EDITOR'S NOTE:
Ngugi  Wa  Thiongo  of course  requires  little,  if any  introduction.  His
interview  with  Enekwe was  originally  recorded  more than  fifteen
years  ago when  he  last visited  Nigeria. The fortunes  of the  exiled
novelist have however  not changed  much over  the years,  neither  his
politics, nor  those of  his beloved  land,  Kenya, which  provides  the
setting for  all of  Ngugi's  creations.

Ngugi  and  Enekwe were  to  meet yet  again,  this time on the staff  of
the New  York University were  until last year  they  both  taught
Performing Arts  in the  Department  of  Comparative  Literature.  It
afforded  Ngugi  the opportunity  to  revise the transcript - whose  ideas
a re  n o'  ^J8B'J§§£l''y  a r n e nd ed  - and  we  have  the  privilege  of  printing
fo. 

A

R: Anybody  who  is  familiar
with your -work will not fail to
notice  that  you  have  been
consistently  concerned  about
the  condition  of  people  in
Kenya:  One,  the  impact  of
colonialism,  the  advent  or
coming of the white man; two,
the  economic  exploitation  of
Africans by Europeans; three,
the  economic  exploitation  of
Africans by Africans. What is
your  attitude  to  your  work
before A Grain of Wheat and
Petals of Blood?

N G U G I:  I  have  been  concerned
with imperialism in Kenya in its two stages:
the  colonial  and 
the  neo-colonial.
Imperialism  is  a  total  phenomenon  - an
economic,  a  political  and  a  cultural
phenomenon. So, its impact on the people
tends to be all embracing. So, we can say
that  the  struggle  against  imperialism  is
also total: it's economic,  it's political  and
it  is  also  cultural.  Writings  by  Africans
then  needs  to  be  seen  in  that  context.  I
would  say  that  my  earlier  work  like The
River Between  tended  to  be  a  bit  more
concerned  with  the  cultural  aspect  of
imperialism  but to  the  near  exclusion  of
economic  aspects.  And  in  A  Grain  of
Wheat,  Petals of Blood  and in  my latest
work,  I try  to  see  imperialism  in  all  its
aspects - economic, political and cultural,
and  see  all  the  aspects  of  the  struggle
against the same.

GR:  What  do  you  think  you
achieved  in  your  first  novels  The River
Between and Weep  Not  Child?

NGUGI: Well, the struggles against

African  Quarterly
on the Arts
Vol. II NO 5

We Are All
Learning
from
History

INTERVIEW
WITH
NGUGI  WA
THIONG'O

Onuora
Ossia
Enekwe 

:

cultural  imperialism  are  very  important,
since they tend to deal with the liberation
of the mind, liberation  of the soul,  if you
like. So, any novel that contributes, even
a  bit,  towards  that  cultural  struggle  is
important.  The River Between and  Weep
Not  Child d\d contribute their bit towards
an  appreciation  of  this  struggle  against
cultural imperialism. However,  The River
Between tends to exclude economic  and
political  factors.  This  contributes  to  its
weakness. The world-view  in the novel is

idealistic. 
It  does  not  see
sufficiently that values are rooted
in political and economic realities.

GRi  Could you, then,  say
that A Grain  of Wheafand Petals
of  Blood  are  reflecting  a  new
ideological  perspective?

in 

N G U G I: There is a definite
shift in the two novels, particularly
in the  Petals of  Blood.  I consider
A  Grain  of  Wheat  to  be  a
transitional 
the
novel 
ideological  sense. 
It  stands
between my two novels (The River
Between  and  Weep  Not  Child]
and my later works, like Petals of
Blood  and  The  Trial  of  Dedan
Kimathi,  I feel that there  is a shift
of  emphasis  in  the  sense  that  I
tried to look at the different aspects
journey  of
of 
emancipation 
from  slavery,
colonialism  to  neo-colonialism.
There is, for  instance, in Petals of
Blood, an examination of the class
structure in African  societies  and
the  the  class  struggles  that  are
inherent  in that kind  of  structure.
Now  my  previous  works  rarely
show the class character of African
societies.

the  African 

GRz  How  did  you  get  to

this  stage?

to 

themselves  about 

N G U G I:  My  involvement
in  Kenya,
with  the  conditions 
particularly  in the Department of
Literature  at  the  University  of
Nairobi.  I was  lucky  to  be  in  a
department  which  had  brilliant
scholars  who  were  continually
asking 
the
relevance of literature to life  and
particularly 
the  Kenyan
situation. In the course of my stay
in that department, we collectively
tried to work out how the study of
literature  could  be  made  more
relevant to the  Kenyan situation.
We tried to devise a new syllabus
of literature for the University and
for the schools  in  Kenya. Again,
in  asking  ourselves  questions
about  the  relevance  of  literature
to life, we  held public  lectures at

the University of Nairobi and these
lectures were very useful because
of  the  types  of  debates  and
discussions generated. Again, still
in  the  pursuit  of  that  objective  of
'Making Literature Relevantto Life',
we  established  the  University  of
Nairobi  Free Public Tfiearre, which
travelled all over the country during
the long vacation. So, I would say
that  my 
the
Department  of  Literature  at  the
University  of  Nairobi  was  very
important  in  my  own  ideological
development.

