Interview of Margaret J. Hornickel on her service in the Army Nurse Corps during WWII Ruth Banonis: This is an interview with Margaret Hornickel, who was in Army Nurse Corps. [00:08] Margaret, can you tell us, um, something about the branch of service where you started with the army and so on? Margaret Hornickel: Yes. Uh, I reported to, um, uh, Camp Lee, which is now Fort Lee, Virginia, on, in August of ’42 at the chief nurse and, uh, was assigned to, uh, duty on [inaudible 00:38]. Uh, there was no orientation. One learned everything trial and error [inaudible 00:48]. Ruth Banonis: That’s getting... Margaret Hornickel: That, uh… Ruth Banonis: …thrust into it. Margaret Hornickel: And, um, a few months later the, uh, chief nurse requested, asked me if I’d be willing to do night supervision, uh, for the post for the hospital, which was a cantonment-type hospital at that time and had about a thousand patients; um, that I’m not too accurate about. Um, I said I would be willing to and, uh, and she would let me have 1 night off a week. At that time, the duty hours were 7 to 7. Ruth Banonis: Hm. Margaret Hornickel: [cough] Uh, what I learned on that, was in that experience was so valuable in light of what, uh, I was, uh, asked to do later that, uh, one cannot get from textbooks. Um, it gave me much cause to think about the personnel for whom I would later be responsible. Now, um, let me see now, in February at that time, the army had a system that, um, one could, uh, only be promoted if she were, uh, in the chief nurse’s office. No one mentioned that this chief nursing office program was preparation for future chief nurses. Ruth Banonis: I see. Margaret Hornickel: So [chuckle], uh, in February I was assigned to the chief nurse’s office and promoted to first lieutenant from the original rank of which all nurses as far as I know of entered the Army Nurse Corps regardless of education or professional background. [cough] During the time that I – up until September of ’43, uh, the – it was the usual custom to go to the commanding officer of the hospital, at which time was a very fine gentleman with an excellent sense of humor. And, uh, one morning we were discussing a new army regulation that had been sent and we were asked, we were – it was mentioned. No opinions were asked, but I volunteered one. [chuckle] Colonel [inaudible 04:34] turned to the chief nurse, both of whom were regular army people, and he said “Haven’t the Russians an Army Nurse Corps?” [laughter] That was the lesson I learned [laughter] just read the army regulations. Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: Never mind having an opinion. Ruth Banonis: Yes. [inaudible 05:04]. Margaret Hornickel: That’s the [inaudible 05:05] I wanted to tell you about. [chuckle] Ruth Banonis: Yes, very good. Margaret Hornickel: Uh… Ruth Banonis: If you get tired anytime, we can stop at any time. Margaret Hornickel: It’s my back. I squirm. That’s, that’s all. Ruth Banonis: [05:16] Are you more comfortable…? Margaret Hornickel: No. Ruth Banonis: …here or at home [inaudible 05:20]? Margaret Hornickel: Um, in, uh, September of ’43, orders came for me to be the chief nurse of a hospital that was then activating at, uh, Fort Jackson, North Carolina. I think it was in North Carolina, South Carolina, I forgot which. But anyhow, um, uh, I reported there and was to take 5, uh, nurses from the Third Service Command and, uh, we reported there to a new commanding officer, it was commanding officer of 74th General Hospital. Uh, nurses from time to time were sent and, uh, to join that unit and, uh, in the meantime we all did, um, um, staff nursing in the hospital there. Now they had 2 hospitals at that time, and while I was assigned to the chief nurse’s office, I had, uh, I supervised a certain number of, um, buildings and wards and reported to the chief nurse. One of the activities that was assigned to me was to teach the WAC, um, they’re called ward assistants, uh, at the other hospital. With the daylight saving they came [inaudible 07:36] the middle of the night to take me with the ambulance over to the other hospital. And I don’t whether so many of these girls were, uh, had been on night duty or what, but I never had seen such unmilitary or for that matter student behavior in anything while I gave the course in Red Cross nursing for which I had qualified myself in the, uh, in the, um, in November or December or October or November of the, of ’41… Ruth Banonis: Hm. Margaret Hornickel: …when it was given in Atlantic City where I was teaching. So, um, the, uh, that was a different experience, and, and, because I would think WAC officers would have expected them to manage their own students… Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: … a little better than that. And it may be the old militaristic attitude that we were, we inherited from Florence Nightingale [chuckle] and had been accustomed to in schools of nursing, so. At any rate, uh, everybody seemed to be happy, at least I was when it was over [chuckle] and so, uh… Ruth Banonis: [09:13:] Well, then, then did they go on? Margaret Hornickel: We left, uh, Fort Jackson. While we were there we were required, some of us, we only had a small number of people to go through the, uh, course where we learned to dodge the bullets [chuckle] and... Ruth Banonis: The gas chamber. Margaret Hornickel: No, although we had the gas chamber drills. Oh yes. That, that was routine stuff. And, uh, the, um, uh, interesting message I got one evening in the Officers’ Club was “You’ll be delighted to hear the message we received today at the office.” That was that women would not be required to go through that live ammunition combat anymore. The day we had gone through the better half of the uh, the dead bullets, whatever they’re called. [chuckle] Ruth Banonis: The blanks. Margaret Hornickel: I was glad that I got off of that… Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: …with only 1 tear in, in, uh, my combat pants, on the knee of the combat pants. I didn’t make it through the wires with that one, but, um. Then we had orders to leave Fort Jackson. In the meantime, the colonel had, our commanding officer had put in requests for promotions and, uh, there were several, um, nurses whom I thought deserved to be first lieutenants, uh, and I recommended them. It was suggested that I make some recommendations. So we had an interesting experience while we were sitting waiting for the train to leave to wherever we were going. [chuckle] Uh, one of our, uh, office-, officers, um, that’s the administration people, um, drove up and I had been promoted to captain and I wanted to know who the first lieutenants were. And how these captain’s bars all appeared, I don’t know. I didn’t have any and I don’t know that the other girls had any first lieutenant, but I don’t know yet how they came about, but we had them. So we got off at what turned out to be Camp Kilmer in New Jersey. Ruth Banonis: Mm-hm. Margaret Hornickel: [inaudible 12:43] have lived in New Jersey in the winter have any idea of the experience to come into a camp where they had 1000 nurses accumulated. This was the buildup for the, what was turning out to be the, uh, uh, the invasion the following June, you know. Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: Well, uh, regular nurses’ quarters were no longer available and we had left these luxurious ones at Camp, Camp, um, at Fort Jackson and were put in enlisted men’s barracks. When I saw the open-work bathroom, my mouth shut and hoped we would not have too much to – we had no difficulties. I never saw women – and this turned out to be not only 100 nurses, but 5 Red Cross women, 3 dieticians, and 2 physical therapists, so it was 110 women I was responsible for [chuckle] including myself, so. Ruth Banonis: That’s a lot. Margaret Hornickel: Well, that we went through all necessary ship [inaudible 14:29] blues and were issued, uh, olive drab and, um, didn’t, uh, didn’t make any telephone calls. Now, fortunately I was familiar with that part of New Jersey so when we had to the opportunity to go by bus over to New York, I rounded up a few of the girls that I knew didn’t know anything about New York or, or had ever been on a subway train. And it was quite interesting to see their experience when we went. I think we went down to the, uh, Russian, one of the Russian ends to, uh, not from patriotism but [laughter] [inaudible 15:22] so, um, uh, we enjoyed that. And there we picked up the bus. I figured that’s what we could do from where the bus had left us and then I knew how to get back to the bus, got everybody back safely. And the night we left to – for, um, what turned to be to board the Queen Mary. The rumors were we were going to be on the Queen Elizabeth, but her stack, one of her stacks had, had a mishap with one of those typical winter storms of the North Atlantic and, um, so we went on the Queen Mary; however, we stood up on the ferry boat from Hoboken and I had been across there so many times I couldn’t believe that the ferry captain didn’t know how to get to the west bank [laughter] from the east bank [inaudible 16:38]. Ruth Banonis: [inaudible 16:37]. Margaret Hornickel: I couldn’t believe it, and I only founded out later that the – it was so well organized the feeding of troops coming, uh, what I call down the river, I mean from north of New York from ferry’s post and these troops coming from the other side into New York. There’s – someplace along the way there had been a delay, but the Red Cross was there, I don’t know what hour in the morning it turned out to be, with their, with their, uh, um, doughnuts and coffee and they welcomed us. Yes. Then we got put on the Queen Mary and our colonel was standing at the head of the beautiful stairway and asking us where we were. [chuckle] Ruth Banonis: He asked you where you were. Margaret Hornickel: Where were we. I says “Well, we’ve had the tour on the ferry boat [chuckle] since we left.” He couldn’t believe it. He couldn’t believe it either. He’s a New, he was a New Yorker, so. [chuckle] That was interesting. Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: And, uh, the frequent boat drills. The Queen Mary left around noon, well, on the 1st of March and we were [inaudible 18:26] sometime the 4th or early the 5th morning. Ruth Banonis: Very quick crossing. Margaret Hornickel: Very quick crossing. It swerved every 17 minutes. Ruth Banonis: Hm. Margaret Hornickel: It was jammed with soldiers. You could not put your foot down without looking first. Now fortunately while we were at Kilmer I had a birthday and my father had mailed me a 5-pound box of hard candy which followed me from Fort Jackson to Kilmer, and I just thought to myself, what am I going to do with this? So I gave it out to the girls and had them put it in their muskets ‘cause we had to carry all our stuff with us, you know, so. Um, uh, it came in handy because we had 2 meals a day on the Queen Mary. You can’t feed all those people 3 times a day and nobody needed to eat that [inaudible 19:36] either. So, uh, the, uh, there were 3 general hospitals abroad. And, um, the, uh, ear, nose, and throat chief from our, our unit was asked to operate on an American soldier who had, uh, a, uh, mastoid. Now remember all these things came before the miracle drugs. We did have sulfonamide, but, uh, now people don’t know what you’re talking about when they’re talking about mastoid. [chuckle] Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: So it makes you feel really old and, uh, um, we landed, were taken across all this cold [inaudible 20:37]. The Red Cross were right where we needed them when we got off. The soldiers were down below. The nurses were out in the weather on the top… Ruth Banonis: Hm. Margaret Hornickel: …in these bunks that they took us [inaudible 20:59] and, uh, to [inaudible 21:04] I think. And then we got on a train and were carried down to a place called Hoylake. Hoylake is on the Wirral, on the Wirral, W-i-r-a-l-l, and, um, it’s off the Irish Sea, beautiful little town, and the Royal Liverpool Golf Course is there. We were assigned to various, uh, homes, private homes, which the English were paid according to the rank and personnel they had. And when I was taken to the family that received me, the woman said, she and her husband were sitting in front of the fireplace [inaudible 22:19] heat She said “We have no accommodations for a batman.” And I said “Madam, whatever her name was, Mrs., uh, you, American officers do not have batmen.” Ruth Banonis: [chuckle] Odd that she should, would expect it. [inaudible 22:47]. Margaret Hornickel: This lady, this lady’s son I bet he didn’t know he was lucky. He was serving out in some hot place, India or something like that. Ruth Banonis: Yes [inaudible 22:57]. Margaret Hornickel: I had his room and it was a refrigerator. I had to be moved from it later, I was so blue with the cold. Ruth Banonis: Hm. Margaret Hornickel: Then another problem that occurred while we were billeted there – oh, and the English women were marvelous to us. First of all, we were fed in a great big hall. In the army, you’re fed wherever you’re going or if you’re leaving. In between, you know, that’s something else. [laughter] Ruth Banonis: Or on your own. Margaret Hornickel: Yeah, but, uh. Ruth Banonis: C-rations. Margaret Hornickel: Now finally, um, oh, one of the other experiences I had while we were waiting. When they don’t know what else to do, they had classes [chuckle] and inspections. Well, they didn’t inspect, but they did have quite a few drills and, um, uh, this went on at all the posts even, um, there. But finally we were moved, but I had an experience that I rather enjoyed. Chief nurses and certain other officers had to report for, uh, I don’t really know what the purpose of the course was to tell you the truth, but, um, I met some very interesting nurses on that course and some other officers. But, um, one of the most interesting ones I met was this young girl who had come off the, uh, was one of those who had come off the, uh, and rescued from [inaudible 24:53] or Bataan in the, in the submarine. She had been sent back to the States to