Interview of Margaret Pauline Stenson on serving with her husband as a teacher in the American Indian Native Service in the Alaskan territory during WWII Elsie Hornbacher: This is Margaret Pauline Stenson recording for the Lansing unit of the Women’s Overseas Service League. Margaret lives at 207 47th Avenue Drive West, Bradenton, Florida 33507. She may be located at this address. The date today is October 2nd, 1984. Um. Well, go ahead, Margaret. [0:37] Where did y-, uh, where did you, uh, spend your time overseas? Margaret Stenson: I spent my time overseas in Alaska. Uh. My husband and I had – uh, wanted to, to do something different. We were both teachers and, uh, we applied and, and finally, uh, got a, an appointment to Alaska in 1933. And the appointment was as teachers in, um, tsk, uh, Indian service. The Alaskan Native Service Department of the, um, Department of Interior and we, uh, we went to Alaska and that’s where we taught in the, um, in the Federal Government service for, uh, um, 15 years and then, uh, one year of our service w-, uh, in Federal Government was in – uh, on the Navajo Indian Reservation, so I always say that I had 16 years of Federal service. Elsie Hornbacher: [1:46] Hm. Are you on a Federal retirement system? Margaret Stenson: No, I am not [laughter] because when I – 16 years is not too much for a pension and so when I came back to Michigan, uh, and brought all of my teaching credits, it was better for me to be, um, retired with the Michigan Retired Teachers Assoc-, uh, what do we call it, Association rather than the Federal Government. Elsie Hornbacher: Hm. [2:17] Couldn’t you have had both? Margaret Stenson: No, you may not have both. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh! I didn’t know. Well, I’m glad to hear that. Margaret Stenson: You may not. At least that’s what they told me down at the, the department here, the Michigan Retired Teachers Department in Lansing. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So, they did the thing that they did. They took my, uh, years of service in the Federal Government and, uh, because I went to Alaska so long [laughter] ago and the salary was so, so, uh, small, and of course when I came back into Michigan, then I had to pay back into their retirement system and it, it worked out better for me to use those years than some of my other teaching years. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And so now I am, I’m retired. Uh. I have a Michigan teacher’s retirement pension. Elsie Hornbacher: [3:13] You decided to go, uh, to Alaska then with your husband, is that right? Margaret Stenson: Yes, we both went. Mm-hm. [We were] [inaudible 3:18]. Elsie Hornbacher: [3:18] What did he do? Margaret Stenson: He was a teacher. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, he was a teacher too. Margaret Stenson: He was a teacher, and we went – uh, our first station was at, uh, a little, um, uh, Eskimo village called Shishmaref, and Shishmaref is on an island and north of Wales in s-, in the Arctic Ocean – on the Arctic Ocean coast, and we were there our first four years. Tsk. That was from 1931 – I mean ’33; 1933 to 1937. Elsie Hornbacher: [3:51] Uh, w-, uh, roughly how far is Shishmaref from Anchorage? [inaudible 3:56] about? Margaret Stenson: Tsk. Oh, it’s a long, it’s a long way away from Anchorage. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Yes. It’s more – i-, it’s out… Elsie Hornbacher: [inaudible 4:01] five, six hundred miles? Margaret Stenson: Oh dear, I don’t know in mileage. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: I, I’m gonna guess it’s farther than that… Elsie Hornbacher: Okay. Margaret Stenson: …but, um, it’s better to, to try to located Shishmaref from Nome. Uh, Nome and Shishmaref are on the, uh, tsk, Seward Peninsula and, uh, if you know where the Straits are, uh, between, uh, the United States and, and Russia, then… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …we were 75 miles along the coast north of that. Elsie Hornbacher: Ooh! Margaret Stenson: So, uh, we were just, uh, 15 miles south of the Arctic Circle when we were at Shishmaref. [laughter] Elsie Hornbacher: Mm. Goodness. [4:43] Then you, you were able to see perpetual days in the summertime, weren’t you? Margaret Stenson: Yes. Yes, uh-huh. Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And it’s – uh, it isn’t so difficult to adjust yourself to perpetual days because it’s a gradual thing. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: As, uh, [inaudible 5:00] you get – you can recognize the difference in, uh, daylight as – and, uh, as the daylight lengthens, 15 minutes a day of, of, uh, daylight on both ends of the day… Elsie Hornbacher: Is that right? Margaret Stenson: …adds up pretty fast. Elsie Hornbacher: It sure does. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: I have, uh, been, uh, uh, within the Arctic Circle in Norway. Margaret Stenson: Oh, yes. Mm-hm. So, you know what that’s like a little bit. Elsie Hornbacher: Right. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. We were there four years and then the, uh, Federal Government had decided that [throat clearing] they would – uh, all of their teachers had to have a Bachelors – uh, a degree, and I did not have my degree. I needed an extra year of college, so we took a year’s leave of absence and, and came to, uh, tsk, Michigan – back to Michigan and, and we went to the University of Michigan for a year and my husband and I got his master’s degree that year at, at, uh, University of Michigan and then when I finished that year, I had – I still needed six hours of credit to graduate, so I took [care of 6:11] all my credits back to Western and I’m – I have my, my, uh, Bachelor of Arts degree from Western Michigan University. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Um. [6:24] D-, d-, did you go back to Alaska… Margaret Stenson: Oh yes! Elsie Hornbacher: …after that then? Margaret Stenson: Oh yes. Then we went back, and when we went back, i-, that year in 1938, uh, Mr. Stenson, uh, took a job with the Reindeer Service and we lived in Nome that year. Elsie Hornbacher: [6:40] With the reindeer, did you say? Margaret Stenson: With the Reindeer Service. The U.S. Government Reindeer Service. Elsie Hornbacher: [6:45] You went to Nome. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. We were in Nome, and I taught in the, in the, uh, Alaska Native Service School in Nome and then, uh, tsk, he was in the Reindeer Service, but then the, the government moved us, uh, the next year, 1939, to Kotzebue and, uh, he – and we were in Kotzebue when, uh, uh, the, the, uh, Japanese invaded Alaska. Elsie Hornbacher: [7:17] Uh, what islands had the Japanese taken, do you remember? Margaret Stenson: Well, I remember that they, uh, had taken the island, uh, of Attu and also in this area of, uh, Unimak… Elsie Hornbacher: [7:32] Unimak? Margaret Stenson: …pass. Unimak. The island of Unimak and the Unimak pass part, uh, Dutch Harbor – in the area of Dutch Harbor, uh, but, uh, of course, we were up in the – in Kotzebue and, um, uh, we were there for – in, in Kotzebue at the time that, uh, that, uh, of – let’s see, that would be 19 – December 1941. Elsie Hornbacher: 1941. Margaret Stenson: Is that right? Elsie Hornbacher: December 19-, uh, that’s when Pearl Harbor was taken… Margaret Stenson: Yes. Okay. That’s it. Elsie Hornbacher: …December 7. Uh-huh. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: [8:10] Weren’t you afraid? Margaret Stenson: [laughter] Well, I was a long, I was a long way from, from the Aleutian Islands because – I, uh, should tell ya that we had in our home just, um, a battery radio and we – uh, it was a good radio, but we were a long ways away from anyplace where we could get extra batteries, so we were always very careful about not turning on the radio for anything but news, and so on the, on the, uh, that would be the, the probably the – not the very day but it would be the morning that we would – could’ve heard about it or we might have been able to hear about the attack on the Aleutians by the Japanese. Uh, if we had a – had the radio on all – constantly, but we didn’t because we had to save the battery… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …of the radio. So, Mr. Stenson was one of these people who loved to sleep on Saturday morning and he was upstairs in our home sleeping, and I got up that morning and I was finishing my Christmas cards because I, I still didn’t have all of my Christmas letters and my Christmas cards done. And he – uh, when he got up, he turned on the radio, and I, I can still remember how disgusted he was with me because I had not turned on the radio and I had missed all of this news of the Japanese attack. But of course, [laughter] he could have been out of bed earlier, too, and [laughter] listened to it. But that was how we happened to hear about it. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And then, uh, that day they, um, all of the, uh, um, government people in Kotzebue, uh, met, and I think that it would be better for me now to stop and tell about k-, a little bit about Kotzebue… Elsie Hornbacher: Go ahead. Margaret Stenson: …uh, because in Kotzebue we had, uh, a government school – uh, a-, Alaskan Native Service School for the Eskimos and that school, uh, was from – of Kindergarten through the 8th grades and then if any of the children after they finished 8th grade wanted to go on to school, they went to boarding schools either in Alaska or down in the lower states, but in Kotzebue, we had the government school, then we had a government hospital with doctors and nurses, we had, uh, a Signal Core and at that time at the Signal Core, there were two men, uh, and they were married and their wives lived there. We had a commissioner – u-, United States commissioner, we had a United States Post Office, and all of these government, uh, uh, organizations were – uh, at that time they, they were, um, um, run by White people, not – we did not have native people in those days in those positions. But besides that, in Kotzebue, we had three large, big trading company stores; huge, big companies and they did all of the, um, all of the, uh, business and the trading. And then besides that, we had an airplane company that was – a small airplane company that was located in Kotzebue. Uh, that gives you an idea that we had, uh, uh, quite a few people there who were government people, so that… Elsie Hornbacher: [12:19] By quite a few, do you mean 50 or do you mean 100? Margaret Stenson: I – uh-huh, around 50 people. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. A-, and they were all in some way – except the store people, were connuc-, connected with the – with different departments of the government. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So on, on the day of [sighing], of, um, Pearl Harbor Day, they all met plus, uh, the people – the native people who were on the Native Counsel and, uh, th-, they made a decision that, that they would, um, tsk, have to do something to, uh, guard or to protect Kotzebue. And, uh, um, they had – uh, um, the, the, uh, Signal Core men sort of took charge because they felt that they were the closest to the, the army – uh, the military of any of us, so they took charge, and right away at this meeting they decided that, uh, they would have to, um, organize all of the men in town; that would include all of the Eskimo, uh, men as well as the, the, the government men and the White men. And they listed – they made a list of everybody and then they assigned different, uh, parts of the, of the little village that they were to guard and, uh, the, um, thing that, that was really interesting was that, um, Thor was to – my husband, Thor, was to guard the schoolhouse and, uh, he had a – uh, his – uh, he had several guns but he carried his, uh, .30-06 that night, and he, he walked all the way around all – uh, he did guard duty all around the schoolhouse, and I was the one that was only inside being guarded. Elsie Hornbacher: [laughter] Margaret Stenson: Then they had… Elsie Hornbacher: One man... Margaret Stenson: …one man. Elsie Hornbacher: … guarding the schoolhouse. Margaret Stenson: One man was guarding and I was inside. Elsie Hornbacher: [laughter] With a little communication, a radio that has batteries were limited. [laughter] [14:44] How did you… Margaret Stenson: Well. Elsie Hornbacher: …get supplies there, by the way? Margaret Stenson: To Kotzebue? Elsie Hornbacher: [14:48] Uh, did you – and – but the battery, uh, how often did you get them? Margaret Stenson: We got – uh, our supplies came in those days by, uh, by, um, tsk, freighter. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [14:59] And how often? Margaret Stenson: Th-, uh-huh. The – they came – we always got at least, uh, one big, um, freighter from Seattle, where the Alaska Steamship Company came at least once a year and then… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, once a year! [laughter] Margaret Stenson: Once a year. And then we had, um, we had a mail boat that came from Nome at least twice a month during the summertime. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Margaret Stenson: And, uh, then we had, uh, the government boat came only once from Seattle in, into Kotzebue. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, um, uh, now Kotzebue is in – on Kotzebue – um, up the Kotzebue Sound, and, uh, the ship – i-, that’s, uh, uh, tsk, shallow, so the big ships are not able to come into Kotzebue. They have to be, uh, lightered. Uh. Everything had to be lightered from the big ship in the – and the, uh, big freighter lay off, uh, shore from Kotzebue at least 15 miles. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, um, e-, everything was – everything came by boat in those days except we had airplanes, and our airplanes, um, could bring us things from Fairbanks. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: But, uh, um, I’ll go back to this, um, business of, of, uh, how the men had organized. Well, [throat clearing] they, they guarded the Signal Core buildings, they guarded the hospital, they guarded the commissioner’s, uh, um, home and little office and the post office, and then – now this was in, in deep winter and so the thing… Elsie Hornbacher: It was cold. Margaret Stenson: Yes! And when p-, we had lots of snow and big snowbanks, so the thing that they did down at the Signal Core, uh, I think that the Signal Core people, because they, they had ways of, of hearing what was going on and we didn’t, that they, um, they were more frightened than we were because, uh, I, I f-, I think that, that we knew that they could come in by airplane but at that time of the year, they couldn’t have possibly gotten in by ship to us. And, uh, but the thing that they did at the Signal Core, tsk, they, uh, um, had paths, uh, that they had cut out of the snow and they let everybody know that if, uh, anybody, uh, came at – and approached the building and didn’t stay on the path, that they’d shoot’m! Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So, when you had to take, uh, a telegram down to have it sent out by the Signal Core people, you were mighty careful where you walked and let them know that you were coming so [laughter] they didn’t starting shooting you. Elsie Hornbacher: [laughter] Margaret Stenson: Well, my husband and the doctor had, uh, talked it over and they had said that, uh, they would have to have another meeting because the Eskimo men, uh, would not be able to stand the amount of time, uh, guarding these buildings that the, the committee had decided that they would have to do because Eskimo people do not – uh, they, they have to go out in their – uh, with their dogsleds. And in those days, it was dogsled, not, not these, uh, snowmobiles. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: I understand now they use snowmobiles, but in those days, it was dogsleds… Elsie Hornbacher: [19:11] How many dogs to a sled? I’ve often wondered. Margaret Stenson: …and dogs. Uh, anywhere from eight – uh, seven, they’re uneven numbers, seven to 15… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. Margaret Stenson: …depending on where they were going, what condition the weather was in, how far the trip was going to be, who was going with them, how big the load would be. All depended. They didn’t have to take, uh, the same number every time, but I’ve seen… Elsie Hornbacher: They’re nice dogs too. Uh, h-, I had a sled dog. Margaret Stenson: Yeah. Uh-huh. Um. The – um, so they decided that the men, uh, couldn’t take that much time out of their, out of their daily, weekly chores that they had to do because they had to go after, they had to go after fuel, they had to go after wood, they had to go after, uh, um, tsk, uh, dog food, they had to w‑, go and, and take care of their traps, um, their trapline, and, uh, they had to fish, do ice fishing. They had to go to wherever they have their caches with their food, and so, tsk, finally they had another meeting and at the, the next meeting, they finally had to convince the, um, uh, Signal Core men – those two Signal Core men that it, it was, it was impossible for them to do it because they weren’t prepared, and, uh, it might be interesting to know that actually Eskimo people did not bring in a tremendous amount of supplies into a village for, uh – and have it there right in the village for the winter because in their culture, their culture says that if you have a supply and at this moment you’re not needing it and using it, then you sort of have to let me borrow it and I will eventually pay it back, but – uh, my husband used to talk to the, um, the Eskimo men, uh, when he was out at [corralling 21:29] and when he was out at camps with’m and he’d say to them, I can’t understand why you don’t bring in a tremendous amount of wood in the boat in the summertime and have it! And they’d say, ‘Well, if I did that, my – I, I wouldn’t have enough to last me the winter because it’s our way that if you ask me for it and I have it, I must give it to you and I would – I, I would be giving away… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …uh, my winter supply and I can’t, I, I can’t do that.’ Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So, uh, they, uh, uh, s-, we White people, we thought well, my goodness. It would be so much simpler [throat clearing], but we didn’t understand some of their problems that they had. Now, another thing that I remember about that particular time – that right – those few weeks right after Pearl Harbor, uh, one day, uh, a native man came – an Eskimo came to Mr. Stenson. He said, “May I borrow your .30-06?” And, uh, Thor said, “What, what do you need to do?” And this Eskimo was quite excited at the moment and he said, “Well.” He said, [throat clearing] “Uh, my gun isn’t very good.” And he said, “I’m going – uh, now we have seen somebody walking down by the inlet and we’re sure, we’re sure that it’s, it’s, uh, somebody that’s a stranger that has come.” Uh, and, uh, they, they didn’t know whether it was a Jap-, Japanese or who it was, but they were – he was frightened and so Thor said, “Yes, uh, you take the gun, but you better be sure that, that it isn’t somebody that, uh, you know. Before you shoot, be sure you know who it is.” And pretty soon, the native came back and he said it was the priest. [laughter] The priest had on a, on a long black overcoat, and they’d never seen him wear that and he was walking along the inlet that’s behi-, on the shore behind the, the village. But, um, then… Elsie Hornbacher: [23:55] How did you get those paths, uh, cleared out? Did you shovel’m by hand? Margaret Stenson: They shoveled. Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: [24:00] By hand. Margaret Stenson: By hand. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. We didn’t have, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: A snowblower. [laughter] Margaret Stenson: …snowblowers in those days at all, no. Elsie Hornbacher: Well that would be a lot of shoveling. Margaret Stenson: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: [24:10] How deep were they? I would imagine… Margaret Stenson: Oh! They, um, they were probably as high as my hips are. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I see. Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: They weren’t – uh, where the paths were. Uh, it would depend on where the snowbanks were. Elsie Hornbacher: Right. Margaret Stenson: Now, in the – I think – uh, we always think of Alaska as having lots of snow… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and in northern Alaska, we don’t have that much snow, but it looks as if we do because of the snowbanks. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: The wind blows the snow and, and it – any, anything that it hits, any obstruction, then it begins to pile up beside that but it’s – you – we had snowbanks clear out to our second story windows… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm. Margaret Stenson: …in our buildings, but I could see the grass sticking out on the – over on the, uh, runway of – for the airplanes or out on the meadow. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So, it wasn’t that we had, you know, lots of deep snow all over, it was… Elsie Hornbacher: Right. Margaret Stenson: …it blew into the village and blew a huge, big… Elsie Hornbacher: I know my children in school, in science [throat clearing] always when I said it doesn’t snow when it, uh, gets real cold, and the children wondered how we had so much snow in Alaska… Margaret Stenson: Hm. Elsie Hornbacher: …if it didn’t snow when it was, you know, way… Margaret Stenson: Hm. Elsie Hornbacher: …below zero, and I explained to them that, uh, there was drifting and then there were periods… Margaret Stenson: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: …of time when it did snow when the temperatures would be hovering around… Margaret Stenson: That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: …the freezing point. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. We had a hu-, uh, every year we had a huge snowbank between the hospital and, and the schoolhouse… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …in Kotzebue and that’s where we had our bomb shelter. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: They – the, uh, men had dug – uh, actually they had dug a tunnel betw-, uh, right – so we didn’t have to go over the snowbank to get to the hospital… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and then they had enlarged that tunnel so that it became the bomb shelter and we had, uh, tsk, uh, we had drills… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …uh, with the schoolchildren where we went out and, uh, and had a – we had the bell – the bell would be rung and, and all of the children, uh, went out of the schoolhouse and into the bomb shelter… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and then, um, tsk, uh, and then the all-clear sign would, would clear and, and give us th-, they’d ring the bell, I suppose that was it. I can’t remember how, w-, how they did it, but, um, tsk, then we’d all go back into the schoolhouse. So, we did have, uh, we had bomb shelter drills and, and, uh, um, tsk, then, uh, they, uh, organized the Alaska – tsk, let me think now what it’s called. Uh, [sighing] the, um, Alaska Native, Alaska Native, uh, not Signal Core but… Elsie Hornbacher: [27:21] Guard? Margaret Stenson: …uh, guard. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Margaret Stenson: Yeah. National Guard, that’s it. Elsie Hornbacher: Okay. Margaret Stenson: The Alaska Native National Guard. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, uh, Mr. Stenson was one of the officers in the Alaska Native National Guard… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and a great many of the, of the, uh, uh, boys – uh, they, uh, tsk, registered for the draft and, uh, a great many of the Eskimo boys went into the Army, and I always think it’s rather interesting that, uh, tsk, uh, they sent the Alaskan boys to Alabama and North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, and then they – the, uh, army that – uh, the army units, they came up to Alaska, came from the deep south too. [laughter] So they, they, [laughter] they sent our boys out and they sent other Southern boys in. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Uh, but, uh, now, there were – as far as, uh, shipping was concerned, there were no ships that came into the Arctic because – uh, at that time of the year, no ships came through the, uh, tsk… Elsie Hornbacher: [28:42] Bering Straits? Margaret Stenson: …the Bering Straits… Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Margaret Stenson: …until, until, uh, summertime the next summer. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [28:49] What did you eat up there? Margaret Stenson: Well, in Kotzebue, we ate food – canned food… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …a lot. In Kotzebue – you remember I told you we had three big trading posts… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and those trading posts had all kinds of, of, uh, food. Elsie Hornbacher: [29:08] By big, do you mean… [laughing] Margaret Stenson: I mean – I’m – uh, let me think. Uh, uh. Elsie Hornbacher: Not as big as a Kroger’s store or Meijer’s store here! [laughter] Margaret Stenson: Ah ha. [inaudible 29:18] D-, the, uh, depot – the Michigan Central Depot downtown? Elsie Hornbacher: Yes. Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: As big as that. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I see. [29:26] And you had lots of food there… Margaret Stenson: And we had lots of food. Elsie Hornbacher: …so you didn’t have to worry about eating, then. Margaret Stenson: No. And, and in… Elsie Hornbacher: Except the monotony of it. Margaret Stenson: Yeah. Now in those days when we lived there in nine-, in Kotzebue… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …from nineteen – uh, I’d like to back up a little bit… Elsie Hornbacher: Go ahead. Margaret Stenson: …because, uh, um, out here where Shishmaref was, our first station on Seward Peninsula, there were several reindeer herds… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …uh, and, and, uh, we had a, a very excellent, uh, man, uh, who was, uh, um, a rancher from, uh, Montana, I believe, and he told the government – he was a government man, and he had charge of this as-, this area and he said that if they did not, uh, kill off, uh, more, uh, or, what should I call it, lessen their herds… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …that they wouldn’t have any reindeer in a few years. Elsie Hornbacher: Right. They’d die in the winter. Margaret Stenson: Th-, huh, that they – yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Food supply. Margaret Stenson: It was – they – there was plenty of food supply for summer grazing… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …but reindeer eat reindeer moss… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and – in the wintertime, and when they dis-, when they’ve eaten up and have no more reindeer moss, then there were – then they either migrate or they die. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And so, we went in 1933, uh, to Shishmaref. Plenty of reindeer. By the time we got up to Kotzebue in 1939, the herds had been depleted ‘til there, there were hardly any herds left. Now the Noorvik, uh, village had a good herd. Kivalina had, uh, still had a herd. So, you’re asking what we ate, we always had reindeer. Elsie Hornbacher: Meat. Margaret Stenson: All – reindeer meat all the time. Elsie Hornbacher: [31:29] How does it taste? I ate it. It was dried the time I had it. Margaret Stenson: Reindeer meat – uh, rein-, that’s right. Because, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Like beef, only dried. Margaret Stenson: …the fat, the fat on a reindeer lays just under the skin. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And it isn’t… Elsie Hornbacher: Marbled. Margaret Stenson: …marbled like beef is. S-, you have to know how to cook and you have to add spices and you have to add, you have to add some extra fat because as a rule, um, it is dry. It is drier than most meat, but it tastes like, it tastes like, uh, Michigan deer. Elsie Hornbacher: Yes, I would say so, too. Margaret Stenson: Yeah, it does. Uh-huh. Elsie Hornbacher: [32:16] Did you have milk of any sort up there? Margaret Stenson: No. We had canned milk… Elsie Hornbacher: [32:20] But you didn’t have [inaudible 32:21]. Margaret Stenson: …but we had no cows. Elsie Hornbacher: [32:22] No cows up there. Margaret Stenson: No, no cows. Mm-hm. They had… Elsie Hornbacher: [32:25] There weren’t any babies up there, were there? Margaret Stenson: What? Elsie Hornbacher: [32:27] There weren’t any babies up there, were there? Margaret Stenson: Baby what? Elsie Hornbacher: Baby children. Margaret Stenson: Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: They would need milk but they would have to nurse’m [inaudible 32:35]. Margaret Stenson: They didn’t – that’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: Or they could have the canned milk. Margaret Stenson: Oh, I see… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …what you mean. Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: But there were cows in Nome… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I see. Then you could have gotten some [inaudible 32:43]. Margaret Stenson: …and there – yes, in Nome there were cows. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So, uh, you could buy milk but, uh, i-, after you live in Alaska for a while, you get so that you like canned milk. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, uh, uh, wherever the native people could afford to buy canned milk, they bought it, uh, especially in Kotzebue because Kotzebue was more of a, of a place where people had opportunities to work and to make, uh, money. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: They didn’t have to do it all by the fishing and hunting. Elsie Hornbacher: [33:21] Did you get out of Kotzebue very often? Margaret Stenson: Out of there? Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Well the first… Elsie Hornbacher: [33:26] Did you travel, I mean? Margaret Stenson: Yes. Uh, the, the first summer that we lived in Kotzebue, we went, um, uh, we went on a, a trip up the Kobuk River, uh, to, um, to Shungnak, and I stayed with the government teacher at Shungnak and, uh, Mr. Stenson went on with two other men and he went on up into the, uh, the Colville River on a, a hunting trip, uh, a, uh, tsk, oh, a sheep hunting trip. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Dall – he was hunting for Dall sheep. And, uh, then, uh, the other summer that we were there – full summer we were in Kotzebue, we had, um, a nursery school, uh, or a preschool. A summer school. Uh, and we – well, we had that – every summer that we were in Alaska we had – teaching in the Native Service. We always had summer schools, and we did other things, fun things rather than, uh, than the regular school curriculum. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [34:38] What – uh, how many children did you have in school up there? Margaret Stenson: Well, in Kotzebue, we must have had around, uh, a-, a-, approximately 90 to 100 children, and there we did have an extra teacher. Elsie Hornbacher: [34:51] You had three teachers? Margaret Stenson: We had – uh-huh. We had, uh, three teachers. One time – one year, we had four t-, uh, four teachers and all Mr. Stenson did was to be the principal and then the other three, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Taught. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. Margaret Stenson: Because there’s a tremendous work in Kotzebue to be done. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Uh, since it was the hub of all of the business of the upriver stations. There was Noorvik, Selawik, Kivalina, Kiana, Shungnak, uh, did I say Noorvik? And all those, uh, all those stations came downriver to – in the summertime, there were approximately 15,000 people in Kotzebue in the summertime. Elsie Hornbacher: [35:37] You said there was a lot of work up there. What do you mean by a lot of work? Margaret Stenson: Well, just, uh, just the kind of – well, for instance, if supplies came in, they came into our warehouse. All of those supplies had to be redistributed and go upriver by, uh, by, uh, riverboat. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. Margaret Stenson: And that, uh, that kind of business. Elsie Hornbacher: [36:00] You mentioned, uh, being in the second story. D-, you lived in a house. A wooden frame house? Or a brick house? Margaret Stenson: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: [36:06] What kind of a house? Margaret Stenson: Lived in a great big barn of a building, and we had – uh, one end of it was our house and the other end of it was – uh, downstairs was the s-, the schoolroom for the upper grades and then upstairs was my, my r-, my room, my, uh, schoolroom for the, uh, the elementary – I mean the lower ones. Lower grades. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Oh, I see. Margaret Stenson: And I had Kindergarten, 1st, 2nd… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …uh, uh, I think I usually had the 3rd grade and the other teacher in another building, in another building had, uh, the 4th, 5th, and 6th, and then they – we’d have 7th and 8th. It depended how the, the number of, uh, children per grade worked out. We kind of fixed it so that around 30 children in the – in a room. Elsie Hornbacher: [37:03] Did you have help or did you have to do all your work yourself in your home? Margaret Stenson: I had a maid. Elsie Hornbacher: You had a maid. Margaret Stenson: Yes. In Kotz-… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [37:10] She made your bed and did some cooking for you? Margaret Stenson: In, in, Kotzebue I had to have a maid because c-, uh, my, my government home was the only place for travelers – for the government people that, that came, uh, back and forth. They, uh, supervisors and people from the Juneau office and people from Washington, and even I have had the governor of Alaska at my home in Kotzebue. Elsie Hornbacher: [37:40] So you had to entertain them, too, in addition to being a teacher. Margaret Stenson: Uh, yes. Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: [37:44] You had to act as an official host. Margaret Stenson: Yes. And I had… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Hostess. Margaret Stenson: …to – I had to have, uh, help there, but, um, I, I should’ve had help every place wherever I lived but I, I didn’t. When I lived at Shishmaref, I didn’t have help. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: I didn’t have maid service. Elsie Hornbacher: [38:03] Did your experience take you out of Alaska? Margaret Stenson: To go to something outside of Alaska? Elsie Hornbacher: Yeah. [38:10] Did you ever go to any other country? Margaret Stenson: Well, uh, I’ve been outside of – I’ve been outside the United States but not, not for any reason… Elsie Hornbacher: [38:20] Not for government service. Margaret Stenson: No. Not for government service, no. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: The only other government service that I did outside of Alaska was the year that we lived on the Navajo Indian Reservation. Elsie Hornbacher: [38:31] Oh, that was in, uh, what state? Margaret Stenson: That was in ariz-, Arizona. Elsie Hornbacher: Arizona. Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. But that, uh, that, um, tsk, uh, that was in 1950, ’51. Elsie Hornbacher: [38:44] Then you were in Alaska for a total of how many years? Margaret Stenson: Well, I – we went there in 1933… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and we took, we took a year’s leave of absence to go to the university. Elsie Hornbacher: [inaudible 38:59] college. Right. Margaret Stenson: And then another time we took a year’s leave of absence and went to, to Europe. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, uh, uh, so, the years that we were in Alaska added up to 19 years. Elsie Hornbacher: Nineteen years. Margaret Stenson: Wait a minute. Uh, I, I’m wrong. Uh, 18 years. Elsie Hornbacher: Eighteen. Margaret Stenson: Because the thing that we did, we – when we, uh, tsk, uh, went to Europe in 1950 for our year’s leave of absence, then when we came back, instead of going back to Alaska, we went to the Navajo. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Then from, from the Navajo, uh, then we went – w-, we did go back to Alaska but when we went back, we didn’t go into the Government Service, we went and taught in the Territorial Service… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …because Alaska was a territory all of the time that I ever lived there. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. [39:57] You never lived there, uh, when it was a state. Margaret Stenson: I never have lived there since it was a state. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [40:01] Uh, how did you, uh, take the end of the war in, in Alaska? Margaret Stenson: Well, this is what happened. I don’t – I, I’ve never believed that, um, tsk, a woman should work [laughter] as long her husband had a job. Elsie Hornbacher: [laughter] Margaret Stenson: I thought there were other things that were important for a woman to do. But when I went to Alaska, I started working, and I, I continued to work from then on. [laughter] Elsie Hornbacher: [laughter] Margaret Stenson: But, um, uh, I, uh, I had sort of promised or said that alright, if I worked then we’ll save what I make and we’ll use that for travel and education. And, uh, so we had a little plan in our mind when we went that we would stay in alas-, in Alaska and work for four years then we, we’d go out for four years on s-, on a trip. Then we’d go back in for four years. And that worked fine until the war came along and when, when, uh, we were supposed to have our, our year off in 1942, we wrote to the office in Juneau and asked them if, uh, th-, if we could have a year’s leave of absence and, uh, told them what we wanted to do; that we wanted to go to Europe. And the, the, um, uh, office wrote back and wanted to know if we didn’t know that there was a war on and nobody was taking [laughter] vacations. And we said, well, then they – uh, we wrote back and we said alright, if you want – if you don’t want us to take our year’s leave of absence, then, uh, i-, we will be glad to take a station in southeastern Alaska. So, they, they transferred us from Kotzebue to southeastern Alaska to a, a school at Klawock and actually, we were then in Klawock during the rest of the war years and that’s down in southeastern Alaska. Um, tsk, uh, just, just west of Ketchikan… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …eh, uh, on Prince of Wales Island. Elsie Hornbacher: [42:30] And that’s south of Juneau? Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. And so, we were there during the rest of the war and it, uh, the Japanese had even invaded some of the – this area, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: [42:44] By invaded, you mean they had [captured] [inaudible 42:45]. Margaret Stenson: Uh, they had, they had come ashore. They had come ashore and had, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: [42:50] And taken the buildings the Americans had? Margaret Stenson: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. Now, um, uh, when they attacked out here in the Aleutians, they killed the schoolteacher at Attu… Elsie Hornbacher: Hm. I see. Margaret Stenson: …and they took his wife – captured. They captured her, took her captive… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. Margaret Stenson: …and she was interned in, uh, Japan for the rest of the war. Then she was returned after the war. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Margaret Stenson: So, they, they, they actually had a battle here. Elsie Hornbacher: When I was in Japan, uh, someone in Hokkaido told me that they believed that Japan had invaded half of the United States. Margaret Stenson: Hm. Elsie Hornbacher: Well, [laughter] if one considers these limited… Margaret Stenson: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: …islands – I probably shouldn’t say limited, but, uh, in size… Margaret Stenson: Yeah. Elsie Hornbacher: …and so forth, it actually does cover half of the United States, so maybe there was a bit of truth in that. Margaret Stenson: Well, they… Elsie Hornbacher: A [mite 43:46] of truth… Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. Elsie Hornbacher: …let’s say. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. They, [throat clearing] they did. They did have, uh, some skirmishes… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …in this area, but in the Aleutian area, that’s where, that’s where the, uh, uh, attack really took place as far as Alaska. Elsie Hornbacher: I know I, I wrote to someone in Adak, uh, at that time… Margaret Stenson: Yes. Adak’s the [inaudible 44:08]. Elsie Hornbacher: …and I remember, I remember reading the article in Reader’s Digest. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Elsie Hornbacher: I was told to read it. Margaret Stenson: Yes. Uh-huh. And, and all during, all during the war, this, uh, area along the Aleutians was, uh, was protected and, and, uh. Elsie Hornbacher: I stopped on Adak t-, at Adak too… Margaret Stenson: Yeah. Uh-huh. Elsie Hornbacher: ...one time when we came back from Japan. Margaret Stenson: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I had forgotten about Adak. But, uh, uh, actually though the thing that I think that, uh, down in Klawock, the thing that I remember the most about the war period was that, uh, our food – our fresh food was limited. Uh, the coast guard boats used to, uh, be in there. Uh, they didn’t, uh, they, they didn’t, uh, dock s-, so much at, uh, Klawock but at Craig. They were stationed at, at Craig. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, uh, all of our fresh fruits and meats and things like that went to the Coast Guard rather than, than to… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …be available for us. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So, we ate a lot of canned meat and down in Klawock, the farmer had, uh, cows and, uh, we had meat and milk. Uh, regular beef. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And lots of fish. Lots of fish. Wherever we lived in Alaska, we had l-, a lot of fish. Elsie Hornbacher: [45:38] Uh, did you find any adjustment when you came back to the lower 48? Margaret Stenson: Tsk, no. Uh, the o-, [laughter] the only adjustment I really ever had to make was driving a car… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, yes, [inaudible 45:51] up there. Right. Margaret Stenson: …because I lived, I lived without a car. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Um. Elsie Hornbacher: [45:56] Did it seem kinda good to get off those, uh, big bulky clothes you had to wear up there? Margaret Stenson: [laughter] Well, really and truly, tsk, um, I d-, I never did, uh, uh, wear, um, heavy, heavy clothes. I did have, uh, a parka… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …and the parka, uh, uh, was given to me. Uh, the, the traveling nurse, Mildred Keaton, had, uh, brought the parka down to Shishmaref from Kotzebue. It had belonged to an Eskimo that had died and she [laughter] – it was a sweet little thing, uh, made of, uh, ground squirrels and so – and she says, “We’re not gonna put that in the casket with him!” So, she brought it and that was the only parka I ever owned as far as a fur parka is concerned. And then, uh, I had – uh, I always wore shoes… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …uh, and, uh, then I had, uh, mukluks made, but they – uh, almost like, uh, like what we wear now days. Galoshes. Elsie Hornbacher: Like bedroom slippers. Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Galoshes! Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Yeah. Margaret Stenson: And I have a zipper in the front of it and, and it came up to my knees and all I did was, um, just wear my shoe in it. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: Stick my shoe in just like, uh, like I could in a big galosh. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: And, uh, the thing that you had to have was a hood, and we had – everybody, everybody, natives and everybody wear cover parkas. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: The – and then the – even the fur or the skin or your coat just doesn’t get soiled. You wear a cover parka and then the cover parka goes into the washing machine or into the – uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …to the – to be washed. And it’s made out of white denim and, uh, usually it has, uh – and it has a pocket in the front, a big pocket so you, you can put all kinds of things in it – in your pocket, and you don’t carry things in your hands. And then, uh, uh, it has a – uh, the important thing is the hood and the fur that goes around the face. My, my cover parka had, uh, polar bear skin on it. Polar s-, bear ruff for a… Elsie Hornbacher: [48:21] Did you have a polar bear rug by your bed, too? Margaret Stenson: No, but I had a black bear rug in my home. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, you had a black bear rug. Margaret Stenson: I had a black bear rug… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: …that came from the Kobuk River area. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: I, I said I’d never live again without a bear rug… Elsie Hornbacher: [laughter] Margaret Stenson: …in my house, but [laughter]… Elsie Hornbacher: [48:37] Down in Florida, you probably don’t have one now, do you? Margaret Stenson: …I d-, [laughter] I don’t need a bear rug anymore. Elsie Hornbacher: You appreciate… Margaret Stenson: Yes, well, I appreciate belonging to the WOLS group even though I was not in a military, uh, organization of the government. I was with the Alaska Native Service Schools, sometimes called the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and it was in the w-, within the Department of Interior. And, uh, uh, although during the war I was not in a war – a typical war zone, I still was i-, I always felt that we were in, in, uh, dangerous, uh, areas because we had no way of knowing what the Japanese, uh, people were going to do or what they intended to do, and I do know that the, the government schools out in the Aleutians and down in the, down in the, uh, um, southeastern Alaska were in, in, uh, what we considered in war zones. Elsie Hornbacher: N-, go ahead. Margaret Stenson: Uh, I, I didn’t tell about, uh, Mr. Ito, who was a Japanese man who lived in Kotzebue. He had a little, a little house, little shack, and so far as I know, he was – i-, I don’t know if he was married to this Eskimo girl or whether she just lived with him; anyway, when he – when, uh, Pearl Harbor came, uh, then the U.S. Marshal took him to, uh, uh, out to Nome and then he was sent to a, a concentration camp down in the Unites States, uh, lower states and I remember that Mr. Stenson and, uh, and the U.S. Commissioner and then it must have been the U.S. Marshal had to go to Mr. Ito’s house and they searched his house and, uh, with – in those – in – at that time, they were sure that the Japanese people who were up in Alaska in all of these different little villages had some connection with Japan and they, they didn’t know what they’d find, but my husband said that the only thing that he had in his cabin was just an ordinary radio. Nothing special. And he had just a, a, an ordinary gun, uh, such as all people in Alaska had. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Margaret Stenson: So that, um, tsk, but he was never returned as far as I, as I know, he never came back to Kotzebue. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. [51:42] Is there anything more, Pauline? Margaret Stenson: N-, uh, I think that’s it. Elsie Hornbacher: [51:45] You think that’s it? Well, thank… Margaret Stenson: Mm-hm. I think that’s it. Elsie Hornbacher: Well thank you very, very much. We have enjoyed this, uh, recording of your experiences in a-, Alaska. /ad