keep track of. And l’m sure MC has some things up here from his
family we could talk abort. So when we put these things on the table like work first and
play later and if MC has something from his family that is totally the

opposite, play first and work later, then we need to work around that thing. We need to
start discussing that How we put that idea of his family in with your idea of your family,
mdconetosoneagreememsoyouguyscangetmvwfliyoulwesvdflrhowyouwork
and play. Okay?

:Sothat’swherewhenyousayyouaregoingtoColumbus, you...

Ohio. I used to live in Ohio.

: Okay. What year... Any major-like health problems or anything like this of your family

members?

No.

And I seeyougotonherewhatonesaremanied.

Right.

And I see you’ve got on here married... You’ve got...

My rnorn’s remarried.

All your brothers and sisters are single.

Right.

Especially the 10 and the 4-yea-olds.

Yeah.

Ummm. And everyone in your family is married except (sibling name)?
Yeah.

Okay. Let’s see. So you met each other in June of... What year again?
1992

1992? Where did you meet?

Columbus.

How did you get down to Columbus?

178

CASE M3 TRANSCRIPTION

FC: lgotajobthere.

MT: Okay. And then how did you end up in Columbus?

MC:Igotanassignment there.

MT: And, umm, you got married...

FC: June 3rd.

MT: 613/92. ln Lansing?

FC: Um hmm.

MT: Okay. Seewhat l’m doing uphereis l’m making time line. l’m puttingwhenyou guys first
metandgotmarriedtotoday. And l’mgoingtoaskyoudomeafavor. Thatistodothe
sarnekind of thingonyourownw'rthyourown lives. Nowyou’re... You’re going to start for
yourindividual liveswithyour birth. Andthencorneupto now. Butthenatsomepoint
afteryoutakeabreakandweseeeachother, l’llhaveyousitdomanddoingatimeline
whenyouguysfirstmettonow. Okay?

FC: Whatkindsofthingsdoyouwantonthem?

MTzAnythingyouwanttoputonit. lfyouwanttoputonyour... Ummmeventsoryou
graduated from high school andwentto college, came tothe United States, gota job in
Columbus, oran assignment in Columbus, whatever. Any moves that you made, any
major events, you can talk abort your parent’s lives or your family’s lives. Whatever you
wenttooutintherethatisimportanttoyou. Okay? l’mgoingtocopythisandthenhave
youtakethiswithyousoyoubothspendalittlebitoftimefillingout Youdon’thaveto
smndmorethansay150r20minuteson it. Makesureyou bring it.

MC:You startitwhen?

MT:Whenyouwerebom. Tothatpresenttimewtenyouarefillingitort. Okay? Canyoudo
that? Maybeinthecar. And,youknow,justbychanceifthetwoofyougetboredor
something,andyoudcn’tgotodeepyouventandtryandtacldewhat’shappenedtoyou
since the time youmetto now, you’re certainly welcome totryto that, but I don’t expect
youto. Okay? Sotheplanistogetsomespacefromeachotherthisweekend. Afteryou
of course have traveled a great distance in the car together. To get some space. And
thenlhavenothadanysallsbackonpeoplelhavetriedtogetaholdofforyoufor
psychiatrists, but I wastold that becauseofthe holiday it’s really difficult togetanybodyto
doanythingbecausemostlytheyareortoftom. Solwillkeeptrying. Whenyougo
downtoColumbus,isthereisanychancethatyoumightbeabletotryandhcokupwith
thedoctoryousawthere?

FC: ldidn’t see anybody there.

MT: Tha’sright. ltwasinNowJersey,right?

FC: Um hmm. But he's moved to California now. Sothere’snot much chanceof seeing him.

Mr: Okay. Sonextweek,sametime?

FC: Youwantuseartlertotake tests.

MT: Yes. Cornein... lfyorwanttocornequarterafter,7:30,anywmerein there. That should
giveyouplentyoftimetoflllthatout.

179

 

CASE M4 TRANSCRIPTION

Key: MC - Male Client, FC - Female Client, MT - Male Therapist

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

You just say whatever. You just kind of get going. And then it's the beginning of the
week. And then you slip back into your routine. But there was no routine. A routine
never developed last week. And that wasjust...

For you.

For me. No.

See I don't need routinesthat much. Asyousantell. llikernorespontaneous.
Spontaneous lifestyle.

Anywayswhat happened isshehadbeenstayingoutand l was. Iwasgetting upwith
her at night. But I didn’t really want to. And that um... then Saturday, was it Saturday?
Friday, right? It started then ‘cause I was working Saturday. I was going to work
Saturday morning.

