Interview of Betty Van Kirk on her eleven months of service in the American Red Cross in the Pacific Theater during World War II Betty Van Kirk: Uh, very little. Very little. Interviewer: [0:04] They were just sent over to New Guinea? Betty Van Kirk: They – we were to – we were s-, we were train-, well we were all trained a certain amount. I don’t know exactly what training the, the, uh, those women had. The – those of us – I think we all had a certain am-, we were all sent back to Washington, DC… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and I can't remember whether it was 2 or 3 weeks. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: That was a great plum as far as I was concerned because I hadn't been East for several years, and so I was able to spend weekends in Swarthmore and see old friends before I left… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and see my family, and, and that was great. But, uh, we – everybody – all Red Cross were sent to Washington for this, this training, which was done at, um, oh, what's the university there, eh… Interviewer: [0:50] American University? Betty Van Kirk: American University. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, uh, then we were sh-, we were shipped out from there. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I was, uh, eh, I was shipped out with a group of casuals. [laughter] That’s what they said. And we, we crossed the country on a troop train… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and so forth. And came back to California, all of which pleased me very much too. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And we were stationed at st-, Camp Stoneman… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …for about a week before we went o-, out on our Liberty Ship… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …to New Guinea. Interviewer: [1:24] What did you feel about the relationships that you developed, and I'm sure that you [inaudible 1:28]? Betty Van Kirk: They were very close and very dear. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And right now, now, uh, 2 weeks ago, um, I was with a friend of mine that was also in New Guinea. Actually, we were not good friends in New Guinea. We were mutu-, we had a mutual friend. But neverth-, uh, she’s one of my dearest friends now. She lives in Monterey. And, um, I called another – when I was in Los Angeles during this little trip that I had, I phoned a, eh, friend that been one of my best friends in, in the whole, whole experience. She was with me in New Guinea, and then we were sent up to Manila, and the war ended, and we were stationed there together. And I haven't seen her for about 3 years, oh 3 years, um, 15 years… Interviewer: Hm. Betty Van Kirk: …I guess, 15 years, and, uh, I haven't tal-, I've, I've had word indirectly, but I haven't seen her. But I called her, and she, uh, we, we didn’t get a – have a very satisfactory telephone conversation because it was at the airport, and I waiting for the limousine. And so she called me the next Sunday after I got home, and we talked for half an hour. But, uh, uh, it's, it's strange how many of my friends, uh, are, are really very, very dear friends now. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: This, I think this is true of, of all services. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I know it's true of all services. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. You mentioned some of the restrictions, uh, that you experienced overseas. [2:58] Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Was there regimentation and were you allowed to date and [inaudible 3:04]? Betty Van Kirk: Oh, yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Well, as I say, eh, in my experience, a-, as long as I was at the hospital in New Guinea, uh, I was treated just like the nurses. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And we were allowed to – I don’t think there any – there were no limits. Uh, we h-, I guess we had to be home by midnight. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But we could go out every night as far as that was concerned [of 3:26] people, and any girl could’ve. Eh, I mean there were [chuckle] a shortage of females, so – but, uh, in, eh, in time, the women got tired of it, and they mostly settled down to one escort… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …that they could depend on. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, if it, uh, if he was moved out, they were plenty of them that didn’t care to date at all. They just got weary of the whole bit. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Of course, they were physically weary because of the innervating climate… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …in New Guinea… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and the same thing in the Philippines. But, um, uh, it was, it was an amazing experience for m-, most of us that hadn't had all that attention… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …in growing up. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And so that was fun too. Interviewer: [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: But, uh, most of those and contrary to the, the experiences with women, uh, the experiences with men, very little. They, they almost invariably fell apart. Almo-, unless they actually married. Uh, eh, maybe even over there or… Interviewer: [4:35] You mean if they met someone… Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Interviewer: …who they dated? Betty Van Kirk: They dated them and they, they – when they came back to the United States, it was as though it had – it was just a dream. Interviewer: [4:44] Oh, really? [Inaudible 4:45]? Betty Van Kirk: Oh, eh, eh, that’s almost always the case. It's, it's a dream that people, eh, think about, but eh, eh, it almost never materialized into anything further. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Once in a blue moon, they, they’ll see one of these people, but mostly not. It's, it – and I think this is – I think the men would say the same thing. The men h-, their, their close relationships are with the men that they knew over there. I mean I, I'm quite sure that – I never thought about it before, but I think that was really quite universal. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. [5:20] So men pretty much… Betty Van Kirk: Went back to, eh, eh, they went – they, eh, everybody went back to their, their social, uh, life that they'd had before. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: With a new angle on it I guess, but it, um, the, the men went back and married the girls or went back to their wives. M-, of course many of them were married when we knew them over there. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, but this, um, over there, it was, it was – everybo-, it was an entirely different setup. They – people talked about their home lives. They – you knew about their wives and their children and, and all the rest of it. Some of the men, of course, were very faithful to their wives. Some were less so. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But, uh, they, they almost all talked about them. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And that was very important and, um, the girls became very good listeners. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. [6:16] Did you find that to be a norm, that the women went out with the men to listen to them or? Betty Van Kirk: Well, yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I – I think so. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I mean, uh, of course, they expressed themselves too. I mean it wasn’t that they were – but, but, um, eh, eh, we all knew pretty much what the, the lives of these men were. And, and, uh, some of them changed rather drastically, but mostly they didn’t. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I think most of them just went right back as though nothing had really happened. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: By and large. At least of my age group. I was, I was, uh, what 34 when I went over, which was within, a, a year. I think they didn’t take any Red Cross theoretically that were over 35. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: They took them, but f-, age 25 to 35. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: There were exceptions, but, um, uh, I, I've always thought that the, the older ones adjusted better when they came home. This I think this has been true of, of all the wars. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: The older ones are more confirmed. They, they h-, they know more who they are when they go into the service, and they know who they are when they come home… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …whereas the young ones are just sort of torn… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …different directions. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. That’s true. [7:39] So can you describe an average day for you while you were in the hospital? Betty Van Kirk: Well the hospitals, uh, they, they were interesting. But the time I got there, it, eh, everything was all set up. I actually landed Easter Monday in New Guinea, and they were already shipping people up to the Philippines you see. Leyte had been captured, and so New Guinea was, was, uh, being dismembered. Hollandia was being dismembered really by the time I got there. But I was replacing a, a Red Cross girl from – we were, eh, uh, as I say, we were casuals is the expression. When you don’t go as a hospital, you go just as a single person to be assigned to replace somebody. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I was replacing a Red Cross girl from Omaha, who had such bad prickly heat that they, they had to send her back, and she ended up in Paris and was thrilled to pieces. But she, [chuckle] she loved it in New Guinea, but they simply couldn’t control her, her prickly heat. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, so I, I took her place, and, uh, uh, the hospital was established. The, the buildings were long barracks buildings. The, the – where the nurses were, there were sides up be-, up to the top of the beds, and then, uh, eh, eh, some kind of beaver board. I don’t know, pl-, uh, whatever it was. And then, uh, it was a screening from there up to the top and then tin roofs. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And then we slept, of course, under – we had beds, which was great. Really the beds were perfectly alright, and they were hospital beds that they were using at that time, and this was a general hospital. It was one of the big hospitals. It was the University of, of Pittsburgh Unit. I d-, I always thought that was one reason they sent me because I had gone in leaving my families address as Pennsylvania, you see… Interviewer: Hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and Swarthmore, so I think they picked me out of the hat and sent me to the, eh, to the University of Pittsburgh Unit. Interviewer: Hm. Betty Van Kirk: The doctors and most of the original nurses were from the University of Pittsburgh… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …Hospital. Interviewer: [9:53] So they thought you'd be at home, huh? Betty Van Kirk: Yes. [laughter] I guess so. I, I don’t know. I mean they w-, why, why give 1 person rather than another person? They didn’t have time to give it any deep thought. But, um, [tsk] uh, eh, we, we, uh, we had nets. Of course, we slept under mosquito nets. And of course, we were terrified of the Anopheles mosquito because of the, of, uh, get, eh, Dengue fever or Dengue came from another mosquito. Malaria was what… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …came from the Anopheles. And, eh, I think the Dengue fever was, was, eh, mostly up in the Philippines when we got up there. But we were given, um, we took Atabrine. We turned as yellow as could be, [laughter] and that yellow took quite a while for that to, to come out of our skins. But, uh, it was on the table. Atabrine and, uh, vitamins were on the, on the mess table, and… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …people just took them regularly as could be. Uh, we, we had, eh, uh, our toilets and, and wash, eh, rooms and so forth were separate buildings. There was just one for the, for the nurses. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I guess there were about, uh, 2 – maybe there 2 of these long barracks buildings or maybe there were 4. I'm, I'm, I'm not sure about that. The, the, the roof was the same, the tin roof and the, the cement floor was just the same as the wards, but the wards didn’t have the sides. The sides were because we were women. We were being protected a bit more. The, the wards just simply were all screened in all the way down to the concrete floor.. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …without these, these… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …sides that we had. Interviewer: You mentioned about the fear of getting malaria or some other dreaded disease. [11:43] What were the other fears or, um, trepidations that you might have had going over as you were? Did you fly… Betty Van Kirk: [Well 11:51]... Interviewer: …or did you take a boat over? Betty Van Kirk: No, we w-, we went over on a Liberty ship. Interviewer: Hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, uh, we were terribly crowded. We w-, eh, it happened that with our – there were Red Cross. There were, there were 2 women going back, uh, who had, had been back in the United States on emergency leave. One of them was a Red Cross and one was a nurse. And those 2 women, eh, had nothing to do with each other, excepting at meal time, and it happened that they were – we sat at the same table, and th-, there they would – they just, eh, enjoyed saying to each other and loudly enough so everybody was in on it, and of course, we were all gaga about the fact that they'd been there, you know, because it was a totally unknown world to the rest of us. They were enlightening us, and they were enlightening us, eh, as, as cruelly as they could. I, I, I don’t know. They, they – both of those women were just sort of nuts, I, I really do think. Uh, they – the, the worse they, they could, the worse they could make the picture, eh, the more they s-, obviously enjoyed doing it for us. No matter what it was. And… Interviewer: [13:06] What – can you give an example of what they said to you? Betty Van Kirk: Well, I, uh, no. The funny part is I just remember that it was so, it was so awful. And they, they were not close friends. They, as I say, they never saw each other excepting, uh, uh, when – at meals, and then they would just, eh, they would sort of egg each other on trying to outdo each other about how, how terrible everything was over there. I r-, I really can't remember anything specific at this point. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But, um, it really was very funny. And, eh, eh, then finally, of course it took us how long, almost 3 weeks I guess to get to, to Hollandia. We went down – we went past – one morning at 6:00 we were all out on deck to, to see Guadalcanal. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: It was just a, a streak on the horizon. We weren't close to the Solomon Islands, but we, we at least, uh, and the [Ellis 14:03] Islands. We saw [Ellis 14:04] Islands too. And went on down to Finschhafen where we stayed out in the – you see there were no piers or anything and the – so the ships had to be out in the harbor and then small boats would come out. And, um, one, uh, high-ranking nurse was taken off there. I don’t, uh, very few people were taken off, and – but we were there. That looked beautiful, all these beautiful palm trees and everything. That was the first thing that we were close to. And then we went from there on up to Hollandia. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, [tsk] again, s-, uh, some people were taken off, and some were kept on. I don’t know where the ship went from there… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …but, uh, we were being dropped off various places. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Um, one thing that was interesting for me was that, that I – at, uh, at the, the, uh, Sunday service, Protestant service, uh, that was the only time on the ship that, that we had any chance to talk to any of the GIs because we were all considered, um, officers. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: We had that status. Interviewer: [15:19] [Inaudible 15:19]? Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And the, uh, there weren't any WACs as I remember and the w-, there were, uh, there were, uh, there was a USO Oklahoma Troop, the whole troop. That was the biggest [inaudible 15:34] that had ever been sent… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …overseas… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and that was on the ship with us. So there were all those USO girls, and there were nurses, and there were Red Cross. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, um, [tsk] we had to stay in the officer’s area, and, eh, down below decks, they, eh, eh, uh, actually they weren't kept below decks. I mean they slept below decks, but they had a, an area where they could be outdoors. But there were the, the GIs, and, uh, a lot of those had been home on leave. They’d been over for 3 years at that point, and were b-, had, had what was it 60 days I think at home… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …30 days or 60 days, and they were being shipped back, so of course, they were, they were just, eh, very low in their minds. This was terribly hard on those, those men to back. But I remember this one sergeant who turned out to be from Pennsylvania. In fact, he had gone to the – to, uh, [tsk] uh, Penn State, and w-, I met him, and we talked at the, at the, uh, after the, the, uh, the, the, uh, Sunday service, and he was able to tell me what my APO was. You see, we, we knew our orders. We had orders, but it was just APO whatever the, the number was. And that meant nothing to, to me. Interviewer: [17:01] And APO is what? Your…? Betty Van Kirk: W-, uh, that’s your post office box. Interviewer: Oh, oh. Uh-huh. Betty Van Kirk: You see, I was being sent APO, say APO 360… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …whatever, and – but I didn’t know where APO 360 was excepting I knew I was going to the Pacific. Eh, that was obvious. But, eh, he said oh, well that’s Hollandia you know. He knew all this. He was, he – and he was very kind, I mean. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I would say well, now tell me about it. Tell me. And I told him about these 2 women who just couldn’t think of enough awful things to tell us, and, uh, so he – I said just tell me nice things. And he would say well, the sunsets are the most beautiful in the world, and it's very beautiful, and, uh, you, you, you know… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …there are lots of lovely things about it. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And so he would tell me these nice things when I'd see him only occasionally, you see. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But, um, uh, the most – the officers that were going over were just as green as we were. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: They, they were, they were the ones that we were thrown with, the men as well as the women officers, but, but, the – I think there was 1 major, the, the nurse that, that got off at, uh, Finschhafen was a major I believe. But anyway, uh, we didn’t know what to expect. Interviewer: Mm-hm. [18:21] Were you frightened at all of…? Betty Van Kirk: No. Interviewer: [18:24] What was going on in your mind as you were on that ship going over? Betty Van Kirk: Not, not really. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I mean, o-, of course, the, uh, Tokyo Rose and all this business. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: There was a certain amount of scuttlebutt about that, but, um, we weren't in a convoy. We were set alone. Those Liberty ships at that point were just, eh, they – that was not a dangerous area that we were going to. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, no, I, I, I can't remember being very fearful. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: O-, of course, I've always traveled, and this was not traveling under the best of circumstances. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I d-… Interviewer: [19:02] So you had had quite a bit of an experience before you went over? You said you were 34? Is that correct? Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I'd gone to school in France… Interviewer: Hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …when I was a – when I was in high school. My mother had taken my br-, brother and myself over, and, uh, then of course, after I moved to California, I had gone back and forth across the country. I really covered a great deal of the United States. I hadn't been, I hadn't been out of the country, uh, excepting that year in Europe... Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …at that time, but I had traveled a lot around the United States. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. [19:38] Well it must take a lot of courage? Do you see yourself that way? Betty Van Kirk: No, not really. Interviewer: [19:42] As a courageous person? No? Betty Van Kirk: No, uh, no. I really don’t. Um, I, as I say, I think that the – all the women that went into the Red Cross because they had to make a decision. We made the decision ourselves that we wanted to go overseas. Now this was not true of the nurses nor the WACs. They were sent overseas. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: They s-, they made the decision to sign up, but they, they really had no control. I've talked to many of them who wanted to go overseas but didn’t wangle it, you know. But then others, I'm sure didn’t want to go overseas and were just simply shipped out. Once they went into the service, they, they did what they were told to do. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Whereas from the very beginning, the Red Cross, you see, we were a different, we were a different group in that we, we made our decisions because when we signed up, in fact, I would have gone in a month or two earlier if I hadn't held out for going overseas. But when I signed up for the Red Cross, they – it was for overseas. They couldn’t use me here in the United States. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I wouldn't accept assignment because I knew if I once accepted it for, for the United States that it would be very difficult to get overseas, and I had already made up my mind. So many of my friends m-, male friends had gone out through San Francisco to the East, eh, eh, to, you know, New Guinea and whatnot, and I – that’s where I wanted to go. So I was delighted… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …that I was going that way. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Because that’s where they'd, they'd gone, and I, I wanted to have the same type of experience that they were having. And, uh, I was not going – I said well, any, any girls can be Red Cross in the United States. They don’t, eh, they, they don’t, they can have families or anything else and, uh, and there's no reason to keep them from doing it. But I'm – I have no dependents, and I'm the sort that should go overseas. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: So I'd made that decision. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And all the other girls – the Red Cross girls had likewise made the same decision. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: So we were, we were always sort of, uh, maybe a little bolder… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …than, than the nurses and the, and the WACs. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: We were just a different type. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: A little more independent. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And we stayed independent. [chuckle] Interviewer: Mm-hm. [22:08] Were you ever married? Betty Van Kirk: Yes, I had been married before that, and I was divorced at the, at the time. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: So that was the reason that, that, uh – and I – I've never had any children, so there… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …there was no reason. And my, my brother, there wasn’t any question about my brother being around to take care of my mother… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …if it were necessary. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. [22:31] So you never remarried? Um. Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Interviewer: [Inaudible 22:34]. Betty Van Kirk: I, I did remarry. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I remarried my husband [chuckle] [inaudible 22:37], but that – it didn’t work the second time. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: It rarely does. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But that was after the war was all over. Interviewer: Mm-hm. [22:44] So do you attribute any of that to the war or… Betty Van Kirk: No. Interviewer: …is that very separate? Betty Van Kirk: No. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: That’s entirely separate. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: It, it had nothing… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …to do with the war. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. [22:53] So what, what do you classify as your biggest challenge while you were overseas? [Inaudible 22:59]. Betty Van Kirk: [laughter] Trying to remember the – what the G-, the GIs faces if not their names. That – I had a funny experience. Interviewer: [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: Well, you see there were so few of us that they could spot us… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …you know? Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I was Betty… Interviewer: [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: …and, and hundreds of them knew me. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And they all were dressed alike, and honestly they, they really didn’t look that different. So that was sort of w-, m-, my nightmare, that, that, uh, one of them would come up and speak to me and that I wouldn't know who – wouldn't place him. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: N-, n-, as I say, not particularly remember their names. They didn’t really expect that unless we knew them very well. But, uh, to at least remember where I'd seen him and all the rest of it. And finally a very funny thing did happen on that vein, and this was after the, after the war had ended. It was a [inaudible 23:52] at our camp outside of Manila when were keeping the canteen going. And we would serve coffee and donuts, oh starting around 2:00 in the afternoon, [tsk] and, uh, ‘til about I think 7:00 or so in the evening. And, uh, uh, this par-, but we'd come, the, uh, this Doris and I would come in the mor-, morning and sort of, you know, get the – everything in order and whatnot, and the, the, the tables – there were tables, uh, there were – that were originally for the coffee drinkers, but, um, the, uh, the, the boys would come and play cards or whatnot, just to – they had nothing to do. It was just a place to sit to get out their, out of their, uh, tents. And, uh, [tsk] this particular time in the morning, this, this, uh, GI in fatigues and with a 2 days’ growth of beard, uh, sort of called over to me and said, uh, Red Cross, do you cook your donuts in Crisco? Well that didn’t seem like a very strange question to anybody excepting somebody that had worked for many years for Proctor & Gamble, and who was working for Proctor & Gamble at the time that she went into the Red Cross, and of course, Crisco is one of their products. Interviewer: Hm. Betty Van Kirk: In fact, it was the product that originally started me with Proctor & Gamble. And, uh, so I, I thought oh, my stars, you know that’s a very leading question, and I looked at that guy, and nothing came, nothing came, and I thought this is it, this is the great – this is what I've always dreaded because it was obviously somebody that knew me… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …you see. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I, I, I – now I don’t remember whether he finally relented or, or whether it finally came to me, but I, I think maybe he had to tell me that he, of course, was a Proctor & Gamble salesman from… Interviewer: Hm. Betty Van Kirk: …from Stockton. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Eh, Jack Noon. And the thing was I felt better later, uh, because he had cornered the other Red Cross girl and said what's that, what's that Red Cross girl’s name. He w-, he didn’t believe his eyes. He didn’t really think that, that I was Betty Van Kirk. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, the whole point was that he had been one of Patton’s men. He'd been a sergeant in Europe. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, of course, had been gone for a long time, oh, which I knew very well, and I didn’t – but then I left the United States. He didn’t know I'd gone into the Red Cross. He hadn't gotten any communiques of – to indicate that I'd gone into the Red Cross, and I didn’t know that he had been shipped with all these other high-point men through the canal. They didn’t even bring them to the United States. They just took them from Europe to Manila. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And when they got them there, of course by that time, uh, the war was – has – had ended really. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: So they were, they were – first they were based, uh, at, um, on Bataan, temporarily on Bataan, and then the ones that had very high points, as he did because he’d been in so many battles and whatnot with Patton, were brought to our camp because we were – we had the highest point men that were waiting for transportation back to the United States, so… Interviewer: [27:20] So that meant that they were the next to be shipped out? Betty Van Kirk: Theoretically. Yes, that’s right. Interviewer: [27:24] [Inaudible 27:24] high points. Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Yes. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: That’s right. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: They w-, they were shipped out depending on their points. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And so when they got to our camp, they were just sitting there waiting for the n-, for the ships to take them back, and so that’s how he happened to be there. But, uh, we, we really had some very nice times after that. Of course, he shaved after that. [laughter] And then he, he had some other clothes that didn’t look quite that, you know… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …not the old fatigues. So he sort of spruced up. And we went into Manila, eh, 2 or 3 times… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …uh, together and went to the Red Cross Club. Of course, I, uh, there were only certain places we were allowed to go and it was only because we were very old friends that I was allowed to go with him because, uh, I was only supposed to date officers because I was theoretically an officer. They were very rigid. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: MacArthur was very fussy about that… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …that officers… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …the nurses could only date officers… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …theoretically. I mean there were, there were times when – but if, if it was a relative or a very old friend… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …why of course that was a different thing. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: So Jack and I had some, some fun times together, but that was my nightmare come true [laughter] as far as recognizing him. Interviewer: That’s true. I can imagine. [28:42] Do you have any other stories? Any funny stories? Anything that’s happened to you – that happened to you when you were there? Betty Van Kirk: Well, um, I was telling – I told twice recently, and I think this is sort of a funny story because nobody else is gonna tell this to you. But it happened that I took one of these tiny little turtles to New Guinea. They used to sell them down at Fisherman’s Wharf… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and some of them were painted… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and some weren't. Well we always knew that the painted ones couldn’t live very long because the paint would, would kill them. But I was given by one of these s-, men that was shipping out or something, and I didn’t buy it myself, I know, but somebody had this brainstorm. Oh, Betty should have a little