involvement 

in 

the 

ideas  of 

GR:  In  Petals of  Blood,  we
come  across  a  young  lawyer,  a
man of ideas, who seems to be an
the  group.  He
ideologue  of 
articulates 
the
revolution.  Considering  what
happened in Kenya at the time (or
before) you wrote Petals of  Blood,
are the activities of the lawyer and
the  young  people  in  the  book
similartowhatyou have in Kenya?
Do  they  reflect  the  situation  in
Kenya?

NGUGI:  Yes, the  lawyer's
views  do  reflect  the  ideological
position  of a certain class.  Kenya
is  a  class  structured  society  with
different  classes  standing 
in
different  positions  vis-a-vis  the
forces  of  production  and  vis-a-vis
the forces of  imperialism. There is
the  comprador  bourgeoisie  that
actively  collaborates  with  foreign
economic interests. There is also a
national bourgeoisie, which is very
tiny,  very  rudimentary.  By  this  I
mean,  that  class  of  Kenyans  that
try to operate a national capitalism.
I  don't  think  that  foreign  capital
will  ever  allow  for  a  liberated
national  capitalism. Then there is
a  petty-bourgeois  class in  Kenya,
comprising small traders, farmers,
teachers, etc. And finally, peasants
and  workers.  These  classes  are
basically  economic,  but  they  do
have their  ideological  reflections.
They,  that  is,  these classes,  have
their  ideological  spokesmen.  In
other words, there is an ideological
position  that  corresponds  to  the

economic position of each class.
I  would  say  that  the  lawyer's
position represents not necessarily
the 
the
working  class,  but  patriotic
nationalism  of  a  national
bourgeoise.

ideological  mind  of 

GR:  We  don't  know  how
you came about the character  of
Wanja.  We  think  she  is  a  very
powerful person and we see such
a character in God's  Bits of  Wood
byOusmaneSembene. They are
of  the  same  upbringing  and
similar  experience.  Were  you
trying  to  create  thgt  character
(Wanja) deliberately or were you
trying to portray what could have
happened?  Did  you  want  this
character to carry some message?

N G U G I:  Well, 

I  have
always  been  interested  in  the
position of women in Africa. I feel

There is also  3

national
bourgeoisie,  which
is  very tiny,  very
rudimentary.  By
this I mean,  that
class  of  Kenyans
that  try  to  operate
a  national
capitalism* I don't
think that  foreign
capital  will  ever
allow for a
liberated  national
capitalism*

that  we  can  never  talk  of  total
liberation  of  Africa  unless  the
is  also  completely
woman 
liberated.  That 
the  success  of
our 
liberation  should  be
measured by the extent to which
the African woman  is liberated.
I  am  interested  in  the  women
struggles and in the position that
the  Kenyan  woman  occupy  in
the history of our country. One of

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»n the  Am
Vol.11 NO 3

I.n  the  fifties,

important

again,  the  Kenyan
woman  played  a
very 
role  in  the  kitchen,
in  the  forest,  feed-
ing  the  guerrillas
and  even  in  fight-
ing.  Some  of  the
fiercest  guerrilla
fighters  among 
Mau Mau  were
women.

the

words aboutthe role of that woman
in  The  Trial  of  Dedan  Kimathi,
especially  in  relation  to  the  girl
and  the  boy?

N G U G I:  Well,  as  you
know,  I wrote  this  play  together
with Micere Mugo, a colleague in
the Department of Literature at the
University  of  Nairobi.  Now,  and
we  try  also  to  show  the  need  for
total liberation. We show the role
of  the  Kenyan woman  in  Kenyan
history. The woman in The Trial of
Dedan Kimathi  is important  in the
sense 
that  she  carries  a
revolutionary  consciousness.  She
can  see much  more than  the  boy
and the girl can see. In the forest,
she can see a bit more than some
of the other guerrillas can see. So,
she  is  important  in  the  play  as  a
carrier, 
like,  of 
this
revolutionary  consciousness.

if  you 

GR:  Can  you  compare
Wanja  to this woman  in the  Trial
of  Dedan  Kimathi?