Doing what?

: Um... lwasframing houses.

Framing houses? Oh.

:lwentandframedanddidalittlebitofwork. Andsoljustnaturallyassumedthatvell

sincelwasworkingthenextday,FCwouldtakecareofher. Youknow,ifshewashaving
troublethatnight. Butitdidn'tworkoutthatway. Andlgotkindof....
Andthatvaswhatthefightwasabout?

: Year. I got resentful and made left-handed, snippy remarks and instead ofjust coming

out and saying... You know Whatever.
Whatyou meant.

:Oreveninsteadofjustsayingwhydon’tyoujusttakecareofthebaby‘causel’vegotto

worktomorrow. Andshejusthadthis Madesornerernark. Oneofthernwaslikeyou
knowwhatyousaidyouwantmetogetuporsomething likethat. And I saidwell I didn’t
wanttodrag yourmoutofbed.

No, you said if you can drag yourself out of bed...

I said something.

So you had an attack of guilt. One of those guilt trips.

: Well,see,myperwfionofitwasthm...
:Anyway,sheyelledatme. But...
:Myperceptionofitwasthathevasupanyvaybeceuseweventtobedlikerightassoon

aswehadgotten home. ltwasaboutelevenandlwentrighttobedand(babyname),
shewokeupaboutanhourlater. Sol’dalreadybeeninbedsleepingandhewasstill up.
Soitdidn't make sense...

: Well, not only that...

ltdidn’t makesenseformetogetupwith herwhen hewasstill up. Seewhatl mean?
Andthenhedidsaywell, FC, you’reprobablygoingto havetotakecareofherbesausel
have to goto bed. Well, lwasjust kind of expecting that he would say... you know.
bring hertobedandthenhecangetin bedandlwould havetakenover. Butthenthat
comment really made me mad because itwas saying... You knowlwake up anywhere
from3-5timesa nightwith herevery nightforthelast5 monthseversince she’sbeen
born. Ever since she’s been with us. And I didn’t feel like that was balanced... That
wasn’t fair of MC. Sol was really ticked. And he said that l breached... That I made a
breach in our relationship. I sailed him an asshole. I’ve never called him that before, but
I was I was really ticked. I mean I don’t want to say that you made me call you that,

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She just wanted... You thought since he was up he might as well be taking are of her
and you thought since you were supposed to be working tomorrow she should take ssre of
her.

Yeah.

So you’re both pissed off at each other... Upset. You were throwing your left-hand
curved ball and you're coming back with anger.

Yeah.

Well, yeah after that happened. Before that... I mean I would have gotten up. It's just
that I’d already been sleeping and you know I was exhausted after working a week and it's
hard to... I figured you were up. And I didn’t know that you were getting ready for bed.
So how‘d you... How did this get resolved?

I went to work.

And then when he same home I just said that i felt that that was a very unfair comment
for you to make beseuse... You know bewuse I get up with her every night many times a
night and didn't think that’s fair.

Um humm.

Basisally he apologized. And then I apologized. And that's it.

You think so?

Yes. I think so. It’s easier to see.

But when you first started dating...

I said, ‘Man, I can’t stand that woman. I’ve got to have her.”

Yeah. No matterwhatthey do. Seems like no matterwhat they do, you seethegood
things.

Oh well. See he's honest.

: And seems like as the relationship keeps going and going you see the bad things instead

of the good things.

See I think our relationship is better than when we were dating. We didn't have a very
easy courtship. I was jealous about all his friends.

Tell us about how it’s better.

Well, I guess it’s not.

Well of course we know we're each other‘s friends. We know more about each other and
everything and the background and where we’re coming from. So like we don't have that
trying to drag things out of him that you have to drag out four years ago.

Uh huh.

You mean there‘s more comfort in the relationship?

Yeah.

: Trust. More trust.
MT:
MC:
: What else is better?

What else do you think?
What else is better?

I don't know. For awhile though there... Things got really bad and we're still... Before
we started coming here. So it was real good for awhile and then it got really really bad
and then it's getting better.

: Hmmm.
MC:

We can think of two things that turned better.
Well, what's better for you?

: Hmm. You're not as um....
MT:

Psst. You are more...

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: No. She probably... Butlhaven't said that.

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: No, it's true.
MC:

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: I though it was very distracting.

