1 Marvin Zalman March 28, 2003 Fred Honhart, interviewer Honhart: It's March 28th, 2003. I'm Fred Honhart and I'm here with Marvin Zolman and Marvin. As you can see, we are going to tape record this. Do you have your permission to do so? Zalman: Speaker 1 Yes, thank you. What I'd like to talk to you about is our mutual friend Ralph Turner. But before we start that, I'd like a little background about your. Upbringing in education. So where were you born and where did you? Speaker 2 Go to school. I'm from New York City. I went to Cornell University after I graduated from Cornell in 1963. I went to. Brooklyn Law school. I graduated in 1966 and in 1966 I graduated, took the bar exam, passed it. Got married. My wife and I, Greta had taken tests earlier for the Peace Corps, and later that year we found ourselves in Nigeria. In the Peace Corps teaching law while I was there actually towards the end of my term, I I was just Willy nilly assigned to teach criminal law and criminal procedure. And I started because I was bored. It wasn't a lot to do in northern Nigeria. Started researching what I was teaching. And the variety of ways and. At the some time before coming home, Greta noticed an ad for something I had never heard of. A school of criminal justice at State University of New York at Albany. So we figured that having had a child born there, maybe we'd have an easy year back in the states in Albany rather than the rigors of law practice. New York and I entered the School of Criminal Justice at Albany in 69. And in 1971, I had the masters on the way to. Getting a PhD. And we were looking to to move on. So I took a job at MSU. That's how I got into criminal justice to make A to make it short and. Speaker 1 How did you come to MSU? What was the background of getting here? Speaker 2 Well, I just applied to several for several positions and the one that seemed most attractive was was at MSU. I I interviewed here in the spring of 71 I and and we decided to come out. Speaker 1 Do you remember the people who you interviewed with? Speaker 2 I was interviewed by Ralph because Art Branstetter was on sabbatical. So he was he was the man who who was in charge of the department, was acting chair. And I remember when I came up for the interview, actually, Greta and I. Had the I guess the semester was either over or it was during 2 a break, it might have been during a spring. We had a daughter, Amy, and I believe we visited her parents in Miami, so we were spending a week in Miami, and that's when I got the call from MSU. And I flew up to East Lansing. I remember going from Miami. It was freezing up here. It was spring time. Now it must have been during a spring break. So let's say it's March or April. I couldn't believe how cold it was. And I remember coming back and telling Greta. I was interviewed by a guy who chain smoked cigars. Speaker 1 Right, right. Speaker 2 My first memory of Ralph. But you know, it went well and. We came out, I guess in in July. I also have a very strong memory of Ralph because, you know, we were just grad students. Essentially, we packed up our belongings in a U-Haul with the car latched on in the back and. While looking for an apartment, so Ralph and Arnell, as we had mentioned at lunch, I think had gone a short trip to. To Taiwan, I believe, and they very generously made made their house, put their house at our disposal. So for our first, I don't know, 2-3 weeks maybe it was a month by in East Lansing, Greg and I lived at the Turners residence was a wonderful, wonderful house and it was a. It was a very special treat and we found an apartment that Alchemist Road and then a couple of years later and. Purchased the house. Speaker 1 Like you at lunch, you told us the story. Tell us again. What you said about Ralph? Speaker 2 I won't. I won't do my diet like the brown accent, but Ralph was showing us around the house as a as a New York City kid living in a house with something kind of amazing. I lived in apartments all my life. And the House, of course, was built on the Frank Lloyd Wright model. As I learned more about that later. But he was very proud of the the brick that he had from the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo. The first Imperial Hotel, I guess. Or maybe the only one I'm not. An architecture. And he had it in sort of like a little shrine tucked away in a. In a well, it's sort of a niche fireplace. It was very attractive, or at least a niche, an architectural niche in the a living room or a den. And he, he said Zalman says if this if a fire breaks out and this house starts burning down, the first thing you do is you get this brick out. And when it's secure, you can go back and get your. Kid and your wife. So he clearly made it. You know, he made it pretty plain that that was a pretty. Valuable object to him. Speaker 1 How how did you interact with him your first year here? Was he? You said he was gone for a while. Speaker 2 No, no, no. That was only for for the summer. Speaker 1 For the summer, right? Speaker 2 So that I I was at MSU from 71 to 1980 and at the end of the. Spring, Winter or spring semester in 1980 I went to MSU. And we were quite friendly and I was quite close to around throughout that period. You probably recall the, the, the, the dinner where I sort of made that joke about him being my rabbi at the at MSU and I gave him that yamaka and everybody cracked up. Yeah, I 3 mean we, I just, I was always sort of fascinated by what he did. I can. I can remember when we were still at Olds Hall. I don't remember when we moved to the present quarters of the school which is in. Modern building that it's. Right. We're on the top floor of of olds hall. And I had a room all the