1 Arthur Brandstatter April 11, 2001 Jeff Charnley, interviewer Charnley: Today is Wednesday, April 11, the year 2001. We're in East Lansing. I'm Jeff Charnley interviewing Professor Arthur F. Brandstatter for the MSU Oral History Project for the Sesquicentennial. It's coming up in four years, in the year 2005. Professor Brandstatter, you can see we have a tape recorder here. You give us permission to tape you? Brandstatter: Right. I do. Charnley: Okay. I'd like to start first with some questions about your general educational and personal background. Where were you born and educated in high school? Brandstatter: I was born in McKees Rocks, Pennsylvania, and my folks moved to Michigan when I was about two years old. So I don't remember much about McKees Rocks. We lived in Ecorse. We moved to Ecorse. My dad worked for the boat-building firm in River Rouge, Michigan, which is an adjacent community to Ecorse. I went to Ecorse High School and graduated from Ecorse High School. Charnley: What year did you graduate? Brandstatter: 1933. That's a long time ago. 2 Charnley: During the Depression. Brandstatter: Right. Charnley: What was your interest? Did you work outside the home? Brandstatter: Yes. I did. I knew I was going to school. I'd had offers. I was an athlete, and one of the local coaches recommended to people who were inquiring about athletics if they should recruit me because I was a pretty good athlete. Anyway, that's what happened. I finished Ecorse High School and knew I was going on to college somewhere, and I decided on Michigan State. It would be interesting, I think, for some people at least to know that I was recruited by John Hannah and John Combs [phonetic] who was the baseball coach at the time. Both of them showed up at my home. My dad at that time was in a neighborhood grocery and meat market, and that's the business we were in for most of my youth. They showed up there and talked to me, and I was impressed with what they had to say. John Hannah was not secretary or president, obviously, in those days, but he was in the Poultry Extension Service, agriculture. I had no idea, of course, that he'd ultimately end up president of the university, but he did and it turned out to be a very good contact for me. [Laughter] Charnley: An early one. Did you play all sports in high school? Brandstatter: In high school I played football and basketball and baseball and a little bit of track. I was always active in athletics. Charnley: So you were recruited for baseball? 3 Brandstatter: No. For football. Charnley: Had you been to the campus before their arrival on your doorstep? Brandstatter: No. No, I had not. No, I had not. University of Detroit was making really an effort to get me to go there. I hadn't visited any campus at that time. So I listened to what they had to say and made a decision later. Ended up working at the Great Lakes Steel Mill to earn some money. Then that following fall, I enrolled here at Michigan State. Charnley: Do you remember anything about the campus when you first arrived? Any early impressions? Brandstatter: Well, it was relatively small, relatively small and very friendly, I thought at that time. I guess that's one of the things that interested me. At the time I met the coaches. Charles [W.] Bachman was the head coach, and Tom [H.] King was an end coach, and the backfield coach was a fellow named Miles Casteel. They were all very cordial and friendly and that's what I remember most about the place, that there was no difficulty, really, in visiting the people and they were willing to do whatever you wanted, you might be interested in, going around at that point in time. Charnley: What positions did you play in football? Brandstatter: I played fullback and that's what I played here. Ended up getting All-American Honors, I might add. Charnley: How many years? 4 Brandstatter: I played three years: 1934, '35, and '36. Charnley: So those years you overlapped. You would have played President [Gerald] Ford? Brandstatter: No. Charnley: Was he earlier? Brandstatter: Yes. One year. We overlapped one year. Charnley: One year. '34, probably. Brandstatter: He's Ann Arbor, University of Michigan. Charnley: What did you study as an undergraduate? Brandstatter: When I came here, I wanted to be in education. I was going to be teacher. During the course of my stay here in Michigan State during, I think it was, my sophomore year I was asked to go to the State Police Barracks. They were right across the street from the campus. Somebody arranged for me to have a room over there. So I got room and board at the State Police Headquarters Building in their facilities. That's what happened. Charnley: It wasn't far from the stadium then either or practice fields. Brandstatter: No. I worked over there. I cleaned the rooms of the detectives who lived in part of 5 the building, including the Commissioner's office, which worked out in my favor over the years. [Laughter] He was a good man to know and was very friendly and very kind to me. Charnley: Who was that? Brandstatter: Commissioner Oscar G. Olander [phonetic]. He was a good friend of the university people, particularly John Hannah and others. Charnley: So you started emptying wastebaskets at the State Police. [Laughter] Brandstatter: Absolutely. Right. Charnley: Like from the bottom up. Brandstatter: They paid us, I think it was, either twenty-five or fifty cents for a room. [Laughter] Charnley: So that was your introduction to police work? Brandstatter: Well, that's the result of being over there. Obviously I was close to the police activity, and once in a while we went out with the state police patrol cars. There was another fellow with me, Ed Jones, who was also interested in the Police Ad [Administration] Program. We knew it was here, but I didn't get interested in pursuing my interest in the Police Ed Program until I ended up getting some experience with the troopers and the state police. Once in a while, as I said, they would ask us to ride with them. We'd go out with them and they'd do whatever they had to do and we'd observe and watch them. Then I got very much interested in law enforcement, and I ended up transferring from the education program to what was then called the 6 School of Police Administration, and I've been in that work all of my life. Charnley: What year was it when you graduated from college? Brandstatter: Yes, '38. Incidentally, it was a five-year course at that time. The university had what they called a year and a half, eighteen months' Field Service Training Program. Charnley: It was like an internship? Brandstatter: Yes. That's exactly what it was, an internship. We were sent out to with the state police and local police, spent six months with the Detroit Police Department, working in various bureaus in the Detroit Department. It was a great experience, and I think it's too bad it had to be eliminated. Ultimately it just cost too much. At that time we were supposed to get a dollar a day, but we never got it. Charnley: After graduation, where did you go to work? Brandstatter: Well, you might recall I was with the Detroit Police Department shortly before we graduated, and I was asked to come back and join the department. Those were days when there weren't many jobs around, obviously, so I took the opportunity and joined the Detroit Police Department. In order to do that, be accepted by them, I had to be a resident of the city. I established residence at the YMCA in downtown Detroit and went to the training academy from there and graduated from that academy and then was assigned to a precinct as a patrolman. I was called a "college cop." Charnley: College cop. Because you had a degree? 