NGUGI: Well, I'd say they
are different. The woman in Dedan
Kimathi  is  much  more  conscious
of  her  political  role,  much  more
conscious  of  the  need  for  a
revolutionary  change  in  Kenyan
society.  I'd  say that Wanja  is not
as  politically  conscious  as  this
particular  woman 
in  the  play.
Wanja  has revolutionary  energy,
revolutionary
without 
a 
consciousness 
I think  this  is  the
difference  in the two.

organised 

our earliest nationalist leaders was
in  fact  a  woman  Mekatilili  a
Giriama  from the coastal parts of
Kenya.  She  organised  coastal
nationalities  in a struggle  against
the British occupation of Kenya in
the early part of this century. She
was old - about  sixty years old or
more - but she organised the youth,
gave them  the  oath  of  unity.  She
armed  them  and  they  started
fighting  against  the British. Later,
she was arrested and  imprisoned
many, many miles from her home
area.  She  escaped  from  prison
and  walked  all  the  way  about
three  hundred  miles  back  to  her
peopletocontinuethe  struggle. In
1 924, Harry Thuku who was then
the leader  of the working  class in
Kenya was detained without  trial
by  the  British 
It  was  a  woman,
Mary  Nyanjiru  Muthon,
who 
a
demonstration  demanding
his release.  It turned out to
be  one  of 
the  biggest
demonstrations  that  had
ever  been  seen  in  Kenya.
Demonstrators  marched to
the  government  house
demanding  the  release  of
their  leader.  Nyanjiru  was
the  first  to  be  shot  by  the
British along with a hundred
and  fifty  other  workers.  In
the 
the
Kenyan  woman  played  a
very  important  role  in  the
kitchen,  in the forest,  feeding the
guerrillas  and  even  in  fighting.
Some  of  the  fiercest  guerrilla
fighters among the MauMau were
women  Some  were  sent  to  the
detention  camps,  others 
to
ordinary  prisons  and  so on. The
Kenyan woman has played a very
very important role in the Kenyan
history.  And  a  novelist  cannot
ignore  this  particular  role.

fifties,  again, 

GR:  In  The Trial of  Dedan
Kimathi, what you are trying to do
is to create the role of woman as
not  only  the  mother,  but  also  a
leading  figure  in the revolution. I
think  that  it  is  a  very  important
play  Can  you  please  say  a  few

African  Quarterly
on the Arts
VoU/NO3

GR:  So what you are sayi ng
is that Wanja  has a potential for a
revolutionary 
through
experience.  How  could  she
develop 
the
woman?

to  become 

role 

like 

N G U G I:  It is a  potentiality,
of course. In that sense, I am more
concerned with the waste of women
in  a  neo-colonial  society.  Their
energy  is often  imprisoned,  if you
like,  between  the  bed  and  the
kitchen.  Society  is  the  loser  for
imprisoning  or  confining  women
to  that  position.  Take  it  this  way,
since  women  form  half  of  the
population  of  the  country,  if  you
imprison  their  total  abilities,  you
are in fact imprisoning the abilities
of  the  population  as a whole.

GR:  It seems  that  the  main
achievement  of the woman  in The
Trial  of  Dedan  Kimathi 
is
inculcating 
revolutionary
awareness  in  the  young  people,
and  also  in unifying  the people; it
appears that you in fact introduced
her symbolically as a kind of Mary
in the trial of Jesus Christ.  Did you
want  to  use the figure  of Mary  as
a  kind  of  symbol  here?

N G U G I:  We  were  not
conscious  of  the  parallel.  I  didn't
see  that  parallel  myself,  but  of
course,  another  reader  may  well
see it. It does not mean that parallel
is  not  there  But  we  were  not
conscious of  it in writing  the play.
The  play  carries  our  belief  that
Kenya  and  Africa  would  be
liberated  the time African  women
become fully politically conscious.
The momentthey become politically
conscious, then things will happen
in Africa. And the woman figure is
a symbol for these potentialities in
the  Kenyan  and  African  women.

GR:  You  seem  to  be  using
the  Bible  in  your  writing,  even  in
The  Trial  of  Dedan  Kimathi. 
It
appears that you  see the trial as a
parody of the trial Jesus underwent.

N G U G I:  As  I said  before,

we  were  not  very  conscious  of
these  parallels.  Now,  about  the
Biblical  references  in  my  works,
this is not accidental, because for
a  long  time  as  a  child,  the  Bible
was my only literature. The Bible is
the one book which is available in
nearly all the African languages. It
is a common literary heritage. And
so, it is quite natural that if I want
to  make references which will  be
recognized,  I will go to the Bible.
I  make  the  same  kind  of  use  of
traditional  stories,  proverbs,
riddles,  etc.  In  other  words,  the
Bible  is  part  and  parcel  of  the
literary  framework  within which I
have been writing.