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: Well, l’m sorry what did you say?
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CASE M4 TRANSCRIPTION

Huh?
You are more...
Oh, you’re not as... You're more... Okay....

Say it again.

I have a certain amount of phrasing problems too. Or else forget it. You're... l have to
rephrasethewhole thing. Aw it's just you‘re more trusting and seeming less fearful of
whatever. You'd get upset. You'd just... You didn't seem like you trusted me.

I was always testing you?

: Ysah.

I don't know what to say about that.
Sowhatweresomesignsthatshewastrustingyou more?

Ah there's more. what do you call ‘...em Subliminal... I don’t know. It’s not as overt.
Not overt. Not glaring signs. Just little things, you know.

Do you know some of them?

No?

Doesn't seem like she... Whenwe first weredating it seemed like I always had towatch
out to not look at other... Look at women. Other women. 'Cause she was always... You
could tell... She was always kind of on the lookout for it.

‘Cause you did. You did.

: Ah that’s right.

That's how I told you off a few times.
Well, I never said I didn’t.

But it doesn't... She don't feel like... It doesn't seem like she is... Since we've been
married and stuff it doesn't seem like she's... Standing over me like that. you know.
Well, you remember how that went about. I didn't want to dig up the past but basically I
told you how I felt about that.

Uh huh.

But ah, at some point you just get tired of just trying to ignore... That’s like before my
ignoring comes in. You know where I just pretend like he’s not even there.

: Ummm. So it’s the way you're trying to say, "He's down. I still want to stay up."

Yeah.

: And it’s difficult for you.

Yeah, it is.

: So when you're feeling happy and he's feeling down, when you just go on with your day

and it's a great day for you, you're saying, you know whatever you're doing, it's a great
day. l‘m wondering what that would be like?
Well first of all I sent be there. I can't be at home much of the week.

: Uh huh.

That's all there is to it.

: What doyou imagine would happen though ifyou stayed there?

It takes a lot of energy just to ignore him, you know.
He's not asking you that.

l'm just wondering what you see as happening.

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CASE M4 TRANSCRIPTION

If I stayed there? I don’t think it’s very effective. I mean it’s hard for me to... Like I say,
it takes a lot of energy to do that so it’s not as effective if I stay there.

: So FC's saying your mood affects hers.
MC:
MT:
MC:

Uh huh.

I’m wondering if her mood affects you?

l’m trying to think of whether there’s been an incidence. It think there has. Yeah, I think
that they bounce off each other. And ah... React. ‘Cause I'll be in a fairly decent mood
and she'll come home cranking about this or that. And complaining about, seemingly to
me, insignificant things we don't have a lot of control over.

:Soyou both bringeachotherdown. Canyou bringeachotherup?
MC:

Have we ever tried?

I tried tremendously. It's very hard to try to affect your mood and bring you up. Many
many many many many times.

It doesn't work very well.

So I gave up.

: Sometimes you'rejust persistent. Y0u just want to be in a bad mood.
MC:

Um hmm. l‘m down. Stubborn that way. To a fault. I can't... I don't think that I ever
played the reverse role. No. I don't think I've ever, you know (inaudible). It's a lot easier
to make me feel stupid probably.
Idorernernberoneinstancenottoolongagowhenltoldyouthatlwashavingabadday.
And you... You seemed like you had a nice, you know, supportive way about you that
was very rare and nice. And I don‘t know if you just kept giving me a hug or something...
Or maybe said just a couple words or whatever, I don't remember exactly what they were.
But I rernemberitwasreally niceand itwasprobablyoneofthefirsttimesthatyou'd ever
done that.

Just recently?

Yeah.

Hmmm.

And, it's always was nice to feel that you have somebody who you... Who's your
emotional reserve, you know what I mean. Or can kind of help you. In times when you're
not having such a good time.

Yup.

That isn’t something I felt I had often in this relationship.

Me too.

I remember...
What?

: I remember what day you were talking about.

Well tell me what it was then. 'Cause I don't remember the details.

Oh, I don't know. You hadaharddayatworkorsomething. And ljustaskedyou ina
supportive manner. And I can't tell you what I said or what I did, but outside of that I
remember what you’re talking abort though, okay. I don't remember what day of the
week it was but...

lsaid maybe l’m kind of hard on you when it comes to that besause l‘m kind of tired of
hearing it. You know, and I might say well you know if you think you're a loser, you're
gonna believe you’re a... You know if you keep saying it, you're gonna believe it.
What‘s going on for you, MC, right now?

Just wondering what time it was.