7 Brandstatter: Yes, a degree in police administration. Charnley: Your classmates at the academy, were their backgrounds varied or they hadn't gone to school? Brandstatter: Pretty varied. In those days it was primarily high school graduates. They had a few college graduates, I was one of them, who were interested in good-paying jobs, and represented some income for them. We started out at two thousand dollars a year, I might add. [Laughter] Charnley: Were you married at that time? Brandstatter: No, that came later. Charnley: How long did you work at the Detroit Department? Brandstatter: About three years. I earned a commission, obviously, going through the ROTC program here. I was a second lieutenant, and I was ordered to active duty about nine or ten months before the war broke out. I was, of course, a member of the Police Department. I had an opportunity to go to General Motors in their security program, but when they found out I was an officer in the reserve, they weren't interested in me because they knew I would be called to active duty. They had apparently some knowledge about the Detroit Police Department reserve officers being called to active duty, and I was ultimately called to active duty in, I think it was, February 1941, if I recall correctly. 8 Charnley: Before Pearl Harbor. Brandstatter: Yes. Pearl Harbor occurred. Charnley: And Europe was ongoing, yes. Brandstatter: And I was ordered to active duty. The Army Air Corps was one agency in those days, and they subsequently separated, but I was ordered to active duty at Scott Air Force Base. I couldn't understand that, because my training at Michigan State had all been in cavalry and armor. Charnley: Sounds like the Army. Brandstatter: Of course, my wife was concerned. We were married at that time, shortly after I joined the Detroit Police Department. So, anyway, I went on active duty and I told my wife I'd probably be transferred again, because I couldn't imagine why they'd assign me to the Air Force facility, but it turned out that I stayed there for quite a while. Charnley: Did you serve overseas? Brandstatter: I ultimately was sent overseas and became part of the occupation forces in Korea. Charnley: Most of the war you were stateside? Brandstatter: Most of the war I was stateside, right. 9 Charnley: You didn't serve in the Military Police during that time? Brandstatter: No. I was in the armor unit. I was supposed to go to Japan. As a matter of fact, I had an assignment to Osaka, where I would be involved with the other military government officers in establishing police service and other necessary activities in the city. When I got to [Douglas] MacArthur's headquarters, I was reassigned to Korea, and I'd never heard of Korea. [Laughter] Never studied Korea or knew anything about them. So I was assigned to Okinawa for a while with team that was preparing to move into Korea and establish government and provide services that were required in those days. I had to reestablish and reorganize the entire police force with another fellow. We worked under the authority of a full colonel, who drove me up the wall. I never smoked, and I ended up smoking two packs a day. I'll never forget him. Reemer W. Argold [phonetic]. He was a very difficult person. But, anyway, we did what we had to. I stayed there for several months till I got word through my wife that the university and East Lansing were looking for a new police chief. The Commissioner of the State Police, I found out later, had recommended that they find that kid named Brandstatter and hire him. Charnley: So you were in Korea at the time? Brandstatter: I was in Korea, yes. I applied for leave to go back home, and it was denied because I was in what they called a specialist category in the military because of my training. I'd spent six months at Northwestern University studying [unclear] and about three months at the University of Virginia studying military government doctrine. Anybody who signed up for those courses or were assigned to them and completed the training was required to extend their time in the service, so I could have been held several more months or a year. I was a Catholic. Still am. I used to go to church in Korea, and I met a major general, a 10 fellow named General Arnold, who is "Hap" Arnold's, who was Chief of the Air Force, brother. So when they turned me down, I solicited his advice and aid and suggested that he might pull some strings and make sure I was released from active service. I told him what had happened, obviously. And he did, he took an interest in my case, and lo and behold, they released me. I came back to the States and came into--I've forgotten, some post way out in the West, in California or Oregon or somewhere out there. But, anyway, returned to the States and was then sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, where I was relieved from all active duty. Charnley: What was your rank at the end of the war or when you ended your service? Brandstatter: Lieutenant colonel. Charnley: Did you continue on in the reserves? Brandstatter: I continued in the reserve and ended up a full colonel and finally became a general officer, became brigadier general. I took over a prisoner-of-war command. That was a new activity in the Army because of the riots they had with combat troops in the Pacific with some PWs. There was no doctrine. What happened, the Army was severely criticized. They sent combats troops in to quell the riot and, of course, they shot everybody up. They decided they'd better establish a doctrine and give some of their personnel some experience. They established a 300 prisoner-of-war command in Michigan and located it in Dearborn. Well, they had a commanding officer come in from New York to initiate the first program with the staff that were assigned to that particular activity and he went back to New York. Then the 6th Army personnel called me, wanted to know if I'd be interested because I had the credentials. I was a graduate of military school. The only thing I didn't have was the graduate of Command General Staff College, which was a tough program in the military. 11 Charnley: Was that at Leavenworth? Brandstatter: Yes. Fort Leavenworth. So I took the assignment. I was about ready to retire, frankly, but I decided I'd take that assignment, because it's a rare case to get a flag rank assignment. So I took it. But I was informed by the Chief of Staff of the--I think it was the 5th Army not the 6th, that I'd have to go to Command General Staff College to retain the post. Well, I didn't think much about that. Six months later he called me, informed me that unless I made application and went, they would relieve me of my assignment. So needless to say, I got a leave of absence from Michigan State. In those days the Command General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth had two programs, a short program and a long program. One was a year and the other was about six months, five or six months. On one case they let student personnel out on Wednesdays or Wednesday afternoon, and the other case you went to school six days a week. So I went and took the short program, graduated, came back. Lo and behold, I got promoted to brigadier general. So that's what I did in the military, and finally resigned or retired from the military. There's no reason for me to keep active anymore, in my opinion. Charnley: When you came back to Michigan State, what were some of your early recollections on how the campus has changed? John Hannah was president then, in 1946? How would you describe the campus at the time? Brandstatter: That's a good story. Let me back up a little bit for you. I knew John Hannah, of course, since he'd recruited me for the football team. On one occasion, when I was assigned to Chicago on a temporary assignment, I heard that John Hannah was in town. He always stayed at the Drake Hotel. Well, I thought I'd call him up and say hello and tell him I happened to be in 12 Chicago on this special assignment. So he invited me to have dinner with him that night, which I did. After dinner, I thought we'd go out and visit, you know, roam around the town, maybe go to a theater, but he said, "Let's go up to my room. We can visit and find out what you've been doing, so on and so forth." So we did. Finally, he asked me a question about the Police Ed Program which existed at the time. I might add that Dean Houston and Commissioner Olander and Hannah and others were primarily responsible for the program here, including Dr.