recruit army nurses when she recovered from that experience they had and, uh, she requested overseas duty; young, healthy girl. And they had more little things that they picked on us for and called them demerits. And I told them myself “Suppose I get a demerit [inaudible 25:32] gonna laugh.” [chuckle] You know, some of these things are, are ridiculous. Ruth Banonis: [25:45] Well, what, what would the eventual punishment be if you got demerits [inaudible 25:48]? Margaret Hornickel: It would be on your record. I guess [inaudible 25:51]. Ruth Banonis: Slow down promotions. Margaret Hornickel: Well, I don’t know. I [inaudible 25:55] slowdown of promotions. Ruth Banonis: [inaudible 25:58]. Margaret Hornickel: It became automatic. Ruth Banonis: You were captain at this point. Margaret Hornickel: Yes. Well, that’s, that’s fine, you see, so. And the war came, then the, then… Ruth Banonis: [inaudible 26:08] out of the regiment certainly. Margaret Hornickel: Well, no, that was more [inaudible 26:11] to scare us because… Ruth Banonis: Yes, exactly. Margaret Hornickel: …um, we had to get along as best we can, but that was, that’s one of the most interesting. Incidentally, during a bombing at that particular experience at that school I was at, um, one of the famous British army places down, I don’t know, we were somewhere in the south of England, it was south of Liverpool anyhow. I had had an interesting experience at the Liverpool Royal Hospital at Liverpool with the dame there also, but I can’t go on with that, I don’t have enough time. Ruth Banonis: Oh, I think so. We have, we have… Margaret Hornickel: I, I, I want to get on with when, when we got to, um… Ruth Banonis: We have, I, I think we have at least 10 minutes. The tape does go up to 45 minutes. Margaret Hornickel: Well, anyhow, um. Ruth Banonis: But I, I don’t want to tire you too much. Margaret Hornickel: Well, it doesn’t tire me. I’m just trying to sort out what to tell you, um. Ruth Banonis: [27:32] Did you go over with the troops on D-Day or [inaudible 27:35]? Margaret Hornickel: No. No, we didn’t. That’s what I want to get to. We were assigned eventually, it turned out to be in May, to a hospital that turned out to be a, it was a cantonment-type hospital. This means that it was built for the purpose of only from – on an estate that Lady, I know her name but, uh, um, the neighbors told us she wasn’t really a Lady. The real Lady had died and this was – I don’t know whether she was had been the nanny or what, but, uh, what her prestige was, but she was not smart enough to get along properly with our colonel and she came out at the wrong end of things as far as that’s concerned because he was very tactful and what he and, and, uh, the, uh, head of our Red Cross unit were able to get from their friends over in Bristol, England. We were stationed southeast of – southwest of Bristol. Bristol is the port. And another big hospital, another general hospital was northwest of Bristol, but that was placed in an English hospital, a children’s hospital, which was a proper hospital arrangement. And when I say cantonment type, I mean these temporary buildings so that there’s, they only hold maybe 36 patients in a ward and then you have to go out in the hallway and you go to the next floor and you go in the hallway or when you come to the end of that line you go down the next line and it’s a whole string of them that way. You do it all yourself [inaudible 29:55] hospital. So anyhow, everything was a great deal of walking and, but the one of the most immediate things that happened to us after we took over from this station hospital had been in there and they left us with patients who had been brought to them from the African, uh, fighting and, um, we were able to take over for them. We had, um, all sorts of instructions about how things should be set up which we followed. And, uh, um, the day that we had what we called a dry run in which our, um, our ambulances and the ambulances of the services in, um, had been enlisted by our, our colonel from the Bristol authorities were having the dry run, it turned out to be a real run. Yes. It was right after D-Day. Now that area, that far away from France, um, had, I don’t remember whether it was called the Z zone or the X zone, whichever it was, it was as far as you could get and it depended on whether or not after the invasion took place, uh, a patient could be returned to service within a certain amount of time or whether he had to be shipped home. So we received and we shipped patients in, in both areas. And one of the first things that happened was I got a request to send, a request [inaudible 32:26] [chuckle] as you know, 3 lists of 17 different nurse’s names, 3 lists, and they would select 1 set of them. This depleted us by that many, and so what we would do is when you’re assigning them for duty is to stretch the nurses between the cantonments; [chuckle] instead of doing 1, she does 2; instead of doing 2, she does 3; for night duty she did maybe 6. You see what I mean? Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: We still had 7 to 7 duty, but try to have 2 days, 2 hours off a day if they could manage. And that was all planned in advance so that they would know if they were entitled to it. And when they would have an afternoon off, you must get rest. Ruth Banonis: Oh yes. [inaudible 33:46]. Margaret Hornickel: But [inaudible 33:47] you know who, everybody was on duty Christmas Day. Ruth Banonis: Mm-hm. [inaudible 33:53]. Margaret Hornickel: Everybody was on duty even though you gave them a half a day off. We didn’t want to be anyplace else because that Christmas we had just had the Battle of the Bulge and instead of having 1000 patients we had 1300. Now we had already expanded the hospital by building outside of the wards that were there and put down a patio and they put a tent over it. Where I got the bedside tables for it was through our social contact with the with, um, Air Force, Air Force supply group of some kind that just received bombs and [inaudible 34:46] [chuckle] and these bomb racks made very fine bedside tables because all we got for to put in these under these tents and you know how much it rains [inaudible 35:00]. Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: And we had no [inaudible 35:04] sanitation, so you have the, have the ambulatory patients. [chuckle] The way, the way the patients were sorted was absolutely miraculous the way that it was done. Now the first day that I say we had that dry run, the patients were getting carried on these hand, uh, carriers, hand stretchers. These were wounded or the sick were very sick and, um, they, um, the spaces that were available for the ambulance to back into were very far apart. Well, without saying one word, before the next time we had to have 298 patients we got on each train, before we got any of those for the second time, the colonel had new parking places arranged. We got that from the English. That’s how tactful he was. Whereas the, uh, previous people had told us they couldn’t get anything from them, so. Um, I don’t know if they… Ruth Banonis: Hm. Margaret Hornickel: Um, we rehabilitated, the, the rehabilitation of patients started very early and was taught all the way down to our enlisted men. It would be very interesting for me as I made rounds to stop and listen to a little bit of a ward meeting standing there and say “If you can only move your eyelids, move them.” [laughter] It sounded so cute. Yes, so, so, the rehabilitation idea – you see these young men were healthy, but one of the things that was very depressing for me for Christmas was that some of our wounded, some of our wounded had been in the States for Thanksgiving and before Christmas they had, during Christmas week they were wounded. This was not such an easy war when you get [inaudible 38:03]. Ruth Banonis: [inaudible 38:03]. Margaret Hornickel: Yes. If you take it seriously. So it practically ruined Christmas for me since, ever since. I, because I’m, I’m [inaudible 38:17] after the colonel, making rounds. He’s visiting everybody for Christmas and I’m trying to keep up with him, and another fellow says to me, I said “I don’t have anything to give out.” The Red Cross had been around already and he wanted to know what I was giving out. [chuckle] He says “Couldn’t you give me a kiss?” And I said “[inaudible 38:42]. [chuckle] You can ask the colonel for a kiss.” [chuckle] Ruth Banonis: Well, I don’t see why not. Margaret Hornickel: My, my point is, I know, but I’ve never forgotten my [inaudible 38:54]. [chuckle] But anyhow those are little things that just bother me and I haven’t told most people about it. And, uh, um, but the, the emotion and the care the nurses gave them were so proud to, um, when, um, we had, um, patients who were very, very sick and all I had to say to someone “Well, I need special nurses for so and so. Will you cover these other wards while I ask her?” Nobody ever objected or felt, let me know that they felt badly or put upon and it was a, a great privilege to work with people who were devoted and that’s why we didn’t seem to mind. And our, our enlisted men were superb, they really were. I had a few nurses I had a little few conferences with and pointed out to them, but they weren’t going to be threatened in their professional lives if they taught somebody how to do something. I mean this was my idea, that isn’t what I said to them. I said “You can’t do it all