way at the end, which is, I guess, where Ray La Grande was. He had. Left, I'm trying to remember I actually I. Might have replaced. No, I was the replacement for Frank Day. Who is? If you ever want to get into the history of the school, he's he's quite a character. Very nice man and. Speaker 1 Right. Speaker 2 Trying to think whether I was immediately put into this very large office at the end of the hall. Or whether that happened shortly thereafter, because within a short period of time, Ray La Grande, who was the other attorney on staff, left to take a job as I think chief of Police and Miami Beach, FL. And that's when Sultan was hired, either immediately or within a year. So I was down at the end of the hall with Ralph, and I remember sitting there one day reading and I heard a. Gun go off. And I got up and walked around and he was on a platform firing a pistol or a revolver into a, you know, long metal tank with. Batting materials that would capture the bullet for inspection. And I thought it was rather rather odd most departments you didn't usually hear guns popping off, but he explained some of the basics of a bullet analysis to me and some of the basic terms candlers and lands and grooves and. You know, told me a little bit about his work. I thought it was just fascinating. Having lived there we were. We were friendly with Ralph and Arnell and you know he was very hospitable to all faculty and to junior faculty. And he'd often have people over for. For drinks and, you know, trying to create a help to create a social atmosphere. Of course there. Was also a very big difference in age. So you know, it wasn't exactly within our with the the age group that we were hanging around with, you know people. With young kids. And the like. Speaker 1 Do you remember any particular about Ralph as far as a teacher? Speaker 2 My recollection is that he taught only the criminalistics classes. And not outside there. And so he had a lot of graduate students and and very specialized students. Very popular. They really loved them. He was very good with the foreign students. That's I had mentioned Singh and and who's at Grambling now and? I'm blocking his name, man, at the fact he's he's made quite a name for himself. Publishing about police Indian. I you'll have to forgive. Me. I sometimes blank. Out on names of people I really know well, so that that that does that does happen. He was he was very modest about his own, his own attainments. And you know, over the years things came out about him that were really, you know, amazing and astounding and. So, I mean, he wasn't the sort of person who would sort of open up. And, I mean, he was very friendly, very cordial and the great race. But you know, not not so forthcoming with things about him, about himself. But you know, over the years, I I, you know, learned about his love of architecture, for example, how he was a a student of and correspondent with Frank Lloyd Wright. I think at one point. When we were there, maybe it was upon his retirement, he wanted to spend a year in Taliesen in the West. I don't think he did that, but you know, I discovered, for example, that he had with his own hands done a lot of the. Construction on his own house. Except you know, I remember when I bought 4 my first house and I was a little nervous about that. He talked about his own feelings of nervousness when they bought the property on. The Hewitt Rd. Hewlett Road, right, right by the tracks and the. They had the guy come out with a backhoe and they dugout the, you know, the the they dug out the place where the, you know, foundation. Was going to go. And they said I stood there looking at this hole in the ground and was wondering what was going. Happen, but it's it's just an amazing house. Maybe it's more Frank Lloyd Wright than the Frank Lloyd Wright. That's two or three, two or three houses down. It's, you know that that alone was an amazing accomplishment, and it showed a lot of the. The depth and talent he had, he was a he was an excellent photographer and he had a lot of his. He had a lot of his pictures up and. Clearly did very good work along those lines. He certainly from all of his travels had a, you know, wonderful knowledge of the world. Gleaned by, you know, personal experience. You know, I never thought of it exactly this way, he. He reminded me a little bit of my my father, my, my, who was not a professor, a professional. I believe he was an accountant in the old country. In terms of being an essentially cheerful person, very upbeat personality and a bit, a bit unassuming, but very sharp in terms of sort of understanding, you know, the way of the world and and and I think he was very good on reading people. Not at all interested. In in, say, say university politics, departmental politics, there were there were a few, you know, as probably less than than most other places when I was there in the 70s. But you know a certain amount of politics. And Ralph was, I think, more interested in his in his own work. And teaching and scholarship. But you know, he knew, you know. Who was who and what? What people were about, and I always very much treasured his his friendship. I don't know. Funny, funny stories sometimes. Since I lived not far from him for the first two or three years. In the apartments on Okemos Rd. I don't know if sometimes if I had car problems he would pick me up, but I know that once we went he picked me up. We went to campus together. It wasn't common, but it was. It was on Election Day. And I remember we both went to vote. And there was an elderly gentleman who was who was there, who was one. Of the original. Residents out in at the MSU properties when it was taken over by well around the the the area where where Hannah lived and Ralph seemed to know all about the the history of the. The road is named after felt that. It no, no. No, it's but, but it was sort of a crotch at the old guy who? Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 I had a life estate. I sold his property to MSU and I was allowed to live on the House for the rest of his life and he was reputed to occasionally shoot off a shotgun at MSU students who would come around and harass them. I don't know exactly how true that was, but he certainly had had a good knowledge of those of local. Local lore, because I came to to MSU at the tail end of Ralph Celestria's career, he retired towards the end. I I forget the exact year, but the Jay. Siegel had come on, boy. OK. And I know. The whole field of criminal justice was changing. In the in the 40s, when you know MSU developed into its, I mean I know the school goes back to the 30s, but in some ways the program was really created after World War Two and Branstetter Turner, another man who I really loved very much, Bob Scott. Before he went back to corrections and then and then came back. UM. You know, back in those days, the few schools of police administration made Criminalistics a core part of the of the program. I think that was true and certainly in the Berkeley program and. I guess I'm not sure how far back the Chicago Circle 5 University of Illinois, Chicago goes, but they had a criminalistics program. And I think in the 70s, you know, by the 70s, the criminal justice revolution had had started and there was there were question marks about the about whether or not the criminalistics program should be kept. I was a junior professor and assistant. Professor, I was busy working on my dissertation. I don't think I got involved in that too much, but it certainly was an issue. And I can't say that I'm Privy to exactly how it all worked out. I think Vic Strecker may have had a lot to do with with. Ensuring that the program would continue issues of funding, it's a major expense and and whether or not it should be an integral part of the CJ program or quasi independent. I gather now it has some I I'm not sure exactly how it's connected to the School of Criminal Justice. But I know it has a lot of independence as it probably should. Speaker 1 I've just recently instituted a graduate a Masters program and having. Tremendous success in terms of applicants and numbers. Speaker 2 Right, right. So I I don't know if that was much of A concern. Of Ralphs he. We didn't talk about that a lot. I know there was this, you know, once he he said that he didn't exactly say I'm slowing down. He said something to the effect though maybe would be around. 74, thereabouts that you know, 20 years before he could have done a lot more. In the lab. So I think there was there was a sense that there was a need to bring to bring somebody else in who was who was younger at the same time, at least one. Event that took place in the early 70s indicated. His stature in the field, he was one of several. And Vic, I think would could tell you more about this, one of several criminalists who did the analysis of the of the bullets in the civil case coming out of the Robert Kennedy assassination. And the fact that he was selected as one around the nation to participate in. Judicially established experiment, I think spoke very well to to his credibility, but I'd say that by the time I met him, I think probably his great work was done and he would talk about the development of the breathalyzer and the those Schenley was it The Who? Seagram I think was. Whoever gave him the the tank car of whiskey? Speaker 1 Probably with Seagram. Speaker 2 It sort of made me wish that I was a, you know, at MSU and the four 40s go to a free party and get a little drunk for for the for songs. Speaker 1 For research and science. Speaker 2 So I I'd say that you know, my own background was in law the the the new field of criminal justice that was just developing. I was in the second class at at SUNY Albany, had very much a social science approach to to to. Analyzing the phenomenon of criminal justice agencies behaviors, criminology, and the like. And I didn't think very much about Criminalistics knew very, very little about it. When I came out to MSU and the associations with Ralph sort of made me appreciate as an outsider, the the value of the of the field. I can't say that. I thought it was absolutely essential. I mean one of the. Things I would go around. That most cases are solved not by scientific crime detection, but by interrogation and and ordinary police work. From what I said at lunch about my interest in wrongful convictions, it really is absolutely essential field and 6 probably becoming more important now I think as tools of detection become more refined as. Departments become more professional and are better able to collect information. Crime scene analysts are more routine and more standardized. The work is becoming very important and certainly in the in the law as well, so. I think Criminalistics has a tremendous role to play, not only in the the obvious job of catching, or at least confirming the guilt of the suspects, but to exonerate people. That's that's really. Speaker 1 Did Ralph ever talk to you about his stuttering problem as a time? Speaker 2 Yeah, after a few years, I mean. Not the sort of thing he would he would mention. You know, he had this this sort of long, slow draw, sort of an amusing, an amusing way of of talking. And you know, it seemed like an interesting speech characteristic that everybody notice, and it's kind of easy to to, you know, mimic. But yeah, at some point I think probably if I recall, it was at his, at