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' Oh.

Doesn't look like any of us have watches

That's right. Well we’ll just be here till it's five o'clock. When she's saying those things to
you right now, what's that like for you? Record the emotion. What's the word for it?

I don't know if there's any emotion involved. I mean I've heard it before. And it's all very
valid, but it’s just doesn't seem... It’s never been that easy just to start saying well I'll just
change what you think. I just won’t do that anymore. I just don't do that.

: You mean, "Just say no."
MC:

Right. That's...
You don't think it's possible?

: I don't think it's that simple. If it was that simple, l'd would have done it.

Well...

That’s like saying, 'Well just go change your socks."

Well, l'm kind of speaking in a sense of I've been through that myself, you know.
Bewuse I've not always had good self-esteem.

That’s true. You’ve told me that.

And it's a method of thinking that is different than the “well I can't probably do that
because..."

: It’s proactive.

I don’t even knowwhat it's called. I mean like I say I've read about it. I've, you know,
Ieamed some of it in my service training. Ummm. You know where you say to yourself...
Like say for instance I would sometimes have trouble with authority and I would feel real
insignificant or feel like really nervous about my abilities or something. And ummm one
of the ways that I would get through is just tell myself. you know, you're experienced in
your job, you, you know, have parents that love you, you have a husband that loves you.
You know, just things like that. And then I would immediately benefit from that. And it
would carry me through. And as a result of that l have been able to achieve greater
sense of self-esteem and self-confidence and a better feeling about myself just because I
continuously thought things through. That, okay, no you're not, you know, insapable.
You've done this. You've done that. You’ve done that. You know what I mean? So
there's something to that. There's something worthwhile in that. But this continual feeling
you know, well nobody wants me because I can’t find ajob and, you know, l'm a loser
and, and, you know doing things that you know make you feel bad and then feeling worse
about them because you did it. Like staying in bed or whatever. But if that makes you
feel worse. Get ort of bed. You knowwhatl mean? Now I've been depressed before, so
I know what it feels like to be depressed. I mean it's not that easy. Ummm...

: Can I stop you?
: Yeah.

Is this helpful for you?

Somewhat.

‘Cause I want to get back to what's gonna be helpful for him. Because it seems like you
want him to be able to come to you. Or is that not it?

: Well, he doesn’t need that. He doesn't need to come to me nwessarily. He can go to

anybody. I mean I would like to know how he's feeling and, you know, for him to ask me
for support or some advice or something.

Or at least confide in you?

Yeah. I’d like you to confide in me. But I can't handle this all the time -— this l'm a loser
bit. It makes me very nervous.

CASE M4 TRANSCRIPTION

MT: So we’ve really got a dilemma here. Okay? You’re sick of hearing his complaining about
whatever and san’t find a job forever and he's feeling down. And when you’re feeling
down, that's, I mean, some of the things that you go through. And it‘s hard to talk about
things. I mean l’m not sure, but that how your strategy of doing it. Of being down and
maybeeven getting ortof it istotalkabort itinthatway. Butshe’soverheresaying l’m
not really... I don’t really want to hear it.

MC: Uh huh.

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Ksy: MC - Male Client, FC - Female Client, MT - Male Therapist

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85555

I told you once.

You told me twice.

I told you once. You asked once. You were outside or on your way out the door.

And I toldyou l was mad. Whycouldn’tyou havedonethattohelpmeort? Sowhy
couldn’t you have dove that to help me ort?

Ahhh... l have no... I have no excuse.

Doyou seewhy.. What made me angry?

Yas.

Kindoflikeifyouweregetting readytogotoworkandyou hadtotakethekidaloigwho
just pooped in herpants. And I setonthecoucheating myceealwhileyou’rewatching
the time go. So...

That was just today, or...

That doesn't justify it. Yeah, that was this morning. And the last few days have been
rough because, like I said, the kids have been sick... I haven’t slept more than four and a
halforfive hours a night. One’s crying... And, you know, it'sjusttheway it’s been.
Yeah.

You know. Every night l'm like okay I'm going to get six hours of sleep uninterrupted.
Being, you know, being a mom. That’s just how you live your life. When you get straight
sleep, itsureisnice. Afterabout4or5daysofthatinterruptedstufflstartbeing really
crabby.

: lbetcha. Sleepdeficiencydoeswriorsthingstothebody.

Yeah. It's been hot. The stupid van is not working again. I took the carwhich has air
conditioning which is a plus.

: Ahhh.