--I can't think of his name. I'll think of it in a moment, somebody else that was very active getting that program started. Hannah asked me what I thought about it. I had graduated from it and had very few courses in the police ed field. They only had one course. I think it was law and a course on organization. I thought there ought to be more courses that dealt with the field itself and the organizations that existed, the kind of police service we have, and so on and so forth. I outlined for him, at his request, what I thought ought to be done. Well, I never thought anything about it. Then that evening I went back to my home. I had an apartment on the South Side of Chicago. I'm convinced that as a result of that experience, Hannah got me back on the campus and ultimately asked me to serve as chairman of that program, which I did. But I am thoroughly convinced that the only reason, and one of the reasons, perhaps the primary one, was the fact that he and I had discussed this and I had made some comments about planning that ought to go on and courses that ought to be introduced into the program. So I ended up here. That's how I think I got the job. Charnley: Did you take courses, too, additional advanced graduate courses, while you were here? Brandstatter: No, I didn't. I took several courses in the Civil Affairs Training School at Northwestern University, and I took a lot of courses in what essentially would be called political 13 science courses dealing with Japan and history of Japan and all the rest of it, the structure of Japanese Government and so on, and also Japanese. I spent six months learning to speak Japanese with an issei. We were two or three in a class, so it was a one-to-one situation, pretty much. So I did that. What was your question? Charnley: I was asking about courses, graduate courses, that you took on campus, and you mentioned Northwestern. Brandstatter: I finally decided I needed at least an advanced degree, and I inquired to see if the courses I took at Northwestern University would be acceptable towards an advance degree, master's, and I found out that they were. So I requested a transfer of the courses, and I got credit for about half of what you needed to get a master's degree at Michigan State. The other half I took at State when I was with the Police Administration Program, and I took some of the courses here and filled the necessary requirements for a master's, which included the work accepted here from Northwestern University. So that's how I got the master's. Charnley: Were there other universities that were developing police administration courses? Brandstatter: Yes, across the country, pretty much in California, concentrated in California, and especially among the junior colleges. Charnley: So MSU was part of that movement. Brandstatter: Yes. MSU was really the pioneer, I think the first. They were leaders in the field and the first program that offered a degree. Programs existed, but they did not offer degrees. 14 You could take courses and get credit for them. Washington State was one, University of California at Berkeley was another, but Michigan State was the first degree-granting program, five-year program. Charnley: And most cities didn't require a degree at the time. Brandstatter: No. Charnley: They just had to go to the academy. Brandstatter: Right. And one of the reasons I was interested in police ed was because, having served in a big police department and having visited a number of others over the years, especially during the in-service field training program, I was convinced that something had to be done to upgrade the quality of personnel moving into the field, because many of the people that came in were either tenth-grade graduates or high school graduates who were being recruited by police departments, and I always felt that it was a very complex requirement for police officers to deal with the kind of problems they had to, and also to make friends with the communities that we're serving, or at least be considered friendly. I felt that this was a great opportunity for me to upgrade the law enforcement personnel throughout the country and to perhaps require a baccalaureate degree in order to become a police officer. So my purpose then initially was to get staffed and add more courses. [Ralph] Turner was one of the first ones in field of investigation, quite obviously. He's a forensic scientist but he also had investigative responsibilities. I was teaching law here, which I had no business teaching. [Laughter] But then we got a former judge and lawyer from New York, Bob Scott. We brought him in to teach the law courses and others to teach appropriate courses. But, anyway, that's what happened here, and we began with a program designed to train 15 young men to be professionals in the law enforcement field, and it's worked. I'm real pleased with what happened. Today if you see these ads that are looking for personnel in police departments, most of them require a baccalaureate degree or, in some cases even a Ph.D. If not the Ph.D, they usually require the baccalaureate and the master's degree. Charnley: Were there any areas even in the early years where people could look to Michigan State and say, "If you want this area of policing you go there?" What were some that naturally developed here, particular expertise? Brandstatter: As a result, we got students from all over the country and we established a reputation. We were generally considered the outstanding program of its kind. The evaluations that were conducted by agencies that evaluated universities and programs in the university invariably came up with a recommendation that we be considered the number one program. We had Turner, who had a master's degree. We had Scott, who had a law degree, which was equivalent to a doctorate, and he was a former judge. So we had good people and good programs and we had outstanding instructors and they had experience. So we actually were rated, and never were rated less than among the top three in the country, even when they got several other universities involved. And all of a sudden, you know, subsequently, why, these programs developed all over the country. Now there are, what, a thousand or more, I'm sure. Charnley: In those early years who were the other competing schools that had a good program? Brandstatter: University of California at Berkeley. Now that program was discontinued. Why, I don't know. Washington State University and the University of Washington. As a matter of fact, one of the faculty we hired came from the University of Washington in Seattle. Those were some of the programs that were leading programs. 16 [Begin Tape 1, Side 2] Charnley: How was it that you came to be a consultant for the federal government after World War II? How did that work out? Brandstatter: I knew a fellow who was an executive in the Office of the Secretary. I've forgotten what major program. Secretary of War, I guess, or Defense. They asked me to come in and look at a program in the federal government. I think it was called a training program that primarily served the United States Secret Service and one or two other federal agencies that had security people. That was located in Washington, D.C. It was headed up by one of our graduates. So I said, fine, I'd do it, and I did. I, of course, had to make a report of what I found and what I was recommending as a result of the evaluation I conducted. That got me started and my report was on file. Subsequent to that, I was asked to come in and do other evaluations and also in other parts of the country. I sat on a commission of four or five people in New York State and chaired the commission for a while and did a study of the John Jay College in New York when they started a program subsequently. We evaluated what they were doing. As a result of these reports, I developed a reputation for being fair and helping programs move in the right direction and make changes that are appropriate for the field. So that's how I happened to become a consultant in the field. Of course, Michigan State had a policy in those days where you could serve on a consulting capacity, I think it was two days a month, two working days a month, and then weekends, of course, were yours to add to that if you wanted to. So I took advantage of that. I don't know how many consulting jobs I had, but