GR: So that explains why in
every book you have written there
are quotes from the Bible. But one
can  see  a  definite  shift  in  your
attitude  to  the  Bible  as  from  A
Grain of Wheat, and definitely, in
The Trial ofDedan  Kimathi. In the
latter, for example, you consistently
undercut certain ideas in the Bible.
Does this correspond to the shift in
your  ideological  position?

NGUGI: Yes, it's definitely
part  of  this  shift  that  we  talked
about earlier. Obviously my recent
works have become more critical,
not of the Bible, but of Christianity
as  a  whole.  So,  you  are  quite
right,  Christianity  is  much  more
critically  examined  in  Petals of
B/ooc/than  it was, let's say, in The
River Between. Even in A Grain of
Wheat,  I think, Christianity  is not
held in an uncritical  light.

GR: So what exactly is your
response to Christianity right now
in relation to the whole  struggle?

especially 

NGUGI:  Well,  in  all  my
writings, 
in
Homecoming,  I  have  been  very
critical of the role that Christianity
has played  in the colonisation  of
the African  people.  I have  taken
the  position  that  Christianity  was
part  and  parcel  of  cultural
imperialism. Even at a very simple
level  of  symbolism,  we  can  see

howChristianity weakened African
people. If you look at the Christian
imagery of God and Satan, as the
devil is seen in terms of blackness.
So  in  pictures  in  most  churches
God was displayed as being white;
angels were white and of course,
people  who  went  to  heaven
eventually  wore  white  robes  of
purity. The devils and their angels
wear  black.  African  people  then
were  seen  as  sons  of  Ham  who
were cut away from God. African
Christians were made to sing songs
like:  Wash Me  Redeemer,  I Shall
Be Whiter Than Snow. Quite apart
from that, the Bible was used by the
missionaries to preach the doctrine
of non-violence, the doctrine of turn
the  other  cheek  once  the  other
cheek has been hit by your enemy,
the doctrine of giving your enemy
the  inner  garment  after  he  has
already taken your outer garment;
the  doctrine,  if  you  like,  of  your
giving  Caesar  things  that  are
Caesar's, etc. These meant colonial
Caesar, etc. You can see that some
of these doctrines are designed to
weaken African people in the face
of  imperialist  exploitation  and
oppression.  Christianity  and  the
Bible were part and  parcel of the
doctrine  of  pacification  of  the
primitive  tribes  of  lower  Africa.
This  doctrine  of  nonviolence  is  a
contrast to the doctrine of struggle,
of resistance to foreign aggression,

[ow, about  the
Biblical references
in my works,  this
is not  accidental,
because  for a long
time as a child,
the Bible was my
only  literature.

foreign exploitation and foreign
occupation  of  our  people's
country.

GKz You  just  mentioned
the pacification  of the primitive
tribes  and  immediately  one
Captain
remembered 
Winterbottom 
in  Chinua
Achebe's  book. 
I  also  see
Winterbottom  in  Kimathi  and
Mr. Smith too. Is this part of or a
continuation  of  the  joke  as  we
see  Winterbottom,  one  of  the
British  soldiers  tried  in  Dedan
Kimathi?

NGUGI: Well, yes, it is a
continuation  of  the  joke.  It is a
very appropriate  name for  this
category  of people.  It is also a
kind of intertextual dialogue with
Achebe's  work.

GR:  Also,  is  the  Smith
there  in  a  way  related  to  the
Smith in Arrow  of God?

NGUGI:  Novels  like
Things Fall Apart  and Arrow  of
God have now become part of
our 
heritage.
Borrowing the name consciously
or  unconsciously  is  part  of  the
infertextual communication.

common 

GR:  We  suppose  you

would place The Black Hermit'm
the  same  group  as  your  early
works,  The River Between and
Weep  Not  Child,  in  terms  of
their attitude to  revolution?

NGUGI:  Yes,  that  play
belongs to that period, the period
of The River Between and  Weep
Not  Child. I would  say that the
play is not as politically clear as,
let's  say,  The Trial  of  Dedan
Kimathi or in my plays in Gikuyu
language.  The 
ideological
position in The Black Hermit is a
bit hazy; it is misty; it is not clear
and  is one of the  shortcomings
of that particular  play.

GR:  Apart 

from 

the

ideological problem in The Black

African Quarterly

en the Am
VU1/N03

Hermit,  what  other  problems  do
you find in the play? For instance,
the  problem  of  structure?