his house. He he mentioned that he had had a very severe stuttering problem. He he indicated that his he went to a psychoanalyst and I guess there were, you know, many many different theories and schools of thought about stuttering. Over the years and with some bemusement, his analyst would was in correspondence with Freud. I guess this was in the 30s. Speaker 1 Smiley Blanton was the guys name and he was in New York City. Speaker 2 I I didn't know who it was, so he didn't dwell on it at great length, but but he did indicate that he had overcome overcome the problem, and then that made me appreciate a little bit more that sort of deliberateness of his, of his speech. You know, an interesting and interesting part of him. Remember once. I think it was. I was an olds hall and you know Ralph would come in sometimes. He loved to work on his own property and had a riding tractor and had the Peach trees. And we discovered that that when we were first here, which surprised me, I mean, I I didn't think of Peach trees in the northern northern climate. You know, if I if I worked out in the yard, I just wear paradigm areas and Ralph wore this sort of like like this like a custodians outfit, you know, green, green or brown matching jacket and pants. Speaker 1 And brown. Speaker 2 So, so, you know, he looked like somebody was hired to to clean up your property. I think he was dressed that way once on a. Saturday on campus, I we might have run into Walter Adams, who was. Kind of kind of. Joking with them, as if as if Ralph was a Rube. And no, I liked Walter. But, and I think it was Walter. I could. It could. Have been somebody. Speaker 1 Else, but it sounds like Walter enough. Speaker 2 But I got, you know, I got this impression that, that, that people didn't, you know, they really did think of Ralph as something of a hazy and just. Either it was they were joking or they really didn't know how accomplished he really was. So, and, you know, he'd laugh it off at the IT didn't bother at all. Speaker 1 7 I suspect in Walters case he knew since they were in Cherry Lane together when they first came here and. Well, maybe. But Walter also had his own ego problems. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Well, there certainly were a lot of characters at MSU Lash LaRue. Speaker 1 Right. Speaker 2 Adams was polished, but he was a bit of a character. Speaker 1 Very much injured. Speaker 2 Bob Scott was not a person who was a character as such, but a very a very deep and unusual man. Speaker 1 Could you talk a little bit about Bob Scott? Speaker 2 I have very fond memories of of Bob. I only got to meet him after he retired from the Department of Corrections. He was re hired by Branstetter. I believe it was by brands that are to teach a few classes and corrections on a part time basis, and Bob, you know, the shock of white hair and the well what I got to know was first of all, as as we well remember since we used to lunch together, he was this wonderful punster. Ohh yes, and he would tell puns and he would get us all going. And once you hear some puns, you start chiming in. So he would have us all punning. UM. You know there is something about Bob that actually does relate to Ralph, but let me let me get to that and then you know I learned that that that Bob was a lawyer. He was a magistrate in upstate New York, met Branstetter during World War Two, became intrigued by this idea of the School of Police Science and Art, talked him into coming out to. To MSU, or maybe it was still MSC then, right after the war, and he participated in the in the department, a very humanistic man who believed very much in rehabilitation and helping juveniles and went to work for the Department of Corrections for many years. And I had quite a few connections with the corrections in the late 70s. As I took a sabbatical, went to work for the Supreme Court to develop sentencing guidelines, and that involved me a lot with the corrections people they referred to Scott as the as the conscience of the Department of Corrections. Here's here's the the connection. Bob never mentioned his religion. I think he had a little he was Episcopal, very devout Episcopal, but he never, you know, he never mentioned it in a very deep part of him. And it's not something he preached to talked about. It was just something. About, you know he lived it. I think that was true with Ralph as well. I only learned at his funeral that he was deeply involved with his church and you know, I I sort of refer to them as Christian gentleman. It never came up in conversation, but very, very decent. Decent people. Very helping, always supportive of others. Friendly and very open minded, certainly in terms of. Speaker 1 You know. Speaker 2 Well, Ralph is a world traveler and just sort of very easy, easygoing about taking people as they as they come. We had a lot of foreign students at MSU and I think Ralph played a role with a lot 8 of. Them he sort. Of had no problems with, you know, cultures, cultural differences and. He may have had. I I think he played a a social role in the department, a certain amount of social leadership is important. France theaters would have a party once a year, which is, you know, I guess appropriate for a for a director, but Ralph would. He would have like impromptu parties for junior faculty and I think he tried to get people together to talk to one another. Early on. When I first came on, there were some junior faculty. There was a bill Hagerty, who later became police chief in in Grand Rapids, I believe. And he was there for a couple of years and then moved on. And there was an African American guy for the life of me, I can't remember his name. Who taught for a couple of years? And then I think became the a police chief or the police chief of the Virgin Islands, or a town in the Virgin Islands. Service and federal service. I remember Ralph would have us over sometimes and. You know, you're the future of of MSU and I think you know, it was a it was a very nice, very nice. Trying to think whether at those lunchtime you. Know you, you might. Remember this better. Who was a regular? Ralph was a regular Lou Lou regular. Speaker 1 Well, Lou Radlett, Bob Scott. Speaker 2 Bob Scott, you and I used to use and quite frequently and. Speaker 1 You and I. Speaker 2 From well, there was mall Walter Malman. And Paris? The guy who worked on the line. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paris, right? Speaker 2 He worked in the. Library of administration and and Mladen. Speaker 1 No, he worked in the library. And Melon and Kaplan. And who was the guy in financial aid? Speaker 2 There's more. Oh, the heaviest. OK, bye, comma. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, Henry dykema. Speaker 2 You see, you you you start pumping me. And I'll remember. Oh, the the Indian student whose name I couldn't remember before, was Dilip Das Das. He's at Plattsburgh now. And I think both he and saying, I mean I think I would recommend that you chat with them as as foreign students, you know who felt very welcomed by by Ralph. Speaker 1 Right. Speaker 2 He go out of his way to sort of. To sort of bring them, bring them. Speaker 1 Yes, that was sort of his hallmark. As well, let's stop here for just a second. 9 [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Speaker 2 OK, this is side 2 hanhardt interviewing Salman Turner and the Criminal Justice Department. The other person you mentioned, who who was at the CJ department for a very long time as our brand starter. And if you could just share some of your impressions of him and also if you have any thoughts about like how he and Ralph work together. Speaker 1 Well, he and Ralph went all the way back and. I think they, you know, certainly had a lot of a lot of respect for for one another. Art was something of a of a controversial figure over the years, I guess I know that in the late 60s the the. Department went through what a lot of places went through in the US with sort of younger and more radical professors sort of challenging, challenging people at the top and. People like Ray Galvin were were at at MSU the time and and they left and I think I got to MSU after a lot of that. Speaker 2 Let's see. Speaker 1 The turmoil had sort of quieted down. My guess your you ought to confirm this with with Strecker. You know is is that people who wanted the department to change in into, you know, more of a I would call them a modern up-to-date criminal justice program. We're very frustrated, art. Would be a fighter when challenged. I mean I'm. I could see that but but also also I mean Vic, Vic made that clear. I had the sense that within all of that, Ralph was probably a moderating force. I didn't want to get involved in playing politics. I don't think he would ever be, you know, vindictive towards towards anyone, but, you know, favored some stability in the program. I I have to tell you that I was. With the overall nature and tone of the of the MSU program, Sunni Albany was the was like the first was the, you know. I think the first PhD program of the new kind of of of criminal Justice Department that I came out of, that I very much appreciated. I came to value what MSU had to offer. Albany was more of an academic approach to things the Masters program. At at MSU was very serious about providing A cadre of highly trained professional administrators and policing in other areas, and I think they did that very well. And I think. I very rapidly came to say, yeah, this is this is important and I think I participated in it, for example, by recommending that the graduate course not be a criminal procedure course, but an administrative law class. I don't know if they're still doing it at MSU, but I brought it to Wayne with me, so I, you know, I came to. Feel as if the the the MSU model, if I can call it that had a lot to offer, but I still thought that the. Overall, academic strength of the department as an as a as a CJ depart as a as a PhD producing department left much to be desired. I don't want to go into the details of that. But you know, to some extent, you know brands that are was well, you know that's what he had built and that certainly wasn't going to change until he left. And I was it's it wasn't my personality. To to try to rock that boat. I was very much concerned just with getting getting tenure, which was a a bit rocky because I. Took all the time. That was a lot. Of for me to finish my PhD, which? I finally did. You know, Branstetter was, was was there. He was a bit more. I didn't have that much interaction with him. There were. There were some interesting young younger folks on the faculty. I was pretty close to Larry Hoover, very friendly with him. That was more of the traditional policing model. You remember Lorenz kiss Bob Lawrence 10 SKUs. He's he's still in the field. Dave callenish. There was some interesting, you know, people my age and you know, we had some interesting. Interactions, you know, we pretty much, you know, did our thing. We were junior faculty. I I got along fine with with, with Branstetter and but you know I did. Look forward to the day when when things would when things would change and I mean it was clear that art would would retire at some point. I think it was very sad for the school that art hung. Until until Strecker was frustrated, he clearly was on a track to to be a director and I think. Would have moved