turtle. She should have a pet. So I was given one of these little turtles, and I'd had it here for about a year, here in this apartment, and, uh, when, when I decided to go overseas, I rented my apartment furnished to a very nice older couple, and Mrs. [Greer 29:43] said oh, yes, she would keep Bob the Turtle. She’d be glad to. Well then I – when we came back and were at Stoneman, I came to see her, of course, and, and to see everything was going well, and she informed me that Bob the Turtle had been, uh, had gotten out of his, of his, uh, I had s-, a sort of a [tsk] eh, well, eh, it was, um, a glass bowl… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …that he was in. And he’d gotten out of it a couple of times. Well I was horrified because he – in the time I'd had him before, he’d never gotten out, and I knew that if he got out, then th-, w-, it was anybody‘s guess how soon he’d be stepped on or, you know, get under the radiator or something. So I felt very badly about it, and I told my roommate back at Stoneman about this. I said, you know, he’d never gotten out before. I don’t know what she’s doing differently from the way I did it, but I, I know his days are numbered. And she s-, she thought a little while, and then she said, Betty, why don’t you take him with us? And, uh, I thought about it, and I thought well, you know, maybe that’s what I should do. And of course, there was no big thing about it. I had the little paper box that he had – I'd brought him home from Fisherman’s Wharf in and which they shipped them all over the United States in at that point. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Now it's illegal. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I'm sure they… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …they're, they're long since gone because, of course, they do die. It's, it's a, it's dreadful. But anyway, of course, mine had eaten. That was the whole point. He would eat. A lot of them wouldn't eat in captivity. But mine would eat meat. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And so he was doing very well. So I thought about it, and I thought well, why not. So I c-, the next time I came over, I picked up Bob the Turtle, and I just said well, we've just got to keep this as a secret, eh, this to my roommate. Well, that’s fine, you know, we'd keep it as a secret. And I, uh, I felt that on the ship it was very important because I was rooming with all these girls that didn’t know at all r-, the USO and whatnot girls. There were – oh, I think there were 18 of us in our cabin, and we were, we were 3 decks. The b-, bunks were 3 decks. And I happened to be on the, the bottom, and, eh, everything was dark, and I was in a very dark corner, and I just simply put Bob the Turtle in the – my helmet, in my metal helmet and hooked it over the head of the bed against the wall. [tsk] He couldn’t get out because of the curve of the helmet. And I put a little bit of water in the bottom of it. And, uh, eh, nobody would pay any attention to the fact my helmet was hooked over the head of my bed in, in the dark corner. And so that – there he was and th-, and I watched him, and I, you know, sneaked a little bit of meat from the – our t-, dinner table and, and brought it down to him and took care of him perfectly well. And then finally, I did, when, uh, we were in the, in the – getting in the South Pacific and it was so warm, I towards the end, I smuggled him upstairs. I'd bring him up in my pocket, and then there were just a very few people that were allowed to know that I had Bob the Turtle. I'd, I'd have him out, you know, and we'd make a little cluster of people, and nobody would see that this little thing was out in the sunshine in the light. You know, I was concerned about him being in the dark all the time. So the, uh, and finally in the end, the only person that got upset about it was one of the girls that didn’t know about it until the last few days, and she was just insulted that I hadn't let her in on it. Interviewer: [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: But the whole idea was that there would be people that might look upon it as a reptile and, you know, it would get loose, and they'd get nightmares and all the rest. That was the reason I kept it a secret. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But it was never a secret once I got to, to New Guinea. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I would take him, uh, uh, people a-, they had their own pets at the hospital. They had, uh, monkeys and dogs mostly. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And the nurses had them. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And my little, my little turtle was almost nothing compared to that. But the boys used to like to have me bring him on, on the wards because then I'd leave him and then they’d know I'd come back later in the day to pick him up. I never left him any place overnight. I always took him back. And mostly people were afraid he’d be stolen, but of course… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and he was safe in my quarters. But anyway that was Bob the Turtle, and he – I brought him back to the United States, and he finally traveled with me again and he died in Springfield, Missouri. I had him for about 4 years. [laughter] Interviewer: [34:21] That long? Betty Van Kirk: Mm-hm. Interviewer: [34:22] Really? [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: Yeah. Interviewer: [34:23] I used to have those little turtles when I was younger. Betty Van Kirk: Yeah. Interviewer: They didn’t last more than a week. [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: Oh, well. This one would eat. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And he got jungle rot. That was the only thing that – we were all afraid of jungle rot. Interviewer: [34:34] W-, what was that, like what…? Betty Van Kirk: Well that was just a, eh, eh, with us it was a, a skin, you know, eh, eh, it was sort of a, eh, eh, a skin disease. And we were – we – you'd get it between your toes or anything. It was, it was sort of like athletes foot or whatnot. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But w-, I called it jungle rot. Actually, a l-, all along hi neck, he, he got a – sort of a white mold. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And – in New Guinea. And I would wipe it off with, with a Kleenex. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And – but if I could get raw meat for him instead of the cooked meat, it would go away. It w-, it was [chuckle] sort of like scurvy or something. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, so I would try. I'd go to no end of trouble to try to get raw meat. It wasn’t easy to do because most of our meat came, uh, canned, you see… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …from, from Australia. But once in a while, we'd get raw meat, and I'd get it for him. But, uh, it was because he ate so well I'm sure that he lived as long as he did, and when he finally died, he died from lying on his back and not being able to turn himself over. Th-, turtles die when, eh, they can't stand lying on their backs. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Their hearts stop. And, uh, he’d turned himself over many, many, many times, but I think he’d gotten sort of, uh, [tsk] well, it wasn’t exactly old age because turtles can live to be very old, but it, it – he, he was just w-, got in a weakened condition and obviously that time he couldn’t turn himself over. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: So that, that’s how poor Bob the Turtle died. Interviewer: [laughter] Betty Van Kirk: But he was a well-traveled turtle. Interviewer: [laughter] I see. Um, I'm concerned pretty much about what you did, uh, about your responsibilities. You’ve mentioned that before. [36:20] Um, what did you enjoy most about your travels or most about the work that you did overseas? Betty Van Kirk: [sigh] Well I don’t really know. I, uh, uh, the, the GIs of course… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: … and, and the, the women that I was, was with. Uh, that I thought the women were a very fine group. I enjoyed the nurses. Uh, I never – didn’t feel that I was doing anything that anybody couldn’t do. I mean it was, it was nothing really. Interviewer: [36:56] What did you do specifically in the hospital? Betty Van Kirk: Well we'd go on the wards. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, uh, eh, of course we would take, uh, any anything, you know toothpaste, cigarettes, uh, anything that the, that the boys needed, we'd take baskets around… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and provide them with that. Uh, of course most of the, most of the boys had money and could buy the things they wanted, but if they didn’t for any reason, why we would pro-… …by plane… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …from, uh, Japan. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And uh, I, I don’t know whether some were, eh, I'm, I, I guess they were all from Japan. The ones I knew the most about were anyway. And this was very interesting. W-, what my duty, of course the nurses were, they were putting them through their first elementary, uh, physicals and whatnot, and they were busy with the doctors doing that, but the Red Cross, they, eh, they used to handle – I handled the next-of-kin messages. And this was a matter of putting the 2 together, getting the messages and the, and the, the men together. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: [tsk] And, uh, I, uh, there's a picture of me with, with all this file and business, but then meeting those men that had been prisoners of war was really a-, all the Red Cross around Manila were just dying to meet those men, so that, that was a, a break that I got in on that… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …particular experience. And, uh, one man that I, that I got to know quite well, uh, had been, um, he was a major, and he had been taken on, um, uh, he'd been taking on Corregidor… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and he, he told various stories about Corregidor that were very interesting, and he said how fortunate he’d been not to have been on Bataan because the men on Bataan, oh so many of them died, you know, in that death march and so forth. But he, he was, uh, um, eh, the, uh, Corregidor was taken, and they were just taken off. They didn’t have to go through that awful marching business that the other men did. But th-, they were, um, they w-, those men – it was very interesting to, to see them and then later to see – unfortunately, things didn’t work out with that man. He, um, he of course was so thrilled about – they all were so thrilled that they were on their way home and all the rest of it, and, and they, they told lots of funny stories and whatnot, and of course, they looked thin and pale and whatnot, but even in the – they, they got home in a hurry. The, the high point men sat around, but the, the prisoners of war were brought home in short order. So he was only there at the camp for about a week I guess. And this particular man, uh, but he had told me about his family and anything he could do for me anytime, I really hadn't done anything for him, you know, [laughter] there, but he felt that I had, and, uh, I – anything I could – that he could do for me. Well he did. It was funny because, uh, when we came back, I came back on a troop ship a-, and it was that Christmas when everybody was g-, coming home, and they – when we got several days out of San Francisco, they announced we would not go to San Francisco, the harbor was full of ships, they were taking us down to San Pedro… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …in Los Angeles… Interviewer: Hm. Betty Van Kirk: …and that’s where we were going to, we were going to land. Well of course, that floored me because I just saw myself getting right off my ship and, and going right home, and here I was going to have to somehow or other get from Los Angeles to San Francisco. And this was interesting how, how – what had happened to me even as – even though I've considered myself quite independent and even though I hadn't been in so long. I was in a little bit less than a year… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …because I, I actually didn’t go in until after Christmas and I guess ’45, that has to be, and th-, w-, it was for ’45 wasn’t it? Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And then, uh, this was December of ’45. So from January… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …’til December, it w-, it was closer to 11 months… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …that I was in. And, uh, we, um, we, we landed in, eh, down there in Southern California, and then they, they came, the Red Cross came and said well, I've – we've got your birth, you know, your – you'll go right on up on the, on the, uh, uh, Starlight to San Francisco, and I said oh, well I can't go. I'm not gonna go anyplace without my footlocker. See I had my hand luggage and that was all. And this was something that had – that was a very important thing. It wasn’t that, that I had such valuable things in that footlocker, but then what I did have was in there, and everybody had their horror stories about being separated from their footlockers and… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …never seeing their footlockers again, so I just said I, I'm not going until I get my footlocker. Well the footlocker was not gonna be unloaded until later on in the day, and this was very disconcerting… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …to the Red Cross. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And – but they, they were nice enough not to really force me, and so th-, I called my major – I don’t remember his last name now – who lived down in [inaudible 42:45] one of those towns. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: It wasn’t Long Beach, but it wasn’t that far from, from, eh, it might have been Santa Ana. I don’t know where it was. And anyway, I g-, I got a hold of him, and, uh, he and his wife came over the next morning and picked me up, and we went out and got my footlocker, and then they took me to their home so that I'd see their house, and we had, uh, luncheon or dinner, whatever, and then they took me to the train that night. So it was a 24 – I went up 24 hours later than I would’ve otherwise. But to make the effort to hold out and say no, I'm not going with the crowd… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …after just 11 months of being in the service, it, it w-, I was floored at how much effort it took out of me to, to do something that I would have done so easily a year before because I was completely used to negotiating things myself… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But it, it took a great deal, which shows what regimentation does for you… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …in a short order. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And I had not been regimented like most these people. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: The, the change in, in myself w-, it just – I could hardly believe it. But later, the sad part was when I s-, well when I saw that major and, of course, his, his very attractive wife and so forth, and oh, they had a beautiful car, which of course she’d, uh, been driving very little because gas was hard to get. So it was just a beautiful car. And he had on his, his Eisenhower jacket. He looked so nice, and, of course, they – he’d put on weight. He just looked like an entirely different man… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …uh, from the way he looked a-, a-, at the camp outside of Manila when he had on fatigues and was thin and pale and all the rest of it. [tsk] And, uh, I, e-, everything – his – both of his sons had lived. They were both in the, in the navy. They'd all 3 survived, which was really quite remarkable. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And everything just seemed so great. And do you know he showed up 2 or 3 times after that here in San Francisco what with coming up to the Presidio and whatnot. I think he went back into the service. He had not been in the service before. He’d been a, he’d been a – as most of those men – had been, uh, reserve officers. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But he, he didn’t go back to his job. He’d been an engineer for the City of Los Angeles I believe. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: Uh, he didn’t go back to that. He, he went back into the army for a while. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And he absolutely went to pot. Interviewer: [45:23] Oh, really? Betty Van Kirk: He became a total alcohol. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And, and, uh, his wife finally had to divorce him. It was just terribly sad. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But, eh… Interviewer: [45:33] But that’s pretty characteristic, though, isn't it? Betty Van Kirk: It, it's very characteristic. Interviewer: Yeah. Betty Van Kirk: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Betty Van Kirk: Vietnam and all the rest of it. Interviewer: Yeah, exactly. Betty Van Kirk: And yet he was an older man. This goes against my previous statement that mostly the older men could take it better than the younger ones… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …because, uh, they had these grown sons. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: But I felt badly about that. Interviewer: Well you mentioned the regimentation and the change, uh, that you saw after 11 months. [45:56] Did you recognize any other changes, um, in yourself after the 11 months overseas? Betty Van Kirk: I don’t – [sigh] well I was very yellow from the Atabrine. My mother was shocked when she finally saw me, [chuckle] but that, that, uh, th-, that isn't what you mean at all. Uh, I don’t know. Interviewer: [45:23] You don’t know? Betty Van Kirk: I didn’t think s-, uh, as I say, I was mature… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …at that point. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: A-, and I don’t th-, I don’t know whether it made any changes. I'll have to ask some of my other friends. Interviewer: Re-, w-, well, yeah. Betty Van Kirk: What – how they [inaudible 45:35]. Interviewer: [45:35] Did you, did you see any change in relationships with, with your women friends or male friends? Did you view, uh, civilian women differently than those who went overseas or? Betty Van Kirk: I don’t think so. Interviewer: [46:49] You don’t think so? Betty Van Kirk: No. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: I had never had any, [throat clearing] any [throat clearing] – excuse me – [coughing] any experience with the military before… Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: …having been raised as a Quaker and in a college town and so forth, and so that, eh, that w-, that has been a change to me. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: And it's still – I still am amazed as when I go over to Letterman or over to the Presidio or whatnot. Uh, eh, we go have luncheons and whatnot. I – when I joined the Women’s Overseas Service League and I was one of – I was actually the first World War II, uh, member of the San Francisco Unit of the, of the Women’s Overseas Service League. Interviewer: Mm-hm. Betty Van Kirk: There were a couple of other women that joined in very short order. I mean, uh, we were processed, eh, more or less the same time, but I, uh, one – and one of those was a WAC and the other one was a nurse. But I, I really was the very first one to join because I was so charmed by the World War I member, [Elizabeth Sperry 47:50], who, who got in touch with me and invited me to the meeting and so forth. And I said, uh, well, I'll join f-… /lo