NGUGI:  It  has  got  some
weaknesses.  As  you  know,  it's
one of my earliest plays and I was
then  not  as  much  involved  in  the
theatre  as  I  have  come  to  be.
There  are  a  lot  of  weaknesses  in
structure,  in  characterization,  in
the whole  dramatic  movement  of
the 
remember,
ideological mistiness and haziness
can also ruin the structure of a play
or  a  novel.  It  is  this  ideological
haziness  or  mistiness  in  certain
levels that weakens  the  play.

play.  But 

GR: So what you are saying
is that  in fact,  it  is not possible  to
write  a  play  that  is  structurally
correct  unless  the  idea  is  also
correct?

NGUGI: The idea and the
tone  have to be clear.  The clarity
of idea, or clarity  of content  often
brings about the clarity of structure.
But  whenever  the  central  idea  is
not  clear,  it  leads  to  the  general
unclarity  of content and structure.

GR: So in The Trial of Dedan
Kimalhi  this  problem  has  been
dealt with as it is essentially a very
ideological  work.  What  you
achieve  there  is  to  deal  with  the
ideological  question  more
conclusively and more effectively.
We  refer to some of the problems
you  have  been  talking  about  in
other  works.  Even  though  it's  a
short  script,  you  have  succeeded
in bringing  the whole  problem  to
life.  Would  this  be  an  accurate
assessment?

NGUGI:  Yes.  I would  say
that the central ideas in The Trial of
Dedan  Kimalhi  are  much  more
clear  than  it was  in  the  previous
plays. But remember that The Trial
of  Dedan  Kimatht was  a work  of
two  hands,  two minds.

GR:  You  talked  about  the
theatre  group  that  moved  round

African  Quarterly
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Vol. 11 NO  3

the  country  in  Kenya,  the  one  that
travelled  from  your  department  in
the  University.  What  did  you  learn
from those tours, from the  people?

N G U G I:  The  group  was
called the University of Nairobi  Free
Travelling  Theatre. I was not myself
individually  part  of  the  travelling
troupe. That is, I did  not travel  with
it, but it was part of our departmental
programme.  It was  led  by  teachers
like  John  Rugando  and  Waigwo
who were  involved  in theatre  in the
department.  This  'Free  Travelling
Theatre'was  instrumental in my later
interest in having a theatre based in
villages.  In other  words, some of us
came  to  the  conclusion  that  while
the travelling troupe was  important,
theatre  could  never  take  root  in
Kenya  unless  it  was  based  in  the
villages  and  towns with  the  people
themselves writing their  own  scripts
and  performing  them themselves. It
is this kind of idea that was  behind

play.  Some  would  hire  buses,
others  public  transport  to  come
and  see  the  play  which  was
obviously  reflecting  their  own
history,  their  own  lives.  You,  of
course,  know  that  the  play  was
later 
by  Kenyan
authorities and I was subsequently
detained  in prison  without  trial.

stopped 

GR:  Would  you  like to tell
me what happened in the night or
day  of  performance  of 
the
Ngaahika Ndeenda. How did the
audience  respond?

N G U G I:  As  I  said,  the
audience  was  very  enthusiastic.
Some  of  them  had  followed  the
production  from  the  initial  stages
of  rehearsal  right  through  the
formal  presentation.  They  were
part  of  the  play.

GR: You mean the peasants
who  were  not  directly  involved

Novels like  Things Fall Apart  and  Arrow  of
God have now  become  part  of our  common
heritage.  Borrowing  the  name-consciously
or unconsciously  is part  of  the 
intertextual
communication.

the  setting  up  of 
'Kamiriithu
Community  Educational  and
Cultural Centre', based in c village
called  Kamiriithu  in  Limuri  that  is
twenty  miles 
from  N a i r o b i.
Members had been present at some
performances  of  the  University  of
Nairobi  Free  Travelling  Theatre.
And they were the ones who asked
for a play to perform. This resulted
in  my  collaboration  with  Ngugi
Wa  Miri  in the writing of a play in
Gikuyu 
Ngaahika
Ndeenda.  The play was written in
1 ° 77  and  performed  the  same
year  for these people  in the same
village.  The 
of
performance was very high indeed.
All  the actors  were  peasants  and
workers from the area. The impact
they made on the people was also
very  significant  indeed.  Peasants
and workers would travel for miles
and  miles  to  come  and  see  the

standard 

called 

with  the  acting

N G U G I: 