the school along a lot faster and I don't know if I I would have stayed. I mean, I left the MSU for a variety of reasons, but I I'd say that within all of that, Ralph was older. He was a moderating force. You know, there were people like he and and and and and Lou Radlett, you know, dedicated teachers, good scholars, you know, offered a sense of stability and and and relatively calm department and I thought. You know, in retrospect, having been through, you know, my own stint as chair and ups and downs, that there's a lot of value to that. But it's also the case that that as a criminalist, Ralph was sort of a little. Bit on the outside. In terms of issues of curriculum and and the like. You know, there's something. I had forgotten it's coming back to me now. The first year I was at MSU, maybe the second year we had a retreat at Gull Lake. I don't know if we did that for two years in a row or just one one year, but it was a serious attempt to rethink and think through the whole curriculum. And I think there were changes that were made that made the curriculum less a police administration and more a true criminal justice curriculum within more even balance among. Corrections and juvenile justice some changes made to law. I thought I always thought that the undergraduate program should be more of a general social science general liberal arts education, leaving the Masters program to be the more professional. I think at those meetings one was at Gull Lake and I think another one was at was at Oakland University at the they have a Chrysler. I think the Chrysler. Speaker 2 It's a dodge. Something or other hole? Speaker 1 I'm getting the name of. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 It now we did 1-1 year one there and so and so the department was going through the school was going through some serious rethinking of its mission at a time that CJ was changing. I I thought Ralph's role in that was, you know, to provide thoughtful input and not to sort of obstruct, you know, the changes that were made, even though to get back to the point that I had made earlier, the value of talking at some length, as you start to remember stuff. UMUM, even though it would tend to undermine the stature of where Criminalistics was. That's why I think that that Criminalistics was was being sort of pushed into the background. It hung on. Speaker 2 I think there I. Speaker 1 Think there was a time when it when it. You know, it might have been dropped entirely. And and that clearly would have been very important to to, to Ralph. But I think the person right now who probably would have the best sense of what was going on, if you don't have it from him already, it might be worth going back. 11 Speaker 2 To would be Strecker. Yeah, I'm going to. Do another interview with him. Speaker 1 Well, you might want to ask him about that because. Speaker 2 I will. Speaker 1 Because he had. A good I mean. Vic is was a man, both of a commanding presence. It's and and and a very deep intellect, you know, with, with a, with a good appreciation of the practicalities of police work and and the sort of professional school approach, very interesting and complex man. And I think he may have had something to do with ensuring that that criminalistics would be preserved, but Ralph never, you know, sort of beat his chest and and made made a big stink about that. So I mean I. Didn't think about it much at the time, but it was certainly a challenge to everything that you know, he had worked for over the years and stood for and. Work towards developing and I have to I have to agree that maintaining the program at MSU is is a very positive and fine thing. Speaker 2 You mentioned one other mutual colleague. Maybe you could talk a little bit about and that's Lou. Speaker 1 Radlett Lou is a wonderful guy. Ralph was more of a limpy and observer of the world and all of its foibles. Lou was a true believer. He was worked for the NCJ used to be the National Council of Christians and Jews. Now it's the. National Council of something that sort of was All in all inclusive. And so a very, very liberal, you know, a real believer in, in police community outreach he had that. Police community relations was was his strong suit. Very dedicated teacher, very warm man. I think Lou interacted less with the faculty because he had eight wonderful children. He was. And he was always he was always, you know, going to their basketball games. And and the like, but. But just, you know, as a nicer person, he was always. He was always at in his office. This and work that at the university I remember. He would have seminars at his at his home, evening seminars with grad students at his home, and I remember attending a few of those. They were. They were very nice. My sense was that his relations with with Ralph were very cordial. I did not have the sense that they were close friends. I could be. Wrong about that. I mean, you know, I was a youngster and. I don't know. I don't keep people social calendars. And I think the Turners had had a very wide circle of friends in MSU, but arnela of course, you know, had had people that she knew through ATL Ralph was involved with the Baker St. So there were others on at MSU who were involved in that. That was never. I was never, you know. In that at all. But I I think the the Rattlers were more like home folks and and just didn't, didn't have, you know, dinner parties. And and things like that. I'm not sure where you know. I think they just worked in different areas. I I I don't know if there was much in the way of intellectual exchanges and in fact, I'm I'm promos years that we had these really entertaining. Wonderful lunches where there would be all kinds