Interview of Betty Lieby on her experiences during and after World War II while serving in the Red Cross and working as a civilian recruiter for the U.S. Army Elsie Hornbacher: [Inaudible 00:04] Elsie Hornbacher is recording for the Women’s Overseas Service League. Uh, Betty Lieby is being interviewed on her experience overseas. My address is 2114 Meadow Lane Drive, Lansing, Michigan, and the telephone number, the area code is 517, and the number is 321-2453. I can be located at this number, um, at any time. This is for the Lansing unit of the Women’s Overseas Service League. The date is November 21, 1985. Betty’s address is 6091 Brookhaven Lane, #33. That’s apartment #33. In East Lansing, Michigan. The zip is 485… Betty Lieby: [No 1:15]…48823. Elsie Hornbacher: 48823. Her telephone number with the area code 517, uh, 351-2518. Go ahead Betty. [1:35] First of all, um, Betty, um, uh, generally, where were you born? Betty Lieby: Uh, I was born in Saint Claire, Michigan. Elsie Hornbacher: [1:48] And, uh, what were your parents’ names? Betty Lieby: Uh… Elsie Hornbacher: The maiden name of your mother and then her, uh, married name. Betty Lieby: Uh, mother’s maiden name was Louise Simmons and my father’s name was Benjamin Isom, I-S-O-M. Uh, he was born in Atlanta and my mother was born in Bay City, and I left, they, I was born in Saint Claire but lived in Detroit for my 23 years prior to going overseas with the Red Cross. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [2:17] You said Atlanta, Atlanta… Betty Lieby: Georgia. Elsie Hornbacher: Georgia. I see. Uh, them, um, uh, well, I guess y-, you can go ahead with your experiences overseas, uh, uh, [2:29] roughly what gave you the idea to g-, go overseas? Betty Lieby: Uh, my job, uh, I was a secretary for Lt. Randolph M. Smith and then was promoted to, um, I was in charge of personnel for the tool and equipment division of the office chief of ordinance in Detroit. I was 23. I had a secretary who was 25. We discussed travel a great deal, and she advised me one day that Red Cross, uh, was, would be interviewing people and she wanted to go, uh, and of course I, I did too. I had a super job, but, uh, this was so exciting. Uh, they did say that on a rare occasion, they would pass an age waiver. Uh, you were supposed to have two years of college or business experience equivalent to that to be acceptable. Well, I certainly had the business experience. Elsie Hornbacher: [3:33] This was in the Detroit area? Betty Lieby: In the Detroit area, uh-huh. So we went in, and, uh, they kept calling me back. Poor Anna was not called back. She [chuckle], she wasn’t, uh, accepted and I, I said nothing to the colonel. I said nothing to my mother. I never dreamed they would take me, uh, uh, because of my age. I… Elsie Hornbacher: [3:57] How old did you have to be? Betty Lieby: Twenty-five. Elsie Hornbacher: Twenty-five. Betty Lieby: And I was 23. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: I got a letter on March 16 of 1945 that said that I had been accepted, that, uh, I would beginning, would be, uh, uh, sent to Washington for two weeks’ training. Elsie Hornbacher: 1945, the war is almost over. Betty Lieby: Yes, that’s right. And, uh, for two weeks’ training at the American University, uh, so on April 16, 1945, that’s where I went. And, um, to the [chuckle] uh, we sold the house, the colonel was angry, everything was sad there. I had a lot to do in one month. Elsie Hornbacher: You sold [what 4:39] house. Betty Lieby: Uh, the house that mother and I had. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Betty Lieby: And she went to, to Saint Charles to live with her sister. And, um, so we were in Washington for two weeks at the American University. It was, it was lovely. I met a lot of nice gals, and, uh, then 12 of us were sent to Langley Field for extension training and eight of us were, were, were recalled the very next day of the 12, and off we went to the New York, uh, port of embarkation in Brooklyn. We were there a couple of nights, and they gave us one free night. We went in to Times Square and went into Jack Dempsey’s, four of us. Jack Dempsey was in there and Gene Autry. We got their autographs, quite exciting. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. Betty Lieby: And we were in our Red Cross uniforms. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Then we were shipped out on the S.S. Argentina to England. That was, um, uh, in convoy and it took 14 days, zigging and zagging, uh, overseas, and went into London, and, uh, we were in London several days and received our assignment. And I went to Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent, that’s in the midlands of England in the pottery district. And I was there until the club closed. I had a, got a new club director while there, uh, [Marian Carol 6:08], who was a charming, wonderful friend, uh, and, um, uh, the Red Cross club director before was shipped back to the States. And, um, we used to take the boys on tours of the pottery district, uh, Wedgewood and, uh, Mytton and Spoad were closed at that time. Elsie Hornbacher: [6:30] Betty, roughly, uh, was that a big base? Betty Lieby: Uh, Stone was on the outskirts, it was an airbase, and… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …we had, we had, uh, the club was a very busy one. It was three floors. We served meals on the third floor. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Betty Lieby: We had band, uh, a band, uh, played there and the, um, the boys had to register their dates the night before and bring them in to dance, and it was a busy, busy club. We took, I took a tour, uh, some of the boys to Stratford on Avon on a tour and we always kept them busy. Elsie Hornbacher: [7:04] You roughly would have several hundred there at a time? Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I see. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes, absolutely, and it was, uh, it wa-, and then, uh, Stone, uh, was the closest base. Elsie Hornbacher: [7:14] You would have quite a personnel, uh… Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: …uh, in the club. Betty Lieby: We had, um, uh, the Red Cross director and two, uh, three Red Cross girls at the beginning, and then that, uh, was, uh, we were down to two Red Cross girls, but we did have quite a staff of British people. We had a lovely lady, Mrs. [Llewellyn we-, Leach 7:37], who, um, uh, obtained the hostesses, uh, for the dances, and, um, uh, we had a lot of the ladies up in the, uh, cafeteria area. They did have a habit of putting the gravy all over the whole dish when the boys went through the line, th-, and, uh, they complained about that, but, uh, we, uh, we, they, that’s the way they eat their food over there, and we… Elsie Hornbacher: [8:02] They didn’t make a little hole for it to go into, did they? Betty Lieby: No, they did not. They put the gravy over everything, so we asked’m to just, uh, uh, confine it to the potatoes. Um, we did give free donuts contrary to a lot of the, uh, the discussion by the boys that they had to pay for their donuts. We did give free donuts, and, uh, that seemed to be a policy, uh, that the commanding general of an area, uh, doled out. That was his, uh, idea of what should be, what should be sold and what should be paid for in the Red Cross. We were in the Red Cross, um, until of course the war ended, and, uh, uh, little by little, the, uh, the need for the Red Cross there was, uh, stopped, and so, uh, Marian and I closed the club. My club director and I. The other gal had been sent along. We went, they gave us time. We had an English Hillman, uh, little, uh, van, and they gave us about week to get back to London and so consequently we drove down through Wales and, uh, took in quite a lot of England on the way back. It was, uh, very nice. I should also say that while we were there, putting in 14 and 12 and 14 hours a day, we were given a leave, a three-day leave on occasion. Marian and I, how this was arranged, I can’t remember, but Marian and I went into, flew into Dublin, which was the Irish Free State. Marian had been in the theater, had acted, uh, a bit, and her desire was to attend the, uh, one of the, uh, plays at the, uh, see the Abbey players. They were, uh, uh, Plough and the Stars was there. Eileen Crowe was the leading lady. After the performance, which was, uh, very nice, we went behind the sta-, uh, behind the, um, stage and met Eileen Crowe and the other members of the cast, and Eileen Crowe invited us to tea the next day at the Royal Hibernian. It was very nice of her. On top of that, the few days we were there… Elsie Hornbacher: [10:13] You said the Royal Hibernan? Betty Lieby: Royal Hibernian Hotel. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, oh. A hotel. Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: [It’s a, uh, 10:18], the hotel there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Um, and it-, we had steak there at our meals, y’know, that was the Irish Free State. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, oh, yes. Betty Lieby: They didn’t, they had the really excellent food. We were invited to a big ball. Everyone in formal, and there we were in our Red Cross uniforms. They just treated us like we were royalty. I ended up on the stage drawing the tickets for the grand prize, and, uh, they w-, the Irish were very charming to us. That was an exciting experience there. But anyway, our, our leaves were, were interesting, and we took in as much of England on leaves as we could, and we visited other Red Cross girls in other areas, our friends. When we got back to, uh, England, then we were shipped o-, out to Paris. Uh, when we got into Paris, uh, it was, we weren’t quickly assigned. We had a little time there. And, uh, we were allowed a seven-day leave, uh, to Switzerland, and, uh, and actually we were in Paris, uh, on New Year’s Eve, which is… Elsie Hornbacher: [11:25] This is 1940…? Betty Lieby: 1945. Elsie Hornbacher: Forty-five. Betty Lieby: And in January… Elsie Hornbacher: Forty-six, mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …of, January 8 of 1946, we went into, um, Weisbaden, Germany, uh, for our definite assignment, and then were immediately sent out to, uh, Furth, Germany. They sent us in a mail truck, uh, driven by a Frenchman named George, and he could speak very little English, but, and we had quite a time. Wouldn’t you know the truck would break down on the outskirts of Dinkelsbuhl. People gathered around us like we were… Elsie Hornbacher: [12:01] Now Dinkelsbuhl is near what other big city? Frankfurt, or, uh… Betty Lieby: Oh, it’s, uh, no. It’s not… Elsie Hornbacher: M-, Munich, or, uh… Betty Lieby: It’s, uh, it’s about halfway between… Elsie Hornbacher: …Nuremburg… Betty Lieby: …Weisbaden and Furth. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. It’s… Betty Lieby: It’s one my favorite little cities there. Elsie Hornbacher: [Inaudible 12:14] Betty Lieby: Yes, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Yes. Betty Lieby: And, um, in fact I returned there, uh, but anyway, uh, the people gathered around as though we were most unusual people. There we were in our Red Cross uniforms and all I could say was manger, George, um, and, uh, oui, and we took our, uh, he had rations, so we had to eat them there. We were hungry. Along came a Jeep with two, um, GIs. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: They said, come along, we’ll take care of this. So we went into Dinkelsbuhl and there was a unit there, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: [12:49] That’s not too far from France, is it? Betty Lieby: No. Elsie Hornbacher: So your Germans would be able to understand a little French, wouldn’t they? Betty Lieby: Well, I don’t know that they did. I wasn’t aware of that. Um, uh, but the boys took care of, uh, George, and we never did see George until the, uh, they were towing the truck behind their convoy going into Furth. So we arrived, um, in a convoy again, um, going into Furth with all the, the boys, uh, veering out of their way somewhat to get us there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And our truck being towed with George in it. We got into Furth. It was a nice club. I was program, in program at that time. I had started as a staff assist-, assistant, and then, uh, was a program director. We got into, uh, Furth. We were, the 53rd base Quartermaster, uh, depot was closely affiliated with this, um, with Furth, so we ate with them in the Park Hotel, and because the war had ended, they still, as a matter of fact, though, when we went into Germany, they still had the wire cutters on the front of the Jeeps because every often, they’d string a, a rope, er, er, or a wire across the rode and decapitate someone. Elsie Hornbacher: [14:07] Did you experience that? Betty Lieby: No. No, of course we didn’t. Elsie Hornbacher: [14:09] And did you have to use them? Betty Lieby: Well, they were on the Jeeps but ultimately they were removed, but… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …um, there was no animosity shone except by the children, who would make faces or something when we’d go by. Elsie Hornbacher: [Inaudible 14:20] Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: [14:22] Did you hear them holler anything at you like, uh… Betty Lieby: No, they never [held 14:24]. Elsie Hornbacher: …American go home? Betty Lieby: No, none, none of that. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And, uh, uh, as they say, when we were, uh, in Furth, the club was, was a nice club and we did a lot of good there, but the war was over and the boys then, I think, were eager to get home, eager to, uh, travel and enjoy without all the nervousness of the war. Elsie Hornbacher: [14:45] The, uh, boys were, uh, free to do whatever they wanted to… Betty Lieby: Yes, they absolutely… Elsie Hornbacher: …except that they slept there. Betty Lieby: Yes, that’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: That’s right. And they would come into the club, uh, uh, there’s no doubt about that, but they weren’t interested in our activities that much. It was just the place to [maybe 14:58]… Elsie Hornbacher: I can understand that. Betty Lieby: Yes. They were eager… Elsie Hornbacher: They were more interested in meeting the girls in Germany. Betty Lieby: The girls…you bet. Elsie Hornbacher: And having a good time and whooping it up. Betty Lieby: That is absolutely true. Elsie Hornbacher: [15:06] Was their behavior fairly, uh, reasonable? Betty Lieby: Uh, I would say so. Uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Maybe a little more… Betty Lieby: …you always get some that, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: …drinking? Betty Lieby: …yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: You always get some that are a little out of hand… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …and of course that, uh, the ugly American started then, I’m sure. Elsie Hornbacher: Right. Betty Lieby: Uh, but, uh, 53rd Quartermaster, they, they needed civilian personnel to work for them, and, but they had a lot of work to do at the end of the war. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: A quartermaster base depot would. Uh, I had been in personnel and [Marian Carol 15:35], um, uh, had, well, to some extent too. So I was, uh, hired in and, uh, I was asked to, uh, to recruit. Travel and recruit, and of course I had to write to the, um, I had to write to the, uh, American Red Cross and be, uh, relieved of my duty. And… Elsie Hornbacher: [15:59] To travel and recruit…recruit… Betty Lieby: Uh, civilian personnel who were leaving, like nurses in, in [depots that were, uh…16:04] Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …could go home… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, yes. Betty Lieby: …or Red Cross, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …who were going home, or, uh, army s-, personnel. Elsie Hornbacher: And you had to replace them, is this it? Betty Lieby: I, I would hire them to work for 53rd Quartermaster… Elsie Hornbacher: In Germany. Betty Lieby: …in a civilian capacity. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And, uh, I received a letter from our adjutant general that I’d take with me and he said should any American civilian employee be available for transfer from your headquarters, Miss Isom is authorized to interview and accept for the commanding officer 53rd Quartermaster base depot those individuals who are willing to transfer here and whose services could be used by this depot. Elsie Hornbacher: [16:41] Oh, then you interviewed people who… Betty Lieby: Yes, I did. Elsie Hornbacher: …were in Germany. Betty Lieby: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Is this it? Betty Lieby: Not necessarily. No, I traveled… Elsie Hornbacher: Yeah, but in Europe, mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …in Europe. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Betty Lieby: I flew back to England on one occasion. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Betty Lieby: And I, uh, uh, went into, uh, Holland and, uh, uh, I was all over, uh, in my, my work. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: I was traveling constantly. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I can understand that. Betty Lieby: And, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: [17:03] Now we were, uh, the teachers were interviewed in the United States. Betty Lieby: Oh, were they? Elsie Hornbacher: And then we were shipped over… Betty Lieby: Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: …but I suppose there were a few that may have been like the wives of servicemen overseas. Betty Lieby: That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: They were interviewed there. Betty Lieby: Yes. Now some of the Red Cross girls wanted to stay in this capacity and, uh, um, one of them, well, several of them traveled with me when I… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …would go out on interview. Um, Connie [Gough 17:29] and I went back to Paris and Red Cross, they were very nice to us. We were allowed to stay in the Normandy Hotel in Paris. It was a Red Cross hotel, and we in our civilian uniforms, um, they were civilian officers’ uniforms is what they were, were allowed to stay there. Elsie Hornbacher: [17:47] Now the, the average civilian wouldn’t know what we mean by Red Cross hotel. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes, well, it was a billet. It was a place that, that housed Red Cross. And it was called the Normandy, and it was, uh, in Paris. Elsie Hornbacher: [17:59] And an occupation force would take over the major building… Betty Lieby: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: …and the buildings we need… Betty Lieby: We need for our, our personnel. Elsie Hornbacher: …and it’s a part of reparations for the Germans… Betty Lieby: Oh, abso-… Elsie Hornbacher: …to pay us. Betty Lieby: That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: So actually we had very nice places to live overseas. Betty Lieby: Oh, absolutely. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Absolutely. And, um, uh, it was a nice location. Nice, nice hotel. I, as I say, I had stayed there before in my Red Cross uniform. This time I was in civilian… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …uniform. And, um, uh, like I said, when I did write to the Red Cross, I received an honorable discharge in, uh, on January 29 of ’46. And from that point to the time that I sailed home on the George W. Goethals, um, I had served with the 53rd Quartermaster. During that time, Furth is just adjacent to Nuremberg. I was, uh, able to attend the, the war trials, which was the outstanding… Elsie Hornbacher: That would be… Betty Lieby: …part of it. Elsie Hornbacher: [19:00] What was the building like, uh, where the war trials were held? Betty Lieby: It was a very large building, and, uh, it was, uh, uh, not too far fr-, well, Nuremberg was practically flattened. It really was a flattened area. It stood out like a sore thumb. This was a very large building and how it had stayed, uh, intact. Elsie Hornbacher: [19:19] It was an older building, wasn’t it? Betty Lieby: Oh, yes, no, the building very large. Elsie Hornbacher: I, in fact, I was not impressed with it… Betty Lieby: No. Elsie Hornbacher: …when I saw it. Betty Lieby: It wasn’t. Elsie Hornbacher: I think the seats looked, uh, hard. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes, they were. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, or the cha-, what were they chairs or were they benches in there? Betty Lieby: There were benches, sort of. Elsie Hornbacher: Benches. Betty Lieby: We c-, came, when we were, uh, we made the entrance, they took everything away from us. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Everything. And we sat and they had headphones and you could dial in to the, uh, to the English language, and the Germans were the prosecutors when, when, I mean, the Russians were the prosecutors when I was there. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I see. Betty Lieby: But there was, uh, Goebbels and, uh, Goehring, and Hess and all of them sitting there. Elsie Hornbacher: [19:58] Were you allowed to take pictures in there? Betty Lieby: Not at all. We took everything away from – no pictures. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Betty Lieby: No pictures. And, uh, uh, no purse, no anything. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Uh, uh, Goehring… Elsie Hornbacher: [20:10] Could you take notes? Betty Lieby: …no. Had nothing. Goehring, uh, his uniform hung on him. He had lost so much weight. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And he was the one who took his life in prison. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, yes. Betty Lieby: Uh, we also, the MPs, uh, officers took us into the Grand Hotel where all of the, uh, uh, legal authorities were staying for the trial… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …and that was very interesting. Uh, there were, it was a very busy place. A lotta people there were involved in that trial. We also went to Berchtesgaden and, uh, went up to the eagle’s nest. That was quite a view up there. I have movies taken of me up there. There was nothing up there. Uh, one great big, uh, oak table, and I think every GI, officer, American personnel had their name on there somewhere. Mine’s on too. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Why b-, why be different? And we went through the apartment that was, uh, uh, on the way up to that in the mountain. It was, there was nothing in that. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And, uh, uh, I loved Berchtesgaden. It was magnificent. Elsie Hornbacher: I did too. I don’t think there’s… Betty Lieby: Loved it there. Elsie Hornbacher: …a more beautiful site in the world. Betty Lieby: No. I loved it. I stayed at the Berchtesgadener Hof, uh, when I was there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: That is still military. Because when I… Elsie Hornbacher: It still is? Betty Lieby: …yes, because I… Elsie Hornbacher: Even now in 1985? Betty Lieby: …yes. Well, I don’t know about ’85, but when I was there five or six years ago. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, in ’80? Betty Lieby: I retraced my steps and went there and thought I would stay. It was the, I loved that hotel. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: I have two, um, uh, napkins with a swastika on them from there. Elsie Hornbacher: [Inaudible 21:47] Betty Lieby: One of the napkins. Elsie Hornbacher: [21:47] Could you stay there? Betty Lieby: No. It was, uh, it was military. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: No, no way. I was civilian, of course. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Um, but my travels over there were most interesting and, uh, the people I met and the conditions and all, um, it was, um, an outstanding experience in my life to have been there. Um, I might have stayed longer even had my mother not been ill, and I got word and I had to leave. Um, [Marian Carol 22:20] stayed over much longer and she stayed and taught because of her theatrical experience, taught some of the German, uh, children. Elsie Hornbacher: Where? Betty Lieby: Yu-, young teens… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …uh, I can’t remember what city. Elsie Hornbacher: You don’t know the city? Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: I can’t remem-, I forgot the city. Isn’t that awful? Elsie Hornbacher: No, not at all. Betty Lieby: And she taught, uh, and she put on Abie’s Irish Rose… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh… Betty Lieby: …and they did a magnificent job of it, they said. Elsie Hornbacher: Wonderful. Betty Lieby: She did a good job. She was an outstanding person. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Um, we got into also, uh, ha-, had trips into Rome, down into Rome. Did a lot of traveling, uh, and of course in my capacity, uh, I certainly did. I spent, as I say, New Year’s Eve in Paris, Christmas in, uh, Switzerland, and, uh, Easter in Holland. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: That was quite an outst-, [chuckle] I couldn’t have asked for a better, uh, situation, especially with the war had, having been over. Elsie Hornbacher: [23:14] At that time were the Germans impoverished? Betty Lieby: Uh, no, w-, y-, when we would, uh, receive our rations, the little children would come around, want, uh, uh, cigarettes or whatever we could give them, candy, and we, we always did give them, uh, something, the little ones. Elsie Hornbacher: I understand after the war, they were eating out of garbage cans. Betty Lieby: S-, I never saw that. I never did. And of course, uh, in, uh, we stayed, I was, uh, a, had a lovely room on, in the bon-, on the Bahnhofstrasse in a, um, house. It was sort of a house, um, and a German family, uh, took care of us. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: They were very, uh, lovely to us. They certainly weren’t impoverished and the people that we were dealing with, we took care of, I guess, because I never saw that. I really did not see that except for the children begging when we would go to the… Elsie Hornbacher: [24:07] This would vary in parts of Germany, wouldn’t it? Betty Lieby: I would certainly think so. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. I have friends that were in, uh, uh, East Berlin. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: And, uh, they did get to the west, but, uh, from what I gather, it was pretty rough. Betty Lieby: It was rough. Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: I, I’m sure that, uh, uh, and I talked with some of the, uh, older people there, and they, there was nothing they could do at the end. It was just, uh, doomsville for them. They felt it. They could see it coming. He, he was, uh, way out of line at the end. They, they, they had nothing to, they knew that he had gone just entirely too far with the whole thing. Elsie Hornbacher: I understand that, uh, uh, they did not particularly support Hitler on an individual basis. Betty Lieby: They did not. Elsie Hornbacher: If they felt like doing something, they did it. Now, I believe the Americans actually were willing to give their life, uh, for our country. But the Germans, I understand, did not behave that way. Betty Lieby: No, they did not. I went to, uh, one of the, uh, trips I made was to Dachau, uh, and that was an awful thing to see there and of course there… Elsie Hornbacher: [25:17] Now you saw this in what year? Forty-six? Betty Lieby: In ’46, so you know that when I walked into… Elsie Hornbacher: I saw…in fifty, uh, three or fifty-four. Betty Lieby: And when I walked into the room, it would knock you over with the, the stench. Elsie Hornbacher: Odor. You still smell it. Betty Lieby: And they, and the blood stains on the wall… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …where they had piled bodies. It was a, it was a, appalling. Elsie Hornbacher: I came home and was sick to my stomach… Betty Lieby: Well, you could be. Elsie Hornbacher: …after being there for a day. Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: You could be. And that was in ’46, so you can imagine. Elsie Hornbacher: And I was there in ’53 or four. Betty Lieby: I passed a camp where they had prisoners and there were, uh, the SS. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Cream of the crop in the, in the camp, and they looked pretty desolate in there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: They were by the fence and looking out, and, uh, I’m sure they all were very, feeling very poorly at the time, and I’m sure they didn’t all, uh, want to, uh, follow him at, to the end. I, as you say, they had their own opinions. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And, uh, that was the way it was. It’s, it’s a shame that it had to, so many lives were lost. But, um, I came, then I came back, um, through, uh, Bremerhaven and came back on a liberty ship. It was a bride ship, actually, uh, the, they had all the French brides and all the brides on the top and the Red Cross were down in the hold and the others. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And it was the roughest crossing. Two of us ate in the dining room. Two of us out of that whole ship. I had my sea legs [laughter]. And then I didn’t quite have them after breakfast one morning. It was a miserable crossing. Elsie Hornbacher: [26:51] Uh, was this just rough weather or was it… Betty Lieby: It was rough. Rough seas. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: It was a liber-, liberty ship is not as, uh, seaworthy as… Elsie Hornbacher: It’s… Betty Lieby: …some of them. It’s kind of a round… Elsie Hornbacher: That’s right. Betty Lieby: …bottom, uh, like a [cork 27:00] out there, and it was… Elsie Hornbacher: There’s quite a difference in traveling in ships. Betty Lieby: Indeed. Elsie Hornbacher: Because I was, um, uh, in, uh, one of the better ships, and in the eye of a typhoon, we were adrift… Betty Lieby: Oh my. Elsie Hornbacher: …at sea for two, two days, and, uh, fortunately, uh, I was, uh, I, I wasn’t seasick. Betty Lieby: See? Elsie Hornbacher: But, uh, going o-, over another time to Europe, uh, we were in a smaller ship, uh, which rocked and rolled on the Atlantic, and I was icky all during the passage. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Well, on the crossing. The convoy of 14 days, we zigged and we zagged, uh, there were girls who never got out of the bunk. And we were, it was the smoothest crossing you can imagine. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: So some people just the slightest motion is, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: That’s right. Betty Lieby: …upsetting to them. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: I flew back from, uh, Ireland on the Aer Lingus line. Elsie Hornbacher: [It was 27:53]… Betty Lieby: Everyone on that, uh, plane was sea-, was sick. Airsick, and I, I was, I wasn’t. Had we not landed when we did, with all the commotion around me, I think I might’ve joined them. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Um, but, uh, that was the roughest plane ride I ever had. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. The plane dived and… Betty Lieby: Well, it was, uh, a bouncing affair. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Mm-hm. And there were, had the air bags, and they were all being used. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: But, um, it was, uh, it was a nice airplane. It wasn’t as large as some of ours. Elsie Hornbacher: [28:25] Do you remember the name of the medication we could take to prevent seasi-, sickness back then? Betty Lieby: No, because I never had to… Elsie Hornbacher: I can’t think of it either. Betty Lieby: …uh, take it. Elsie Hornbacher: I took some along and as I remember, I took one one time. Betty Lieby: Did you? Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: I’ve never had to, knock on wood, had, had to take them. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Uh, but, uh, but as I say, the best, uh, it was a marvelous, uh, uh, year and a half that I served and I, uh, uh, I met some lovely people, and, uh, some not so lovely [laughter], but I did meet, mostly were lovely people, and it was an experience, and I know the boys, I, I have letters from the boys that loved our club. Loved the service that we rendered, and they, uh, uh, when [Marian Carol 29:08] came as club director, that really put that club on the map. The boys loved that club. She just went of-, out of her way to, to help and do and serve and that was why we were there. Elsie Hornbacher: [29:20] Now your, uh, boys were roughly between the age of 18 and 30 probably? Betty Lieby: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Yes. Yes, they were. I do know that if, if the war had been on our ground and the foreign boys were serving over here, they wouldn’t have acted any differently than our boys, I’m sure. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Boys will be boys. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, and people are the same all over the world. Betty Lieby: Yes, they are [throat clearing]. Yes, they are. Elsie Hornbacher: I know many people thought, wow, you’re going overseas, uh, uh, people will be doing things over there that they don’t do home, uh, this is not true. Betty Lieby: No, that is not true. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, one’s behavior is pretty well established regardless of where you are and you have your own limits. Betty Lieby: Absolutely. Elsie Hornbacher: And you can’t, I mean, even back home, if a person suffers, uh, uh, uh, unusual emotional turmoil, they may take a, they may drink for a mild period of time and, uh, then give it up. Betty Lieby: That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, the permanency of, uh, a, irrational behavior is usually short. Betty Lieby: I think so. And of course under the stressful situation. Elsie Hornbacher: [Duration 30:27] Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: During a war, uh, they’re [throat clearing], they’re going to, uh, do things to excess. Elsie Hornbacher: Yes. Betty Lieby: Uh, their freedom will be expressed, uh, uh, in that manner. They’ll be, do things that they wouldn’t do, uh, in peaceful times. Elsie Hornbacher: That’s for sure. Betty Lieby: Maybe they weren’t going to be around the next day. Who knows? I have, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Overseas, I don’t think they cover as much for their behavior as they do home. Betty Lieby: No. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, at home, they’re more sneaky about it. Betty Lieby: That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: But overseas, uh, they don’t give a darn [chuckle] who knows… Betty Lieby: They certainly don’t. Elsie Hornbacher: …what they do [laughter] because, uh, they’re not going to see them, uh, six months from now. Betty Lieby: Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: This is the only difference, it’s, uh… Betty Lieby: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Well, there were a lot of episodes, little interesting, wonderful episodes, and, uh, interesting episodes but then, uh, I think I’ve covered pretty much, uh, the… Elsie Hornbacher: [31:17] Uh, fraternization was discouraged at this time, though. Did you have much contact with the Germans? Betty Lieby: No, I really did not except in the, uh, uh, where I was billeted and on my travels, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …in, uh, on occasion and, um, but I did not. Uh, I did not have much contact. Consequently, I did not, uh, really pick up the language much. I didn’t have occasion to use it that much. I had more occasion to use it when I went back five or six [inaudible 31:45]. Elsie Hornbacher: [31:48] Uh, you went to Dachau, Betty, uh… Betty Lieby: Uh, yes, I did. Uh, of course it was, uh, y’know, the war ended, uh, just after, y’know, before I got into Germany, so it was, uh, it was so sad and so discouraging, uh, to go in there, uh, the, the blood marks up on the wall where the bodies had been piled, and, uh, uh, and the, and the chambers and all. It was, it was quite an experience. Elsie Hornbacher: Y’know, Betty, I have asked many a German about Dachau, and they said they didn’t know it existed. I’m not… Betty Lieby: A lot of them did not. Elsie Hornbacher: …I have, I, I couldn’t talk to a German or an Austrian who recognized the fact that this was taking place, and then I began to wonder. Uh, around Lansing, I’m sure there’s a slaughterhouse. I would have no concept of where it is or that there even was one. Betty Lieby: Uh-uh. They did not know it existed, that’s for sure, anyone that I talked with didn’t know. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, this was common then… Betty Lieby: Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: …for every person I have talked to. Betty Lieby: Right. Right. And, uh, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: However, they should… Betty Lieby: …there were other places. Elsie Hornbacher: …have known that the Jewish people were disappearing. Betty Lieby: Absolutely. By the thousands. It was, uh, and Dachau was just one of many places. Elsie Hornbacher: Yes, it was one of about four or five, wasn’t it? Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: And it wasn’t the worst one. Elsie Hornbacher: I see. Betty Lieby: So it was, uh, so s-, so awful to, uh, to see that. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And know that that went on. But like you said, a lot of them did not know it was going on. Elsie Hornbacher: Well, we didn’t know what went on in… Betty Lieby: No. Elsie Hornbacher: …the war either, let’s face it. Betty Lieby: No. Elsie Hornbacher: I mean, on the, uh, individual basis. Betty Lieby: Like I s-, uh, when we first went into Germany, I mentioned the wire cutters on the Jeeps. Y’know, some of our men had been decapitated. They’d string a wire across the road. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, I see. Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: A [thin 33:47] wire and they’d be going along in a Jeep. Well, that would just cut their head off. Elsie Hornbacher: Ooh. Betty Lieby: And it wasn’t until, y’know, for several months before that was re-, they were removed. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Uh, we had, um, now the Autobahn, oh, how many times I went on the Autobahn. Uh, that was quite a road. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [34:11] That was as good as any highway we had in the United States at that time. Betty Lieby: Absolutely. I’ll never forget the feeling I had one day on the Autobahn. It was raining and I passed a clearing on the right-hand side. I had a driver, and I was sitting in the Jeep coming back from Munich… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …Munchen, and there was a, a German plane with a tail up in the air with a swastika on the tail… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …that had crashed in that clearing and it was raining and it was so, uh, it brought everything right there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: The war, and that’s it. There’s the end right there in that field. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And, um, that was a dismal, miserable day, and, um, a lot of my trips were, uh, by a motorcar, y’know, going into the, um, various cities in Germany to recruit American, uh, nurses, and, uh, people to work in a civilian capacity for the 53rd Quartermaster. Uh, [Marian Carol 35:14] remained over longer than I. Uh, my mother was ill, and that’s why I came home when I did. So off I went to Bremerhaven and, uh, uh, oddly enough I came home on a bride ship [chuckle] out of Bremerhaven and, uh, I was down in the, uh, lower decks and the brides were up on the top. It was the… Elsie Hornbacher: [35:34] Was this in the wintertime that you came home? Betty Lieby: Uh, yes, it was the George W.-, no, no, it was, uh, it was in the fall. Elsie Hornbacher: Fall. Betty Lieby: George W. Goethals, uh, was the liberty ship. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: It was the roughest crossing you can imagine. But having, uh, but in my youth, uh, being raised in Detroit and we had a boat, a cruiser, and I was used to rough water. There, two of us ate in the dining room. We would have breakf-, just two of us on that whole ship. Everyone was sick. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Ooh. Betty Lieby: It was really, I, I was in a, had a lower bunk, and we were three high, and I exchanged with a girl so that I wouldn’t get… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …and w-, so few of us took showers, you would just bounced all over the place. Elsie Hornbacher: Hm. [36:21] Was it a big ship or a littler one? Betty Lieby: It was, uh, smaller, liber-, liberty ship… Elsie Hornbacher: That’s what I would think because the… Betty Lieby: …has more of a round bottom-type of ship, and it just, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: The bigger ships are, the… Betty Lieby: Oh, they’re far better. Elsie Hornbacher: …are, uh… Betty Lieby: However, on the crossing going over, which was fairly smooth, uh, we had some girls who were seasick. They’re just…just the listing, slight listing even, uh, we had the blackouts and all. Elsie Hornbacher: I never had had any problem with seasickness in, uh, the Pacific. I did, uh, I, I was icky, though, most of the time, uh, going across the Atlantic by ship. Betty Lieby: Were you? Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Coming back from Ireland, Marian had, uh, returned before I did. I w-, I was out at the Salt, uh, hill Hotel in Monkstown on the outskirts. I stayed a little longer. And, uh, when I flew back on Aer Lingus, uh, prior to boarding the plane, there was an, uh, an Irishman said could you, would you like to join me for a beer, y’know, and I said, uh, and I had just eaten a candy bar, and he was a friendly, nice gentleman, and I, I had a beer with him, so we, uh, boarded the plane and oh, what a rough, uh, uh, flight that was. It was a single seater type, y’know… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …uh, one on each side. He sat across the aisle from me. I think everyone on the plane was ill on that plane. Uh, I was writing, and I asked him for a pen, and he, he just had an awful time, he was groping for that pen, he was so ill. Uh, when we, if we hadn’t landed when we did, I would’ve joined them. But he had used the phone booth before, prior to my using it. I had to back out of it, it was so, the stench. I had to call for my transportation, but it was, we, I flew back into Liverpool. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Uh, the very interesting part of my year and a half overseas was that I spent New Year’s Eve in Paris, Christmas in Switzerland, and Easter in Holland. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, wonderful. Betty Lieby: I was on a, uh, on a business trip to, uh, Rotterdam, and I took the train up through Harlem, and tulips as far as you can see on either side. And, uh, one thing they do not do in Holland, and I quickly learned that, you do not make a corsage there. You do not cut those flowers and make a corsage. They frown on that. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh. Betty Lieby: I learned that. Um, but the, um, in the, uh, time I was in England, I picked up, uh, you pick up a lot of the, uh, accent and of course in the midlands, the, uh, the cockney accent is, uh, top, tolo, todoch… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …very, uh, a very difficult to understand at times, y’know. And, uh, but you’re bound to pick it up, and, uh, when I first checked in – their, their terminology, uh, when I first, uh, signed in at the hotel, the man at the desk, uh, uh, said to me, uh, what time shall I knock you up in the morning? [laughter] And that was, uh, rather surprising. Elsie Hornbacher: [39:33] What time shall they what? Betty Lieby: What time shall I knock you up in the morning. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, knock you up in the morning [laughter]. Betty Lieby: And that, uh, over here, is, uh, something entirely different [laughter]. The expression on my face, uh, changed his terminology there. He…[laughter] um, but you… Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, that’s great. Betty Lieby: …you learn a lot of their, uh, and of course the elevator is a lift and y’know there’s so many things they say a little differently than we do, and, um, uh, I do know that, uh, the, some of the British weren’t too happy with our Americans overseas. I was in, uh, London, uh, and went into a little book shop and two GIs had just left the shop. They didn’t see me and my Red Cross uniform looking at some books in the corner, and the woman said, I’ll be so terribly glad when these Americans leave [laughter]. And I stepped around the corner and I said, but aren’t you so happy that we helped you. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And that was, uh, uh, I do believe that any, if the war had been fought on our land and we had a bunch of foreign soldiers over here who didn’t know whether they were going to live another day… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …their actions wouldn’t be any different than our boys’ actions were over there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: They were, uh, uh, it takes all types, uh, most places. Some were out of line, of course, but, uh, uh, basically, I thought we, uh, we had some fine young men over there. I, I was, uh, I have a lot of letters from them that were thanking us for what we did for them for the, in the club. I loaned them money, I never got a, had it returned, y’know, they were shipped out, and, um, uh, I did have a funny experience there, though, in the club, and the only bad experience, I might say, uh, that disappointed me with, uh, with a soldier. Uh, I was in my office in the club and, uh, a little fellow came in, and it was right after they had been in Paris and they, and they shaved the heads of some of the women and stole their clothes, uh, and, um, he said, I have a mink coat that I would like you to have. I said you’re kidding. He said, now I, I can rent an apartment over here. I said you can, can you? I said what are you implying? He said, well, I’d like you to have the coat. I said with what, uh, something goes along with the coat, isn’t there? And, uh, that was what he was implying. I said, there are a lot of girls that hang around this club around the corner there, go and give that coat to one of them. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: Very…that was very insulting, very bad. Elsie Hornbacher: Yes, I could understand that. Betty Lieby: That was the only experience along that line that I had other than the knocking on the door. Elsie Hornbacher: [42:33] Now you mentioned the reaction of the Englishmen, uh, toward the Americans. Did you have, uh, any outward disapproval of the Americans being in Germany? Betty Lieby: Uh, no. I, uh, I did not, uh, personally. I, as I said, my association there in Germany was mostly with the Americans… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …other than where I was living. Elsie Hornbacher: Yeah, I can understand [in this era 42:56]. Betty Lieby: Y’know, we weren’t, there was no reason much to have the association. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, the, um, in Austria, of course Trieste, uh, fell while I was there… Betty Lieby: Mm-hm. Elsie Hornbacher: …and, uh, the Russians would spit at us. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Now when I was at the Grand Hotel, uh, Connie and I were there with the officers had taken us in so… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …that we could see, uh, uh, it was quite a privilege to be in there. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: There were some Russians at the next table. I could see the pajama bottom sticking out of the pant leg of the one. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: He came over and asked Connie to dance. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: She had no desire to dance with him, and she refused, and they were almost… Elsie Hornbacher: [43:39] Was this in Germany? Betty Lieby: …yes, it was in Germany. Elsie Hornbacher: This would be a terribly insult. Uh… Betty Lieby: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: I never realized that the, in, the social strata in Germany is just the reverse of ours. Betty Lieby: Well, this was a Russian. A Russian asked her to dance. Elsie Hornbacher: Oh, yes. But in Germany… Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: In Germany, if you refuse to, you go to a place to have fun. Betty Lieby: Yes. Elsie Hornbacher: And if you don’t dance with those people who ask you, I experienced that. If you don’t dance with the people who are there, you are nothing but a snob. Betty Lieby: Yes, I imagine. Elsie Hornbacher: Now, in, uh, in their work situation, uh, there’s a defin-, definite er-, hierarchy, a, and, um, uh, I mean, the superiority right down the line. Y-, for example, a lower class worker would not have a better car than their superior. Uh, but, uh, when you go out to have fun, you are expected, I mean, if you go there to dance, you’re to dance with whoever asks you to dance. Betty Lieby: Mm-hm. Mm-hm. In this case, when she refused, uh, they, the, he didn’t like it. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And we got up and we left, all of us. Elsie Hornbacher: I would say you would have to. Betty Lieby: We, we, we had to in order to, uh, avoid a… Elsie Hornbacher: Yes. Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …a little problem. Elsie Hornbacher: Now in America, it’s quite the reverse. Betty Lieby: Yeah, absolutely. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: Absolutely. Um, but it… Elsie Hornbacher: In our social life we have, uh, stratifications. Betty Lieby: That’s right. That’s right. Elsie Hornbacher: And we maintain them, too. Betty Lieby: Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Um, but it, um, there wasn’t any problem because we avoided it. Elsie Hornbacher: You avoi-, you left. Betty Lieby: We just, we left the, uh, the Grand Hotel. Elsie Hornbacher: Yes, you would have to. Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: When I went back two or three years ago and drove at Nuremberg, they paid the Germans to build as it had been before the war, and it was just wall to wall people and, and the, and it looked like old Germany, really… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …in Nuremberg as I drove along. I couldn’t, as, when I was driving, pick out that palace of justice where I had been [chuckle]. I was driving. I couldn’t take my eyes off the road. Uh, and, uh, I couldn’t, uh, couldn’t pick out the Grand Hotel either, uh, uh, from there. But, uh, that was an interesting, uh, driving through there at that time. Elsie Hornbacher: [45:59] Betty, what was your reaction when you came back to the States? Betty Lieby: Well, it was, it was exciting to see the Statue of Liberty and, uh, and all, I, I, and on, aboard the ship, y’know, and talking with the girls, the, the, who had been Red Cross or in my capacity there as the civilian capacity, they, they all had such a wonderful experience, and we were all, but all thrilled to be coming home to our good old United States. And, uh, spent, uh, a couple nights in New York, um, had some things stolen out of my room [chuckle]. In, in New York, isn’t that fine, nice welcome. First theft. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [46:38] Was that the first theft you had experienced in several years. Betty Lieby: First, first, that’s right. That’s right. And, uh, and then on, on home. But when I got back, mother having gone to Saint Charles, Michigan where you blink your eyes and you’re out of it, uh, one of the gals who came back with me, she said, y’know, I’m not going to live in my little place where I was. She said, let’s, uh, we knew friends in Boston, some of the girls were going back there, and I had never been to Denver, and we flipped a coin… Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: …as to whether we’d go to Denver or Boston. Ended up in Boston. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. [47:16] Uh, did you have any, uh, problems adjusting yourself back to stateside, uh, civilian life after having been with the army a year and a half or… Betty Lieby: Uh, well, of course each day was exciting and, uh… Elsie Hornbacher: [47:33] Did you accept your friends and did your friends accept you? Betty Lieby: Oh, yes, oh, yes. There was no problem there. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh, of course, I came to Lansing where I didn’t know anyone. Betty Lieby: Oh, yes. Elsie Hornbacher: But I think most of the girls who I have interviewed, uh, said they found it a little difficult because, uh, when they talked of their experiences, other people, uh, the, they felt alone. Betty Lieby: Yes, um, I think there’s a lot in that. Elsie Hornbacher: Uh-huh. Betty Lieby: Um, people aren’t interested in… Elsie Hornbacher: No. Betty Lieby: …in what you, all the wonderful… Elsie Hornbacher: They aren’t interested in what we did. Betty Lieby: …in what we did or offered or served or, uh, th-, they could care less. Elsie Hornbacher: I, I [understand 48:13]. Betty Lieby: So that’s why it’s so, uh, the Women’s Overseas Service League is, it’s… Elsie Hornbacher: It’s a bond. Betty Lieby: It’s a bond. And it’s, it’s so nice. And, um, uh, I certainly have no regrets ever having gone over there because I know I rendered a service. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And I, and, uh, I have, uh, letters to that effect. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: And it was, it was an education. Elsie Hornbacher: Mm-hm. Betty Lieby: An absolute education. Elsie Hornbacher: Well, thank you, Betty. [48:42] Are you, do you have any more to tell us? Betty Lieby: That, that is, no, I, I think not. Elsie Hornbacher: We are very happy… Betty Lieby: There’re a lot of experiences, but… Elsie Hornbacher: …to listen if you do. Betty Lieby: No, uh, I think that will be fine. /jw