They  were
involved  in  everything,  Yes,  they
added to the script. The production
had done a number of things which
were  a  departure  from  tradition.
For instance, the readings were all
open to the public. The selection of
actors again was done in the open.
So,  right  from  the  beginning  we
had audiences. And theaudiences
grew  with 
the  growth  of  the
production. And still, many of them
later  came  in  as  part  of  the  fee
paying  crowd.  The  performances
reflected  an  ever 
increasing
audience. The people?  whocame
to see the play were growing  day
in and day out. And anybody who
had  seen  the  play  before  would
still come to see the play a second,
third,  fourth,  or  fifth  time.  I  know
some who were with the play right

through  all  the  rehearsals  and
rightthrough allthe performances.
So, these were  anticipating  lines
from actors. They knew the whole
play by heart and they knew what
the actor was going  to  say.  If an
actor missed his lines, they would
correct  him.  By  the  way,  the
rehearsals and the performances
were  so  arranged  as  to  keep  in
line with the  rhythm  of  life  in the
village.  That  is,  the  rehearsals
took  into  account  the  working
pattern  of  the  peasants  and
workers. The rehearsals were only
done in those periods when these
workers were  not going  to be all
that busy in their homes. The formal
performances  for  instance,  were
never  done  at  night.  They  were
done  in  daytime,  mostly  in  the
afternoons  of  Sundays  and
Saturdays,  but  towards  the end,
you could find all the performances
on Sundays only. The theatre was
open, of course, inthe heart of the
village and incidentally the whole
theatre with the stage was built by
the people  themselves.

GR:  What type of structure

did they construct?

N G U G I: They had a raised
stage,  but  it  had  no  curtains  or
roof. Behind the stage, there were
rooms  where  the  actors  could
change  their  dresses,  etc.  There
were  no  walls  separating  the
actors  from  the  audience.  The
audience  could  see  the  actors
coming in or getting out of stage.
They had  built  their  seats  for  the
audience.  The  type  of  seats  you
see  in  a  stadium  so  that  people
who sit in front would not obstruct
the  view  of  those  sitting  at  the
back.

GR:  How  would  you
describe  the  response  of  the
audience during the performance?

N G U G I:  Very, 

very
enthusiastic.  I  can  remember  a
number  of  times  when  the  rain
fell,  but  instead  of  going  to their
homes,  people  sat  back  or

the 

during 

sheltered  themselves  in  nearby
huts to wait for the rain to subside.
The actors would rush back to the
stage,  and  the  whole  audience
would return to their seats to see
the  continuation  of  the  play.  So
even 
formal
performances,  when  they  were
paying  entrance 
the
audience  was  still  very  very
enthusiastic.  And  as  I  said,  the
audiences  came  from  afar  and
not only the peasants and workers
from the village, but people also
trekked  from  distances  of  well
over  a  hundred  miles  to  come,
and see the play. They came on
foot,  in hired buses, etc.

fees, 

extremely high and nothing like it
had ever been seen on the Kenyan
stage.

GR: Did this response spill
over  into the community  in terms
of discussions,  reactions,  etc?

N G U G I:  Definitely,  yes.
We started receiving delegations
from other villages for advice  on
how  they  too could  start  similar
adventures 
own
communities. So the play had an
impact  and  effect  on  people  in
and  beyond  the  borders  of  the
immediate  community.

their 

in 

GR:  What
exactly  do  you
think  made  them
do so?

NGUGI:
As I said, the play
correctly reflected
their  history  and
their lives. And for
the  first  time,  the
peasants  and  the
workers could see
t h e m s e l v es
reflected  on  the
stage,  not  in  a
negative light, but
in  a 
positive
manner. They saw
themselves  being
portrayed  as  the
true  makers  of
history  which,  of
course,  they  are.
So I would say that
the  content  was
very  important  in
eliciting  this  kind
of  response,  as
well  as 
the  standard  of
performance.  Some  people,
critics,  doubted  whether  these
were  really  peasants.  They
thought that these were university
students  dressed  like  village
people,  which  of  course  was
ridiculous and showed contempt
for the working people. But, the
standard of  performance  was

GR:  When  you  were

lit

remember,
ideological
mistiness
and hazi-
ness can
also  ruin  the
structure  of
a play  or a
novel.

detained,  did 
continue  to  perform?

these  people

N g u gi  Their morale was
very depressed by my detention.
As  I  told  you,  the  licence  to
perform the play was stopped by
the government. So these people
could not continue with the play.

Afrittn Qiururly
on the Ant
VcLUN03

What  they  did,  however,  was  to
continue with their  singing. When
I came from detention, a year later,
I  found that they  had  brought  out
two  records of the songs they  had
been  composing  when  I  was  in
detentionin the  Maximum security
jail.

GR:  The songs were part of

the  play?

N G U G I: Yes, the play drew
very very heavily on oral tradition,
singing  and  dancing,  etc.  It  was
almost like a musical. So the songs
they  brought  out  were  part  and
parcel  of  the  play.  I  remember
once taking Chinua Achebe around
to see the village theatre and when
the  peasants  learnt  that  he  was
Chinua Achebe they started asking
him  to  tell  the  world  to  bring
pressure on the Kenyan government
so that  the  licence  to  perform  the
play  could  be  restored to them.