of chatter and talk. It usually was not about shops, it would be a certain amount of talk about what we were doing, but it was sort of this and that world affairs or. So I maybe part of the part of my my feeling about about. A certain kind of a spark missing at MSU. Was that there weren't enough? Intellectual or academic connections where people were working 12 together on things. A lot of the junior faculty came and left. I mentioned some who did, and I think I don't know if I think Larry must have left before I did because Vic. Speaker 2 MHM, MHM. Speaker 1 Vic went to Sam Houston. Around 7576 and then I think he brought Hoover in. Within a year. So there was a. There was a certain amount of a certain amount of turnover. Falcons came in. I I thought that the that MSU could have done a lot better in terms of who they were bringing in and. You know the the general approach and. Ralph would have been in his 60s at that. At that point, his lab was cut back. This is going back to Gull Lake. That's that's you know him him talking about I mentioned this earlier in the interview. You know, getting a little older and a lab requires a lot of physical work. It's not as if he had a a large staff of assists. And the lab itself needed updating. I think he I think he recognized and was not at all resentful of the fact that you needed somebody like Jay Siegel, a younger person, to come in. To to relocate the lab. I mean, being on the top floor of Baker Hall probably was not the place for it. That needed. Probably needed a better setup for for things that labs need, and it did eventually move into one of the natural science buildings, just as I was. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think chemistry. Down the basement, right. Right. Speaker 1 You know, I mean, just just Ralph just provided this, this wonderful, this wonderful model, everybody loved them. I'm sure you've you've spoken to Tim Biden. It's been not yet. Well, Tim came on. After I was here for a couple of years. Oh, someone else you could talk to would be Jack Green. Jack is the director of the Criminal Justice School, or College at Northeastern University. Jack had an office on one side of me. Tim had an office on. The other side. Jack was more of a young Turk and I think he was very frustrated and left, but with all of the frustrations at, you know. The the general, you know, intellectual tone of what was happening at the at the department is here is in that era. I mean Ralph was always popular with everyone. And I mean, it was not just being a nice guy. I mean, he he had obvious depth and sort of, you know, knew a lot. And I think that was well respected by Jack, by Tim. I think Tim. Had a lot of affection for him, but again, we all came in in the 70s and that really was sort of the the the tail end of of his academic career. Well, he still had these other interests. You've spoken to hudzik, I'm sure. Speaker 2 Yes, we have an interview. Speaker 1 Because because Ralph had, you know, in terms of all of the his protein in nature. I mean, he had I think he had developed the England. Speaker 2 Program, yes, he. Speaker 1 Did and then. I mean that's that's in terms of accomplishments. He had these. Very interesting connections with people in the British police. I met John Stead at his house. In fact, if you haven't spoken to people in England not yet, well, I don't know if Sted is still alive. I'll tell you who you are to talk to. Definitely call Richard Terrell TERIL. 13 Speaker 2 I believe he. Was on campus and we he used to come to the table, didn't. Speaker 1 He no, Richard was not a faculty member here. He was a grad student. He got his, you know? Speaker 2 Oh, I know, because. Speaker 1 He got his PhD. He worked with us. Well, he got his PhD in history. Yes, under that classical, the woman who did early modern England, she was apparently a legend in her time. I didn't. I never met her. Well, in any event, probably Marjorie Gassner. Yeah, I think so. Right, gessner. Terrell Terrell, you know, the time when jobs were collapsing in history, he wanted to stay in academics and retooled himself as a as a CJ person while he came over to the school. He and I were very close in age as just a. Couple of years older than he was and we really clicked. I mean, intellectually it was just like. That he went off to Saint Cloud when I went to MSU to Wayne. Excuse me. I hired Rick and he was with us for four or five years. He's now at Georgia State. And I think he will. He will appreciate because his specialization is is International Criminal justice and he's in England a lot. He'll know some of the people who Ralph knew if John I. Don't know if. Steve is still alive, but you want to talk to him. You also want to talk to me. Just retired. Call the criminal Justice Department at Macomb Community College. There was a professor there who was who was a. Scotland Yard. Terrible at the man's name. I've only met him once, I think. But Ralph had these folks from England in and out. I mean, these were very. Very accomplished people. So he really had a very strong connection. He may have had. A lot to do with this, with the school's international connections and of course, MSU was always very promotive. Of international programs and bringing in foreign students. But that's something that probably ought to ought to be explored. My God, there are people all over the world who've had them as. Then and then they would invite him to their countries, right? The day when I, the night that I gave him the yamaka part of the joke, was that he was going to Saudi Arabia the next day. And so he was joking about wearing it there. But it's certainly says something about Ralph that a grad