You know. Andthenwemadean agreementbesausetotryand make his lifeeasierl let
him drop (female child #1’s name) off in the morning to the Y. Then I pick her up in the
afternoonon mywayhone. Whichshedoesn’twanttogetpicked uptill4z15myway
because they're having a snack and swrim till 3:30 or 3:45. So anyway, ummm, but I’ve
ban picking her up which is... From the timel leavework, it akes me an hourto get
hone. Because I gogetthelittleonesatdaycare. Which isnotfun. You knowhowitis
And this and that. And they're, 'Monmie, monmie.“ and it’s just kind of a maul session
anddrag ‘emoutthedoor. You know, andall that. ThenwegotheYandwe'rethere
another 20-25 minutes. We have to look at the pool and go upstairs and do all this crap.
And then by the time I get hone, l’m just like cooked! The whole day is didn’t bother me
tilllgotthekidsandanhorrwothofgettingthemhome,youknow. Andlgethomeand
it's time to cook dinner immediately because like he’s gonna be leaving

for work. And he ain’t been sleeping much and so he's dragging around like a zombie
when I get hone. Bitching about stuff he didn’t get to get done because he slept too long.
And, you know. That’s kind of what it’s like all the time.

:Whyis... Whyhasitbeendiffererrtthelast coupleweeksthough?

Idon't know.

:What'stheproblem?
:Wasittwomksagolventtoiflhours?
: Yeah. Hewasworking 10 hoursandthatwasjust.... Incredible.

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CASE M5 TRANSCRIPTION

That was ummm... I'd have to leave the house about quarter to seven or seven—fifteen
and ummm it was a long week. I drag in around 8:00. I have to get some sleep. So the
kids have to play outside.

Don‘t feel guilty. They play. It’s in the morning that gets ungodly. When it’s this hot, they
don’t even wait to be ortside.

I’ve been real busy the lad couple weeks. A lot of commitments and this and that we had.
l’vebeenverytiredthelad liketwoweeksasfarasl get50r6 hoursofsleepandwhen I
wake up like l'm even more tired after I’ve been up for an hour. Usually an hour after l’m
up l’m feeling good and lately it seems like I get worse. Then the kids come home and it’s
like well we gotta play now and stuff. And l’m like, you know, I want to sleep. So I'll sit on
the couch and sit on the chair. I’m not dong anything. And, ummm, FC's tone of voice the
last... Which is understandable, but there's like a thing in my ear and it just hones in on it.
Like you finger on a chalkboard or sonething. So... I just kind of sit back and wait for her
to, you know, jump on me abort something l’m not doing or something I should be doing
bemuse I'm tired. And she’s gonna let me have it, you know. l’m like I’m gonna say I’m
tired. And she’s gonna say well that’s no darn excuse, you know? And it's like I... I avoid
situations because in my mind I

haveajudified remonforit. But I knowahead oftimethatshe’snotgoing toacceptthat
reason. You know what l’m saying?

: Is it like that becorseyou’re not getting enough sleep?

It’sjustbeenall the

: You can’t blame it on sleep though.

No. ‘Cause we’ve done with a lot less.

: l’lI avoid situations because I've been in situations before, you know? Arguments or

conversationsorl’vetriedtobeastnrthfulaslcan. Ortrytogetmypointacrossthebest
waylknowhowandit’snotthatshedown'tbelieveme,butit’sjustnotgoodenoughor
something.

That’snotwhylwentoutside Whylwentoutsideisbecauselwanttohaveacigarette.
Solcouldcomeinthehouseandhaveashowerandgetreadyforbed.

You seemed mad. You were mumbling on your way out the door.

Areyou sayingyou thoughtthat he overreacted to that situation?

Well... Yeah, inaway. lmeanhedid andhedidn’t.

: In my mind I probably did.

Yeah. He got mad. I could tell. I can... See, just like he knows when l’m mad. I know
when you're mad. It's like the way you get up and... You know, you don't even have to
say anything. How you walk or, I mean...

: Idood up. Igotuptogoortside. Ihadtogetready, but

Well...
Or...
Yed'l, but you were pissed.

: I didn’t yell a the kids.

No.
I didn’t grorch around. I didn’t yell at you. I just kind of tried to make my way through the
horse and go ortslde and have a cigarette. And you‘re like mad...

: You got mad because he was mad.

No, no. Ididn't get madathim. ljud... Inoticedthathewas...

Okay.
How should I handle the situation?