I complied with the university policy and didn't do more than I was permitted to. That's how I got to be a consultant. I began modestly with the 17 federal government and then people were convinced that I was making the right suggestions and recommendations, and my reputation spread. Charnley: How about overseas? In Germany? Brandstatter: Overseas in Germany. I'm trying to think of Germany, what I did over there. I spent some time over there. What I was doing there was evaluating the occupation of Germany and the law enforcement services. I was unhappy with what I found, because what we did, which we do so often, we sent people over there to offer suggestions that were part of the occupation forces and tried to impose the American system on the German Government. And needless to say, that didn't work. I was opposed to that. Subsequently, after the war was over and the Americans moved out, why, the Germans returned to their original form of government with lender, or whatever they called it in those days, where the law enforcement activities is a part of a unit of government and not fragmented as it is in this country. I've often said that some day we're going to have to do something about that, but I don't think I'll ever live to see that happen, the home rule concept. Charnley: The lender was a division equivalent to our states? Brandstatter: Yes. And the Germans, as you know, have police services within that community, the lender. The business of trying to operate a fragmented police service in Germany just didn't work. I was always opposed to that, and I thought some day in this country we would also begin to consolidate law enforcement. Some parts of the country in a very modest way have done that, but it just isn't going to happen in the United States, because there's too much interest in the home rule concept and people want to be able to criticize their own department and also to get their sons and daughters into local police services. 18 I don't anticipate anything like that happening in the United States, but where we've tried to do that, we've done it everywhere we've gone in a consulting capacity, United States Government has sent people over to the Far East to try to impose the American system upon these other governments, and it doesn't work and it won't work. So what happens after the Americans leave, why, they return to their original form. Charnley: You mentioned Asia. How was it that you ultimately became part of the Vietnam Project? Brandstatter: I didn't know this, but we had a political scientist on our staff who knew President [Ngo Dinh] Diem. He was in exile in France, I think it was, when Wesley Fishell [phonetic] was on the staff here and he knew Diem. They were personal friends. I guess Wes must have visited with him in Europe and came back. When they were looking for somebody to head up the government, he suggested Diem, and that's how Diem got involved, and also when he did, he asked for help from this university to reestablish the government and he asked for help in specific areas: law enforcement, finance, budgeting, and public relations. So John Hannah, President Hannah, selected four people to go over there. We had two weeks to make this study, an evaluation, and make a report to the State Department and then come back to East Lansing. That's how I became part of the Vietnam Project. Jim Dennison [phonetic] was the public affairs guys, one of Hannah's assistants. Ed Widener [phonetic] was chairman of political science department, and I was in police ed, and Charles Killingsworth was in economics and dealt with budgets and policy dealing with finance. I had a problem when I got over there. Diem controlled the police outside the major cities, and this military sect was headed by this man or he was one of the people and he was the general officer. He was in charge of the police service in the major cities. They didn't get along at all with Diem and, as a result, he refused to meet with me. I was supposed to report on the 19 police. So the first week I pretty much spent my time spinning my wheels trying to get to see him to get information so I could make some rational and reasonable judgments about what they needed. One of them, I knew, I was equipment. They didn't have any equipment worth talking about. But, anyway, I finally got disgusted with his behavior and I went to Ed Widener, who was chief of the party, and told Ed that unless I could get an opportunity to meet with him and talk to him at some length to question him about what their needs were and have him give us some information, I couldn't make a report at all except a negative one. So Ed spoke to Diem, I guess, primarily, as I remember, because the next time I made an attempt--and he told me to try again, which I did, and then he met with me. I wrote it up in cold, hard language. I said, "Look, General." I think I was a general at the time, too. I've forgotten. But I said, "Unless you're willing to share information with me, I'm in a position to recommend expenditure of millions of dollars from our government to provide you with equipment, personnel, whatever's needed, based on your recommendations to me." And I said, "If you don't give that, you'll get nothing." Well, that made a lot of sense to him and all of a sudden I got information. But I had to talk vigorously with him. So it worked out. That's how I got to Vietnam. Charnley: Was that in 1954 or did that come a little bit later? Brandstatter: No. Charnley: It was after Dien Bien Phu. Brandstatter: Yes. It was when Diem took over, whatever year that was. I've forgotten, if I ever knew. I've got pictures of that around here somewhere. On the way over, by the way, we met with [Ramón] Magsaysay, the president of the 20 Philippines. We got a very nice reception from him. He said that if there's anything we wanted, to get in touch with a member of his staff who was a captain of the Philippines Army and stationed in Vietnam and he would see that we were taken care of. And it worked, except for the general officer I had to deal with in the Vietnamese Army. But, anyway, we met with Magsaysay, and shortly after that he was assassinated, you might recall. He was a super guy, just very friendly, cordial, you know, anything you wanted to do, here was this guy, the head of the government. So he was very helpful, and we used this other fellow. Then there was a colonel who ended up a two-star general who was in the U.S. Army who was also helpful to us. You know who he was, an American. I can't think of his name either. Too bad Turner isn't here. He'd remember. But, anyway, as I said, it's been a long time. But, anyway, we did that and we made a report. We came back to Washington and we met with the State Department staff, made our report to them, verbally and also a written report. That was the end of our activity except when the Ramparts magazine said we'd--and I was the brunt of all this, of course--that we'd gotten the CIA in there doing a lot of undercover stuff and the personnel that I had recruited were all CIA agents, you know. Charnley: That's what the article said. Brandstatter: Let me tell you who those people were. Being an MP officer, having been in the Military Police and being a reserve officer, I had contacts with the general officer who was in charge of a special agency of military police who'd conducted investigations of illicit, illegal activity. I got in touch with him and said I needed four people, good investigators who would be part of the team, most of them, twenty-five or twenty-six people from around this country that I went and recruited, were pretty much people who had been in uniformed police service in this country primarily, but we needed some people who were part of a team and who could deal with 21 the investigative aspects of the whole job. And that's what we got the people from CIA. They may have been undercover, I don't know, but they were represented to us and to me as officers who were in the Military Police who had special assignments in investigation, and that's what they claimed that we had. But that's what happened and that's how we got involved with the Vietnam Project. And, of