Interview of Dr. Reynaldo Anderson, Associate Professor of Communication at Harris-Stowe State University Tiffany Pennamon: So my name is Tiffany Pennamon. I’m a graduate student at the University of Florida and I’m here with Dr. Reynaldo Anderson. It’s January 30th and we’re here at the Zora Academic Festival in Orlando, Florida. [0:12] So first, could you introduce yourself, um, just give a little background about who you are and why are you here today? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] Uh, good afternoon. My name is Dr. Reynaldo Anderson. I am a pr-, Associate Professor of Communication Studies at Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis and I’m the Executive Director of the Black Speculative Arts Movement. [tsk] And I’m here at the Zora Conference today, uh, to talk about Afrofuturism and the rise of the black speculative tradition. Tiffany Pennamon: [0:42] And so can you, um, tell me a little bit about how you came into your work in Afrofuturism and first, how would you define that term? Reynaldo Anderson: First, I just define it as a systematic body of black speculative thought that’s been around since the middle of the 19th century with key figures like Martin Delany [tsk] or in the esoteric tradition, Paschal Beverly Randolph and others who were doing this kind of work before even the Civil War. [tsk] And then, it’s mutated somewhat over time. Uh, uh, I would say, uh, in the 20th century, key figures as I mentioned, uh, at my lecture earlier today is Zora Neale Hurston in terms of the esoteric occult aspect of, of black futurity or Sun Ra with the way he blends in the esoteric ideas with music and technology. And then, in the 90s with the advent of cyber theory and Web 1.0. And now, we are currently in the second wave of Afrofuturism or Afrofuturism 2.0 because of the emergence of social media platforms and, and the accelerating pace of technological change and then other things that go along with it, such as climate change. And it’s now maturing as a philosophy of history [tsk], uh, and, and approaches things like metaphysics, aesthetics, um, theoretical and applied sciences, social sciences and proma-, programmatics. And that is – those are all characteristics of the second wave of Afrofuturism that’s been going on for well over several years now. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. [2:14] And so when you were conceptualizing your work, um, how did you make those distinctions between like that first wave of Afrofuturism and then the second, the 2.0 and then where do you kinda see... Reynaldo Anderson: Well... Tiffany Pennamon: ...Afrofuturism going? Reynaldo Anderson: ...I, I look at it in terms of technology and paradigms. I guess the Kuhnian take on paradigms, what constitutes a paradigm. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: And the Web 1.0 phase of Afrofuturism where you had your online listservs, web pages, excuse me, and, and chat rooms. That was fundamentally different, excuse me, in terms of before the ever-, emergence of social media with Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and these other platforms that allowed masses of people to network even more effectively around ideas, exchange files and so forth. That was a new paradigm that came in, so that’s a new technological paradigm; therefore, I kinda deduced that that’s gonna change how Afrofuturism is thought about and practiced also. And so I came up with the term Afrofuturism 2.0 durin’ a discussion with Alondra Nelson at the Alien Bodies conference at Emory in, uh, 2013. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. [3:31] And then from your perspective, um, what does Afrofuturism offer our society at this moment? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, um, hm. [tsk] Depends on what you want to do in terms of offering the society. I guess, uh, for black people, it, what it is, it’s, um, [tsk] a way of thinking about and talking about our future, uh, uh, other than being limited talking about Democratic Party politics, the Obamas or... Tiffany Pennamon: Yeah. Reynaldo Anderson: ...other certain type of issues. Uh, if you, eh, uh, when you begin to have your own philosophy of history that critiques the, uh, past, present and future, uh, which is, uh, uh, where you’re engaging in a form of community self-critique but also a certain type of critique on the society, that’s going to ruffle the feathers of some people and the status quo in terms of how you think about it. When you think about it, uh, and then when you add science fiction tropes to it where if I’m an African American but I think of myself as similar to an alien abduction experience. and as I alluded to, uh, [tsk] in my, uh, presentation earlier, the idea of black bodies being subject to experimentations for medical advancements without anesthesia [inaudible 4:51] but the black body being used for the advancement and progress for all without compensation. Uh, thinking about that, so you got those overlapping tropes of science fiction, real history, trauma, reparations, politics and that’s, uh, that’s the framework that Afrofuturism allows you to work with in terms of l-, just, just a snippet of what you can do, uh, within that framework. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. [5:19] And, and all of those critiques and those explorations of these kind of hard topics to really talk about publicly, um, where do you see, um, someone in Afrofuturism really trying to get maybe people that might not know about it to really see these connections as well? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] Uh, well, the popular culture former was the movie Black Panther to a certain extent, where you see parts of the movie where he deals with ancestral worship, then you see the parts of the movie of advanced technology. You see also in terms of a, a certain type of black politics, um, uh, at the present, a certain type of, um, of, uh, social structure, uh, uh, a certain type of a hierarchy present in the movie. So there in the movie you have social studies, science, a certain type of gender politics, a certain type of, uh, attitude toward science, uh, and wealth and heritage and metaphysics that are all present in the movie. And it’s kind of a, it’s kind of a mashable kind of project where you can kinda see these different, from different, uh, cultures around Africa and the diaspora that come together in a mashable project that, uh, Marvel, um, gets behind and then mainstream studios. And I think even they didn’t think it would, it probably even surprised them the effect that it had in terms of how people gravitated toward it. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. And one of my favorite parts about your lecture earlier this morning was how you talked about Afrofuturism doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be black science fiction. Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: [tsk] [6:58] And so when we think about Zora Neale Hurston and that literary aspect, um, how can we make these connections in how we analyze literature and public writing today? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, think about it like another book. Uh, that to me would come under, uh, that’s why I use the word black speculative thought. Science fiction narrows what’s you’re supposed to talk about where black speculative thought expands what you can talk about. Like I’d say John Williams’ book The Man Who Cried I Am or the movie and the book, the, The Spook Who Sat By The Door are speculative projects, you know, the idea of this person who joins the CIA or something like that in a way to overthrow the U.S. government. And there are other kinda gems out there like Afro-6, which was a underground literary hit for the Black Power movement back in the late 60s. These are speculative projects but the thing is, the entire Black Freedom Project was speculative. Before it happened, you had to imagine it first and then we began putting those things in place to make it happen. But people like Martin Delany, we had to imagine and speculate about our freedom first before they became concrete vehicles. So yeah, the black speculative, uh, thing, uh, a lot of what we’ve done starts out as an idea in our imagination and it goes back to that old-fashioned thing, free your mind and the rest will follow. [tsk] And so it gives us those kinda spaces to really think about alternatives to the present, [tsk] uh, that people can work on. Um, and then and there are parallels in other experiences. Um, before people designed rocket ships, they existed in novels in terms of people wanting to get in rocket ships, fly to the moon with the work of H. G. Wells and whatever. And I’m sure a whole generation of scientists probably look at H. G. Wells’ thing and then they created the science to make it happen. And so that’s why a person were to use the black speculative tradition and say it’s beyond just science fiction, [inaudible 8:48] we’re also dealin with real science also, if that’s the part you want to focus on. And so like the work of the digital scientist, uh, Nettrice Gaskins is the one that comes to mind. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. [8:59] And then what connections do you see specifically between Zora Neale Hurston and her ability to, to imagine an Afrofuturism in our present and our past and our future? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] Well, what Zora Neale Hurston did, she drew upon the past. That, that was a transitionary moment that Zora Neale Hurston was, um, writing in. Uh, if I want to talk about it say for economics, that’s the era of monopoly capitalism that she’s writing in after post WWI, when the world economic system is changing from what it had known with industrialized capitalism of the 19th century. [tsk] And so a host of other things, you got the League of Nations that is, uh, uh, is formed after WWI because, you know, of course, tens of millions of people are being killed, the Spanish Flu. And so she’s writing, uh, to, uh, she’s taking this regional black cultural, [tsk] uh, vernacular behavior and tradition and tries to universalize it into a type of a cosmic consciousness but grounded in black culture. In terms of going – so she’s going from the particular to the universal grounded in black culture in terms of how to think about the future and how to historicize our past. And this, in terms of using these past artifacts as an anthropologist studying our culture and then kind of having it overlap with these esoteric traditions to project into the future, kind of psychohistorically, uh, out of this past related to trauma, this is where the way forward for us as a people. Uh, and, and then, um, [tsk] and, and out of that tradition, uh, you do get a people, you do get people like Sun Ra that do that. And so that’s why that I mentioned the elements of contemporary Afrofuturism, the esoteric being part of it, [tsk] squarely, uh, where Zora Neale Hurston’s tradition in relation to Afrofuturism is. Tiffany Pennamon: And then in your presentation you mentioned that Zora and some of her other Harlem Renaissance contemporaries, um, they were part of in a cult almost. Reynaldo Anderson: Well, uh... Tiffany Pennamon: [Inaudible 11:09]. Reynaldo Anderson: ...they were. Uh, there was a book Jon Woodson wrote called Oragean Modernism and the other one To Make, To Make a Nation. And Jon Woodson talks about how, uh, um, people like Melvin Tolson, whose character people became familiar with in the movie The Great Debaters. Uh, he wrote a book called Harlem Gallery, which is an e-, epic poem which has a lot of traces of alchemy in that poem. And then you have, uh, people like George Schuyler in terms of the work he produces using satire with Black No More and Black Empire that are a part of this impulse, uh, borrowing from this esoteric tradition and as well as Zora Neale Hurston. And these traditions came from, um, these, uh, uh, where they take the black experience and look at it through the context of what people like Gurdjieff or, or Orage were talking about and Ouspensky. Because this was a great time of where you had these cross-fertilizations of culture, what they called during the jazz age up in New York at that time. And, of course, Gurdjieff and a lot of his followers were in Paris. So you had this Paris to New York kinda dialogue going on in the world. And this is at the same time you got, so you got the Harlem Renaissance, you got the [Inaudible 12:19] later, a generation [inaudible 12:22] Negritude and some of these other things. So you have this transnational dialogue in terms of ideas going on at that time that the Harlem Renaissance is influenced by. And I, and as I also mentioned, globally at that time or at least in the west, there’s a major occult movement going on. You got it going on in Germany and Britain and, of course, in North America, uh, also and so the Harlem Renaissance. So what is, what the Harlem Renaissance and what I believe Woodson and, and now more recent scholarship is bringing up that the occult and the esoteric has also been a feature of modernity in terms of how people negotiated modernity or maybe represent a certain disillusion with modernity. Like, if we’re modern and represent ideas of the enlightenment, how come we just had a war where 40 million people just butchered themselves and used poison gas and all these other things? Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: You know, ‘cause with the modern, uh, modernity and then the enlightenment supposedly say because [inaudible 13:14] we are rational people we wouldn't do something like that but, of course, we did. And then, they did it again a generation later with WWII with the camps and the ovens and all that kinda stuff. So they were trying to go for what they called a different way through trying to get to a point of cosmic consciousness using culture as a vehicle to get there. Tiffany Pennamon: And then you, um, kind of outlined kind of like a right and left wing of esoteric tradition. Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. You got the right-wing esoteric tradition, which an example might be the Nazis because they were in a cult. They had features of the occult. And then, there’s the left-wing aspect [of it too 13:48] where you have these utopian left-wing projects also. Sometimes they’re engaged around socialism and some other, uh, aspects of it. So you do have the – and you see those features in other, um, [tsk] recent, uh, theoretical formulations around acceleration. Um, but yes, you have those left wing and right wing tendencies of the esoteric tradition. Tiffany Pennamon: [14:09] And so what do you say to people that say that at least Afrofuturism is too utopian or it’s too idealistic? Reynaldo Anderson: Uh, well, those people have probably never tried anything, uh, when they say it’s uto-, uto-, too utopian. [tsk] Uh, how many times artists and people chase perfection, you know, uh, sometimes just it’s n-, it’s not so much about the final project but it’s the, the journey trying to get there that you wanted some things in pursuit of what you think it will be sometimes. So, um, so yeah, I would – that’s an abstract argument that people got to work out in the abstract but I’ve never seen people trying not to plant the perfect field, put together the perfect piece of art, stay in the studio to create the perfect album or book on hours like that, you know. And you’re never going to be satisfied, of course, but sometimes people come close to those moments of that they can ca-, capture that they think are moments of those type of perfections. So, um, that’s generally, uh, um, how I think about people ‘cause it’s easy. I, I look at, uh, the right wing aspect of it, that’s the lazy way to go. That’s where you’re just giving in to base passions and, and anger and hatred and some of the other issues out there that doesn’t really require that much discipline, so, you know. Tiffany Pennamon: And I think that’s where Zora, like, really does a great service in teaching us even today that even if you don’t necessarily agree with someone or you don’t necessarily understand someone, you can take the effort to, like, really engage with different cultures... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...across different ideas. Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: I know even personally I didn’t know that she was as contributive as she was. Reynaldo Anderson: Oh. Well, the thing about it, if you really care about culture, culture is always conservative, about tradition and so forth. Um, [tsk] however, uh, we h-, here I would say we don’t need to look through ourselves through the lenses of others because most black people I know are culturally conservative in terms of how we think about family, love and relationships and whatever. And it’s different from other cultures because here we had to fight even to have our marriages recognized or whatever in the eyes of the law. Um, uh, black or Africans here were enslaved longer than we’ve been free. [tsk] And so, uh, so yeah, we are still in the process of becoming and so and it’s in our, uh, panache of the anthem we sing from James Weldon Johnson, “Lest We Forget.” So there’s that kind of looking back kinda thing of lessons from the past or what, uh, the African term Sankofa to still, you know, how do you bring forward the best of the traditions of the past and then remake the other ones that are no longer necessary. And so, uh, so yeah, tradition matters. Uh, yes. Tiffany Pennamon: [17:20] And so what are some of those lessons that you’ve really looked back on, reflected on and brought forth? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] Well, the thi-, the thing when I shared the story of, uh, uh, when I’ve been to Africa, when you go to [inaudible 17:33] and you realize that, oh, they had to be strong just to make it to the coast to the castle. And then, be in this place for a couple of months suffering and then survive the passage, all this. We are the descendants of the survivors of the people who survived getting to the coast, surviving the castle [inaudible 17:50], so we come from a very, [tsk] uh, strong set of people that, uh, survived that experience and still be in their right mind and with their dignity intact. And so [tsk] that is why it is our historical experience. We underwrite what would later become capitalism in terms of how we were used to jumpstart capitalism in what is kinda descriptively called the west where modern capitalist is, is, uh, uh, being tr-, bought and sold and trafficked, uh, in terms of the capitalistic accumulation that creates the, the modern world capitalist system. So there’s always that irony there in terms of how, uh, it, it has broader implications for theory and critique and politics, um, of, uh, of the modern era when it’s looked at that way. And when Toni Morrison talks about the African slave being the first mo-, the enslaved African being the first modern person, [tsk] uh, of the modern era and has all those kinda implications that, uh, Toni Morrison was talking about when she makes that statement. Tiffany Pennamon: [19:05] And so do you think that, um, the way that we view Afrofuturism now, especially like with those issues of imperialism, um... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...climate change, how can people that are practicing this work and also academics, how can they disseminate their work, um, their practices and kind of [tsk] scale it? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, what we’ve done, uh, when we started the Black Speculative Arts Movement, we started out in the community because, uh, we wri-, we enjoy the community spaces better than the academy. ‘Cause the academy tends to be too stifling and [inaudible 19:39] we found a lot of our people would rather come to a local community space then come on up on a campus because they don’t feel that they’re accepted on a campus. And in a community space a lotta times [tsk] it’s not your academic rank that holds sway, it’s how much you know. So a person could be in there and know more about the topic than a PhD about what’s going on. And then, the – uh, and it forces the, the academician or the scholar if they want to apply it at the classroom to actually engage what’s going on in the community that their – how does their knowledge and what they’re thinking about this topic, uh, what does it mean for this local situation. As I mentioned earlier when we did this, uh, we had our, um, [tsk] conference in South Africa and a young, uh, black woman, Naledi Chirwa, who is a lea-, leader, 20-something-year-old leader and she talked about our Afrofuturism deals with the politics of the stomach. So there they have to think about how does this idea, uh, feed us, you know. Uh, ‘cause a lot of times we’re thinking of different things over here. That’s why, uh, as I, one, I commented before, Afrofuturism, how it’s theorized and practiced depends on whatever the local population has to deal with, you know. So, um, yeah, so it’ll, it’ll mutate and it’s flexible enough to adapt across, uh, the diaspora to, uh, meet the needs of whatever it is at the moment. So, um, [inaudible 21:06] for instance, if you’re dealin’ with Caribbean futurity, they got to think 100 years from now is my island gonna be under water, where do my grandchildren migrate to, [tsk] you know. I’m thinking about my descendants who are not born yet [tsk] and, uh, that might be their own politics in relation to climate change. Like, you know, if we stay here, we drown, so are we going to build a underwater city... Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: ...or a floating city like Waterworld, you know. Tiffany Pennamon: [21:36] And so do you think from where we are right now and to where our imagination takes us, um, how, what urgency do you see in terms of, like, meeting these goals to...? Reynaldo Anderson: Right now, the urgency is not there, I think. Uh, but like I said, a lot of times your artists and thinkers will put the ideas or it hasn’t connected to the policy people yet ‘cause the policy people are generally revolving around election to election. [tsk] However, as these ideas become much more and more popular, uh, I, I generally try to focus, I always tell people I generally focus on people under the age of 30 ‘cause they tend to be more open to experimenting with new ideas. I tell people my age, they’re just thinking about their divorce, their, their car note or their house note, or trying to make it another 10 years to retirement. [laughter] So [tsk] they’re not gonna have a whole lot of energy invested in the future. And, and you know, people know they have nothin’ to lose, I mean, ‘cause they, uh, believe they came up with some type of report recently that the net worth of black people in this country will be 0 in the year 2050, so you have nothing to lose but try it. I mean, [tsk] they’ve already said if you keep doin’ what we’re doing right now, we already know how much we’ll be worth in 2050. We already know what the climate, with climate change or whatever. So [tsk] I believe it was Einstein said that keep, uh, [inaudible 22:52] if you want to identify an insane person, they’re people that keep doin’ the same thing over and over again. So the sane thing is to do something different. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Yeah. That’s really interesting you say that because, um, right now, I’m 25, so whenever I try to talk with my friends, um, I’ll say, like, sometimes a crazy idea like let’s cancel student loans for everyone. Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: Like, I was saying that, like, three or four years ago and then, like, to see, like, politicians like Bernie Sanders... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...and Elizabeth Warren saying, like, we’re gonna take out, like, on Bernie’s side, like, all student debt and then Elizabeth Warren up to, like, $50,000. Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: Then it’s, like, okay, now it’s in the public, like, discourse, so... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...imagine, like, what can be next for, like, my kids. Reynaldo Anderson: Well, five years ago, the reparations wasn’t in the public discourse. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: And so, uh, that was like [inaudible 23:39] radical but now you [have to ask 23:40] candidates. I’m, I’m thinking okay, dual citizenship not [inaudible 23:44] I’m romantic about Africa, maybe I don’t trust people of European descent in this country not to become fascist or I want a way to leave if I have to leave. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: I mean, um, and that’s not me sayin’ bad things about people, just sayin’ I’m hedging my bets against, you know, I don’t know what’s gonna be in the future of the country. Because if they want the country to be a certain way, white people are gonna have to get their act together, you know, if they really want. There’s either gonna be some buy-in or there’s not. Now statistically they’re sayin’ we’re becoming more segregated. So to me, it’s not logical to talk about everyone’s holdin’ hands when the numbers and the data tell me that we are not becoming more unified, we’re actually becoming more segregated. Therefore, based upon the data, the intelligent thing is to do A, B, C and D in response to that rather than, [tsk] uh, take a reactionary thing of being a victim later. Just do some proactive steps in response to what the information says. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: You know. Um, [tsk] and that’s what I don’t see enough of now, people actually talking about the politics based upon what the data says. They’re talking about it more about the, uh, the I wish paradigm rather than what is, you know. Tiffany Pennamon: The reality. Reynaldo Anderson: The reality. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. And you mentioned in your lecture earlier today as well that if only just 1 million African Americans went back or had dual citizenship... Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] Oh yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: ...