student that he had. Here would would then, you know, really appreciate what they got from him and he would be invited to to lecture and at at other places around the world. Again, you probably could have documentary sources again. Vic probably would be the the main source of information worth talking to a couple of times. You know, because I don't know how long they were colleagues, I'm not sure when Strucker came as a faculty member, he was in policing. For a while and then. Speaker 2 Right. And they. But it may go back to the 50s. Yeah, right. I think it goes back to it. Speaker 1 So that that really is quite a quite a long time. I would certainly recommend talking to Larry Hoover, but again, he might have had him as a professor so he could speak both from the student as well as the the faculty perspective. When I was talking with Larry and with the Gary Cordner, you know I mentioned your project, Gary, I think was a student probably worth calling. Him he might have. Some anecdotes sees at Eastern Kentucky University. Speaker 2 Is Hoover there too? 14 Speaker 1 No, no Hoover is it? No, no, Larry Hoover, is it Sam Houston? Speaker 2 Ohh he's at Sam, OK? Speaker 1 Right, right. Look, I get online, the American Society for Criminology has a has a good membership list on its website. It's a SC41. Speaker 2 I will. Speaker 1 There are so many ASCs, I guess. Anyway, you just get on Google and you'll get into it no time at all. Unfortunately, the ACJS membership directory is not online. They keep saying they're working on it, but you can you can sort of tack into people and use some. Kind of a snowball. Well, but I think that to get a good rounded picture of Ralph, you if you can at all, you'd want to get some some recollections from people in foreign countries. And that's I really, you know, don't know what those connections are, but I think hudzik would be a good a good source. Of course, among old timers at MSU I. Would think that. Doing this again. And I just I just at in Boston, a student of his did a paper. You heard before how I slept with me was the guy who who does the polygraph stuff? Speaker 2 Frank Horvath? Frank Horvath. Frank. Speaker 1 You definitely want to talk to Frank. Cause Frank, I think was a student here. I mean, I would talk to all the old times. Yeah, I will. I think you probably know more than I think Vince Hoffman probably wouldn't. Because Vince wasn't. Associated with the school earlier and he came on some years after, but I think Frank Horvath would have some good recollections. I mentioned some of the people who have been on the program earlier. Have you ever gotten a hold of Dave Epstein? No, I don't know where the hell he is now. Dave was a grad student when I was here. Very interesting kind of guy. He might have had more to do with rattle that. And people in policing. Epstein had was in the military and he became police chief in Savannah, GA. And I I don't know, you know what happened to him after that. Oh, I'll tell you. Who would know. There's a very famous chief in the US. His name. Is Ruben Greenberg? Ruben is is is a African American Jew. His grandfather I think, was Jewish and he's kept the faith and he's written. I mean he's he's often. Written about in the national press, he's very innovative. Speaker 2 Name sounds to me. Speaker 1 He's a very innovative cop and he got a lot of. Techniques from Dave and they were doing problem solving policing before it was was kind of famous, but Greenberg might be able to put you in touch with Epstein, and Dave might have some, because I think Dave was a student here. Before he came back as a Masters student. I am not sure. After all, I. Know he wouldn't have much to say about. Ralph, you really want to go? Back back into the into the 50s and 60s. Strecker is going to be the one who can who can suggest other for other folks to talk to. I don't know if there are any. Historians of criminalistics. I haven't run into any, but maybe I will. You 15 know, in terms of the history of science, I think that's one field, but my guess hasn't been done very well, not from what I've seen. If at all I mean, I guess the field really started in the 20s and 30s with only a handful of people, Paul Kirk and. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 And so Ralph really was, you know, in, you know, the first or second generation and. Right. Matthews, who was his mentor and. And the field is kind of diverse, you know, I mean, because it's an applied field of chemistry and physics and now with the DNA, they all have different intellectual or, you know, scientific bases. Speaker 2 What do you have any final thoughts about Ralph or if you want to end with? Speaker 1 Well, uh, you know, certainly within his field he made important contributions because it's not my field. And because it's so different from General CJ, it's hard for me to speak about how important that he was, but I gather he he really. I think it's just a, you know, a wonderful. Man, he was. He was. You know, very sharp, had a had a. Jovial's not the right word, but you know he had a there was always a a sense of humor right behind, you know, everything and. Speaker 2 It it was just just. Speaker 1 A pleasure to be in a department with a with a man like him. And you know, I guess it's sort of like like any, like any friendship, you know, there were. There were all, you know, 1000 little moments that you don't recall anymore. You what you're left with is sort of this general residue as being here was a lot better because because Ralph was around. And folks like that. If I can think of any any other specifics I'll you know I'll give you. Speaker 2 A call. Well, thank you very much. That was a pleasure.