course, Ramparts magazine, you've probably seen that. Charnley: Yes. That was in 1966, I think. Brandstatter: And our state legislature conducted an investigation, and we had to appear before the committee. Hannah did, I did, Ralph Smuckler, testified and answered their questions. Charnley: How long were you in Vietnam? Brandstatter: The first time it was just two weeks. Then I returned because we had a staff of twenty-six, twenty-seven police people I recruited from around the country, two people of in New York State Police, others from the West Coast. We had a traffic expert from Grand Rapids, Michigan, people from the Detroit Police Department, all of them in the uniform service. So we had quite a staff over there. I had to go over. We lost one man who fell off, a man out of the New York State Police, he fell off a barge. I don't know what happened and how he happened to fall. In falling, he apparently ripped his leg open, got infected, and the infection killed him. Charnley: He fell into the river? Brandstatter: Yes. So, anyway, that's one of the things that happened. Did we lose anybody else 22 over there? I don't recall. I don't think we did. But I used to go over about once every twelve, fourteen months, sixteen months, just to have people cry on my shoulder. Some people had culture shock, to live in this environment and the kind of people they were encountering. I was ready to bring one fellow back, Vic Strucker [phonetic]. He was on our staff here and taught here. Strucker went from here to Texas A&M and taught their program. But, anyway, he got ill, was having a terrible time. Of course, I had families over there. Turner was over there, and Turner did a super job. He made a lot of contacts. Charnley: The South Vietnamese police, were any of them trained on campus? Brandstatter: Yes. I couldn't tell you how many, but because of my interest, we had people from all over the world, really. We had Indonesians, Koreans, Vietnamese, we had British officers, we had German police here and police from the Middle East, Turkey, I think. I've forgotten. But several. Charnley: Were they integrated right into the regular courses or were there courses taught separately for them? Brandstatter: They were taught separately. We developed the staff from throughout the campus. We had social scientists come in, sociologists come in and talk about our culture, so that these people would understand when they see a little kid smoking in an airport somewhere--believe it or not, this happened--"How could let this happen? You know, you take that kid and you beat him up and tell him to stop smoking." Well, we explained to them that you don't do that in this country. We always had a debriefing going on at the end of their assignment here, spent about two weeks with these officers in a group and explain what they saw, because a lot of things they saw 23 in this country they didn't understand. We involved our psychologists, sociologists, people from those staffs, to help explain what they experienced and how we acted within our culture. Charnley: How would you say President Hannah was in terms of his support for the projects that were in Vietnam and some of the others around the world? Brandstatter: I think excellent, really outstanding. He apparently believed in it, obviously, because he went to several of these countries, you know, over the years. I know on one occasion Ralph Smuckler took him to the Far East and they visited several facilities, Vietnam and others, that part of the world. As far as I knew, Hannah was always very supportive. I'm not sure some of the deans were, but I don't know that. Charnley: Did you see any in terms of financial benefits to the school as a result of the Vietnam project in terms of federal contracts? Brandstatter: No. Charnley: There wasn't anything major? Brandstatter: No. Nothing, really, other than individuals coming here from their own governments or something. Charnley: In, let's say, the early sixties, after we got out of the Vietnam Project or the project ended, were there any other similar things around the world that you were involved in? Brandstatter: No. I was involved about ten, twelve years ago. I was part of a team that was 24 supposed go into Russia. There were about, a dozen of us, I guess. We were to rendezvous in New York on a Friday night and spend Saturday being briefed. I got a call from the group that was responsible for this development. They were somewhere in one of the states in the Far West. I've forgotten. It was some years ago. And on Friday night prior to our departure, and I was all ready to go, I had papers and stuff I had with me, so was everybody else, to rendezvous in New York, spend a day being briefed about what we were expected to do in Russia. I think there were six or eight of us. I've forgotten. Friday night the Russians called and canceled the whole thing. And then I got a request later, some years later, to go again, but I turned that down. I just had no desire to have that experience again. I think that group went and that's good, but that's the only one I know of. It would have been interesting, and I would have enjoyed that. Charnley: Going back to campus and the school, the development of the School of Criminal Justice, when did it actually become a separate entity with a director? Were you the director from its earliest history? Brandstatter: Yes, pretty much until I retired. I was hoping they'd appoint Ralph the director, but they had other ideas, I guess. Charnley: When did you leave as a director? Brandstatter: When did I leave? When I retired. I could have stayed on and taught, but I had other fish to fry. I had the opportunity to go take over the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia. I didn't know about that vacancy. They contacted me as a result of the work I'd done with other federal agencies in the training area and wanted to know if I'd be interested, and at that time I said yes. That's one of the reasons I didn't get involved in activities here. 25 I think around 170 people applied for that job, Civil Service, and they screened out all but fourteen. Fourteen of us met in Washington. They reduced that number to six, who were interviewed by the Assistant Secretary of Treasury, who was in charge of that particular project. And then a board of people met us at Glynco, where five of us were interviewed by this board with the Assistant Secretary of Treasury McDonald from Chicago. A lawyer from Chicago, who was the Assistant Secretary, was chairman of the group and there were five or six of those people. They interviewed us for the job. And there was one of our graduates, incidentally, besides myself was in that group. I ended up being offered the job. The last thing I told them when we got through--incidentally, that's something I was critical of. We were allowed thirty minutes for the interview with five different people up there. A job like that? Charnley: Just getting warmed up. Brandstatter: Yes. I couldn't believe it. And had the one fellow who served the board was a timer. And when the half hour is up, he'd come in and say, "Time's up." So I left them saying, "Well, if you want leadership, I'll give it to you." Charnley: How long did you do that job? Brandstatter: About seven years. And very interesting the way they operated. They had a guy from Texas who preceded me and didn't know the first damn thing about training. But, anyway, we upgraded the program. The fellow that succeeded me is one of our graduates, had been in the federal service with LEA, Law Enforcement Administration. That program had been discontinued. Rinkovitz [phonetic]. Charlie Rinkovitz was his name. Charnley: Who were some of the prominent graduates? Do you remember any of those that you 26 had contact with or that later went on to other things? Do you remember of those that you, maybe, kept contact with? Brandstatter: I used to have a three-by-five file with people, and I kept that active, especially the fellows who were looking for new opportunities and didn't want it generally known and I'd contact them. There's one fellow--I can't think of his name, and I've been trying to think of it--who established a