GR: What  happened when
the actors danced? Did they dance
on the wooden  structure?

N G U G I:  Yes, they  danced
on the wooden structure. But it was
done in such a way that there was
no real wall between the audience
and  the  actors  so  that  the  actors
could  see  and  be  seen  by  the
audience,  etc.  There  was  also
constant  movement  between  the
audience and the stage actors - no
real wall  dividing  the two.

GR:  Did  some  of 

the
members of the audience come out
to meet the performers sometimes?

N G U G I:  The  audience
joined in singing some of the songs
with which they were  familiar.

GR:  I would like to return to
The trial  of  Dedan  Kimathi  You
start off with this objective of writing
itaround Dedan Kimathi butin fact
by the time you finish the play, you
have  not given  much  attention  to
his  history.  What  you  have  done
is,  in  fact,  to  concentrate  on  the

1 Afhcan  Quarurij
|  9n the  Am
j VUI/N03

ome  people,
critics,  doubted

whether  these
were realty  pea-
sants.  They  thought
that  these  were
university  students
dressed  like  village
people,  which of
course  was ridi-
culous and  showed
contempt  for  the
working  people.
But  the  standard
of  performance
was extremely  high
and nothing  like  it
had ever  been  seen
on the Kenyan
stage.

people, on the woman  and  the  girl
and  then  also  on  the  dialectical
confrontation  between  Dedan
Kimathi,  the  Bankers  and  the  other
exploiters. Was this done purposely?

N G U G I: We  saw Kimathi as
being much more than an individual
We  saw  him  as  syrrbolizing  the
people, the masses, who in our view
were  the  key  makers  of  history.  So
Kimathi is not seen as an individual.
He is a symbol of a collective will of
the  Kenyan  people.

GR:  So  that  is  why,  even
though the play  is named after  him,
you  spend more time on the people
than on  Kimathi?

N G U G I:  Yes, that  is it

GR:Why did you and Micere

introduce the scene where Kimathi
has  to  deal  with  his  brother's
betrayal  of  him?  I  mean  the
hesitation, the doubt, the inability
to  take  a  firm  decision  at  that
time? There is a kind of indecision
on  the  part  of  Dedan  Kimathi
once we begin to know about his
mother  and  his  brother.

N G U G I:  We  wanted  to
show  the  pitfalls  of  kinship  in  a
revolutionary  struggle.  If you  put
kinship  above  the  need  of  the
revolution, you are bound to fail.
But,  Dedan  realises  that  and
advises  his  followers  never  to
again 
or
considerations  of  kinship  above
those  of  the  struggle.  Dedan
Kimathi  himself  says  that  his
brother  and  his  sister  are  only
those  who  are  with  him  in  the
struggle and those who share his
ideology  and  the  revolutionary
objectives.

kinship 

put 

GR:  We  have  Dedan
Kimathi  of history, that is, Dedan
Kimathi that we discuss in history
and  the  one  that  we  have  read
about.  But  you  seem  to  have
created your own Dedan Kimathi.
You  have  made  him  more  like  a
Marxist  fighter.  How  much of the
two Dedan Kimathis do you have
in this  play

from 

N g u gi  Well, the Kimathi
in the play, as well as the Kimathi
in  history,  are  people  who  were
leaders of a revolutionary struggle.
Let me recommend to you a book
called  Thunder 
the
Mountains.  The  sub-title  is  'Mau
Mau  patriotic  songs'.  It is edited
by  Maina-wa-Kinyatti 
and
published  in  London  by  the  Zed
Publishers. This particular  book is
very  important  because  it  is  a
record of the songs composed by
the  Mau  Mau 
guerrillas
themselves.  So  the  songs  do  in
fact  contain  a  correct  record  of
the views  and  objectives  of  Mau
Mau  guerrlla  fighters  And  the
songs  will  prove  that  the  Dedan
Kimathiof  The TWa/iscloser to the

historical  Kimathi.  Remember  that
we also did a lot of research on the
history  of  Kimathi.  Micere  and  I
even visited the place he was born.
And we visited the forest from which
he  used  to  operate,  and  even  the
place  where  he  was 
finally
captured.  We  talked to the  people
who  knew  him  as  a  child,  as  a
teacher,  and  as  guerrilla  leader.
Remember  that  it  was  not  Marx
who  created  workers  and  class
struggles.  Marx  learnt from  history
and  not  history  from  Marx.

that  because  of 

GR: Yes, in any case it seems
to  me 
the
fundamental  role  that  economic
factors  play  in  Marxist  ideology,
you can say that in as far as Dedan
Kimathi and the other fighters were
conscious  of 
fundamental
economic  fact,  they  are  in  fact,
operating within  marxist  ideology.

this 

N G U G I:  The  workers  are
the  producers  of  the  wealth  that
they themselves  have to  purchase.
This is true of the workers  in Kenya
and the workers  everywhere. They
want to be  in control  of the wealth
which  they  have  produced.  And
they  don't  need  to  read  books  to
have  this  particular  objective.  It's
part  of  their  lives.  It's  part  of  their
needs,  it's  part  of  their  struggle,
their  very  lives  that  they  want  to
control.