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CASE M5 TRANSCRIPTION

I think he... Well, see this...

loverreactandhaveashortfuse.

What you tend to do... What I see is that I feel you have been... Well, you know, me too.
I had my monents this week. But, you don't seem to tolerate the kids very well. Like
whenweget homeandyou’re in thegarageorsomething. Likeyesterdayortheday
before, or whatever. It's hot and you’re dirty and you’ve bwn working ort there. And the
kids come home and it’s, “Daddy, Daddy, Daddy." And all this stuff’s going on and when
l’m home 5 minutes and you’re yelling because you’re whatever. You know.

: l’m yelling?
: Well, it’s like, “Go do that. Get over here" You know, and stuff like that. And then l’m in

the house for 3 minutes and it’s, “FC.” You know, like I’ve left him out there in the lion’s
den. ”Come and rescue me.”

:Soyoudon'tordinarilywhenyougethomeyoudon’tbring‘eminthehouse?

Right.

:Gettheirdinners. Goort. Dragthernin.

Yeah.

: You want them in the house for dinner. So I bring “em in.

Yeah. When we get home it's almost time for dinner. So?

And usually when (female child #Q’s name) gets home and the garage door’s open, she’s
right in there.

Yeah.

You know, trying to kill herselfon a bike orgetting strollers out, you know, and so...
Well, we admitted to being very impatient.

:Icallthekidsinthehousearidsay"hi'orwhatever.

Impatient. We try to analyze ourselves.

:lgotanewlawnmower

l’m tired. Tired.

:lgotausedlawnmower. lgotdosoneswitchingaround. lgotagrillforfather’sdaythatl

gotthebasepartiallyassembled. You know, and it’s like, lguessaborta halfan hour
today, a half hour tomorow, a half hour day after tomorrow. I told FC today. I said, "Well
maybe by Sunday.”

That irritates him by no means.

: I said, “Maybe by Sunday.”

He’sthe kindofguythatwmtstodartajobandfinish ajob. lcanjudseethehairon his
backstandingup.

: I told her today. I says, “Maybe by Sunday I’ll have the grill finished.” And she says,

“Well, I talked to the lady at the store and she said some dumb kid could do it in a hour.”
Oh, okay. l'm being conpared to a kid jud got out of high school and put a grill together.
Go clean the back yard up. But that’s...

Ididn’t nean it like that. lwasjud seyingthat I asked the lady...

:Again,whatwouldyouthink? Youbuyagrillandyouworkonitforhdfhoureveryother

dayforaweekandthmummopeyouhaveitdonebySunday, honey. Andyouwifetells
youthekidattheplacewherelgotitdiditinanhour.
Okay. I’ll give you that one. Geesh.

:Thatwasajab.
:Yeah.

Well, I didn’t mean it that way. Like I asked you. I says, “Is this hard to put together?”
”Well, no. You can put it together in a little over an hour.”

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MC: Uh huh. So?

FC: She basically said no. I said, “Well, sure, he’s experienced at doing these things" And
she basically said, "No he’s just a dumb kid” So...

MT: Can'tjud buy it. Have to fix it.

FC: It's not like he can't do it. He just hasn't had the time. And it’s frustrating, frustrating,
frustrating.

MT: So you feel kind of fried after having the kids all evening?

FC: Oh man. I feel very fried some nights.

MT: There’s actually a term fo picking up kids at daycare. It’s called “the re-entry frenzy.”

FC: Exactly. It is. It is a frenzy.

MT: All kids do it.

FC: It’s jud like that.

MT: Becausetheyhaven’tseentheirparentsalldayandtheygocrazy.

FC: They do. Theygo bananas. It’s like I have to pick uponefirst becausetheotheroie’s
gonnagetmorebananas. Andyousan hearthemscreamingwhentheyhearmecoming.
They can see me through the glass.

MT: Yup.

FC: But all the kids are like... Get all excited. Like whose mom is it now? And it’s kind of like
ouhhhhh. Look at those sharks?

MT: Yup.

FC: Which one’s gonna bite me. They all start, you know.

MT: Is there anything you guys could do now to further that? I mean not that you’d have more
timeto spend. Idon’t know. Theweekendsorothergood times. lsthereanything else
you could do?

MC: During the week?

MT: Quality time. Yeah.

MC: Not really.

FC: Idon’t see where we could fit anything in.

MT: Anyoftheanxietiesthatcould be... Sounds like partofthe issuecomeswithyouguys like
you said, a short fuse or whatever.