consulting service in law enforcement. He's out in the Far East. He's in Hong Kong somewhere and has established an office there and operates out of that office. And there was a fellow on the New York State Police, the one guy that survived. The other fellow died from that infection. I can't think of their names. I apologize for that. I should. Charnley: No. It's a whole career and I'm asking you to think about things you hadn't thought about for a long time probably. Brandstatter: That's right, I haven't. Charnley: Let's talk a little bit about some of the other people that you worked with. Ralph Turner, obviously I haven't been able to interview him for this project, but would you talk a little bit more about his work as a professor and investigator and what was his area of specialty? Brandstatter: Forensic science and investigation, he taught those courses. He came out of the Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. While he was here, he went to the University of California at Los Angeles and got a master's degree. Ralph got an advanced degree. Ralph was a very interesting guy, and I have a great admiration for him. He came here, and I'm sure that people turned him down when he sought to get into the academic world, although we never discussed it. He had a very severe speech impediment. That's a big handicap 27 for a teacher. He was trying to correct it. Before he left here, before he retired, and long before that, he had managed to correct it. He frequently, in the early days, he'd come into my office and either smoke a cigar or cigarette. He had to keep his mouth open a little bit in order to speak adequately and accurately. Ralph overcame that handicap, which was a severe one, when he came here. But I found something in Ralph I apparently know others did. He's an extremely loyal guy. [Begin Tape 2, Side 1] Brandstatter: He would help wherever you needed help at any time. He was a good teacher, a very fine teacher. People liked him. He was one of these faculty who would meet with students after hours, have a drink with them or something in a local bar. He got to be very friendly. As a result, they learned a lot from him not only in the classroom but outside the classroom. He was truly a professional in every sense of the word. I know that O.W. Wilson, who was one of the pioneers in this business and was in charge of the program at California, asked me one day what I thought of him. So I told him I thought Ralph was a super addition to our faculty and did extremely well, was a good teacher, and was working on overcoming the speech impediment. I used to visit his classroom occasionally and he got over it completely, and he could speak without having anything in his mouth. He was helpful to the department, and he'd do whatever he could to give the department's its status and a good friend. Charnley: Were there any major cases that he was involved in or asked to consult with that you're aware of? Brandstatter: Yes. There was one out on the West Coast. I can't think of the names of them, but I know Ralph was called in. I think he was involved in the [John F.] Kennedy assassination, as I 28 recall. Somebody asked him to look at a piece of evidence. Charnley: As part of the Warren Commission? Brandstatter: No, separate from the Warren Commission. It was subsequent to their activity. Somebody was pursuing what they'd done, I guess. There was another case that I can't think of it, Ralph did. You should talk to Arnella [Mrs. Ralph Turner]. Charnley: In your own work and teaching, you continued to teach while you were director. What were some of the courses that you were actually responsible for? Brandstatter: I taught courses in law, statutory law. I'm not a lawyer. I also taught a course in organization and administration. I did that until after John Hannah called me in one day, said he had to talk to me, and I went in to see him. I walked in without any warning or preliminary comments of any kind. He asked me to sit down and I did. He said, "You're my new Chief of Police." Just like that. I looked at Hannah. I said, "you must be kidding." He said, "No. I'm not kidding." He said, "I am busy with a lot of things in this department. Police service on campus is driving me up the wall. They're doing things that are absolutely ridiculous, and I'm getting people calling me about them." And he said, "I want you to take over." I argued with him for probably a half an hour. I said, "President Hannah, I'm not qualified to be." He said, "Oh, yes, you are." He wouldn't take no for an answer. Well, to make a long story short, that's what happened. Well, you can imagine a growing campus in a community like this with students misbehaving. I lost a gun in a riotous condition 29 on campus. Somebody just took it and ran. They were all around me. Charnley: Oh, no. This was during the sixties? Brandstatter: Yes. Charnley: And the activism that was going on? War protests? Brandstatter: Yes. It just erupted on campus. But Walter Adams, as I remember, Walter Adams, when he was acting president for a while, we were in a mob of people surrounded by people just raising hell and screaming and yelling and Walter couldn't control them. If Walter couldn't control them, I couldn't. But, anyway, that's what happened. I became Chief of Police on campus and, needless to say, what I did initially was to upgrade the whole operation. Some of these guys that were jokes on the local police department, campus police, left. They didn't want to do what I asked. I wanted a police department that was comprised of people who had been at college at least two years minimum and preferably four years, and that's what we ended up with. In the process of doing that and insisting on higher standards of performance, these characters left. Well, in the process of doing that, this doesn't happen overnight, as you know, I just became overwhelmed. I was called at night. I ended up buying a cottage up on Lake Huron so I could get away from here on weekends, because I was getting calls on weekends and so forth. So, in other words, I just didn't have time to continue with the teaching. And I talked with Hannah about it before I gave up. I said, "I don't know what the dean is going to say, Dean Weingarten [phonetic]." But I said, "I hope somebody can explain to him that I just can't carry on in this way, that I don't want to kill myself. I think it's too much." Because Hannah said one year, finally, and listing to me complain about the assignment, 30 he said, "Well, just straighten this all out." He said, "Get it in good shape and we will relieve you." Well, thirteen years later, I was released. And in the meantime, I had the dean on my side, you know. He'd travel with Hannah occasionally. This wasn't Weingarten. This was Seeley [phonetic]. Al Seeley, the dean of the College of Social Science, he'd go with Hannah on these trips Hannah would make to some of these countries, and he'd come back and tell me. He said, "I tried to get him to relieve you." And I said, "Why don't you do it?" He said, "He won't do it. Unless you come in and personally ask to be relieved, he said he will not do anything about it." I don't think he would if I did come in, the way he behaved when I took the job. I just couldn't carry on, I mean, with the kind of demands on my time as the police official responsible, and we had things going on on the campus. We had one kid--I don't know whether you know it, but the campus has got a bunch of tunnels underneath the campus area. One kid used to get down there, a real smart young man, and he'd get into the chemistry lab and get the materials for bombs. He'd make these bombs, then float them down the Red Cedar River and then scare everybody. They'd wonder, "What's going on? A bomb's going off in the river." Well, we finally found him. No, we didn't find him. I take that back. His dad came on campus. His dad was a dentist in Detroit, and he came over to see me, thank God. And he said, "Chief, I've been in my son's room and he's got some chemicals and things that look like they're explosives." And I said, "Really?" He said, "Would you come over and look at them for me?" I said, "Well, with your