GR:  I  would  like  to  ask  a
question  about  Petals of  Blood.  I
see that  you  worked  on  that  book
when you were in the Soviet Union
Do you think  the novel would  have
been different if you had written it in
Kenya?

N G U G I: The novel, Petals of
Blood,  was  started  when  I was  in
Evonston in the United States, where
in  1 9 7 0 / 7 1,  I was  an  Associate
Professor  of  literature  at  North-
Western  University  But the bulk  of
the novel was written when I was in
Kenya and only the last few chapters
were finished when I was in Russia
The novel took  about  five  years  to
write and four  of those years  were

spent in Kenya. And only one month
in the  Soviet  Union.  So  it was  the
finishing 
touches  which  were
worked  out  when  I  was  in  the
Soviet  Union.

GR:  Now,  when  you  were
finishing  the  novel,  in  the  Soviet
Union,  was  there  anything  that
happened 
that  could  have
influenced  the work?

NGUGI:  Not  necessarily.  I
was all by myself in a place called
Yalta,  on the  Black  Sea.  I needed
that  particular  month  to  be  all  by
myself  in  a  place  where  I did  not
know  the  language  of  the  people
and  where  I  would  not  get  any
disturbance in the course of putting
the  finishing  touches  to  the novel.
The atmosphere  at Yalta was  very
very peaceful. It was very peaceful,
the atmosphere, very conducive to
writing.  It  was  named  after  the
great  Russian writer  Chekov.

GR:  Would  you  like  to talk
generally  about  African  writers.
You  know  'hat  many  things  have
been said about African Literature.
What would you say, in assessment
of 
this  Literature,  especially
considering  its  growth,  up  to  this
point?

N G U G I:  Let  me  say
something about my latest book of
essays called  Writers in Politics. In
this book, you will find my views on
the evolution and growth of African
Literature  There  has  been  an
important departure in my position.
These have to do with the issues of
language.  I've  come  round  to the
view  which  was  articulated  in the
Sixties  by  Obi  Wali  about  the
necessity for African writers to use
our  African  Languages  for  their

emember

that  it warn not
Marx whocreated
workers  and
class  struggles.
Marx learnt  from
history  and  not
history  from
Marx.

in 

creative  expressions.  And  I  have
come to the view that the  literature
written  by  Africans 
foreign
languages 
like  French,  English,
Spanish,  Danish,  etc  falls  into  a
category of its own. It is a misnomer
to  call  it  African  literature.  It  can
only  be  called  Afro-European
literature  generally.  And  more
particularly  Afro-Saxon 
literature
when  the  Literature  is  written  by
Africans  in  English  Language,  or
Afro-French  Literature  which 
is
written  by  Africans 
in  French
language. But, collectively, I would
call them Afro-European  literature.
According to the new view, African
Literature is that literature written by
Africans  in African  languages  like
the Yoruba, Igbo, Hausa, Swahili,
Gikuyu,  etc,  languages  which  are
indigenous  to Africa.

GR:  Now,  what  of  in  terms
of  the  African  revolution?  How
would you  assess African  writers?
Or  rather,  what  do  you  think  that
the African  writers  have  achieved
in terms of African  revolution?

N G U G I: Well,  I cannot talk
about the African writers as a whole
since  they  hold  different  positions
vis-xi-vis the African  revolution, etc.
But, on the whole, I think they have
made an  important contribution  to
all the cultural emancipations of the
people. Although often written in a
foreign language, it is still a literature
that reflects the African environment
and personalities, and history. And
these  are  important.  After  all  our
children  are  now  able  to  read  a
literature  that  on  the whole  shows
the  Africans 
light
instead of the way they  used to be
portrayed 
the  novels  by
foreigners. But those African writers
who  have  tried  to  analyse  the
Africans 
terms  of  classes
obviously  are  very  significant
indeed.  Here,  I  am  thinking  of  a
writer like Osmane Sembene whose
books,  especially  Gods  Bits  of
Wood  have  contributed  a 
lot
towards  our  understanding  of  the
struggle  for  total  liberation  of  the
Africans.  GR

in  a  positive 

in 

in 

African Quarterly
on the  Am
VtLI/NOJI