yourself.” You can’t get any work out of people if they’re sick so [inaudible 40:46]. Well, then as the war wound down then they had the idea that those units that were overseas in France – now there were some units that had been in Africa and went to Italy and then went to France, now they had been overseas a long time and they were entitled to return early and that’s what we call going home by the numbers. [chuckle] Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: You know what I’m talking about. Yes. Ruth Banonis: Yes [inaudible 41:26]. Margaret Hornickel: So, um, now – but one of the things I had learned about on the night duty was that our – I’d tell the girls I’d rather – the army regulations said that you shall do 1 month of night duty, it doesn’t say that you have to do it all in 1 month. And with this weather and this hours, I think it advisable that you split and I’ll keep, of course, very careful records and so nobody got too off. And, um, that seemed to work out very well except with 1 nurse and that’s a different story. And, uh, um, when we got to France we were moved from 1 place to the other and the colonel said as soon as we get all the paint done on this place, they will move us. Well, he was right. I had the opportunity to go to the Riviera so since I – we were again furnishing [inaudible 42:49] with nearby gear, uh, wings and could get the, um, transportation. I went for a week. It took a little longer than a week to get back, well, it was one thing and another [inaudible 43:13]. When I went back, our hospital had been moved. Ruth Banonis: Oh [inaudible 43:18]. Margaret Hornickel: [inaudible 43:19] last to find out. Ruth Banonis: [43:23] Did you have trouble tracking them down? Margaret Hornickel: Yeah. A little trouble [inaudible 43:27]. Ruth Banonis: At that point… Margaret Hornickel: Yes. Ruth Banonis: …things were a little confused. Margaret Hornickel: Pardon? Ruth Banonis: At that point, you know, the move over into France, things were probably confused… Margaret Hornickel: Well… Ruth Banonis: …here and there. Margaret Hornickel: Yes, because you had no [inaudible 43:41] you just heard of these places. And, um, I, I didn’t get around to recollecting after the colonel said I was about to send the military police for you. [laughter] First where, where was I on the ferryboat. Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: [laughter] Ruth Banonis: Well, 2 instances out of what was it 40 years [inaudible 44:08]. Margaret Hornickel: No, 41. Ruth Banonis: 41. Margaret Hornickel: Well, um, then, uh, sometime in, in, in February of, uh, of ’45 I was promoted. The promotions were on again so several of the officers were promoted and I was promoted to major and now that’s about, that’s roughly, uh, the experiences, um, that I had. I, um… Ruth Banonis: I think that covers it well, um. Margaret Hornickel: Now… Ruth Banonis: [44:56] Wh-, when you went into France, when was that? How much after D-Day? Margaret Hornickel: It would have been… Ruth Banonis: Roughly. Margaret Hornickel: You want to know about my first night in Paris? Ruth Banonis: Oh, I would love to hear about it. Margaret Hornickel: On the Third-Class Carriage, Carriage, that’s the one with no accommodations and the seats are awful short too. I, I’d been transferred and transferred and transferred as individuals on the numbers. And it turned out, I turned out to be the chief nurse and then after that as the major there. [chuckle] [inaudible 45:40]. We weren’t taking care of any patients. We’re killing time. We’re – so as it turns out when we finally went on with the south it was finally moving an assembled number of people, um, on the 1st, no, no, no. I’m, I’m wrong. I’m leaving France. Uh, um, you’re asking about we went down – French 4th of July is June 14th. Ruth Banonis: July 14th. Margaret Hornickel: July 14th. Ruth Banonis: That’s Bastille Day. Margaret Hornickel: Yes, well by that time we were in [inaudible 46:29]. Ruth Banonis: You were already there. Margaret Hornickel: Yes, [inaudible 46:31], yes. Ruth Banonis: [46:33] Would you say in July? Margaret Hornickel: And that’s [inaudible 46:37] noise was at 12 o’clock at night. The people in their sabots. Is that how you – sabots or their wooden shoes on the, on the cobblestones. They start celebrating at midnight. Of course, that was their first, first free one… Ruth Banonis: Yes. Margaret Hornickel: …from… Ruth Banonis: Celebrating more than just the day [inaudible 47:08]. Margaret Hornickel: Yes, so, and the, uh, French countryside, of course, we [inaudible 47:22] parts of Pennsylvania and, I mean, parts that we saw. Ruth Banonis: This concludes the interview with Margaret Hornickel, Army Nurse Corps in the WWII. /mlc