FC: I think we need to work together a little bit better. We jud got this picking upldropping off
andoffissuetheotherday. lnademypointthismomingabout,youknow, I hadapoopy
diaperwhile nrshingtogetouttowork. You could helpmeout more inthemoning. And
l’vebeenhopeful about saying, ‘Wouldyoupleasegethershoesonorfindwhatshedid
with hersocksor, you know, helpmeort.’

MC: Yeah but some mornings, when you’re getting ready for wok, what am I doing?

FC: Um hmm.

MC: I’m on the corch...

FC: Snoozing. And l'm like, “Go to bed.” “Huh, huh?”

MT: Whattimedoyouusuallygethone?

MC: 6:30

FC: And l’m upatquartertosix. ltrytobereadyby6z30. Sothatthekidscan... Startgetting
them up by twenty to or quarter to. Most of the time you’re still up. So when I leave at... I
was leaving at 7:30 but I’ll be leaving at quarter alter.

MT: To take (female child #1 ’5 name).

FC: So, I have to go jud a tad earlier.

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CASE M5 TRANSCRIPTION

: Soyouwake up inthemoning an hourandahalfbeforeyou’vegottogotowokandtake

ashowerandgrababitetoeatandgetofftowork. Yougetortofwork,andyou'vegot
fron4or5intheaftemoontill like 10 o’clockatnight. Well, lgetup... Istartworkat
8:30. The shift startsat8:30. l’m upat3z30. l’m up5hours beforelhave to start work.
Sowhenlgethomel'mlikereversedasfarasldon'tgethomeandgomowmylawnand
drinkabeerandgoovertoa(malename)houseandseehowhislawmmower’sdoing.
Andyouknow,lhavetogohoneandgotobed.
Whatareyoudoingintheaftemoonsbeforeyougo?

: Ummmm...

Usually sleep too long.

:Liketodaylgotupat3z40. lcrawlortofbed,brushmyteeth,combmyhair,threwsome

clothes on. I(female child’s name) by4:00. And I gothorneand (female child’s name)
wantedtoplayvideogamesandlsatintliecliairaridkindofbabysatheralittlebit. And
umm,whenshegothone,ahhh,lwasinthehorsefor15minutes Wentortsideandhad
acigarette. Tookashower. Gotdressed. Andleftandwentoutagain.

: Geesh

lgothome. Madeagounnetdinnerofallorangefoodforthechildren. MCgotthereand
heleft. lsayoangefood.

Carrots,macaroniandcheese,andpizza.

Yah. Likeohmygod. It’s all oange. That’swhathappenswhenyou’re doing something
quick.

It’squick.

Orangeisafoodgroupwhenyou'reakid. ldon'tsare... Solspent10minuteswithhim.

:lagreewn’ththat. Nonnallylhavethree,threeandahalfhours Buttodaylhadtwohours.
:Sowhenyou’re talkingabortmakingthosethings runmoesmoothly, FC. You’re saying

workingtogetherrnore. Whatsortofthingsdoyouwanttoseemoreofolesofwithin
that little window you guys have as a family.

Well, let's see, he could cook dinner.... Ahhh. I think first of all getting (female child’s
name)cutsa half hourto45 minutesoutofmytirne. And ummm, lguessinthe moriings
not sitting in the chair and going, you know... You could get somebody’s shoes on or
changethediaperwould helpmeout ifl’m notready. Usually l’m ready. Butwiththeway,
you know... Lad night wasn’t too bad. We got to bed abort 10. But tlon (Female child
#2name)gotup. Foabortan hour. ldon’tknowwhatherproblemwas. Shewashappy
as a clam but she was like awake from 2:00 to 3:00. And umm...

: What could help in the mornings is to get (female child #1 name) up in bed at night.

Well, I don’t know...
She’s your... The rnajorthom in your side.
(Female child #1 name)’s the worst. I nean...

: She doesn’t get to bed?
MC:

She’ll wake up in the morning...
Wait a minute. She was in bed by 9:30 lad night.

:She’ll walk in the kitchen... Walk in the kitchen and open the cupboard wherethe cereal is

andsitonthefloorandsitthereforjud 10minutes
Well, excuse me! Igotinthecar(makesa growling noise).

: That ain’t me.
Okay.
lt'sjust... Idon't mind you driving mycarbut l jud gotthings abort my car because...

It's very antique.

190

MC:

FC:
MC
FC:

MC:

FC:

MC:

FC:

MT:

FC:

MT:

FC:

35%

53585

CASE M5 TRANSCRIPTION

My Chevy. l have a ’74. I’ll drive it next week.