permission." "Fine." We did. Then his dad talked to the boy and the boy confessed that he was the one. So he said, "Don't charge him with anything." He said, "Let me take care of him." He said, 31 "I'll see that he straightens out." And he did. And I asked him what he was going to do and he said he's going to see that he gets in the military and completes his military requirement. And I guess that's what he did. I never heard from him again or the father. Charnley: They probably didn't put him in the ordnance corps. [Laughter] Brandstatter: Another guy, he was stealing women's clothes off the clotheslines or wherever the women hung out their clothing in the Spartan Village. This guy was really perverted. He'd take the clothes and, you know, they smell the--well, these were clothes that had been washed. Anyway, it got all the women scared, you know. Their clothes were disappearing. So we set up an attempt to find out who was doing this. One night our staff picked up a young man who was married with a family and arrested him, brought him in and we had his father come in. His father was a judge on one of the judges between a local judge and a Supreme Court judge. What they called him in those days, I've forgotten. But, anyway, he came in. I had a long talk with him. I said, "You know, we really should charge your son with the crimes that he's committed here. He obviously needs psychiatric help." He said, "I'm aware of that." He said, "If you are willing to turn him over to me, I will see that he gets proper help, psychiatric and otherwise, and you'll never be bothered again." Well, you know, like the other case, that's a lot of responsibility to take on, and somebody could file charges against me. So I went to Hannah. In both cases I went to Hannah. I said, "These are the things we can do. But I don't want to do anything unless you approve it." And he said, "Well, you do what you think is best." [Laughter] So I said, "Okay." This wouldn't happen under my successor. He'd take them to court and charge them. But, anyway, we did that. But that's my feeling for young people who need help. And we never 32 heard from him again or from the family. So I'm assuming everything turned out all right. These were the kind of things that I had, and this was why I didn't continue to teach. So when I got relieved, I started back in the classroom. But by that time I was ready to get out. Charnley: So you were chief during Hannah-Adams interim and then were you chief under President [Clifton R.] Wharton [Jr.] then also? Brandstatter: No. Charnley: I didn't ask you any questions about athletics later on. Where did you see the tension between athletes and academics? Were you supportive of the athletic program? Brandstatter: At the time I was in school and on the faculty, there was no tension. People helped out. In my day, you had to travel by train. It took you a lot longer than it did today to fly to some place and be back that night. We had to go and we'd be gone for a week at a time. The faculty were very cooperative. They'd make up things for you to read in your absence or give you a test. I know in the math program, a real nice guy, faculty member, would always asked me when I'd get back what I'd done and he'd say, "Here are the things that you missed. These are the things I want you to study and learn." And he said, "I'll give you a test on these subjects, parts of the course, and if you do well, fine." So that's what they did in my day. Now what they do over there today, I don't know. There's no animosity between the students, athletes, and the faculty and other students that I knew of. I never encountered any. I encountered nothing but cooperation, help, in those days. Assistance, you know, if you need some extra time you’d take it. One class, economics class, I was tired. I don't know where we'd been. We'd been somewhere and I fell asleep in the classroom. The instructor came and pushed me. He said, 33 "Mr. Brandstatter, this is a class. You ought to wake up and listen to what's going on." But, no, I can honestly say that there was a good relationship and they supported. Of course, Hannah was a great supporter of athletics, as you know. Charnley: Well, that was my question. I mean, your support, obviously you had been an important athlete while you were an undergrad here, and then as a faculty member it seems to be an important part of the story of the last fifty years in particular, the rise of the university both in athletics and also academics. Charnley: Yes. Right. Charnley: I mean, you were involved with it. That's why I wondered if you had any continuing contact in athletics or just as a fan or that sort of thing. Brandstatter: I supported them, but I had no contact other than if I knew somebody I'd make it a point to help them if they needed help. But I have a different concept of law enforcement than most people. What bothered me when we'd teach in training that officers get today and used to get, and still do, I guess, the emphasis was on arrest and detention. That's still true in many cases today. Well, I'm a great believer in crime prevention. You can prevent a lot of activities, negative activities, by working well with individuals. I had a group of young men, for example, I cite this as an experience, a couple of experiences similar to this. When I was a police officer in uniform in the Fourth Precinct in Detroit, I had a beat. It was a triangular beat and go up one side like this and come across. West Fourth Street. Charnley: Close to downtown? 34 Brandstatter: Close to a major thoroughfare in Detroit. Are you from Detroit? Charnley: I'm not. I grew up north of Grand Rapids, but I did my research at the Detroit Public Library right on Main Street. So I know some of Detroit. So it was right downtown. Brandstatter: Yes, right downtown. This was way out toward River Rouge. Fourth Street runs out that way. It's one of the main thoroughfares in the city. Apparently they had a bunch of kids, twelve-, thirteen-, fourteen-, fifteen-year-old youngsters raising hell. Now, this was while I was with the precinct. What happened there were two drugstores on the precinct, in the precinct and on this beat, two drugstores. One was owned and operated by the sister of the mayor of the city of Detroit. The other one was a private guy who encouraged the kids hang around his place. If they hung around her place, her drugstore, which they did, she would get angry and call the police department, and they'd come out and they would swear at these kids. You're too young to remember, but in those days alleys were paved with stones, white stones. Paved, if you want to call it that. These kids would get these stones. They'd throw stones at the police. Well, needless to say, these guys couldn't catch these kids. They're young and they'd disappear in the neighborhood, you know, just like flies. But, anyway, they decided this college cop that had been assigned to the Fourth Precinct should take a stab at this problem. And, again, I said I believed in talking to people and visiting with them and seeing what the problem is and helping them if you can. So I went out there and I start walking this beat, and they had to call in every hour. We had to call system, telephone. I got to know many of the kids. I urged them to call me Art. They did. But the vandalism was still going on. Cars were being beat up and tires were stolen, the kind of things kids will do. They had a leader, the kid that was as big as I was in those days. 35 So one night they had an activity going on at the high school. There was a high school in the area, off the beat, off my beat obviously, but high school. There was some social affair going on, a play or something, and I made my call on the call box and they asked me to go over to the high school and check on it because there were a bunch of kids there and they were disturbing the activity, the play. So I went over there. There are these kids that I'd been talking to. So I called them together and I said, "Now, look, this has got to stop. You can't keep on." And the leader, their leader so called, was there, and I said, "You've got to get out of here and stop this, and you can't