[inaudible 25:08]. Reynaldo Anderson: That a country like Ghana or South Africa would be a superpower within a decade. Tiffany Pennamon: [25:14] And so do you see that? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, I’ll tell you what, that trend where a million people from the diaspora went back last year, they really underreported and talked about that. They focus more – that’s what I’m sayin’. They selectively focus on – when I saw a commentator who said, ooh, the biggest cultural event that happened last year was the R. Kelly thing. I’m like, no it wasn’t. You had a million people, 1 million go back to one little c-, a country in West Africa. That meant they saved money, planned the trip and flew over and made the trip. That impact there, that’s, you’re talking billions upon billions upon billions of dollars [tsk] that impacted. Now, they want to keep the project goin’ and it’s impacting the politics of West Africa [inaudible 25:57]. I think some of the other African countries saw the, the resources and how that impacted Ghana’s infrastructure and now they’re, like, oh, we better look at this. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: So that’s going to have, have a ripple effect far beyond whatever R. Kelly has got going, so – in terms of our, our destiny in relation to this country. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. Reynaldo Anderson: And then that’s where the Sankofa and Afrofuturists [inaudible 26:21]. In our history, we can remember when there was no United States of America. And therefore, as an Afrofuturist, I have to think about, well, after the United States of America is no more, where will we be if we can remember when there was none. Therefore, I can say, okay, maybe we’ll be here after there is one no more. So that means Afrofuturism [inaudible 26:45] questions things like, uh, a, uh, an uncritical patriotism or those kind of things, which makes some people nervous, you know. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: So... Tiffany Pennamon: And it would, like, I never thought about that too, so what happens after the United States. [27:02] So what do you think is the role of an Afrofuturist writer or someone from that black speculative tradition? Reynaldo Anderson: Oh, it just, uh, think about what does a, what does a – where, where are black people after the United States is no more. And we know in social sciences, everything has a beginning and an end. Every empire that ever existed is no more. Countries that used to exist are no more. So what is the law of inclusion? What is the beginning and what is the end? Is it a civil war? Does the country break up? Or, [tsk] uh, right now, uh, they use I guess in this kind of postcapitalist moment, they kinda use the black body and face as a way to symbolize, uh, a certain aspect about America since they want to put a black face on everything from, I don’t know, certain types of awards. I guess artists would call it a pas-, a pastiche, uh, kind of uh, uh, a coating of, uh, this, uh, blackness as a marketing brand for the United States to [inaudible 28:11] indicate, hey, we’re not what we used to be. [tsk] And – but when you interrogate and look at these things beneath the surface, [tsk] inequality is bigger than it’s been in generations. Um, [tsk] of course, people caught up in the surveillance system of the [inaudible 28:32], uh, or some people say we’re going to a surveillance capitalism thing. So, uh, yeah, they – those discussions are put aside because we have the, um, the puppet show via media to persuade us that, um, everything is okay. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: It’s not okay [tsk] when you pull the scab or pull the, uh, Band-Aid off of it. It’s festering. and so I would say Afrofuturists, they’re, they’re to look beneath the surface or peel off the scab [tsk] to, uh, then, uh, that’s why in a way Afrofuturists are almost kinda in a way like [inaudible 29:12], you know. They go back and look at the dead [inaudible 29:16] history and then try to forecast into the future sometimes. And that’s the way you could say, you know, that would be like a Afrofuturist as, as a [inaudible 29:24] and then you just give the [inaudible 29:27] modern technology to project his – to, uh, be an oracle into the future using, uh, contemporary data and algorithms to forecast and things, you know. Um, you know, so that’s, uh, that’s one way of [inaudible 29:45]. Tiffany Pennamon: And in a way, it kind of seems that, um, just like this black speculative tradition is very prophetic. Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: And so like everything that has been conceptualized at that ideal level is now almost like becoming a reality. Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: [30:03] And so what ideas do you even have around like just that prophetic element of...? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, uh, we’re going to have to deal with, uh, human enhancement. [tsk] If we know that college students already take Adderall as a performance enhancement thing to compete in the classroom, I suppose the next level of that might be some type of implant that allows a student with more money to compete more effectively on standardized tests than the poor student that can’t afford the enhancement. So, you know, ‘cause I know a lot of college students now they take the Adderall, the stuff meant for ADD, so they can study longer, compete harder; the same way athletes do, they take kinda steroids or whatever. So in the near future, we’re just dealin’ with different forms of enhancement. And I suppose the wealthier you are, the better type of enhancements and stuff and products you can afford. And since we already know it’s in the culture where people enhance their breasts, their noses, lips and so forth, uh, your enhancement, eh, uh, what kind of enhancements you have are dependent on how good your credit and money is. [tsk] And I suspect in a couple generations, you’ll have those who are naturally born with no enhancements and those who are designer babies to – who were – uh, it goes back to what I mentioned in there about Frank Herbert in his book Dune talking about the Kwisatz Haderach, a genetically ende-, engineered superhuman. [tsk] And I suppose they’re going to be genetically engineering these into the military also, so that ge-, the transhumanist or gene-, or the hum-, the enhancement project is pretty much well under way and as we’ll see that over the next, uh, couple a decades. Or maybe they’re going to design people to withstand climate change better than we can now. Say we’re – usually we wither at 110 and now maybe we’re, we have to enhance people to survive up to 140, 140 degrees to deal with, um, some of these issues. It’s going to probably change fashion where we might look like people that are – that live in the desert in the Middle East. That might be the fashion here in a few decades as these kinda European suits and stuff we wear, uh, the heat and weather and climate won’t permit us to wear that. Or we wear some type of full-length body suit, like the Fremen people of Dune and Mars that recycles our body waste and water into water that we can sip on to survive in a harsher climate as a decertification takes over parts of the globe. Uh, you know, that’s – so a lot of this stuff we’re probably tracking these changes over the next few decades how it impacts style, aesthetics, politics and, uh, food consumption. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. And I want to go back to something you said, um, just how it was a conversation at Emory with your colleagues... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...um, about not liking that term post-blackness. Reynaldo Anderson: Oh, that was funny. [laughter] I said and Nettrice Gaskins got it on tape, I’m talkin’ to John, I said what is post-black? I said, I remember makin’ this statement, that sounds like two black men complaining about their white girlfriends at a Starbucks in Harlem. And everyone started chuckling about it, you know. So, so that’s kinda where, you know, we started making fun of the term. Back then, I was like [inaudible 33:20] when, I asked I think when did we stop being black, you know. So, you know, and I think that was all a part of the black, the part of the Obama movement that people wanted the post-racial moments. You heard, we heard the term post-black, post-racial, first black president. And, of course, the Tea Party and all the right swept all of that away rather convincingly and so now we go, we were kinda mocking that crowd that was trying to advance that, um, that notion. Because as one speculative writer would, uh, [tsk] uh, W. E. B. Du Bois writes rights in the book Darkwater about the comet and so-, and the souls of white folk that, um, for white, certain type of white people, the black people are like a fixed star and when we move out of our assigned position, it shakes their world up. And it goes back to what Chris Rock said. Until Obama’s election, uh, as Chris Rock said, the poor, uh, a regular working white guy wouldn’t want to be me and I’m rich, because he can always in his mind say at least I ain’t a nigger. And so for a lotta white people, the Obama presidency, whether you agree with his politics or not, made them reflect in their own position. And, and it’s been my experience, though, that, um, when I’ve dealt with elite white people, they despise poor white people even more than blacks because they’re like you’re black and you’ve made it. So they look at poor whites as like what’s wrong with you? This is a white country and you can’t make it? So they despise poor whites but they manipulate them and there are certain political economic interests to keep, uh, blacks and other, uh, groups contained from challenging their interest. And so it’s like poor whites participate in their own demise, uh, just to feel better about themselves, you know. And that’s somethin’ that Lyndon B. Johnson said that, uh, uh, uh, about poor white people in terms of why people underst-, don’t under-, know why poor whites get, uh, sh-, don’t make alliance or common cause with other poor people of color. [tsk] All about the psychology and how their investment in whiteness, that they’d rather be poor and white than have to accept leadership or work with people who they feel superior to because they’re white. And so, uh, and that’s kinda what you see in the Congress, uh, the low level of intellectual debate, particularly when you hear some of the Southern politicians talk, they, uh, very rudimentary in terms of, of, uh, their pol-, their political, um, [tsk] uh, analysis. Uh, ve-, very regional, they don’t really have a national project. So it’s goin’ back to the unfinished tendencies of the American Civil War, the first American Civil War. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. Reynaldo Anderson: And you can kinda see that reflected in the, the, uh, the U.S. government [inaudible 36:07]. Tiffany Pennamon: And you can also kind of see like in the way that the poor people’s campaign was very threatening as well. Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Of course. Tiffany Pennamon: [Inaudible 36:14], um, trying to revive that now too. Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. [tsk] Tiffany Pennamon: [Inaudible 36:18] Harris-Stowe State University is an HBCU. Reynaldo Anderson: Yes. Tiffany Pennamon: [Inaudible 36:20] and so... Reynaldo Anderson: Uh... Tiffany Pennamon: ...what conversations are happening at HBCUs or at least at your institution about Afrofuturism? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] I’ll tell you what, the HBCUs, like I said about [inaudible 36:28], someone does a study about this current movement, most of the important key figures from the second wave of Afrofuturism are products of HBCUs. Uh, myself and John Jennings, who graduated from Jackson State, [tsk] uh, Ytasha Womack graduated from Clark, uh, [tsk], uh, Tim Fielder is an alumni of Jackson State, [tsk] um, others come to mind, uh, [tsk] uh, you know, they, uh, uh, uh, that are products of southern HBCUs. And, [tsk] uh, as I talked to a friend of mine, um, Jackson State was kinda like my first [inaudible 37:06]. I mean, that space was where you could have a space where you imagine black people being in charge of everything. And so when you can imagine them being in charge of a modern university, it’s not hard to make the leap to being in charge of a city or a country. And so HBCUs are laboratories for the black speculative imagination. Uh, at a very low level, you’re seeing how people, even if we don’t have as much money, you’re seeing us in charge of things. And so that is – it becomes a space where you can imagine more beyond those walls. And it takes place in those critical years between 18 and 23 years old where you see that. That’s where you need to [inaudible 37:47], you, you have your life going, your girls, your posse, your people in your wedding and friendships that last over the course of a lifetime. Um, [tsk] and I can, I guess I can see it. Like, I remember, like, my, uh, my daughter, I know she just, uh, got accepted online for Alpha Kappa Alpha. Tiffany Pennamon: Ooh, congrats. Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: That’s my [inaudible 38:06]. [laughter] Reynaldo Anderson: You know, [inaudible 38:08] Jackson State is where I met my wife. Uh, she pledged, uh, AKA, a Gamma Rho chapter there. And I’m an Alpha from a Delta Phi chapter there and my father pledged before me at Jackson State, so she’s third generation Jacksonian. And so, uh, the, the, the thing was, the thing is the next logical step in what would happen if Spelman, Morehouse, Jackson State, Grambling and Howard then form a network that is connected by via blockchain technology and then do some other things. You know, when you got 100 of’m using blockchain technology, which cannot be hacked, to promote certain types of project, information, knowledge sharing and file sharing, everything else, that almost would be like an invisible country within a country to a certain extent. And so, uh, again, that’s where, uh, you know, um, uh, and, and the first Black Speculative Arts Movement event took place at Harris-Stowe, an HBCU. Tiffany Pennamon: [39:10] Can you... Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: ...explain a little bit about that? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, after Unveiling Visions was over and ended in the, uh, was it January of 2016? It started the fall of 2015. Then, we were in discussions about, man, we had that collection of artists there after Unveiling Visions, this needs to become a movement. [tsk] And I know, uh, John at the time [tsk] was in a transitionary moment or I know he had to, uh, I don’t think, no, John was not married yet but John was [inaudible 39:43] transitioning between locales [inaudible 39:47]. We’re both extremely busy and I think we were, we, because we had gone through that process of through 2013 to 2016 of having these events, like the AstroBlackness event, the Planet Deep South and so forth. And I said no, this needs to become a systematic, ongoing kind of movement thing where we put three to five basic things in place and we go from either black community spaces and/or university spaces that bring us. And it started at Harris-Stowe, then the second one we had, uh, was Toronto, Canada. [tsk] And we, so we go up there to Toronto and hook up with the Afro-Caribbeans in Toronto and then later Montreal and then Howard and then, um, and some other places. And so we’ve just been planting seeds the last 36 months in different locales and at the same time doing the movement and networking aspect, we’ve been putting out a body of work at the same time. So our theory and practice go together, you know, in terms of, uh, in terms of defining the work in the terms that we’re doing. And, um, so for us, we’ve just said, uh, I mean it might sound a little bit egotistical but then being an Alpha man, you shouldn’t be surprised that we, we’re gonna create the new Harlem Renaissance and we got the talent to do it and we’re not going to ask permission about doing it. And so the rest I guess somebody will write about it in a dissertation, you know. Uh, and it doesn’t seem to show any signs of slowing down or whatever but, uh, yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: [41:19] So what future do you see, um, for Afrofuturism? [tsk] Um, what – like, do you see a third iteration of it emerging? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] The third iteration, I remember I talked about it in this, uh, article with Design Indaba talking about Afrofuturism 3.0. Now I think Nettrice Gaskins has an articulation of it that deals with technology but I’m dealin’ with like paradigms and sociopolitical paradigms in relation to technology and other things. And I would say the 3.0 wave would happen when Africa gets involved in it the way that the diaspora did. And the reason I made that argument was the idea of pan-Africanism really starts in the African diaspora. But then in the middle of the last century, the Africans take the leadership of the pan-African movement and it later becomes the Organization of African States and now the African Union and as they’ve incorporated recently the diaspora as the sixth zone of the union. So the third wave iteration I would suspect that, you know, as Africans incorporate this and say, say you have one of their IT schools or an engineering school saying our philosophy for this year is Afrofuturism. An entire engineering school in African countries and then we’re going to use this to apply it to making things and critical making and other things that we’re going to combine with science. That would be fascinating. I mean, um, [tsk] that could happen. Or, uh, maybe some other thing I’m not necessarily thinking about, maybe along the lines of what Nettrice is talking about. But, you know, I think the next level of Afrofuturism would be in the area of public policy. [tsk] And, um, ‘cause I think there are enough creative people out here doing some things but now we have to think about what does that look like in terms of policy. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Okay. [43:21] And then just in your time here at the festival, um, have you seen an engagement, um, that’s kind of been enlightening in terms of Afrofuturism’s connection to Hurston’s legacy? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, I think for some, a lot of people here is just a new discovery they hadn’t thought of her like that. But when you think about people that we cite, talked about in sci-fi, for example, I mentioned, uh, Asimov, Isaac Asimov with his foundation series being kind of a psychohistorian and Frank Herbert with his Dune series being a preserved form of it. So this idea of a psychohistory in terms of in real time [inaudible 43:55] around technology and culture, she very much fits into that tradition of what we think about futurity in terms of projecting someone else in futurity. And she had her own unique way of doing it in terms of how she combined social science with culture and [inaudible 44:12] and the esoteric to forecast this thing. That was unique to her and, uh, and that I think others when they go back and look at it, uh, either try to imitate it or, uh, uh, you know, at best, you know, uh, but it’ll take a little bit of work. And it was similar to what kinda, uh, Sun Ra was talkin’ about in, in a similar vein. Um, so I think, uh, from what I’ve met here at the festival, you’re pro-, uh, everybody [inaudible 44:42] new questions that we’re taking a second l-, look at Hurston in relation to the esoteric tradition and then how it relates to black futurity around the question of culture and social change. Um, and then for others who are outside of the literary field, maybe they’re looking at maybe the digital humanities project or somethin’ like that... Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. Reynaldo Anderson: ...for this particular festival. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. And climate change just keeps coming back to me too, so... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...um, how we’re engaging with those digital rhetorics, the literary, um, just like technological everything as it relates to how we’re going to save our culture, save all of humanity... Reynaldo Anderson: Mm-hm. Tiffany Pennamon: ...for whatever is to come. [45:24] So how do you see Hurston, her environmental [inaudible 45:26]? Reynaldo Anderson: Well, that’s where the challenge comes in. ‘Cause right now, the trend lines are – is ‘cause basically every group for themself at this moment. She would probably advocate, uh, working with other groups, even though keepin’ our self-respect. But the trend lines now, uh, based upon the data, um, populism and nationalism is the driving force of world politics, um, right now and it’s going to be on that trend for the next couple a decades. So her work now might exist as a critique of that behavior but she would not be totally opposed to a lot of the culture work going on [inaudible 46:03]. She might have a critique on what the political practices would be but she would not be opposed in terms of the doing unique Africanist cultural production, uh, things that, uh, that it produces. And I, I’m sure she would probably, uh, argue that, uh, to do this and I’ve even told other people that are interested in the topic that do the homework and do the hard work, get into the knowledge. Don’t, don’t be cookie-cutter about, [tsk] um, how you’re approaching the work. I mean, you know, just you got to be good, really good at history and other kind of – that’s why I [inaudible 46:44], I argue that it is a transdisciplinary process, you know. And so, I mean, and so to me, to me bein’ an Afrofuturist also means you’re gonna be a lifelong learner, you know, and, and be intellectually curious. And, um, [tsk] so yeah, she, she, she would fit in what, uh, is going on right now around this topic. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. [47:08] And so what would you tell your students, um, and future Afrofuturists, contemporary Afrofuturists, um, what can they learn from Zora Neale Hurston and early generations of black thinkers? Reynaldo Anderson: Hm, [tsk] what can they learn from them? Uh, you can’t sit around waiting for somebody to save you. Uh, you’re gonna have to do the work. And your work, if you could stay at it consistently enough, you’ll eventually find out whoever your tribe is supposed to be. Uh, one of the things I, I, I think one of my funnest moments, organized events, was having a woman come up to us after the event who said thank you for helping me find my tribe. And so, uh, yeah, you, you – so ‘cause a lotta people do this work in isolation. And because a lot of people are not familiar with what the term is [thumping] and so it’s hard to find collectives of people that are all doin’ the kind of work. ‘Cause I don’t – when we first started this, we had to find each other online first but now the last three or four years, now you’re seeing more conferences now. So it’s creating more networks and communities of interest. And then, so I suppose the next thing after the networks and community interest, then comes through how the young people learning from the past, how do you [squeaking] institutionalize your work. So you don’t just put together somethin’ that’s great and then 10 years later nobody knows about the challenge that you would learn. Your older generation did some great things but one of their shortcomings was they did not institutionalize their ideas within departments and institutions so it was ongoing after they were no longer here. The, the institution-building part was missing and I think that seems to be one of the things we’re working on in [thumping] this generation is the institution-building part of it. Tiffany Pennamon: Okay. That reminds me of like Walker bringing Hurston’s legacy back into... Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. Searching for our mother’s gardens. Like, you know, she had to go back and find all these women that did these work and it had gone away because nobody [thumping] had institutionalized their work. Tiffany Pennamon: Mm-hm. Reynaldo Anderson: Yeah. Tiffany Pennamon: Yes. And so I guess my last question, um, [49:18] what’s next for you or, um, like...? Reynaldo Anderson: [tsk] Well, uh, in the near future, I know we’re doing an Afrofuturismo project looking at the black Latin futurity experience. And I’m working with, um, [tsk] the Live Ideas festival in New York while I’m curating a project with the choreographer Bill T. Jones and, uh, the live, the, uh, live arts, um, community there. The title of the program is called Altered Worlds: Black Utopia in the Age of Acceleration. Uh, we have people like Cornel West who’s going to be t-, participating. Arts and artists and thinkers from all over the country will be there in May. And prior to that event, at the Gala as a part of the host committee, I’ll be a part of a committee giving Spike Lee, David Adjaye, the architect for the new, uh, the African American Museum in D.C. and, um, the estate of the artist Jean-Michel Basquiat, we’re gonna be giving them like a p-, uh, a lifetime achievement award. So that should be pretty fun. So that’s all going on in the near future. And I’m trying to put together my first solo authored book where I’m taking all these ideas and stuff I’ve learned [inaudible 50:37] over the last decade and put it into my own solo-authored volume here over the next year or so. That’s the short term. And plus, uh, the arts, the, BSAM or the Black Speculative Art Movement seems to be takin’ on a life of its own now. People are finding us and as I mentioned during my talk, they want us to come to Australia to do some things over there and, uh, we’re waitin’ to see if we’re going to do something in Brazil this fall, so. Tiffany Pennamon: Nice. So thank you so much, Dr. Anderson, for speaking with me today and I hope you enjoy the rest of the festival. Reynaldo Anderson: Okay. Thank you. Tiffany Pennamon: Thank you. Reynaldo Anderson: Okay. /mlc