Oh good. I ain't driving it. We’ll drive separately.

It’ll get towed away before (inaudible) is up.

It's a '74.

Who’s ever known us knows where we live if they see this car.

It’s rusted to hell. It looks like it doesn’t even beloig in a junkyard and it’s always cleaner
than her van.

Yup. My van’s a shit hole. It’s a cheerio-packin’, gum-chewing mess.

Kids can do that to a car.

Andnowlworkinmycar. You know,lamtravelingsolhave...

Hone visits?

Yes And I liveinthatcaralldaylong. ldousually50to 120 milesadayand . .. You
know, lgetmyjunkorteveryday, but,youknow,lgotrnyworkstuffintherenow. And
thekidshadsomecheeriocatastropheintheback. You knowyoucouldfeedathirdworld
country off all them damn Cheerios.

:Iwouldn’t... lwouldn't allowthatinmycar. Just bemuse...
: Well, seewehadthislittlethinggoingandtheyverebothkindofcrabbywhenlpicked

them up. So I’d have this little container. And I’d bring cheerios or you know, sonething.
Dry cereal’s was a big thing and (child name) would feed me, and that was her thing, you
know. ‘Cause like I brought her M&M’s once and that was a mistake, ‘cause then they
wanted M&M’s every day. And I was not going to give them M&M’s every day. And the
chocolate didn't help me “muse it melts on your hands and face wlen you’re a kid. So we
didthecheeriothing. Andttenonedayladweekitmnt“boon"andsothere'scheerios
everywhereinthecar. Seelhavemoetolerancefortheldds, l don'tcareifthere’s
Cheerios in the sar.

: You’re more tolerant of their eating.
: See, well, that's it. It’s either that or spend half your life cleaning.

You see we have gore full circle because when this man conmuted, you couldn't sit in the
froit seatofhissarforthegarbage. Itwasall in there.

:Yeahbutlhadapowerconmute.

Uhhhl Idon’tcarewhatyouhad. ltdoesn’tmatter. Youusedtobeapig.

:Sol’ve changed.

Right. Now I don’t consider myself a pig. I consider myself a victim of children.
ljud...
You hate the way the car is.

:llookatthevanasaninvestnent,notavehicle.

Oh yeah, well you shouldn’t look at it that way.

: Because we had a negative equity for years and years. We didn’t know what it was like

to... Wedidn'tknowwhatitwasliketomakemoneyonacar. Weonlyknewwhatitwas
liketolosemoneyonacar. Andwlenveborghtthevaanaidlet’skwpthisvanclean
becauseifwepayitoffwithin3years... lthoughtitwasgoingtobebutitwasfour. ltwas
agrand illusion. We’llmakeaprofitonthismr. Soifwekeepitdecent...

lknow. Butl’mnotlettingthemeatchocolatesynoandredpop. Cheeriosain'tlikethat.

:l'mnotsayingitcan’tallbecleaned ljud... Anyway...

191

5.33%

1,
.Q

5.35

FC:

CASE M5 TRANSCRIPTION

:Well lwasjudgoingtosayit’sinterestingthatafewminutesagowhenlaskedaboutwho

needed to be more tolerant. Then you both thought of the other one right away. I think
you did, or that’s what I saw. So. And that’s the big challenge in doing the (inaudible)
when you’re stressed or angry it’s very easy to get frustrated and so you want to blame it
on somebody. It’s very hard to say, “What’s my role in this? What can I do to kind of
change this whole pattern?” So that‘s the challenge. But one thing you guys are both
doing well tonight and other times is that you are taking responsibility. You are speaking
for yourself. You're saying, “I felt this way.” And a whole lot of couples have the hardest
timewith that. You guys do it well.

: You should see us at home.

Yeah. Why'd you say that?

: Soyou’rempableofthat. Somepeopleseriouslydon’tseemtobeabletodothateven if

they're prodded. So...
Ahh we can. We just... We kind of say it’s your fault.

: Of course it's easier to.

No. We both are smart enough to know that’s not so.

:Soit'sjustamatterofbackingupandlookingatwhatwassaidanddecidewhat’sgoingon

ratherthan reacting. It’s hard to do. But you are doingsorneof these thi098.80that's
good.

lthinkwearedoingalotbetterthanweusedto. Andwhenwedohaveproblems,we’rea
littlemorecritisalof them. Sitbackand go, you know.

192

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194

 

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