do these things and get away with it. Now, I'm telling you bluntly and frankly that if you do it, you're going to get into deep trouble." And I said, "If you what to fight about this, fine. I'll take my jacket off and we'll go to it." Well, needless to say, this kid looked at me and couldn't believe it. And all of a sudden he turned around and left. Well, psychologically I had these kids right where I wanted them. He lost face in that group, and from that point on those kids didn't do anything wrong. I got one of them to go to the Santee Sea Camp, in those days, Citizens Military Training Camp, and I found some of them jobs. These are the kind of things, and it worked out real well. This vandalism stopped. This college cop is doing pretty good. Charnley: And you'd had some psychology, too. Brandstatter: Absolutely. Yes. And it worked real well. Charnley: Did you continue that emphasis on crime prevention at the School of Criminal Justice? Brandstatter: Oh, yes. And we talked about getting an interest in young people or people's lives, helping them if you can and do that sort of thing, yes. 36 Charnley: Cheaper expenditure then. Brandstatter: Absolutely. Charnley: And later on for incarceration. Brandstatter: And we'd help kids in school, just like this kid that was stealing the women's clothing, the youngster that was stealing chemicals out of the chemistry department. He'd go through these tunnels, by the way. He'd get up into chemistry and other places probably. It worked. Well, I got transferred. When I was transferred, folks from the route, my beat, came down to the station asking that they not transfer me. I never forgot that. It was real nice of them and one of the great experiences that I had, and it just proved what I believed, you know, that you can be kind to people. You don't have to arrest everybody, throw them in jail. That's what they did in those days. They still do it. Charnley: After your retirement, were you involved in community activities in East Lansing at all? Brandstatter: I worked closely with the chief of police, Charlie Pegg [phonetic], who since died several years ago. Charlie was one of my lieutenants, came out of the service, and we hired him as an officer and he became a lieutenant. I worked with him, but that's about it. And incidentally, when I was chief in East Lansing, the departments were consolidated into one department. Hannah wanted them separated ultimately, so he asked me to make a study of this, which I did, and recommended a separation in those days. And that's what happened. 37 Charnley: When you first came to MSU, did you anticipate that you'd ultimately end up being here for as many years as you did? Brandstatter: No. As a matter of fact, I had a job offer over in Pontiac in security work. I had problems with that and they had problems with me because I was a reserve officer. This was prior to the war, obviously. Whoever it was that made the decision must have realized that I would be ordered to active duty shortly, since the United States quite obviously was going to get involved in this war in Europe. And that's what happened. So I didn't get the job, and I would have been in security work in the corporate world if that had not happened. So, yes. But, anyway, it was an interesting career. I've never regretted it. The money wasn't good. Yes, even at Michigan State the most money I ever made at State as director of the school, chief of police, two jobs at the same time, thirty-five thousand dollars a year. Charnley: Thirty-five? Brandstatter: Can you imagine? Charnley: Hard to raise a family on that amount. Brandstatter: And we got along. I did a little consulting work, obviously. I used to make about ten thousand a year on consulting. That helped. And its incredible what's going on these days with salaries. And my job, my whole philosophy was to upgrade the whole concept of law enforcement from one of arrest and detention to one of crime prevention. You couldn't define crime prevention. People would say, "What do you mean?" Well, it's what you do with people. You help people. You become friendly with them. You become acceptable. Your advice is 38 sought and so on and so forth. If you do that, I think you're going to do well and you'll make friends. That's what I did and today, as I say, I'm delighted to read about these openings that occur in chief's jobs. They want somebody with a bachelors or a masters and some with a PhD. On campus we have this guy that came out of the Flint Police Department, one of our graduates, has got a Ph.D. Charnley: So your experience as a college cop continued then? Brandstatter: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Charnley: In professionalization of the forces. Brandstatter: Professionalization, that's exactly what it is. And, of course, people laughed at me, you know. In those days, you're out of your mind. Well, I encountered some of that in Detroit, obviously, you know. They just didn't believe in it. These people would come up at this beat I was assigned to. It was an Italian neighborhood, so most of the people were immigrants, and their kids just did what they thought they wanted to. Charnley: And not a lot of respect for the police, probably. Brandstatter: Absolutely not. The woman, of course, didn't help, this sister of the mayor of the city. But that's the way it was. Charnley: Well, I want to thank you on behalf of the project, and I appreciate the time you spent and also your insights. 39 Brandstatter: Good luck. Charnley: I do appreciate it. Thank you. Brandstatter: I don't know what else there is to tell you. Let's see if there's any segment of this that might be of interest to you. Charnley: Did you have any children who came to the university? Brandstatter: That's a good question. I have one that graduated from here. My kids went to five different schools. Five boys, five different schools. Our son John came here, started a year, didn't like the big university and all that it implied and said he didn't want to continue here. I said, "Fine. Where do you want to go?" He said, "I'm going up to Ferris." So he graduated from Ferris. Then Bob went to junior college for two years down in Florida, and Mike went to a small liberal arts college in Nebraska. Jimmy, the youngest, went to University of Michigan. So we have a lot of fun with him. He keeps telling me when we ride him about Ann Arbor. He says, "Dad, [inaudible]." He went to two. Played for Bo [phonetic] and Beckley [phonetic]. And interestingly enough, Bo and he are very good personal friends today. And Bo is a hard-nose football coach. I was in Detroit one day and was coming back here to East Lansing. It was on a weekend, Saturday, and I knew that Michigan was having its spring practice. "I'll stop in Ann Arbor and see how Jim is doing." Well, I did. That poor kid. Two hundred and fifty pounds, six foot four or five. Bloody. Dirty. And I walked up to him and said, "Jim, how are you doing?" He said, "Dad, I'm getting clobbered." It's interesting how these things work out, but today they go on trips together. Bo has mellowed. Well, I don't want to take more of your time. 40 Charnley: No. That's fine. I appreciate it. Thank you. Brandstatter: Well, I hope it helps. Charnley: I'm sure it will. [End of interview] 41 Index Adams, Walter, 29 Bachman, Charles W., 3 Casteel, Miles, 3 Combs, John, 2 Dennison, Jim, 18 Diem, Ngo Dinh, 18 Fishell, Wesley, 18 Hannah, John A., 2, 5, 11, 12, 18, 21, 23, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 Houston, _____, 12 Jones, Ed, 5 Killingsworth, Charles, 18 King, Tom H., 3 Magsaysay, Ramon, 20 Michigan State University Athletic programs, 33 Campus in 1934, 3 Campus in 1946, 11 Field Service Training Program, 6 ROTC Program, 7 School of Criminal Justice, 25, 36 School of Police Administration, 6, 14, 15, 23 Student unrest, 29 Vietnam Project, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23 Olander, Oscar G., 5, 12 Pegg, Charlie, 37 Ramparts magazine, 20 Scott, Bob, 15 Seeley, Al, 30 Smuckler, Ralph, 21, 23, 25 Strucker, Vic, 22 2 Turner, Ralph, 14, 22, 27, 28 Widener, Ed, 19 Wilson, O.W., 28 Draft 1 edit Edited JWO 10-07 Edited SR 1-2010 per Mrs. Brandstatter