Interview of fiction writer Iheoma Nwachukwu Kimberly Williams: [clicking] My name is Kimberly Williams. I’m a University of Florida doctoral student in the English Department. Today is January the 31st, 2020, and we are at Zora’s Place in Eatonville, Florida, and I am speaking with… Iheoma Nwachukwu: Iheoma Nwachukwu. Kimberly Williams: Awesome. Thank you. And we are here today to discuss Afrofuturism [clicking] regarding the [clicking] Zora Neale Hurston Festival and Conference. [Inaudible 0:25] [tsk] [0:26] Can you tell me a little bit about yourself and how did you get into the world of Afrofuturism? Iheoma Nwachukwu: [tsk] Well, I, um, [throat clearing] I write fiction. I write, um, mostly literary, literary, um, fiction. Kimberly Williams: Okay. [papers rustling] Iheoma Nwachukwu: Uh. But with, um, some part of it, it’s s-, [speculative 0:49] fiction. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: But which I call realism. Right. Kimberly Williams: Ah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: But of course, you know, it’s – when you write about, you know, the supernatural, ghosts, and stuff like that, it’s called magical realism. But of course, as an African, it’s, it’s real life. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. Um. So, um, [clicking] that’s basically what I do. I used to play chess, professional chess, for 10 years… Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 1:15]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …in Nigeria. Um. [tsk] And I, I give it up when it, you know, didn’t pay the bills. Um. As such, I d-, I don’t do it professionally anymore but I, I play from time to time. Um. [tsk] And so of course my relationship with Afrofuturism comes from, you know, that speculative aspect. And I did write a story, um, years ago when [tsk] Gaddafi died, Muammar Gaddafi, the d-, dictator, um, [tapping] leader of, of, um, Libya. And so – a-, and that’s, uh, basically how I f-, f-, w-, how [throat clearing], excuse me. [throat clearing] Excuse me. How I got invited to the festival was through, you know, that story that I published. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 2:03]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Uh. And the story – the thing about the story is basically i-, it looks at Gaddafi and what he represented to the people. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so like how the West played this double-faced game with Gaddafi and with Libya. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, a-, and basically just, you know, looked at that relationship. Basically looks at Gaddafi’s last days in the sewer before he was killed. I just imagined what… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that was like. But also usin’ that as a platform to get out his double-edged, um, relationship with the West. But sometimes, you know, it was beneficial to the West and then when it wasn’t beneficial anymore… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …they plotted to take him down. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And the problem with that story was that no journal in the West wanted that story. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Uh. Not here in the U.S. and not in the U.K. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And eventually it got published, um, in South Africa. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And then when Bill Campbell put, you know, his, um, anthology together, that’s how [he 3:05] found that story and then it made its way back to the U.S.… Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 3:08]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …which is really very interestin’. And so, of course, it tells you about, you know, how beneficial imp-, and impor-, importance Afrofuturism is… Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …because what, what that’s doin’ is, is givin’ visibility [to] [inaudible 3:20] that are, uh, traditionally suppressed in the West. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so, and so, you know, and, uh, so that’s one beneficial, um, aspect of, of Afrofuturism. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 3:32]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, a-, and that’s basically my, um, relationship with it. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 3:36]. And I know in your, in your work, there’s so much around, around ghosts and, and, and haunting. [throat clearing] [3:44] Can you describe that particular, that particular conduit, um, in your work and why not, perhaps, you know, I don’t know, vampires or behemoths or…? Iheoma Nwachukwu: Of course. I mean, I’m African and Nigerian. And I grew up in that culture where, uh, I mean, a, a, a witch could be a vampire. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Okay. [Inaudible 4:06]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right? Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Because, you know, witches – uh, I w-, I wanna talk about witches, I, I mean, like in real terms. Your neighbor could be a witch back in Nigeria and then, you know, someone could say that person livin’ over there is losin’ a lotta blood ‘cause a witch is suckin’ that person’s blood. Kimberly Williams: Oh. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And in that way, witch could be a vampire. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so that’s, you know, as far as culturally, uh, and, um, w-, within the cosmology of my world as a Nigerian, that’s my relationship with vampires. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And, of course, belief in the supernatural and the belief in ghosts, uh, that’s something that’s also part a my cos-, [inaudible 4:44] cosmology as, [throat clearing] as an Igbo Nigerian… Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …um, which is why – uh, that’s what I grew up with. A-, and that’s what I write about. And so even though I’m doin’ literary fiction… Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that aspect of my culture has to be part of that fiction. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know, ‘cause that’s how I express myself in the world. H-, that’s how I find myself in the world. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Uh, uh, for, for it to be authentic fiction from my point a view, that has to be a part of, um, the component of makin’ the world of fiction that I create. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Okay. [Inaudible 5:22]. Um. Thank you for that. That really like thorough and very culturally enriching response. Yes. [5:31] So with that, um… Iheoma Nwachukwu: [Inaudible 5:31]. Kimberly Williams: …how do you define Afrofuturism? Iheoma Nwachukwu: Afrofuturism, I mean, just beyond bein’, bein’ in the [section 5:38] of African culture… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …and science, um, like I said, I feel like it’s a vector for, you know, the dissemination of African culture… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …and, um, the creation of a Black utopia. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: I feel like any story where, um, [inaudible 5:55] doin’ poverty porn… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know, when we’re talkin’ about Africa where… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …where Africans are seen as hav-, as occupyin’ a place in the world that is equivalent to other people… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that’s Afrofuturism. Um. [tsk] A-, and I go back [always 6:14] to when I was growing up and I was watchin’, you know, the Star Trek movies, you know, and like and I loved those movies. Th-, they’re great movies. Uh. A-, and I just I loved this idea of bein’ in the future and seein’ what, what – you know, even though I might not have believed that’s what the future might look like. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: But it was really invigorating and stimulating to see that sort a future. But I just couldn’t find myself in that future… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …because of a lot of, you know, White people. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so as a child and you’re, and you’re growin’ up as a child and you’re askin’ yourself i-, it, it appears that the future has no place for me. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 6:52]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, and you see it’s really important for a Black child growing up anywhere in the world to be able to see themselves in the future to feel like they have a voice in the future. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: To feel like they have a voice in the world. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. Um. And so that, that, that became problematic for me. In, in Lacanian, um, psychology, there’s the idea that from the ages of 6 to 18 months, a child recognizes themselves in the mirror. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, and when that happens, a child, they, they’re able to accept themselves as an object that, um, that can exist outside of themselves. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And from, from that, um, stage, the idea of the ideal is built… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …‘cause s-, so that when a child watches like an, uh, like Superman, they – that’s the ideal. And so they, they [inaudible 7:47], so instead of seein’ Superman, they’re seein’ themselves as Superman. So when they watch like a commercial, um, and they see someone with white teeth and with a great body, they put themselves in the position a that person. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. Now, if a, a Black child in the world is watchin’ all of these movies about superheroes and seein’… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …all the White people, i-, i-, i-, [inaudible 8:12], it, it, it starts to affect the confidence of a child growin’ up. Right. And so, so it’s really important, um, that – and Afrofuturism comes and, and it’s tryin’ to get a place at the table. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, and that’s what like Black Panther does. You know, like… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …seein’ – I mean, a movie like – say a show like Luke Cage… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …uh, uh, and Black Panth-, Black Panther, seein’ a Black superhero, it’s… Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …such an important thing for a child, uh, which is why, um, we wanna see more movies like that. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Wanna see more [inaudible 8:45] like that. We, we need more, um, support for, for stuff like that. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: W-, we need, you know, money pumped in. Let’s have this elaborate discussion about, about our lives. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know? Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And of course, there’s a lot of Afrofuturist art. And when you look at that, it’s so beautiful when you see… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …all of, you know, um, all of that, that art comin’ out. And I wanted to also mention watchin’ Doctor Who as a child. I love Doctor Who. You know, um, and I s-, I ha-, Doctor Who is really very [funny 9:15]. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And I had the same problem with Doctor Who and the problem was that I just didn’t see myself in that future. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Even as much as I loved that future, I just – I wasn’t there. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: But so, so that, you know, growin’ up, y-, a-, and this happens at a subconscious level for a child growing up. Y-, y-, whoever you see as Doctor Who becomes the ideal. And that’s what you associate with what you wanna be like. And so… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …your role models are not people who look like you… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …but people who do not look like you. And you, you [inaudible 9:49] – so you – basically it’s like you’re bein’ programmed. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so you’re lookin’ up to, in this situation, White people. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so hopefully Afrofuturism can, you know, entrench its position, um, in the West, which is the epicenter of literary production and, and, and so – and that can help create, um, a new narrative about, uh, Africans, people of African extraction… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …a-, and, and African culture. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And make it important. You know, make it like a tangible thing. Kimberly Williams: That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. Y-, you already touched on in your, your talking about the, um, the significance and the influence of, of course, Wakanda Forever with the Black Panther film. [10:35] Can you describe your, your feelings and your thoughts about, um, that film and that film and your work? Iheoma Nwachukwu: First, I mean, I have kids. And, you know, and it’s important for my kids. And last November, I went to my kids’ school and on the wall, I saw, um, a drawing of a pharaoh, a pharaoh’s queen, and there was a sphinx and they were all Black. Kimberly Williams: Hm. [laughter] Iheoma Nwachukwu: And seein’ that, I was… Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 11:03]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …I took a picture of it and I posted it on Twitter. I’m like this is so important. Kimberly Williams: Absolutely. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know? ‘Cause they’re seein’ depictions of Africans every time in Hollywood and they’re White. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. That’s true. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know? Of course, you sort of go back to the 25th Dynasty in, in Egypt and how, I mean, the t-, the 25th Dynasty were, you know, people who were black skinned. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 11:29]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, and when you go to the museum in Egypt, they skip the 25th Dynasty. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. A-, a-, a-, and so that’s a erasure and it’s somethin’ that we continue as Black people to grapple with. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And Haiti has taught us that it is those who are, um – [tsk] who have – who are in charge of the tools of makin’ history that make history and det-, determine the narrative… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that we live with then as human beings. Right. And so what Afrofuturism does, of course, is to allow us to take charge of, you know, the means of producin’ history. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: So back to your question about watchin’, um, Black Panther. It’s, it was great. I mean, some of it, some of it was – it referred to like [the Quran] and Nigeria, you know, and you’re like oh, yeah, I know that. And just seein’ Black people in the position of power, seein’ the creation of this Black utopia was like euphoric… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …for me just watchin’ it. You know. And so, I mean, you’re watchin’ people flyin’ around [like 12:29] Superman, like Superman and you’re like that guy looks like me. I can fly. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And the, and the kids are watchin’ it. And, you know, my kids are like, you know, 4 and 6 and, uh, they’re at that stage where, you know, they’re makin’ their own impressions of the world. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so it’s important for them… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …at a point to, to see, you know, people like them flyin’ around. So, you know, for me, it, it was, you know, it was great just, just watchin’ that movie. And, and cathartic too, you know. Um. I-, it, it feel like, you know, this is, this is something you’ve always wished for and to see it happening in your lifetime is really great. And so it’s effect on my work, um, I, I mean, my, my writing is basically, uh, m-, all my stories are set in Nigeria. You know. Um. Uh. W-, what it does is, I mean, w‑, every time we have a, a story about Black people, you know, bein’ pushed forward, th-, th-, what happens is that all the stories about Black [boys 13:34] are beginning to gain some kinda prominence. Kimberly Williams: Hm. [Inaudible 13:37]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: So you see that trickle-down effect. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so you have more – you feel like someone is, is finally listenin’. Kimberly Williams: Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so you wanna push yourself out there ‘cause you know it’s like now we’re findin’ our voice, you know, so great things m-, better things, might happen out there ‘cause, you know, when you push your work out there, you don’t know who – how anyone reacts to it. You know? Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 13:59]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Uh. I was havin’ a talk with Bill yesterday and he was tellin’ me how he had found my story. And he’s, he’s like people [online 14:06] were sayin’ have you read this story in [Jungle Gym 14:08]. And, you know, [inaudible 14:10] I don’t even know [this guy 14:11] and this story was published a long time ago. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so yes, it’s, i-, it makes ya think that more people are beginning to listen and perhaps we will gain prominence with [this 14:26], um, [censuring of our 14:27] story, you know… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …in, in, in, you know, in the West, you know. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And hopefully throughout the world. Kimberly Williams: Okay. [Inaudible 14:35]. And just as, you know, Afrofuturism has, um – it’s really sort of like became so public with, you know, with Black Panther. Um. [14:47] From your perspective, what does Afrofuturism offer society at the moment? What does it offer for critique or, or liberation or, or opportunity? Iheoma Nwachukwu: [sighing] I mean, it’s, it’s another way of experiencing the world, you know, ‘cause, you know, one might be right to say that before this time, there’s like this one way of lookin’ at the world, which is, you know, through Hollywood or, or other, um, [tsk] avenues of… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …expression that are not controlled by Black people. So, so… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …it offers a way to highlight just the fact that, you know, a, a Black utopia is possible. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And you see how it galvanized a lotta people when Black Panther came out. A lotta people, you know – people wearin’, um, um, but like African clothes and went to the cinema. And they spent a lotta money and it showed… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that if you make a movie and they’re all Black people and it’s great, people are gonna go out and watch it regardless of whether they’re Black or White. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know, uh, people are gonna make money. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: So that, you know, the color of your skin doesn’t real-, really, you know, capitalism as a system doesn’t really care… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …whether, you know, you’re Black or White. I mean, the, the, um, [tsk] the, the, the thinkin’ before was that if you ma-, if you have only Black people in a movie, no one’s gonna go out and watch it. You know, it’s gonna tank… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …at the box office. You know, [inaudible 16:14] White people [there 16:17], you know… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …as like the lead cast, you know, you’re not gonna make a lotta money. But of course… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know, it p-, Black Panther prove, uh, uh, proved that that’s not a case. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Um, so yes, so, so that’s basically, um, what I feel, you know, the Black, Black Panther, the movies, what it did, you know, by, you know, it’s exis-, existence itself. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: I forget the other parts of your question. Kimberly Williams: [16:45] Oh, so what does Afrofuturism like offer like, you know, critiques or and liberation opportunities? So you have touched [inaudible 16:52]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: [sighing] Afro liberation, I mean, I wanna say some that there is, there’s a criticism of Afrofuturism in Africa… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …by certain writers who believe that Afrofuturism only caters to the African American narrative. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And though – uh, and, I mean, as a, as a writer in South Africa who’s sayin’ that, um, that though she lives in this place and she has her own local problems and that Afrofuturism isn’t gonna come and save her. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. You know, uh, that h-, her story isn’t centered, you know, in the Afrofuturism… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …push. And of course, you know, like in the U.S., Afrofuturism i-, is a way to empower Black people. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: It’s empowerin’ Black people [inaudible 17:41]. Black Panther did seem to empower Black people. Uh, and while that writer in South Africa might have, uh, like s-, her grievances might be, um, you know, legitimate… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …uh, m-, my counter to that is that a-, anywhere, any story that makes a Black person look good, all this trickles down. Right. ‘Cause, you know, it always trickles down in, in, in different ways. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know. Um. And so and I was, I was, I mean, I was thinkin’ about this like a couple days ago about like how Afrofuturism can be used for liberation. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Even i-, [sighin] like for instance sayin’ Nigeria where we have a dictator right now as, as a president. Uh. I-, if a, if, if an artist makes art usin’ that president’s face on, say, I don’t know, um, [sighing] and I’m, I’m not presc-, prescribin’ this but like on like a horse’s body as a way to talk about what sort of person that president is… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that, that, that leads to, you know, d-, it adds to the conversation about what’s happenin’ in that country. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so that’s a way in which Afrofuturism can, you know, help for those in – for those of us in Africa, help get us outta the problems or, or spark a debate about the state of our affairs, you know, instead of, you know – that’s just – I mean, ‘cause Afrofutur-, Afrofuturism has many, um, [tracks 19:17]. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know, so th-, so [inaudible 19:20], you know, i-, in music, we have that. Y-, you know, we have it in, uh, in, in, in literature. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Art could be, uh, the form of expression ‘cause that person was sayin’ that thing was writer. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Yeah. So yeah. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 19:34]. Thank you. Thank you for that thorough answer. [19:37] And, you know, with that, [inaudible 19:40] even further, where do you see [clicking] the relationship, the link between Afrofuturism and Zora Neale Hurston? Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know, uh, [sighing] when I was a, a master student at, um, UT – I did, I did my master at UT at the Michener Center for Writers. I took a class called the, um, [tsk] Haiti and American Imagination and, you know… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …and learned about, you know, when she went to Haiti and that ethnogra-, ethnography, uh, where she, you know, studied the people by becomin’ part of the people. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so there’s somethin’ adventurous about her spirit. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: A-, and, and there’s like a – there’s a boldness about her. And so there’s a boldness about Afrofuturism, uh, which is part of the spirit of Zora. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Just going out. Um. There’s no one’s gonna do it for us. We are gonna need to shine a light on, on ourselves. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know. A-, and the idea of immersing yourself in a culture to study that culture, you know, bein’ part of the voodoo practices in Haiti. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: [Not 20:45] just, you know, separating yourself from the people the way that maybe f-, other people would separate themselves… Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know, to study them. But bein’ part of that process itself… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that’s somethin’ that’s unique to Afrofuturism ‘cause, you know, we’re immersin’ ourselves in our own culture. And, and, and in order to navigate this world and, and shine a light on ourselves in order to change the narrative about, you know, Black people and Black culture… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know, and Black works. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 21:18]. [21:19] And do you think the Zora Neale Hurston Festival engagement with Afrofuturism continues Hurston’s legacy? Iheoma Nwachukwu: I think it does. E-, e-, especially, of course, because, um, because of the, the fact o-, of the, um, of Afrofuturism bein’ a b-, a bold vehicle to explore, um, our place in the world. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Because the thing is as Black people in America, as Black people around the world, they’re yearnin’ for a place in the world. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so, uh, that continues her, her legacy ‘cause basically she was [trying 21:56]. In order to find her place in the world, she had to interact with Black people in other places… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …to shine a light… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …in order to understand who she was so, so she could find her place in America. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right, and so, so she was yearnin’ and Afrofuturism is basically Black people yearnin’ to find themselves. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And so, and so that’s why I think, you know, that, that conversation, that relationship, will continue ‘cause basically we are interested in the same things. Kimberly Williams: Hm. [Inaudible 22:28]. [22:29] And what do you think contemporary Afrofuturist can learn from Zora Neale Hurston and other early, um, scholars, related scholars? Iheoma Nwachukwu: I would say, uh, it would be that in order for you to get from one place, like a place of weakness to a place of strength… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you do have to, um, make some sacrifices. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And I think s-, um, a-, a-, and I mean for, for us as writers, we do have to understand that we’re gonna take some heat. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. And, uh, we’re gonna sacrifice a lotta things. And so lookin’ forward… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you must say – we must say to ourselves in order for us to have a f-, a better future, we need to do this thing and so sometimes, uh, things are gonna be bad. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know. But hopefully we’ll be in a better place in the future. And that’s, you know, that – the idea that it’s, it’s not – what we’re doin’ isn’t, you know, a cushy, um, we’re [inaudible 23:35] in a soft, cushy place. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: We’re in a place where we’re gonna have to make sacrifices. Kimberly Williams: [Yeah 23:41]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And we have to be bold and make the sacrifices, you know, in order to move forward. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 23:45]. Yes. [23:48] So I am [tsk] thinking about taking, um, your course but I don’t really know too much about Afrofuturism, so what would be – what would – what sort of Afrofuturistic mixtape you would give me that would include maybe like 3 to 5 really, um, important sort of snapshots, uh, or artifacts of Afrofuturism that you think would be just tremendous for a new beginning author, leader, creator to get into? And it could be across music, art, um, you know, of course texts. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Okay, so basically, you know, um, I mean, I do mostly [literary 24:33] fiction… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …so this is like my mixtape for… Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know… Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …what Afrofuturism is. Um. [tsk] I would say, um, let’s see. Uh. I would, I would say f-, uh, there’s a m-, the musician called Fela, Fela Kuti. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: I would say Fela is like, you know, is, is a good jumpin’ off point. Um. There’s a lot of art, too. I mean, I can’t – I don’t know names, uh, right off the top a my head but like, you know, one could search for a lot of this, a lot of these, a lot of artists who are doin’ like incredible things. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know, um, just visually. Visual art. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: There’s a lot of that going on. Um. [tsk] Bill Cam-, Campbell’s, all of, all of his anthology are great, you know. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Um. [Inaudible 25:21] I would recommend [inaudible 25:22] a book, a novel, titled An Unkindness of Ghosts… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …by Rivers Solomon. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Um. [tsk] ‘Cause, I mean, it’s set in the future a-, and it’s all, it’s, I mean, it clearly shows the intersection between, you know, just Black people a-, and science. Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Um. [tsk] Let me see. [sighing] I’m tryin’ to think of this, this, um, musician. I forgot what, what her name is. She’s, she’s always in a lot of Afrofuturist stuff. Um. [tsk] Um. God, I forget… Kimberly Williams: Janelle Monáe? Erykah Badu? Iheoma Nwachukwu: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Kimberly Williams: Um. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Monáe. Kimberly Williams: Oh, Monáe. Okay. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Yes. [laughter] Yes. She’s amazin’. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: She’s amazin’. Uh. Kimberly Williams: Absolutely, yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Yeah. I think sh-, she, she’s a good example and what she does, you know, uh, she does music but also when you look at the set, [inaudible 26:24] watch her videos, just visually what’s she’s… Kimberly Williams: Hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …doin’. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: So like… Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 26:29]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …[inaudible 26:30] although it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s music, it’s also like, um, film. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And she’s doin’ that all in one shot like, you know, um… Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …you know. She’s doin’ her music video, you see all of the futuristic things she’s doin’, you know, and it’s all Black people. Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Right. Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 26:49]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Um. [clicking] Yeah. Um. Who else? I would say – I mean, I, I think The Black Jacobins by C.L.R. James is like a really… Kimberly Williams: Oh. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …excellent… Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …book. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know. It’s a, it’s a g-, it’s a good book ‘cause [sniffing] like I said, how I define Afrofuturism is basically just any work that shows Black people in, in… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …a good light. Kimberly Williams: Yes. Iheoma Nwachukwu: You know. And y-, you sort of understand, uh, the [inaudible 27:20] of slavery and, and how, um, you know, Black people f-, really did fight to emancipate themselves and of course in Haiti, they were successful. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And how that, that isn’t always part of the conversation. Right. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And of course when you look at Haiti, for instance, you look at the problems that Haiti’s had and you understand how France, you know, countries in Europe, the U.S.... Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …were part of the problem, you know… Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 27:47]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …when, when, uh, the Black people em-, emancipated themselves. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Part of that tr-, you know, how they created that treaty [inaudible 27:55]… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …that allowed, uh, Haiti to suffer. And, and that’s, I mean, that, that story doesn’t get told enough. And so a lotta people don’t know that’s why Haiti… Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …is where it is today. Kimberly Williams: Mm-hm. Iheoma Nwachukwu: And so, you know, anything that helps, it’s… Kimberly Williams: [Inaudible 28:12]. Iheoma Nwachukwu: …useful. Kimberly Williams: [That’s right 28:13]. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. That, that concludes our interview. [28:19] Do you have any other last thoughts or comments? Iheoma Nwachukwu: [tsk] [sighing] [clicking] No. Kimberly Williams: No? [laughter] Iheoma Nwachukwu: No. Kimberly Williams: Thank you. Iheoma Nwachukwu: [Inaudible 28:30]. Kimberly Williams: Thank you. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Well, thank you for havin’ me. Kimberly Williams: Thank you [laughter] so much. Your work is stunning… Iheoma Nwachukwu: Thank you. Kimberly Williams: …as well as your outfit. Iheoma Nwachukwu: Thank you. Kimberly Williams: Thank you. [siren] [clicking] Iheoma Nwachukwu: Thank you. /ad